Name:Panluna •
Title: 2012 •
Date posted: 06/25/07 14:55
Q: Have you seen the program titled 2012 prophecy:end of days--(the title is some where along this line)?It's in the Decoding The Past series shown on the History channel.Over the past 4000 years in recorded history the end of the world as we know it has been prophiciesed by several seers and now has a rational scientific explanation for our earth changes and the black hole we are getting closer to..The earth makes a 25,8oo year journey through our solar system and each time it is completed there is a major transformation on our planet's surface.Other than evidence uncovered by geological reports there is no written record of the results created by the last cycle.If you get a chance to watch this one it will make you want to enjoy each day as it comes.Fortunately the series of events will occur over a period of time instead of on one day:December 21,2012. So mark your calendars.This may be the big one! Hope I'm around to see what will happen--it will certainly be interesting.
Prophecies are from:the Book Of Revelations,Merlin,Mother Shipton,The Sybilline prophecies,several Native American tribes and the Mayan calendar among others.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 06/25/07 15:06
A: The title for the program is DOOMSDAY 2012:end of days. I have it on order.Well,to be forwarned is to be fore armed.I would rather know in advance with a rational explanation what my future holds.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 06/25/07 16:30
A: In case you are interested the program will be retelevised on July 5th,at 8p.m. and July 6th at 12midnight on the History Channel.And if these prophecies come true then I would rather live my last days on this world celebrating Peace on Earth.Look for the Christos( the Inner-spirit-light.) within.
May our remaining days be filed with bright blessings and positive thoughts.
Panluna
Name:JMD •
Date: 06/26/07 1:08
A: Panluna - Thanks for all the info! I've read some Mayan stuff about 2012 - I'll look up some of my files, and post some of it here, if/when I find them. I don't get the History channel, so can't watch the show.
I wonder though, is it about the end of days? Or could it be about something else? A major spiritual awakening, in a sense? Just thoughts...
JMD
Name:Panluna •
Date: 06/26/07 2:20
A: JMD,
The program is about the end of our world as we know it predicted by people who have lived in different cultures the past 4000 years.It gives a very clear explanation about the I-Ching and the Mayan Calendar and other prophets but most importantly is the scientific explanation for where our planet is going.It's on DVD maybe you can rent it.It's a little frieghtening but I can deal with something as long as I know what's headed my way.The hints from different predictors indicate December 21,2012 as the beginning of very major earth changes and upheavels.If I qualified for the space program I would like to watch it from above.Well five years can bring many changes and I'll be in my 60's or out on a permanent astral-flight getting lost in space.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 06/26/07 13:52
A: Going fishing for the truth which is out there some where.Back in several weeks.Happy 4th of July and good luck on 7/7/07 a lucky day for all.I can't wait to get out of here!
Name:CanuckChick •
Date: 06/26/07 14:58
A: I'll miss you Panluna! Safe journey.
CC
Name:Panluna •
Date: 08/17/07 17:05
A: When I gave this some thought I was wondering how the Mayans recieved the facts they based their prophecy on.Could it be that the sky-gods from outer-space gave their priests the information in telepathethic dreams and they worked out their calendar?And was it fate that saved enough material from the destruction by the Spaniards--God-fearing souls were they-- so that we can gain this knowledge?
Metaphysics is an advance form of Shamanism--the oldest religion practised by humankind when our ancestors were closer to nature and our souls connected to the music of the spheres -- without the clutter of mental dogma that the more "advanced" organised religions believe and preach.Or is everything in prophecy based on Ancient Wisdom and are the pieces of the puzzle finally going to fit and complete the picture?
Can truth and science lead this periled planet to a peaceful end?
Name:Panluna •
Date: 08/17/07 20:43
A: Anything that you might want to learn about Metaphysics can be found on Crystalinks.com.There are other related websites that study Aristotle and Christian Metaphysics as well.
Name:Anchorite •
Date: 08/22/07 21:36
A: Not addressable.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 08/23/07 15:27
A: Anchorite,
True we can't do anything about it but wait for and watch the big event and live each day one at a time.Kind of reminds me of PRINCE'S song --party like it's 1999.
Name:Anchorite •
Date: 09/19/07 16:55
A: Hi Panluna,
I am starting to get really suspicious of this whole Lost Tomb business. I found a video by Bill Schnoebelen called "The Light Behind Freemasons". He gives a lot of details about their signs symbols etc. That includes a throat cutting gesture.
The video is from 1998 as best I can determine. You can see Bill is younger than today. He says the Freemasons were planning to "find" Jesus's bones somehow!
I did a bunch of surfing to try to connect it all up.
Simcha has a show called The Naked Archeologist. The channels involved are VisionTV and The Discovery Channel.
VisionTV has a producer called Alberta Nokes. She is connected to two documentaries having to do with Freemasons. I haven't seen them but they appear to be apologetic. One of them is for sale by a Lodge in Manitoba. One of these videos came out around same time as Lost Tomb.
The connection go on and on.
James Cameron's Titanic poster suggests a pyramid with steps. His picture on Wikipedia shows him with hand to throat. And what does the Titanic really have to do with all that King-of-the-world yelling?
VisionTV logo looks like an eye.
Discovery Channel is connected to some foundation named after James Madison (suspected Mason) that heavily funds The Library of Congress.
For those of you interested in the possible power and extent of Freemasons have a look at the 2002 annual report of a Turkish bank called OYAK. The cover explicitly refers to the evil eye.
And- OYAK used to be called SumerBank, the financial engine behind modern Turkey.
Some say the Masons go all the way back to Sumer.
Ain't the Internet a gas!
Anchorite
Name:roy •
Date: 09/19/07 21:47
A: Anchorite
There is no direct corrolation of evil eye bead and masons. (The bead is a glass piece that is thought superstitiously to protect from harm) . It is just a coincidence decorative advertising element they have used.
Oyakbank is not predecessor of Sumerbank or vice versa, they are totally different entities. Both banks have been privatized recently. Oyakbank is a subsidiary of military funds plus some private, and fairly large holding company. Bank is sold to a foreign bank.
I didnt see any relation of freemasons which may well be at the ruling of any company in turkey . You make such expression that through Sumerbank being a power behind modern turkey, and as freemasons from Sumer age, leading us to a thought that freemasons are behind modern turkey!!!
There is only one major power behind modern Turkey, it is its great, brave people who are ready to fight to death if deemed necessary to keep its freedom.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 09/20/07 15:01
A: Anchorite,
I love the internet.I enjoy cyberspace travel and info at my fingertips.I could spend all day looking something up and then go from topic to topic and amuse myself with games.Retirement is great!!!!
Did you know that Mother Shipton predicted the internet many centuries ago?
Name:Panluna •
Date: 09/20/07 15:07
A: Roy,
I have a hand with an eye in the center of it.it's a piece of jewelry called the Hand of Fatima.There is a book titled THE EVIL EYE by Frederick Elworthy that completely covers the history of the Eye.
Name:Anchorite •
Date: 09/21/07 5:12
A: Hi Roy,
Wikipedia has an entry on Sumerbank that starts like this:
Sümerbank was a Turkish bank and industrial holding company. On 11 January 2002, Oyak Bank acquired Sümerbank and the combined bank is now known under the Oyak Bank name.[1]
I was careful to corroborate every fact I advanced. I was also careful not to infer anything from them. I leave that up to you!
Perhaps the pyramid and eye installed on the American dollar in 1933 under Roosevelte (a Mason) is not convincing?
Panluna, Wikipedia suggests Shipton was a hoax.
There's a poem there that reminds me of Lizzie Borden.
Anyway, the reason I posted all this stuff is because it was from David Icke that I heard of 2012. He is a fun and interesting speaker, and he does go into Masons. Anyone interested in 2012 might as well start with David.
Anchorite
Name:Panluna •
Date: 09/21/07 16:48
A: Anchorite,
i know thet say Mother Shipton never existed but the grain of truth has to start somewhere.There is a website devoted to her place and predictions.Her cave is somewhere in the British isles.You can find it on Crystallinks.com
Name:Anchorite •
Date: 09/21/07 20:29
A: Hi Panluna,
I went to crystalinks.com. At the very bottom it says:
"It is now generally acknowledged that Mother Shipton was largely a myth, and that many of her prophecies were composed by others after her death,..."
Concerning the Titanic poster. The number of posts running up the side is 13. Same as the number of steps on the Great Seal on the Dollar.
I really don't know why these corporate and/or Hollywood types are so in-your-face with the occult symbolism.
It seems to be all there is on TV. Except for ads where men are made to look like fools. Notice these objects of ridicule are never from the leather tattoo self mutilating class. Nope, the dunces are in plaid shirts and have innocent good-natured expressions. If I were paranoid I'd think they were trying to make evil look cool.
When the troopers come knocking it won't be in plaid.
Anchorite
Name:Panluna •
Date: 09/21/07 22:35
A: Anchorite,
I think there is a rise in the interest with the occult because it has been a Tabooed subject for so long and now intelligent people are taking a closer look at it's contribution.I personally think that the word MABUS in Nostradamous's predictions might be a mispelling of MAGUS.My reasoning has to do with the letter printing formations.In older works the letter S always looked like an f and other letter printing differences before the alphabet became standardised.Also he could have known that there would be an increase in the interest in the occult matters when people became more broadminded.I really wouldn't be too worried about the symbolism because it's always been present.It isn't an omen.
Name:Anchorite •
Date: 09/22/07 3:11
A: Well, as far as I can determine, there are 3 ways to persuade: Love, Logic, or Fear. The occult ain't the first two.
Perhaps 2012 will deliver a kind of fascination. Apparently there is a Chinese curse "May you live in interesting times".
Myself, I am not a strong person. I need sweet people and cooperation. The description of 2012 you provide is pretty much doom. But at least I did see it coming.
Anchorite
Name:roy •
Date: 09/22/07 14:05
A: Panluna Anchorite,
As always I am surprised the amount of knowledge you "foreigners" got about supposedly authentic items of my culture. The evil eye beads have been widely used and adored by every women in our society. They use them for ornaments, protection from bad effect of eye contact, they put them to anything which is valuable for them. Namely babies, girlish necklaces, cars, homes, even buildings entrance. However they dont have much information about which kind of power it has. It is mostly superstitious to me. I object the carrying of it as it may falsely be believed that it has equal power of protection as God has. It may well be understood as idolatry. We Muslims believe in "bad eye affect"= Nazar from envious watcher. But to ask help from someone or something other than God is idolatry.
Masonry is something else, I saw the same eye figure on Saudi police force emblem, who are definitely not mason. We got many alleged mason in here but until recently they were hidden. They got some scandalous financial events in their clubs too as other might have.
Governmental rulings have made them open functioning necessary. They are a club operate under official name in istanbul.
It was interesting all jews, Christians, Masons, Notrdamus believers, Zacharia Sitchin UFO stories expects something to happen in 2012. Let it be we have time to rest till then. American Government controlled NASA has been spending great amount of time and money to avert a possible sky object hit to the earth. it is related to 2012 story too. Wasting outright the taxpayers revenues on false religious teachings!
Name:Panluna •
Date: 09/22/07 15:20
A: OK! You two!
If you watch a program on the History Channel called THE UNIVERSE the episode about SATURN called Lord Of The Rings ends with a very hopeful messege.In 2013 NASA is going to sending a new space probe capable of exploring distant galaxies zillions of light years away from us.If the NASA people believe that we will continue well after 2012 and predictions go well pass the 2012 date then I believe we have more than a slight glimmer of hope that life on this planet will continue.How we live is up to all of us.
Roy,
I have several 'protection' amulets in my possesion.Sometimes it helps to have a physical representation of an abstract and invisible concept.It's a psychological need to fullfill something that could be taken in doubt if there wasn't a visual presence.I don't think for a second that my silver star(pentacle) protects me from harm but my Psyche can and the star is a visible reminder of it's (the Psyche's) potential.It's like going to the Mosque to pray to Allah.That building reminds you that Allah is there for you.I have inner strength too and I've said that if I ever became impoverished again I would still have my most valuable possession--MYSELF in body,mind and especially Spirit.....and I know how to panhandle and read fortunes.(HA HA HA )
Do you guys really think the world is going to end in 2012? And another question---did Quazitquatal(Sp?) who is another form of Lucifer--The Peacock Angel-- teach the Mayans their calendar?How did the Mayans get their data to base their calculations when the only way they could see the night sky was with the naked eye.It's ashame the Spanish Conquiscadors (Sp?) ruined their civilazation.
Name:roy •
Date: 09/22/07 22:40
A: There I found a video for 2012 believing lady. She has right to worry but for a wrong reason.
Great information! I love to get the inside picture. What a treat! By the way I sincerely love both Jesus and "The Nameless One".
I totally agree the evil eye amulet is a cultural thing kicking around since who knows when, but I guess what I was insinuating is that the OYAK people took it up to promote their own evil eye. I may have been hasty.
Panluna,
My personal opinion concerning 2012 is that I haven't seen anything to pinpoint disaster on that date. But the way disasters and government micro-management is accelerating these days I expect great calamities sooner than that.
A concise way of putting it would be: "The Nazis are back". Perhaps you might want to look at how Prescott Bush bankrolled Hitler via the Freemason organization Brown Brothers and Harriman.
Happy camping!
Anchorite
Name:Panluna •
Date: 09/23/07 15:31
A: Anchorite
Enjoy Mabon--first day of Autumn filled with bright blessings.I still have a home..but we do go off camping about three times a year.We had Oktoberfest plans but they fell through.So I'm celebrating at home.
Honestly do you really think those horrid Nazis are back?.--I hope not !!!!
Maybe they'll cancel out Bin Laden,the Taliban and Al-Quada.Which is the lesser of the two evils?
Superstitions have been around just as long as the Beginning and the End have been part of human cultures.There is some truth to their application and studies over the centuries resulting in almost 100% accuracies in many of them.
Who isn't afraid of Friday the 13th or a black cat crossing one's path?
How about the Wooly Bear prognasticator?It's a caterpiller which appears in the late summer.If it's coat is real thick then it wil be a cold winter.if it's thin then it will be mild.If the color is solid then winter weather will stay the same.If it's color is white from nose to tail then it will be a long cold winter.When encountering one let it go about it's business because if you kill it it brings bad luck.Besides it morphs into a beautiful butterfly in the Spring--representing hope.I know it's not scientific but it's accurate.
Everyone knows the famous ground hog weather predictor.There is another one.What ever the weather is January 25th (Disting Moon)will be repeated through the summer season.We had everything from wind,sunshine,hail,snow,thunder and lightenening and it went from a freeze to a fast rising temperature on that day this past year and Summer 2007 never really appeared. And we even had hail one day and the snow level on the mountains was at a lower elevation. Usually it's hot and dry during the Summer months.It could be a result of all the volcanoes erupting or the Earths continuous tilt.Well I haven't seen my annual Wooly Bear prognosticater yet so I can't say what Winter will be like in our area.I think I'll go outside and look for it today while I sprinkle garlic powder around my house--there's a Vampire loose in the area. (HA HA HA)
Enjoy the first day of Fall and the rest of the season with bright blessings and peace.
Name:sam •
Date: 09/23/07 21:50
A: Hi everyone,
I Just read this news, and I thought to bring it to you, because when there are leaders like GB and the many others like him, then the THE END OF THE WORLD CAN BE IN 2012 OR IN ANY TIME SOONER.
Here the news:
"The cover article on the latest issue of Maclean's magazine, titled "How Bush Became the New Saddam,'' is stirring up controversy south of the border.
Bush is depicted on the cover dressed as Saddam Hussein, complete with a moustache, beret and military attire.
Freelance journalist Patrick Graham, who wrote the story, said the idea came from a comment made to him during a recent trip to Iraq.
"An Iraqi friend of mine was laughing, saying, 'The Americans are the new Baathists in Iraq'," Graham told CTV's Question Period on Sunday, referring to the party once ruled by Hussein.
"(His) one-sided portrayal of Iraq made the New York Times' coverage look fair and balanced.''
Still, Suneel Khanna, communications director for Maclean's, told ABC News that the magazine has not received any complaints from its 10,000 American subscribers.
"What I realized after I got there (the second time) was that the Americans had really switched sides and that they were carrying out the old Baathist strategy in Iraq and that's one of the reasons why the insurgents and a lot of Sunni Iraqis had switched sides."
Graham said he discovered that the surge strategy was essentially the Saddam strategy -- which was to contain the Kurds, confront the Shia using tribal Sunnis, and to confront Iran.
"They basically created a home grown insurgency in Anbar, which they've now won over, and now they're not admitting to themselves what they're doing -- which is taking up where Saddam left off," said Graham.
He said it's important that the U.S. admit who their new allies are and understand the implications of their strategies or they will "screw up again."
God save us.
God bless you.
Name:Anchorite •
Date: 09/23/07 23:43
A: Panluna, Sam,
Thank you for your thoughtful replies. I am honored.
I have a poem about the Fall (in French). It's at haikuzeus.blogspot.com .
The Nazis were financed via Prescott Bush. The Bushes ain't gone. The Left/Right conflict has been fuelled by American money and technology ever since the creation of that paradigm.
Chaos works in their favor. How many times have you asked yourself "Can they be that stupid?". For ex, firing the Baathists, releasing the Iraqi army people, or bypassing arms/ordnance caches.
Take New Orleans. They knew Katrina was coming. How could they cancel dike preparations a couple years before, and then when she hits, withhold aid for days until looting starts, THEN step in.
Chaos! Well, GET SMART. The old 60s show was warning us to concentrate on chaos and control. The Bush Team is not stupid, it is ARTFUL. It possesses centuries of experience that depends on our ignorance and that we should buy into their ideas and paradigms, which by now encompass nearly all intellectual life.
Example: "Survival of the fittest". Everyone thinks it is obvious. But who survives? The fittest. Who is fit? Those who survive. There is zero information in that statement. The real effect is to suggest that life is necessarily dog-eat-dog, and nice persons are suckers.
The more chaos the more they can step up control. Every time I see a TV ad that says "Break the rules" or "Just do it", I cringe because I can see a cop behind it who is saying, "Make my day" as he slowly taps his night stick, or Taser or whatever (now they have pain rays).
Signs and inferences. A valid sign is called a fact, useful inferences proceed from evidence. It is not about magic, it is an honest-to-goodness best attempt to explain.
Now Patrick Graham may or may not be right to claim that Bush and his friends are doing a Saddam. However, my thesis is wider than that: Bush Team doesn't NEED to win! They just need to BE THERE... indefinitely!
I said earlier the Freemasons are believed by some to have their roots in Sumer. Personally I have seen some evidence but not enough to be sure about it. But let it be a hypothesis for a moment ... Blackwater could be the Illuminati that actually feels it OWNS Bagdad body and soul. The rightful Ancient Kings returning! So shooting into traffic jams would be nothing. They would NEVER leave the 33rd parallel again!
The near future will tell. Surely by 2012.
Believe me I empathize if you feel depressed. But once you get used to these ideas, the 150-year-old veil will vanish. The Illuminati (Skull and Bones) could not have foreseen the Internet's speed and connect-the-dots-ability. WE THE PEOPLE will not stand for this outrage.
We ARE NOT naturally agressive. In the Pacific war most soldiers didn't shoot even while being shot at. I tear up just thinking of that beautiful nobility. But 25 years of Terminator movies and video games has taken care of THAT instinct. A great moment in the History of Callousness was 1982, when Magnum P.I. executed that defenseless Russian.
PS Antony C. Sutton has a great primer called America's Secret Establishment. The whole book is available online for free.
Sincerely,
Uncle Anchy
Name:Panluna •
Date: 09/24/07 15:29
A: Hi Sam,
Sounds like a whole bunch of propaganda to me!!! How's your book coming along? I tried to contact you on the NG but my posts didn't seem to go through.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 09/24/07 16:48
A: Anchorite,
Hi I tried the blogspot you listed.Are you a muscian? With all the murkiness and confusion in the Middle East the only thing this administration can do is test the quicksand under the tightrope.I feel like sending President Bush a coffee mug that says "Damned if you do and damned if you don't" along with a heartfelt thank you note for leading our country through one of the most diffucult times in modern history--the past eight years--which has been much criticised.What will happen in our next elections will hold the fate of success or failure for Iraq.Yes I would like to see the war end but I would like to see Democracy and Freedom for the Iraqui people.And I would like to see them get back on their feet economically and live without fear from bullies like Bin Laden and Company. Our country has made many sacrifices to help the Iraqui people and our intentions have been misunderstood and overly criticised.Blackwater is a security guard company.My husband worked for one of those types of companies when he retired from a branch of the military.And believe me the job is just as stressful as being a cop in a big city.You never know what will happen when you approach someone.With all the carbombings and assassinations and abductions in Iraq and elsewhere anyone is suspect.Those people are literally on pins and needles.---that's an a expression for being on the edge of watchfullness.I would rather someone vigilant protected me then someone who is afraid to approach and check something suspicious out and then take the appropriate measures.Sometimes there is a misinterpretation of the situation but consider the risk factor.It's 50-50 all the time and one mistake could cost lives.It's the criminals who don't like the good guys and the innocent victims are the ones who ask "Where's a cop when you need one?"And are grateful for the help from these unsung heroes.I thank them for risking their lives everyday ...here.
That Prescott Bush business deal with the Nazis happened before anyone new about Hitler's Genocide program.I believe it took place before WW2 started.Even Hitler's brother defected to the U.S. with his family because he did not like Adolf Hitler's policies and invasions.
The Nazi Occult studies were just a field of interest and scientific studies to them.They were not practitioners.If they were then the first rule which is enforced by the Cosmos -Source would have to be followed: The Witches Rede: Do as you will .Harm no one.Believe me breaking this rule incurs the wrath of the Spirits and Angels and the punishment is three times as severe as the ill-will or crime.
As far as the importance of the EYE symbol is concerned.Shakespeare wrote:"The eye is the mirror of the soul." I'll add : On a daily basis and with meditation you can see the Universe,the Akasha and visit any dimension or worlds if you learn how to activate,trust and work with understanding and acceptance the knowledge percieved by the innerlight and the Third Eye.And Jesus said "If you have ears let them hear.If you have eyes let them see..."
There could be a connection with Summerian legends,Egypt ,India and the Eye .Who knows maybe it refferred to God's All-seeing Eye--everyone's God--known by many names and many faces.And I believe we will be guided safely through the events of 2012,2013,etc.The Universe isn't finished with toying with us yet.The human Illuminatti and the Spirit Illuminatti are two different entities with different modes of operation and agenda.The innerlght lasts infinitely longer than the shell it dwells in.God made us in His/Her image then creates,destroys and recycles.
Name:Anchorite •
Date: 09/26/07 17:56
A: Hi Panluna,
Thank you for checking out my poems. Not a musician, but sound and rhythm play a big part. Actually of anyone is having trouble making lyrics, I'm here!
"Pins and Needles", Blackwater has taken on an impossible job. If Iraq actually imposes restrictions, they may quit, since it would interfere too much with self-defense.
They would have to go to regular GI's and triple their number or something.
I agree most basic symbols such an eye, or a light, have double meanings. It's a built in mask.
I appreciate that the universe shows all sorts of cycles. But I wouldn't attach so much power to them such that they support exploitation and cruelty.
As for any crunch time, such as 2012, I think we can thank the President of Iran's patience for delaying any immediate conflict.
Anchorite
Name:Panluna •
Date: 09/26/07 23:13
A: Hi Anchorite,
People exploit cruelly.The Universe metes out the punishment as Karmic debt.Some people get soaked in the fall out and others get away with it--or do they?
I felt that the President of Iran's speech was judgemental and very anti-west way of living."His people don't practise:free speech,homosexuallity,human rights" etc. at least that's how it was translated and interpreted on the news.
The only way we will avoid WW3 is if all the nations agree to end all wars--and that ain't gonna happen! As far as Blackwater is concerned they'll make their own choices.It would be nice if everything would settle down in the Middle East and everyone would just get along with each other.I would love to visit that region and see the many archaeological sites and travel with out fear of terror-attacks.But their governments would have to apprehend the terrorists.Bin Laden should have quit when he became a hero of Afghanistan when he resisted the Soviets during the cold war instead of engaging in Taliban and Al Quada activities--which could be considered anarchistic.I kind of feel sorry for his niece who wants to be known for her music and not for her uncle's black sheep behavior.It's like being a relative of Adolf Hitler--they can never remove the stain from that reputation and live it down.Once it's in the history books it's all over and the tale repeats itself.
Well I hope the Iranian President clarified everything and lives up to the peace promise messege.I don't read or speak any other language but English so I'll have to take their word for it.I wonder if he enjoyed his trip to the U.S.
Name:Anchorite •
Date: 10/04/07 0:14
A: Dear Panluna (as you are dear to me indeed),
Being judgemental as such, is not a valid charge!
Ahmadinejad may or may not be anti-West but that doesn't inherently make him wrong.
His government does seem to act violently against those persons with tendencies counter to Islamic precepts, as reports would indicate. Unfortunately we have plenty of reason to distrust Main Stream Media.
We cherish our personal liberty, but who's to say totally natural persons don't embrace satanic rituals, etc. The greater good and triumph may need to dictate a large part of moral regulation.
Until we scientifically determine just what that is, we can't rule out that the control Iran is exercising upon its people is out of line.
A more mature philosophy is mandated. WAR is not an element inevitable. The negating flips of logic are merely deliberative.
As for archeology, if you have the opportunity, please consider an Hungarian or Finno-Ugric character to Sumer.
The Sumerians may have come from an area near the Black Sea (flooded) around the 5500's BC. They may have subsequently escaped Mesopotamia (around 1750's BC) and become the Khazars, and then perhaps the Ashkenazi around the 500's AD.
Attributing importance to 2012 may be a "cardial error". The mind is effective by means of FOCUS. The heart sets the goals. The two ally in order to bear down onto a meaningful resolution. 2012 may be a hit-or-miss artifact, a cardial manifestation of human psychology hoping beyond hope to resolve visceral terror.
Now, my dear Panluna, please to be relaxed. These matters are likely beyond retirement years. The young must needs chance an understanding, reap a benefit. I am patronizing you, but try to see that your responses show willful obfuscation.
Time polarizes persons into good and evil. It starts in mid-teens at the latest. Evil is superficial, plays games, is obsessed with cleverness, ego, advantage. Good concerns itself with root causes, intimacy, honesty, others, equity. Within a decade or two, each allegiance becomes blind to the other.
In fine, I recognize that Ahmadinejad helps run a likely repressive regime. But, a priori, his abstractions are mine. Recent America (up to about 60 years ago) did form a freedom but then, an accelerating decline.
Might that I latch onto Arab numerals, and hope Ahmadinejad enlightens. He won't clarify everything. He would betray. But as translated, 'tis a heart translating.
Marc Louis Hébert
Name:Panluna •
Date: 10/05/07 0:12
A: Anchorite,
I'm grateful that I live in a country with freedom of choice and that religion does not dictate every minute of my life.I can thank my parents for their liberating attitude and lessons.It's nice breathing the rarefied air of freedom.
Islam is a very strict religion with a strong controlling hold on it's followers.I know it's meant as social guidance for the Moslims as are all the other religious systems for their believers--after all without a sense of order everything would be chaotic and nothing would survive.
Blackwater is under investigation.Wonder what the out come will be.
Name:Anchorite •
Date: 10/27/07 2:23
A: Dear Earnest Panluna,
Yes,
The air that feeds us, bears all direction. Lets every minute share its lesson. Islam's an order hard to bear. But try to prove it is unfair!
You see, though freedom is the best, there's no reason manifest. A thousand million failed excess's but proves the dream American.
The joy and hope for humans, is all and but a pointing thence.
Misery and history and our success, should be enough to galvanize us.
Marc Louis Hebert
Name:Anchorite •
Date: 10/27/07 13:04
A: Sorry about my previous entry. I feel sheepish. It was all to say that freedom itself, as the absence of a constraint, is like a negative in that you cannot argue for it directly. Yet freedom is righteous since constraining systems fail historically.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 10/28/07 16:10
A: Have a safe and happy Samhain (Hallowe'en)
Name:sam •
Date: 10/28/07 23:05
A: Hi Panluna,
You mention this:
"Islam is a very strict religion with a strong controlling hold on it's followers.I know it's meant as social guidance for the Moslims as are all the other religious systems for their believers--after all without a sense of order everything would be chaotic and nothing would survive."
You are right, let me say too, that freedom is good when it is limited to the good things, for example freedom of speach is good that is until it turn to insult and attack and the use of bad words, then that kind of freedom of speach should be controled.
We can see clearly how the intertainment industry become today, in movies, theatre, songs etc., Some movies has no objective except bringing violence and some has more 4 letters words that make a person sick,, and in every seen there is a bottle and glass of alcohol, then fights and killing and distruction!!!. The only religion that give laws to control such abuse to humanity is Islam.
The following are an example for the result of the freedom that the west are proud of:
The following information from FBI the statistic in 2005.
Statistics provided in Crime in the United States, 2005, include:
Nationwide in 2005, there were an estimated 1,390,695 VIOLENT CRIMES reported.
The offense of forcible rape was the only violent crime to show a decrease
(1.2 percent) in estimated volume when compared with 2004 data.
The estimated volume of ROBBERY increased 3.9 percent, MURSER and nonnegligent MANSLAUGHTER increased 3.4 percent, and aggravated ASSAULT increased 1.8 percent from 2004 figures.
Nationwide in 2005, an estimated 10,166,159 PROPERTY CRIMES were reported.
Burglary was the only property crime to show an increase (0.5 percent) in the estimated volume when compared with 2004 data.
The estimated number of larceny-theft declined 2.3 percent, and the estimated number of motor vehicle thefts decreased 0.2 percent.
Collectively, victims of property crimes (excluding arson) lost an estimated
$16.5 billion: $7.6 billion in motor vehicle thefts, $5.2 billion as a result of larceny-thefts, and $3.7 billion in burglaries.
Nationwide in 2005, law enforcement agencies cleared 45.5 percent of violent crimes and 16.3 percent of property crimes.
The FBI estimated that, in 2005, law enforcement agencies nationwide made about 14.1 MILLION ARRESTS.
Collectively, law enforcement agencies made 4,761.6 arrests for each 100,000 in population for the 29 offenses for which the UCR Program collects arrest data.
{4762 PER 100 000 WOW, So if you take you chidren to stadium to watch a gamen and there are 50 000 others around, for sure there will be among them at least 2350 CRIMINALS all sort of criminals. THE QUESTION: HOW SAFE ARE YOU AND YOUR FAMILY???}
The arrest rate for violent crimes in 2005 was 204.8 arrests per 100,000 inhabitants; the arrest rate for property crimes was 549.1 arrests per 100,000 inhabitants.
By violent crime offense, the arrest rate for murder was 4.7; forcible rape, 8.6; robbery, 39.2; and aggravated assault, 152.2 per 100,000 in population.
By property crime offense, the arrest rate for burglary was 101.2; larceny-theft, 392.6; and motor vehicle theft, 49.7 per 100,000 in population. The arrest rate for arson was 5.5 per 100,000 inhabitants.
In 2005, more than 14,000 city, county, state, and tribal law enforcement agencies reported their staffing levels as of October 31, 2005, to the UCR Program. These agencies reported that, collectively, they employed 673,146 sworn officers and 295,924 civilians; a rate of 3.5 employees for each 1,000 inhabitants.
As you see here there are more than 11.5 millions crime in one year, and there are 972,000 officers and they cannot control the crime, and the material lost 16.5 Billions dollars!!!, of course they did not pot the price for the total cost to keep the criminals, and the damage that occurs to the society.
We all watched the news about the fire in California, and we heard about how it destroyed houses and killed people, and the damage by the billions, and CNN mentioned that if the arsonist is caught he will recieve a 5 YEARS in jail WOW. [Maybe he will be free after 2-3 years], then he will be back in the street doing more harms and many will do the same distruction, and the violence never end. What a law!!!.
Islam deals with such a crime by giving the death sentence to those who kills and destroy the land, and I think that is fair in my opinion.
And I think those who lost love one and lost all they been work for and build their home to be happy and feel free will agree with me, but the criminals and their families will not agrre to the laws of God.
God bless you.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 10/29/07 23:13
A: Sam,
Respect for the law and nature begins in the home.
Name:sam •
Date: 10/30/07 20:31
A: Hi Panluna,
RESPECT FOR THE LAW {LAW} and nature begins in the home.
That is true, and that is the first step, but the child grow up and go outside his home, and he will be influenced by his teachers and friends, and the many other things that surround him from the creation which the bad society produce [movies songs, books, guns etc.], after that the church has it is own LAWS, and will tell him that all his sins will be forgiven just by believing that the Christ is God, or the son of God, and after all that will see that the man made LAWS replacing God’s laws.
Under God’s laws there is no rich or poor, and the laws are created for the benefits of all, and to bring peace and prosperity.
On the other hand, the man made laws are created from the beginning by the man who rules [the rich and the strong], who made the laws to serve them first [if you read the history of Europe rulers and the history of the churches and it is rules you will that ]. Even the laws today and with all the changes they might bring, still hold within them the same ideas.
For example, No laws will be accepted or passed if it does interfere or limit the power of the big corporations. You cannot bring a law to take the guns away [not talking about the hunting gun] from the people or stop producing them and sell them to everyone!!!, Why, because it is a big business which benefit some on the top.
You cannot make laws to stop the drug dealers and the killers etc., because the business of the lawyers and the judges and the courts will collapse. I brought some figures in my other post about the 14 000 000 arrest in the year 2005 alone in the U.S. , did you ever try to figure out how many lawyers and judges and policemen etc, benefit from that business, and what will happen if the crimes rate fell to just HALF of that , is that means that HALF of the lawyers and judges etc., will be out of business, Do you think the judges who bring the laws will accept that?.
The FBI report for 2005 mentioned this: ““tribal law {TRIBAL LAW} enforcement agencies reported their staffing levels as of October 31, 2005, to the UCR Program. These agencies reported that, collectively, they employed 673,146 sworn officers and 295,924 civilians; a rate of 3.5 employees for each 1,000 inhabitants.”
673 146 +295 924 = 969 070 + the lawyers + the judges + the clerks + time wasted + money wasted + lives wasted + properties wasted + families destroyed + + + + etc.
And they [the lawyers and the judges, and those who benefits from these laws] claim that they brought these laws to protect the right of the individual [the criminal], but are these laws protecting the welfare of the families and the society?, so that everyone can live in peace and happiness?.
Can the majority of the 969 070 be used as teachers or architects or do other jobs which benefits all people?, instead of keeping them to serve the criminals!!!.
In the few countries that use the Islam laws [Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Malaysia etc.] the crime rate is very low, and there are no drugs or guns around them, and people has no fear because they know that they are protected, and their children are safe, and it is not the same in any western country.
My friend Sam, a school teacher from 1965 in Perth W.A. has suffered a lot, all because the school has no control over their students [as he said it is a jungle]. He and many other teachers they suffers from severe depression, and live on medication to carry on, and my friend is waiting for his retirement next year. After many times of complains, I mentioned to him that my brother when came to Canada he became a teacher in Islamic school and he is very happy, 17 years passed and he is 67 years old [2 years after retirement] and still love the school and the student.
His students which I met few times while visiting the school are well behaved and they hold respect for their teacher, and the school and for the other people, and I saw that clear when I pass by them. They are great.
Dear Panluna, when I talk about the Islam laws which came after the many other laws that God gave us throughout the ages by His messengers is no more than a refinement to them according to the need of the time. The commandments are God’s laws too, and Jesus spoke of them, and we will not find better laws to replace them, human can do make mistakes but God will not, and HE knows what is best for His people.
What I brought above is only about the LAWS in Islam to compare it with the modern laws of man, and that is all. If you find in the Bible or the Gospels any laws that contradicts with those please bring them, and thank you is advance.
God bless you.
Name:roy •
Date: 11/01/07 1:50
A: Hi Sam,
It is comforting to hear you promise harbor of peace among all those crazy events around us. I wish the life of Islamic people would be of that easy as you described.
If a government or dictator simply cut the people from their freedoms of declaration of opinion on any topic. Then they will be no hatred or insult speech to each other, but can you talk about truly Islamic of that kind of state?
If the same government forbids women drive or walk alone in the public. Strict dress code applied by ethic police squads. As a result no crime will be committed against women, neither rape and burglary. Can you call this a triumph of Islam?
If the state omits alcohol or drug consumption from its territory, and severely punish those who got involved. Taking them into prison, killing the suspect in drug abuse case. Is it fair thing to do according to Islam?
You claim Islam laws ruled the countries [Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Malaysia etc. I add Iran, former Afghanistan, Pakistan ]
I don't agree with you they are ruled by Islam laws. The reason the crime rate is low of course related to Islam but it is not because they imply the Islam law correctly. It could have been much lower if they had ruled their country according to true Quranic laws. Plus major benefits; happiness of their people, prosperity which stems from the talents of its people not underground oil wells, healthy societies which enjoy equalitarian rights to women/poor/disabled.
I agree with you about the refinement of amendments of God law by the time pass. However, it may come to you a surprise; I bring laws from Quran which contradicts "so called Islam laws "of today's so called Islamic countries.
There is no real punishment except a few of crimes which have the potential to harm to the order of the society. They are summarized as;
1- Whomever kills someone, or produces lies leads to cause mass killing of others, causing fight will be faced capital penalty.
2- People committed stealing, looting, robbing someone's property will get his/her hand be cut.
3- Whomever keep producing slander of adultery about someone will be charged 80 beats of whip or equivalents, whereas committing adultery, provided be witnessed by 4 person will be charged with 100 beats. Also the house imprisonment may apply. Homosexuality may be taken into same account under this provision.
There is no restriction of freedom of choice in anything resemble to today's so called Islamic states may apply. The rest of the areas not mentioned above are set free according to Quran. All other obedience requests/ recommendations are left to voluntary willpower of citizens. It is the milestone of test. It is the reason of creation. Is there any resemblance of today's so called Islamic ruled states?
In the "everything forbidden communities" there is no room to commit sin. I believe restricted Muslim is not granted with same paradise level, same praise quality as the free-society-living Muslims. If you broaden the scale; the human being who has the ability to commit sin but does not, is not same worth to who has no possibility to do so. If you cage a person/society and expect him behave under strict rules, than the person will not commit sin, the society would be crime free, but there will be no free society or individual out there, not to mention no person eligible to pass the test. They are breaching the rules of the test. The end result is the obedient but enslaved mass of Islamic world of about 1,5 billion.
This situation has been continuing for the last 500 years and I am afraid same dire circumstances will be experienced in the next 100 years. How and when will be the end of this unislamic "appearance only" living? If it ends; the real happiness and peace that we Muslims may export to the world would become reality again as offered in Quran.
Nice to hear you.
Name:sam •
Date: 11/02/07 0:23
A: Hi Roy,
will answer your post soon, but here some information that I found interesting:
1- from the forums [city-data.com] & the United kingdom crime world.
I left the UK 5 years ago and in all honesty, I have never looked back, or regretted that decision one bit. In fact, I have not even been back to visit the UK and it would not bother me if I never went back again.
One of the main reasons why I don’t miss the UK is the fact that British society as a whole is seriously ill. Anti-social behavior is out of control, gangs of drunken and drugged up youths basically rule the streets of pretty much all British towns and cities. They walk the streets, vandalizing anything they see, harassing anyone they see, committing acts of violence, intimidation and even murder. If you think that I’m talking out of my backside, I suggest you simply Google the words “British justice”, “yobs”, “murder” and “chavs” and you’ll find hundreds of articles in relation to young British criminals literally getting away with murdering innocent people.
2- [google answers: third world law.]
Crime: Adults prosecuted
Country ..........Amount
1. United States 14,203,800
2. Turkey 2,060,060
3. United Kingdom 1,504,730
4. Korea, South 1,196,480
5. Thailand 572,083
6. Germany 568,661
7. Canada 377,667
what a civilised world!!!,,, Turkey run second !!!, I think they benefit a lot from the west, and many other Muslim countries is slowly following the flock. Who knows? if the trend is going in the west direction after some years crime rate will be the same as the U.S. or worse.
People in general are attracted by the colourful images of the west which they can see through the movies and magazines, but they do not grasp the reality that lay beyound/behind which is a deteriated society which eventualy lead to the destruction of the good values.
God bless you.
Name:CanuckChick •
Date: 11/02/07 13:54
A: Panluna: I agree with your statement that respect for the law and nature begins in the home.
We cannot legislate morality. It must come from the heart.
The way to teach these values is to instill a love for God and his purposes. Unlike Islam, even God does not presume to take away our free will.
Re women covering - It would appear that this Islamic law is enforced for fear that men cannot restrain themselves from inappropriate behaviour in the face of a lovely woman. Why not force the men to wear chastity belts then, and allow women the freedom that is their God-given right?
This is a ridiculous, dehumanizing "law" and serves to make women
subservient and slaves to their male masters. Surely no God would approve.
CC
Name:sam •
Date: 11/02/07 23:29
A: Dear Roy,
Here is my statement in the previous post:
"In the few countries that use the Islam laws [Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Malaysia etc.] the crime rate is very low, and there are no drugs or guns around them, and people has no fear because they know that they are protected, and their children are safe, and it is not the same in any western country."
-----IN THE FEW COUNTRIES THAT USE THE {THE ISLAM LAWS}----- {THE CRIME RATE IS VERY LAW}
First, you should notice that, the main subject that I brought is the crime, and related the high crime rate to the man made laws which is proven to be not working well.
Second, I did give an example of few muslims countries in which the crime rate is very low, because in part they use the laws of Islam to deal with the crime, and that is true, and no one can deny this fact. here again a long list of countries and the numbers of crimes in them:
Crime: Adults prosecuted
Country ..........Amount
1. United States 14,203,800
2. Turkey 2,060,060
3. United Kingdom 1,504,730
4. Korea, South 1,196,480
5. Thailand 572,083
6. Germany 568,661
7. Canada 377,667
8. Netherlands 177,062
9. Finland 165,229
10. Japan 145,872
11. New Zealand 125,323
12. Hungary 111,779
13. Portugal 106,693
14. Czech Republic 102,250
15. Mexico 63,724
16. Belarus 62,005
17. Romania 61,161
18. Zimbabwe 54,934
19. France 54,224
20. Croatia 45,485
21. Bulgaria 43,380
22. Slovakia 32,503
23. Hong Kong 25,494
24. Slovenia 23,177
25. Kyrgyzstan 21,373
26. Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of 20,220
27. Latvia 15,255
28. Norway 12,009
29. Estonia 11,377
30. Georgia 6,960
From the 30 countries listed above, only 2 Muslim countries among them, but with the exception of the modern Turkey #2, the other is Kyrgyzstan a country of 5,403,000 population and with 22% Russian, 3% Ukrainian and 2% German, [this county was under USSR ocupation for a very long time]
Of couse this list it does not cover all the countries of the world. Russia, Brazil, Spain, Italy and all those have a high rate of crime, and Algeria, Moroco, Pakistan and those have a low rate of crime compared to the others [If you bring today political crimes which been created lately in some muslim countries as a result of the war and the occupation that came as a crimes from the west in the first place, then you should read the history. The western countries are behind all what is going on, and they want to rule the world and steal the other people resources, and that been going on for centuries, that is a fact.
Roy, In your answer you mentioned:
"A- If the same government forbids women drive or walk alone in the public. Strict dress code applied by ethic police squads."
-- Let me say this: For many centuries the catholic and others Nuns have a dress code, and so for the priests, and there is a dress code for men and women to enter the churh, the synagogue, the mosque and the temple, I don't see that you can go into these places half naked today even the code is changing by the year.
First of all,you should know that there is no laws in Islam to forbid women from driving, or force them to cover their faces or work beside the men or have education etc., all what been practiced by some muslims groups in those regards are "BIDAA...creation", and they were created by some silly imams, and has nothing to do with Islam and the matter of fact that is agains it is teachings, and those BIDAA do more harm to the woman, and to Islam.
At the time of the propet Muhammad the women never cover their faces and they travel with him and work and deal in business as equal to men.
B- " As a result no crime will be committed against women, neither rape and burglary. Can you call this a triumph of Islam?"
My answer is: you should understand that driving or not, and the dress code had no effect, and will not reduce or increase the crime committed against women or any type of crime [ Remember that my post was about the crimes in general] , and the crime can be reduced only by using the laws [Islam laws or other laws, the name does not matter], more lean the law against crime, that will bring more crime, and more severe the punishment that will reduce the crime. For example:
As we all know about the drugs problem and its negative effect on society from ruining families and increase the crimes.
And we can hear about the drug dealers who makes millions of dollars and when caught after a long chase which might take a lot of time and hard work by the authorities and after risking the life of the officers and other people, all what the drug dealers get is small fine and few months in jail to be free again to carry on the business. Some big drug dealers can be free and on the road before the officers who caught them go back on the street !!! thanks to the law and the lawyers and the jedges, and there are many complains about this fact from the officers who feel there is no use for them to risk their live time after time for nothing.
That is the reality as we see it in this report:
"The data for 2004, as reported by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, indicate that poisoning ranks second only to motor-vehicle crashes as the cause of unintentional deaths in the U.S.
The main cause of poisoning deaths was attributed to drugs, mostly from overdose or abuse with both prescription and illegal drugs.
The total number of accidental drug overdose deaths was 11,155 in 1999, which rose to a total of 19,838 in 2004, according to the CDC.
This trend is currently shown to have further increased each year from 1999 through 2004, with a 62.5 percent increase in the 5-year period."
WOW, WOW...62.5 % in just five years!!!! and the followings are the cost:
Fiscal Years 2006-2008 Federal drug control budget by function (in millions)
FY 2006 FY 2007 FY 2008
Function area
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
Total $12,999.2 ---$13,128.1--- $12,961.4
Treatment with research $2,941.9--- $2,943.0 --- $3,042.7
Prevention with research 1,862.6 --- 1,859.0 --- 1,575.1
Domestic law enforcement 3,474.7--- 3,597.0 --- 3,652.2
Interdiction 3,285.6--- 3,372.9 --- 3,292.1
International 1,434.5--- 1,356.2 --- 1,399.3
Source: ONDCP, National Drug Control Strategy,
EDUCATION: FY 2008
ED currently administers a budget of about $67.2 billion per year.
67 billions spent for education vs 13 billions spent for dealing with the drugs problems!!!.
....................-............................
Just- som einformation
On June 30, 2006--
-- 2,245,189 prisoners were held in Federal or State prisons or in local jails -- an increase of 2.8% from midyear 2005, less than the average annual growth of 3.4% since yearend 1995.
-- there were an estimated 497 prison inmates per 100,000 U.S. residents -- up from 411 at yearend 1995.
-- the number of women under the jurisdiction of State or Federal prison authorities increased 4.8% from midyear 2005, reaching 111,403 and the number of men rose 2.7%, totaling 1,445,115.
Roy, The numbers above shows us the failing system under the man made laws in the west in general beside their believe that they will be automatically saved if they believe in Jesus as God. You tell me if any , any muslim country came to that level in crime when compared to the US, Britain and the other christian countries?.
Do you think that only the laws of Islam against the criminal are the only thing that keeps the crime rates down?. I do belive that the muslims believe that they will be judged by God and no one can help them in that day not even the prophet is the main factor that keep away the muslims from committing crimes in general.
Crime & limited time prison + eternal paradise. on the west side
vs crime & limited prison time +eternal hell, Or crime & death sentence + eternal hell. on the east side.
The eternal life. [paradise or hell] are a big factor in the criminal mind decision when committing the act.
God bless you.
Name:roy •
Date: 11/03/07 20:37
A: Thanks Sam,
It has been much of use to my further search of the websites you mention for criminal data. The approach is very scientific. However did you check; the basic freedom rights, scientific research released per capita, happiness level, hospital per 1000 person, dying from simple illness per 1 million, child/mother death during birth, civilized behavior level to each other, usage of water bath and soap, public service gap to the poor, school of medicine, engineering, social sciences per million, theater/music halls per city, wealth of company/per capita, justice in distribution of income, overall happiness level in fulfilling his/her own desires, satisfaction who seek justice…. Any civilized constitution accepts the right of a citizen to pursuit of happiness in his/her own chosen way. On the contrary no such right is sought after in any "so called Islamic nation".
Pakistan's stupid puppet Musherref today declared state of emergency. He cut telephone lines/all tv stations, suspended constitution and judges. How nice it sounds isn’t it!, there is no crime committed in Pakistan under these circumstances! He wishes to rule the country without its citizens in it. Typical "so called Islamic dictatorship rules". Another 100's of Muslims life is at stake. Why it does not occur in any western country if you exempt war periods.
Sam, Life and paradise is hard thing to earn as it says in Quran.
002.214 Or do ye think that ye shall enter the Garden (of bliss) without such (trials) as came to those who passed away before you? they encountered suffering and adversity, and were so shaken in spirit that even the Messenger and those of faith who were with him cried: "When (will come) the help of Allah?" Ah! Verily, the help of Allah is (always) near!
3:142- Did ye think that ye would enter heaven without Allah testing those of you who fought hard (in his cause) and remained steadfast.
9:16 Or deemed ye that ye would be left (in peace) when Allah yet knoweth not those of you who strive, choosing for familiar none save Allah and His messenger and the believers? Allah is Informed of what ye do.
The statement that you suggest "Islam laws versus the crime rate is very low" is a fallacy. I am scared to be in Malaysia, Indonesia which are Muslim majority countries than I m scared in Singapore, Italy, Norway. I am scared to go to Iran, Ethiopia, Saudi Arabia, Libya to be taken for no serious crime, would perish in a prison. I had real stories in each country to take another half page to write. Kuwaiti can't make crime in their countries and keep them for their overseas travels to England and USA for adultery, cheating, gambling and money laundering. Who gave the kings of Islamic nation countries the wealth which is not questioned. Enslave the rights of all citizens in name of Islam! Is it fake İslam or is it a masque looting the future of billions of naïve people. Morocco, Arabia, Libya, Jordan, United arab Emirates, Umman,Yemen… Khalifes of 4 were living like that?
Suspension of all simple rights including walking in the street. As a result no crime occur, and you say they live in security. I have an Iranian lady who is looking forward to escape her native country at first chance, although very rich and has living parents.
Do you defend me such backward living standards after seeing Australia, Canada, England, Iraq, Lebanon and rest of the word.
Humankind is savage in creation, he is prone to killing and committing crime/ as well as mercy, and merits not equaled to anyone on earth. He/she is created deliberately to that way.
There is no such thing as Islam law and men law. All is given by God to the hands of men. Men law is also natural as well as others. Islam and Quran does not dictates any law. Quran says follow the takva in every move of human. It starts oneself, extends to family life reaches to topics which include international relations between nations. When to ceasefire, when to fight.. Can you include these in constitution/state law? The law that is used in Arabic countries is only a version of silly clerics understanding of İslam at their view. As you say lots of BIDAA is involved. An example from Quran and its implication in today's law for alcohol or any related intoxicant.
016:067 And of the fruits of the date-palm, and grapes, whence ye derive strong drink and (also) good nourishment. Lo! therein is indeed a portent for people who have sense.
005.091 Satan seeketh only to cast among you enmity and hatred by means of strong drink and games of chance, and to turn you from remembrance of Allah and from (His) worship. Will ye then have done? /Will you then desist?
The above verse is the only harsh statement against intoxicants in Quran along with another forbidding to pray before get sober enough. What the rulers and law writers do are completely different and extreme; take alcohol out of reach of its citizens, put them in jail, and kill those who carry drugs.
CanuckChick,
Islam do not imply that "God presumably take away our free will" Although He has final authority to approve our wills and He chooses whom to be His beloved creatures, He set us free to test us in our doings.
There is no such dehumanizing "law", serves to make women subservient and slaves to their male masters. The law is made up by liar clerics who wants empower themselves above Quran using Quran. The slavery, obedience is only to God, and is major and most important element of the Islamic belief.
CC,
The covering of lady head is the same story of extremes. If God wish to create a lady without head seen, He would do so. What is this swaddling clothes of covering girls head starting from babyhood! So strange looking to me and many people who are objective.
24: 31- And tell the believing women to subdue their eyes, and maintain their chastity. They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary. They shall cover their chests, and shall not relax this code in the presence of other than their husbands, their fathers, the fathers of their husbands, their sons, the sons of their husbands, their brothers, the sons of their brothers, the sons of their sisters, other women, the male servants or employees whose sexual drive has been nullified, or the children who have not reached puberty. They shall not strike their feet when they walk in order to shake and reveal certain details of their bodies. All of you shall repent to GOD, O you believers, that you may succeed.
… that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms….
….display not their ornaments, except those which are outside; and let them pull their kerchiefs over their bosoms….
Sam for you in Arabic.
Waqul lilmu/minati yaghdudna min absarihinna wayahfathna furoojahunna wala yubdeena zeenatahunna illa ma thahara minha walyadribna bikhumurihinna AAala juyoobihinna wala yubdeena zeenatahunna illa libuAAoolatihinna aw aba-ihinna aw aba-i buAAoolatihinna aw abna-ihinna aw abna-i buAAoolatihinna aw ikhwanihinna aw banee ikhwanihinna aw banee akhawatihinna aw nisa-ihinna aw ma malakat aymanuhunna awi alttabiAAeena ghayri olee al-irbati mina alrrijali awi alttifli allatheena lam yathharoo AAala AAawrati alnnisa-i wala yadribna bi-arjulihinna liyuAAlama ma yukhfeena min zeenatihinna watooboo ila Allahi jameeAAan ayyuha almu/minoona laAAallakum tuflihoona
Please check the verse above to covering head. Please weigh in your mind if head is a part of body which is among what must ordinarily appear. If not how a woman suppose to live without showing head? They take it to extreme again in so called Islamic! countries. In those countries men also cover heads with white cloth. Is it also Islamic?
I refrain myself from misconception that I haven’t liked head scarf ladies. To tell you the truth some covered women can be much more beautiful & attractive than uncovered counterparts. (Sam keep it between us)
Sam you say,
"for men and women to enter the church, the synagogue, the mosque and the temple, I don't see that you can go into these places half naked today even the code is changing by the year."
I have attended some weddings in Orthodox churches and I assure you young ladies were all half naked, if not completely as in the bedroom~only dress. I awed the windows of cloth shops in Saudi Arabia, is it the way like that they dress in homes? I see them also in some Arabian tv channels soap-operas, they are more erotic/naked dressed than American movies which can be taken as comparably conservative. So women same is everywhere.
Sam what we don’t agree is there is no Islam law. There are law which has been influenced by Quran and implementations of local traditions.
Quran has never forced and ordered to punish/restrict life/ cover any sexes head/ take away basic rights/designate rulers / unconditional obedience/ wealth distribution/ praying forcibly/ travel rights crippled for any gender/ drug dealer punishment / drug abuse death prevention methods.
Turkiye is not different from the rest of the world in crime rates. We have no religious obligatory education, very limited knowledge of Quran, very low rate of adherence to Quranic values. I pitifully accept the non awareness in public of beauty of would be İslamic seasoned Turkish society. The ones who teach Quran in Turkiye wants to turn their face to Bidaa version of İslam not the Islam taught in Quran. There are hopes of better understanding in modern theology universities. But Islamic teaching has been forbidden strictly because it has caused us Ottoman Empire to collapse, lost of 20% of living men 80 years ago. We hardly escaped not to be enslaved by westerners like other Arabic nations. However today Mr Erdogan is doing his best to go under reign of them.
I completely agree on crime & limited prison time +eternal hell, Or crime & death sentence + eternal hell. on the east side. It prevents many crimes before happening. It is not the police states of medieval age living standard Muslim countries lawmakers to realize this success.
Non free person can not achieve any development in science and technology. The crime is a by-product of healthy thinking non-muslim societies. If the heavenly recommendations are well understood and matched/meshed/mingled with logical thinking there would both be improvement, scientific development as well as low rates of crime. The future societies who would be celebrating the triumph of civilizations will be from among those nations.
May God be with you.
Name:sam •
Date: 11/04/07 1:29
A: Hi roy,
hwere what you said:
"It has been much of use to my further search of the websites you mention for criminal data. The approach is very scientific. However did you check; the basic freedom rights, scientific research released per capita, happiness level, hospital per 1000 person, dying from simple illness per 1 million, "
My question to you is this:
Did you ever read the history of those coutries which you mention here who suffer today from many problems?
I am sure that you read the Turkish & the Oseman history, and you think that they been a great nation, but did you know the history of those countries who been under their accupation as Syria, Lebanon, Egypt and the many other Arab counties?, I don't this you know much about them except they are less advanced than your great country.
You never read the truth to what happen to the people of these coutries .
What I am bringing here from facts they are not from books which been written by people I don't know but from the people who lived under the Osoman occupation, from both of my grandfathers, and the many other people who describe the crulity of the turks and keeping the people uneducated and live in poverty while the resources and the gold were sent to Istambul. Did you hear about the "SUHRA", it is a term used for those men and women who been forced to work for the turks without pay, {slavery}, and the "SAFA-BARLECK" and that a term used for those men who been taken from their homes by force and sent to the front line in the Caucasian or Europe or Yemen [of course their families never know where they been sent] and what they know that they been taken and never came back. Hundreds of young men in my town Baalbeck mentioned by names by their families.
Lebanon east mountain was green, until the Turks cut every tree to use for building the railway and run the trains until the mountain became baren, and cut the ceder trees until only 300 left.
People in our coutry have a say: " If the tatars [Holaco & Jenkins-Khan] burned Baghdad and Damascus and all the wealth of books, put our country back hundred years the Turks occupation put our country back thousand years.
The Turks gone and replaced by the French and the English, another thiefs and crule occupier who stole evrything, the gold and silver been taken from the people and replaced by piece of paper, and as the Turks they try to keep the people in poverty and in need and when they left in 1947, they created Israel in 1948, and created more unrest and more war to keep the area under the control of the west, and no thanks to the Turks who voted with the west for the creation of that state in the heart of the Arab world. The same happen in India and In north Africa and all in those countries that you mentioned as not happy or lack medical services.
Istambul and the great cities in Tukey were built from the what been stolen from the other occupied countries, and so the wealthe of Englan, France Holland, Spain etc, came from the stealing and killing of the others people, and the wealth of the US and Canada came from stealing the land and killing the Indian and using millions of slaves.
Roy, before you talk about the problems of the poor counties and their lack of advancement and comparing them to the others, them bring the blaim on them, you should know first the truth, and why that happen.
I lived in Iraq for several years [1953-1958] and I vesited several times after [my uncle has a business in Baghdad], the country was advancing year after year, and the city is beautiful and a lot great progects [dams factories, univercities and many other] but today the country turned into ruins, 4millions refugees, no schools no work and the petrol stolen, all that was planed by the west and the lies keep coming. So my freind you blame the Iraqies for they are not happy and not having doctors or teacher etc.
Wake up my friend and try to seek the truth and the facts, and not fell to the propoganda of the west. They lie all the time when they talk about peace and freedom, that a banner that hide bhinde it the real things.
The US say that they fight terrorism, but when Turkey try to fight the terrorism in their land the do not agree with them !!!
God bless you.
Name:roy •
Date: 11/06/07 1:01
A: Hi Sam ,
I want to answer you on next post, however please take the time to read below for more correct attitude toward turks. I found you preoccupied, to my surprise.
They show not the guilt of crime but on the contrary the working of the jurisdictial system.
Adults prosecuted # 2 in rank
Acquitted are at # 4 in rank
in per 1000 capita they are at # 4 ranking in both categories.
The high level of acquitted means, although one might be prosequted they cleared him/her of a crime. Now please take a moment to look at the real statistics from the same website: http://www.nationmaster.com
Turkey is about 20th most populated country, of the world. (about 1 fourth of USA). In that respect we hold major success in keeping people out of trouble. It also held evidence of attracting more than 15 million tourists each year. Tourism is most sensitive to peace/unrest.
TURKISH CRIME STATS: Total crimes (per capita) # [54th of 60]
Rapes (per capita) #[53rd of 65]
Drug offences by country #32
Assault victims- not mentioned among countries
Assaults (per capita) by country #33
Burglaries by country - not mentioned among first 54 countries
Car thefts (per capita) #36
Gun violence ] Homicides ] Non-firearm homicide rate ] per 100,000 pop. (most recent) by country - not mentioned among first 32 countries
Please take away hyphens (-) if any:
full coverage murders stats is at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li-st_of_countries_by_murder_rate
D-o- you call this a country of unrest. Amid a war zone surrounded by Iraq, ex Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Russia, Armenia…
I got some global research findings for you. Census results, interesting reports on social subjects:
http://pewglobal.org/reports/
If you want to check the country reports on security issues before travelling you may see also below. It may be English government subjective reports I can't know the truth:
http://www.fco.gov.uk
I suggest to forget crime enjoy time at the lovely website that turks may offer to you at: http://www.tulumba.com/
May God make you more optimistic
Name:roy •
Date: 11/08/07 9:21
A: Hi Sam,
I read about the history of Syria, Lebanon, Egypt and the many other Arab countries, plus Lebanon israel inevitably because they were part of my native history. We still have many arab, kurdish, azeri, asurian, Christian, armenian, jewish, communities living in homeland Turkiye. Yes my country and its people are great, unmatched to any nation on earth. They are prone to be deceived, make mistakes, have vulnerabilities, make unjust, but they never steal anybody wealth, pursued imperialistic desires, take advantage of the poor. They have always had a state throughout the history we enjoy the 17th now. If they were always correct in ruling; the former 16 wouldn't have been destroyed.
At the gate of Osmanli main palace is written as " we are the advacote & protector of the aggrieved
nations." Who has else wrote something as a motto to his gate of everday living/ruling estate?
My Grandfather was martyr at Yemen along with 600.000- up to 1 million estimated turk.
Ottoman didn't get any surplus tax from Saudi Peninsula and muslim areas, on the contrary they have been spending more than they got. I can provide you with concrete evidence.
They didn't keep those areas with high level of military personnel, proving that they had no serious struggle with the locals. Under realistic measures to talk about occupation is not correct, they dont celebrate even the end of Otoman reign. They don’t mention "occupation" in existing muslim nations. Syrian bureaucrats hang the Ottoman Emperors pictures to their walls even today, as it is their history as well as turks.
The rulers of the area may be cruel and as a result the unrest raised among local people. I can accept to certain extent that the bureaucrats, judges, rulers were not selected out of merit but by liaisons to Istanbul reign. The Osmanli and Turks has paid the fault dear. It was a widespread mishap all over country, not only your territory. The result was dismantling of the state.
The people over the Osmanli rule kept uneducated allover the Empire, just like today's arab league nations. The result was terrible. It was easier to control the uneducated. I agree on that, however it was not only your area which was kept uneducated but even Istanbul people were kept away from enlightenment.
What are the golds you mention? Did you have gold and we "bad turks" were looting them? haha, where have been the gold mines for the last 90 years that turks are not there? Why are you not richer and more happier, more educated? Arab countries only got petroleum with secret accords of European American governments to transfer the income to their governments and royal arab families. The local people suffer with illiteracy, sickness, poverty, even hunger, dry waterless cities let alone homes. Mecca the most holiest city ~mother of all cities~ according to Kuran suffers.
The people who were kept as slave was not/ could not be among from muslim people. It is very simple rule in Islam. Learn more before blindfold yourself. Those who were slave were treated as one of the member of the family, those on the workforce were not worth to mention, because they were in so little numbers. Islam has been promoting to end slavery, Turks they followed the suit.
Yes there was some forced abduction of the youngsters at the history of Osmanli to recruit in army. It was at times of dark ages of Europe as well during 1300. The ones who were taken from their families, as you name them safa-berleck, = devshirme, were elite youngsters among non-muslims. They were often with the consent of their families to seek better future for their sons. They were treated with great value, educated at the palace schools in religion, they were raised to ruling posts of the Osmanli Empire. I can name you at least 20 pashas ~ mayor ~commander ~minister, who were like this. They could have reached up to second post after Emperor.
You accuse Turks has cut your trees. They brought you train lines connecting the Europe to Medina Middle East. They were built by the private peoples donations started by Emperor II Abdulhamit. Since It has held a danger to English evil wishes not to keep arabs and turks united. They gave gold coins of each railroad destroyed piece of tree. They succeeded. You don't have any connection to anywhere till now in recent decade. The remaining infrastructure were destroyed by Israel last year. You call this a success? You are still after your trees? How long does it take to harvest forest? Did your government invest in any of it? Easy to blame turks on every malfunctions that you experience.
Ataturk the last commander in 1920 has decided not to waste even one more single turks life for arab countries.
Your hatred filled lie is so great absurdity that it is more than hilarious. "Istanbul and the great cities were built from the what been stolen from occupied countries." Basic archives show the opposite. Istanbul was built by Byzantines around 600 BC. It was held by Turks since 1453. It is before Yavuz had defeated Memluks conquered southern middle east in 1571. It has been center of trade for several centuries.
We have invested money and lives of turks to keep your ancestors' land civilized, and proud to be under muslim rule against crusades of the Europe, holy land against continuous threat from Portugal.
We turks are not the ones being the puppet of the western aims. We are perhaps one of the very few who keep aware and awake not to be manipulated by the non-muslim states. Iraq governments were appointed out of freewill of its people. They were ruled by this and by that. They followed Christian, atheist, Zionist secret service incitement, and allurement. The result of today's catastrophe, I hope, you don't blame on turks again. Previous to Saddam was also manipulated government as well as after Saddam. Both were blasphemy to Islamic values.
The poor and naive kurds are now the target of propaganda, some little percentage joined banditry to kill their fellow muslim turk brothers. The USA and others doesn't have the luxury not to agree with Turks to fight the terrorism. We are a big nation even not aware of its power. The army people who fight terrorism do it in civilized, freedom, humanitarian way, unlike USA. They want not to hurt any unguilty, and based on convincing, forgiving, it takes long. Patience ran out I am afraid recently, against the murderers and their much civilized!! supporters.
May God hear you what you say against your fellow brothers.
Name:sam •
Date: 11/09/07 16:48
A: Dear Roy,
Sorry that you miss understand my answer to your post in which you mentioned the following, :
A- "Any civilized constitution accepts the right of a citizen to pursuit of happiness in his/her own chosen way."
----- That is true, BUT, The civilized counties occupied the others [uncivilized] countires for many generations and left behind the mess that we see today and they still doing that {everything is planed}, what happen to Iraq and what is happening in Many other part of the Muslims world [ Kurss vs Turks & Kurds vs Arabs & Indian vs Pakistani]are the creation of the civilized and advanced coutries. Before the war of Iraq there were 3000 Mosads in that area and many Amirican too (from CNN news)
I try to explain that in my other post, but sorry that you miss understand me. I love the Turks and the Kurds and all the other muslims, but I do not like those who rule their country, and I know that they are planted and supported most of the time by the advanced countries.
B- "On the contrary no such right is sought after in any "so called Islamic nation".
How can that happen, while we are under occupation and the influence of the west?, do they [the civilized] want us [the muslims] to be free and strong and happy?. Do you forget all the attacks on us from all sides even the pope "Benedict" he came to attack the muslims!!!.
Roy, You said : "I can name you at least 20 pashas ~ mayor ~commander ~minister, who were like this. They could have reached up to second post after Emperor."
The followin are the story of the Pashas:
"Azem Palace" - from the net.
"The Azem Palace was built, in the 18th century, as a palatial residence for ASSAD PASHA AL-AZEM, Ottoman governor of Damascus for 14 years. It is considered a great example of Damascene houses. The governor had diverted the waters of Barada to his gardens and summoned most carpenters and masons in Damascus. He also ordered for roman columns from Bosra to be brought in along with the ancient paving of Banyas."
WHO IS "ASAAD PASHA AL-AZEM?
My wife B. Al-Azem, both her parents are from Al-Azem famly, her mother was born and lived and get married in the "AZEM PALACE", until the palace was taken from them and all the land [millions of acres] in Damascus , Homus, Hamah, and Aleppo, and they left to every family only 75 acres. (1958)
evryone in the Azem family keep the tree chart which had every name [man/woman] in it , from IBRAHIM PASHA TO THE LAST MEMBER OF THE FAMILY in 1992. Total number is 2124 names.
Faisal is # 2123 & Lina is # 2124. My wife is # 586
The following are the branch which relate my wife to ASAAD PASHA from her father side. (their numbers between brakets)
IBRAHIM PASHA (1)...Ismael Pasha (2)...Saad El- Dean Pasha (6)....Nassoouh Pasha (19)....Ahmed Mouayad Pasha (35)....Hashem beck (318) my wife father.
And from her mother side:
IBRAHIM PASHA (1)....Mustafa Pasha (16)....Muhamed Pasha (33)....Abdulla Pasha (41).... *ASAAD PASHA *(343) He had 21 children {13 boys & 8 girls}, his son KHALEEL BECK (672)had 7 children the youngest is RAFIQUA KHANUM ( 1175), the mother of my wife B. Al Azem.
From that you can see that ASAAD PASHA is the grand father of my wife mother, and that is a very close relation.
My family [Al-Husseini] had a very strong and unbroken friendship relation with the Azem family from the side/branch of Asaad Pasha for many generations.
The Azem family were the richest in Syria but the new generation accept the fact that all the money and the land which their Pashas earned is taken from the hard working people [mostly farmers], and sometimes by force, and they are not proud about it.
Roy, you said : "My Grandfather was martyr at Yemen along with 600.000- up to 1 million estimated turk."
First I like to say that I am sorry for all those people who lost their live in the wrong wars, in the wrong places.
Second, why the Turks has to go to Yemen/ (muslim country )?, If you call the Turks who died in Yemen, the other people land martyrs, then what can we call the millions of Yemens who lost their life if their country by an outsider?.
The American and the English and the others who die in Iraq and other countries they call them Martyrs!!!, so what about the hundred of thousands of enocent Iraqies and others people who lost their live to forces coming from far away land?.
God bless you.
Name:roy •
Date: 11/09/07 23:38
A: Hi Sam,
You quoted:
"I am sorry for all those people who lost their live in the wrong wars, in the wrong places. "
Roy wrote:
I agree for wrong wars at wrong places argument of yours. I am sorry for the wrong decisions of the Ottoman palace at the I st world war. They were so much in lack of foresight that only few years back while holding side with English and French against Russians in 1908. They kept side with Germans against those former countries in 1914. The Ottoman army was given under command of German military chiefdom, one after another. They still hold on top the nameplates; the 2 former generals names under their memorial log. It was the biggest mistake that ruin the Ottoman, and brought to its end. The agreement was in return the Germans would lend Ottomans 5 million gold coins with 6% yearly interest. German king Willhelm was rumored to be a convert Muslim. It was a game to convince Muslim soldiers to fight for Jihad~ foreign caused. The irony was as Ottoman lost Jerusalem as a result of bad logistics, military failure against English. The German Austrians were helding celebrations for the fall of holy land into Christian hands after centuries.
The English has the opportunity to take advantage of the mistake Ottoman had done. They secretly feeded the local tribesman and clerics to upraise and not to support the jihad declared by the Turks. The actor spy of English was "Arab Lawrence" who was English, behaving as convert Muslim, spreading words of uprising. The game was same as Turks side; a fake Muslim convert and fake Arab Jihad declared. They have promised land and fortune to Suud family and their religion sect of mufti AbdulVahhab. Vahhab has announced that they were not going to support Turks at this war as the Turks had gone out of Islam by joining forces with Germans. They would no longer has the cause to obey Turks who were stupid, cruel, unjust rulers…
Partially the Arabs were right to behave so. Please take the moment to read the following Quran verses:
5: 51- O ye who believe take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.
5:55Your friend can be only Allah; and His messenger and those who believe, who establish worship and pay the poor-due, and bow down (in prayer).
9:23- O ye who believe! Take not for protectors your fathers and your brothers if they love infidelity above Faith: if any of you do so, they do wrong.
All these circumstances has brought English supported Yemeni militias and Turks against each other. However, Yemen were never left to English, nor surrendered to them but Osmanli commanders released all equipment, and ammunition to Yemeni friendly local leaders in peace, constructed new government and left the place. Yemen today is a friendly country, do not have bad history records against Turks. Saudi kings may not be the same. They keep hard feelings against Turks, otherwise Amerikans and English may feel difficulty to keep them separate. Petroleum resources may be in danger.
Sam wrote: " why the Turks has to go to Yemen/ (Muslim country )?,"
Roy wrote: Turks were there with the same cause of why they came to anywhere on the earth. They had to compete with rival fleets of Portugal, English for Indian trade. If you are not there someone else would have been there, and they would not have protected holy areas as you do as a Muslim.
Sam wrote: " If you call the Turks who died in Yemen, the other people land martyrs, then what can we call the millions of Yemenis who lost their life if their country by an outsider?.
The American and the English and the others who die in Iraq and other countries they call them Martyrs!!!, so what about the hundred of thousands of innocent Iraqis and others people who lost their live to forces coming from far away land?."
Roy wrote: We must look at Quran for the terminology and conceptual meaning of martyr. If it fits to the meaning then you can call them martyrs.
57:19 And those who believe in Allah and His messengers, they are the loyal; and THE MARTYRS are with their Lord; they have their reward and their light; while as for those who disbelieve and deny Our revelations, they are owners of hell-fire.
3: 140- If a wound hath touched you, be sure a similar wound hath touched the others. Such days (of varying fortunes) we give to men and men by turns: that Allah may know those that believe, and that he may take to himself from your ranks MARTYR WITNESSES (TO TRUTH). And Allah loveth not those that do wrong.
2: 154- And say not of those who are SLAIN IN THE WAY OF ALLAH: "They are dead." Nay, they are living, though ye perceive (it) not.
TO BE A MARTYR:
The person must be Muslim, who believe in Allah and His messengers.
He/she should believe in revelations.
He/she should be slain in the way of Allah.
If Turks or whomever carry those attributes they are martyrs.
I don't believe the ownership right of a land hold forever by a lucky nation or community. God has giveth the land whoever He wishes throughout the history. The causes of change of hand of land may be tied at competition, better usage of land, erecting a higher civilization, bring better technology to construct/architect, bring better instruments for the living people, such days (of varying fortunes/ conquers) God give to men and men by turns, continuous perfection of human values.
7: 128- Said Moses to his people: pray for help from Allah, and (wait) in patience and constancy: for THE EARTH İS ALLAH'S TO GİVE AS A HERİTAGE TO SUCH OF HİS SERVANTS AS HE PLEASETH; and the end is (best) for the righteous.
21: 105- Before this we wrote in the Psalms, after the Message (given to Moses): MY SERVANTS THE RİGHTEOUS, SHALL İNHERİT THE EARTH.
28:5 And We desired to show favour unto those who were oppressed in the earth, and to make them examples and TO MAKE THEM THE İNHERİTORS,
We may not call American English as martyrs for the above reasons, but we may well call Turks as martyrs, however if Yemenis who were holding righteous causes, may also be named as martyrs. There is a golden rule in Islam whomever has started fight among brothers, join forces against the aggressor. God decides who is martyr at the end at judgment day.
Iraqis who lost their life with no fault of themselves has been the victims of great aggressors. They were murdered. Saddam and his supporters were devilish as well as the oppressors over there today, either foreign or among themselves.
The rules of fight and treatment to each other has been drawn clearly in Quran, anyone interested, and wants to live in peace must study, and obey what is recommended by Allah.
