Name:R. Prophet •
Title: BELIEF IS STRONGER THAN TRUTH •
Date posted: 03/03/07 17:21
Q: I applaud the great efforts to bring this information to the public and I personally am delighted someone has the courage to present these findings. However, people are so brainwashed from birth that they are unwilling to hear or see anything that may makes them think or even question the validity of their own beliefs no matter how wrong they may be. They sit smugly in their churches on Sunday (the day of the Pagan Sun God), and listen to every word spoken and not once in a lifetime do they even try to verify or prove what they are told. Religion is power and those in charge will never give up the money and power to allow any discussion much less truth to stand in their way. Remember Galileo and his fate for speaking truth to tyranny.
Name:Santiago •
Date: 03/04/07 13:52
A: I was not brainwashed from birth, have questioned everything as my IB education has dictated, and I come to the conclusion that this "discovery" is false, aimed at discrediting fundamental Christianity.
Name:pat440 •
Date: 03/05/07 6:04
A: I find it funny if not interesting that you believed these were "great efforts." And by the way, I don't sit smuggly in church on Sunday (the Lord's day), rather, I sit as a man who has no value whatsoever. Why? -- you may ask--because I am a sinner just like you, and I can bring nothing to God on my own merit. I'm not good enough, are you? You think that because I'm a Christian, I don't ever question my TRUST in Jesus; think again. I have doubted many times, but TRUTH sets me free. You want truth- look at Jesus Christ. He made the lame walk, the deaf hear, the blind see, raised the dead, and oh yea, walked on water. Truth has never stood in the way of Jesus Christ, He PROCLAIMED to be TRUTH. (John 14:6) go ahead and read it, He might change your life. Are you willing to believe every "FACT FIND" out there just because its "scientific?" That's not logical, that's gulliable. Even Galileo trusted in Christ. His science didn't separate him from the miraculous supernatural, it just separated him from the Roman Catholic church which is not even an accurate picture of the church written about in the New Testament. The question of the hour is this: Did this documentary PROVE absolute that this tomb is the tomb of Jesus? Absolutely not.
Name:bigpundaddy •
Date: 03/05/07 6:17
A: HA HA Belief you say. Well I suppose once DNA is done with John the Baptist bones that the Church has I suppose truth will not mean anything.. Or if they prove he had a child.
Name:bigpundaddy •
Date: 03/05/07 6:20
A: Also pat the name of the Show was the LOST TOMB OF JESUS.... So I am assuming they didn't say Found yet. When they do you will know.
Name:KRS •
Date: 03/05/07 6:31
A: Actually, I am a fundamentalist (self admitted) who has studied out the origins of my faith. I question this not merely on the grounds of my conclusions, but due to the errors underlying the work. One example is that a major element of their identification is the supposition that Mark 6:3 says that Jesus had a brother named Yose. However, this analysis is based on a scribal error, Mark probably wrote either Yosetos or Yoseph (I lean towards Yoseph, the UBS committee, who edited the standard scholarly edition think it was Yosetos). Yose is primarily found in inferior manuscript copies of the New Testament. Another problem is that they are uncritical in their use of literary sources - few scholars find the Nag Hammadi texts to be useful for understand anything of the life of Jesus, but they use these works uncritically in identifying their Mary Magdalene.
Frankly, as a New Testament scholar, I'm rather astounded at the level of error present in the work - these guys clearly don't know the sources they are working with very well. Incidentally, don't assume that because you are not a believer that you are somehow unbiased. My experience has been that the people discussing the issues with your level of ad hominum approach are often the least educated in the real meat of the issues, and the most likely to choose conclusions that fit their worldview.
Name:Jim •
Date: 03/05/07 13:00
A: The “Smugness” that R.Prophet is supposing is quite a dichotomy; on one hand, he is presenting a valid argument on some historical facts concerning "In Solis in Victu;" on the other, he is assuming the role of a smug person of knowledge—the very mindset he is contesting. I pose the question of his belief system; does he stem from a background of in-depth theological study by which to compare with the scientific, or one who has been fed “Scientific” vantage points all his life, and thus succumbed to one-sided brainwashing? I feel for those that he is addressing (myself included), for it is easy to become disillusioned and taken in by one’s desire to believe.
Within my own church, I have encountered individuals that acknowledge the validity of an argument, but choose to maintain their position because the assumption led them to believe such and such, and questioning the idea jeopardizes their faith. This type of mindset is dangerous, for though it may keep one in a particular thought process, it blocks growth and spiritual maturity. In essence, it is willful ignorance and may even lead one into destruction:
Mt 15:9, “But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.”
Hsa 4:6, “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.”
Concerning the Sunday slam that R.Prophet mentioned, what the individual is saying has some validity. For example, I have studied Sabbatarian Christianity (belief in the 7th Day Sabbath as a valid day set aside to worship and reflect) for many years and have uncovered quite a few tidbits. The fact remains that hundreds of Scriptures (both old and new testaments) mention the Jewish Sabbath timeframe, but only about nine allude to another day. Jesus also said that He was “Lord of the Sabbath” (Mt 12:8, Mr 2:28, Lu 6:5) and that “…from one new moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD” (Is 66:23) at His second coming. Paul reasoned with Jew and Gentile alike on the Sabbath and even went out of the city to make prayer (Acts 13:14, 13:42, 16:13, 17:2, and 18:4). The book of Hebrews also makes mention of the “7th” day:
Heb 4:4, 9-10, “For he spake in a certain place of the seventh [day] on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works… There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God [did] from his.”
Hebrew’s analogy shows the connection between the physical cessation from work (Sabbath) and the Spiritual implications when all things are finished.
Most people believe in the validity of the Ten Commandments, but either remove the 4th or reassign it to Sunday. It is a known fact that most of Christendom observes Sunday in honor the resurrection, being the 1st day of the week. How can the 7th be the 1st? Who are we to hallow or denigrate? God sanctified the Sabbath at creation, having not assigned the day to any race of people (i.e., Jews), but for all mankind:
Gen 2:3, “And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it:”
Truth is, Sunday observance is an extrapolation of such NT scriptures as the 8th day appearances of Jesus, breaking bread on the 1st day of the week (which is the evening of the 7th-at sunset), and the assumption that Rev 1:10 means something other than “The great and terrible day of the Lord.” If one reads the entirety of Revelations, the message jives with over 300 other scriptures declaring the return of Christ with His mighty army, not a “Holy day.”
Further, Constantine (a devoted sun worshiper), wanted to separate his idea of Christianity from anything remotely Jewish, and formed the Council of Nicea, in 325 AD to address some of these concerns. Some of his other issues also included changing the Passover service (Easter celebration) from Nisan 14 to the 1st Sunday following Passover or the Vernal equinox to coincide with his devotion to pagan fertility rites. He was in contention with the Quartodecimans over this issue (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quartodecimanism) and made celebrations of the day into what is now Easter, by law. Though many revere the Emperor in a positive light, a little research will divulge that he was alleged to have only been converted (by baptism) on his deathbed, begging the question whether he was a true convert or not (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_I).
That being said, Christ saves by the free gift of grace, meaning that the observance of a day does not really amount to a hill of beans. Paul made this clear:
Col 2:16 “Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]:”
Rom 14:6,10, 12 “He that regardeth the day, regardeth [it] unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard [it]…But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.”
My thought is that Sabbath observance is an outward manifestation of a spiritual offering of obedience and humility before God. I do not think we should cast stones at one another because one may esteem a day, and another may not . These kinds of ideas present a legalistic attitude that causes many to place a yoke of bondage around our own necks, as well as others. Jesus came to the sinners to save us “in our sins,” meaning that we are all screwed up, but that’s OK. He taught us to love God and one another and called this the greatest of the commandments (Mt 22:36-40). This forum is a good benchmark to uncovering some possible truths in this world. If they are identified to be false, then we are the stronger for facing it and proving all things.
Ja 2:18, “Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.”
Name:wygantsh •
Date: 03/05/07 13:53
A: DEAR JIM AND R.Prophet: Jim has some very good points in that worshipping God on a Sunday for most people isn't because its Sunday it is because as a society we agreed to pick one day a week to relax and pray and sing together and support each others faith. I would be just as happy doing this on Monday or Tuesday or Saturday. There are no days outside of time once your soul is accelerated past the speed of light and you can travel as fast as an angel from one point in the galaxy to another millions of miles away.
Churches and religion are very valuable spiritual tools and resources and a place of giving to one another the gifts of pray and music and a lot of beautiful souls do not wish to delve into these questions because it isn't important to them, for many of them ALREADY live a life of purity, love and honor towards God and have no need to find the answers to every question.
The whole point of Jesus's ressurection wasn't to make his body disappear or leave it behind or for us to argue over which one occured it is simply for us to learn that his ressurection happened BEFORE (transfiguration) he was killed and buried and that by the power of the Holy Spirit and the help of Jesus we TOO can be ressurected before our physical bodies expire.
Name:Elijah •
Date: 03/07/07 20:56
A: Dear Everyone,
I wish we could all come to worship God Everyday. Eveyday should be a day of worship to Him, but it's true that He set aside the Sabbath (the 7th day) for man to have a date with God. He sanctified it and made it Holy and it was so important to Him that it's the 4th commandment of God's perfect Law of love. There is no footnote or exception. It's the 4th commandment. I pray that if you read this, you can search The Bible for the answer.
Name:guitarman001 •
Date: 03/08/07 1:55
A: I could not have said it better Mr Prophet. First, for me, the last 3 years were spent reading specifically about the bible, church and jesus history. I am catholic and NOT attending church sundays. It seem to me that people are looking for truth by consulting the wrong person. If you really want the truth ask or read about history. Make sure there is a DR. before the name and or make sure that the books you consult have a bibliographie at the end. You will see that some of the fancy jesus and church story that were thought to people for centurie are inacurate or too ambiguous to be true or... false. Mary Magdalene is one good example. I could go on and on here. By pressure of the scholars the Vatican finally admited that Mary Magdalene was not a prostitute. Tradition is often confused with real history. Ask historians.
I agree that there is a lot of misleading stuff out. People that want to do soul searching should be careful. Get as many source as you can!!!!! Then..... you will be able to make a better portrait of the jesus thing.
As far as ethic and spiritual value that someone mention... I simply suggest that you don't need to go to church to be spritual and have good value. Just look at asian people. They do not believe in jesus but they believe in buddah. And yet, they have good values overall. Even in the new testament when jesus goes in the desert, alone, meditating without drinking and eating.
My anwser to KRS:
quote "My experience has been that the people discussing the issues with your level of ad hominum approach are often the least educated in the real meat of the issues, and the most likely to choose conclusions that fit their worldview." end of quote.
I think a statement like this is just lame. Take two top scientist that work in the same field of research and have them discuss an technical question and offten they will disagree. That does not mean one is dummer than the other. This only mean they have a different perspective about things. Having said this, some of the greatest discovery were accomplished this way. Look at Einstien!
It is interesting to see different people's view. By civilized argumenting
I see brains are thinking.... that is completely healthy for your inner spirit.
have a good day everyone!
Name:MEJKP •
Date: 03/08/07 2:15
A: "As far as ethic and spiritual value that someone mention... I simply suggest that you don't need to go to church to be spritual and have good value. Just look at asian people. They do not believe in jesus but they believe in buddah. And yet, they have good values overall. Even in the new testament when jesus goes in the desert, alone, meditating without drinking and eating." This is quoting guitarman001.
True, there are people who are "good" without going to church or spiritual without going to church, but there are different kinds of spirituality. The spirituality you mention that Buddhists have is quite different from Christian spirituality (by the way, there are many Asians who are Christians, just as there are many non-Asians who are Buddhists. Look at South Korea, for example - lots of Christians there. There's also quite a large underground church in China). I'm not going to go into the specifics here, but Buddhist spiritualism, from what I understand, is focussing more on one's self and moving on to the next life and with karma. Christian spirituality focusses on one's relationship with God and with eternal life. No need to work through things on our own power with Christian spirituality. Jesus paid the price already. Yes, Christians are called to serve God and to focus on our relationships with Him and to serve people here on earth, but we're not called to focus just on self.
About the meditation that you mentioned that Jesus did - it wasn't the kind of meditation that Hindus or Buddhists or others do. Rather, it was a concious focussing on Scripture and on the word of God, and wasn't an effort to completely empty His mind or soul of all things. Yes, he fasted, but there's nothing wrong with that. I didn't see anyone refuting fasting, and it is a good thing to do as a part of Christian spirituality as a way to focus on God and on His Word.
Name:chemba •
Date: 03/10/07 3:30
A: You are exactly correct. But the people who are enjoying the worldly life and thinking it is a permanent one can’t understand the reality. Anyone can talk anything in their well being and in their young hood. They should not forget the day will come to face a bad situation. At that time nobody will come to rescue them. They will live in hell. Heaven and hell are not at bottom and in sky. It is that how live in this world. For that belief is more important than truth. Truth is not a palatable one. We need more courage to face them.
Jesus said that you can’t serve God and worldly life. These two things entirely different and opposite things.
Name:Achaney •
Date: 03/11/07 6:08
A: Belief is just a tactic of the church. Truth is stronger than belief. It is just like the Mormons; which claim that American Indians come from some Hebrew family, in which migrated to the ancient americas. But when scientist did there dna test to TEST the Claims of the mormons, the mormons were told they were wrong, So the Mormons turned around and said are belief is stronger than the truth!
That is just hilarious. This so called belief, is called blind faith. Believing in something that you dont see. I see a statue in my room and I am going to believe in it because it is truth, it is simply there to be seen.
Because of tradition or relious upbringing it is easy for someone to dismiss truth simply because it denies there belief. Unseen belief or believing in something you dont see, should be something regulated by the secret service as being counterfeit! It's time to get a grip on reality and start facing the facts that Jesus was a man and not a messiah (heavenly messiah). I use to be a minister and kept noticing the fudge workings, patch ups, and holes in the bible as well as raising hands to the roof as if I was at a rap concert!
Protestants are capitalists and all they talk about before church and after church is money and fund for the church, but yet I would see poor families go to the church (where the pastor makes $3,000 to as much as $6,000 a month, yes, this is true) and be told to go to the local mission if they have one!! It makes me sick. When I was a minister, I worked a job, just like Paul did in the new testament, and I would donate bibles and give my time to those in need.
I have a family too!
Name:Jim •
Date: 03/13/07 8:17
A: Dear Achaney,
I genuinely feel for what you are saying. In much of my youth, I witnessed more corruption within the confines of “organized” religion than I can remember. Letters from the organization asking my already financially strained father for more cash…even to the point of recommending that people take out second mortgages to keep the “church” afloat—sickening! My mother claiming to be a good Christian, but secretly cheating on my father with his best friend at a religious retreat! Televangelists throwing “Spirit baseballs” before thousands and asking for donations while wearing expensive Italian suits and sporting Rolexes! I was so traumatized by religion (my parents were opposite faiths and they often used me against one another), that I actually prayed to Lucifer for any way out. At the final straw, I attempted a more severe form of suicide (previous attempts unsuccessful) by cutting my wrists…oh yes my friend, I understand your position.
One thing that always seemed to surface, however, was my communication with God. Even in my darkest hour of appealing to the dark angel, my conscience was calling to God in unspoken desperation. I began reading my bible in private (I had told both parents to screw off and ceased the church effort) and my road to knowledge was born. I attacked Scripture from a different vantage point; one of letting “it” appeal to me without many preconceived notions often relied upon through church associations. Besides the “warm fuzzy” that I began to receive while pursuing the true identity of God, my mind was opened to proving everything I read via secular sources; reemphasizing what I was reading to be of considerable merit.
In today’s world, most people would rather be spoon fed what to believe rather than make the effort themselves, which is against Scriptural mandates:
1Th 5:21, “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.”
Further, many would rather hold on to a pre-conceived theological notion because it represents what they chose to believe, vice actually letting the context of what scripture is saying actually speak for itself. Without moving into the many beliefs that several take as gospel, but actually contradict what is written, I will instead make the point that you may be correct about the many “holes” you found within your belief system. I ask you, though, were these holes actually contained within the scripture, or was it based upon some of the traditional ideas of Christianity?
For example, I have a dear church friend of mine that contested a valid scriptural argument with the rebuttal that “I don’t agree because that’s what convinced my wife to accept [his form of belief] and come to church.” This argument holds no water, but does prove the point that many are willfully eager to accept an incorrect understanding of scripture to support their chosen lifestyle. Unfortunately, this mindset causes people to remain in the dark and allows little room for growth. I suspect that people feel that they have to somehow protect their belief system because if what they hold to be true turns out to be false, then it creates a lack of faith, thus causing panic and eventual spiritual death. Truth needs no defense!
I like how you bring up the valid argument of how people forsake truth for their chosen belief. I can choose to believe that I can fly, but if I jump…SPLAT! Just because I choose to believe something does not make it so. You believe that Jesus was only a man, but you must admit that He was quite in tune with the nature of mankind, unique actually. He even foretold how people would react to Him, especially concerning the forsaking of truth for a lie:
Mt 15:3, 9, “But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?...But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.”
His Apostles also addressed the issue of willful ignorance, especially in the last days:
2Pe 3:4, “And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant…”
Willful ignorance is a prelude to destruction, not unlike my mother-in-law’s decision to avoid seeing a doctor for fear that she might have Breast cancer. In the end, she had the disease and her willful ignorance caused her to seek attention only after it was way too late to save her from a horrible and painful death.
Hsa 4:6, “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.”
You say that truth is stronger than belief and I completely agree; here is some truth for you:
The book of Daniel is estimated to have been written decades before the events that transpired where he accurately forecasted the successive empires of Babylon, Greece, Medo-Persia and Rome. Some scholars and Theologians have tried to claim that the book was written post-facto, but most disagree with this position.
Ezekiel forecasted the land of Israel returning to their homeland (Valley of Dry Bones prophecy, Eze 34), which has been partially fulfilled. (In the future, after the Messiah’s return, a literal resurrection is expected to take place, but that is another matter). This happened centuries later…where did he get this information?
The Psalms and the prophets foretold of a man called the Son of God, who would be pierced, beaten, scarred, bruised, rejected, despised of men with His bones out of place and his ribs exposed, His garments being gambled for, etc., (Ps 22, Is 53). History validates this prophecy and even Josephus confirms the event.
How about science?
Job, one of the oldest books in the bible, accurately described the earth as being suspended in the heavens. Suspended by what? Did they have satellite imagery back then?:
Job 26:7, “He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, [and] hangeth the earth upon nothing.”
How about God warning the people to abstain from blood and fat (serious health concerns only known in the recent age) or the fact that the life in in the blood (did the people of 4,000 years ago know about hemoglobin, DNA, etc.?).
Archeologists use the bible to validate certain finds and time period and is considered an essential element in performing these tasks.
We know that water is essential to life as we know it, yet the book of Genesis describes the earth in its chaotic state as having water above and below, making it a perfect planet for “colonization??? If you will…
History:
Such secular proofs are found in the writings of Josephus (a Jewish historian), Roman records, and historical events. One may even refer to other religious compilations, such as the Q’uran and Jewish writings, to prove his existence upon the earth (Islam mentions the lineage of Abraham, Yisa (Jesus), and the “people of the book” in favorable light). Why would other religions reference Him if He did not exist?
The test of relevance
The true test of the bible’s authenticity comes by way of prophecy, which represents about 1/3 of total scripture. We have only touched upon a few from the Hebrew texts, but hopefully have established the bible as having some sense of credibility. From there, one need only look once again to the prophetic fulfillment of events to prove Jesus’ Messiahship:
Jesus foretold the destruction of Jerusalem, which happened about 37 years after His death (Mt 24). This event meshes both sacred and secular, proving one another. He accurately predicted His death, including when and how. He also foretold of His church being established and that nothing would hinder it, which is true despite the persecutions and centuries of “lack of proof” (just look at Christianity itself). In fact, the movement was so powerful that Jews were leaving the synagogues in droves. One must ask why? Christians were becoming the target of Roman sport and no end seemed to be in sight, yet convert they did. If Christianity was a lie, then why the martyrdom of so many that had met and associated with Jesus, if in deed He was a fraud? If His disciples were responsible for the empty tomb, knowing full well that He was dead and buried, why die such horrible deaths at the hands of the masters of torture for a falsehood? The only logical conclusion is that something so insane had happened, that they were willing to die for it.
I cannot make anyone believe, but I hope you re-evaluate your Christian position. Jesus never promised an easy way, but instead accurately predicted a harder go of it for His namesake. Sounds to me like you have been there, with hardships and despair, but He is not the cause of these things. Really, we have no hope of anything better in the possible life to come and lose nothing by claiming Him. If it is a lie, so be it (though I truly doubt it) but look upon the precepts that make for a better life. What is wrong with living a meaningful life, doing good unto others, and following the formulas that have proven to be a help in happy marriages (fidelity, courtesy, love)? What is wrong for rendering unto Caesar what is his and keeping the tax man off your back? What is wrong for controlling our evil nature by replacing it with love for your brother, enemies, parents and children? If we are wrong about Christ, then quite possibly we cease to exist and never know the difference anyway, but at least have the tools available to potentially have more fulfilling lives here in the now. If we are right about whom He claims to be, then God help us if we openly bring Him to a shame before men. You were once a minister of the Most High, are you willing to gamble with your golden ticket off of this rock?
By the way, our minister is a humble man that works for USAA as an Insurance salesman. I am on the Board and we are only paying him about $500 per month, which is nothing considering the time he devotes to our welfare and the ministry. Truth is we are a very poor church and only recently picked up an old building to call home. Don’t think I would have it any other way:-)
Name:lady andromeda •
Date: 03/14/07 7:40
A: R.Prophet, I read somewhere:
There is No greater religion than Truth.
That pretty much has become my mantra.
Name:Achaney •
Date: 03/15/07 22:41
A: Hey Jim, you have a pretty good insight into things. As far as the Muslim faith goes, they do mention Jesus, but only as being a man and a great prophet but never dying on the cross.
Maybe I was a little to harsh on the whole financial issue in regards to the christian faith. In truth, I really would like to believe the Christian idea of Jesus (performing miracles, saviour of the world) but I remember something, and it seems to go against the theological understandings of Christians. You see, I remember being born and before being born (not talking about reincarnation) and that is all I am going to say about this part, however, I did find a passage in the Bible that relates to this, you find in Job 33:20-last verse, a Catholic priest told me that I am a, "Lost Article" and never explained this to me. Life is strange.
Does God exist? I can only answer like anyone else. But God has never really been there for me or talked to me. I dont think he ever will, maybe we were created by gods(what some suggest aliens) but life is strange.
Name:vvk •
Date: 03/16/07 5:20
A: Hi Prophet,
I agree with You, all they say just following the Bibble ,but they never think of the bible is misleading from bigining. it started 70 year after Jesus die. a lot of things in Bible are wrong, can't be prove with the scientific.
Name:Mark-Tao •
Date: 03/16/07 13:32
A: Jim,
I read your "Dear Achaney" post, and I have some questions.
First, you did a good job of describing why you turned away from your religion. I grew up with a similar experience of church leaders with constant fund raising programs and parents who were not faithful to each other. I don't understand why you prayed to Lucifer. It sounds like you never really stopped believing, you simply rebelled within the very belief system you were raised with.
When you got to the part in your story where you came to the new understanding that gave you the faith you have today, it didn't match the drama or emotion that drove the first part of your story. It was kinda like you skipped over it. Was there a moment when your life changed, or did it happen gradually, over time?
Lastly, a single sentence jumped out at me as pure politics: "What is wrong for rendering unto Caesar what is his and keeping the tax man off your back?" I don't think rendering unto Ceasar has anything to do with keeping the tax man off your back. Do you believe the laws that govern the general population need to be brought into agreement with your conservative interpretation of the Bible? Do we need a theocratic society?
Thanks, I enjoyed reading your post, though it was long. You do a good job telling your story.
Name:Jim •
Date: 03/29/07 6:54
A: Achaney,
Sorry for the late response, but my I had some computer problems to work out. I don’t agree with the Priest’s interpretation of you being a “Lost article.” That statement implies that you are an item and not a person. Further, I remember seeing a bumper sticker that read, “All who wander are not lost,” which has a sense of truth in the wording. In my opinion, what you are experiencing is a disconnect from your first love, which is the ministry.
I had a very wonderful minister friend of mine who had just completed his first round of Seminary and was supposed to experience being a Pastor for about three years and then return to begin work on his MD. He did a positively wonderful job of ministering and was one of the most humble individuals I have ever met. He could take an often overlooked scripture and make it so personal to each person that it was almost spooky. Anyway, as time went on, the general BS of being a leader began to take a toll on him, where he was expected to constantly work on mundane issues that were always other than ministry (like the example in Acts 6:1-2). As I mentioned earlier, he was my friend and we often skied together and shared our deepest concerns with one another.
He confided that one of his many issues was that he did not “buy into” many of the core doctrines of the church, such as the moderate consumption of alcohol, for example. He often would drink with his fiancé’ or when he would come to my house to play drums while we jammed on Metallica and AC/DC. We had fun, but it had to remain secret, which made him feel like a hypocrite. He left the ministry shortly after I was assigned to another military post and almost went off the deep end with regards to God and his calling. His marriage even fell apart when he discovered that his long-time love was seeing someone on the side. He tried not to blame God, but was having a difficult time not calling Him out. Eventually, however, he picked up the pieces and decided that if he was going to minister in his chosen denomination, then he would have to tow the line, which he did. Because of the infidelity, he was allowed to return to the ministry and eventually he met another woman and remarried.
My point is that often we become burdened down with the cares of this world and we assign blame to someone else. I have always had issues between the fierce God of the OT and the loving, nurturing Christ of the NT, even though they are one in the same being. I often get angry with God for allowing the incredible atrocities in this world and blame the current state of affairs on Him. I have to go back to the fact that He suffered more than I ever will at the hands of both His own people and those that He came to save and that He is not to blame. The real blame lies with three individuals, Adam, Eve, and Lucifer for our current situation. If God does not let things play out, then He will be accused of being a manipulator and not a God of freewill when all things come to judgment.
Prophecy validates many of the requirements that the Messiah was to fulfill and I can see no other time in history that being pierced and “lifted up” for our transgressions could have happened on such a grand scale. In fact, the Jews were primed and ready for a “Deliverer” when Jesus came to this earth. Though I believe He was the One from colored lenses (because I want to believe it), I still have problems resolving the sacrificial prophecies and the resurrection of the Levitical Priesthood after Christ returns (Zech 14, Is 66). I return to my original position, however, and that is without Christ, what hope do we have? I have studied many aspects of Judaism, Hinduism, Taosim, WICCA, Paganism, Zoroasterism, Mithraism, the Eleusinian Mysteries, and Islam (to name a few) and none offer the kind of hope that is in Christ. I have also delved within Christendom and seriously studied Catholicism, Greek Orthodoxy, Mormonism, Jehovah’s Wittiness concepts, Seventh Day Adventism, World Wide Church of God teachings, Southern Baptist, Seventh Day Baptist, and several Charismatic movements and discovered flaws in each of the fabrics of their doctrines. Though I find faults, I am not tossing the “baby out with the bath water” because of it.
I find what communes with my spirit within the Word and act (or attempt to act, often failing) on those concepts. I do not buy into many traditional aspects of popular Christianity, but also believe that each has its place in the order of things. My foundation is solid, but my quest for more understanding and knowledge is as fluid as a river. My quest is to find the truth in it all (as compared to biblical teachings) and attempt to “fill in the blanks” of what appears to be missing or misunderstood. I am in no way a Unitarian, but I honestly don’t have all of the answers so I “seek.” As mentioned earlier, we are gifted with many aspects of the Spirit, and unfortunately separate ourselves from those that may have other gifts, thus dismembering and perverting the body spoken of by Paul:
Rom 12:4, “For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:”
We know that there were many “factions” of Christianity even in the days of the apostles, (Gal 2:11-12, 1 Cor 1:14, Rom 15:16, Acts 15, etc.), but Jesus said:
Lk 9:50-51, “And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. And Jesus said unto him, Forbid [him] not: for he that is not against us is for us.”
I implore you to re-evaluate what drove you into the ministry initially. You have a burning still deep inside you (it is passionate within your writings), but are denying yourself for fear of being let down once again. Look at the bible as a resource of knowledge in a neutral light and then make up your mind. History has proven the existence of Jesus, whether divine or not. Prophetic fulfillment, on the other hand, makes a bold statement concerning who He claimed to be. His words are so cosmic and out of the human nature of things, I cannot fathom that He could not have been an inspired individual. Something still tugs at your soul and I am not convinced that you have fully shut the door on your 1st love. What “if” that tugging is Christ?
1Jo 4:1, “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.”
1Th 5:21, “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.”
I feel a deep brotherhood with you for some reason; if you would like to correspond via email, let me know and I will provide an address.
Jim
Name:Jim •
Date: 03/29/07 8:15
A: Mark-Tao,
I was quite an outcast within my community. My father was an alcoholic and my mother suffered from mild schizophrenia. If that were not enough, both parents were from opposing religions. My dad was a strict World Wide Church of God member and my mom was a Jehovah’s Witness—both associated with “cultish” religiosity. Having grown up a Southern Baptist until approximately nine years of age, we “seemed” pretty normal; celebrating Christmas, Ester, Halloween, etc. When my parents decided to change their practices, however, my older brother and I lost it all. Because of their positions within their religious domains, I was barred from joining clubs, such as the Boy Scouts, 4-H, and competitive sports. To really aggravate the situation, I was forbidden to say the Pledge of Allegiance, which garnered a “shame on you” from a substitute teacher and laughter from my peers. To top it off, I was not the best looking kid in school and was often made fun of because of my goofy last name.
As mentioned previously, I witnessed hypocrisy beyond belief during this tumultuous time. My mom was telling me that not being a “Witness” was not being part of the plan of God while she cheated on my father and spent his money like it was on fire. My father would yell at me for eating pork, claiming it would kill me, all the while sporting his fourth or fifth beer in one hand, and the bible in the other. As an outcast in school and doing quite poorly to boot, I turned to the opposite of what I had experienced, which was demonic intervention (thus the prayer). Fortunately, my heart was not into it and I knew what I was doing was VERY wrong. I began having conversations with God from that point forward—sometimes good, sometimes just a one-sided yelling match.
As I began to read the bible from a purely inquisitive position, my mind began to see a very different application to what He was saying to the world. Scripture has often been called “living,” and I must support this mindset because the bible has a way of talking directly to the person seeking a response. I realized that both of my parents were wrong in their application of the Word, for they were using it to justify their positions instead of being convicted of wrongdoing. I discovered the “essence’ of God in creation, such as the wonderful flavor emanating from a simple apple, the gentle touch of His hand in a warm autumn breeze, and the incredible beauty of a newborn child. I saw a God that initially did not understand the human element, but poured out His love by learning that being human was not easy through becoming one of us:
Hbr 5:8, “Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;”
Though earlier correspondence may not have described my religious position with the same passion that I applied to my history, it is none-the-less there. It took me several times to seek Christ, always chickening out and instead asking for the strength to ask for Him to come unto me. I remember when, where, and how I felt when I finally made the commitment. I can recall the fear of knowing that my life was going to change and that it would not be easy, yet I was unable to deny my desire for Him. I felt a warm glow that covered me, as one by one the sins of my life were forgiven and I, in turn, forgave. I did not ask for Him in a church alter call, nor during a bible study, but was in my bed while on temporary assignment to North Bay, Ontario Canada. Since then, I have made such tremendous leaps forward in my life, with a happy marriage (I’m the only member of my family to experience this), successful military career (obviously, I did not agree with the non-government position of my mother’s religion), and am a proud grandparent. I play guitar and sometimes bass in my church praise team and though my little Seventh Day Baptist congregation holds to several teachings that I do not agree with (mainly traditional practices), I still would not change a thing.
We are a hodge-podge of differing backgrounds, with former Messianic Jews, Catholics, Lutherans, Methodists, and Seventh Day Adventists (to name a few) that agree on the free gift of salvation and the atoning sacrifice of Jesus. We debate many points of scripture and often disagree with one another on several points, but also agree that something about our former affiliates did not beckon to us and so we changed. What attracted me to this little flock is the love and earnest respect that we have for those very differences that make us strong. Some are robust in prophecy, others teaching, and many in love. This may not be my last stop, but for know, I am learning and growing in God and that’s cool with me!
To answer your political question, I believe that the things of this world belong to those in charge, but the things of God belong to Him and Him alone:
1 Pe 2:13-14, “Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.”
I served my country for nearly twenty-two years as an Air Force member and believe that it is everyone’s responsibility to be good stewards with what God gas blessed us with. We cannot cower in the corner as my mother’s people do and must make every effort to protect this land and our freedoms; freedoms God has blessed us with. Conversely, we can only retard the pollution for so long for all things will crumble into nothingness when the time of judgment is at hand.
On a final note, though my childhood was less than ideal, I would not change a thing. Thanks to my parents contrasting views, I have been exposed to many other trains of thought. JW’s make it a point to shut up their minds to anything of the world and whole-heartedly rely upon their publishing companies and Elders to lead them in the right direction. They even have their own “New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures,” a biblical re-write that changes many elements and wordings of established scripture. They rely upon fear and intimidation of being “dis-fellowshipped” to keep the masses in line. In effect, they have willfully given over their freedoms of thought and action to be a part of their exclusive “club.” On the opposite end of the spectrum, my father taught me to always seek the Word and never take anybody’s interpretation of it, no matter what. He accessed several sources and was not afraid to read either my mother’s or anybody else’s literature in his pursuit of knowledge. Though he often argued points that I still do not agree with, he at least knew how to back it up from many sources. Because of this, I have strength in my faith and am not intimidated nor threatened by another’s belief or writings, but seek these things to expand my mind.
Hsa 4:6, “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee,”
Name:Achaney •
Date: 03/29/07 9:43
A: The problem is not the fact that I was a minister and gave up on it, the problem is Christianity itself. There are to many problems in the bible in the first place and that is why there is so many protestant sects (denominations) that cant agree with certain so-called biblical principles started by theologians themselves which were actually philosphers in themselves which when Rome took over Christianity in turn the philosphers were dying out because of it, so they started theology, look at theology, it is so much like philosophy and related to what the early philosophers weret communicating about ideas of God, even today we are seeing a growth of (or comeback) of philosophy in christianity and the evangleist treat it like it was something not new ! In a way, they are right, because theology was produced by the Greek philosphers as part of the conversion process which was being enforced at the time by Roman Emporer Consantine. They did not want to be out of work, so they joined in. The Bible is full of allegories which have inner meanings to them outter meanings and anybody wants to debate this should read there bible again, where in Galatians 4:24 Paul admits this. Paul himself was learned in philosophy and knew these things about the bible. The true Jerusalem church was found and preserved by the Knights Templar and in turn they became Freemasons after being forced to disband. So in all reality, Freemasonry is the only thing that comes close to what the true Jersalem church taught. Ressurection of the body and immortality of the soul. Which is the sublime degree of the master mason, also known as the cornerstone rejected.
Name:Mark-Tao •
Date: 04/04/07 21:59
A: Jim,
I get what you're saying about the bible being a book that speaks to where you're at. When I read it, I get different things from the same passage, each time.
When Moses met God at the Burning Bush, God said, "I Am." For me, the bible is a tool. It is full of history, and myth, and inspiration. It points me to a deeper faith, but it doesn't actually take me there. Life does that.
My faith is not based on the accuracy of the bible. It can be all wrong, and God still exists for me. It's the places in my heart that tell me where God is. There are passages in the bible that don't look very much like the God I believe in.
For me, God is alive, and the bible is a tool. God is not a tool. I don't want to be a tool either. I would much rather be alive, or as God said, "I am."
Name:Anchorite •
Date: 04/05/07 1:34
A: To believe in change is to be believe in something that cannot be proved!
