Name:GaryR54 •
Title: Bodily Ascension? •
Date posted: 03/05/07 5:17
Q: One thing that struck during the debate with the three theologians, following the show, was the insistence by one of them (sorry, I don't recall his name, but he was the one from the Dallas theological institution) that Jesus's physical body had to have acesended with his spirit, otherwise there was no reconciling the tomb's evidence with the ascension. Then, the catholic professor added that Christ supposedly extended "the same opportunity" (for physical, as well as spiritual resurrection) to all believers. I find this to be in stark contradiction to the fact that no Christian I've ever heard of believes we physically ascend to heaven. If this were the case, we wouldn't bother with burying the physical remains of the dead, in the first place and all Christians would hold the belief that all the millions of coffins lying under the ground are now empty, somehow. This isn't, however, the case, so I ask why would anyone have to insist that Jesus physically rose to heaven when it is readily apparent that no one else does so upon death?
Name:wygantsh •
Date: 03/05/07 5:39
A: Good question
Name:KRS •
Date: 03/05/07 6:51
A: Actually, the physical ascension of believers is important in the New Testament. It occurs at the return of Christ (specifically at the rapture if you are Pre-mill., pre-Trib.,), so it is still in the future. 1 Thes 4:13-18 is the simplist passage to take note of.
Name:Jim •
Date: 03/05/07 8:13
A: In my opinion, a “non-physical” resurrection invalidates the Christian faith. First, if Jesus did not rise bodily, then we (as Christians) have been duped. According to Matthew 28:6-7, Mark 16:6, and Luke 24:3 Jesus was not in the tomb. The problem with a “Spiritual only” rising calls into question the legitimacy of the Gospels as well as the sinless nature of Christ. Jesus said “I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days,” implying a physical metaphor of Himself (Mt 26:61). He also said that “…the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth” (Mt 12:40). If Christ’s bones were in a burial box within a tomb instead of with God, then this invalidates His original prophecies, making Him out to be a liar and a fraud. Not only this, but if His disciples had stolen His remains and to make it look like He had risen, what kind of people did He leave in charge of His church? Christ must have risen both bodily and physically to validate His claim of authenticity. How else could He have told Thomas to reach into His hands and side and feel for himself (John 20:27) whether He was real? Lastly, we have both divine and secular accounts of Christianity’s influence upon the masses, even to the point of death. If this had transpired over centuries, then I would say that one could reasonably argue that people will die for a lie that they believe to be true. The fact that some of Jesus’ disciples died immediately following His death, provides credence to the fact that He was whom He said (would you give your life willingly to support a known lie?). Also, Paul was a wealthy up and coming clergyman in Judaism, yet he forsook it all to follow this Jesus of Nazareth. No, if Jesus did not rise and prove His Messiahship in bodily form, no one would have believed, the movement would have stagnated, and our faith would be in vain.
Name:Inner Spirit •
Date: 03/05/07 8:22
A: I suspect that Jim that your faith in essence would be in vain then; if it is held on to as a result of this detail. I completely agree with GaryR54; I find it very difficult that the body rose. I sincerely believe that we all have the ability to manifest our desires into reality. With that being said if those who "saw" Jesus wanted so badly to believe he was in fact there; why couldn't he be. Why is it hard to believe that perhaps he did ascend to those individuals spiritually and they physically felt his presence because of their own desire.
Name:KRS •
Date: 03/05/07 8:35
A: Because Christianity is Objective, not subjective. Your position requires a departure from Christianity while retaining the name of Christianity. Paul states that if Christ did not bodily rise the Christian faith is in vain, and we are yet in our sins (1 Cor 15), and this can be cited as an irreducible minimum of the Christian faith.
Name:Inner Spirit •
Date: 03/05/07 8:56
A: How can you take it for word for word though. The text was written so long ago and look at how our language has evolved even in the last few years. Does anyone here remember the rise and fall of Ebonics. The point I am trying to make is that we can not assume we know the meaning of the words that were used when that text was written. We have a good idea, but even today there are words that are widely used that have a very different connotation than perhaps it meant 20 or 50 years ago lets multiple that to the days of pyrus when the text for the bible was written. Maybe we are all taking the words a little too seriously and need to look at the meaning behind the message.
The Bible should not be taken word for word. It should be a road map on how to live your life; part of faith is also interpretation. I have a very good friend who is a minister and he once said that, 'The Bible is a fictional book with stories to give examples on how to live your life; it should not be taken word for word."
Name:KRS •
Date: 03/05/07 15:01
A: Word meanings didn't change as fast in the ancient world as they do today because they didn't have the massive telecommunications that we have now. We can be reasonably sure about those meanings from first and second century papyrus.
As for your view of God, this, again, is not Christian, so why should Christians replace their worldview with yours without a far better argument than you have leveled?
Name:Inner Spirit •
Date: 03/05/07 17:49
A: "Word meanings didn't change as fast in the ancient world as they do today because they didn't have the massive telecommunications that we have now. We can be reasonably sure about those meanings from first and second century papyrus."
You answered my question for me, but not with your answer but with the phrase "reasonably sure". We do not know exactly what the honest definition of a word in that area means. Anyone who can say that they do without a shadow of a doubt it very egocentric, because it is just not possible. We can make careful assumptions regarding to the meaning, but we do not know for sure. It is all very subjective; I can give millions of examples from instances within my own life where I dealt with people who knew exactly what the words of the bible meant. When I have spoken of my past with my then minister or others most people would reply with the comment that they took it too literally or they did not understand, but this family was the church elder of one of the largest churches in America and to them they knew exactly what the bible meant and would tell you so. I am not bringing up the examples here, because I believe it would be in pore taste and does not relate to the actually topic but if you are curious KRS perhaps we can have a conversation in PM.
"As for your view of God, this, again, is not Christian, so why should Christians replace their worldview with yours without a far better argument than you have leveled?"
I didn't know the topic of conversation on this thread was "Hey everyone convert," so I have not gone into details of my beliefs and had no intention to so, in this thread. For your information I was raised in a Christian household, but even as a child I had a very difficult time with the bible. As you pointed out; yes I a would not consider myself a Christian and I am glad. I am more happy in my life now and feel much more at peace and I feel that I have a higher understanding compared to know than ever before when I was going to church. A statement that was made in the documentary was that Jesus spoke in parables. I loved that statement. There are teachers every where; some in very unexpected places. In fact "the teacher is always present, but it is when the student is ready the teacher will appear". When you find yourself at a point in your life where you are ready for a "higher" (I use that word loosely) understanding; you may find yourself at a point where you will cross paths with someone who can give you a new sense of direction. I have a multitude of fabulous teachers in my life and they all speak in parables as well. That's why I find that quote so invigorating.
I don't know if sharing my believes in this thread would be a good idea, because it may through the topic way off course, but I will try to find another thread that it would be appropriate in.
Name:Ouroboros •
Date: 03/06/07 4:45
A: A physical ascension is not necessary.
The body is of the world, not of heaven. You dont need a liver in heaven to filter toxins, or a stomach to digest food. This is obvious.
The fear of death is what binds people to faith in many cases. Understandably. To undermine faith is to rob comfort from many suffering/dieing individuals.
There is always suffering/dieing, so when is there really a good time to completly change the foundation of that faith ?
Its difficult. Thus the very difficult position the church finds itself in.
Consider if DNA from the Jesus tomb were to shown that Joseph were the biological father of Jesus. Now suddenly you have a collapse in faith, and an immeasurable increase in suffering.
Name:Pat •
Date: 03/10/07 15:04
A: The answer lies in some sort of cloning and it is in the bible.
God cloned Moses back. Moses had been dead and buried for hundred years before Jesus birth. Days before Jesus’ crucifixion Jesus meets on the mountain Moses ( re cloned ) back from the dead and Elijah back from Heaven.
Please note that Elijah had never died on earth but had been taken into heaven by a heavenly chariot hundreds of years earlier.
However the biggest claim about cloning and it's descriptive process of scientific resurrections lies in the bible and can be found in Ezekiel XXXVII 3/7/8/10.
Yahweh biblical God flew ( in Spirit ) to a certain place Ezekiel.
037:001 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
037:002 …., there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
037:003 ….Son of man, can these bones live? ………R-30;……….-.-
037:004 ……..
037:005 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
037:006 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. ……………&-#8230;…………&#-8230;..
037:007 ……̷-0;- there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
037:008 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
037:009 ……………. and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
037:010 ……. breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
037:011
So here we have Ezekiel watched God performed with at lot of scientific knowledge the recreations of flesh and life on the dead bones of an entire Israel army.
Did God do the same with Jesus DNA cells and recreated or cloned him back.
Perhaps a cell contains all the DNA and the memory mechanism of a dead person and one can be recreated.
Name:Beth •
Date: 03/11/07 19:43
A: krs stated, "Paul states that if Christ did not bodily rise the Christian faith is in vain, and we are yet in our sins (1 Cor 15), and this can be cited as an irreducible minimum of the Christian faith. "
Perhaps the time has come to base "Christian" faith on the teachings of Jesus, not the teachings of Paul. Christianity is based on the teachings of some one who wrote over 75% of the new testament, some one who never even met Jesus. Perhaps it is time to base a religion on the teachings of peace and love--what Jesus taught us, and leave behind the paganized pseudo-judaism that Paul left us with.
Name:Ouroboros •
Date: 03/11/07 21:36
A: Paul was a GREAT man. He was key in spreading Christian faith to non jews.
But yes, he never met Jesus the man. Only Jesus the spirit on the road to Syria.
Name:voyager •
Date: 03/12/07 21:24
A: Elijah was a prophet of the Jewish people in centuries past, who ascended into the heavens without dying. Enoch was a Jewish patriarch who walked with God, and God took him (without physical death). They did not leave or rather God did not leave those fellow's physical or spiritual bodies in the earth. Did the people follow those prophet's and now do we follow the prophet and son of God, Jesus Christos?
Both the power of God and the reality of life hereafter is a fact of science & faith because of the teachings of the man Jesus & the resurrection of Jesus the Christ can bring forth a clear understanding of Father,Mother,God.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 03/13/07 1:41
A: Have you read THE URANTIA BOOK?
Name:revelation616 •
Date: 03/27/07 23:28
A: In revelations the water from the throne of God nurtures a dying earth in the end times. Heaven comes to Earth. We are in heaven you just can't see it because 'fear' blinds you from it. And that 'fear' has created the bloodlust of Christianity. Time to trade your swords for plowshares and til the earth. Go Green! The bloodlust of Christ is over. Armageddon 'fear' and rapture yourself into 'the love.' Become the Quantum Mind. When you find a corpse, everything starts to makes sense.
Name:Anchorite •
Date: 03/28/07 4:15
A: On the topic of dying and ascending...
THE TREE
I lie beneath your green petitions
Await a wanton breeze
I count again your rising wishes
So send to me your garden sighs!
The City Park has set conditions
That tear at limbs and beat at bark
I cringe to notice ever listing
Your sturdy frame and gentle heart
The children come around and scamper
Or yank themselves to gain a view
There was a time they even camped here
And started generations new!
Soon I'll rise onto your garden
My sighs will join your righteous height
We'll mingle proper no departure
And lend a hand to bodies light
~Anchorite
Name:Elizabeth •
Date: 03/31/07 18:54
A: I agree with you on this, Gary.
I believe the body given to us after physical death is very much like "flesh and bones" (Lk 24:39). And that Jesus was trying to say that we are more than a "spirit" which can not be touched and that we could eat, as well.
He was trying to give examples of this new body and its capabilities, like our physical bodies, but better. In life after death, I believe the soul is our eternal body, very much like our flesh, but does not die. Unlike flesh, it is manifested by the spirit and is eternal with abilities unlike flesh, such as appearing and disappearing as did Jesus (Jn 20:26; Mk 16:14; Mt 17:3; ).
And our spirit is who we truly are, like our mind, persona, and certainly our memories. In the Bible, there is scripture listing the body, spirit, and soul as three separate (1 The 5:23) parts. Even God, The Father's, soul is referenced, yet his spirit can be upon us here on Earth (Mt 12:18). The body, spirit, and soul are three and are distinctive (1 The 5:23).
Blessings, ED
Matthew 12:18
Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my "soul" is well pleased: I will put my "spirit" upon him, and he shall
shew judgment to the Gentiles.
Mark 16:12
After that he (Jesus) appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
Mark 16:14
Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart,
because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
Matthew 17:3
And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Luke 24:39
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
John 20:26
And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst,
and said, Peace be unto you.
1 Thessalonians 5:23
May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole "spirit, soul and body" be kept blameless
at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Name:Elizabeth •
Date: 03/31/07 19:06
A: "Paul states that if Christ did not bodily rise the Christian faith is in vain, and we are yet in our sins (1 Cor 15), and this can be cited as an irreducible minimum of the Christian faith. "
Christ did rise in body- just not a human body, but a Heavenly one. Just as we will at our physical death.
"Perhaps the time has come to base "Christian" faith on the teachings of Jesus, not the teachings of Paul. "
Amen, Beth
Blessings to you, ED
Name:Elizabeth •
Date: 03/31/07 19:18
A: Jesus said that there was so much more to tell, but that his disciples could not bear it, at the time.
He often spoke of the blind.
We need to be careful not to allow our dogma to become stagnant like a quagmire to the point in which we refuse to even consider or see.
We should want to know and learn and not dismiss possibilities based on the fact that it does not fit our dogma.
Blessings, ED
Name:light •
Date: 04/01/07 0:01
A: Actually, I thought that belief did have a lot to do with why most people are buried in coffins and are opposed to cremation: the idea that bodies will be raised and restored on the judgment day.
Name:Elizabeth •
Date: 04/02/07 16:31
A: Dear light,
I read that the majority of Christians believe in physical body resurrection, which explains the opposition to cremation. But mankind's
interpretation (and there are many) and God's truth can be different. It is innate within us to want to define away God. We do it through
science and within the many denominations throughout even one religion. However, I have learned through my experiences that God's truth
is not up to mankind or is it ever up for debate. If our interpretations were always correct, would we do what we do to others here on Earth?
(If one does not think that it is possible for the majority to be wrong at times, then why did our Lord die on a cross?)
I believe bodies are already "raised", and certainly restored, and that we are no longer in sleep and that judgment day is already here, as well.
But that it is our soul and spirit that lives on (which would explain the bones in coffins) in Heaven.
Some have taken Paul's words and have made salvation into a "hollow" word. They have made salvation external, while within is like the dead
bones Jesus spoke of.
I tell you the truth- someone even greater than Paul came, -Jesus.
We like to define, edit, or re-invent God. In prayer, I asked why it was that we did this. A complete thought came to mind- it was the only way
we could tolerate him. We make God to fit us. It's not important that you believe me. Trust in Jesus through the 4 Gospels of the NT.
It is truth. He did not leave us without comfort.
Blessings, ED
Name:scottc •
Date: 07/21/07 7:40
A: After his death Jesus said so himself as recoreded in Luke 24:37 "They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38 He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have."
Name:Panluna •
Date: 07/22/07 17:01
A: Believe what you want.The church writters tried to eliminate the ghost concept by changing a few words in the gospels to make his ressurection a physical one.They needed a miracle to convince people.I've seen ghosts and I believe that it was his spirit that appeared to his disciples then (as recorded in the Pistis Sophia)and to Padre Pio in the 20th century.The Talpiot tomb proves the physical resting place of Jesus and his family for the last 2000 years.You can't always believe what you read--you have to decide for yourself.
Name:dashinvaine •
Date: 11/12/08 19:32
A: Christian tradition presumes the bodily ascencion to Heaven of both Jesus and the assumption similarly of the Virgin. According to a medieval legend, Mary Magdalene was also carried bodily into heaven seven times daily by a host of angels, from her hermits retreat in later life. Personally, I do not see how a material body can be taken into the spiritual realm of heaven, or what use it would be there.
What matters about Christ is the message he brought into the world, rather than the means by which he exited from it.
