Name:sam •
Title: ARE THE CHURCHES REPRESENTS JESUS TEACHINGS? •
Date posted: 08/07/07 14:58
Q: Hi everyone,
This question which I brought here is a valid one, that came after years of reading the gospels and the words of Jesus, and the many opinions that been presented by many Christians.
And reading about the history of the churches, and how Christianity evolved and developed from the time it moved to Rome until now, all that broght doubt about the religion, if it is right or not.
When I read What A Nun wrotes, I thought to bring that for the others to read, and to give their opinion.
Mary Ann Collins (former catholic Nun, who became a protestant).
Her on-line books:
-Unmasking Catholicism.
-The catholic undertow.
- Catholicism unveiled.
- Another side of Catholicism.
Also she recommended two other books. If you really want to understand Catholic teaching in the light of Scripture and the history of the Catholic church, then I strongly recommend reading the following two books.
(1) "The Gospel According to Rome: Comparing Catholic Tradition and the Word of God," by James G. McCarthy. This book is easy to read, well documented, objective, and gentle. It is a comprehensive guide to Catholic beliefs, based on Catholic sources. It examines Catholic teachings in the light of Scripture.
(2) "The Church of Rome at the Bar of History" by William Webster. This book compares modern Catholic doctrines with the teachings of the early Church.
Under the title, “MARY WORSHIP?”, I read the following:
INTRODUCTION
Jesus said that the truth will set us free. (John 8:32) However, He did not say that the truth would necessarily be easy to accept. It was painful for me to learn the information that I am about to share with you, but it was also liberating and it led to a closer relationship with God.
I believe in letting people speak for themselves. Therefore my primary sources about Catholic doctrines and history come from the Catholic Church.
Then she brought many of the catholic church doctrines to prove her point, and here what she wrote:
- When Pope John Paul II was shot, while the ambulance was rushing him to the hospital, the Pope was not praying to God or calling on the name of Jesus. He kept saying, over and over: "Mary, my mother!" Polish pilgrims placed a picture of Our Lady of Czestochowa on the throne where the Pope normally sat.
- Jesus said, "[W]here your treasure is there will your heart be also." (Luke 12:34) Some statues of Mary have real crowns made of gold. The web sites listed in the Notes show pictures of statues of Our Lady of Fatima and Our Lady of Lourdes wearing crowns. (Note 5) The statues in the pictures are replicas, and their crowns are ceramic and painted gold. But the crowns on the original statues at Fatima and Lourdes are real crowns made of real gold.
Vast sums of money are spent on jeweled crowns and lavish clothing for some special statues of Mary. (You can see pictures of them in the Catholic devotional book, “Miraculous Images of Our Lady.”)
- One popular prayer in Mary’s honor is the "Hail Holy Queen," which is known in Latin as the "Salve Regina". It is traditionally included as part of praying the rosary.
For Catholics who are reading this, please try to overcome your familiarity with this text and really look at the words. Doesn’t this sound like worship?
"Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy! Our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping, in this valley of tears. Turn, then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary."
- Pope Benedict XV said of Mary that "[O]ne can justly say that with Christ, she herself redeemed mankind." (Note 10) Pope Pius IX said: "Our salvation is based upon the holy Virgin... so that if there is any hope and spiritual healing for us we receive it solely and uniquely from her." (Note 11)
-The Catholic Church exalts Mary as an idealized, larger-than-life, perfect mother. However, the Bible shows that at one point Mary misunderstood Jesus’ calling to the point that she thought He was insane and she tried to prevent Him from doing what God wanted Him to do. Look at Mark 3:20-34.
"And the multitude cometh together again, so that they could not so much as eat bread. And when his friends heard of it, they went out to lay hold on him: for they said, He is beside himself.’" (Mark 3:20-21)
- IMMACULATE CONCEPTION -- Mary was preserved from all stain of original sin from the first instant of her conception. ("Catechism" 490-492).
In Luke 1:46-47, Mary said: "My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour". Mary knew that she needed a savior.
- In contrast, Mary said that God is her Savior. (Luke 1:47) If God was her Savior, then Mary was not sinless. Sinless people do not need a Savior.
- PERPETUAL VIRGINITY -- Mary was a virgin before, during and after the birth of Christ. ("Catechism" 496-511)
- Jesus had brothers and sisters. The Bible even tells us their names. Matthew 13:54-56 says, "
And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hatch this man this wisdom, and these mighty works? Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary? And his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, are they not all with us?"
- MOTHER OF GOD -- Because she is the mother of Jesus, and Jesus is God, therefore Mary is the Mother of God. ("Catechism" 963, 971, 2677).
Mary was only the mother of Jesus as man, and not the mother of Jesus as God. According to the Bible, the world was created through Jesus. This was long before Mary was born. Hebrews 1:1-2 says,
- QUEEN OF HEAVEN -- God has exalted Mary in heavenly glory as Queen of Heaven and earth. ("Catechism" 966) She is to be praised with special devotion. ("Catechism" 971, 2675)
Psalm 148:13 says, "Let them praise the name of the Lord: for his name alone is excellent; his glory is above the earth and heaven." This makes it quite clear that only God’s name (not Mary’s) is to be exalted. (In Catholic Bibles the numbering of the chapters and verses of some of the Psalms is slightly different.)
When people tried to give Mary special honor and pre-eminence because she was His mother, Jesus corrected them.
"And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it." (Luke 11:27-28)
Let us all discuss things, start by charing love and not hate, and by been honest, which is the only way to come to the truth.
God bless you.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 08/09/07 1:02
A: The crown on Mary's head represented the nimbus or spiritual light that appears around holy people.The crown also represents Mary's royal heritage as a human woman who brought the Saviour into the world.She holds an exaulted place in Christianity due to her role as the vessel of Divine Love.
Name:sam •
Date: 08/10/07 16:38
A: Dear Panluna,
I mentioned before that the Quran brought the story of the Virgin Mary in a full chapter, in the name , Surat Mariam .
Here are two verses : Q- 3:42 And when the angels said, O Mary , indeed Allah hes chosen you and purified you and chosen you ABOVE THE WOMEN OF THE WORLDS......
(From the billions of women who lived on earth, God shoses Her to be the one Above all.)
3:45 - ..... And when the angels said, O Mary, indeed, Allah gives you good tiding of a word from HIM, whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, distinguished in this world and the Hereafter and among those brought near [to Allah]....
(God gave Abraham this name, and HE named Ishmael & Isaac and many others and Mariam and Jesus before they were born. The name Mariam [Mary] came 34 times, while Her son Jesus 33 times.)
Let us look at one of the four gospels ans see how her name mentioned. Matthew.
Joseph the husband of Mary.....his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph......take unto thee Mary thy wife.....young child with Mary his mother....is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren....Mary the mother of James and ....Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary [Jesus mother]....Mary Magdalene and the other Mary [Jesus mother] to see the sepulcher....
All what came in the gospels about the birth of Jesus and Mary are the words and the stories of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, and the other people who told the stories, and any one can see the differences in those stories. They suppose to be a correct and true translation from the original writing, which was Aramaic (the language that Jesus spoke), but they are not. The stories were written after a long time from the time when they happen, and been translated many times, and the people as we know are not perfect, some will add thing to make it look greater, others will add things to make them tool of power and to control their subjects (exam: the people who run the churches)
But with all that, the truth cannot be hidden, always there will be crack in the made up stories, and any person with free mind and good judgement and knows how to use logic will find the truth.
Mary Magdalene name always came before Mary the mother of Jesus ( who is more important?.)
“when Jesus was risen , he appeared first to Mary Magdalene.”(that is a proof)
Mat- 12:47 Someone said to Him, “Behold, your Mother and your brothers ARE STANDING OUTSIDE SEEKING TO SPEAK TO YOU.”
(Is His mother and His brothers not allowed to get inside !!!. Did the ones who give the message to Jesus has no regards for Jesus mother and His brother to keep them outside?)
Mat- 12:48 But Jesus answered THE ONE WHO WAS TELLING HIM and said,” WHO IS MY MOTHER AND WHO ARE MY BROTHERS!
Mat- 12:50 FOR WHOEVER DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER WHO IS IN HEAVEN [HIS GOD] , HE IS MY BROTHER AND SISTER AND MOTHER.”
(Jesus tells the truth. Any woman will be like his mother if she does the will of God. NOT HIS WILL)
John- 2:3/4 When the wine ran out, the Mother of Jesus said to Him, “THEY HAVE NO WINE.” And Jesus said to her, “WOMAN, WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH US?...
( Did He suppose to call HER mother in front of the crowd, and show respect in answering her?, then If she is the mother of God, then she is who created God!!!)
You said, “The crown on Mary's head represented the nimbus or spiritual light that appears around holy people.”
First, There are no holy people, and the only holy one is the holy spirit, GOD who is in heaven and not on earth. The crown and the nimbus all are the creation of the people of the churches. The made the popes, the holiest men on earth, then the made of them saints and by the thousands and they crowned them and put nimbus on their heads, while some of them are crooks and murderers etc..
Second, The crown and the spiritual light, all are the making of the churches, I think you know that there are many things in the teaching and preaching of the churches that did not come from Jesus. The trinity formula and making Jesus God and Mary the mother of God all created after 380 years from Jesus death, and by the Roman Emperor who worship the sun and the idols.
Third, I wonder if you know the fact, that Jesus and His mother and all the disciples and the people who followed them were not rich, Barnabas Has to sell his land to support them. They all lived in a very humble and simple way, in what they dress and what they eat etc., and Jesus rode a donkey when entering Jerusalem, while the rich and those who hold power they ride horses. Jesus and Mary never wear crown, and no one saw the spiritual light around them, those are the imagination of people, no more.
When people believe that Jesus is God, because He said, “I was before Abraham”, forgetting that Abraham was not the first of God creation and He came only before [ maybe five thousand years more or less], while Adam and Eve [the first human] were created before hundred thousand years, and Adam was called the son of God in Luke: Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of ADAM, WHICH WAS THE SON OF GOD.
Panluna, when you believe that Jesus is the son of God, that makes God the father of two children on this earth. The earth was alone and the only one, but today we know that there are 30billion trillion stars out there, and there will be more to be found [thanks to sciences], and God mentioned in the Quran that from the stars and earth, there are like of them.
Fourth, The other creation that the churches came with which is just complete false, is making statues and pictures for Jesus and Mary and many others, and let the people believe that is what they are like, So the people can kneel in front of them and talk to them, etc.!!!. Different churches has their own images. Not one of them is the true image of those that they represents. Those became an idols, and the are forbidden by God commandment: #2- YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FOR YOURSELF AND IDOL, OR ANY LIKENESS [OR ANY LIKENESS, THAT IS CLEAR] OF WHAT IS IN HEAVEN ABOVE OR ON THE EARTH OR BENEATH.....
You should follow Jesus teaching and not Paul and the Romans and the churches. THE TEACHING OF THE CHURCHES ARE NOT JESUS TEACHING.
God bless you.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 08/10/07 16:50
A: Sam,
Because there were too many contradictions and I had more questions than answers is the reason why I decided to join the New Age movement.It gave me more freedom to learn about religion and faith and then I could think and decide for myself what I felt is the right spiritual path for me.Without judgement I made my choices.
Name:sam •
Date: 08/12/07 1:57
A: Hi Panluna,
You said, "Because there were too many contradictions and I had more questions than answers is the reason why I decided to join the New Age movement."
---- There are so many groups and movement, evolved from the original church, which was started two thouthand years ago by Paul and his supporters from Greeks and Romans, which developed different teaching from what came by the prophet Jesus [at His time there was no Christianity- just a simple religion, to worship God]. Today there are many movements in America and we can say the same about many other countries in the world, no one knows how many are there.
On the other hand we witness many educated christians who left the churches to join the evolution movement, or to become followers to Buddha and Krishna and others.
All that happen, because the people today have some freedom by breaking the chains of the churches, and they are more educated and knowledgable, so they can analyze what they read. The Bible and the Gospels are full of contradiction and errors [I don't know if know this fact?], adding to that the change of some churchs to become like a big circus, run by people who need more people in to make more $$$, just one example "the sciencetology church". Full article about them on th net.
At 11pm last night, I tured to the VISION chanell, and here is the program by {JOHN HAGEE MINESTERY}. A huge church with a big stage all in red carpet, and thousands of followers.
20 minutes Mr. Hagee was talking about his childhood, and the people are laughing and having good time, then he said "we are conqueror" and talking about the other religion (xxx), then he brought up what came by Paul, ROMANS 8:28..... ,and the greatness of Paul and God, and about Jesus death and His ascent to heaven in body and the conversation between Him and God and saying things as if he was with them!!!. After that the usual add for theit CD & DVD and books, and asking people to be generous.....
The Christians for 1400 year are theaching their people to hate Muslims and Jews, and telling them lies about the teaching of Islam, until their brains were completely washed, and the last example is what came from the pope in Germany few months ago, and the carecature that published in Denemark, and many others. All spreading lies about the prophet Muhammad and Islam, and none of them really studied the religion.
Muslim they do not go to that low level, and they respect the religion of Moses and Jesus which is the religion that came from God in Islam.
Not all the Bible is the word of God, and not all what came in the gospels are the word of God, but all what came in the Quran are the word of God, an what came from scientific informations which been proven to be true are witness to its authenticity.
You should judge the religion by it is books and the book , the word of God suppose to be true and perfect.
God bless you.
Name:Anchorite •
Date: 02/02/08 1:37
A: No
MLH
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 06/15/08 15:04
A: .
Hi Sam! Long time no see ... (type).
I've been wanting to ask you about a book. Dr. Tabor reviews it on his site. The review made me think of you right away.
I quote from Dr. Tabor's site :
" May 4, 2008 How Jesus Became Christian
by Dr. J. Tabor :
I want to highly, even extravagantly, recommend a book by Barrie Wilson, York University professor in Toronto, titled How Jesus Became Christian (New York: St. Martins Press, 2008; Random House in Canada).
I will go so far as to say that I judge this single book to be one of the most important contributions to an understanding of Christian Origins published in many decades.
Prof. Wilson’s book represents an absolute “sea change” in our understanding of how one moves from the historical Jesus (Jewish Prophet, Charismatic Healer, Teacher, Messiah figure), to the new religion called Christianity, created by the apostle Paul and given a definitive stamp of approval by what became the “standard story” of Christian Origins preserved in Luke-Acts.
Books that explore the “From Jesus to Paul” theme are quite common in the scholarly field :
1. From Jesus to Paul (Klausner);
2. The Mythmaker: Paul and the Invention of Christianity (Maccoby);
3. From Jesus to Christ (Paula Fredrikson);
4. From Jesus to Christianity (Michael White);
5. Paul: Founder of Christianity (Lüdemann); and
6. Paul the Convert : The Apostolate and Apostasy of Saul the Pharisee (Segal), to name a few more recent titles. "
--END OF QUOTE--
I had to read no.1 for a course on Paul in the 1980s when I was an exegesis student near the city of Montreal.
I think I will buy this book.
I know you probably have already...
Thank you for your insight, as an Eastern Mediterreanian man, one who was brought up Christian, one who is a devout Muslim now. Your vast knowledge and vomprehensive posts are sometime a lot to take in, but when I have the time, I try my best to keep up with you and I do learn from you.
Your past remarks about the split in theology between Jesus and Paul made me sit up and take note of this book, when I read Dr. Tabor's review.
Shoukran.
Indie
.
Name:Sassy •
Date: 06/15/08 18:31
A: I think the reason Jesus' mother Mary is so exalted to an 'almost' goddess by the cath church is because the feminine of God was suppressed/ignored. There is a saying, a Chinese one I think it is? about how one can suppress the feminine for a time, but that She will bob to the surface again.
To convert pagans, the Christians sort of took over pagan holidays, and because the 'mother goddess' was always important to pagans, they knew they had a hard sell with an all-male god.
So due to trying to suppress the divine feminine, she 'popped up' in the form of the Virgin Mary. Are psyches demand balance of some kind. And wisdom is called 'she' in the old testament.
So at least the catholic church has given us a symbol for our time, as regards the divine fem - in Jesus' mother Mary. she may be in a more demoted form, but She has all the ancient goddess mother titles such as Queen of Heaven and Mother of God and because she's a perpetual 'virgin'. All mother goddesses were also perpetual virgins - though this was seen symbolically. The catholics also have a lot of female saints, too.
so I dont think 'praying' to the Virgin Mary is really such an 'evil' thing - it's like someone is reaching out to the Fem of God - thats likely where the prayers get directed !
:-D
but no, for the most part, to ge to the title of this thread, the churches don't on the whole represent Jesus' teachings. they are more the teachings of Paul. Otherwise, women might have been allowed 'in' as priests and so on. like some of the gnostics did - had women priests and even bishops.
goes- to a page by Dr. Tabor, on a book about the Jesus-Paul divide in the history of Church formation.
I thought of you when I saw Dr. Tabor's book review.
Talk to you soon.
Indie
.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 07/01/08 3:57
A: .
Sam,
Do you think you will buy this book (mentionned above)?
If you read it, will you post your reactions to it?
Thanks,
Indie
.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 07/08/08 17:14
A: .
Sam, are you okay?
Further surgeries?
Or, happily enjoying summer?
