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Name: LD • Title: But what if Mary & Joseph were NOT his parents? • Date posted: 05/07/09 8:29

Q: There were many Jesuses -- it was a common name.

Instead of assuming this was the bone box of the one who was crucified and rose again, maybe instead it was the bone box of a different Jesus who was a son of Mary & Joseph but was not the Jesus who was crucified.

What compels us to believe Mary & Joseph were the parents of the one who did the miracle healings and was crucified? other than tradition?

The two Bethlehem stories (Luke and Matthew) could well be total fiction, as they contain elements which are very antihistorical, plus the two accounts share no details in common, other than the birth in Bethlehem and the eventual arrival of Mary and Joseph in Nazareth. Without these two questionable stories, what is left to connect Jesus to the Mary & Joseph family?

There's the one story (Mk 6:1-6, Mt 13:53-58, Lk 4:13-30) about Jesus being rejected by the Nazarenes, even being violently driven out of the synagogue and almost thrown over a cliff by an angry mob (the Luke account), which is totally uncharacteristic of the way he was usually treated by the crowd.

Could the Jesus character in this episode have actually been the real son of Mary & Joseph and a different Jesus than the one who was crucified? In the accounts written down 30+ years after the actual events, this son of Mary and Joseph might have gotten somewhat morphed in with the other Jesus who did miracle healings and eventually was arrested and crucified.

We should be suspicious of this story, which depicts Jesus in a different form than all the other depictions which never have him being violently attacked by the crowd and show him challenged only by the scribes and pharisees and not by the common folks. It more resembles someone's recollection of an incident where a drunken brother in the family incited a brawl and got beat up and almost killed. The real site of the incident might have been the local pub in Nazareth rather than the synagogue.

So, what else is there to connect Jesus to Mary and Joseph?

Two references in John (1:45, 6:42) name Joseph of Nazareth as his father, but this was written by someone 50+ years later and no doubt relied on tradition rather than any direct knowledge of Jesus.

Likewise one reference in Acts (1:14) to Mary probably came from tradition, having been written down decades later.

The closest evidence that Jesus was from the family of Mary and Joseph would be the one in Paul (Gal. 1:19), which identifies James as the brother of Jesus, and this James was previously identified as a son of Mary several times.

Now if Galatians was written near 50 A.D., as is commonly believed, then this indicates there were some at that time who believed James was a brother of Jesus. This indirect link to Mary & Joseph is the best evidence that these two were the parents of Jesus. This leaves open plenty of room for doubt.

A strong reason to doubt it is that when this Mary is present at the crucifixion and at the empty tomb 3 days later, she is identified in the synoptic Gospels only as the mother of James and not the mother of Jesus. She is even identified by Mark as the mother also of Jose, another of the brothers.

So, why is she not identified also as mother of Jesus, as he is dying on the cross right in front of her? How could the writer know she was the mother of James and Jose but not know she was the mother of the Savior Messiah dying before her and for whom she was weeping?

It's true that John's Gospel puts Jesus' mother at the scene, but this account is surely the least historical and farthest removed and the most likely to create scenarios that serve theological melodramatic purposes rather than inform us what happened.

So despite the John account, we are confronted with the dilemma that all three synoptics name this Mary as the mother of James and Jose but not the mother of Jesus, thus giving us plenty of reason to doubt the whole story of Jesus being a son of Mary and Joseph, i.e., the Jesus who was crucified.

Name: QuebecIndieAnna • Date: 05/09/09 9:53

A: .

Interesting.

I also think the seeming disconnectedness between the man on the cross and the Mary in front of him is a valid point.

Indie

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Name: Panluna • Date: 05/09/09 17:02

A: Because of the cluster of names on the ossuaries that matched the names of Jesus and his family in the New Testament.

Despite the stats we are back at square one.

Name: LD • Date: 05/09/09 23:03

A: Yes, Panluna, that "cluster" of names is interesting, but what if that Jesus family with those names, identified in the Synoptic gospels and offered as the family of Jesus, was not really his family at all, i.e., not the family of the Jesus who was crucified, but rather of a different Jesus?

In other words, yes, that tomb they uncovered might contain members of that Mary & Joseph family, even their son Jesus, and thus give some archaeological verification to bible accounts, but maybe the name "Jesus" inscribed on that ossuary was that of a different Jesus than the one who was crucified, since the latter might not have been the same one who was the son of Mary & Joseph.

I suggest there is a disconnect between those two persons (once tradition is set aside), so that one can very easily doubt that they were the same. There is good reason to doubt the few biblical references identifying the son of Mary & Joseph as the Jesus who did the miracle healings and was crucified.

Of course this means setting aside a whole train of Christian tradition honoring Mary as his mother, so the entire Bethlehem episode and nativity scene tradition is overthrown. But going back and reviewing that whole tradition and legend contained in Matthew and Luke shows it to be quite dubious and deserving of much doubt and being set aside as spurious. And without the Bethlehem legend, there is little left to compel us to believe Jesus was the son of Mary & Joseph.

Name: sam • Date: 05/11/09 1:24

A: Hi LD, Panluna, and Indie Anna.

A very important question, please give me an answer, and thank you in advance.

As I do understand is that all what was written and named as "GOSPEL" came after Jesus death, so my question , " DID JESUS HAD A KNOWLEDGE ABOUT THE GOSPEL, OR AT THE LIST KNOW THE NAME "GOSPEL"?.

Because I do believe that Jesus was a Rabbi, and a teacher who read only the Bible.

God bless you all.

Q-

Name: Panluna • Date: 05/11/09 2:50

A: Hi Sam,

Good to hear from you!!! How have you been?
In an answer to your question the current Gospels were written by four of Jesus's disciples after he died and included as a testemony of his life and teachings.Some scholars say that the gospels were allegedly written by scribes who wrote down the words of the followers of Jesus.it's really hard to say what really went on in the 1st century.Even Josephus was disputed.The whole argument is what is true and what is false about Christianity's origins and what writings did they keep or throw out that was deemed important or unimportant to the developement of the Church.

Name: Panluna • Date: 05/11/09 3:00

A: LD,
One of the biggest shocks of entering the arena in this forum or reading everything that was discovered relating to the family tomb are the facts found in the investigation and how it challenges the modern church teachings. it has quite an impact.

If you take the time to read everything offered on this website you will get your answers.

I personally think that it would be extremely rare for any two or more families having the exact same names for all family members.

Did you read the book?

Name: sam • Date: 05/11/09 20:54

A: Hello Panluna,

Thank you, and I do come always to this forum to read the words of my freinds, Panluna, Indie Anna , Judith and the many others, all of whom I do respect and admire their works and their thoughts.
My sight health prevent me from doing a lot of reading and specially writing because for every line of writing I spend as much as 5 to 6 time or even more than those who write direct without going to the dictionary and thesaurus and the word perfect etc. + the age factor if you know what I mean.

I like to hear from you about how you doing , and I do wish you all the best.

God bless you.

Name: LD • Date: 05/11/09 21:49

A: I'm not sure if I'm getting my point across.

I'm suggesting that:

THE JESUS WHO WAS CRUCIFIED HAD NO MOTHER NAMED MARY OR FATHER NAMED JOSEPH.

Am I making this clear?

Panluna, you said

"I personally think that it would be extremely rare for any two or more families having the exact same names for all family members."

You apparently think I'm saying there were 2 Jesuses who each had a Mary-and-Joseph family with brothers James and Jose and Simon etc.

No, I'm agreeing there was only one such family, and maybe their son Jesus was buried in that bone box, BUT that was a different Jesus than the one who was crucified.

The one who was crucified was of unknown origin -- we don't know anything about his family. The accounts making him a son of Mary & Joseph are not reliable. We don't know the names of his parents at all.

All the biblical texts identifying him with that family are dubious, with the possible exception of the one reference in Galatians where Paul calls him the brother of James. So in about 50 AD there were some who believed Jesus and James had been brothers. That's the only credible text that connects him to the Mary & Joseph family.

This leaves open plenty of doubt whether Jesus really was in that family.

Eventually there developed a story about him being born into that family, but that story is of much later origin and may be totally fictitious.

Name: LD • Date: 05/11/09 22:03

A: Sam

The only "bible" Jesus could have had was some of the Hebrew prophets, from which he is said to have quoted. Nothing of the New Testament Bible existed during his time, and the average person did not have access to any of the Hebrew Bible either.

The NT passages where Jesus quotes from the Hebrew Prophets could well be words put into his mouth by later writers.

Name: Panluna • Date: 05/14/09 1:55

A: Hi LD,
Jesus's lineage is written in the Gospels.There is a posibility that someone else was crucified in his place or that he had a twin.

Name: QuebecIndieAnna • Date: 05/14/09 2:48

A: .

Good evening Friends.

The method of study LD uses is kind of like 'Bible CSI'. The fancy word for it is 'exegisis'. It is when specialists use languages, history, geography, accounts of historians alive at the time, study of ancient plants, ... etc., etc, etc., all different specialities, and these guys, these different specialists ping pong back and forth between themselves, mulling over the 'evidence', for decade after decade.

The pioneers in exegesis were the Germans, cause they, thanks to Luther, were the first to 'analyse' the sentences.

Exegesis, Bible CSI analysis, milks a sentence for everything it can yeild, grammatically, linguistically, and compares the data with all the available information from other specialities (archaeology, potery studies, historical account analysis..... and so on. What LD is sharing with us has to do with the findings of people who've analysed and compared the Gosples.

The simplest verse to study and understand in what LD has shared, is the one where Jesus on the cross does not seem to be related to the people present.

This is not easy material to grasp.

What I find interesting is that now, with computers, these ancient texts can be looked at anew and clearer links can be made in some cases, and, in other, an ambiguity can be pointed out where once we felt there was clarity.

Again, LD, your contributions are interesting.
One thing I have witnessed in my lifetime, is the opening up of the field of exegis to specialists of different cultural and religious backgrounds.

When I did my exegesis back in the 80s, with Catholic Jesuits, Catholic exegesis was mostly a response to the German pioneer work done earlier.

Since then, two things have happened : computers and the points of view of people who've grown up in other faiths, outside Christianity, who bring valuable insight. Jewish scholars, for example.

And, let us not forget the immense contribution in this forum, though he is not a trained exegete, of Sam, who, with his mere common sense, his varied cultural background, his Lebanese roots and Lebanese culture's great literary tradition, plus Sam's knowledge of several languages, his understanding of Mediterranean culture, and of Western cultures, who can go into depth and reason till the cows come home. :)

LD, perhaps you could share some of the steps in your own path of learning when you feel so inclinded.

Bonne soirée.

Indie

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Name: QuebecIndieAnna • Date: 05/14/09 3:30

A: .

View Dr. Beckford's entire video , Who Wrote The Bible, at

http://www.videosift.com/video/Dr-Rob-er-t-Beckfords-Who-Wrote-The-Bible-107mins

I- have now watched this video twice.
Seminary students all over the world have come to grips with the reality of literary analysis and historico-critiquing of the Bible. One might think that faith is forever shaken. Not so. Faith is changed. But not destroyed. Faith is even strengthened.

Three things I find touching about Dr. Beckford's documentary :

- he begins by going to his mother, who taught him a as child about the Bible

- when he transitions from the Old to the New Testament portion of the documentary, he begins his New Testament portion by speaking to Christians from the Palestinian community.

- he ends his documentary by referring again back to his mother's faith.

Indie

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Name: LD • Date: 05/14/09 4:56

A: Panluna,

Let me try again -- I'm not getting my point across apparently.

I'm suggesting that the Jesus who was crucified simply did not have a mother named Mary and father named Joseph. We simply do not know his family origin, let alone his genealogy.

Those genealogies you refer to, if they are authentic, could be those of a Jesus who was son of Mary and Joseph, but that is not the Jesus who was crucified.

The one who was crucified was of unknown origin and became confused with the Mary & Joseph son.

How does that make him a "twin" to someone? He was simply a different person with the same name. Those genealogies are not his -- they were mistakenly attributed to him because of the confusion with the other Jesus who was of the Mary & Joseph family and perhaps whose remains were buried in the ossuary discovered in that tomb.

I'm inclined to believe this tomb was indeed that of the Mary & Joseph family as suggested in the documentary -- I am persuaded by the evidence presented, even after allowing for the element of sensationalism and maybe some exaggeration by the producers -- yet mostly they seem to be following the evidence while their opponents seem to want to put a veil of secrecy on this discovery.

But even though the case made is strong, yet I offer an alternative to the notion that the resurrection is undermined, because that one who was crucified might well have been a different Jesus than the son of Mary and Joseph who was buried in that ossuary.

Now I will go a step farther, and this I admit is very speculative, so I'm only tossing this out tentatively for consideration: I think the Jesus who was the son of Mary and Joseph might well have been another individual called Barabbas who was the prisoner said to have been released by Pilate.

I will give some reasons for thinking this later, but for now I will point out that Barabbas's first name was Jesus -- Matthew mentions this in chap. 27:16-17 (a few versions omit it, but most include it).

I'm not sure yet if I want to stick to this theory -- it's new with me and I need to do more checking on it, but so far I like it, it fits into place pretty well. I'll bring it up again and elaborate further on it.

But again, just because there was more than one Jesus does not mean they were twins or something. All it means is that one of them was the son of Mary & Joseph, while the other one, who did miracle cures and was crucified, was of unknown origin, just like hundreds of other Jesuses in Judah and Samaria and Galilee. Just because they all had the name Jesus does not mean they were all related or all had a mother named Mary or father named Joseph.

Name: sam • Date: 05/15/09 22:56

A: Hi LD,

The truth is, there were many men named Jesus at the time of Mary and Joseph, but there is only one of them whom He is the Jesus, which we talk about, and who came with THE MESSAGE, and spoke in the name of God, and was supported by HIM in doing His miracles. But the question is, “DID THIS JESUS IS THE ONE WHO BEEN CRUCIFIED ?”.

LD, You said , answering Panluna, (a)“the Jesus who was crucified simply did not have a mother named Mary and father named Joseph...”.......(b)” could be those of a Jesus who was son of Mary and Joseph, but that is not the Jesus who was crucified.”

As for (a), you did not bring any support to this claim.
As for (b), You are guessing. [could be], Guessing if it is or it is not will never bring the truth, that is the truth.

FINDING THE TRUTH.
There are four gospels [+plus many others], and a tons of books written by scholars, professors, thinkers etc., 2000 years of work, all that which I call “ SEA OF INFORMATION & MIRAGE IN DESERT”, and if anyone try TO FIND THE SIMPLE TRUTH in diving into that mess, for sure he will be drowned, or burn by the sun that create the mirage before reaching the truth.

I say it before, that THE TRUTH ONLY BE FOUND BY THE WORDS OF JESUS, and from the people who walked with Him in the holy land, and not by those who came after His death and created their own claims which mostly for their own benefits and the benefit of the church .
The period is less than 3 Years, and what we learn about Jesus teaching and life in that period is more that enough to bring the truth.

FROM THE CRUCIFIXION TO THE RESURRECTION:

Four stories from the gospels, each has its own story, and the stories are different, but the true story is one and should be the same .
---- “There were also SOME WOMEN looking on FROM A DISTANCE........”
1- Jesus said , “It is finished ” And HE BOWED HIS HEAD AND GAVE UP HIS SPIRIT. J- 19:30
2- Jesus , crying out with a loud voice, said, “FATHER INTO YOUR HAND I COMMIT MY SPIRIT.” Having said this, He breathed His last. L-23:46
3- Jesus, cried out with a loud voice, “ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI ?, translated. “My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?. MK- 15:34
- Which one is true?.

“There were also SOME WOMEN looking on FROM A DISTANCE, among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the Less and Joses, and Salome.”MK.. 15:40“
But STANDING BY THE CROSS, of Jesus were His Mother, and His mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.”J- 19:25
From a distance....standing by the cross ?

The story goes on to tell us”

J- 20:1 Now on the first day of the week MARY MAGDALENE (only May Magdalene) CAME EARLY TO THE TOMB, while it was still dark, and SAW THE STONE ALREADY TAKEN AWAY from the tomb. (The tomb is open)
- 2 So she ran and came to SIMON PETER and the other disciple....

L- 24:1 ..........”THEY CAME” (many women) TO THE TOMB bringing the spices.....
2 ..THEY found the stone rolled away....
3- THEY entered .....
4 - TWO MEN suddenly stood near them in DAZZLING clothing. (2 men)

MK- 16:1 ...Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome...(3 women)
2/3 ....THEY CAME TO THE TOMB....THEY were saying to one another “WHO WILL ROLL AWAY THE STONE for us...(the tomb is closed)
4 LOOKING UP, they saw that stone had been rolled (then it is opend)
5 Entering the tomb, they saw a YONG MAN sitting at the right, wearing a white robe; and they were AMAZED . (1 man)

Which story tells the truth ?.

MAT- 27:50 Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.
51 ......the earth shook and rocks were split.
52 the tombs were opened, and MANY BODIES OF THE “SAINTS” who had fallen asleep WERE RAISED (!!!!) , (this story cannot be true. No one witnessed these things)
53 ....THEY ENTERED THE HOLY CITY, and appeared to many. (There is not even one name of those who seen them)

MAT- 28:1 ...the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (2 women) came to look at the grave.
2 And behold, A SEVERE EARTHQUAKE had occurred, for AN ANGEL OF THE LORD DESCENDED FROM HEAVEN and came and ROLLED AWAY THE STONE AND SAT UPON IT . (This is not a true story. Never been mentioned by the others, and cannot be accepted logically, but anyhow it good for science fiction movie, like Sindbad and Harry Poter)
5 THE ANGEL SAID TO THE WOMEN “DO NOT BE AFRAID.....!!!!

SUMMARY OF THE EVENTS:

A- AT THE TOMB:
J- 20:1 Mary Magdalene was ALONE.
L- 24:1 THEY CAME ... (that is more than one).MK-16:1 Mary Magdalene, and the mother of James and Salom.MT- 28:1 Mary Magdalene and the other Mary ( He doesn’t know exactly who is the other..)
Question-1: which one is telling the truth?.

B- THE STONE:
J- 21:1 The stone already taken away.
L-24:1 They found the stone rolled away.MK-16:4 They saw the stone had been rolled.MT- 28:2 AN ANGEL,,,,, ROLLED AWAY THE STONE AND SAT UPON IT .
Question-2 : Which one is telling the truth?.

C- THE ANGELS: Matthew, ONE ANGEL sitting upon the stone (for sure that mean OUTSIDE the tomb)....(The angel seen by THE WOMEN)Mark..... ONE MAN (ANGEL), INSIDE, sitting at the right.... (AMAZED )

(The angel seen by, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome.)Luke.... TWO MEN (ANGELS), INSIDE, ..... (DAZZLING )(The angels seen by, (THE WOMEN)John..... TWO ANGELS, INSIDE,....one at the head and one at the feet, where Jesus the body of Jesus had been lying.
(The angels seen by Mary Magdalene only (J-20:11), after the disciples went away to their own homes (J-20:10)

Question-3 : Which one is telling the truth?.

D- THE APPEARANCE: Matthew, 28: Mary Magdalene and the other Mary....Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet AND WORSHIPED HIM.
Mark, 16: ... He first appeared to Mary Magdalene (only Mary Mag.)...She went and reported....
Luke, 24: .... Two of them (2 women).... while they were talking and discussing, JESUS HIMSELF approached and began traveling with them.... BUT THEIR EYES WERE PREVENTED FROM RECOGNIZING HIM....Then their eyes were opened and THEY RECOGNIZED HIM; and HE VANISHED FROM THEIR SIGHT.Jesus said, “See My hands and My feet, THAT IS MYSELF; touch Me and see, FOR A SPIRIT DOES NOT HAVE FLESH NAD BONES as you see that I have.”

John, 20: She (Mary Magdalene) (1 woman) turned around and SAW JESUS standing there, and DID NOT KNOW THAT IT WAS JESUS .
Jesus said to her, “stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, “I ASCEND TO MY FATHER AND YOUR FATHER, AND MY GOD AND YOUR GOD.....and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, JESUS CAME AND STOOD IN THEIR MIDST...He showed them both His hands and His side. The disciples then rejoiced....Therefore many OTHER SIGNS JESUS ALSO PERFORMED IN THE PRESENCE OF THE DISCIPLES, WHICH ARE NOT WRITTEN IN THIS BOOK. (WHY NOT !!!!, are those signs not important to tell, then why they should mentioned ?)
Questions:
1- Did those people who wrote these stories understand the first commandment of God, “YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME.”
2- When they say that Mary Magdalene and the other Mary, “WORSHIPED HIM”, and, Thomas said “My Lord and My God”. Is that against the commandment of God and against Jesus word when He said,”NO ONE IS GOOD EXCEPT GOD ALONE....THE ONE AND ONLY GOD...THE SON OF MAN //THAT I AM HE....NOR THE ONE WHO IS SENT (JESUS) GREATER THAN THE ONE WHO SENT HIM (GOD)?.

3- WAS JESUS CRUCIFIED?. And my answer to that will come next,

God bless you.

Name: sam • Date: 05/15/09 22:58

A: Hello, LD,

WAS JESUS CRUCIFIED?.

A- The summary of the events, from the site of the crucifixion to the appearance of Jesus as been recorded in the 4 gospels does not hold the truth, and they are the same as the story of the TEMPTATION OF JESUS, saying that does not mean that the other stories of Jesus are not true.
Those stories which are not true, because they been told by men, But the words of Jesus when it said JESUS SAID, those are the words of the truth, Even some tried to switch a word or two for some reason, and that is wrong, and it is easy to spot these things, for example:
In the catholic bible [J-9:35] it say “THE SON OF GOD”,
while in the NT- A.S. bible [J-9:35] it say “THE SON OF MAN”
So, how can we find which one tells the truth and which one is false ?.
It is easy, all what we need is to go back to the words of Jesus, and Jesus said:
John-8:28 “WHEN YOU LIFT UP THE SON OF MAN, THEN YOU WILL KNOW THAT I AM HE”

B- If the WORDS of Jesus can led us to the truth, also we can say that His ACTIONS [they things that He performs] can led us to the truth too.

No one can doubt the MIRACLES which Jesus performed, and we do believe in the miracle at the time of Abraham , and Moses, and many others.

RAISING THE DEAD... VANISHING...TRANSFIGURED HIMSELF....CONTROL THE FISH IN THE SEA...TURNING A CLAY INTO A LIVING BIRD...
STANDING AND WALKING WITH HIS DISCIPLES AND THEY DO NOT RECOGNIZE HIM, AND THE COUNTLESS OF OTHER MIRACLES.

a)- It is possible that He might TRANSFIGURED HIMSELF or VANISHED when surrounded by His enemies?,
b)- It is possible that God sent an angel to took His place [God sent an Angel . (Abraham took the sheep and made a burned offering of it in place of his son). If we believe that happen to save the son of the prophet Abraham, same thing can happen to save the prophet Jesus.

c)- If the story about seeing Mary Magdalene first and alone is correct, Is that means that He showed Himself to the one who worried about Him most (specially if she is His wife and had a son), and the chosen one, whom He trusted to keep His secrets?.

d)- “See My hands and My feet, THAT IS MYSELF; touch Me and see, FOR A SPIRIT DOES NOT HAVE FLESH AND BONES as you see that I have.”
Is that show the truth that He is among them In flesh, and nothing happen to Him, there are no scars to show that He was harmed or crucified?.

e)- From the time when He VANISHED from the seen while among a big hatred crowd, and another took His place until the time He appears to His people [disciple], no one can tell where He was, and for sure He was not in the tomb, and after He VANISHED AGAIN forever....and then nothing left to tell.

f)- But for the writer of stories in the gospels created stories after the end of the story:

Mat-28:20 ....I am with you always, even to the end of the age. [that is what they heard from Jesus]
Mar-16:19 ...when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, [VANISHED], HE WAS RECEIVED UP INTO HEAVEN AND SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD. [that came after]
Luke-24:51 ... while He was blessing them, He parted from them [VANISHED] and was carried up into heaven. [that came after]
John 21:14 This is NOW THE THIRD TIME that Jesus was manifested to the disciples, after He was raised from the dead. [John did not see Him raised from the dead, but he tells that He appeared to the disciples three times, and that can be accepted as true.]

— We notice the stories of Matthew and John ended differently, both did not see what Mark and Luke saw, that Jesus was received into heaven and sat down... nor see Jesus carried up into heaven !!!!.

WHAT EXACTLY HAPPEN ?. HOW CAN WE COME TO AN ANSWER?.

Since there are many different and conflicting stories about the crucifixion and the resurrection which will led us to nowhere except confusion, then let’s go to the words of Jesus:
John-14:26 But the HELPER, the holy spirit, WHOM THE FATHER WILL SEND IN MY NAME, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said.

Here, we understand that the HELPER mentioned by Jesus is not here yet [not born yet], but he is the one which will be sent after, from God..

John-16:13 But when He, THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH, COMES, He will guide you into ALL THE TRUTH; for HE WILL NOT SPEAK ON HIS OWN INITIATIVE, BUT WHATEVER HE HEARS, HE WILL SPEAK; and HE WILL DISCLOSE TO YOU WHAT IS TO COME.
16:14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and disclose to you.

If anyone claims that Paul is the one, he should remember what Paul’s words are:
NOT FIT TO BE CALLED AN APOSTLE.....LET NO ONE THINK ME FOOLISH...I HAVE BEEN CRUCIFIED WITH CHRIST....I ROBED OTHER CHURCHES.....I DO ALL THINGS FOR THE SAKE OF THE GOSPEL [his friends gospels]....I MAY OFFER THE GOSPEL WITHOUT CHARGE?.....LET US DO EVIL THAT GOOD MAY COME !!!.....I AM NOT LYING....THE SON OF GOD, WHO LOVED ME AND GAVE HIMSELF UP FOR ME....I AM NOT LYING....etc.

Of course Paul glorified Jesus, and to the point that he claim Him as the son of God, WHILE Jesus said He is the son of man and a prophet many times.
I don’t see in his work except a personal letters, for his benefit and the benefit of his associates in other churches. Talking about, travels, wages ,gifts, advices, attacks and warnings, [shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love. 1Cor4:21] . Paul has nothing of the sprit of the truth, and speak his own wards and never disclose anything of what is to come.

If Jesus said, that God will send someone [HELPER] after He is gone, then there is no doubt that. But the question does anyone in the early churches look at the future to see if that helper will come ?, or they choose the helper themselves from among themselves, changing the rules that the one whom God send, always chosen from the descendant of Abraham, and none of the been known to anyone until after their birth. No one knows about the prophets, Abraham or Moses or Jesus or Muhammad until they are born and grown up and started the work that God gave them, as for Jesus it was 30 years, and Muhammad 40 years. And all the Prophet had a good honest life from their childhood and until the end, and Paul lack all that and his words prove it;
1Cor-15:9 ....I persecuted the church of God.
Rom-6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God....
Paul is a sinner from the beginning, and claims to be free from sin and a servant to God after, but he done wrong by open the door for the church to claim Jesus as God, and that makes him the biggest sinner of all.

DO YOU THINK THAT THE HELPER CAME OR HE WILL COME?, I leave this discussion for the next post.

God bless you.

Name: Panluna • Date: 05/15/09 23:00

A: LD,
That is definitely a new angle to examine.What is your basis or source?It could be more logical than anything else offered.

Name: LD • Date: 05/18/09 23:53

A: This is of course speculation. But it fits the known facts reasonably well:

That "Jesus son of Joseph" bone box may really have been that of Jesus Barabbas, who was the real Jesus son of Joseph and Mary. This one, along with Judas Iscariot, was a militant follower of Jesus, or a zealot who favored violent revolution against Rome. There were probably many of these among Jesus' followers.

That famous "cleansing" of the Temple scene, where Jesus started a brawl, throwing around the furniture and kicking out the moneychangers, sounds like an attempt to start an uprising. Rather than Jesus the miracle-healer, this was more likely Jesus Barabbas, who was then arrested when the uprising didn't succeed, and he was charged with murder, probably because someone got killed in the melee.

This Jesus had a name, Barabbas, which might really have been a title, and suggests that he almost was posing as a rival to Jesus in trying to be a leader of this rebel cause.

The name "Barabbas" means "son of the father", and this isn't just any father, but the Father that speakers of Aramaic prayed to. The title "Abba" is used almost as a synonym for "God". So this militant follower of Jesus (or rival?) had a name (or title) that meant "Jesus, Son of God" or "Jesus, son of the Father" or "Jesus, Son of God the Father".

With a name/title like this it is easy to see how people may have confused him with the other Jesus who was being called son of God and King of the Jews.

Perhaps Judas betrayed Jesus when he saw that the other leader, Jesus Barabbas, had been arrested, and the authorities may have thought they had the ringleader of this rebel group in custody, and yet they suspected there was another who was the real ringleader and was the truly dangerous one who needed to be eliminated, for, even though he did not resort to violence himself, yet he was the real rallying point for the rebel movement, which would collapse if he were eliminated. And Judas was tired of Jesus not resorting to force and was disappointed in him for not calling for a violent uprising. And Jesus Barabbas had taken a chance, trying to start the uprising himself, hoping the crowd would join. Rather than plannning to be crowned King himself, probably he was hoping the other Jesus would then seize the opportunity and lead the revolt and claim his throne.

But the revolt fell flat and Jesus B was arrested and was awaiting execution for his crime. Being sympathetic to Jesus B, Judas went to the authorities and arranged a swap -- he would deliver the one they really wanted, but in return the authorities agreed to let J B go free, because he was not really the dangerous one they needed to have removed.

Isaac Asimov says ("Guide to the Bible") there are those who believe Jesus Barabbas and Jesus Christ were the same person. That's another plausible theory. But it doesn't explain the story of letting Barabbas go free. That story on its face is untenable. It makes no sense to say a prisoner was released as some kind of ritual. And why this particular prisoner? But if Jesus Barabbas was a militant leader attached to the Jesus movement and had started an uprising with this attack on the Temple, it explains why he was arrested and why the Romans and high priests were interested in getting the other Jesus instead and would let the lesser Barabbas character go free as a swap.

There's little compelling reason to think Jesus Christ (the one crucified) was the son of Mary and Joseph. Whether their son was Jesus Barabbas or some other Jesus totally unknown, the best evidence connecting the Christ figure to Mary and Joseph is the mention of James as his brother, and there is good reason to consider James as a son of Mary and Joseph, because she is called the mother of James at the crucifixion scene (but not the mother of Jesus who is dying in front of her).

What evidence is there that Jesus was a brother of James? Only two references in Paul, one where he names James as "the Lord's brother" and another where he refers to "the Lord's brothers" without naming James. However, this might be a tradition which was not literally true.

There are two epistles supposedly written by brothers of Jesus -- the epistle of James and the epistle of Jude.

Whether either of them was really written by those brothers, it is unlikely that the authors were brothers of Jesus or that whoever really wrote them thought James and Jude were brothers of Jesus, because neither of those epistles identifies the author as a brother of Jesus. Each author is identified as a "servant" of Jesus Christ, and in Jude, the author is identified as brother of James. Now, if Jude was also brother of Jesus, why wouldn't the introduction say so, instead of only identifying him as brother of James?

So there is much reason to doubt the whole tradition of Jesus Christ being one of that family, and instead there is reason to believe there was another Jesus, a lesser figure who is little mentioned, who was the real son of Mary and Joseph and one of the five brothers, i.e., Jesus, James, Jude (Judah), Jose (Joseph), and Simon.

So that infamous bone box with the inscription "Jesus son of Joseph" was likely not that of the Jesus who was crucified, but of the other Jesus, possibly Jesus Barabbas. And if so, then this discovery does not undermine the resurrection story. And although the Bible account is confused and probably has inaccuracies, the discovery of this tomb and others in that area are serving to corroborate the historicity of much of the biblical account.

Name: Panluna • Date: 05/20/09 18:23

A: LD,
Very interesting theory.it still makes Jesus human and could also explain why he said "Don't touch me as i have not ascended to my Father" when his followers saw him standing at the tomb...and he could have escaped to India!!!! The Romans really didn't know what he looked like!!!All they knew was the prophecy that Rome would be overthrown and yet was it really?---the seat of the Christianity is in Rome--the Vatican!!!!

Mary Magdelene could have escaped to Gaul validating the Grail legends and maybe Jesus met her there---they say there is a footprint left by him somewhere in France....they could have established the Gnostics, early church forerunners of the Cathars who knew the secret and kept the Book of Love that Jesus wrote all the time the Romans were batling the early Christian Church developing in Rome.Turkey and other places while the early Christian movement went underground...this is one version of the story...most people believed the miracle of the resurrection not knowing that the Aramaic word for burial is resurrection...there could have been subtifuge to confuse the Romans but why go after a man of God's Words when they already executed the one who they thought was the criminal?Did they realise they made a mistake ?

Name: sam • Date: 05/20/09 22:18

A: Hi Panluna, Hi LD,

When LD said, “but what if that Jesus family......, not the family of the Jesus who was crucified, but rather of a different Jesus.”-------- “The one who was crucified was of unknown origin .”

Then, in his post [05-18-09], he gave his own version as what happen, and there are many other versions, but which one is the true story ?.
In LD post, it started with, “This is of course SPECULATION. But it FITS the KNOWN FACTS REASONABLY WELL.”
---- The KNOWN FACTS has no room for SPECULATION, logically speaking.

And at the end I noticed many words like, “PERHAPS Judas {Perhaps never bring the truth}....there is much reason to DOUBT {doubt never reveal the truth}....TWO JESUS, JM & JB {that will bring the third and the fourth, there were many at that time} ......the other Jesus, POSSIBLY Jesus Barabbas {possibly, may be or may be not, will lead no where}.....Bible account is CONFUSED and probably has INACCURACIES {“the Bible full of contradictions and errors, and the gospels cannot be trusted to be reliable” as the Bishop J.S. Spong mentioned that is true, and he said, “A God or a faith system that has to be defended daily is finally no God or faith system at all” .
People are trying to defend this system in many ways, and while they doubt what came to them by their books, they still insist on believing in it.
The discovery of the tomb did not prove that the gospel is right, but proves that the gospels cannot be trusted.
And, You quoted, “There is a POSSIBILITY THAT SOMEONE ELSE WAS CRUCIFIED IN HIS PLACE or that he had a twin.”

The Christians People are not really looking for the truth of things, but they looking for things that go side by side with what they already believe in as the truth, and that will never brings the whole truth, and for sure.

What I wrote in my previous two posts, showing that the stories about the crucifixion and the risen from the dead CANNOT BE TRUSTED TO BE RELIABLE, and NEVER BROUGHT THE TRUTH.

HOW CAN THE TRUTH BE FOUND.

In real life, there is a very SIMPLE WAY to look for the truth, and as an example:
If two people or more are telling different stories about “A” person , that will by itself rise A DOUBT about the truth in their stories, but the question is,
- Do we blindly accept every thing said about the “A” person?,
- and is it FAIR TO JUDGE “A” PERSON, by the words of the others without hearing his words?.
- and do we think, that to BE FAIR to the “A” person, is to go direct to him to come to the truth, since he is the main subject that the people say different things about him?.
- and if we still in doubt, to search beyond, and see if there are others to support the “A” person.
- and to get to truth, we should not forget to BE HONEST, and use the logic and the common sense.

The discovery of the many writings from that period, [Judas gospel & others], then the discovery of the tomb in the last few years proved that the gospels and the teaching of the church were not honest in giving us the truth about the crucifixion and the rise from the dead in their stories, and there are many documents ,as I understand, been put under lock, and hidden in the vaults of the Vatican , just to protect the church, because the church is more important than the truth and Jesus.

The, “ POSSIBILITY THAT SOMEONE ELSE WAS CRUCIFIED IN HIS PLACE “, is a question which came after 2000 years from Panluna, and she is one of many who had this question in their mind, and all that comes because of the DOUBT of the stories which been told by the gospels.

1400 years ago, the answer for the crucifixion and the rise from the dead story came from outside the church, and the church did not accepted only, but they try to fight it in every way they can, and that was not a new thing for them because they burned and destroyed many gospels and killed and burned people just to keep what they choose, and keep themselves and their churches in power.

1400 years ago a BOOK came to tell us the story:

And for their saying, “Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, JESUS, the son of Mary, the messenger of God .” AND THEY DID NOT KILL HIM, NOR DI THEY CRUCIFY HIM; BUT ANOTHER WAS MADE TO RESEMBLE HIM TO THEM.

Is that, a POSSIBILITY ?, and it is the same to what Panluna came with, “SOMEONE ELSE...”

If we believe in Jesus, and His miracle, .....TRANSFIGURED HIMSELF.....VANISHED...APPEARED IN A DIFFERENT FORM....THEIR EYES WERE OPENED AND THEY RECOGNIZED HIM; AND HE VANISHED FROM THEIR SIGHT.

And the BOOK said:
And Indeed, those who DIFFER over it are in DOUBT ABOUT IT,

What LD and Panluna and the many others are saying today, prove the DOUBT, and they DIFFER in the way to explain it, but they follow ASSUMPTION. And that came clear in the BOOK when it say:

They have no knowledge of it except THE FOLLOWING OF ASSUMPTION. And they did not kill Him, for CERTAIN.

While the people DIFFER, AND IN DOUBT, THIS BOOK IS CERTAIN OF WHAT IT BRINGS from information. And that followed by :

Rather, GOD RAISED HIM TO HIMSELF. AND EVER IS GOD EXALTED IN MIGHT AND WISE.

The BOOK gave us the story of Mary and Jesus. Mary the Mother of Jesus mentioned in a full chapter (19) , in 98 verses, and more verse throughout the book, and tell us more about Her than all the gospels and the letters put together, and hold Her in higher place, as from what we see in the gospels:

And when the Angels said, “O Mary, indeed God has chosen you and purified you AND CHOSEN YOU ABOVE THE WOMEN OF THE WORLD.”

And when the Angels said, “ O Mary, indeed God gives you good tidings of a word from HIM, whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary- distinguished in this world and the hereafter and among those brought near [to God].

HE WILL SPEAK TO THE PEOPLE IN THE CRADLE ,{that is a miracle too}, and in maturity and will be of the righteous.”

But the gospel said,:

.....His Mother and brothers were standing outside, SEEKING TO SPEAK TO HIM.
Someone told him, Your MOTHER and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.

He replied to him, Who is my MOTHER......? Mat-1246/:47/48

First the people who knew Her and His brothers did not give them any respect, to welcome them or invite them in.
Second, I cannot believe that Jesus will treat His mother at the least in this way, and will not question His mother motherhood in a such way to bring His ideas.

Did Jesus said ,:
For God said, 'Honor your father and MOTHER' and 'Anyone who curses his father or MOTHER must be put to death.

But the gospels said, that Jesus said:
DO NOT THINK THAT I CAME TO BRING PEACE ON THE EARTH; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her MOTHER.......etc. Mat-10:34/35.

Can that be true?, While Jesus said:
“BUT I SAY TO YOU, LOVE YOUR ENEMIES AND PRAY FOR THOSE WHO PERSECUTE YOU”

“The first commandment . LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD.....
The second. YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF. There is no other commandment greater than these.” Mar-12:30/31

In Matthew story we see a lot of hate in the words of Jesus, and that is not right, because the story of Mark tells us that the greatest commandment are built on the LOVE OF GOD, AND THE LOVE OF THE NEIGHBOR.
Jesus teaches love and peace, and will never use the sword, not even by word, and will never teaches hate, and while He had the power of bringing life to the dead he never used that power which He owns to put living people to death, not even against the one who hurt Him and wish Him death. {Moses used His power to bring disasters upon the people of pharaoh}

People of the churches and their followers whom been brain washed, and programed not accept anything not approved by their popes, bishops, cardinals, they will not dare to think for themselves, or choose for themselves, or question their teachings, they are afraid from being excommunicated, and all what the church and its followers can put on them from pressure, and THE BOOK, THE QURAN, UNDER NEVER ENDING AWFUL ATTACK, while it is the only book which brings a true scientific information.

“ALL HEAVENLY BODIES, IN AN ORBIT ARE SWIMMING”
“AND WE MADE THE SKY A PROTECTED CEILING”
“It is God who created seven heavens AND OF THE EARTH, LIKE OF THEM”

Not from very long we start to understand those things, and today we know that all the stars and the planets in all the galaxies are moving in an orbit, also we came to understand that we are protected by the few layers of air which include the OZONE, and today scientists start to find other planets, and they say “if the chance is 1 to a billion, then there should billions planets like earth.

“GO TRAVEL THROUGH THE EARTH AND OBSERVE HOW THE CREATION BEGAN.”

The Quran is the only book which gives the people the full and unlimited freedom to search for the truth, while the church and their teaching punish even those who dare to bring ideas from outside the church, and even it will bring the truth, and one easy example, GALILEO:

“Galileo famously declared that the Bible teaches how to go to heaven, not how the heavens go”
“There were two occasions (1616 and 1632) when Galileo was called to Rome over the truth of Copernicus' theory. As a result of inspecting Galileo's letter, in February 1616, it was agreed by the Inquisition that:
1) the immobility of the Sun at the center of the universe was absurd in philosophy and formally heretical,
2) THE MOBILITY OF EARTH WAS ABSURD in philosophy and at least erroneous in theology”
1.
In (1) the theory of Galileo “The immobility of the sun at the center of the universe” was ABSURD, not only to the church people but to all the people of the world , because they believed that the sun is moving around the earth, and the earth is the center of the world. Of course they were wrong.
And Galileo was wrong too, and the science after him proved that the sun is moving in an ORBIT around the galaxy.
And the Quran before 1400 told us that ALL HEAVENLY BODIES, IN AN ORBIT ARE SWIMMING.

In (2) Galileo was 100% right, and the church 100% wrong. But the QURAN was right.

“Papal decision to censor Copernicus 'De Revolutionnibus ,because a heliostatic claim was CONTRARY TO THE LITERAL MEANING OF SCRIPTURE.”
The papal and the scripture word forced on people even when they are wrong .

“Pope Urban VIII decided in June that Galileo should be imprisoned for life. Galileo was then interrogated under threat of torture, and made to abjure the 'vehement suspicion of heresy'. He was sentenced to life imprisonment. Galileo spent the rest of his life at his home at Arcetri, under house arrest with the archbishop of Siena. Pleas for pardons or for medical treatment were refused “

Galileo suffers and humiliated by the church for the work done to bring the truth about the earth and the sun and the planets around us.

The Quran, asked us to find all the truth and even HOW THE CREATION BEGAN, and God in HIS word in the Quran gave us some information about our world, also gave us the permission to go and find for ourselves all HIS work as far as the beginning of time.

God bless you.

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