Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Title: Catch-up history of text analysis •
Date posted: 01/06/08 15:23
Q: Hello to all.
I have come to this forun in Jan 08.
Perhaps this discussion took place.
But, I think it useful to not that this forum brings together people with different approaches to ancient literature analysis.
I hope someone will add to the very simple history of the development of text analysis I now give :
- the printing press was invented
- Luther posted his findings on a church door
- modern text analysis (exegesis) was born
- German exegetes pioneered modern exegesis
- the priests in my family's church (catholic) joined in modern Bible exegesis and Rolan Devaux wrote most of the footnotes in the first edition of the catholic Bible de Jérusalem
- others followed in his footseps
- with the advent of computers and the development of historical sciences in the modern State of Israel, the Christian hegemony over Bible exegesis gave way as exegetes from the Judaic tradition and secular specialists from fields outside of exegesis (history, archaeology, forensics...) opened up research and made it more inter-disciplinary.
When there is talk of religion, what happens ?
Out of the shadows come the voices of people of all walks of life, each of us with our own history :
I am French-Canadian and Inuit, and Irish and Scotish.
My catholic ancestors might roll over in their grave at the present discussion. Each of us, at one point or another, experience the shock of text analysis.
What many are going through now, because of this even, is what 1st year seminary students have gone through for decades! They got over it. Most went on to live faith-filled lives. Those in shock over the event of Talpiot, might take comfort in knowing that those of us who have done formal theology studies, we all went through a period of destablisation; 2nd year seminary students observe 1st year students after 3 months of study, to watch for signs of " the shock ".
Spirituality survives the input of history, text analysis and archaeology.
Spirituality changes. But, it survives.
Indie Anna in Quebec, Canada
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/06/08 16:07
A: New Testament Exegesis 101
For those of us who read post on this forum who have no standard training in New Testament text analysis method the basics are as follows :
In the Bible, the part called 'The New Testament' has 4 main books called Gospels, and another section with Letters. In between is a book called The Acts of the Apostles.
The four main books are
Marc (the oldest, or earliest book)
Mathew and Luke (who use material from Marc)
John, a book which seems to have a distinct source
These books cover time up to the death of Jesus
The Acts of the Apostles
This book covers the period following the death of Jesus
The various letters
These cover the spread of early Christianity.
Some might have heard experts speak of 'The early Jesus Movement',
as if it is different from what is written. Why?
Think of an event like the death of Elvis Presley, or Édit Piaf, or Nasser, or Ghandi, or Mao, or Stalin, or Hitler :
what is known about them by their intimate circle, toward the end of their lives, and, what becomes known about them 10, 20, 30 years after, is different.
If you are 40 years of age, ask your son or daughter what they know of Charles De Gaule, or Winston Churchill, or Hitler. Then ask your mother or father. What are the differences?
DeGaule, Churchill and Hitler each lived through the Great Depression of 1929. We're in 2008. Seventy years. We have tv, computers, and technology to help children learn about 1929.
Now, take the years 2008 and 1929, and subtract from each of those years the following numbers of years : 1900
What do you get ?
1929 2008
-1900 -1900
----------- -----------
the year 29 the year 108
Year 29 is about when Jesus died.
Year 108 is about when some Gospels were abridged.
Year 1929 is the year of the economic crash.
Year 2008 is now.
Eighty years of interval separates us from 1929.
Eighty years of interval separated some New Testament writing.
A parent who is 40 years old now who asks his or her child of 13 to say what 13 year old children know about 1929 they will get one answer.
A parent who is 40 years old now who asks someone who is 85 years of age what they know about the economic crash of 1929, they will get another answer.
Text analysis, exegesis, tries to uncover the differences between what the 13 year old child, the 40 year old parent and the 85 year old grand-parent might say about the same event.
Indie Anna in Quebec Canada
Name:Panluna •
Date: 01/06/08 19:22
A: As far as I'm concerned the Bible can be read verbatum or read between the lines.It's also been used for Bible prophecy.There is software available for that.There are many books that are not included in the Holy Bible as it is published in it's current form.THE OTHER BIBLE edited by Wallis Barnstone is a good source for reading those texts.I am currently reading The Book of Mormon for another angle.The Lost Gospels and those of Mary Magdelene will give you an intimate view of her life with Jesus.Anything written during the 1st century is legit.Why the early church fathers left these books out of the main canonical text is still a mystery to me.Maybe they didn't feel that those works were important enough to fit or they conflicted with early church ideology.
Welcome to the forum.There are many really good ,educational posts and a few obnoxious ones.I learned a great deal from the many people who contributed and I went on my own quest for knowledge and the ultimate Truth and in the process I increased my library by quite a few interesting volumes added this past year.I buy my own copies so that I can take my time reading when I'm not busy doing something else.I'm just the average everyday person.I'm not a scholar but I like learning about everything.
Your public library should be able to get a copy of any book you request but if you like to own your own copy Amazon.com is a good place to buy from.That's usually where I get my stuff.
Everything goes in cycles and repeats itself over and over again.Every generation learns their own lessons and it's only the originals that count as legit.Words and stories handed are heresay and it's the person who walks in their own shoes and lives in one's own skin that knows their truth about themselves based on that person's perspective of reality.We are who we are and who other people think we are.Personally I don't take anyone for their words.Sometimes it's good practise to weigh the facts and sift through information gleaned from research which is only as good as the writer's contribution.I like to make up my own mind about everything.
Enjoy the forum.There is plenty of information contributed by the sponsors and the research team.
Bright blessings,
Panluna
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/07/08 4:28
A: Thanks Panluna, for the welcome.
As one having only seen Simcha's documentary a couple of days ago,
this is all very new. I saw him interviewed with James Cameron on CNN, a tv channel we get here in Canada, but even that interview, I only got around to seeing it about a month ago.
This phenomenon has been going on since March 07.
So, I'm way behind everybody else.
I have read Dr. Tabor's web pages and brushed up on my exegesis (which was very rusty, indeed).
Peace,
Indie
Name:Panluna •
Date: 01/07/08 16:44
A: Indie,
I've been posting on this forum since last year when I watched the documentary which aired last Winter,2007 on The Discovery Channel.Believe me it's had quite an impact but on the whole it's been very educational.I expect the controversy to continue for a while longer.I missed the CNN program--the interview.
I'm curious about something and maybe you can answer my question.You wrote that you are part Innuit.My question is: There are many different native tribes in the Americas-----Did they speak a common language understandable by all of the tribes or did each tribe develope their own dialect? In other words :Did each tribe have the same word meaning the same thing or was it different among the groups.I've often wondered if they had actually warred among themselves before the European settlers arrived in the "New World' or since there was plenty of land if their territorial boundaries were respected and the tribes lived at peace with each other.I know that they lived by and respected Nature.
All I know of Native American culture is what I've watched on TV and seen in the movies.And I was always curious about their myths,legends, history and culture.I just recently read about the Hopi Prophecy Stone.
I hope you don't mind my asking. Thanks.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/07/08 17:18
A: Panluna
The Inuit live farther north than do the Dene (Indian) tribes.
The Inuit are a more monolithic cultural group in the sense that they live with snow and ice and , traditionally, hunting and fishing.
The various Dene tribes (American Indian tribes) are a veeeery
diverse group of cultures.
In Quebec City, a specialist by the name of Denys Delage, who is an antrhopologist, has done extensive research on North Eastern Dene peoples. Also, Jose Arallaino, originally from Mexico, an engineer, married someone from Quebec, Canada and he has become a specialist in Dene history.
90% of Native populations were dead from European bacteria before the year 1600. So those of us who look Native, are necessarily of mixed blood.
In Quebec, Catholicism became the dominant religion, but as a culture, we maintain a strong link to nature.
Indie
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/13/08 17:09
A: View You-Tube clips on who wrote the Bible
Mark Gooacre is a prof at Duke.
He has included on his page (scroll down) You-tube clips.
See the 'Menu' and navigate to 15 different clips.
http://www.ntgateway.com/weblog/
Mark Goodacre is Associate Professor of New Testament in the Religion Department at Duke University.
These clips have explanations that I am able to follow.
To follow them, I use my four years of text analysis studies.
If you listen to these clip, keep in mind that they present
historical text analysis information that normally
students take in over a four year period of university
studies.
Remember that all seminary students go through, during their first year of study, a kind of shock, at the realisation at how much God leaves up to
humans in the writing of his 'Word'.
All of my classmates, at a Catholic university in Canada,
came through that shock of first year text analysis studies
and went on to lead faith-filled lives.
All were able to change the way they b e l i e v e to include the
idea that once in a rare while it is possible to read a verse in a literal way.
But, often, the texts need to be explained.
If today, you travelled with a scientist who explained toxic subtances in the environment, and listened to that scientist explain environmental issues to peoples of different geographical location, you would note that
what that scientist might say to the Inuit, to Mediterraneans, to Amazonians, to Autralians, to the Chinese, to industrialists,
will present issues in ways that relate t o the listeners of the message about the environment.
To the Chinese, coal emissions would be stressed.
To Amazonians, tree cutting would be stressed.
To some, river pollution would be stressed.
To some, recycling would be stressed.
To some water consevation would be stressed.
To each audience, different aspects of environmental issues would be stressed.
A Gospel addressed to people who know about prophesies, will responde to a Gospel that related to prophesies.
The poor will respond to a message with another slant.
The Greeks will respond to a message with another slant.
The Romans will respond to a message with another slant.
As you view these You-Tube clips, keep in your mind, the analogy of the environmentalist travelling around the world, speaking to different audiences, adapting what is said, to be meaningful to a particular audience.
These clips are at a level that I, with my degree in theology,
with my major in exegesis (text analysis), I can follow.
I have to stop and replay some of the clips,
cause I'm rusty as hell in my recollections of my studies
from the 1970s, but, I manage to follow the clips.
So, if you find some of the information unusual,
give yourself a break.
Enjoy your study.
Indie Anna in Quebec, Canada
Name:Panluna •
Date: 01/13/08 17:50
A: I'll look it up, thanks.
Name:Jesussaveyou •
Date: 01/17/08 21:29
A: I thought Jewish loves Christian and consider us brothers. But totally wrong they distort the true history of Jesus Christ and the foundation of the body of Christ/church/. If someone challenges them and tells the truth they call you anti Semitic and mention holocausts as excuse for their deeds.
I got some answer about what they believe and teachings from this site take time and read some of the articles.
http://www.revisionisthistory.org/
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/17/08 22:31
A: Hello J Saves You.
The site you refer to (that of M. Hoffman) and its " revisionist views ", denies the Holocaust.
As one having been raised on the border between France and Germany in the 60s, a mere 15 years after the war, I witnessed first-hand the sheer hatred of one group of people for another. I saw with my eyes the numbers tatoed onto the arms of the parents and grand-parents of my primary school friends, who had been in the camps.
You have in me a witness, who lived 20 minutes from the France-German border, in the 60s. Yes, I witnessed hatred in the hearts of Jews for Christians. But, by far, I witnessed far more hatred for Jews in the hearts of Christians.
This site exists because of the deep love and respect of a Jew for Christians Scripture and tradition.
This site exists because of the deep love and respect of a Jew for
bringing to light the bone boxes of a man and of a woman who
spoke a message of love.
I am deeply disturbed by your post.
I am deeply saddened by your post.
I am deeply surprised by your name (J saves you) and the contradiction of what you write.
I do not care to have you contribute to a page I began, in the spirit of mutual respect.
I have not clicked the " Poor Taste " button on this site,
and have you removed from this site, but I will if you post your
views again.
Indie Anna
Name:Jonn •
Date: 01/19/08 3:43
A: I was surprise to find out the Jews Talmud (Anti -Christ Book) said about Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. When I compared what the Muslim Quran said about Jesus Christ.
It is the weirdest book (Talmud) I ever read. So how can they get peace and stable life in their country with denying Jesus? They are still paying the price! I am praying to the Lord to give them mercy and revelation. Our precious Jesus Christ gave us peace, salvation, Eternal life, healing to our spirit, soul and flesh. He changed our attitude and perception of this world. I don’t have words to express my deep satisfaction after he changed my life. He is our bride and will come take us to live with Him. Bless be the almighty God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who gave us his only begotten son.
Name:Anchorite •
Date: 02/02/08 2:37
A: Dear Quebec chick,
Some advice. Posting here can be deeply deeply upsetting. And to be honest, not many of these people bring answers.
But I do. And I won't disrespect you. Near Ottawa. Coffee?
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 07/06/08 14:14
A: .
.
Sunday morning, july 6th, 2008
Begun in Jan of this year, I come back to this page for the first time since Jan 17th, 2008.
I wish to speak of a tablet, mentioned in the NYTimes, today at
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/world/midd-leeast/06stone.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin
But- first, to Anchorite, who wrote to me just above :
thanks, "chico", for the invite.
It'll have to be virtual café, which I am drinking at the moment,
after my early Sunday morning walk.
Bonne journée.
Okay, so, allow me to quote (paste, actually), from the NYTimes article :
--------------------------------
ARTICLE TITLE :
*****Tablet Ignites Debate on Messiah and Resurrection *****
By Ethan Bronner, July 6th, 2008
JERUSALEM — A three-foot-tall tablet with 87 lines of Hebrew that scholars believe dates from the decades just before the birth of Jesus is causing a quiet stir in biblical and archaeological circles, especially because it may speak of a messiah who will rise from the dead after three days.
(See link above)
--------------
What I wish to say about this article is the following :
Eons ago, when I did my studies in Bible exegeSis, the only exegeTes we studied, were the works of German exegetes, and, in my case, Catholic exegetes, French speaking ones, from Quebec and from France.
My working tool was the big Jerusalem Bible, with its footnotes mostly by a Catholic priest by the name of Roland Devaux.
Since the 1980s, and because of computers, scholars from other cultures and denominations have exploded open the hegemony of Bible exegesis.
As Jewish scholars have slowly become more familiar with the work of Christian scholars, they have forced those of us from Christian traditions, to consider what they have to say about
'our' biblical exegesis.
I would venture to say that Mr. Jacobovici's movie can be taken as a gentle nudge that there needs to be more collaborative scholarship between Christians and Jews. I do not suppose that that is what his intention was. But I chose to take it that way.
I would also venture to say that Mr. Jacobovici's demeanor in the press conference (see Discovery Channel site), which announced the premiere of the movie, can be taken to be an invitation to both Christians and Jews to take a deep breath, and calmly greet each other ANEW, with gentle and childlike curiosity and respect for the traditions and histories of one another.
The article referred to above, about a tablet that possibly confirms a messianic tradition of resurrection, alive in the decades that preceded the birth of Jesus of Nazareth, is just such an occasion for Jews and Christians to follow Simcha's example of simple curiosity and desire to understand fully where we each 'come from' theologically.
So, once again, thank you Simcha, for setting a beautiful tone.
Let the rest of us follow your example and that of Mr. Cameron, and allow to grow a new era of inter-denominational scholarship.
As Prof. James Charlesworth said at the conference earlier this year, it is wonderful to see humanist specialists as well as those of different faiths working in collaboration.
May this continue.
May each faith be willing to revisit its history, its theology, its doctrinal history, and let new evidence relax the choke-hold of some doctrinal stances.
Is my prayer on this bird-chirping, July Sunday morning.
Indie
.
Name:Judith •
Date: 07/06/08 17:29
A: Wow Indie
Out of the shadows come the voices of people of all walks of life, each of us with our own history :
I am French-Canadian and Inuit, and Irish and Scotish.
My catholic ancestors might roll over in their grave at the present
Your almost as mixed as I am ( Lot's of Laughs}
Name:Judith •
Date: 07/06/08 17:55
A: Panluna
I'm curious about something and maybe you can answer my question.You wrote that you are part Innuit.My question is: There are many different native tribes in the Americas-----Did they speak a common language understandable by all of the tribes or did each tribe develope their own dialect? In other words :Did each tribe have the same word meaning the same thing or was it different among the groups.I've often wondered if they had actually warred among themselves before the European settlers arrived in the "New World' or since there was plenty of land if their territorial boundaries were respected and the tribes lived at peace with each other.I know that they lived by and respected Nature.
Might find the languages in "Natural History of Western Wild Animals and guide for hinters, trappers, and sportsmen" by David W. Cartwright who was commisioned by the printed 1875 written by Mary F. Bailey, A. M. and I think there is only one copy at a University Wisconsin. I am sure there are several of these travelers who had some one write up their experiences.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 07/06/08 20:11
A: .
Hi Judith.
Quebec City (in the Province of Quebec, Canada), is the city in French Canada that is about 3 hours east of Montreal, on the Saint Lawrence River.
The Saint Lawrence River is where the waters from Niagara and the Great Lakes end up. Those waters continue on east until they empty into the Atlantic, where the baby seal hunt happens every March.
Quebec City was founded in 1608. So the French Canadian Capital is putting on its birthday party dress this summer... Lots happening in Q-City this summer....
As for your question about the Inuit and Dene (AmerIndian) tribes, I said a little about them in a post above, on this page. The Inuit live farther north than do the Dene (Indian) tribes. The Inuit are a more monolithic cultural group in the sense that they live with snow and ice and , traditionally, hunting and fishing.
The various Dene tribes (American Indian tribes) are a veeeery
diverse group of cultures.
A few years ago, there was a maaaarvelous series that aired on US TV stations, PBS probably, ... it was, like, 11 hours or so! It was fantastic.
They managed to interview representatives from all the major tribes of Native North Americans. They showed how greatly different the tribes were the ones from the others. Some tribes being more war-faring, others being more pacifist and matriarcal.
Up here in my neck of the woods, the expert whose writings I've read (in French) are those of a historian-anthropologist by the name of Denys Delage, who teaches in Quebec City at the university there.
It would seem that one of the sources for the idea of democracy and of "confederation" in the Americas comes from a loose political structure of confederated tribes whose "grand central meeting place" was in the area of the Great Lakes.
Also, Jose Arallaino, originally from Mexico, an engineer, married someone from French Canada, and he has become a specialist in Dene (Indian) history. I think he writes in English... Not sure about that.
What struck me is when I took my courses is that 90% of Native populations were dead from European bacteria before the year 1600.
So those of us who look Native, are necessarily of mixed blood, to varying degrees.
The the far north, the Anglican Church is now more prevelant.
The Government of Canada just signed an official apology (June 2008) to survivors of abuse in the so-called Residential Schools; these were Catholic boarding school where Dene children were sent, by force, and forbidden to speak their native languages.
The most spectacular efforts to save and rejuvinate aboriginal culture, in Canada, in recent years, is the creation of Nunavit, in the far north of Canada, where Inu populations have their own political and educational structures.
Just Google the word 'Nunavit' and read on.
Peace,
Indie
.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 07/09/08 2:56
A: .
Cool.
I just read Dr. Tabor's latest addition to his blog.
He comments on an article by another author, on the tablet I refer to above.
A: Hi Indie
Thought you might be interested in a diary of a little girl who was on the Mayflower. It was found in and old trunk and finally published.
Dear America , A Journey to the New World , Diary of Remember Patience Whipple
Page 131 August 25, 1621
Dear Imp
Today I was out in the file near the large pind. I wandered to the inland end of the pond and heard children laughing. It could have been our pilgrim childen. for when Indian children laugh it does sound just like ourselves, which makes me think all children on earth must laugh alike. I crept closer and couched down in the bery bushes and peered through.There, were the lily pads grow so thick, a half a dozen Indian children were swimming and diving. When they came up they were clutching the roots of water lilies, They are gathering them for something . I shall ask Squanto .
But what is amazing to me is that these children are all so strong and healthy despite playing about in the water. We have been taught to fear water, not simply because one might drown but because we think that it washes off the body's natural protection. I am beginning to wander about this now. I think if it is not true. I shouls like to learn how to swim. I of course would not go naked.
A lawer, asked Him [JESUS] a question, testing Him,
"Teacher, which is the great COMMANDMENT in the law ?"
And He [Jesus] said to him,
"YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
THIS IS THE GREAT AND FOREMOST COMMANDMENT.
THE SECOND IS LIKE IT,
'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'
"ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS DEPEND THE WHOLE LAW AND THE PROPHETS."
- THE WHOLE LAW... Those are the many commandment which God sent to the world by HIS messengers, the prophets.
- THE PROPHETS... Are the messengers whom God chose to carry His words and His law.
"Do not think that I have come TO ABOLISH THE LAW OR THE PROPHETS ; I HAVE NOT COME TO ABOLISH THEM BUT TO FULFILL THEM."
Jesus answered, "THE FOREMOST IS, 'HEAR O ISRAEL ! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD"
Jesus said to the Jews [The people of Israel] , "THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD " , and that means that the God which Jesus believe in is THE SAME GOD which the Jews belived in, that is the same God who spoke to Moses and gave Him the law of God, the commandments, AND GAVE JESUS THE WORDS TO WHAT TO TALK AND TO SPEAK . *
THE FIRST COMMANDMENT ...... YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER gods BEFORE ME.
THE SECOND, .... YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FOR YOURSELF AN IDOL, or any LIKENESS of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.
THE THIRD.....you shall not take the name of THE LORD YOUR GOD in vain......
* "For I did not speak on MY own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me HAS GIVEN ME A COMMANDMENT [COMMANDMENT] as to WHAT TO SAY and WHAT TO SPEAK.......... I SPEAK JUST AS THE FATHER HAS TOLD ME."
Jesus follow the commandment that been given to Him by God, and speaks the words which God told Him to speak, and Jesus miracles are done by the will of God, and not by His own will.
"I CAN DO NOTHING ON MY OWN INITIATIVE......I DO NOT SEEK MY OWN WILL, BUT THE WILL OF HIM [THAT IS GOD] WHO SENT ME"
" These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me. "
Dear Indie, When I read the letters of Paul , and read that Paul is the one who preached that Jesus is the son of God after Jesus death, and reading the stories of the Trinity which was created in Rome, and keep hearing that Jesus is God, all that are really very confusing, and here some taken from the catholic forums, which I do not understand after reading the true words of Jesus:
Jesus claimed to be God .
Jesus is called God.
Jesus is the image of the invisible God. - Heb. 1:3
Jesus abides forever - Heb. 7:24
Jesus created all things - John 1:1-3; Col. 1:15-17
Jesus is before all things - John 1:1-3; Col. 1:17;
Jesus is eternal - John 1:1,14; 8:58; Micah 5:1-2
Jesus is honored the same as the Father
I see that there are two persons who created all the above,
The first is Paul, and what he wrote is his own opinion, things that he created, the thing that Jesus never said and never teaches, we can see that clear when we we read the words of Jesus above.
The second is John, and what he wrote also is his own opinion and did not come from Jesus, because Jesus words are clear and tells the truth, so, what John wrote is wrong and do not represent Jesus, and it is against the commandment of God
Let me bring John writing :
[The deity of Jesus christ]
1- In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God...... up to the end....
Those are the words which been spoken by John, and created by John, thy do not belong to Jesus , because Jesus said:
This is eternal life, THAT THEY MAY KNOW YOU, THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST WHOM YOU HAVE SENT.
---- KNOW YOU.....JESUS NEVER SAID "THAT THEY KNOW ME THE ONLY TRUE GOD".
GOD , the true God whom HE sent Jeus, and that means Jesus is a messenger, and a prophet who does the will of God and not His own will.
Indie, I do believe in Jesus words, the word of God, and I do love God with all my heart, but I do not understand why the Christian claims that Jesus is God after reading all what Jesus said about Himself and God, please give me an answer ?.
Are the words of Paul and John and the others can be trusted when bringing things that is against the word of God and HIS commandment, and the words of Jesus ?.
God bless you.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
INDIE WROTE TO SAM
Date: 04/12/09 23:44
Hi Sam.
The Church has been preaching for so many centuries now its doctrine.
The best response I can give you is 'habit'?
A poor answer, I know.
But, when it was proposed that the earth was round, the Church had much difficulty also in admitting that it was so.
Those who do text analysis also are able to continue to suppport the 'God' doctrine. That is is more important to believe in a man-God
than in saving the planet, or rescuing children from danger,
is beyond me.
Take care.
Indie
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
JUDITH WROTE :
• Date: 04/13/09 1:46
Hello all,
Sam you brought out some good comparisons.
I have a few of my own.
I have heard in Churches the verse "Before Abraham I Am" is used to express that Jesus was God. But it does Not say "Before Adam, I AM" there are many generations accounted for when Theologians use that to convience people that it is saying Jesus is God.
And Also if The Book of Hebrews is taken in conscideration Jesus is likened to Melchizadeck, who was before ( stood before Abraham ) and if Melchizdeck was King of Salem the words "I AM" have a meaning not explained in the Bible, and would be more toward the Hindu trend of thought.
No one knows who wrote the book of Hebrews, some say Paul and many Bibles say Paul, but if you read the footnotes you see they are not sure and it really did not sound like Paul to me.
I have plenty for whom I have sought forgivness from, and many I have forgiven.
I will not confront them for it would only cause more division, and some people are so unreasonable, why give them more to use against you which would only cause them to sin more.
That is like not being able to kill rats due to the fact that it may be a sin.
But it is Ok to hiire someone else to kill the rats in a home,
letting someone else sin for me .
How silly.
I just do what makes sense avoid both and get a cat, who does it for pleasure and a living.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
INDIE WRITES :
Hello Judith. Your exegesis teacher taught as mine did me : Paul probably did not write the Letter to Hebrews. So, we both have taken Bible text analysis courses.
Your greeting 'Hello All' & your greeting to Sam in your post makes clear that I am the other person you are addressing.
Such is my analysis of the text of your post.
The lines you wrote on the subject of forgiveness are addressed to me.
In this forum I created two pages where I was hoping only prayerful thoughts would be expressed : "A Prayer For Today"; "The Sollicitude And Forgiveness Page".
If you wish to continue the rat-cat analogy, may I request you continue it here, on this page?
Indie
.
Name:Judith •
Date: 04/14/09 18:47
A: Hello Judith. Your exegesis teacher taught as mine did me : Paul probably did not write the Letter to Hebrews. So, we both have taken Bible text analysis courses
Hello Indie
Sorry no teacher, I read many books though , and prayed for many years for truth only. That's not to say I am not a sinner , I think I have done way to many sin's although , Jesus said if you even thought it , you did it. So much is to be forgiven by many .That's not to say I have it all, just that I truely do believe Jesus was and still is a Great Master , so I asked.
If I had a teacher it was those that I have told you about in the past, I firmly beileve I was walked through the Bible by Angels, not credit of my own.
Hope you all had a great Holiday, I also have a different take on Easter, and now know that I recieved my information right back in 1995 from a higher level . I stated man was perpetually pregnant and now it has been proved that the donated sperm in a petrie dish does indeed recognize the fathers voice from several rooms away. My belief also came from the verse in the Old Testament "Man Shall not Spill His Seed Upon the Ground or Earth" My Question to that Higer source was Why is there nothing about the Female. LOL
Well it is because She has a dormant Egg, (possibly Soul) and he has life of that sperm ( spirit ) I think there for I am ( I AM ) and you have to have some sort of thought pattern to hear and make recognition. You can find that study spoken of in "The Spontanerous Fulfilment of Desire" by Deepak Chopra. There Deepak tells you the name of the Doctor who discovered that, and the tests that were run.
Name:sam •
Date: 04/15/09 21:07
A: Hello Indie,
When you said, ““The Church has been preaching for so many centuries now its doctrine.
The best response I can give you is 'habit'?
A poor answer, I know.”
I do see that your answer is GOOD one. Since people grow up taking ALL what been given to them from teaching as they are the right one and cannot be questioned to become ‘THE HABIT’.
But I would like to add something very important that comes before the habit’, and which makes the habit’ a habit’ and doctrine. It is what I call “INHERIT”, and people inherit their beliefs and their religion. The holy word of God and the unholy words of man, been put together, and forced the people to accept them as a whole package. The word of God and the words of Jesus has to depend on the words of Paul, John, Mark, the popes and the bishops to became acceptable, and the word of the Quran has to depend on the words of Muhammad [the Hadith] and the words of the Imams to be practiced !!!!. And after the people do follow everything that came from the churches and the mosques and the temples blindly, and that is wrong.
Jesus said,
“ A blind man cannot guide a blind man, can he? Will they both fall into a pit?.”
And the Quran said,
- “And when it is said to them, ‘Follow what God has revealed, ‘ they say, rather, we will follow that which we found our fathers doing.’ Even though their fathers understood nothing, nor were they guided. ”
“For I did not speak on MY own initiative”.......”I SPEAK JUST AS THE FATHER HAS TOLD ME. **** "
“And WE have not sent you, [O Muhammad], over them as a manager”
“And WE have already sent messengers before you, [before Muhammad], and assigned to them wives and descendants. **** AND IT WAS NOT FOR A MESSENGER TO COME WITH A SIGN EXCEPT BY PERMISSION OF GOD. FOR EVERY TERM IS A DECREE.”
God bless you.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 05/11/10 0:14
A: .
Mai 10th 2010
Hello.
Am re-watching Kingdom Of Heaven tonight.
I wonder if a comprehensive docu film has ever been done on the inception of the Islamic faith.
Anybody?
Indie
.
Name:sam •
Date: 05/12/10 23:56
A: Dear Indie,
The answer to your question, I say there are few Arabic movies and decomentaries done on the inception of the Islamic faith.
Just yesterday we watched the 30th episode {45 minutes each] and the last, of "SADAKA WA'ADAH" DELIVER WHAT HE PROMISE in Arabic,
and it was aired by the Arabic channel "A R T".
As we know, the stories about Islam never been in the interest of the "west', by the Christians or Jews, and while they produced many films and decomenteries in the mostly Jewish owned studios about Moses , Jesus, the budhist and the mayans etc., they stopped from bringing the true stories of Islam , because they been against that religion and tried to destroy it from the beginning, and the joined hands even with those who worships idols, and they spread lies and fight the those who eccepted the new religion.
Indie, if you read the history of Jesus and those who followed Him, you will find that what had happened to them is the same. Jesus and His followers suffered a lot from the Jews, the Romans and others, and Muhammad and His followers suffered a lot from the Jews and the Christians and from the many Arab tribes who worshipped idols[ 360 idols gods] and even from "Quraish" the people and the familly of the prophet .
The only film that I knew, is done by an Egyptian producer [I saw the film in Sydney Australia in th 70th], and the following is what I find from " THE WIKIPEDIA" AND YOU WILL FIND A LOTT OF GOOD INFORMATION IN THE NET,
Muhammad, Messenger of Allah (retitled The Message for U.S. release) is a 1976 film directed by Moustapha Akkad, chronicling the life and times of the prophet of Islam, Muhammad. Released in both Arabic and English (in Arabic: الرسالة— , Ar Risalah), Mohammad, Messenger of God serves as an introduction to early Islamic history.
The film follows Muhammad's first years as a prophet starting with Islam's beginnings in Mecca in which the Muslims are persecuted, the exodus to Medina, and ending with the Muslims' triumphant return to Mecca. A number of crucial events, such as the Battle of Badr and Battle of Uhud are depicted, and the majority of the story is told from the point-of-view of peripheral individuals such as Hamza ibn ‘Abd al-Muttalib (Muhammad's uncle), Abu Sufyan (the leader of Mecca) and his wife Hind bint Utbah (enemies of Islam who later become Muslims themselves).
Director Akkad faced resistance from Hollywood to making a film about the origins of Islam and had to go outside the United States to raise the production money for the film. Lack of financing nearly shut down the film as the initial backers pulled out, financing was finally provided by Libyan leader Muammar al-Gaddafi. The film was shot in Libya and Morocco, with production taking four and a half months to build the cities of Mecca and Medina as they looked in Muhammad's time.
Director Akkad saw the film as a way to bridge the gap between the Western and Islamic world, stating in a 1976 interview:
{ In accordance with Muslim beliefs regarding depictions of Muhammad, he could not be depicted on-screen nor his voice be heard. }
English version:
Anthony Quinn - Hamza
Irene Papas - Hind
Michael Ansara - Abu Sufyan
Johnny Sekka - Bilal
Damien Thomas - Zayd
Michael Forest - Khalid
Donald Burton - Ammar
Ewen Solon - Yasir
André Morell - Abu-Talib
Wolfe Morris - Abu-Lahab
Rosalie Crutchley - Sumayyah
Arabic version:
Abdullah Gaith - Hamza
Muna Wassef - Hind
Hamdi Gaith - Abu Sufyan
Ali Ahmed Salem - Bilal
Ahmed Marey - Zayd
Mohammed Al-Arabi - Ammar
Hassan Al-Jundi - Abu Jahl
Mahmud Sa'eed - Khalid
God bless you Indie.
Name:sam •
Date: 05/15/10 23:15
A: Hello, Dear Indie,
A few lines from "wikipedia" about Islam , written by Christians:
Historians generally agree that Islamic social reforms in areas such as social security, family structure, slavery and the rights of women and children improved on the status quo of Arab society.[166][167] For example, according to Lewis, Islam "from the first denounced aristocratic privilege, rejected hierarchy, and adopted a formula of the career open to the talents".[166] Muhammad's message transformed the society and moral order of life in the Arabian Peninsula through reorientation of society as regards to identity, world view, and the hierarchy of values.[168] Economic reforms addressed the plight of the poor, which was becoming an issue in pre-Islamic Mecca.[169] The Qur'an requires payment of an alms tax (zakat) for the benefit of the poor, and as Muhammad's position grew in power he demanded that those tribes who wanted to ally with him implement the zakat in particular.[170][171]
Slaves
Main article: Muhammad and slavery
The Qur'an considers emancipation of a slave to be a highly meritorious deed, or as a condition of repentance for many sins. Therefore Muhammad was the owner of slaves, whom he bought usually to free[172], including concubines (although this claim is disputed) [173], a wetnurse, and one slave he bought, freed and adopted as his son (Zayd)
Islamic social reforms in areas such as:
SOCIAL SECURITY,
FAMILY STRUCTURE,
THE RIGHTS OF WOMEN AND CHILDREN
For example, according to Lewis, Islam "from the first denounced aristocratic privilege, rejected hierarchy, and adopted a formula of the career open to the talents".[166] Muhammad's message transformed the society and moral order of life in the Arabian Peninsula through reorientation of society as regards to identity, world view, and the hierarchy of values.[168] Economic reforms addressed the plight of the poor, which was becoming an issue in pre-Islamic Mecca.[169] The Qur'an requires payment of an alms tax (zakat) for the benefit of the poor, and as Muhammad's position grew in power he demanded that those tribes who wanted to ally with him implement the zakat in particular.
The Qur'an considers emancipation of a slave to be a highly meritorious deed, or as a condition of repentance for many sins. Therefore Muhammad was the owner of slaves, whom he bought usually to free[172], , and one slave he bought, freed and adopted as his son (Zayd)
Indie, Before 1400 years, the Quran brought many laws to every aspect of our daily life and for the benefits of the people, and those three witch mentioned before are just an examples.
BUT:
On the other hand there was non stop attack from the Jews and the Christians on Islam and Muhammad from the first days, and is still going strong up to this day [1400 years later], and in their attacks, they use every dirty lies they can create, and for me just for reading their false claims and about the history of the churches and their leaders give the thoughts that that christianity religion is far from the teaching of Jesus as I read His word and find it so different from what His followers are doing.
Here some of the Jews and the Christians lies:
.........biographical knowledge about the life of Muhammad, though they interpreted that information through a Christian religious lens that viewed Muhammad as a charlatan driven by ambition and eagerness for power, and who seduced the Saracens into his submission under a religious guise.[14] Popular European literature of the time lacked even this knowledge, and portrayed Muhammad as though he were worshipped by Muslims in the manner of an idol or a heathen god.....Bernard Lewis writes "The development of the concept of Mahound started with considering Muhammad as a kind of demon or false god worshipped with Apollyon and Termagant in an unholy trinity.
Dear Indie, can you see lies, and up to this day there are more lies fabricated.
Muslims believe in one God, you can give it any name and that will never change a thing, and that is the God wich Abraham and Moses and Jesus believed in,[ do not forget Jesus words "...THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD"]
Muslims believe that Muhammad is no more than amessenger and a prophet , and that came very clear in the Quran, so why they lie ?.
You go to the "catholic online forums" and you will see for youself how dirty they can go in attacking the Islam and Muhammad and the Muslims, what a shame that to happen today and call ourselves civilized in the 21st century !!!. I tried to bring the truth and explain to them the wromg of what they claim, and what happen is "George" throw a scam that wiped out a portion of my 'word perfect, and then block me from entering the forums, and that is not fair in any logic.
God bless you.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 06/11/10 11:29
A: .
Hi Sam. Hope you and your family are well.
I look forward to the summer.
Last night PBS (Vermont, channel 33) re-aired
"The Rise And Fall of Islamic Spain".
I happened on it by accident and taped the 2nd hour.
I also found the documentary on line.
This doumentary is wonderful. From my history courses in theology, I understoon the history of Southern Spain and Islamic society's golden age.
I reccommend this documentary.
Wish that this documentary, which looks at the 1100 to the 1400s
could follow an equally well done documentary on the 500 to 700s.
Indie
.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 06/11/10 11:30
A: .
The Rise And Fall of Islamic Spain
http://www.youtube.-com/watch?v=CE-F2tybkDQ
.-
Name:sam •
Date: 06/12/10 23:35
A: Hello , Indie.
Thank you. We are fine, and we hope that you are having a good summer time. God bless you.
I openned the site on 'youtube' {the rise and fall of Islamic Spain}, and it was interresting, even I had a lot of reading about this subject.
I understand from my search, and from this decomentery, that the people of Spain suffered a lot under the control of their kings whom been under the control of the popes of Rome, and the Spaniards christians and Jews were better off under the Muslims rullers.
All what we can say about that is "they been taken out from the dark age to the golden age.
Muslims give the christian and the Jews the freedom of practicing their own religion, even some came to work with the muslims in high occupations.
I read about the crusades and their way of dealing with the people [muslims and jews and even christians 'non-catholics'] after the defeat them, and what a different !!!.
The christian crusaders brought destruction into the countries that occupied [1095-1291] , while the muslims gave the christians the good things, let me bring what I read:
"Effects of the Crusades - Intellectual Development
The influence of the Crusades upon the intellectual development of Europe can hardly be overestimated. Above all, they liberalized the minds of the crusaders. The East at the time of the Middle Ages surpassed the West in civilization. The crusaders enjoyed the advantages which come from travel in strange lands and among unfamiliar peoples. They went out from their castles or villages to see great cities, marble palaces, superb dresses, and elegant manners; they returned with finer tastes, broader ideas, and wider sympathies. The crusades opened up a new world. Furthermore, the knowledge of the science and learning of the East gained by the crusaders through their expeditions, greatly stimulated the Latin intellect, and helped to awaken in Western Europe that mental activity which resulted finally in the great intellectual outburst known as the Revival of Learning and the period of the Renaissance."
"Effects of the Crusades - Material Development.
........In addition to the effects of the crusades on material development various arts, manufactures, and inventions before unknown in Europe, were introduced from Asia. This enrichment of the civilization of the West with the "spoils of the East" can be seen in the artefacts displayed in modern European museums."
If anyone with open mind reads the history of Islam and the muslims and compare it with the history of the christianity and the christians, will find the figures which shows exactly how nuch each one of them kiled and destroyed and burned people alive and slave more people and wipe out cites and nations and even animals. just do the calculation, and it is so easy.
I am not against religion or people or color or sex, or anoyone, just I hate people spreding lies and lies against the Muslims people and OK the killing of 500 000 Iraqi children by the American Jews and a woman !!!,
God bless you.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 06/15/10 1:35
A: .
Hi Sam.
It is nice to talk to you again. I have more time at this time of the year.
Near Montreal, we are enjoying cooler weather, which we find nice for sleeping. Hot nights are sleepless. I liked today's rain and tonigt's cool. Better breathing. During the fires recently in Quebec, we had a few days of constant smoke.
I am glad things are good for you in Toronto.
Sam, I read what you typed;
I also read some of the comments by people on that page.
I found that most were not thoughtful or balance.
One or two were.
Did you have time to watch the video on that page ?
The Youtube video "Rise & Fall Of Islamic Spain" was
interesting. I ask if you saw the video, because, in your answer
just above, you mention your reading, not your watching.
Number 2 :
I wish to mention a second video I watched last night.
The title of this Youtube video is "An Islamic History Of Europe".
This 2nd video was done by the BBC.
Information about the Muslim journalist :
http://en.wikipedia.org-/wiki/Rageh_Omaar
Link- to the Youtube video :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0-IaCK-7z5o&feature=related
Abou-t- this second video :
- it is done in 'commentator style', (whereas the 1st video I mentionned
was 'dramatized' with actors.
I find that the two videos complete one another.
I will make some observations about the 2nd video ("The Islamic History Of Europe") :
- at one point an older gentleman is speaking in Spanish;
he asks his grand-daughter to translate into English for him;
when his grand-daughter speaks about the more advanced
state of the culture in the South of Spain centuries before
the so-called "Renaissance", she uses the term
Oriental Culture.
- this is different from the term that the journalist uses;
throughout the video, the journalist uses the term
Muslim culture.
My ear picked up on that nuance.
So, now, my question is the following :
- the more enlightened state of the culture in the South of Spain from
the 700 and 800s, is it due to the religion of Islam, which was a
mere 100 to 200 years old?
- was Islam, because of its rapid expansion north and west of Arabia,
merely the carrier for the more evolved Oriental culture?
When they show the beautiful work of the artisans, the enginers,
the stone masons, the builders, the carvers, the irrigation systems,
the court culture of translation, of education,
was all this generated by Islam? Or, was this culture of enlightenment
part of an older, well established Oriental culture, and was Islam's rapid
expansion simply the conduit for the spread of the more enlightened
culture.
In the second video, he speaks of the Jewish community in the north-east of Spain, which also was very advanced, so again, I wonder if the journalist is using the term "Muslim Scholar" when it would be more
accurate to use the term "Oriental Scholar"?
Ibn Rusht (Averoes) is mentioned as being probably the most important
one, as he translated Aristotle into Castillan.
If my memory serves me correctly, Scott then translated Ibn Rusht's translations from Castillan into Latin. The Latin translations would have then gone to Paris, where, in time, they became the ideological motor for the Renaissance.
I have mentionned before that I have always wanted to learn Arabic so that I could read poetry. Well, each summer I give myself 2 or 3 projects.
If I am able to line up my work projects for the fall, I think that this summer I will buy some CDs and try to start learning Arabic.
Oh, the other thing I wanted to ask you about was the movie, done in France, called "Skirt Day". I hope you can see it and comment on it.
Well, I am not on vacation yet, so I will not write for a week or two.
But, take care. Talk to you again this summer.
Indie
.
Name:sam •
Date: 06/22/10 12:26
A: Hello.
Dear Indie, I wish very good summer days, and all the best in everything.
Yes, I did watch ‘The youtube video "Rise & Fall Of Islamic Spain" and it was interesting, and thank you for it, and I appreciate much if you send me any like it in any historical subject. Also, I did watch the video of "An Islamic History Of Europe" , thank you for mention it to me.
The second video is a complement to the first one, and seeing both bring us closer to the truth of Islam, away from the distortion, and the lies witch were fabricated mainly by the other two religions, and witch started from the day one [1400 years ago] , and never stopped till this day , {THAT IS A FACT}, And from these videos we can come to understand the Arabs in particular, and the Muslims in general in their way in going to war to spread the word of God and the religion of Islam witch is “ TO WORSHIP GOD ONLY”, and accept all His messengers from Noah to Muhammad and that include Moses and Jesus, and follow God’s words witch came by all HIS Messengers, and the Quran too.
In your last post you did ask several questions and I will answer them soon.
God bless you.
Name:sam •
Date: 06/22/10 12:38
A: Hi Indie,
Part ONE .....Subject: Spain under the rules of Muslims.
---In the second video it mentioned “THE INVASION OF SPAIN WAS SWIFT AND BLOODLESS”. Of course there were many battles between the armies, and many soldiers killed from both side, so, we can ask how it can be bloodless?, the answer is the Muslims after winning the battle they never take revenge and kill innocent people, and they never destroy, or steal properties. And for the people of the book [Christians and Jews] they never been forced to change their religion, and they got the full freedom in their worshiping,[THIS IS A FACT].
Those who are against Islam claims that the Muslims forced a big taxes against those who do not accept Islam, but the fact is, that every Muslims had to pay the “ZAKAT” it is a sort of tax too in a different name. IN FACT the Christians and the Jews were benefitted by what the Muslims provided for them, and in fact they pay less taxes than those when under the rulers of Rome and their mercenaries, and of corse they prosper and have better life and better freedom and free education etc.
Name:sam •
Date: 06/22/10 23:21
A: Hi Indie,
Part TWO.....Muslims in North Africa before taking Spain.
The death of Muhammad 632.
7years.To the conquest of Egypt 639
26 years. To the conquest of north Africa 665.
46 years. To the conquest of Spain 711.
Tareq Ibn Ziad [689 - 720], a 22 years old Muslim Berber, led the invasion of Spain by an army of Arab, Berber and many others .
From that we find that in a short time [46 years] the people of North Africa and mainly BERBER joined the Islam religion, and from among them came Tariq Ibn Ziad {considered to be one of the most important military commanders in Iberian history}, and there are many others who joined Islam and who came from Egypt, Persia, and other part of the world and became leaders not in battles but in sciences, art , etc., under the Muslim rules.
From ,BBC-Religion:
---- “The Muslim army defeated the Visigoth army easily, and Roderick was killed in battle.
After the first victory, the Muslims conquered most of Spain and Portugal with little difficulty...”
---- “One reason for the rapid Muslim success was the generous surrender terms that they offered the people, which contrasted with the harsh conditions imposed by the previous Visigoth rulers.”
---- “
The Golden Age
“The Muslim period in Spain is often described as a 'golden age' of learning where libraries, colleges, public baths were established and literature, poetry and architecture flourished. Both Muslims and non-Muslims made major contributions to this flowering of culture.”
{MUSLIMS AND NON MUSLIMS CONTRIBUTIONS.... what make that possible ?...the answer in part THREE.}
---- “
A Golden Age of religious tolerance?
“Islamic Spain is sometimes described as a 'golden age' of religious and ethnic tolerance and interfaith harmony between Muslims, Christians and Jews .”
{INTERFAITH HARMONY BETWEEN MUSLIMS CHRISTIANS AND JEWS....WOW....IS THAT GREAT...AND HOW FROM WHERE THAT CAME ?. this question will be answered in part THREE}
“The non-Muslims of Islamic Spain (at least before 1050)WERE TREATED BETTER THAN CONQUERED PEOPLE MIGHT HAVE EXPECTED DURING THAT PERIOD OF HISTORY.
- they were not forced to live in ghettoes or other special locations
- they were not slaves
- they were not prevented from following their faith
- they were not forced to convert or die under Muslim rule , AT THAT PERIOD UNDER THE CHRISTIANS OR OTHERS RULERS “YOU CONVERT OR YOU DIE”
- they were not banned from any particular ways of earning a living; they often took on jobs shunned by Muslims;
these included unpleasant work such as tanning and butchery
but also pleasant jobs such as banking and dealing in gold and silver
- they could work in the civil service of the Islamic rulers
- Jews and Christians were able to contribute to society and culture
God bless you.
Name:sam •
Date: 06/24/10 18:02
A: Hi Indie,
Here are few lines, and I hope that you read my previous posts, "part ONE & part TWO" , before the conclusion which I am to bring later.
{ Re:- older gentleman is speaking in Spanish; he asks his grand-daughter...Oriental Culture }
Dear Indie, it is wise to listen to those who had knowledge, in science , history etc., but to take the words of anyone from the crowd who arbitrary claims things is not right thing to do. There are so many of them at all time.
So, in my next post I will try to explain how the Mislims came to acheive so much in so short time.
I did a lot of research to bring what I beleive is more logical than arbitrary.
God bless you.
Name:sam •
Date: 07/02/10 2:02
A: Hello,
Dear Indie,
I am watching the firework in the Square one mall [Mississauga], from my place only few hundred metres east of the mall. Happy Canada day.
Hope you have a good summer time, and waiting to hear from you.
This my forth post, hope that you read the previous one before this, so you get the full answer to your questions in the post dated [06-14-10]
Q — MUSLIMS AND NON MUSLIMS CONTRIBUTIONS.... what make that possible ?.
----- ISLAM, THE BOOK, THE RELIGION, THAT WHAT MAKE IT HAPPEN. If you study the Quran you find the proof to all that, but if want me to bring some examples I will be glad to.
Q — INTERFAITH HARMONY BETWEEN MUSLIMS CHRISTIANS AND JEWS....WOW....IS THAT GREAT...AND HOW, FROM WHERE THAT CAME ?.
----- That came in written laws by the Quran, and Muslims just follow God’s laws, that what make it possible.
Dear Indie,
About your following questions
Q ---- the more enlightened state of the culture in the South of Spain from
the 700 and 800s, IS IT DUE TO THE RELIGION OF ISLAM, which was a
mere 100 to 200 years old?
My answer is YES. And there are many evidence to prove it:
1- From the Christians, and other Empires side:
---- THE DARK AGE IN EUROPE, mainly due to those who govern the Roman churches [east or west] whom were in control over the many kingdoms, and in total control of their population, and the education and learning mostly in the hands of the church peoples, and anyone who try to bring new knowledge became a HERETIC, and the penalty can be burning to death, and that goes to the many Empires all over.
Building temples, roads, bridges by using slavery cannot be counted as an advance to those who build them, we should not forget the many thousands who died in building the pyramids, and the Greek and Roma temples.
---- Egyptians, Persians, Greeks, Romans etc., and even Christians kingdoms they follow the same path after winning the battle, and conquer other people, always they are cruel, killing, slaving, abusing women, burning properties, even destroying libraries, many good work in books been lost, and stealing is another part .[drunk soldiers do more harm than anything else, and it is within all empires except Islam]
2- From the Muslims side:
---- Quran 29:20 O MUHAMMAD, SAY TO THEM , “GO TRAVEL THROUGH THE EARTH AND OBSERVE HOW THE CREATION BEGAN.”
{THE CREATION is the works of God, and Islam religion gave the world THE TOTAL FREEDOM TO SEARCH FOR THE TRUTH, [TO ACQUIRE THE KNOWLEDGE], WITHOUT ANY LIMITATION, that what help the Muslims to achieve all the work, and to help others to share with them, to bring THE GOLDEN AGE TO THE WORLD, AND NOT ONLY TO SPAIN.
---- Unlike the Byzantines, with their suspicion of classical science and philosophy, the Muslims were enjoined by the Prophet to SEEK LEARNING AS FAR AS CHINA” [the words of Muhammad] - as, eventually, they did. ...... {From wikipedia }
Q ---- WAS ISLAM, because of its rapid expansion north and west of Arabia,
MERELY THE CARRIER for the more evolved Oriental culture?.
NO.....The truth is that the Christians, Jews and others try always to deny the Muslims anything that they achieved, and for sure they will deny the Islam religion as the MAIN FACTOR in opening the road for the FREEDOM OF THINKING, REACH FOR KNOWLEDGE, AND TOLERANCE WITCH HELP OTHERS TO JOIN IN TO BRING BETTER LIFE FOR ALL.
Indie, please tell me if what came in the Quran in 29:20 and by the words of the prophet above are great thing to follow, and a great words to bring people into the road of knowledge ?.
People of Arabia before Islam, they been in the dark age too, and Islam is the only thing that help the Arabians and others to come to the gold age in Mecca, Baghdad, Damascus, Cairo and Cordoba, and without Islam the golden age might delayed for centuries, and might not come at all.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 07/04/10 18:51
A: .
Sunday, July 4th 2009
Hi Sam.
Thank you for the Canada Day wish. I too watched fireworks from our balcony, on June 24th, which is the French Canadian Day, Saint-Jean.
I read all of your posts and found them interesting. Last night, we rented the movie with Denzel Washington, called "The Book Of Eli". It is about a man who commits the Bible to memory... The story is about a kind of "Dark Ages" returning to the world and Eli (Denzel W.) is charges with the safe keeping of the Bible.
I found interesting the idea of imagining what written words I would want to save if all the books in the world were to be destroyed. The movie forces the viewer to imagine a world where most books have been destroyed and only very few people can read.
In one of your posts above, you talk about the real "Dark Ages", when Europe was mostly living under the control of a few of the elite who could read and who kept and copied books.
It is difficult to imagine now, because of the Internet and computers, how very miraculous it must have been to be in the South of Spain in those years beginning in 711. To the conquest of Spain 711.
You mention Tareq Ibn Ziad [689 - 720], a 22 year Berber, who led the invasion of Spain and is considered to be one of the most important military commanders in Iberian history.
I had to smile, because one of my good friends from the hills of Algeria is always telling me how the Berbers are the greatest people in the world. He is light-skinned and he has red in his beard, so I kid him about probably having some Scottish or Irish blood in his veins. He looks at my dark hair and turquoise eyes and tells me that I probably have a bit of Arab blood mixed in with my Irish, Scotish and Canadian Indian blood.
We have been having coffee and tea at our café for years and we never stop trying to convince one another that Celtic village culture is the best in the world or that Arab village culture is the best. We enjoy one another's company and pretending our respective cultures is the best is just our way of sharing. When he tells me stories of childhood, I feel like I am in the hills of Algeria with him. When I tell him stories of my grand-mothers in Scotland, he listens too.
I will read all your posts (above) again tonight. But, if I understand correctly, you are saying that even if with the spread of Islam there was a transmitting of Oriental knowledge, Islam itself was, from the start, responsible for a blossoming of culture.
Questions :
Would this have been in part due to the bringing together of the different Arabian tribesmen within the new faith?
In my history courses during my theology degree, I remember that because Mohammed's parents dies when he was young, he was brought up by his uncles and he travelled a lot as a boy. Would this exposure to different tribes as a young boy have made him thirst for the wisdom of multiple cultures? Without a strong hierarchy in Arabia, such as the Catholic hierarchy in Europe, would there have been more freedom of thought, more exchange of ideas?
The documentary explains that Mohammed's teachings did not rest well with tribal leaders and they rose up against him. But, I wonder if Mohammed's faith was able to take hold in part because there was not in Arabia a big structure like the Catholic Church, but instead, only smaller, tribal chiefs?
One thing is for sure :
the Occident had ignored the Orient and its history for so long that it is not easy for us to go back and see where and why and how the East and the West were once mutually interested in one another. I cannot say how fascinated I am to learn about the translating of books, in a "schools of translation", located in the South of Spain, of the works of ancient Greeks, into Castillian and then into Latin.
This means that human civilization already came close to losing all of that knowledge.
This means that the movie with Denzel Washington, "The Book Of Eli", which is just a Hollywood work of fiction, represents in a small way, something that sort of happened, in the South of Spain, in the 8th to the 12th centuries.
And, it makes me laugh to think that Ibn Rushd (Averoes) was probably Berber too.
It makes me laugh to think that the person who translated Rushd's translations from Castillian into Latin was a person by the name of Michael Scot, from Scotland! My friend from Algeria will smile when I tell him and say to me : "You see? You and I must be descendants of Rushd and Scot."
One of the things that the documentary explains is the role of poetry in the royal courts. I wish I could read Arabic already. I have long wanted to read Arab poetry in the original language. Poetry is one of the most difficult types of text to translate. I want to read Arab poetry one day in Arabic.
Well, dear Sam, I am not on holiday yet, so I shall stop here.
I hope the heat wave will not affect your health.
I will re-read your posts.
I will probably watch the documentaries again too,
Take care. Talk to you soon.
Indie
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Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 07/16/10 15:48
A: .
Friday, July 16th 2010
Hi Sam.
The same company that did Rise & Fall is in production for a new film.
See detail at this link :
http://gardnerfilms.com/productions
I need to take on a summer contract this year and will have less free time than I thought. I was so looking forward to unwinding...
Say a prayer for me that my contracts for the fall will come through.
God bless.
Indie
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Name:sam •
Date: 07/18/10 15:35
A: Dear Indie,
My prayer is coming from the heart, and it start fist with “GOD BLESS YOU” , These three words when coming from the heart are the best prayer, and I do not think that there are anything equal to them, because if a person got everything in this world and did not get God blessing HE/SHE will be a looser at the end. After that I wish you all the success in your life, and that all your dreams became real and blessed.
Sam.
Name:sam •
Date: 07/21/10 1:00
A: Hi Indie,
{Abu al-Qasim Khalaf ibn al-Abbas Al-Zahrawi (936–1013).}
"The street in Córdoba where he lived is named in his honor as "Calle Albucasis". On this street he lived in house no. 6, which is preserved today by the Spanish Tourist Board with a bronze plaque (awarded in January 1977) which reads: "This was the house where lived Abul-Qasim."
Please read about him and the many other great Muslim scientists in Spain, and the other part of the Muslim world, in Baghdad, Damascus, Cairo, etc.
[""Arab Muslims now studied astronomy, alchemy, medicine and mathematics with such success that, during the ninth and tenth centuries, more scientific discoveries had been achieved in the Abbasid empire than in any previous period of history."
—Karen Armstrong.]
["The Islamic Golden Age was inaugurated by the middle of the 8th century by the ascension of the Abbasid Caliphate and the transfer of the capital from Damascus to Baghdad.[7] The Abbassids were influenced by the Qur'anic injunctions and hadith such as "the ink of a scholar is more holy than the blood of a martyr" stressing the value of knowledge.[7] During this period the Muslim world became the unrivaled intellectual center for science, philosophy, medicine and education as the Abbasids championed the cause of knowledge and established THE HOUSE OF WISDOM IN BAGHDAD; where both Muslim and non-Muslim scholars sought to translate and gather all the world's knowledge into Arabic...."]
--- THE HOUSE OF WISDOM IN BAGHDAD.
--- SCHOOL OF TRANSLATION, SOUTH OF SPAIN.
THESE TWO ARE JUST A SMALL PART , AND THERE ARE MANY SCHOOLS ALL OVER THE MUSLIM WORLD, AND ALL THAT CAME BECAUSE OF THE RELIGION OF ISLAM WHICH ASK PEOPLE TO AQUIRE KNOWLEDGE AND TO SEARCH FOR THE TRUTH.
Quran 29:20 O MUHAMMAD, SAY TO THEM , “GO TRAVEL THROUGH THE EARTH AND OBSERVE HOW THE CREATION BEGAN."
So, when we try to find the truth we should not limit our search and look for a one single area [Spain] when the picture is much wider, or take few people [Ibn Rushd, Michael Scott] and think that they are the only one, forgetting those many who came before them and did a great work.
As for Ibn Rushd, if you look at his full name then you will know that he is not a Berber but an Arab. {Abū 'l-Walīd Muḥammad ibn Aḥmad ibn Rushd } , and the following is the proof:
"If like Ibn Khaldoun [Abū Zayd ‘Abdu r-Raḥman bin Muḥammad bin Khaldūn Al-Hadrami , "Hadramout is in Arabia"], an Arabic historian, wrote ,
IF Tariq ibn Ziyad was a berber so his initial family'name could not be Tariq Ibn Ziyad ; Indeed this name is Arabic which means Tariq son of Ziyad. In Berber today the name is known as Ouziad or Ouziyad"
I did find a good source of information in youtube:
PBS islam: empire of faith.
three parts video...part two talk about the golden age in the east [Bagdad]
God bless you.
Name:sam •
Date: 08/09/10 15:17
A: Hello Indie,
First, I hope that you are having a great summer time, and that your work is going well as you wished.
From the cople of videos [about islam in Spain] which you advice me to watch, I came into many others , and they are very interesting.
One of them is really a very unique story, and it is about a catholic priest, and protestant preacher, and his father a minister, all entering Islam at the same time and in one house. I think you should watch their story on videos.
Yusuf Estes [Skip Estes] embrace Islam in mid Jul. 1991 at his home in Texas. The full story can be found on:
why yusuf estes embrace islam ? 1-5
There are many video on his work since then, and he explains the holy books [the Bible , the gospels and the Quran, beside others beliefs , like Budhism and Hiduism etc.] in a very logical and scientifical way, and in a way I did not come to know before.
Hope to hear from you.
God bless you.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 08/11/10 17:36
A: .
Wednesday, August 11th, 2010
Hello Dear Sam.
Thank you for your well wishes.
Thank you also for the suggestion to watch the videos on the preacher from Texas who embraced Islam in the early 1990s.
What a fascinating character to watch and listen to.
What starts out as a bit of a spectacle of a man who is somewhat flamboyant and strange, as I progress through the 5 videos, it becomes apparent that he also has been on a quest of sorts to understand Christology, theology. He recounts his path from Christianity to Islam and presents the Socratic reasoning behind the deconstruction of the theology of the Trinity and his adoption of the more logical concept of diety as One God, represented by a series of Prophets.
That Islam presents a less 'Greek' Christological theology, is a given.
That Islam presents a more easy-to-understand concept of God, is a given. I will not dispute that. Even Jewish 'theology' is not as 'strange as is Roman Catholic Christological Theology. If someone came along and announced they were handing out prized for the weirdest Christo-Theological construct, the Roman Church wins, hands down.
When I was in Grade-3, in Montreal, and the nun told me that there were three Gods in one, at the age of 8 I looked at her and throught to myself "this lady is really strange".
If you ask me if I think Rome has backed itself into the biggest Christological corner in the history of the universe, I will answer yes.
Rome has locked itself in so tight that it seem impossible for it to ever be able to be relevant to modern human beings ever again.
Heck, If the world of Islam wants Roman Catholic Christology to hurry up and go the way of the dinosaurs, all it has to do is slap on every TV channel possible, a panel discussion of Roman theologian trying to explain Christological theology and within 6 years, it'll be a done deal : every Christian on the planet will be running for the theological hills.
Should one iota of history be erased?
Should one person be told to stop being Christian? No.
My interest in validating Islamic Spain in the early Middle Ages, the so-called 'Dark Ages', is not to promote Islam in and of itself.
My interest in validating Islamic Spain in the early Middle Ages, is to promote a real picture of actual history.
That magical time in our human history when Muslims, Jews and Christians in Spain came together in translation schools to share knowledge and build pleasant cities of light, that is what fascinates me.
In the video you told me about (the Texan Pastor, his father the preacher and their friend, a Catholic priest), what fascinates me is this :
it allows us to see the simple Muslim man of faith outside of the whole culture of 'modern terrorism'. As we watch this Texan man, who is on his own special journey of spiritual growth, we know he is talking to everyday, simple people of fath.
In that sense, I find this 5-part video series refreshing. It also allows Christians to perhaps sit back and wonder about how Muslims view our beliefs.
The video shows the Muslim proselytization elements that got Mr. Estes to wonder about the Trinity and the fastastic (unbelievable) aspect Roman Theology. The video also necessarily brings the Christian to understand how strange it is for the Muslim mind to consider the concept of Catholic trinity, or how strange it is for the Muslim mind to consider the concept of the divinity of Jesus.
Anything that helps two different people understand what their belief differences truly are is a step forward as far as I am concerned.
I am sooooooo tired of the same, repetitive things that Westerners say about Arabs or Muslims.
I am also soooooo tires of the same, repetitive things that some Arabs and Muslims say about Westerners.
Mr. Estes is a dynamic, and he is what we could call a bigger-than-life character. Nevertheless, underneath his flamboyant personality, it is still possible to see that he is in a search for spiritual truth.
Observing such personalities can be informative, fascinating, entertaining, but also show that underneath our outter selves (the self we present to the world), is an inner core of human being that searches for meaning.
In my next post, I shall share with you my thoughts on a 6-part video presentation on Humanism.
Again, Sam, thank you for shaing and exchanging with me.
News about my work : I did get a summer contract. But for September, I am still waiting. Being out of work is not easy to face. Please keep me in your prayers.
Have a good remaining month of August.
Indie
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Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 08/12/10 16:43
A: .
Thursday August 12th, 2010
Hello again, Sam.
First, I would like to say that I just realized last evening that Ramadan has begun. The first time I stayed in the Arab section of Jerusalem, Ramadan was beginning. I ran out of my hotel room at the sound of the early morning canon blast, convinced war had broken out. The clerk at the desk assured me that it was just Jerusalem's way of 'ringing in' Ramadan. I went back to my room thinking that Church bells, I would have understood; but, Mosques do not have bells. :) Oh well.
In any case, if you are fasting I hope all goes well. I can get by without food if I have to, but water? Man! Not drinking water from sunrise to sundown must be difficult, particulary when days are longer than nights...
A silly thought : Muslims living in the Arctic Circle when Ramadan fall in December, have about five minutes of daylight. I wonder if they 'get away with' not doing Ramadan in the tradition sense of the fast. ...Just a silly thought that occured to me because members of my family live in the far north of Canada...
Anyway, I do want to wish you a happy, healthy and peaceful Ramadan in August 2010.
NOW, to my entry of today.
Today, I share with you the web links on videos (6) of a few minutes each, which present essential information about the philosophy of Humanism.
Introduction to Humanism
Part 1 : Definition
http://www.youtube.com-/watch?v=96K7v1f9EJk&NR=1
Par-t- 2 : History
http://www.youtube.com/watch-?v=CuAjy6tiqR8&feature=related
Par-t- 3 : Relation to Religion
http://www.youtube.com/watch-?v=ldDvl4BQb_8&feature=related
Part- 4 : Central Values
http://www.youtube.com/wa-tch?v=_eYmbhgvN9g&feature=related-
Concerned with human welfare.
Part 5 : Famous Humanists
http://www.youtube.com/-watch?v=niig5zd1xqo&feature=relate-d-
Part 6 : Frequently Asked Questions
http://www.youtube.com/-watch?v=4GlY-HpPHio&feature=relate-d-
a) Do you have to be an atheist to be a Humanist? No.
b) Is there or isn't there a God? Not relevant to the goals of Humanism. But, maybe there is a God, maybe there isn't.
c) If God exists but does not share values of Humanists, then what?
d) Where does morality come from?
e) How do humanist feel about the ten Commandments
f) Does Humanism replace God with Man?
g) What is the Humanist stance on the Supernatural?
h) Why does the world need another «…ism…»? Doesn't divide, like all other «…ism…»
i) Is Humanism species-ist?
j) What about evolution?
k) Are Humans superior to other species?
Talk to you again soon.
Take care, my Friend.
Indie
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Name:sam •
Date: 08/12/10 16:57
A: God bless you dear Indie Anna.
Every time you , or any person I know, brother or sister or freind come to my mind I do ask God for His blessing for them, and I do pray for them, as I do for my son and his family many times every day.
Thank you for your answer.
In one of the vedio of Yusuf Estes, there is a very important point which he repeat several times, and it is "that people should have a belief, no matter what their believe is", and he does explain it well.
Another interesting vedio to watch, is Cat Stevens [Yusuf Islam].
Here what I read about him in 'wikipedia'
Yusuf Islam (born Steven Demetre Georgiou; 21 July 1948 in London, England),[2] commonly known by his former stage name Cat Stevens, is a British musician. He is a singer-songwriter, multi-instrumentalist, educator, philanthropist, and prominent convert to Islam.[3]
His early 1970s record albums Tea for the Tillerman and Teaser and the Firecat were both certified as Triple Platinum by the RIAA in the United States; his 1972 album Catch Bull at Four sold half a million copies in the first two weeks of release alone and was Billboard's number-one LP for three consecutive weeks. He has also earned two ASCAP songwriting awards in consecutive years for "The First Cut Is the Deepest", which has been a hit single for four different artists.
Stevens converted to Islam at the height of his fame, in December 1977,[4] and adopted his Muslim name, Yusuf Islam, the following year. In 1979, he auctioned all his guitars away for charity[5] and left his music career to devote himself to educational and philanthropic causes in the Muslim community. He has been given several awards for his work in promoting peace in the world, including 2003's World Award, the 2004 Man for Peace Award, and the 2007 Mediterranean Prize for Peace. In 2006, .........
God bless you.
Name:sam •
Date: 08/12/10 21:31
A: Dear Indie,
You said:
"That magical time in our human history when Muslims, Jews and Christians in Spain came together in translation schools to share knowledge and build pleasant cities of light, that is what fascinates me."
THAT MAGICAL TIME IN OUR HUMAN HISTORY. That is true, but the question is "who brought this magical change?
- is it the Europeans, the Easterners, the Arabs, the persians, the Indians, or the Chinese?.
- is it the Christians, the Jews, or the Muslims ?.
My answer is, None of those I mentioned above had anything to do with bringing people to work together for the benefit of all the people for better life.
Going back to the history of the world before Islam, you will find that every nation depress the others , and to slave , and to do all atrocity toward the ones who do not submits compltely to them, but we find the Muslims the only one who never slave the people or comet atrocities, and they gave the other who fought them to the freedom to worship, and to work together in all fields.
And question here is, 'what makes the Muslims to follow this path, and not to be like the Christians, or Jews or Hindus or all the others who came before them ?, then just remember the Arabs before Islam.
The only answer to that , that those people [Arabs, Persians, Norh African, Berbers etc.] been taught to do things in the right way.
Indie, I think you know that TEACHING [that is we call books] is the only thing that has an effect on people.
Many examples are in front of us. The teaching of Buddha, Moses, Jesus, Darwin and the many others, all had many followers, and none of their teachings brought in their books laws that cover CLEARLY the relations between peopple, nations, and the right and the wrong, and even between the parent and children, in detail as the Quran.
Islam , and THE TEACHING which came in the book [the Quran] , was the only thing that makes all the changes to THE HUMAN HISTORY, and I do not think it is right to deny this fact.
Let us look at some examples:
Q- 49:13 O mankind, indeed WE have created you from male and female and MADE YOU PEOPLES AND TRIBES THAT YOU MAY KNOW ONE ONOTHER.
INDEED, THE MOST NOBLE {NOBLE} OF YOU IN THE SIGHT OF ALLAH [GOD] IS THE MOST RIGHTEOUS OF YOU.........
Q- 17:23/24 And your LORD has decreed that you not worship except HIM, [The first commandment in the Bible, tell us the same if anyone remember !!!], AND TO PARENTS, GOOD TREATMENT. WHETHER ONE OR BOTH OF THEM REACH OLD AGE [WHILE] WITH YOU, SAY NOT TO THEM [SO MUCH AS], "UFF", AND DO NOT REPEL THEM BUT SPEAK TO THEM A NOBLE WORD.
AND LOWER TO THEM THE WING OF HUMILITY OUT OF MERCY AND SAY, "MY LORD, HAVE MERCY UPON THEM AS THEY BROUGHT ME UP [WHEN I WAS] SMALL."
Q- 16:125 Invite to the way of your LORD with WISDOM and GOOD INSTRUCTION, and argue with them in a a way THAT IS BEST.
Indeed, your LORD is most knowing of who has strayed from HIS way, and HE is most knowing of who is guided.
Islam religion go side by side with the teaching of Moses, and Jesus, the name ALLAH is what Abraham, Moses, and Jesus use in Aramaic, but the funny thing that the Jews and the Christians say that ALLAH is not God, I heard it and I read it thousand times!!!.
They try to do their best to deny Islam even if the y had to make lies !!!
Jesus said:
J-5:30 I CAN DO NOTHING ON MY OWN INITIATIVE......BECAUSE I DO NOT SEEK MY OWN WILL, BUT THE WILL OF HIM WHO SENT ME.
17:3 This is eternal life, THAT THEY MAY KNOW YOU, THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST WHOM YOU HAVE SENT.
I see everything is very clear here, but I cannot understand how people can say that Jesus is God !, or a part of three that all make him a God !, is that make Jesus not telling the truth !,, and when they mention that Jesus was lifted up and sut on the right hand of God,[the Muslim believe that Jesus is with God], is that by itself shows that Jesus is not God, because if Jesus is God He will be sitting on the throne and not on the side of God. I cannot believe how people create things and change the truth , and for what!?, I think all that done for the benefits of the churches and those who run them, that is all.
Romans-3:8 ...."LET US DO EVIL THAT GOOD MAY COME"....
Did Paul teaching is a major in the gospels?, and did his teaching is what the chuch take as the true teaching which explain Jesus, while he neve met or spoke with Jesus.
God bless you.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 08/13/10 19:43
A: .
Friday August 13th, 2010
Dear Sam.
I did not know what Yusuf Islam (formerly, London born singer-song-writer Cat Stevens) has been doing with his life since his conversion to Islam. That many of the well known Westerners who have embraced Islam are known to thoughtful, intelligent people, boxer Mohammed Ali, to name another, is a testament to the reality of an experience both spiritual and profound.
My own spiritual journey is tainted by knowledgeable elders in my own family.
My own spiritual journey is tainted by my studies in history, text analysis, archaeology.
Everything I know confirms to me that Jew, Christian and Muslim, all three, learner wisdom, passed on wisdom that has its roots in the same geographical area covered between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers in the east, the Nile River in the west, Lebanon in the north, and Arabia in the south.
That is what the archaeology says!
That is what stone tablets in Iraq, carved in minus 1850 say.
That is what archaeological digs in Palestine and Egypt say.
That is what is carved in stone in Jordan, in Petra, an ancient city situated smack on the trade route south into the Arabian Peninsula indicates.
Tradition even says that Moses was denied access into Petra (South East of the Dead Sea), and he turne north at that point and went on up into the mountains at the north east tip of the Dead Sea, and "saw the Promised Land" from the summit of Moab.
Thirty years ago, before the tourist industry took over the east side of the Sinai Peninsula,
when the only foreigner was a Bible toting Westerner on a toor bus,
when the villages still looked like they might have hundreds of years ago,
I was lucky enough to walk the footsteps of Moses.
You cannot write words that imply that compassion and mercy and forgiveness was invented and spread in the year 700 CE (AD) by the changse wrought by the advent of Islam in the Arabian Peninsula in 630 !
You just can't.
The first story read to me as a child by a teacher told of a policeman catching a man who had stollen silver candle sticks from a priest; in the story, the policeman brings the thief to the priest; the policeman declares to the priest : "Here is your candle stick thief!".
The priest looks at the thief and something in him makes him know that
this thief needs a gift of money and the gift of a chance at a new life.
The Jewish Scriptures teaches about forgiving debt every seven years.
You simply cannot purport that Mohammed was the first to apply the principles of compassion, mercy, and forgiveness!
Did something new evolve in the Arabian Peninsula in the 600s? Yes.
Was there a blending together of tribal groups because of Mohammed? Yes.
Did he institute such new social laws such as caring for the widow and the orphan? Did he codify behaviours of compassion and mercy and generosity that had been extended to him as an orphan-child. Yes.
Was the western-moving culture of tribal unification an amazing phenonmenon and did it come at a time when the Roman Empire was a distant memory? Yes.
But the very work done by the translators in Andalousie, along with bringing back Socratic thought of ancient Greek, reveals a culture that prizes the wisdom of the past. Forgiving debts, loving a neighbour as oneself, caring for a Samaritan left beaten on a roaside, Sam, those teachings do not originate with a man who lived in CE 600.
To not want to study the conditions of inter-tribal relations in the late 500s and early 600s in Arabia, to not want to understand ALL of the factors that contribute to some behaviours of Muslims Generals in the 7th and 8th centuries, is a narrowness and a rigidity that is just not reflective of reality.
My own Native (aboriginal) Canadian roots mean I can tell of a culture of compassion and generosity not unlike that shown to Jean ValJean in Victor Hugo's book, Les Misérables, the first book ever read to me as a child.
Is the West still in a state of total denial about some major historical facts?
Absolutely.
But, we ALL (all 3 of the big monotheistic religions) need to take a step back and be willing to re-write and re-interpret.
...I will end by saying that I still have not found work for the fall.
This is a difficult time for me.
Thank you for keeping me in your prayers.
Please continue to do so.
Last night, I watched again the movie I once spoke of to you, entitled "Skirt Day". The French-Algerian actress, Isabelle Adjani does such a good job in playing her role. I hope you can see it sometime.
Also, in Kingdom Of Heaven, a movie by Ridley Scott, I hope you can see some day the special features in the "Four-disk, Editor's Cut edition of the movie Kingdom Of Heaven. Parts of the movie were filmed in the south of Spain. Beautiful scenes.
Peace to you and yours at this time of Ramadan, Sam.
Indie
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Name:sam •
Date: 08/14/10 23:17
A: Hello Indie,
You said: "The Jewish Scriptures teaches about forgiving debt every seven years."
A BIG DEAL!!!!!
If a Jew give you a loan with 20 to 25 % interest or more , that means he can double or trible his money in seven years. But you as borower who really needed help, you suffer too much during those seven years by paying all that huge interest, and you will see at the end that you became broke, and you might loose your buisiness or home. Can you see what happen in in the U.S. and other countries, millions lost their home and their jobs because of the system which been run mostly by the Jews OR THE LIKE. LOOK AT BANKS AND ITS CEO's NAMES, AND HOW MUCH THEY MAKE PROFITS. IT IS ALL A BIG GAME FOR THEM [THE FEW] AND MILLION HAD TO SUFFER !!!!.
Indie , you like, and you accept what came in the Jewish/christian Scipture, BUT JESUS DID NOT:
Mat. -21:12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and OVERTHREW THE TABLES OF THE MONEY CHANGERS.....
Nobody LISTEN to Jesus, and the christians and the Jews still doing the same buiseness, So God sent a clear message to save the people from that kind of wrong buisiness:
Q- 2:275 Those who consume INTEREST cannot stand [on the day of Resurrection] except as one stands who is being beaten by Satan into insanity. That because they say, “TRADE IS [JUST] LIKE INTEREST.” BUT ALLAH [GOD] HAS PERMITTED TRADE AND HAS FORBIDDEN INTEREST....
Also the Jewish Scriptures teaches this: Read Joshua from 10 ...
Joshua - 10:40 So Joshua overcame all the land, the hill-country and the South and the lowland and the mountain slopes, and all their kings; ALL WERE PUT TO DEATH: and EVERY LIVING THING he gave up to the curse, as the Lord, the God of Israel, had given him orders.
GOD GAVE HIS ORDER TO KILL PEOPLE..&..EVRY LIVING THING !!!!
DID GOD GIVE HIS COMMANDMENTS TO MOSES....YOU SHALL NOT COMIT MURDER ???.
Also the Bible brought a story about two sister in EZEKIEL 23: 1TO 9 , and it is not suitable to be read to one own family , and I don't like to send it to you, because it is a kind of clear PONOGRAPHY.
Those who wrote them and who put them in the book have no respect for God, and you can check it out and give your opinion, as if such words are from God or from those who wrote them.
God bless you.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 08/15/10 3:50
A: .
Saturday August 14, 2010
23h
Good evening Sam.
Thank your for quoting the Quran. I do not know much about the content of the Quran. You quote it as one who has read it and as one who loves the book.
Dear Sam : the tragedy of greed in the housing market has been a hard-learned lesson for many. As our world's markets grow ever more inter-connected, we, the common woman and common man must re-double our effort to hold accountable those who misuse the money system for greedy purposes.
Are there many Jews involved in finance and money-lending?
In the late 1590s, William Shakespear, in England, wrote his famous play, The Merchant Of Venice. In it, one of the characters of the story is the character of the Jewish money-lender, Shylock. The Old Testament, it would seem, allowed the charging of interest when 'foreigners' borrowed money.
It would seem that this allowance was made by God, so that travellers could borrow money when they were in a fix; the interest was God's way of protecting the money-lender from losing everything, since many foreigners took off for parts unknown, never to be seen again.
By the late 1500s, the first banking system, formed by a triangle of three Italian cities, was well on its way. But, it was back in the late 1100s and early 1200s that the banking system took a leap forward, thanks to Arab numerals, apparently. An Italian book-keeper, by the name of Bonacci, hopped in a boat and crosse the Mediterranean to go work in Algeria. There, his young son, Fi-Bonacci, came up with the bright idea of using Arab numerals in book-keeping, instead of Roman numerals.
The "new math" developped by Fibonacci produced the basis for modern accounting. Within 100 years, the first inter-city banks were born. Run by Italians. Catholic, Italians. In fact, the old Jewish money-lenders, who sat on their benches (banka) went out of business.
It was later, and because Jews were excluded from all other forums, that they gavitated to commerce and became masters at it.
Fibonacci was not Jewish. The Medicci Family, a Roman family, founded the first "inter-city" lending banks. They put the little Jewish money lenders out of business.
The term, loanshark, came to be in Scotland. It was a Protestant Minister, who felt that widows and orphans needed insurance in case of the death of the family's bread-winner, who began the insurance business.
No Jews.
Is there need for a reforming and an accounting for misuse of public moneys? Yes.
Is there a need for a reforming and an accounting for misuse of the savings of private citizens? Yes.
Even Mohammed instituted new social conventions to protect the widow and the orphan. He had been an orphan.
Sam : it is Ramadan. I humbly ask you to not upset yourself and me with tales of misuse of money by one group of people. Are multi-national companies messing with market systems and risking the welfare of entire
Continents. The push to hold accountable those who are dishonest is the responsibility of us all. Jew, Christian, Muslim, Humanist.
Our local summertime activities organizers held festivities today and we spent the evening watching an Algerian fashion show. I saw the tradition dress of Algerian women from all corners of Algeria.
In another tent, there was dancing.
I shall check back on the site here in a few days, as relatives will be here for a visit.
God bless.
Indie
P.S. The Internet video that helped me understand the start of the banking system is Part-1 of "The Ascent Of Money". You can Google it. Very simple explanations for very complexe historical events.
.
Name:sam •
Date: 08/15/10 17:23
A: Hello Dear Indie,
I wish you and your relatives all the best, have a great time with them.
Thank you for your post which brought some information about the interest and the banking in Europe, and your opinion about them.
{I will give my opinion about this subject next}
1- You said, "I do not know much about the content of the Quran".
I say that, also your knowledge about Islam is the same, and that is the case for nearly all the Christians and Jews, WHY?.
Because, for the last 1400 years the people who control the churches and the synagoges telling their people that the Quran is the works of devil
[Jimmy Swaggert and many others preach that !!!],
and the Muslims worship Muhammad or a black stone in Mecca etc., and all that are lies, lies , I think people before accepting anything blindly , the should find the truth by themselves, because everyone is responsible. Those who tell you that if you believe in Jesus is God are saved they are lying, because that is by itself against the commandment of God, and makes God unjust. Jesus will not recieve a killer etc., to be on his side in heaven, no matter what the church people promiss, and God makes the rules not the preists.
The Quran tells people that every person is responsible for his/her doing.
Q- 99:7/8 So whoever does an ATOM'S WEIGHT OF GOOD WILL SEE IT, and whoever does an ATOM'S WEIGHT OF EVIL WILL SEE IT.
Q-10:44 Indeed, Allah [God] does not wrong the people at all, but IT IS THE PEOPLE WHO ARE WRONGING THEMSELVES.
Q- 21:47 And WE [God -telling] place THE SCALES OF JUSTICE for the DAY OF RESURRECTION, SO NO SOUL WILL BE TREATED UNJUSTLY AT ALL. And if there is [even] the weight of a mustard seed, WE will bring it forth......
Q- 6:132 And for all are DEGREES [i.e.,position resulting] from what they have done. And your lord is not unaware of what they do.
{that is the FAIR JUDGEMENT, God in Islam is a fair judge to HIS people, ALL PEOPLE }
The fact. MUSLIMS WORSHIP ONE GOD, ALLAH *[GOD], AND BELIEVE IN ALL THE PROPHETS AND THEIR MESSAGES**, AND MUHAMMAD IS A PROPHET AND THE LAST***.
* Abraham and Jesus use the word Allah, which is an Aramaic word .[THE WORD GOD or any other names created after are not known at that time, check that and let me know if I am wrong]
** The messages of Abraham is about one God, the message of Moses is one God [read the first and the second commandments], and the message in Jesus teaches the same , ONE GOD -- [I wrote about them many times in my previous posts.---THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD....THE ONE AND ONLY GOD....I CAN DO NOTHING ON MY OWN INITIATIVE.... etc..
AND HIS LATE FOLLOWERS DO NOT BELIEVE HIM BUT THEY BELIEVE IN PAUL AND THE ROMANS WORDS !!!!
*** Jesus mention that He is sending another, who will tell you the truth, and will guide you,, and he will glorify me. [J- 16:5-14]. You tell me if any othe than Muhammad who came with a message that tells the truth about Jesus and glorify Him. [Read the Quran "CHAPTER MARYAM(MARY) Q- 19:1-98 , also Jesus been mentioned in many other chapters, and the total are 33 times.
You said, " You quote it as one who has read it and as one who loves the book."
Jesus said: Mat- 22:37 YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND." {Jesus said LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD, and He never said LOVE ME as your Lord.}.
You remember ? , Luke 18:19, "WHY DO YOU CALL ME GOOD? NO ONE IS GOOD EXCEPT GOD ALONE." {Jesus is not God, and this is a solid proof}.
I do belive that the commandment, and the words of Jesus and the words that came in the Quran [NOT THE WORDS OF MUHAMMAD, If you know what Islam is then you eill know this fact] are the words of God. And they are from God , and I love them all, BUT MY LOVE TO MY CREATOR IS ABOVE THEM ALL.
God bless you and yours.
Sam.
Name:sam •
Date: 08/16/10 2:07
A: Dear Indie,
I know you are busy now, you can read & answer my post when you are having free time.
- The subject in my post is 'BANK'.
You mention , "By the late 1500s, the first banking system....", and my question is that true?
So, let us see what is 'BANK'.
From the Oxford dictionary: Bank is an " establishment where money is deposited in account, lent, etc.,storage place..."
From that definition, I can say that the bank and banking system are found at the time of Muhammad , and that came for the need to store the money and other material which came from "AL-ZAKAT*" which is the Muslim has to pay as a percentage from their income [like the tax system today], and the call the place/places "BEIT MAL AL-MUSLIMIN**" and from there it goes to serve the people and their needs.
* There are 32 verses in the subject of ZAKAT, here some:
Q-24:37 [Are] men whom neither commerce nor sale distracts from the rememberance of Allah [God] and performance of prayer and giving of ZAKAT.
Q-9:60 ZAKAT expenditure are only for the poor and for the needy and for those employed to collect [zakat] and for bringing hearts together [for Islam] and for freeing captives [or slaves] and for those in debt and for the cause of Allah and for the stranded traveler - an obligation [imposed] by Allah. And Allah is knowing and wise.
Q- 2:276 Allah destroy interest and gives increase for charities.
Zakat, is a law from God , as the prayer.
Charity, is a personal choice, its only a GOOD DEED *, if a person gave it in a good will, God will bless him, and that will have an account for it the time of judgment.
* Q- 6:160 Whoever comes [on the day of judgment] with a GOOD DEED will have ten times the like thereof, and whoever comes with an evil deed will not be recompensed except the like thereof; and will not be wronged.
** BEIT MAL AL-MUSLIMIN - , In Arabic , let me explain what that mean.
BEIT .... is a house "building", Bank is a house "buiding.
MAL ..... is the money and all sort of valuables things. Same as the bank holdings.
AL-MUSLEMIN....The muslims.
This place hold all what came from the Muslims in the type of ZAKAT.
In verse Q- 9:60 about ZAKAT, gives the Muslims the 'how' to deal with the money and other income which been put in that house. I THINK THAT IS THE FIRST MONETARY LAWS in the history of mankind.
You might not agree with me as usual and bring the Chinese or the Indians and others to the table as most Christians and Jews do, and that is alright with me, and I will listen to you because you might know something I know nothing about.
From what I know, that the taxes been collected long time ago, long before Islam and after in non Muslim countries, and the taxes been collected and given to the rulers [Emperor, king, lord, governor, and churches], and there was no law for how to use the taxes, and that put the money in the hand of the rulers and the few who surround them.
There are many examples, let us look for few at list:
The Emperors and The kings and the rulers, of Japan, China, India, the Romans , the Greeks , the Persians, and in England , and in Spain etc., collected taxes from people, even by force to be used for their own pleasurs, and their protection, palaces, castles etc., while most of their people lived in extreme poverty.
When someone mentioned to the queen of France that her people has no bread to eat, her answer was " they can eat biscuit" or "let them eat biscuit" [I heard this story ], and that is not long ago. I DON'T THINK THERE WERE ANY BANKS IN FRANCE, OR ENGLAN, OR ANY BANKS FOR THE CHURCHES AT THAT TIME TO PUT THE COLLECTED TAXES.
TODAY we know that every country in the world has a CENTRAL BANK [it has different names according to its country] and that is where the government depost their income from taxes., and from which they use to do all what is needed for the people.
BEFORE 1400 YEARS, There was BEIT MAL AL-MUSLIMINE , it is name in Arabic, but it is functions are very close to the central banks of today.
My last point is: The Muslims in their vast land area, from Spain in the west to the borders of China in the east were prospering in all way of life [the golden age], and they gave much to the others who were far behind [the dark age], and that lasted for hundreds of years. THERE WAS NO TAXES IN THOSE YEARS, BECAUSE IT WAS FORBIDDEN.
IN the time of the Khalifa Omar, The Emperor of Persia sent a group to deliver a letter to Omar asking him to surrender to their emperor or suffer defeat, and when the group arrive to Mecca, they ask for the palace of Omar, but they took them to a simple house, and there Omar having nap on the groud in the shade of a tree, they were surprised, and they asked Omar, "you are not afraid....", and he answered them, "we ruled in justice, and we got peace". After short time Omar took Persia.
And when a freind asked Omar, "you are the khalifat and you wear simple dress while BEIT MAI AL- MUSLIMIN at your hand", Omar answered him saying, "Beit mal al-Muslimin does not belong to me and I am taking my wages only."
God bless you.
Name:sam •
Date: 08/21/10 14:34
A: Good morning Inie,
I would like to correct this world in my last post.
I wrote "TAXES" instead of "INTEREST"
"THERE WAS NO ....TAXES {should be INTEREST} ...IN THOSE YEARS, BECAUSE IT WAS FORBIDDEN."
Have a wonderful weekend.
God bless you.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 08/21/10 18:42
A: .
Saturday August 21st, 2010
Hello Sam.
My time with my family members was joyful, especially since I had not seen them in a long time.
I am still without work. I do not like the idea of being on unemployment insurance, but am grateful that I can collect it when I really need it.
Thank you for the explanation about Beit Mal Al-Musleim. From my studies in history and theology in the 80s, I remember very little of the 12 hours or so of classes on Islam; but I did remember that Muhammed had been orphaned as a child and that social justice was important to him. I remembered my professor explaining that he had provided for widows and orphans. With your explanations, I understand a little more.
The paying of a kind of interest so that the less fortunate may be helped is a very progressive custom for the time and contrasts greatly with images of women in burkas, some who are doctors, needing to beg on the street corner. If Muhammed came back today and saw a woman begging on the street, because her husband has been killed, because she is denied work, I think his anger would be great; I think his cry of anger would be heard at a great distance, so great would be his anger.
Since I am not working, I have had time to try to understand more about the history of Islam. I found three (3) quality documentaries on the Internet. They are done by the same production company that did "The Rise And Fall Of Islamic Spain". One of the staff members of this film company has a degree in literature and theology. The persons interviewed in the 3 documentaries are all university professors or researchers.
The 3-part series is entitled
Islam : Empire of Faith.
- the 3 parts are :
a) Part 1 : Prophet Muhammed and Rise of Islam (56 minutes)
b) Part 2 : The Awakening (56 minutes)
c) Part 3 : The Ottomans (56 minutes)
I have now watched each part twice, over a three-day period.
Perhaps you have seen these wonderful documantaries.
Something funny happened after I spent three days watching these three videos on the Internet :
- for three days, I did not turn on the TV;
- for three days, I watched these 3 documentaries and felt as if I was once again in Jordan, in the north of Israel, in the Sinai Peninsula; I was remembering the jokes of my Palestinian bus driver; I was remembering eating 70 olives for breakfast one morning; I was remembering drinking tea in the desert and listening to my Palestinian driver and guide talk about the Olympics.
For three days, I was in a kind of far away voyage in spirit.
And then I turned on the TV.
The first report I heard was a controversy in the US, as many argue still about President Obamas religion, whether he is Christian or Muslim.
After spending three days in a kind of wonderful dream and a voyage back in time to the 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 14th and 15th centuries, hearing and seeing that report on TV brought me back to a strange reality.
I burst out laughing at first. Then, I just shook my head.
The second report, after the one about the religion of the US President, was about the controversy surrounding the plan to build a Mosque in New York City, a five minute walk from the site of the former trade centers.
I don't know how that story will end. If I was a genie and I was let out of my oil lamp, I would make the whole world do three days of fasting, along with the Muslims, then make everyone go to a celebration at the end of Ramadan at the home of a Muslim family.
But, I am not a genie. I am just out or work and have too much time on my hands to say silly things.
If I was a genie, I would make all the people living in countries with names ending with the letters "...stan" watch the 3 documantaries I mention above.
If I was a genie, I would make every TV on the whole planet air the Ridley Scott movie, Kingdom Of Heaven, not the version seen in cinemas, but the longer version, the Director's Cut.
If I was a genie, I would create more TV network that air history programs.
If I was a genie, I would create exchange programs for young people, to allow the development of a more realistic understanding of our respective histories, and a more realistic understanding of how history is written.
Part 1 of "Islam, Empire of Faith"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?-v=yX3UHNhQ1Zk&feature=related
Part- 2 of "Islam, Empire of Faith"
http://www.youtube.com/watc-h?v=X1PxJomypQE&feature=fvw
Part- 3 of "Islam, Empire of Faith"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iI7Qkcyz3tM&feature=related
Talk- to you again, Sam.
Indie
.
Name:sam •
Date: 08/22/10 21:07
A: Dear Indie,,
I am glad to hear from you about the good and joyful time with your family, and I will pray for you to find work very soon.
You said, “From my studies in history and theology in the 80s, I remember very little of the 12 hours or so of classes on Islam....professor explaining.... ”
My questions:
- Was the prof., a Christian, and very knowledgeable in the Bible ?.
- Was he knowledgeable in the teaching of Islam and mainly in the Quran?
- Was the university teaching 99.9% Christianity, and what little of what they teach about Islam is to show that Islam is not a religion [most Christians claim that], and Muhammad came to join together the Arab tribe and does things because he was poor and orphan etc., etc.,?. {that Muhammad had been orphaned as a child and that social justice was important to him.}
Dear Indie, In a previous post you mentioned, “Mr. Estes is a dynamic, and he is what we could call a bigger-than-life character. Nevertheless, underneath his flamboyant personality, it is still possible TO SEE THAT HE IS IN A SEARCH FOR SPIRITUAL TRUTH.”
When I watched the 5 videos I came to the same conclusion, but when I watched the many others from him then my opinion changed.
I learned that he been preaching Islam for the last 17 or more years, and he can read and write and speaks the Arabic language, and understand its grammar better than the majorities of the Arabs, also more than a thousand accepted Islam in front of him [many recorded in video], and what that prove? Is he still searching for the truth?.
In the last few weeks I been going through the youtube, as you do, and I did watch, “Islam : Empire of Faith, the three parts” twice, as I do for most of the videos. These three part is mostly about people, Mohammad and others, the Arabs , the Ottomans and others , and it is a good historical presentation, but it does not bring/show the Islam and its teaching .
NO ONE WILL UNDERSTAND THE REAL ISLAM AND THE QURAN FROM A CHRISTIAN OR A JEW NO MATTER HOW MANY DEGREES THEY RECEIVE FROM STUDYING IN THEIR OWN FAITH, BUT ONLY BY READING THE QURAN AND LISTEN TO THE SCHOLARS OF THAT FAITH.
I find in YOUTUBE that there were many DEBATES between CHRISTIAN SCHOLARS & MUSLIM SCHOLARS, and those debates took place in many countries [United States, Canada, South Africa, England, and others], and in front of thousands of people from both faiths. They are very important and they gave a real picture about both religion [Christianity & Islam]. I think such debates are far better than reading a book of a Muslim or a Christian writer, since you hear from both sides, and the people can then give their own judgment. IT IS LIKE A COURT OF JUSTICE.
While all the debates are interesting to watch, there are one very interesting, because the Muslim scholar is a South African, and the Christian scholar is an Jordanian Arab !!!.
Their two debate where in London, in the famous Albert hall, and in Birmingham north of London and in front of thousands of people. You can watch these videos in:
- is the bible god’s ? Ahmed deedat vs anis sorrosh 1 of 29
- is Jesus god ? Ahmed deedat vs anis sorrosh 1-22
But the surprise for me came in this:
- the end of anis shorrosh !!
{ the news came on NBC channel.}
Also, if you had free time you can watch other debates as:
-is the bible the word of god - deedat vs sjobrg 1-24
{ in Scandinavia.}
- is jesus god ? - ahmed deedat vs eric bock 1-17
{ in Denmark.}
- bible god’s word ? - deedat vs swaggert 1-23
{ in the US, Baton Rouge, University of Louisiana.}
Then after:
-jimmy swaggart caught with prositutes part 2
God bless you.
Name:sam •
Date: 08/22/10 23:59
A: Hi Indie,
Sorry I have to come back very soon, but what I came on is somehow funny, and came by chance, it is:
"watch this you will laugh to death"
The last part of this video I watch it on TV a while ago, and it was a special report on CNN, about hoax used by some to make fortunes, and they spoke with people who are paid to help the Rev. with tricks.
God bless you.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 08/23/10 20:44
A: .
Monday August 23rd, 2010 16h45
Sam, I have a job. I just found out. Soooooo relieved.
Talk to you later. Thank you for your prayers.
Indie
.
Name:sam •
Date: 08/24/10 15:22
A: Dear Indie,
God bless you.
Good morning. I am soooo glad, and sooo happy for you, and I wish you all the best at all time, may God be with you always.
Please keep in touch, since I feel better when I hear from you, even few words.
God bless you.
Sam
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 08/27/10 13:22
A: .
Friday August 27th, 2010
Hi Sam.
Well, I am back at work. :)
Have lost to learn before I can be efficient with my new responsibilities.
My task is bigger this year.
I told my boss that if my learning curve will be respected, then I will become proficient.
I watched the "Empire Of Faith" again last weekend. One of the commentators, the gentleman with a big mustache, teaches about Arab poetry.
Do you remember me telling you I was interested in taking such a course?
If I was a millionaire, if I did not have to earn a living, I would take a sabbatical and go take his course.
I wish to share with you a bit of what I found out about this professor's university courses. See text between the 2 lines like this ====
I will conclude below that.
========Begin======
Michael Anthony Sells is currently the John Henry Barrows Professor of Islamic History and Literature at the Divinity School of the University of Chicago.
Biography:
Born in Butte MT, on May 8, 1949, Michael Sells studies and teaches in the areas of qur'anic studies;
Sufism;
Arabic and Islamic love poetry;
mysticism (Greek, Islamic, Christian, and Jewish);
and religion and violence.
He is currently completing a new and expanded edition of his 1999 book
Approaching the Qur'an: the Early Revelations.
He has published three volumes on Arabic poetry:
- Desert Tracings: Six Classic Arabian Odes; which focuses upon the pre-Islamic period;
- Stations of Desire, which focuses upon the love poetry of Ibn al-`Arabi; and
- The Cambridge History of Arabic Literature, Al-Andalus which he co-edited and to which he contributed.
His books on mysticism include
-Early Islamic Mysticism, translations and commentaries on influential
mystical passages from the Qur'an, hadith, Arabic poetry, and early Sufi writings; and
- Mystical Languages of Unsaying, an examination of apophatic language, with special
attention to Plotinus, John the Scot, Ibn al-`Arabi, Meister Eckhart, and Marguerite Porete.
His work on religion and violence includes:
The Bridge Betrayed: Religion and Genocide in Bosnia; and
The New Crusades: Constructing the Muslim Enemy which he co-edited and to which he contributed.
He teaches courses on the topics of
the Qur'an,
Islamic love poetry,
comparative mystical literature,
Arabic Sufi poetry, and
Ibn al-`Arabi
BOOK BY PROFESSOR SELLS :
Approaching the Qur'an: The Early Revelations
Editorial Reviews
From Library Journal
Despite the rapid growth of Islam in this country, its precepts and scripture remain inaccessible to many readers.
It is difficult, too, that many of its believers assert that the Qur'an cannot be translated.
This groundbreaking work by Haverford College professor Sells goes a very long way to bridging the gap that separates the non-Islamic reader from the Qur'an. He translates and extensively annotates a careful selection of the earliest "suras" (revelations), setting them in their cultural context.
Further chapters discuss sound and gender in the meaning of the Qur'an, and the book includes an hour-long CD of extraordinary field recordings of male and female Qur'anic reciters.
Highly recommended.
Copyright 1999 Reed Business Information, Inc.
Reviews
"Approaching The Qur'An is a fluent and accessible text that flawlessly communicates the religious and literary verities of the Qur'an. The reader-listener cannot help but being carried away by the ecstasy and rhapsody that both the aural and visual 'texts' produce. Both Muslim and non-Muslim audiences, beginners as well as advanced students of Islam will no doubt appreciate the many innovative facets of this extraordinary book. It is an indispensable aid for all students of religion and Islam, with Sells again at his best."
-- Ebrahim Moosa is an associate professor in the Department of Religious Studies at the University of Cape Town
"Approaching The Qur'An is a sensitive and unusually accessible first book on the Qur'an and its function as scripture for over one-seventh of the human race. Dr. Sells is to be congratulated for a significant contribution to English-language materials on the Qur'an."
-- William A. Graham is professor of the History of Religion and Islamic Studies at Harvard University
"Michael Sells has performed an invaluable service in making the beauty, spiritual energy, and compelling power of the Qur'an accessible to a Western audience for the first time."
-- Karen Armstrong, author of the bestselling A History Of God
"Michael Sells is to be congratulated for making a major contribution to religious literature with Approaching The Qur'An, the best version of Muslim scriptures available in English. This is an important and illuminating work, one that will be welcomed by scholars, students, believers, and all who seek to better understand Islam and its sacred scripture."
-- Carl Ernst, Professor of Islamic studies; University of North Carolina; author of The Shambhala Guide to Sufism
"Michael Sells' Approaching The Qur'An is much more than a translation of the Qur'an. By highlighting issues of the multiple levels upon which the text conveys its meaning to its readers and auditors, Sells manages to overcome the first impression that many people have of the Qur'an being a 'difficult' book. The structure of Approaching The Qur'An, with its parallel translation and commentary, will prove valuable both for interested general readers and for students studying the text within a classroom setting."
-- Andrew Rippin is professor of Islamic and Religious Studies, University of Calgary
"Scholars and students interested in the Qur'an are indebted to Michael Sells for his outstanding contribution to a deeper understanding and appreciation of the Holy Book of Islam. His book, Approaching The Qur'An, with its scholarly introduction, its sensitive English translation of the early Suras, its insightful commentary on them, its analytical study of the auditory and literary aspects of selected Suras, its visually pleasing illustrations from the Arabic text of the Qur'an, and its accompanying CD is a veritable and enriching spiritual experience for everyone seeking a meaningful exposure to the Scripture of Islam."
-- Issa J. Boullata is professor of Arabic Literature & Language at the Institute of Islamic Studies, McGill University
A breakthrough rendition of the Qur'an's earliest chapters.
-- Huston Smith is author of the bestselling work The World's Religions and Why Religion Matters.
Sells has made the beauty, spiritual energy, and compelling power of the Qur'an accessible to a Western audience.
-- Karen Armstrong, author of A History of God
A major contribution to religious literature . . . the best version of Muslim scriptures available in English.
-- Carl Ernst, professor of Islamic studies, University of North Carolina
Product Details
Paperback: 224 pages Publisher: White Cloud Press (November 15, 1999)
Language: English ISBN-10: 1883991269 ISBN-13: 978-1883991265
Product Dimensions: 8.4 x 6.9 x 0.7 inches Shipping Weight: 15.8 ounces
========End======
Well, that is all for now, Dear Sam.
I will try to stay in touch this year.
I do enjoy exchanging with you.
One mistake I made in a recent post was about the influence of the Greeks in Catholic Trinity theology; I should have added that, of course, the idea of a God becoming incarnated as a man is also present in Greek mythology. I wrongly gave the impression that I believed that Roman Catholic Christological doctrine has nothing to do with influence of the Greek or Roman Empirial representations of Gods. I did not mean to give that impression (which was the post where I speak of "running for the theological hills".
Take care.
Talk to you again. Maybe not soon. But soon enough.
Indie
.
Name:sam •
Date: 08/28/10 1:11
A: Dear Indie,
In your previous post YOU SAID,” If Muhammed came back today and saw a woman begging on the street, [etc.] ....I think his anger would be great; I think his cry of anger would be heard at a great distance.
I SAY: you should be fair at the least.
I am sure that you brought the story of a Muslim woman, and the name of Muhammad, to show something wrong in Islam.
Before that you brought Islam in Spain [by a video], and you try to switch the truth by making the Berber and the Christians and the Jews and even the Scottish together are the one who brought Spain to its golden age, and denying the Islam as part of it. The Muslims went to many countries beside Spain carrying with them the Islam teachings [the Quran] as their laws, and from those laws came all the goodness which make the people live together in peace and harmony. Please compare that to the rule of the churches, and how many people killed or burned alive just because they questioned the catholic church of Rome. Christians killing Christians, then after killing the Jews . DID FORGET YOUR OWN HISTORY !!!.
Indie, please be fair. Did you read what Jesus said ?, Mat.7:2/3 “FOR THE WAY YOU JUDGE, YOU WILL BE JUDGED; AND BY YOUR STANDARD OF MEASURE, IT WILL BE MEASURED TO YOU. WHY DO YOU LOOK AT THE SPECK THAT IS IN YOUR BROTHER’S EYE, BUT DO NOT NOTICE THE LOG THAT IS IN YOUR EYE ?”
The Muslim women today who are begging in the street, in poor countries which suffered from many years of war and occupations by outsider [Communist & Christians (English, French, Spanish, American etc.) ], they beg, but they never commits adultery. Today, you are lucky {I am still without work. I do not like the idea of being on unemployment insurance, but am grateful that I can collect it when I really need it.}, that is in Canada and in many western rich country, also in many rich Muslim countries.
You look at the poor women in poor Muslim countries, but you did not look at the poor women in poor Christian countries [even in countries not so poor as Brasil, or in Hindu country as India, or Buddhist country as Cambodia, or countries in central America, or in Africa, and there are beggars in all of them, and others, that is if you really search for the truth.
Some Christian, Hindu, Buddhist women who do not find honest work sell their bodies on the streets or in bars and they are by the millions. ARE PEOPLE BLIND NOT TO SEE THEM !!!.
Did you ever watch a documentaries about the young children [boys & girls] who live on the dumps [rubbish-heap] in the big cities of Brazil, and those who run in its streets stealing and begging, and to get rid of them they created a force paid by the rich Christian businessmen to kill them . It was on CNN TV.
Dear Idie, In the US and in Canada the richest counties in the world there are thousands who live in the street and under the bridges and who go in search for food digging in the garbage on the side streets, and there are those who sit in wheelchair beside the supermarket holding tin can or box waiting for someone to help them with a little change, and people passing by carrying a lot of food, and as if that poor man/woman never exist .
After, you tell me how Jesus will acts if He came and saw Jimmy Swaggart and the many like him from REV. , priests, bishops, who carry the Bible and preach to millions in the churches and on TV’s , while they keep committing horrible sins [adultery] in the churches and outside, while making millions of dollars , and they for sure knew about the poor people in the streets who cannot find their daily bread ?. THOSE ARE NOT MUSLIM, BUT THEY ARE VERY RELIGIOUS CHRISTIANS. I think Jesus will cry so loud that it will reach His God who sent Him, and He will say , “Father, I gave them Your words, but they are following the devil”
“Michael Sells studies and teaches in the areas of qur'anic studies;
Sufism; “
Indie , Sufism is a “BIDAA” , and bidaa in Arabic, is what people create, and what does not go in line with the teaching of Islam which came in the Quran, for that the Muslims do not regard Sofi as Muslims and it is the same with the Druze , and few other sects.
Indie, the Muslims has one book, and it is the QURAN, , and there are no versions of the Quran, while for the Bible there are many versions and the catholic Bible differ from the Protestant, and there are revised Bible and re-revised Bible, and they are not exactly the same because some churches took some books out, or changed the wording [they claim that the Bible is the word of God, so, are they playing with the words of God ?].
The Quran today is the same all around the world, and the same as the Quran which was written 1400 years ago.
The translations of the Quran will not be accepted if it came alone as an English, or French, or Italian Quran, as it is the case with the bible. If the Quran translated, the translation should come side by side with the original Arabic text, so people if they have any questions about a wording they can confirm it by going to a dictionary or ask someone who understand the language.
Jesus spoke the Aramaic language, but the original Gospels were written in the Hebrew and Greek languages and not in the language of Jesus, and then translated to many languages and in translation the word in Aramaic can mean something different when translated in Greek, or in Latin, or in English etc., as you know it is hard even to translate a poem from Arabic to English, and if it is translated word by word, it will not give the whole meaning and in depth.
Did you forget that all the practices done in the churches are not from the teaching of Jesus, and they were not mentioned in the Gospels. If you wish I will bring them to you, for sure.
While ago I talked about the different between the RELIGION & THE PEOPLE WHO FOLLOW.
THE RELIGION: Is what came by a MESSENGER from MASSAGES [by words or acts] in the period while he was alive on this earth, and those are recorded in a book or books that people call holy books, [anything said or mentioned after that is not holy and can be questioned].
What I mean here is, the words of Moses only, and the words of Jesus only, not Jesus brothers or friends and of course not Paul, and the words of the Quran first, and Muhammad second because He is a messenger, but not the words of his family or friends or Imam.
The messages came from God for the people in a simple language so that everyone could understand them,
The Old Testament it came for the Jews and to the Jews only. [it is mainly the story of the Jewish tribes]
The New Testament also came to the Jews, and if you do not agree then remember Jesus’s words.
Mat.15:24 “I was sent ONLY TO the lost cheep of THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL.”
If anyone claims that Jesus came to all the world, that person is claiming at the same time that Jesus is a liar, since ONLY means ONLY, and only the stupid who do not know the meaning of the word ONLY.
The Quran came to the whole world ,
Q-7:158 SAY [O MUHAMMAD], “O MANKIND, INDEED I AM THE MESSENGER OF ALLAH [GOD] TO YOU ALL, [FROM HIM] TO WHOM BELONGS THE DOMINION OF THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH.....”
Muslims believe In Moses and Jesus and they do love them.
Please look at the youtube video’s about the debates which I mentioned in my previous post , believe me, that will get more knowledge than reading hundreds of books from Christians who wrote about the Quran and Islam.
All the information which I wrote came from Christian sources, TV news, TV documentaries, Radio news, newspapern the FBI net, and of cource from youtube too.
God bless you.
Name:sam •
Date: 08/28/10 1:16
A: Hi Indie,
Note: Did you know that ISLAM in it is very early days WAS SAVED BY THE CHRISTIANS, otherwise it was dead and no one heard about it .
If you want proven information [ just talk], let me know.
God bless you.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 08/29/10 14:05
A: .
Sunday morning
August 29th 2010
Good morning Sam.
Well, it looks like summer is returning to eastern Canada.
With all the reports on the 5-year anniversary of the big flood in New Orleans in the south of the US, I cannont help grieving for the millions affected by the floods in Pakistan. I knew Catholics from India and Pakistan back in the 60s in Montreal. Many have relatives affected by this mammoth tragedy.
Now I shall respond to your concern that I was being unfair.
I wrote that I thought Mohammed would not be pleased with some of our social conditions of today.
You responded with :
"I am sure that you brought the story of a Muslim woman, and the name of Muhammad, to show something wrong in Islam. "
Sam, your impression of my intent in mistaken.
Your response, giving a balanced view of how poverty affects women in countries not as rich as Canada is acceptable to me.
I do not take issue with your response.
I thank, even, for reminding me that some of my examples are taken from the Western slant of reporting.
I try as best I can to step outside of the bubble of western reporting.
Some investigative journalists are very good.
I also have respect for some of the work done by Al-Jazera...
So, yes, I do not mind that you remind me to be fair in that sense.
But, when I made the comment about Mohammed, if he were to come back and see a woman doctor begging on a street corner from underneath a burka, he would be angry, I did not mean to say anything negative about Islam : on the contrary; I thought I was paying Islam a compliment, because I was refering to the fact that Mohammed was very sensitive to social justice for the orphan, he was very sensitive to social justice for the widow. He was that way because of who he was, as an orphan.
You know, I once saw a play where different historical figures, from different times, were sat at a table together, for a conversation.
To write such a play, and have actors sit at a table and speak of today's problems, but speak as if they were Jesus, Mohammed, Gandhi, Martin Luther King..., man, what a text that would be to write.
Back in June 2010, I had ordered a book :
Tirs Croisés : la laicité à l'épreuve des intégrismes juif, chrétien et musluman. It is by 2 writers : Carolin Fourest and Fiammetta Venner.
I just started reading it . It is in French.
In the first paragraphs, it says that anybody who thinks that radicalisation has happened in Islam only, has been asleep at the switch in 1970.
I should be an interesting read.
Thank you again for your post.
I need to get ready for work.
I'll keep in touch, Sam. I promise.
Take care.
Indie
.
Name:sam •
Date: 08/30/10 1:57
A: Dear Indie,
Thank you for answering my post.
As for Al Jazira, seldom I open their site [once every few weeks], and my time on the net mostly spend with the scientific sites, and TV channels , and THANK YOU for leading me to the YOUTUBE search , which is now take most of my time on the net, and I learned a lot, not by reading only from one I cannot see, but by watching real people faces bringing their stories, and their debates, so that people can be free to judge the right from the wrong.
You said, “ I thought I was paying Islam a compliment........ because of who he was, as an orphan.”
The truth is, that you know nothing about Islam or about the Quran or about the life of the prophet Muhammad, not even about the life of the Muslims in their early time and their suffering, when they left their homes seeking refuge, first to the south, to Ethiopia * [rule by Christian king], and after short time the king daughter first to accept Islam followed by the king and many others, second to the north to Medina [Yathreb], with it is majority of Christians, who in short time accepted Islam, and from there the Islam grow, and went back to Mecca and enter it without any bloodshed or revenge, but all what they did is destroying all the tribes gods from stones, 360 of them.
* Here few line about the first Muslims, from wikipedia:
Due to persecution from the current Arab leadership in Mecca, a number of Muslims emigrated to Abyssinia - Kingdom of Aksum [Ethiopia] .
In response, the Arab leaders sent Amr ibn al-Aas * to bring them back . Amr was a friend of al-Najashi [Emperor], and as the same time also had good relation with Abu Sufyanthe leader of Quraish......
Ashama [the king] did not act in a hurry but showed patience and demanded the holy scripture of Muslims to be read....
Ja`far ibn Abi Talib recited some verses from the Quran from the chapter of Maryam (Mary)...
In reply to this statement, King Ashama made a line on the sand with his mace and said, By God, Jesus is not more than what you have described him. By God, I will never give you up to anyone. He then declared that Muslims could live in Abyssinia for as long as they wished for.
According to Muslim tradition, it is during this situation that King Ashama converted to Islam.
* Amr ibn al-Aas He was a shrewd, highly intelligent man who belonged to the nobility of the Quraysh. He fought with the Quraysh against Islam in several battles. He went to fight the Muslims when he saw them praying with the prophet.....Once he converted to Islam with
Khalid ibn al-Walid, he became a great commander fighting for the Islamic cause. ....
Amr ibn ul aas mosque, the first mosque in Africa,
It is believed that he played an important role in the Arab conquest of the regions of Palestine, Syria and Egypt.
God bless you.
Name:sam •
Date: 08/31/10 21:27
A: Hi Indie,
Please watch - youtube:
[ A jew leaks out the true name of the God of the OT]
The Christias been taught by their churches that Allah is not God.
You are a Christian, and for sure you no this fact.
After watching this video, tell me if what the churches are teaching are wrong , and it is just of their lies which they are creating about Islam.
God bless you.
Name:sam •
Date: 09/04/10 0:19
A: Dear Indie,
At the top of this forum I found the following:
Free Bible study...God the son [which I need to discuss with you]....etc.,
From the "God the son" , it say:
----Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:16)
"When He began His MINISTRY, Jesus himself was about thirty years of age, being, as was supposed, the son of Joseph,......the son of ADAM, THE SON OF GOD." L-3:23-38 [GOD HAD ANOTHER SON CALLED ADAM]
The word "BEGOTTEN" came 4 times, ONLY in John - 1:14 , 1:18, 3:16 &3:18 which is no more than his opinion and his philosophy about God and Jesus. Also it was mentioned 11 TIMES, by Paul and others in the same way. Jesus never said or mentioned that He is THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON.
----He was the first of God’s creation and was present with God during the creation of the heavens and the earth. (Prov. 8:22-31 NIV)
[The PROVERBS were written by many unknown people beside SOLOMON..... those are the words of people, not God's words. No one was with God at the beginning of the creation...
"Since the beginning of the creation which GOD CREATED [here only God], until now, and never will. Mat.-13:19.
There is no mention of Jesus as a partner with God in the creation by Mat.13:19.
To say, " He was the first of God's creation", it is by itself denying the words of the Bible, the words of God, in GENESIS.
"At the first God made the heaven and the earth." Genesis 1:1
Every creation were mentioned AFTER, but you think that God forget to mention Jesus His son, or not to mention that Jesus was present with Him while he is making the creation???.
----TOGETHER, they created man IN THEIR IMAGE. (Gen. 1:26) “…
THIS IS A LIE.
In 1:26 - LET US make man in OUR image.
Here God presenting Himself in plural term, and He do not refer to another with Him. The next verse 1:27 gives a clear evidence to that.
Genesis say that only God was making the creation, so, how they can bring Jesus together with God !!! ???.
G-1:27 And God made man IN HIS IMAGE, in the image of God he made him: male and female he made them.
The Christians [the churches] , changed the SON OF MAN to the SON OF GOD.....and changed GOD ALONE to TOGETHER WITH GOD, and changed IN HIS IMAGE to IN THEIR IMAGE, and from before Abraham, and I AM they made Jesus God !!!, forgeting what Jesus said and done:
- I CAN DO NOTHING ON MY OWN INITIATIVE.
- ...NOR IS ONE WHO IS SENT [that is Jesus] GREATER THAN THE ONE WHO SENT HIM [God].
- ... THE GLORY THAT IS FROM THE ONE AND ONLY GOD.
-.... NO ONE IS GOOD EXCEPT GOD ALONE.
-.... HE SPENT THE WHOLE NIGHT IN PRAYER TO GOD.
-.... THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD.
These are Jesus's own words, and they are clear enough to understand, so, why the Christians do not believe in what Jesus said, and believe in what Paul and the Romans and in what the churches and the scholars created ?!.
Just few Questions: 'if God made man in His image', that means people on this earth have the same look and shape as God, and God like man with body, heart and liver, and stomach and the other parts as man [not woman], also arms and legs, and a head with nose, eyes, hair etc., and He gets tired like man and needs rest. G-2:2 "And on the seventh day God came to the end of all his work; and on the seventh day HE TOOK HIS REST, from all the work which he had done."
Three person but one God ?. A formula created by the people of the churches, which cannot be accepted LOGICALLY. When people question it , the smart Christians answers , "you have to accept it by FAITH only. They do not want people to use their brain and the logic
If the three persons [THE FATHER , THE SON, THE HOLY GHOST] are ONE GOD, in heaven, then Jesus will not be RECEIVED, and SAT DOWN on the right hand of God. [MR- 16:19]. From that I understand that there are two chairs, God sit on one [as normal man] , and Jesus sit on the other to HIS right, and I wonder where the holy ghost sit, and does he have a chair in the heaven beside God and Jesus or not ?.
Does God stand and sit and walk ?, does He get tired ?, did God walk on earth with Abraham and others ?, did any human saw God ?.
John 1:18 No man has seen God at any time; the only Son, who is on the breast of the Father, he has made clear what God is.
{Jesus did not see God, but only exlpain what God is.}
{Abraham is a man and He never saw God, or walked with HIM}
1John 4:12 No man has ever seen God......
----and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. 1Cor.8:6
Those are Paul's words.
Also, he said , I AM NOT LYING, LET NO ONE THINK ME FOOLISH, LET US DO EVIL THAT GOOD MAY COME, I ROBED OTHER CHURCHES, JESUS THE SON OF GOD.....ETC..
I went thrugh what came in "GOD THE SON"
Then I went back to the catholic site to see how they explain the "GOD THE SON";
"Mary possesses a unique RELATIONSHIP WITH ALL THREE PERSONS OF THE TRINITY,........ SHE WAS CHOSEN BY GOD THE FATHER TO BE THE MOTHER OF HIS SON; GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT CHOSE HER TO BE HIS VIRGINAL SPOUSE.....GOD THE SON CHOSE HER TO BE HIS MOTHER." !!!!!!
Did God mention this story in any holy book ?.
Did Jesus ever mentioned such a story?
They claim that Mary is the mother of God, is She the spouse of God the holy spirit too?.
Did Jesus chose Mary to be His mother, and chose Her to be His virgin spouse ?.
God bless you.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 09/06/10 5:22
A: .
Sunday September 6th, 2010
Hi Sam.
Thank you for the information on the Youtube clip by the young fellow explaining the consonants in classical Hebrew and Arabic.
Fascinating!
He is funny too.
I'm still laughing, just thinking about him.
The world needs more clips like that one.
As we approach the anniversary of September 11th,. the TV replays footage of the NYC Trade Center collapse. Also, the news seems to be multiplying line bunnies reports on controversies in the US surrounding proposed building sites of Mosques.
This clip which you led me to, where a Jew explains, with humour and logic (always a good combination) how wrong it is to pretend that there is some huge difference between Judaism and Islam.
When I went to sip tea in the Arab sections of Jerusalem in the evenings, I felt like I was with the people of the land.
When I came across the Allenby Bridge and was met by the border employees, the faces and accents of the Jews attest to the fact that they are a dispersed and gatheres people.
When I sat in the lobby of my East Jerusalem Hotel and listened to an Evangelical South African talk about the superiority of the races (in 1980), I could not believe how much madness there can be in the world...
Sam, you are right. I know nothing about the Quran and about Islam.
My stay in the East in 1980 was spent with two Muslim Palestinians, my driver and guide, who talked of sports, the Olympics, told jokes, sang along with the radio as we drove all over the land. They told me so many stories.
But we never discussed the Quran. I only knew that my driver's brother had been killed in the Six-Day War and he had had to assumed responsibility for his brother's wife and children. I spent more time just listening to my driver and guide talk and argue and laugh. Once in a while, the guide would let me in on the gist of the conversation and I'd put in my 2 cents worth in English. Then my driver would say something funny in response. I'd laugh. Then the two of them would go back to talking to one another in Arabic. I guess that I was enchanted by the culture first. Palestinian culture. I didn't feel the need to discuss religion with these two men. Just eating, joking, sight-seeing was enough; and my driver could sing for hours.
Since I grew up with a Dad that sang a lot, I could listen for hours to my driver sing to himself in Arabic with the radio. I was an archaeology student. Our conversations about religion were not on the level of my conversations with you.
I use to eat olives for breakfast, instead of fruit. Every morning, my driver would get the hotel worker to set out a few more olives on my plate than the day before. I never knew. I only knew that each morning, when I'd finish every olive on my plate, my drive and guide would burst into laughter and looke at me and then talk to one another in Arabic. They only told me about the joke on my last day in Jerusalam. The guide was classically educated and knew a lot about poetry. We didn't talk about religion. We talked about the US boycott of the Olympics. I guess Reagan was President that year...
Perhaps now you can better understand why it is that I feel a connection to the history of the Arab culture.
To return to the clip on the Hebrew and Arabic ethimology of the word for 'God', that fellow's opinion of the Evangelicals is not surprising to me.
I saw and heard many Israelis roll their eyes with boredom and irritation when the Evangelicals would start talking about their view of eschatology.
I have known for decades that Evangelicals get on the nerves of Israelis.
To say it another way : pretend, for a moment, that I went to Lebanon and pretended that I was the best friend of the Labanese, just because I had read a few poems by Kalill Gibran: the Lebanese would soon find me to be very annoying. It is the same with Israelis and Evangelicals : the Evangelicals think they understand Israelis better than Israelis understand themselves.
I would find that irritating as well. I find that the fellow in the clip is clever because without being mean, he lets the Evangelicals know that they are seeing only what they wish to see.
Thank you for leading me to that clip. I think it is brilliant.
I am thankfull for this 3-day weekend here in Quebec.
Take care. I'll try to read your other post in the morning.
Indie
.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 09/06/10 17:31
A: .
Monday August 6th 2010
Today is Labor Day. No one is working.
Millions are affected by the floods in Pakistan.
The 9-year anniversary of "September 11th" is around the corner.
Americans are protesting the building of Mosques.
AlJazera's scholars have interesting interviews.
The people who need to hear them don't expose themselves to the interviews.
Whether President Obama of the USA is Christian or Muslim,
whether President Obama of the USA is an American citizen or not,
whether an American actress-musician with freckles is in re-hab or not,
seems to be important to some.
Sam,
I told you about the story of my Palestinian driver and Guide having the waiter in Jerusalem put more olives on my breakfast plate every morning.
I told you that my Palestinian driver and Guide had a good laugh about me eating every olive put on my plate; that I never noticed the pile getting bigger and bigger every morning.
I told you about sipping tea in the desert each night with them.
I told you about just listening to them talk for hours in Arabic, not understanding a word and not caring.
I told you about needing to sit behind the driver, leaning forward over the metal bar, so that I could listen to my driver sing along with Palestinian radio.
I told you that we did not actually discuss religion. Not the way you an I discuss it.
To just eat with them, travel with them, joke with them, listen to them,
was already everthing.
To just be with them was everything.
When the loyal son went to his father and said :
"Father, my brother who went away and squandered his inheritance, for him, you have killed the fatted cow and you rejoice."
The father said to his son :
"My son, you are always with me. Everything I have is yours. But your brother who was gone, is here. I had to rejoice."
Sam, for me, the biggest gift is to have someone tell me about their life.
To be with someone means that when you are with that person, time stops, the rest of the world and its history goes off into some strange, time-warped, Eisnteinian tangent.
To be with another human being is to not be content to stand beyond a wall that separates your from that human being.
To be with another human being is to ask, for example the following question :
Question :
Do you mean to tell me, Sam, that the main difference between Christianity and the other 2 Abahamic religions is the Trinity? Is Christology?
Sam, if that is all it is, ..., man! 90% of Catholics I speak to don't understand or believe in the Trinity anyway.
So, what is left?
What is left are ... the sayings of Jesus. His words.
Our biggest concern is not, or should not be differing theologies.
Our biggest concern is the sheer number of people and the limited ressources of the planet.
In a garden, we do not plant the seeds too close to each other.
We give each plant space.
As a Globe, we need to tackle population growth,
manage ressources and learn more about history in order to not be freaked out by a groups need to hang onto their history.
The words to a song from the musical "South Pacific" explain to the American nurse, who does not understand how a Frenchman could become part of the Polynesian culture, in the song "You have to be carefully taught".
We all have been carefully taught.
We all now need to be carefully un-taught.
I invite you and any reader to go back up to the very first post of this page and read, or re-read the last 2 lines of that 1st post, before I typed my name.
I think more people could actually be okay with those 2 lines than they say they are.
Indie
.
Name:sam •
Date: 09/08/10 17:21
A: Dear Indie,
“ Fascinating! ...He is funny too [The young fellow.....I’m still laughing, just thinking about him. The world needs more clips like that one.”
I had the same impression while watching this young fellow, not only because the simple way he used [only a torn page from his pad, and a pen], but because he answered my question which I been looking for a long time.
While ago I watched documentary about Jesus life, and while He is walking surrounded by people, He was talking to them, and He mentioned the name ALLAH. I was surprised, and from that time I wished that I would come to a Jew to ask him about it, and if they use in their books the name Allah. Thanks to this young fellow for answering my question.
“How wrong it is to pretend that there is some huge difference between Judaism and Islam.”
The question about the diferences is, “WHO IS RIGHT ?”
The Muslims accept the notion [concept] that “both are cousin”, as Ishmael and Isaac are brothers, and they are equals.
The Jews, they do not accept the concept that Isaac the son of the free woman as equal to Ishmael the son of the maid.
The Muslims believe That Allah [God] is the only God for all the people.
The Jews believe that [Allahim*] the God of the Jews is the only God, and Allah of the Muslims is not God.
The Muslims believe in Abraham and Moses and Jesus as prophets.
The Jews believe in Abraham and Moses as the only prophets.
The Muslims accept the Torah and the Gospels as holy books.
The Jews only accept the Torah as the words of God, but the Gospels and the Quran are the works of the devil !!!.
The Muslims believe that all people are equal in the sight of God. The poor and the rich, the king and the servant, the black and white, man and woman, and those who will be closer to HIM are the RIGHTEOUS of them.
The Jews believe that they are the chosen ones [by God], and they are above the rest of the people.
Indie, I hope that I explained the differences between the Judaism and Islam.
You said, “The world needs more clips like that one.” And here another:
*[ the true name of the most high and the messiah 1 of 8]
This is ANOTHER INTERESTING VIDEO by the house of David.
Two rabbis explaining that Jesus is not the Messiah, and Allah is not a God.
They put on the screen the verses from the Torah in the Hebrew language, and underneath it the English translation, and they read the verses in Hebrew and they explain them word by word .
In the English translation they use the term “THE POWER” as for God.
The word on top in Hebrew writing, and they read it as “ALLAHIM”[that is THE POWER].
I noticed that the name ISRAEL in the Hebrew reads as three words “ ya...sha...allah”, and their explanation as this,
–the first word ‘ya’ means ‘he’- the second word ‘sha’ means ‘prince’- the third word ‘allah’ means powerful God......
These few lines I took from the video 2of 8. I found that the 2 & 3 are the most interesting ones.
Please, if I quoted anything wrong let me know. Many thanks.
And the following videos, just for laugh.
[two ex christians laughing]..........A young fellow and an old fellow, they will make you laugh .
[watch this you will laugh to death]...... For sure you will.
God bless you.
Name:sam •
Date: 09/10/10 16:37
A: Hi, Good morning Indie,
In my previous post I explain the differences between Judaism and Islam, and that answer was short in regard to your question which say:
"the main difference between Christianity and the other {2 ABRAHAMIC RELIGIONS } is the Trinity? Is Christology ?"
As for the Jews [The first Abrahamic religion] , the Trinity means nothing to them, since they do not believe in Jesus in the first place, not even as a prophet, and regarding Him as a false prophet.
As for the Muslims [the last Abrahamic religion] , they do believe in Jesus as a prophet , and the Messiah, and believe that the words He spoke came from God, and the difference between the Christians and the muslims are not only the Trinity, but their claim that Jesus is God.
For nearly 1600 years all Christians believed blindly in the Trinity. No question asked.
Today, many Christians [not the churches] have doubt about the Trinity, or reject it, because it cannot be accepted logically.
So, when you say, "90% of Catholics I speak to don't understand or believe in the Trinity anyway."
Dear Indie, is that to prove that the Muslims were right, and for 1400 years?.
God bless you.
In a talk with a friend, two years ago about the Trinity, he say, "I do not understand the Trinity, and I feel , it is not right", I say, "so, why you believe in it", his answer, "if we [the Christians] do not believe in the Trinity, what will happen to the church ?, I say, " you are worry about the church, but you are not worrying about what happen to you if you are on the wrong pass , in the judgment day."
Today the churches are worry about many things, less people attending their services, Islam is growing and fast *, the Trinity as a corner stone in their teaching is becomeng less attractive and less acceptable, the bad bunch of preachers and their scandals is another thing, the debates between both scholars , which are all over the world today bring people to understand Islam in a different way than it was told by the churches .
Burning the Quran is another stunt by extremist Christians, to create wrong reaction from extremist Muslims, and to blame Islam for what happen. Then after all the MEDIA will promote what the Muslim & Islam did and for many years, and they will never mention the names of those who started all this !!!, as the Quran burning never existed. This is not new, always they do their best to stop the spread of Islam.
WHY they worry ?
"NBC news: 20 000 Americans covert to Islam" [on youtube]
"The coptic church: 1.8 million Christians embrace Islam by their own choice" [on youtube]- By bishop Maximos.
Most of those who embraced Islam, and specially the Christians from the west are very well educated, and they are very active in preaching the Islam religion.
Name:sam •
Date: 09/21/10 17:21
A: Dear Indie,
I hope that you are OK, and doing well at work. You are in my mind, and I do pray for you always, God bless you.
To know the truth, all the truth, each one have to search beyond his /her own circle, and by doing that we can acquire more knowledge, and that will prevent us from making mistakes, and claiming things which is not true, and I did that when mentioning the Hinduism religion as they do have many gods, and not knowing that they have many books [180 books], and the most sacred one and the oldest [ aproximatly 4 thousand year old] , THE HOLY VEDAS teaches the concept of ONE GOD !!!. [I did not know this fact before]
THE CONCEPT OF GOD IN THE MANY RELIGIONS AROUND THE WORLD.
The concept of God can be found only in the holy Scripture, the holy book [books] , for example:
THE BIBLE, [You shall have no other gods before Me]
THE GOSPELS , [ The Lord our God is one Lord]
THE QURAN, [ There is no other god, but God alone]
THE VEDAS, (The Hindu holy book), [God only one without a second]*
* The concept of ONE GOD in the holy book "VEDAS" have changed after time by many who came after to write many different books, with different concepts of gods, and these cocept take over the first teachings, and that happen in other religions too.
* I did not know this fact, and many other facts about the Hinduism religion before, that is until someone brought it in the open and in front of thousands of people, Hindus and Muslims and others by bringing the Hindu holy books to speak for themself, word by word, and supported by verses taken from the Hindus most sacred book.
Me and You, and all the people around the world they mention the Hindu's religion as "HINDUISM", and the question "ARE WE CORRECT"?.
As I learned now, that the name HINDUISM is first used in the year 1830 , and by the English who occupied India, and there was no religion by the name of Hinduism before that !!!.
I did get these knowledge by watching the debate between:
Sri Sri Ravi Shankar - [Hindu]-
- Founder of the art of living and international Association for human values.
- He has received more than 100 International awards and honours.
- His programmes is taught in over 140 countries.
- He travels to more than 35 countries every year.
- He was invited to the White House by president George W. Bush.
Dr. Zakir Naik [Muslm].
- A world renowned speaker on Islam and comparative religion.
- Founder of Islamic research foundation.
- A medical doctor.
The two scholars debate took place in Bangalore, India, in front of an audience of many thousands, and after the debates there was time for the audience to bring their questions and to receive the answers from both side . And for me, I see that such a dialogue bring people to understand each other, and to come closer to the truth.
Dear Indie, I did not bring this to influence you to accept my opinion, or to change your opinion, but only I bring it so you can get more knowledge about things that you might miss while you reading from one source only.
To watch this debate on video:
"concept of god in hinduism and islam 1/22 "
Hope to hear from you soon.
God bless you.
Name:sam •
Date: 09/27/10 23:56
A: Dear Indie,
Hello,
I am really worried about you, and I hope that you are fine and well.
But if you stop writting to me because of something I mentioned in my posts, for sure I do apologize.
My entention all the time is to exchange thoughts and knowledge, and to learn from each other.
God bless you Indie.
Name:sam •
Date: 10/03/10 14:38
A: Dear Indie,
while ago, you mentioned that if you had the time, you like to learn Arabic so you can read arabic poem.
My questions:
You speak French & English,
a) "How much time you think it will take you to learn the Arabic language ?"
b) " How much time it take for 5 years old [boy/girl] who speaks the persian [the language of Iran], or the sawahili [the language of Tanzania] to learn Arabic and to MEMORIZE THE WHOLE QURAN, AND TO UNDERSTAND IT IS MEANINGS, AND IF THEY WERE GIVEN A FEW WORDS FROM IT, THEY CAN TELL IN WHICH CHAPTER AND IN WHICH VERSE IT CAME ? !!!.
Children all around the world from China to America memorize the Quran, and understan it very well, and many are recorded on video to be the proof.
I CALL THAT A MIRACLES. The following video to prove it:
1- [5-year- old tanzanian boy converts thousands of people to islam]
2- [muhjizat abad xx (1/3)
3- [ muslim young girl knows the whole quran]
God bless you.
Name:sam •
Date: 10/03/10 16:27
A: Hi again,
From your previous post:
"Sam, for me, the biggest gift is to have someone tell me about their life."
Dear Indie, If I tell you about all my life, my work, the good time and the bad, and if I tell you that My wife been suffering from health problems for the last thirty years, and she been hospitalized many many times, and at one time the dotors ask { loud on the speaker} for other doctors to come, and said "WE LOST HER" Me & my son and everyone in the hospital heard it,.
And the last year and half she been doing every test available, from many specialists [including MRI],and on tuesday , Oct.5 she has an appointment, and they might send her for a special CATSCAN [with oral & IV contrast of the abdomen & pelvis] etc..
Sory to bring this, but I am a 72 years old, and having some health problem too, but my faith in God keep me going as strong as I could be to look after my wife, and I always ask God for help and forgiveness.
Is this story can be as a big gift to you ?, or only the good news !!!.
Indie, for me, the biggest gift is to hear the news that all the people around the world including you are living in peace and love and prosperity, and to hear that they believe in God their creator [not the god whom they created], and they love Him , and obay Him.
Jesus said:
YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD.....
YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.
That is All what we need to come to, a TOTAL PEACE in this world, and its THE BIGGEST GIFT which I seek and witch all the people should seek.
But people try to switch all that by talks.
The Quran said:
And of the people is he who buys THE AMUSEMENT OF SPEECH to mislead others FROM THE WAY OF ALLAH [GOD] without knowledge and who takes it [i.e., His way] in ridicule.... Q-31:6
God bless you.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 10/08/10 11:26
A: Hi Sam.
Will read your post on Saturday and write.
Busy with work.
Talk to you soon.
Indie
Name:sam •
Date: 10/08/10 16:32
A: Dear Indie,
I was worry about you . Thank God that you are busy working . I feel better now.
God bless you.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 10/11/10 13:22
A: .
Monday, October 11th 2010
(Indie responds to Sam's September 8th-10 post.)
(Indie responds to Sam's September 10th-10 post.)
Hello Sam.
I have begun to catch up in my reading of your posts.
I see that I worried you. I did say that I would try to stay active on this site during my work contract this year. My health is good. Sorry to have worried you. I suppose that if something did happen to me, there would be no way of getting word to you. I will try to stay in touch. I do look forward to coming back to this site. Despite all the strange exchanges that are posted to this site, I am so grateful to Mr. Jacabovici and to Mr. Cameron for this little part of cyberspace where I feel that science, history and spirituality can share a quiet moment, and along with that, I am grateful that people from anywhere in the world can speak to one another in this corner of the digital world.
SEPTEMBER 8th post
I will now share my thoughts as I was reading your post of September 8th.
Judaism, Islam and Christianity, all three, have some common writings and some common figures from those writings. All three look to the ancient writings. You describe a timeline of sorts; if I understand correctly, and forgive my simple example, it is as if all of spiritual humanity is riding on a train and the train conductor announces that some principals of faith are about to change; this causes some of the passengers to get off the train.
What you describe is like a "final disembarking" for Jew, for Christians and then for Muslims.
What you describe is like a progressive evolution in the 'Revelation' of the Prophets.
What you describe is one spiritual group saying to the world :
- "Revealed, Divine Communication, stops here for us."
- "Revealed, Divine Communication, stops here for us."
- "Revealed, Divine Communication, stops here for us."
What you describe seems to be exactly what happened with
Jews, Christians and Muslims.
If I may continue with my simple analogy,
I feel like I am one of the people who is still sitting on the train;
I don't want to get off.
I want there to be another part of the voyage to go on.
I feel like I am one of the people who is still sitting on the train;
I want to keep on studying the railroads of the past;
I want to better understand all the paths my train has taken;
I want to better understand what all the passengers have in common.
I want to better understand how big or how tiny the differences are.
SEPTEMBER 10th post
Sam, your Sept. 10th post addresses my question about the Trinity.
I ask if "belief in the Trinity" is the main difference between Christianity and Islam.
The divinity of Jesus would also be an important difference, I suppose.
When we approach these subjects (the Trinity, the divinity...), that corner of my brain occupied by my memories of my theology degree of the 1980s and 1990s yells out to me and says :
"Hey, INDIE!, remember that during your years getting your degree in theology, you were more awake during the history courses!"
That part of my brain also yells out to me, saying :
"Hey, INDIE!, remember that during your years getting your degree in theology, you were more awake during the explanations about the geography of Bible study. "
"Hey, INDIE!, remember that during your years of getting your degree in theology, you were more awake during takl about mercy, forgiveness, patience."
And, last, but not least, my brain screams out to me :
"INDIE!!! Remember how you rolled your eyes during the more theological material? Remember how you rolled your eyes during the Greek philosophical content of your courses?"
What I mean, Sam, is this :
I am not the most knowledgeable person when it comes to Roman Catholic thought on Greek philosophy, on the Trinity.
I wish we could resurrect Ibn Rush (Averoes).
I wish we could resurrect Scott, who translated with Rush, down in
Cordoba, Spain, all those centuries ago.
I wish I could travel in time, and become the little servant who prepares the ink and the parchments for those two men.
I wish my only job was to sit, by their sides, hear them exchange, and have as job 'servant' to the translators.
Perhaps, when the new Center opens up in New York, I might visit it and find out the answer to my questions.
Yup.
I can hardly wait for CORDOBA HOUSE to open its doors.
I wish I could be the first person to cross the threshold of Immam Abdul Rauf's house of peace. What a beautiful name to give it.
Cordoba House.
I like it.
If I could be Imman's first guest in Cordoba House, my first question will be :
"Immam. Take me to the room where I can learn about Ibn Rushd and Scot and what it is they thought was so interesting about Greek philosophy."
I would say to Immam Rauf :
"Immam, I was asleep in my theology classes when the Catholic priest explained about the exchange between Greek philosophy and Catholic theology. Can you explain it to me? Is there a room in your House of Cordoba where I can travel back in time to learn about Ibn Rushd and Michael Scot.
I want to know now.
I want to understand now.
What is it that they were so excited about, as they translated the Greeks?"
That is my wish, on this holiday October morning,
this holiday called, in French, "Action de Grâce" (Action of Grace),
this holiday called, in English, "Thanksgiving".
On this holiday, I wish to give thanks for people like Immam Rauf,
who makes me feel like
Ibn Rushd (1126-1198), and
Michael Scott (1175-1232) did not live in vain.
Indie
.
Name:sam •
Date: 10/16/10 1:04
A: Hello,
Dear Indie,
I am glad to hear from You, thank you.
You had many wishes, and so am I . My wishes goes on line with yours.
But my most important wish is to see the people of this small house [earth] live in peace, and they look at the children of this house as if they are their own, no child should cry from hunger, or sickness, or fear, and we should save our house, as God made for us.
Dear Indie, Your last post came with many questions, and I will answer them in my next post, but before that I have to say few words, so you know me better.
- I been into Mosque and Church [first 5 years in catholic school]
- after that [age 14] I left town [from Leabanin to Iraq], and from that time till the age of 65 , I visited Mosques and Churches in occasions, I never prayed, never read any religion book, or any book talk about religion.
- On my 65 th birthday my son & wife & grandson sent me a computer as present. Many hours on the phone to learn how to start and go on with it, and I had to call my son when I stuck, because I press on a key , the wrong one, and once I was terrified when the screen turn red and a big horible notice on it, please don't laugh.
- About A year after, and the National Geogaphic channel brought a dcomentery about about the discovery of the Judas Gospel, and I came to find the forums [the first forum] , and I read all sorts of discussions, opinions from all sorts, mostly from Christians, and few Muslims , and Buddhists, and others, and that open my mind to find the truth, and for the first time I bought the new testament [from Value village], and the Quran with English translation [from book store], and I read all before I joined the Forums, and I had many good friens there.
While I am reading the books I started making notes on paper then I transfered them to the "WORDPEFECT", and my knowledge grow every day, BUT,
One day, my son while visiting, came to my room and watch me writing from page on the screen, and he asked me "why you writng all that?", I say, "because I need them for answer to the forums", then he said, " you don't know about copy and paste", I said no, and he called Kelly [his wife], she came, and he told her about what I am going though from hard work, and he show me the right way, while we share a good laugh.
He show me few things, but I asked him to write them for me because my memory not as good as it use to be, and here what he wrotes
ctrl -
A = all
S= save
C= copy
V= paste
X= cut
All at used up to now is copy and paste.
And my work became easier in my second forums, "THE TOMB OF JESUS", but even with my BA degree, my English, grammer and spelling, still need a lot of work, that is why I still depend
on the dictionary/thesaurus to write, and to bring my thoughts correct. That takes a lot of time. What you write in minutes, take ten times or more.
You can laugh at me, that is OK, because every time I remember that time I do really laugh at myself.
Dear Indie, I wrote all that just for you to know me better. And I am not a sheik or Imam or religous person, and I see myself as a person that will never stop seeking knowledge even at 72, and I love history, geography and science ,and I know that only honesty and good work will bring the truth.
God bless you.
Name:sam •
Date: 10/17/10 14:51
A: Good morning Indie,
The National Geographic forums suddenly stopped, and I lost very good friends, and I am afraid that might happen to this forums, and I been thinking for a while to find a way to keep our contact and friendship at the least by TELL-phone. That will come in a way, which I am sure that you can understant it.
Dear Indie, It STARTED FIRST in 1905 when my grandfather lifted up the reciever, and ask the centralist to connect him, and called first V I V his best friend, and he had to shout loud, to get his voice heard on the other side. that was then, but today we can call direct by a touch-phone either by number or by letter [ M-6] to make it easy to remember, and a wisper from Missisauga can be heard clearly in Montreal. And at the end of this message a KUSS from me, and I hope that it will be enough to understand my message, so please give 6e a call.
God bless you
Name:sam •
Date: 10/17/10 22:46
A: Hello,
Indie, If you did not get/figer out my phone number, then please let me know, so I will send it in my next post.
Your friend S2m
God bless you.
Name:sam •
Date: 10/23/10 0:17
A: Dear Indie,
You asked two questions: 1- I want to better understand how big or how tiny the differences are.
2- I ask if belief in the Trinity is the main difference between Christianity and Islam.
The following is my answer to both questions, and I leave it to you to figure out the differences, and how big or tiny are they , and if only the trinity is the only main difference.
In the “HAMMOND MEDALLION WORLD ATLAS” , PAGE B-42 , on a map headed by “JOURNEYS OF THE APOSTLES” , beside Damascus , is written in red “ HERE SAUL FIRST PREACHED THAT CHRIST WAS THE SON OF GOD”.
- That came AFTER Jesus death.
- That came long BEFORE the writing of the Gospels.
Questions:
1- What was it the preaching of Jesus’ twelve apostles ?. [Paul is not one of them], please let me know.
2- What was the preaching of Jesus Himself ?.
[ Was is these words ,NO ONE IS GOOD EXCEPT GOD ALONE.....THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD...THE SON OF MAN, or I am the son fo God ?]
3- What was it the opinions of Jesus’ followers, was He known as “ son of God”, or as “prophet?.
Luke- 7:28
[ I [Jesus] say to you, AMONG THOSE BORN OF WOMEN THERE IS NO ONE GREATER THAN JOHN......]
- JOHN KNOWN AS PROPHET. Both John and Jesus were born of woman, Jesus knows this fact when He mentioned that John is greater than Him.
Mat.-4:13
[......COMING TO JOHN, TO BE BAPTIZED BY HIM.]
Mat.- 21:10/11
[When He [Jesus] had entered Jerusalem, all the city was stirred, saying, “ WHO IS THIS ?”
And the crowds were saying “THIS IS THE PROPHET JESUS, from Nazareth in Galilee.”]
- The crowds are JESUS’ FOLLOWERS. Paul was not among them.
Luke- 24: 19 {the Resurrection}
[And He [Jesus] said to them, “what things ?” and they said to Him , “The things about Jesus the Nazarene, WHO WAS A PROPHET mighty in deed and word IN THE SIGHT OF GOD and all people.]
- This happen while Jesus still alive, and that was long before Paul creation of the son of God formula .
Jesus as the son of God, been preached by all the churches for 375 years before the other formula was created, THE TRINITY FORMULA !!! , and they knew the fact that there are many other sons of God mentioned in the Bible, and they tried to figure out a way to make Jesus an equal to God as NOT ONLY AS HIS SON, and they came with an idea to solve this problem, and thanks to the Roman and their Emperors to bring for them a solution, THE THREE IN ONE, as it is with the Romans and the Greeks beliefs in many gods.
It was easy for Paul to bring a lie about his vision, and to spread the word, but to make Jesus an equal to God that was a great thing [a heretic at that time] , and that is why many Bishops and the Emperor Constantine and others spent more than 50 years trying to bring the right formula, and they came with the trinity. That what we call a MAN MADE CREATION, and for sure will not survive when faced by LOGIC AND SCIENCE, even when faced by the words of Jesus.
The concept of Trinitarianism came about 300 years after Jesus' passing when certain views considered heretical. (wikipedia- the trinity- origin of the formula)
JESUS SAID:
“WHEN YOU LIFT UP THE SON OF MAN, THEN YOU WILL KNOW THAT I AM HE.”
“YOU CALL ME TEACHER AND LORD; AND YOU ARE RIGHT, FOR SO I AM.”
“THE WORD WHICH YOU HEAR IS NOT MINE, BUT THE FATHER’S WHO SENT ME.”
“I CAN DO NOTHING ON MY OWN INITIATIVE....BUT THE WILL OF HIM [GOD] WHO SENT ME.”
THE WORDS OF JESUS ARE ACCEPTED BY MUSLIMS, AND THE TEACHING OF JESUS ARE THE SAME IN ISLAM TEACHING.
SO IF YOU BELIEVE IN JESUS AS A PROPHET SENT BY GOD TO DO THE WILL OF GOD, AS JESUS SAID, THEN THERE ARE NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL BETWEEN ISLAM AND CHRISTIANITY.
BUT TO MAKE OF JESUS THE SON OF MAN THE SON OF GOD, THEN DIVIDE GOD INTO THREE PERSONS, THEN PUT/ BLEND THE THREE PERSONS TO MAKE HIM/JESUS A GOD, AND THE SAYING THAT JESUS IS THE GOD WHO CREATED EVERYTHING, THEN WITH ALL THAT THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN ISLAM AND CHRISTIANITY ARE SO GREAT, LIKE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE MAN ON THIS TINY EARTH AND GOD ON HIS THROWN IN THE HEAVEN.
I wonder if you know anything about God’s Throne in heaven ?.
Since no mention came in the Bible about where is God Throne and how big it is, I will bring a verse from the Quran :2:255
Allah - there is no deity except Him, the Ever-Living, the Susrtainer of all existence. Neither drowsiness overtakes Him nor sleep. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. Who is it that can intercede with Him except by His permission ? He knows what is presently before them and what will be after them, and they compass not a thing of His knowledge except for what He wills. HIS KURSI [THRONE] EXTENDS OVER THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH, and their preservation tires Him not. And He is the Most High, the Most Great.
Mark- 16:19 ......He [Jesus] was received up into heaven AND SAT DOWN * AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD.
First, that show clearly that Jesus is not God.
Second, Jesus was received up into heaven, as it came above, and the Quran say ,”RATHER, ALLAH RAISED HIM [JESUS] TO HIMSELF . And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise.
The Throne of God above in the heavens, and the heavens as we understand today is a universe so big that it is far beyond our imagination, the people who create from man a God before 1700 years, their knowledge of their world is no more that the earth is flat and it is the center of the world., and anything else is heretic. At the Throne there are no chairs for God and others to sit on, man gets tired and sits on chair and fell asleep, but not God.
God is a HOLY SPIRIT , nothing like Him from His creation, not on the earth nor in the heavens. To know God ‘s might and Greatness, is only by seeing His works in ourselves and in what He created on the earth, and in the creation above us in the heavens, the universe.
Q- 40:57 THE CREATION OF THE HEAVENS AND EARTH IS GREATER THAN THE CREATION OF MANKIND, BUT MOST OF THE PEOPLE DO NOT KNOW.
God bless you
Name:sam •
Date: 10/23/10 0:51
A: Dear Indie,
Please watch these videos
the first is by Dr. Jerald Dirks.
Minister, former Deacon, Master degree, in divinity, with honor from Harvard University,[1974], a doctor degree in Psychology, and he wrote many books :
- The cross and the crecent.
He Said, "One defending his religion identity, even he is not sure about his religion.
The site [a christian ministers conversion to islam dr. jerald dirks pt1
The second is by, dr. Laurance brown.
A graduate of Cornell university, Brown Medical School, and George Washington university.
Retired US Air force officer , the rank of major.
Medical director of a major eye center.
Auther of 5 books:
- MISSGOD'ed.
- GOD'ed
- The eight Scroll.
The site [ top american surgeon embraced islam - "i was trying very hard to be a christian"]
God bless you Indie.
Name:sam •
Date: 11/01/10 16:17
A: Dear Indie,
I DO NOT THINK THAT YOU ARE SEARCHING FOR THE TRUTH , OR YOU WANT THE TRUTH, AND YOU ARE KEEPING YOURSLF GOING IN CURCLE, BECAUSE YOU ARE WORIED ABOUT YOUR IDENTITY AS CHRISTIAN, AND THAT IS MORE IMPORTANT TO YOU THAN ANYTHING ELSE, EVEN THE TRUTH!.
"Immam, I was asleep in my theology classes ......[I think you are in the sleeping mode up to now] ........... Is there a room in your House of Cordoba where I can travel back in time to learn about Ibn Rushd and Michael Scot ?.
MANY TIMES, you mentioned the name of IBN RUSH & MICHAEL SCOTT !!!!, as they are the only ones who brought the golden age to Spain and the world !!!, forgetting that there are HOUSES OF WISDOM in Baghdad and Damascus and other places, and there were many scholars and scientist before them and after them, who did equal and greater works.
" Immam.....where I can travel back in time to learn about Ibn Rush, and Micael Scott ",
why you did not ask the Immam these questions to come to the truth:
- Immam, tell me if if Ibn Rushd & Michael Scott, if we go back in time, and Muhammad did not start His mission, or the words of the Quran never been written or lost , or Islam did not reach Spain, what the History will be like for Rushd and Scott ?.
- Immam, do you think that Scott or Rushd will ever come to Spain under the rule of the church ?, and If they came and try to do the same work which they did at the time of Islam, what he will happen to them ?, because as we know from the history of the churches, that any work outside the church is forbidden, and might lead to death in most of the times.
GALILEO : "in 1632, he was tried by the Inquisition, found "vehemently suspect of heresy," forced to recant, and spent the rest of his life under house arrest."
That happen many years after Rushd [1126-1642] & Scott [1175-1232], more than 400 years later.
So, do you think that the kind of work Scott did 400 years before Galileo will lead to his death , even by burning him alive ?.
Indie, You do not have to ask the Immam about anything in the history, because today and in 21st century you can get ll the information in libraries or in the net, and all what you have to do is doing some work.
Indie, you think that you are on the right pass, but you are not, because you do not know that the right pass is following the commandments of God which been brought by Moses, and kept by Jesus, and the words of Jesus and the Quran all are the same ans shows you the way, but you are fooled by the words of Paul and you followed him only.
"is the bible corrupted 2: the beginning (1/10)"
- Paul claimed to of seen a "vision" of Jesus, he then infiltrated the early christian community and had major disagreements with Jesus' followers.
- He claimed to know better than those who met Jesus.
-The half brother and didciple of Jesus, James says...
"You will be doing the right thing if you obey the law of the kingdom, which is found in scripture " James 2:8
Paul in his letter to the Romans says...
"No longer do we serve in the old ways of a written law, but in the new way of the spirit" Romans 7:5
James says...
"It is by his actions that a person is put right with God, and not by his faith alone" James 2:24
But Paul says...
"For we conclude that a person is put right with God.. only through faith, and NOT BY DOING WHAT THE LAW COMMANDS" Romans 3:28
Indie,
- Jesus came to fufill and not to abolish the commandments.
- Paul came to abolish the law and the commandments.
"LET US DO EVIL THAT GOOD MAY COME"
"I MAY OFFER THE GOSPEL WITHOUT CHARGE"
"I HAVE MADE MYSELF A SLAVE TO ALL, SO THAT I MAY WIN....SO THAT I AMY WIN.....SO THAT I MAY WIN........."
"I AM NOT LYING...I AM NOT LYING...I ROBBED THE CHURCHES...."
etc....etc..., by Paul, the liar.
God bless you.
Name:sam •
Date: 11/25/10 1:28
A: Hi Indie,
Everyday we learn, in searching for the truth, that is if we are open minded, but there are many who claim they are learning, and they claim they knew the truth while never look for the truth, even if the truth put in front of them and supported by facts they will reject it AND DENY IT !!!,
From the lecture by Dr. Bart Ehrman, at Chapel Hill University , North Carolina “A Logic proof: Bible is Corrupted” - You can watch this full lecture on youtube.
Dr, Ehrman said that the Gospel according to Mark ended by the verse 16:8 witch is : “They went out and fled from the tomb, for trembling and astonishment had gripped them; and they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid. (.)” That was THE END in the Greek manuscript.
BUT LATER ON, they find out that is not a good ending , “HOW IT CAN END THERE ?” , SO, THE SCRIBES ADDED [+] THE NEXT TWELVE VERSES !!!.
THE SCRIBES MADE UP EXTRA VERSES TO MAKE THE STORY ACCEPTABLE !!! , AND THEY PUT THE EXTRAS BETWEEN BRACKETS [.........]
check it yourself.
I CALL THAT CHEATING, DECEIVING, etc., AND THE CHRISTIAN CALL THAT THE WORK OF GOD !!!.
The work of G.W. Bush is guided by God, because he carry the Bible, and support the church!!!.
BRAIN- WASHED ..... PROGRAMMED
In a debate between a Muslim scholar Ahmed Deedat & Christian scholar Rev. Jimmy Swaggart, Deedat said “CHRISTIANS ARE BRAIN-WASHED , but Swaggart corrected him saying, “THE ARE PROGRAMMED”
I DO AGREE WITH BOTH SCHOLARS, BECAUSE BOTH WERE RIGHT:
THE CHRISTIANS FIRST CAME UNDER BRAIN-WASH FROM THEIR EARLY AGE, THEN LATER ON THEY GRADUALLY PROGRAMMED AS NOT TO ACCEPT ANYTHING WITHOUT GOING BACK TO THEIR PRIESTS AND CHURCHES, BECAUSE THEY BEEN TOLD, “ ANYTHING ELSE IS HERESY” and they blindly believe them , "PROGRAMMED".
We are in the 21st century, and thousand of Christian scholars and others done a complete studies to the Bible, the Old testament and the New , and came with facts that the Bible Old & New both CORRUPTED , and hold a lot of errors and contradictions, and it was the works of THE SCRIBES many years after the real events, and there is NOT EVEN ONE ORIGINAL WRITING .
The highly educated Christian scholars [in the Bible studies] had the proof that the first five books in the OT are not the work of Moses, and the Gospels “ACCORDING” , to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are not the works of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, and the name to those Gospel added after 180 years, .
I been watching many debates, [Muslim vs Christian or Christian vs Christian] and 99% the believer in the Divinity of Jesus , bring the words of Paul to support their claims [Romans, Galatians etc.], as if they knew that if they bring 99% in the words of Jesus instead of Paul that will change the outcome, and Jesus will be not as they claimed but as Jesus claimed.
All Christians knew the facts, that Paul is the one who DEVELOPED CHRISTIANITY, and came with the idea of Divinity and son of God, and the churches are not teaching the words of Jesus , but teaching the words of Paul and other saints and mixing them with the words of Jesus, so they can confuse the reader.
A RELIGION CREATED AND DEVELOPED BY PAUL AND THE CHURCHES OF ROME, ARE NOT A GODLY RELIGION.
BOOKS WITCH BEEN WRITTEN BY SCRIBES, AND HOLDS SO MANY ERRORS AND THEIR WORDS CHANGED MANY TIMES, AFTER MOSES AND JESUS DEATH, THE ARE NOT THE WORDS OF GOD.
God bless you.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 04/30/13 2:09
A: .
MONDAY APRIL 29TH 2013
Well, it has been a while since I visited this page.
Something brings me back.
Something that made me smile.
I come back to this page to share my enjoyment
of 2 short clip by Simcha, entitled
I had to deal with the snobbery of my male classmates, all destined for the RC priesthood, when I would only take exegesis courses, then history courses, never theology courses. I had to fight to go on and take master's level courses in exegesis without having completed all the theology courses. The guys snickered at me when I walked in to my first masters' level exegesis course on John.
Some even said to my face the equivalent of "What do you think you're doing here?" They shut up fast enough when I got an A in our first evaluation, the only one in the class.
So, yes, chapeau, Simcha. My hat is off to you for your 2 short clips, seemingly done in an off the cuff style, in which clarity gushes and crystal thoughts are shared by you. Bravo.
Indie
.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 12/25/14 6:01
A: .
A stone tablet in Bagdad gives social commandments:
- do not steal
- do not covet
- do not harm others
Date of the stone tablet : minus 1850
In minus 1275, further commandments were given:
- keep the sabbath
This coming together of the social and the religious
is explained by exegesis, a type of text analysis.
