Name:r3 •
Title: Bayes equation rather than prosecutors fallacy •
Date posted: 07/02/07 4:22
Q: I have documented and presented how to properly calculate the probability for TLTJ. The probability calculations are on a level further then I have seen and reached a level of completion worthy of presenting. I will discuss it in the discovery forum at the following url which has a much better format, but will present my challenge to Simchi here. Key excerpts from my article are listed below.
In- the discussion after the show Simchi stated that just 50% probability would be remarkable. The probability he was talking about was the nonextont type explained in Section 4.3.2 where it is made obvious that 50% means no argument strength. So this proves Simchi was mistaken in his understanding of the meaning of the value for an nonextont probability. The meaning is explained in Section 4.3 of my article. Excerpts below also show the Feuerverger probability is invalid. My article proves if Simchi want to present a correct probability calculation for TLTJ he must do it through Bayes equation.
I have no doubt Simchi will or perhaps already has looked into bayes equation. If he does and finds a good argument strength for TLTJ, then no doubt he will present it through bayes equation. If he does and finds no argument strength for TLTJ as I have, then the real question is, Is Simchi going to be a scientist who corrects his mistakes and just present correct objective arguments or is he going to continue as being a salesman knowingly presenting false arguments? The further he goes on without addressing the argument for TLTJ through bayes equation the stronger the evidence the he has knows TLTJ has no real argument strength, but just prefers to present false arguments for his own personal agenda.
Excerpts from Section 4.5
For comparing H1 to not ~H1 bayes formula is written as the following.
P(H1 | E) = P(E | H1) P(H1) / [ P(E | H1) P(H1) + P(E | ~H1) P(~H1) ] (Equation #2)
Where P(E | ~H1) P(~H1) = P(E | H2) P(H2) + … + P(E | HN) P(HN) & P(~H1) = 1 – P(H1)
Equation #2 is a very useful form of bayes equation. It weighs the evidence for and against a specific hypothesis (H1) all in one equation to come up with a single probability value for the strength of the evidence for or against a specific hypothesis. Most arguments are not of the type where all the significant evidence can be evaluated by one equation to produce a single number to measure the strength of the argument; however, with the TLTJ hypothesis this can be done as explain in the following discussions in this article. First hypothetical scenarios are given in Section 4.5.1 to prove bayes equation correctly evaluates problems of this type and then in Section 6 the probability for the TLTJ theory is calculated.
Equation #2 is fair, unbiased and objective formula for evaluating the probability for a specific hypothesis which in this case is labeled “H1”. Within one formula the evidence for H1 and for the alternatives to H1 labeled ~H1 are considered. This is done by appropriate weighting the initial probability for H1 and ~H1 based on their conditional probabilities P(E | H1) and P(E | ~H1) based on the evidence “E”. It forces one to deal with the evidence for and against the hypothesis H1 and the other possible explanations provided by other hypothesis labeled ~H1. This thwarts and exposes the spin doctors who prefer to biasly select out just the evidence or interpretation that supports their preferred conclusion.
Excerpts from Section 4.5.1.9
Each of the hypothetical scenarios have shown that the bayes formula correctly calculates the probability value based upon a comparison to the direct method calculated value. Thus, it has been proven that bayes equation correctly evaluates problems of this type. The calculations make evident the importance in determining the number of outcomes that qualify as having the level of matching that is found. In other words, an assessment has to made to determine what are the chances of such a level of matching occurring. The conditional probability P(Brother | ~A’U) is the key value for correctly determining this effect in bayes equation. P(Brother | ~A’U) is the term where the number of outcomes that qualify as matching is assessed. The “Complete 8 Family” extreme case in the Section 4.5.1.8 clearly makes this evident. In this case A’U brother’s names are every possible name in the pool so the opportunity for a successful match is 100%. Thus, P(Brother | ~A’U) = 1.00 which results in bayes equation making no adjustment to the initial probability. Using the Feuerverger the probability is calculated the same regardless of how great the chance is for finding a match which again shows it is false. Feuerverger nonextont probability calculation method is specifically shown false in Section 4.5.1.7. Other extont probability calculation methods are specifically shown false in Section 4.5.1.3.
The Jacabovici team pushing TLTJ claims that there are 30,000 ossuaries with 20% inscribed [13] from which to find a match. Also, they are searching completely through not just the canonical Gospels, but the many other extra canonical stories associated with Jesus such as the Acts of Phillip dated to the fourth century to find a match. They do not limit themselves to just the immediate family of Jesus, but will use persons just associated with the Gospel Jesus with no penalty in their probability calculation for the freedom used in finding such a match. Therefore, it is obvious that number of outcomes that would match the level of matching found claimed by TLTJ must be determined by a proper probability analysis of TLTJ otherwise the great freedom for finding a successful match will not be appropriately considered. This section has shown that Bayes formula correctly account for these issues. Therefore, when bayes formula is not used, such as in the Feuerverger approach, the strength of the argument can be artificially exaggerated. This invalid reasoning is well known and called the prosecutors fallacy.
Name:sadinoel •
Date: 07/03/07 16:49
A: How dare you clutter up the board with science and facts!
If you want to communicate with the people on this board, you have to do so in a way they can understand.
To illustrate, you should be more focused on unprovable theory and philosophy... talk more about conspiracy theory and then go on great tangents about the terrible things the Catholic church has done in the past. Sprinkle in a little bit on multiple translations of the Bible, and add a dash of "Acts of Phillip". Finish with a glaze of circular reasoning and chunks of Red Herring.
Then ask yourself... who am I cr@pping? lol
Name:r3 •
Date: 07/11/07 5:21
A: So there is no argument against the fact that bayes equation is the correct way to evaluate the probabiity for TLTJ. It is evident now that Simchi knows his calculation is wrong. So it is appropiate to move on to presenting the specifc formulas used in bayes equartion to calculate the probability for TLTJ. They are listed in the following url
Don't mind Sadinoel's sarcastic remarks.They reflect on him/her.
What does the TLTJ refer to?
Also what do you think the probability level of finding the same names mentioned in the New Testament in the SAME tomb which is the central topic written about in THE JESUS FAMILY TOMB by Simcha Jaccobovici and Chartes Pellegrino?
Name:r3 •
Date: 07/21/07 5:24
A: Simchi Jacabovici and others claim that the Gospel Jesus was permanently buried in the Talpiot Tomb found around Jerusalem. This theory is called The Lost Tomb Of Jesus (TLTJ).
I am not ready yet, but will be soon be prepared to present the probability
Name:betty47 •
Date: 07/21/07 13:56
A: Very good. And if you're so sure of yourself, prove Jesus rose from the dead. What's the probablily of that? Zero percent. or 1 in 6 billion people or 1 in 15 billion people who have ever lived on this earth. The chance of this being the Jesus Family Tomb is way higher than the chance that he rose from the dead in bodily form. You can quote statistics all you like, but the thought that Jesus rose from the dead is grounded in faith, not reality. The reality is that Jesus was human. He lived and died. He said some powerful things. Will people burn in hell if they don't follow Jesus, that's for each invididual's personal quest for God. No statistical facts should tell people what to do.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 07/21/07 14:41
A: Hi Betty47,
I couldn't have said it better myself !!! I completely agree with your statement.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 07/21/07 14:46
A: r3,
So you were referring to the movie based on the Jesus Family Tomb(the book)---JFT. It has more details than the movie.Be interesting to read your probability theory.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 07/21/07 16:05
A: Betty47,
What do you think about this Rapture event--are we ready to go? I'ld rather live long enough to see the events unfold around December 21,2012.According to something I read on the William Henry website we should be entering a very interesting cosmic and scientific era starting at that time.i'm looking forward to it.
Name:r3 •
Date: 07/21/07 23:32
A: statistics is what scientist often use to determine what is true
I changed my religous belief from creation to theistic evolution because statistics proved species share common ancestors. I studied it, understood it, then since I was honest and rational I had to believe it whether I liked it or not.
read about it at
http://members.aol.com/SHinrichs9/homepage.htm
Name:r3 •
Date: 07/21/07 23:43
A: If statitistics proved TLTJ true then my honesty and intelligence would require me to believe in it and reject the ressurection belief. However, my analysis shows statistics does not imply TLTJ true.
Name:r3 •
Date: 07/21/07 23:55
A: Science has discovered many usefull things. However, if you are a scientist then you would know that Scientist do not get to believe what they personally prefer, but thier belief must fall within the bounds of science otherwise they know they are not honest.
Name:r3 •
Date: 07/22/07 2:43
A: There is statistics for supernatural evidence that point to the gospel Jesus
A: yes. r3, but the point is that the statistics are still higher that this is the Jesus tomb then that Jesus rose from the dead in bodily form. If you want to believe that he rose in spirt, fine. Faith is faith. But Jesus lived. He died and most likely he was buried in Jerusalem or in the surrounding area, but certainly his remains are on this earth unless your faith refuses to allow you to accept it.
Name:betty47 •
Date: 07/22/07 4:47
A: What do I think of the rapture event? My husband thinks the world is blowing up in 2012. I think if it blows up, it will be as a result of human intervention rather than devine intervention. However, we survived 1984, and we survived the year 2000 both of which people predicted the world would end during those years. So I'm hoping we'll survive 2012 too.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 07/22/07 15:51
A: Betty47,
I believe that we should enjoy our time on earth and live the best way possible---When it is our time to go then so be it.Now about 2012--we'll survive it.A pyschic told me I would live into my hundreds--I'm in my fifties now.Tell your husband not to panic--and LIVE each day as if it IS a present.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 07/22/07 16:33
A: r3,
All of the evidence was in the Talpiot tomb.No amount of stats can change the findings.Read THE JESUS FAMILY TOMB for the whole story about the investigation.I know the debate is heating up as more people become informed and there are more books and articles both pro and con getting published---but it is always a good idea to start from the beginning.And this book is the original source of the controversy.From the facts presented I believe and have accepted the information based on the evidence presented that the Talpiot tomb is the final resting place of Jesus and his family.History can be distorted and manipulated to benifit those in power or believed by the uninformed or gullible, but the grain of truth always surfaces sooner or later.A CLUSTER OF NAMES FOUND IN THE SAME TOMB MATCHING THE JESUS FAMILY NAMES PUBLISHED IN THE NEW TESTAMENT.....it doesn't matter if the names were popular in those days it's who they kept company with for all eternity that counts.I still say that it's 100% proven that this is the Jesus family tomb.(Talpiot).The bare-bone facts are the epigrams etched on the ossuaries and the DNA testing etc...
The gospels are biographies of the people who lived at that time and were written as percieved by the authors.I still feel that there is something missing from those...Jesus wrote one called The book of Love--it's something the Cathars had in their possession and were exterminated for.
Name:r3 •
Date: 07/23/07 5:34
A: I read it months ago and my article in Section 5.5.1.7 mathematically proves the Feuerverger way of calculating the probability is wrong. I will soon show the correct way does not imply it is the Gospel Jesus Tomb. Have you read my article yet? Panluna presented no fomulas just unsubstantiated statement but my 24 page article presents many formulas and proves them correct. So read my article first .
Name:r3 •
Date: 07/23/07 5:37
A: The super natural evidence for the gospel Jesus I mentioned is rational based not faith and you have not yet dismissed it. However, I will only debate it on the discovery forum which is a much better software.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 07/23/07 13:05
A: R3,
I haven't read your article.Where is it published?Also I'm not a statician like you are--just show me the facts.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 07/23/07 15:01
A: R3,
and.....
This is the only website that I write posts for.I'm not quite sure why some people are hungup on the statistics unless of course they want to play the numbers game.To each their own method of madness.
Since I first watched the movie THE LOST TOMB OF JESUS in March 2007 and read the book The JESUS FAMILY TOMB in April I have become more intrigued with this subject in all it's aspects and levels.
I am just an average person living in extraordinary times and every day I find something new to learn.My experiences in life are considerably different from yours and I've shared some on these posts.
You may or may not have a belief in the super natural based on your experiences but I wouldn't completely dismiss the possibility...Take this point in consideration:Do you honestly think that a person could survive the brutal beating Jesus recieved before the crucifiction then the piercing of the Roman's spear while on the Cross?Take into account what medical care was like 2000 years ago.A person would have to be hospitalized immediately these days in order to have a slim chance for survival even with modern medical care.What would that percentege be?
The only other possibility that Jesus was physically ressurected is that someone else was crucified in his place.And if that's the case then the story would not be about Jesus Christ--it would be about another Yeshua ben-somebodyelse.and more than likely we never would have heard about it.
Do you think the gospels are 100% accurate? Or are they a stretch of the imagination and what are the chances that they were a coverup for a quick escape from his enemies?
More than likely the Gospels--even with the missing books--are 100% true as percieved by the authors and readers. And based on my experiences with the supernaural I believe that anything is possible with the Diety.There are more factors than just mere numbers to take into consideration in the Jesus equation.And alot of unanswered questions--rational or irrational.
Was he alive after the crucifixtion or was he the holy ghost who appeared for 11 years to his disciples(Pistis Sophia account) and then to other people for 2000 years.It's one of the greatest unsolved mysteries.
Can science rationally measure Spirit?
And the debate goes on and on....
Name:r3 •
Date: 07/24/07 5:14
A: You made probability claims without presenting any calculations so I am sure you cannot substantiate your probability claims. In the following article I present all the calculation to substantiate the following conclusions. Granted I still need actual rather than estimated values for Ad, Rtp and Nifc, but I am working on getting those. I do provide explanation for the calculations so you can evaluate for yourself the substantiation.
http://members.aol.c-om/SHinrichs9/jesustomb.pdf
Selected- Excerpts
7.4 Comparison
Considering the profound implication of TLTJ for traditional Christianity, it is appropriate to compare the strength of the argument for TLTJ to the strength of the best known argument for the super natural claims for the Gospel Jesus. The nonextont probability for a super natural claim for the Gospel Jesus is 0.00356 listed in Ref. 25. Thus, the best argument for super natural claims for the Gospel Jesus is 0.7376 / 0.00354 = 208 times greater than the strength for the TLTJ nonextont probability. Therefore, it would be inconsistent to claim there is evidence for TLTJ, but not super natural evidence for the Gospel Jesus.
13. CONCLUSIONS
Bayes equation, the basic formula commonly used to evaluate conditional probabilities, is the correct equation for evaluating the probabilities associated with the level of matching found between the Talpiot Tomb and the Gospel Jesus Family. Section 4.5.1 proves that Bayes equation is the correct formula for evaluating the probability for this type of problem. Thus, any formulation that is not consistent with Bayes equation would be invalid. Section 4.5.1.7 shows that the Feuerverger formulation is incorrect for the many reasons listed in Section 8.1. Other methods are also shown incorrect in Section 4.5.1.3.
Section 5 lists the equations that are used in Bayes equation to determine the extont and nonextont probability for the level of matching found between the Talpiot Tomb and the Gospel Jesus Family. The extont is fundamentally based on the number of other Jesus son of Josephs that could have been placed in the Talpiot Tomb. The nonextont is fundamentally based on the number of found inscribed male names on ossuaries that aside from their specific name would be consider as candidate ossuaries for the Gospel Jesus just as the Talpiot Tomb ossuaries are by TLTJ. Based on the calculations in Section 7 conservative odds of at least 59:1 against the Talpiot Tomb containing the Gospel Jesus are odds are determined. The nonextont probability cannot be used to directly measure argument strength; however, it’s value of at least 0.669 is very high and is order of magnitudes higher than a minimum standard used in science use to make a significant argument. The probabilities imply that the match found is at a level well expected to occur just by random. Thus, valid probabilistic analysis of TLTJ clearly does not imply the Gospel Jesus was buried in the Talpiot Tomb.
Name:r3 •
Date: 07/24/07 5:15
A: PS take the dash out of the url
Name:Panluna •
Date: 07/24/07 13:04
A: R3,
The historical Jesus was buried in the Talpiot tomb in the 1st century.The Gospel Jesus still lives in his words and the in stories told for last two centuries.
You can use whatever equation you want to employ but the facts remain as they have been written until proven otherwise.
Name:r3 •
Date: 07/24/07 13:28
A: I put together 24 pages of calculations and proof Gospel Jesus not in Talpiot Tomb and you dismiss it with no calculation but just say so. So I have no reason to think you would ever acknowledge proof.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 07/24/07 14:02
A: R3,
Good work...even though I don't understand it.I'm not a mathematician.I hope I didn't hurt your feelings.There is a hint here and it's in the appropriate word:Gospel Jesus versus HISTORICAL Jesus.
The physical remains of the historical Jesus was found in the Talpiot tomb thus disproving the physical ressurection.
The GOSPEL Jesus is the subject of myths,legends,New Testament stories(the Gospels) and faith.
Since accuracy is important then in my view point it comes down to one word----and that is using historical instead of gospel.
I'm sorry if I embarressed you but if you want the Jesus equation to be correct then it must be defined by this one point.Do you see it?
Name:r3 •
Date: 07/24/07 18:54
A: What I mean by the Gospel Jesus in the historical Jesus which the Gospel discuss. You do not present any calculation to support the position that the Historical Gospel Jesus was buried in the Talpiot Tomb, but you declare it so. I presented proof that Feuerverger formulation is incorrect and proved Bayes equation is correct. Then I show the Bayes method does not imply Historical Gospel Jesus was buried in the Talpiot Tomb.
I am a scientist so it is no use to declare something true to me that I have proven false. It is useless to declare something true that you have no substantiation for. If you know my method is wrong than show where in the formulation it is wrong, otherwise it is evident that your claim that the Historical Gospel Jesus was buried in the Talpiot Tomb is unsubstantiated.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 07/24/07 22:28
A: R3,
The Historical Gospel Jesus(as you like to call him) and relations are buried in a cemetary in Isreal.They were moved from the Talpiot tomb in 1980 and reburied following Hebrew burial customs.
The records from the investigation prove the sequence of events.And all the facts are presented very clearly in the book and the movie.
Are you trying to disprove the evidence in order to prove the case?
And.. there is more to life than formulas...and I don't have to prove anything.
Name:betty47 •
Date: 07/30/07 5:03
A: Why are you so defensive R3? It seems critical to you that you and other Christians on this site prove this tomb false. I don't care if it is or isn't, although, I think it is. History and Faith are two different things. Is your faith shaken if this is the true tomb of Jesus? Mine isn't. I'm always trying to read and learn, and the more we learn about any religion, I think is a good thing.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 07/30/07 13:08
A: Betty47,
Now that I know the truth I have better understanding of Jesus and Christianity.It would take a really deep soul awakening for the fundamemtalists and the devout to accept the newer facts after being brought up with centuries- old ideas.It could take some time for changes to be approved by the church leaders.
Personally on my view about religion: I don't feel that the important part is where Jesus was born,lived,died and was buried.I believe that the message in the scriptures that have endured for thousands of years and lives in the hearts and minds of those willing to hear and see is what's important.After all the physical body is temporary and the words of the Diety and the Innerlight of Spirit are eternal in whatever way it's presented to humanity.
Name:betty47 •
Date: 07/31/07 2:22
A: Yes. Wise words, Panluna.
Name:Anchorite •
Date: 08/02/07 21:03
A: Hi Everyone,
I did a Google search on "nonextont". Please be aware R3 is using this term repeatedly. This term appears but on this site.
I took a little statistics after high school. I seem to recall Bayes has to do with a kind of progression on a basis.
But these posts are concerned with more fundamental odds.
I advise caution when attempting to rebuke R3. There is a credibility issue. Sorry, R3.
Sincerely,
Ancorite
Name:Panluna •
Date: 08/02/07 23:19
A: Anchorite,
I never took statistics in High School.it wasn't taught when I attended so it's a little over my head and the theorem R3 was using was incomprehensible to me.I have a basic understanding of the meaning and use of stastistics--like 5 out of seven dogs like these bisquits or there's a 50 to 50 chance of being male or female.I just couldn't fathom the application of such a complicated theory like the Bayes Equation being used to disprove a physical archeological find like the Talpiot tomb which is as real as the pyramids.It's just me....do you understand his (R3)math problem?
Name:r3 •
Date: 08/03/07 5:00
A: The terms nonextont and extont I created to define the two type of basic sample spaces used to determine the probabilities. I tried to find an official term, but did not in my probability text books. There probably is, I just have not found it yet. I define and explain nonextont and extont in detail in Section 4.3. The extont probability is based on a sample space that consists of a set of outcomes that occurred or are expected to have occurred. The nonextont probability is based on a sample space that consists of a set of outcomes that could occur, but did not necessarily occur.
Scientist do not resort to using credibility for substantiation of claims unless they have to. In this case there is no need to because in Section 4.5.1 are hypothetical examples that show bayes equations correctly evaluates problems of this type for both the nonextont and extont probabilities. Bayes equation is the formula for conditional probabilities, so it solves the probability for the condition of finding the Jesus son of Joseph Ossuary in the tomb with the other ossuaries.
http://members.aol.c-om/SHinrichs9/jesustomb.pdf
leave- out the dashes
Name:sam •
Date: 08/03/07 15:44
A: Dear Panluna,
After 13 days away in a visit to my son and his family in MA, I open this post and I read it from the bignning to the end , and it is fascinating how easy to read the people mind through their words!!!. I am going to bring few examples.
--- betty47, brought many claims in one statement, when she said:
1- Is your faith shaken if this is the true tomb of Jesus?, Mine isn't.
Here she show you the truth about herself, and that nothing will change her mind, not even if it is the TRUTH!!!. and then follow it by a false claim (lie), and she said this:
2- I'm always trying to read and learn,
Trying to learn what?, If she read a book that tell her Jesus never crusified , and that was proven, can she axcept the fact?. She lie again. Let us read what she said after:
3- and the more we learn about any religion, I think is a good thing.
Learn about ANY religion?. That is a big lie !!!, Did we forget what she said before?, "Is your faith shaken.... Mine isn't." Did she know the fact that those whom their thinking [faith or others] cannot be chaken are those who do not accept anything even THE TRUTH. A small example is what those who run the churches, and other places came to kill and burn who ever speaks or writes things that they do not like [unchaken faith], she should read the history. For God sake what she will learn from the other religion? , after all she cannot be chaken in what already fixed in her mind about those religion, when she deny them in advance. she will not learn from thing that deny, THAT IS THE LOGIC AND THE TRUTH.
A QUESTION TO betty 47, "Do you accept in what came in the book of another religion if it was true and supported by science?, or you will reject everything in it because your faith cannot be chaken?.. tell me if you accept these information that came 1400 years ago:
--- And it IS HE who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon, ALL HEAVENLY BODIES [that is everything including earth] , IN AN ORBIT ARE SWIMMING.
--- And the heaven WE constructed with strenght AND INDEED WE ARE ITS EXPANDER.
--- Or they are like darknesses within an unfathomable SEA WHICH IS COVERED BY WAVES, UPON WHICH ARE WAVES, over which are cloud, darknesses, some of them upon others.When one puts out his hand [therein], he can hardly see it. And he to whom Allah [God] has not granted light, for him there is no light.
(WAVE UPON WAVE IN THE SEA!!!. No one knows this fact which came before 1400 until it was discovered by five scientists in june 1969 while riding a research submarine called "BEN FRANKLIN" which the US goverment sent to study the golf stream. Please go the this site and read and see the charts from the captin book. "ben franklin 1969 research submarine".
after that you tell me if you accept those knowledge and facts or reject them just because they came in the other religion book "THE QURAN".
This is the first part of my finding in this post, the rest will follow.
God bless you.
Name:sam •
Date: 08/04/07 3:38
A: Dear Panluna,
I came back this afternoon and open another post "Recalculating the Stats ", and you said the following, an answer for betty47:
"Just to let you know:I'm not a born -again Christian.I'm a seeker of knowledge,truth and wisdom.Anything is possible in this world and the next.And there is no philosophy or religion higher than the Truth."
What you said is great, and I agree with you, but let me say that, "when saying those great things and not follow it , that will make it no more than ink on paper". The truth can be found through LOGIC, and logic is the scientific methods adding to it facts and reasoning , and the brain that God gave us is able to work marvels if it was free first. The truth does not depend on colour, or gender, or faith, or on hate & love.
And You said:
1- "History can be distorted and manipulated to benifit those in power or believed by the uninformed or gullible,"
---That is true, when person look at the history of the churches after the time of Jesus , he will see that clearly, nothing from Jesus teaching but mostly from Paul and his followers.
2- "but the grain of truth always surfaces sooner or later"
--- That true again, first the many gospel that came from under the sand, then the tomb..... but there is something everyone try to ignore {because of hate}...if we come to find that what been taught for long time is wrong in one side then why we sould not look to the other side [the other one that came after], in case that might have the truth?. Jesus spoke the truth and did miracles and there was many witnesses, but all that rejected by the Jews. can anyone learn from that lesson, why should that happen again?.
3- "Do you think the gospels are 100% accurate? Or are they a stretch of the imagination"
--- Retire Bishop John S. Spong wrote: "The gospel cannot be trusted to be reliable."
Can we say that he was wrong, just because he is a gay person?.can we say the same if such thing came from a woman or black or hindu or Muslim?. The truth is the truth no matter who find it, and the false is the false no matter who say it.
The story of the stars fallen on earth and there after jesus will come on the cloud, is no more than someone emagination [as you mentioned] , and cannot be accepted logically, or scientifically or by the method of reasoning.
4- "but the facts remain as they have been written until proven otherwise. "
--- The late discoveries proved that what was taught by the churches for many years were wrong, and the science, and logic can prove many wrong thing that written in the gospels and the bible, but those who read and follow still believe that those book are holy book!!!, while we should understand that the words which Jesus spoke are from God and only those are holy. The words in the letters of Paul are not holy {I robe the churches to serve you} those cannot be holy words.
5- "And based on my experiences with the supernaural I believe that anything is possible with the Diety.".... "The only other possibility that Jesus was physically ressurected is that someone else was crucified in his place"
--- First I would like you to go back and read my post, "was Jesus crucified?- 05-16-07". When I brought this subject, and with proof from the Gospel and the Quran, no one agree or disagree, and no one care for the truth. Your short answer was, "Yes,Jesus was crucified. " and that is far from what said here, "that someone else was crucified in his place"
07-23-07 !!!. If the change come by knowing new thing please let me know.
--- Supernatural, I believe in it too and I had many experiences, and I will bring them to you in the right time.
--- SUPERNATURAL!!!, Those happen many time through the history, some in small way as sort of vision, and others in big way, and that what we call MIRACLES. The miracle only given by God to His messengers [prophets], and witnessed by many [eye-witness]. Moses turned a stick into living snake, and make a path in the sea to save His people and many others, and Jesus turned the water to wine, and HE VANISHED ...&...HE WAS TRANSFIGURED....cured many people of diseases and afflictions and many others.
My questions: Did Moses claim those miracle to Himself?. Did Jesus claim His miracles to Himself?. Did He say, "I can do nothing on my own initiative", and even the words that He speaks is given to Him by God?. With all what Jesus said, there are billion who believe that Jesus is God, and at the end I will bring the latest example.
6- "The only other possibility that Jesus was physically ressurected is that someone else was crucified in his place"
--- SUPERNATURAL!!!, You & me we believe in them, and we both believe in the miracles that came by the Jesus and Moses, and we both know that the stories about Jesus death is not clear in the gospels, and there are conflicted stories that put doubt about them, and here you said, "someone else was crucified in his place"!!!
What you said now has been said before 1400 years, so listen to what was said:
"AND FOR THEIR SAYING, "INDEED, WE HAVE KILLED THE MESSIAH, JESUS, THE SON OF MARY, THE MESSENGER OF ALLAH [GOD]." AND THEY DID NOT KILL HIM, NOR DID THEY CRUCIFY HIM; BUT ANOTHER WAS MADE TO RESEMBLE HIM TO THEM. AND INDEED, THOSE WHO DIFFER OVER IT ARE IN DOUBT ABOUT IT. THEY HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF IT EXCEPT THE FOLLOWIN OF ASSUMPTION. AND THEY DID NOT KILL HIM, FOR CERTAIN." Q- 4:157
IS THAT ANOTHER MIRACLE? WHY THEY BELIEVE IN EVERY MIRACLE AND REJECT THIS ONE?
Here we can see the truth, no doubt, and no assumption, but for certain. And who knows better, The God that brought all the miracles, and the miracle of creating life from the dead earth, or the people who wrote the stories, and they do not know how the creation began ?. Did we see many unreal and false stories in the gospels, or not ?. and God told us by His words, that the truth will come after time, and when it comes we do not accept it !!!:
"AND YOU WILL SURELY KNOW THE TRUTH OF ITS INFORMATION AFTER TIME" Q- 38:88
"...Those who were given the Scripture and the believers will not doubt and that those in whose hearts is desease [hypocricy] and the disbelievers will say, "What does Allah [God] intend by this as an example?"......And it is not but a reminder to humanity."
It is clear here that we will find the truth, and sure we did find it after time, and we found the gospels that been barried under the sand and Jesus tomb, and the truth about the creation , and the expanding universe and that all the object in the universe are going in orbit, and the wave in the deep sea and the the black hole which now we know that it is a star which even the light cannot escape from it, and so our soul will never escape in the day of judgment:
"By the sky and the night comer, and what can make you know what is the night comer?, IT IS THE PIERCING STAR, here is no soul but it has over it a protector, so let man observe from what he was created........Indeed HE [GOD], to return him to life, is able. The Day when secrets will be put on trial, then he {man} will have no power or any helper." Q-86:
This example show us that no soul will escape as the light cannot escape from the piercing star, [ this fact about this star is known very recently- read about it in NASA or the Hubble].
Dear Panluna, You believe in the searching for the truth, and many will say the same, but when it comes many will deny it, because it come from the one that they do not like, and that is strange things. The history of the churches and it is followers give us a clear example [read about Galileo] , but GOD asked us to look for the truth:
"O MUHAMMAD, SAY TO THEM [this message for all the human], GO TRAVEL THROUGH THE EARTH AND OBSERVE HOW THE CREATION BEGAN. Q- 29:20
Even God asked us to search for the truth, all the truth even about his secret of HIS creation, those are the words of GOD, and not the words of Muhammad. Abraham, Moses Jesus and Muhammad, and all the people at their time and the people before them has no idea about the world that they live in, all of them they sought that the earth is flat and the stars are just small object that gives light at night, if they know the truth then for sure they will mention it.
Now [after time] , the people are traveling all around the world and in the space to find the truth about GOD creation. And they found a lot and more to be found, and we are not alone in this world, there are trillions of stars like our earth out there and there is life too.
"IT IS GOD WHO CREATED SEVEN HEAVENS AND OF THE EARTH, LIKE OF THEM." Q- 65:12
...........................
From the National Geogrephic forums [the gospel of Judas]. 07-20-2007, Mr Antimoz, from Georgia [Europe] wrote:
"I agree to every your oppinion exept about st.Trinity... becase the st. fathers, bishops and emperors had their real arguments about this thing. In any other's oppiinoin I 'm not interested... I belive only in the one holy catholica and apostalic church, that is the body of christ contained by people (by us).... I'm sorry but I'm not going to speak about these things anymore.... ;) What's about judas gospel I already fixed my oppinio."
There billions like him around the world, Hindu, Buddhist, Jews, Christians and Muslims. all they claim to know the truth, but believe me that they are blinded by their faith, so will never see the light of the truth.
"And he to whom Allah [God] has not granted light, for him there is no light." those are the words of God in His book.
God bless you.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 08/05/07 15:20
A: Welcome back Sam,
How was your trip?
I just watched two episodes of THE UNIVERSE on the History Channel yesterday.The series is awesome.Outerspace is someplace I have no hope of traveling to so my TV set and these informative programs are my window on the this world and the universe.One of the episodes was about the different galaxies.I had a thought---where does God live in that great expanse of space?Which galaxy did they come from?
I'm much closer to my micro-cosmic world that lives within me .And the answer for me is that God lives in my soul.
The Hebrew Massiah is supposed to appear at the end-times.The Christians believe that Jesus was a Saviour of humans and through believing in his teachings one's soul was saved.He was the Humans' Redeemer.During 2000 years of Christianity's developement starting with (ST) Paul who never met Jesus or the original desciples but who saved the religion during the !st century there has been much contoversy over the facts.Was he or wasn't the promised Messiah?Did he or didn't he ressurect in body after the crucifixtion?
The grain of truth was found in a tomb in Isreal in a limestone coffin marked with the epigram of his name.
After much scrutiny over the facts of Christianity's history I've come to the conclusion that I see it for what it really is .And I believe that the Truth can be found in the Bible---it's a matter of perception in the eye of the beholder.And education certainly makes a big difference.You either believe in something or you see it for what it is if it can handle the challenges of scrutiny and stands up to evaluation .Religion is a personal choice.The Truth can be accepted by anyone who percieves it.
Name:sam •
Date: 08/05/07 17:37
A: Panluna,
Thank you. My trip was great, I did enjoy everyday of it, the 5500 sq/f house on one and half acre land on the edge of the forest and not far from lake Onota in the berkshire region, and it is about 10 miles from town is nice place to be in. I spent many hours watching birds, and I saw deers, and for the first time while we having beakfast at the back deck , I saw a red fox and two cubs, also I saw a group of wild turky, and at night we put all the light off and watch the million stars, which I did not se in the city here, and that reminded me of the sky of my town (1300 M. above see level) in Lebanon. And going to the huge basement and play billiard and chess and backgamon and other board games with my grandson was more than what I wish for. and they have a full excersize room, and after all that I had a martini for the first time in the full bar (I did drink beer, wisky , Arac (ouzo) and all sort of wine).
In the evening we spend sometime playing more game, many of them, which I cannot remember their name, but for sure I lost in those game to my grandson!!!, and we had a lot of laughs
When you read what happen in one of those games , you will laugh at me too.
The game had a dice with letter on it and every player had a pad and pen, and there is a timer. So when the dice rolled, ex. (P) , everyone should write an answer from the twelve questions, so when the dice comes F , and the question is to name a famous singer, and the timer start clicking fast I could not think anymore, so I wrote "franko Dominico"
, and they start laughing and saying there is no such singer, and my answer was "how do you know". and when the dice came (G) and the question was " a name in the holy book", and at that time and with all my reading to the books, not even one name could come to my mind (blank), but I wrote a name anyhow. My son said "Galilee" , my daughter said, "Genesis", and the gradson said, "God" , And when they ask me abot mine I said "I cannot tell you" and the boy jumped and took my paper, and look at it and start laughing, and the other waiting to know what was the name, believe me, ten minute and the boy holding the pad and going around jumping, and we all start laughing, a lot of fun! and at the end he said my grandpa think that "George bush" in the holy book, and more laughs. and I said who know maybe one day they will add his name.
My grandson for few days, from time to time, he say "George Bush !", and everyone laughed again.
Sometimes I think how we three of us can forget the name of God, while an eight years old grandson know it!!!.
as for the other stuff I will give my thoughts later on.
God bless you.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 08/06/07 12:11
A: Hi sam,
Sounds like you had alot of fun.I would rather live in the country ,too.The Persied meteor shower runs this week.Fortunately the moon will be dark and I hope the night skies will be clear.
Name:Pearl •
Date: 08/06/07 16:23
A: Hi....I just watched The lost tomb of Jesus...and decided to look it up online as I've never come across anything like this before...and found this forum….I’m a bit amazed at all the different discussions and am not sure why we’re even having any.
For e.g., I just have one simple question....how come none of us can trust a single other living human being without getting hurt at least once in a life time ? & yet...one can put one's complete trust in a human being, a man called Jesus that died centuries ago and yet not be let down even once!!
Personally, I don’t think one needs science...statistics…..DNA results……lost tomb’s, a mysterious marriage, a long forgotten wife, a secret son or even history to give you an answer...it’s simple….Jesus has been, is and will always be there for each and every one of us….if only we put our trust in him!!!
Name:sam •
Date: 08/06/07 21:40
A: Hi Panluna,
I am always very interested in sciences, planes ships trains and the space and the stars, and that started in very early age, and during the years I tried to collect all sort of books, maps, pictures etc.
And when I moved to Australia I left everything behind, and the same happen when I moved to Canada. Now I have a nice collection again, atlases, books and maps from National Geographic etc.
I did subscribe for those channels . 520-The discovery channel, 521- TLC (the learning channel, 522- the history channel, 523- Discovery Civilization, 524- National Geographic, and 525- Animal planet. $2.99 each, but the knowledge I recieve from those is far more than to put a price for them.
Besides, the computer helped me a lot, and specially the knowledge from NASA and the Hubble sites, and others, going through the beautiful pictures of space and the galaxies in our universe I feel like I am in a beautiful dream, and I fell the greatness of God, and I understand how small our earth is and how small and weak we are. God gave us a brain that can imagine things, but we will never come to know evrything, the thing that we come to know is what god permited only.
Dear Panluna, I had the feeling that you are interested in science and space like me, and you are free and open minded when seeking the truth. We try to question things, and then try to look for an answer?. That is the logical way to come to the truth.
The world for those who lived centuries ago, was small and limited, but our world today is tremendous, huge and unlimited. There was the earth the sun and the moon and small object in the sky that they call them stars, our stars today all similar to our sun, and by the billions, then we came to know the galxies, and there are billions of them.
In the past, God for those who believed in Him was living around and near and even within themselves, because their world was small, and in the Bible the story came , that God walk with Abraham!!!, and that just an imagination of the writer and no more. Today things changed, and people are questioning about God place (throne) in this universe witch has no border and has no limit.
Jesus said:
-"And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven."
(Here we see that at the end there will be many who will be in heaven with God, and when Jesus mentioned that He will be sitting at the right hand of God in heaven, there will be many with Him sitting beside Him, for ex. Abraham Isaac etc.)
- "Heaven; for it is God's Throne."
- "to know the MYSTERIES of the kingdom of HEAVEN."
- "And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in HEAVEN."
( in these words we find out that the heaven is the thorne of God, and it is a mysteries, and God who is in heaven is the father of all (the creator of all), and not the father in the term we use on earth.)
You mentioned this: "I had a thought---where does God live in that great expanse of space?Which galaxy did they come from?"
--- THE UNIVERSE our universe (our sky), is A limited space THE ONE WE COME TO KNOW AND THE ONE THAT WE DO NOT KNOW YET, BUT GOD KNOWS, and that is what God created. For man this universe look tremendous, huge, and great expance of space, but as for God it might be a small piece of His world, and God created seven like it, (that was written in all the holy books, and one sky above another (that was written in the Quran) and the Quran is the only book that give us an example about them, and how God created them, and how it will come to an end.
Those seven skys (universes) they are not "where does God live" - as some people think. And HE does not live in a galaxy. Amd he does not live with us, like the Christian believe . Antimos said , "I belive only in the one holy catholica and apostalic church, that is the body of christ contained by people (by us)." and he believes that Jesus is God!!!. and the church is His body and contained bu us!!! ( the catholic only!!!), do you believe in what he or the other christians said, and created from ideas about God. Is what they created from wrong ideas are against the word of God?. read Mat. 12:31/32.
Jesus said: "- "And whoever swears by the HEAVEN, swears BOTH BY THE THRONE OF GOD AND BY HIM [GOD] who sits upon it."
--- We see here, that HEAVEV IS WHERE THE THRONE OF GOD IS, AND WHERE GOD LIVE. That place not on earth or the sky of earth (the universe our universe & our sky, and there are seven of them). God live beyond those skys witch HE created. And the place where He live is much bigger than all the universes put togehter (the Quran mentioned that).
Let me bring some of what the Quran said:
---About the creation.
"Have those who disbelieve not considered THAT THE HEAVEN AND EARTH WERE A JOINED ENTITY, AND WE SEPARATE THEM." (the big bang theory)
" And the sky WE constructed with strength AND INDEED WE ARE ITS EXPANDER." (the expanding universe theory)
"And the mountains, THINKING THEM STATIONARY, WHILE THEY ARE PASSING AS PASSING OF CLOUDS." (people always thought that the earth is flat and not moveng and the mountains do not move, but now we know that the earth and its mountains are moving)
"And it is HE who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; ALL HEAVENLY BODIES, IN AN ORBIT ARE SWIMMING." (these knowledge are known only in our days. Our galaxy and all it is stars and planets are moving around its axis, in an unbelieveble speed, and it is the same with all other galaxies)
To be sure about those information go and check all the scientific sites. NASA & the Hubble can be trusted for sure.
---- About the the skies (universes).
"And Allah who has CREATED SEVEN SKYS (UNIVERSES) AND FROM THE EARTH LIKE OF THEM*. His command descends among them so you may know that Allah is over all things competent and that Allah has encompassed all thing in knowledge."
* (I think you heard about the discoveries of planet in our galaxy?)
"And Who created seven skys (universes) IN LAYERS**. You do not seein the creation of the Most Merciful any inconsistency."
** (read about the flat universe like the sheet of paper in the Hubble site)
"The Day when WE will fold the skys (universes) LIKE THE FOLDING OF A WRITTEN SHEET FOR THE RECORDS. As WE began the first creation, WE will repeat it. That is a promise binding upon us. Indeed, WE will do it."
( God telling us that, as HE began the creation from A JOINED ENTITY, AND HE SEPARATE THEM, HE is going to fold them back as they were before, and HE will start the creation again, and that is easy for Him.) There is theory which said that the end will be in the time when the universe will pull back and collapse to become one entity, check it out.
---- The greatness and the power of God.
"Indeed, from Allah (God) nothing is hidden in the earth nor in the sky."
" Are you a more difficult creation or the sky ? HE constructed it."
Q- 2:255 - In the name of GOD the merciful the most merciful.
" ALLAH, there is no deity except HIM, the Ever-Living, the sustainer of all existence. Neither drowsiness overtakes HIM nor sleep. To HIM belongs whatever is in the skys (universes) and whatever is on earth. Who is that can intercede with HIM except by HIS permission? HE knows what is presently before them and what will be after them, and they encompass not a thing of HIS knowledge except for what HE wills. HIS THRONE (kursi) extends over the the skys (universes) and the earth, and their preservation tires HIM not. And HE IS THE MOST HIGH, THE MOST GREAT."
(I don't know if you agree to what came above or not, I woud like to hear your opinion.)
---- In my visit to my son, and after I have rested,my son and Kelly, they show me the stuff that they bought from DUBAI before few months, all around the house(mosaic table with many games, carpets, oil painting etc, then next day , kelly she wanted to show me the stuff in the study room, two frames for Arabic writing in gold which she choses, and my son who make the deal in Arabic, was shy to ask for what is written in them(you know), and she ask to translate what is in them. The first one has the 99 names for GOD ( Allah, the merciful, most high etc.) and the second one is the one that came in the verse 2:255 above.
The she asked me to read it in Arabic, and so I did, and I saw tears coming from her eyes. God bless her.
God bless you too.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 08/07/07 16:43
A: Hi,Sam
Of all the posts I've read the one you wrote on 8/06/07 @17:40 is the most beautiful and inspiring.I believe that the Angels have been telling us the truth all through history.It was just a matter of understanding them and the purpose of their messeges.
God bess you
Name:Panluna •
Date: 08/07/07 17:16
A: Pearl,
Welcome to the posts.How wonderfulit is to have such great faith that you don't feel that you have to question anything about your religion.it is easier to believe in someone who has been dead for 2000 years then have to deal with the dissappointments resulting from depending on someone who is alive and capable of doing harm.Sounds like you've had many problems.You can't count on other people to come across for you .You have to do it yourself.
The importance of the statistics is to evaluate the probability factor of the tomb findings and validate the discovery.Of the nine-hundred tombs excavated in Isreal the Talpiot tomb is the only tomb that had a cluster of names matching the names of Jesus and his family who were entombed during the !st century.The historical living breathing Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi who had a family and he died a most brutal and controversial death that spawned 2000 years of debates and legends about the Ressurection and his family--especially the importance of Mary Magdalene and her role.
Why these discussions? There is a real education on this forum and pearls of knowledge and wisdom have been contributed for everyone to read and think about.
Name:sam •
Date: 08/07/07 21:59
A: Hi Pearl,
I yould like to join Panluna, and say welcome, hopping that you enjoy our different thoughts and knowledge.
There are beautiful and good friends around, Panluna, Roy, JMD, betty47 and many others. I feel like we are in one room listening to one another, we agree and we disagree, but all that never change our respect to one another, our aims is looking for the truth, each one in his own way, and that is great.
You are an added friend, and that is great too.
