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Name: ron •
Title: Archaeological Institute of America Disputes Claims •
Date posted: 03/02/07 22:17
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Q: "To conclude, the identification of the Talpiyot tomb as the tomb of Jesus and his family contradicts the canonical Gospel accounts of the death and burial of Jesus and the earliest Christian traditions about Jesus. This claim is also inconsistent with all of the available information - historical and archaeological--about how Jews in the time of Jesus buried their dead, and specifically the evidence we have about poor, non-Judean families like that of Jesus. It is a sensationalistic claim without any scientific basis or support."
http://www.archaeological.org/webinfo.php?page=10408
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Name: Mark-Tao •
Date: 03/02/07 22:58 |
A: The idea that the family of Jesus could not have built such a tomb becaue they were poor is false. If Jesus had only been a carpenter and never traveled, then maybe that argument would hold. But he was the leader of a revolutionary movement.
The book of Acts talks about how Judas had been in charge of the money and says was guilty of keeping some for himself. So obviously there was money available to Jesus and his followers.
The upper room, where the last supper occured, would not have been available to a poor person. I'm not suggesting that Jesus paid for the use of the room, just that it is an example of his access to things of value.
The wealthy man's tomb that Jesus was said to have been laid in is also an examle of the resources that were available to Jesus and his followers.
The cloak that had to be given away by casting lots because it was too nice to tear, was an example of someone who had access to wealth.
There are plenty of reasons to think that the family of Jesus could have afforded such a tomb.
As for the location, Jerusalem was said to be the headquarters of the Apostles. In Paul's writings he talks about going to Jerusalem to consult with Peter. If Jesus had a wife and child, it is plausible that they would remain in or around Jerusalem after his death. That is where the Apostles were, no one disputes that.
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Name: voiceofsanity •
Date: 03/02/07 23:41 |
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A: Come on Ron!! Give us a break! If your claim is "because the Bible says so, it must be so" is so full of hockey that it makes me sick that intelligent people are unable to weigh evidence and think!
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Name: Schwar3Kat •
Date: 03/03/07 1:27 |
A: I am an athiest, but I despise poor science.
Ron is correct, not because the Bible says so, but because the historical evidence says so. We are reasonably confident that Mary was buried in Gethsemane as there is a large body of historical evidence for this.
We are also confident that Joseph was buried in Gallilee when Jesus was a young boy (we are not so sure when).
We also know that the almost illegible scrawl translated Jesus on one of the plain undecorated ossuarys that contained more than one set of bones is wishful thinking and looks a bit like Hanan. Why would Jesus be in the plain ossuary.
Add to this the extremely amateur attempt at statistics, the irrelevant DNA testing and the carefully worded hype and we have a hoax.
This Talpiot hoax is not even original. The BBC did exactly the same thing in 1996 with exactly the same data and a slightly more scientific presentation. The scientific and archeological community at the time laughed at these claims and nothing has changed.
Accurate statistical analysis which takes into account the known historical facts will arrive at something like 1000000 to 1 or worse that this is Jesus ossuary.
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Name: Mark-Tao •
Date: 03/03/07 16:43 |
A: Schwar3Kat • Date: 03/02/07 20:27
Junk Science?
"We are reasonably confident that Mary was buried in Gethsemane as there is a large body of historical evidence for this."
Catholics believe Mary took her body to Heaven with her. You say she's burried in Gethsemane. I think you and the Catholics have about the same amount of evidence for your claims.
"We are also confident that Joseph was buried in Gallilee when Jesus was a young boy (we are not so sure when)."
No one knows what happened to Joseph. There is not one bit of evidence that can give you "confidence" about what happened to Joseph.
As for the story not being new, the documentary talks about how the ossuaries were first discovered years ago and considered, at the time, to have no connection to the Jesus of the bible. It's not an issue that the documentary tries to dodge.
I don't know about Atheism; it's not my thing. But as for junk science, be careful what you despise.
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Name: golfdane •
Date: 03/03/07 21:33 |
A: "Archaeology is a scientific discipline." she writes......
And she then goes on to disprove things using the gospels as they were facts.
She also assumes that Jesus was poor... Not very scientific.
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Name: exact55 •
Date: 03/04/07 4:40 |
A: Unfortunately almost all of the historical evidence surrounding Jesus is religious. This includes the burial place of Mary.
The evidence that she was buried in a tomb in Gethsemane comes from a very large number of religious historical sources both Catholic and gnostic. The Catholics however believe that she was raised from the tomb at the assumtion.
As regards Joseph - he was resident in Galilee all of his life until Jesus was about twelve. It is highly unlikely though not impossible that his remains would have found themselves in Jerusalem a decade or more later.
I have to say that I am disapointed that there is no new evidence since 1996 because I was very excited when I first heard the news. I was particularly keen to hear the DNA evidence - what a let down.
By the way I am not religious and believe that all religions are deluded.
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Name: golfdane •
Date: 03/04/07 9:44 |
A: @Exact55:
You wrote: "As regards Joseph - he was resident in Galilee all of his life until Jesus was about twelve. It is highly unlikely though not impossible that his remains would have found themselves in Jerusalem a decade or more later. "
So what? The Jose ossuary isn't necessarily one containing Jesus' father. It might be his brother Joses, although one would wonder why his ossuary doesn't say "Jose, son of Joseph".
My point is, you shouldn't dismiss evidence just because it doesn't fit the gospels. The gospels are not an undisputed historical source. There are plenty of independent historical sources, but not that many that mentions Jesus (and those that do, are highly contested as for them to be unedited and authentic in their entirety). Curiously enough, major events like Herod's murder of the innocents, isn't mentioned in non christian sources (as far as I know).
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Name: exact55 •
Date: 03/04/07 11:10 |
A: @Golfdane
You are absolutely correct about Joseph, I was a bit blinkered not to recognise that it could be the brother. And I agree with your other comments as well.
The reason I don't like these claims is because they are packaged in a way that is very similar to the way religions present their cases, embelishing the facts to make them look more probable and hiding the parts that hurt their cause. It reminds me of the creation 'science' movement. The difference of course is the motivation.
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Name: golfdane •
Date: 03/04/07 12:15 |
A: @Exact55
Well, claims are just that. They are opinions based on speculation. Sure, Cameron et al doesn't shake on their hands when they launch their thesis, when in fact they should, considering the importance the issue has to many. I sure hope the scientific foundation is valid and as conclusive as it can be.
The actual evidence released, is lacking in groundbreaking detail. And no matter how logical a conclusion might be, is that not a guarantee, that it is right (Occam's razor isn't always right).
I doubt the style of the documentary will be much different in than some of the christian documentaries I've seen. Nothing like narrated screenplay to whip up some emotional support....
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Name: QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/27/12 0:52 |
A: .
Jan 26th, 2012
Thursday evening.
Hello Friends.
I caught the tail end of the NOVA presentation last night entitled "Mystery of a Masterpiece".
A portrait of an Italian girl is put under the loop in this documentary.
Presented are the various ways historians, art specialists, hair-style historiannes, infrared photographers and others come together to try to determine if the portrait was done by Leonardo DaVinci.
It is a good example of how it takes time and the input of many from different fields to determine the origine of an artifact.
It re-airs late Saturday night on PBS (at 1 a.m.).
After all the various specialist weigh in, many still hold that the portrait is not authentic. But, like Talpiot, the evidence is compelling.
Bon cinéma.
Indie
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Name: QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/28/12 14:03 |
A: .
Can't wait to watch "Mystery of a Masterpiece", about scientific research on a portrait believed to be by Leonardo DaVinci.
That the super religious and endoctrinated of the world may see the exegetical light and the input of science into religion, is my paryer.
Indie
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Name: QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/29/12 18:36 |
A: .
Sunday January 29th 2012
Hello Friends,
I have now seee the NOVA, National Geographic Special on the portrait of a teenaged girl some claim is by Leonardo DaVinci.
In 1998, it went on sale at the Christie's Auction house.
It was bid on by Peter Silverman, a collector.
It went to another bidder for 22 000 $.
It goes on sale again a few years later, for 22 000$.
His hunch is that was not done in the 1800s, but during the Renaissance (the 14 and 15 hundreds).
Sylverman has Renaissance specialists look at it and they are divided.
Some say it seems to have been done by a Renaissance master.
Others do not.
Sylverman takes the portrait to Paris to determine the age of the animal skin it is drawn on (the vellum). Carbon 14 dating shows the vellum to be of an animal that was alive between 1440 and 1650.
....Leonardo DaVinci was alive between 1452 and 1519.
Fake works of art have been created using materials that are very old.
The documentary then shows an art historian creating a fake Monet painting, using the canvas of an old, but worthless painting.
The historian removes the paint from the old canvas.
He then paints a Monet-look-alike.
But is Sylverman's purchase of a portrait that is as old as the skin it is drawn on?
Infrared photography will show the layers of portrait.
Infrared filters reveal 13 levels of depth of wavelength.
It is shown that changes were made to the outline of the girl's forehead, next and chin as the drawing began.
These alterations are consistent with 'drawing habits' of a Renaissance artist : Leonardo DaVinci!
The next specialist consulted knows the drawing habits of painters who were students of DaVinci. This specialist also shows that the portrait show signs of left-handed pen strokes. DaVinci was left-handed.
Next, a fingerprint is found, but proves impossible to link to DaVinci, because it is a partial print. This is confirmed by a master in fingerprint identification in Switzerland. (and 40 of his colleagues)
There is nothing unusual about the print.
Next, is to have the drawing recreated, in order to discover what is took to create the image. A further art specialist recreating the portrait, an anatomy teacher, says the artist of the portrait is someone who knows anatomy.
This specialist confirms that the portrait is an unusual combination of materials, something that DaVinci was known for. (DaVinci's Last Supper is one such example...)
This specialist says the portrait is done by a master.
Next, the girl in the portrait is looked at. Her hair is attached in a particular way, that a costume historianne can place to the royal family in Milan, within a period of a few years : 1491 to 1499.
DaVinci was in Milan, working from 1482 to 1499 for this royal family.
Next, historians must identify the actual member of this royal family who might be represented in the portrait.
An illegitimate daughter of Milan's most powerful man, and DaVinci's boss, fits the age of the girl in the 1490s; Bianca Sforza, the girl, was married in 1496.
Next, cuttings and marks on the edge of the animal skin lead to the theory that the portrait was cut out of a book. The specialists staying aware of the work being done on the portrait then say their is a book in Poland on Bianca Sforza.
The research team then go to Warsaw. A 500 year old book would have gone from Milan to Poland in 1518, with a princess who married a Polish King.
Next, experts on how the book was bound photograph the binding of the book. The computer images map the series of 6 double-sided pages that are sewn together.
The first section in the book has a missing page.
Next, the stitching of the book are shown to line up perfectly with markings on the edge of the portrait.
The portrait seems to have come from this book.
It seems to be a lost portrait of Bianca Sforza.
Sylverman, the owner of the 22 000$ portrait has been
offered 80 000 000 $ for the portrait.
Sylverman declined to sell the portrait.
NOW, I as a 'member' of this forum, still await news that the IAA (the Israeli Antiquity Authority) will allow access to Talpiot's famous tomb, so that specialists from many, many different fields can shed new light on the tomb.
And, like the little girl in the movie Something To Talk About, when speaking to her grand-father of her refusal to take 'no' for an answer to her request to ride, not a pony, but a horse, says :
"I am just about running out of patience with you people!"
What I mean is : when in tarnation is access to the tomb in Talpiot going to be granted by the IAA?!!
Indie (Matt Gutierrez)
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Name: vvk •
Date: 04/06/12 3:55 |
A: Earliest resurrection symbols found?
CNN|Added on April 5, 2012A filmmaker claims a tomb in Jerusalem housed the earliest symbols of Christianity. CNN's Matthew Chance reports
http://www.cnn.com/video/?hpt=hp_t3#/video/world/-2012/04/05/chance-israel-christian-tomb-found.cnn-
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Name: vvk •
Date: 04/06/12 16:55 |
A: US and Canadian Television World Premieres on April 12th, 2012
Airs on Discovery in the US as:
The Resurrection Tomb Mystery
Airs on Vision TV in Canada as: V VISION ZOOMER TELEVISION
The Jesus Discovery
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Name: QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 05/01/12 8:34 |
A: .
Hello V
Thank you for the info on the new tomb research.
On this site, there is a link to this new 'excavation' using a robotic camera.
http://thejesusdiscovery.org/
This site has a short video of Dr. Tabor and Simca, talking about the drawings on the bone boxes.
The drawings, ostensibly, are the earliest 'written recort' of Christians.
The drawings pre-date the writing of most of the New Testament.
If the find is authentic, it establishes an early belif in resurrection.
Since the 'Jesus Tomb' caused many to get hot under the collar and feel that resurrection was under 'attack' , the exploration of this othe Talpiot tomb, with a 'Jonah-resurrection' image seems to be the perfect answer to the questions raised by the Jesus Family tomb 'names cluster'.
What Simcha said in 2007 is true :
- the 2000 or so bone boxes, used over a 100 year period covering Jess' lifetime, constitute a veritable phone book for when Jesus was alive.
- we should assume that information on bone boxes should yeild more insight into the first century of Christianity.
The look-see, using a robotic camera, into yet another Talpiot tomb, seems indeed to confirm that Simcha is correct in his assumption.
The 'record' on the bone boxes is and should continue to be invaluable.
If the 'Jonag drawing' is a 1st century Christian resurrection representation, then theologians will be publishing oudles of books in the next months and 'going to town' theologically over this artifact pointing to a primitive belief in resurrection.
Indie
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