Q: Let's not forget that Christians have always been knocking true science for thousands of years if it conflicts with their religion so why would we expect anything different today with this movie? Of course Christians would say Simcha's story is not true. The truly amazing thing is how early Christians got anyone to believe their story in the first place. If someone came along today in 2007 and said they walked on water , healed the sick , raised the dead and were born of a virgin mother, we'd all have a good laugh and put them in a mental hospital. But people truly believed all this happened 2000 years ago and were willing to die for it and commit horrible violence in the name of Christianity throughout the centuries. They persecuted Galileo because they thought the world was flat. Today we still have people in Kansas that want to teach the Bible instead of evolution! So of course they'll go to any extreme to say this movie is a fake. Thank goodness there is no Spanish Inquisition in 2007, because they probably are secretly hoping to burn someone at the stake over this. But just as we found out the world is not flat and the world was not created in 8 days, we'll probably find out also that what this movies says is true. Will people believe it? Of course not, but we already knew that.
Name:KRS •
Date: 03/05/07 16:00
A: As opposed to say, an objective person, which your rant indicates you aren't?
Actually, as a Christian, I am biased against the film, as a scholar, though, I see a lot of problems, the biggest being the identification of Mary Magdalene with the Mariamne in the tomb. As for the evolution debate, have you ever examined the case of a scientific creationists (on something more than a third grade explanation of the theory), or is this simply an expression of your own closed mind?
Name:betty47 •
Date: 03/05/07 16:34
A: I am a proud Italian Catholic American. My family is Catholic. I go to Church every Sunday. I went to Catholic school and even taught Sunday School for a while. So don't tell me who is Christian and objective and who isn't. But I also know the Catholic Church is far from perfect and that people can be incredibly foolish at times. What is the harm in finding out more about Jesus? What are people afraid of? That is something that all Christians should want. Would it change the power of his words? Absolutely not. But Christians are very arrogant about the "truth", and I've always disliked that arrogance. Who are we to say that other people will burn in hell if they don't believe in Jesus? Christians get all wrapped up in knots about abortion, women priests, contraception and homosexuality, and maybe if we find out who the true Jesus was, we'll find out what he really stood for. Don't Christians say the truth will set you free? So let's find out the truth.
Name:KRS •
Date: 03/05/07 17:18
A: There is no harm with an actually search for truth, but I don't get the impression that this is what you are truly seeking. Again there are a lot of problems that any scholar of any real ability would note with this film, but people are accepting it without answering those questions? Check your objectivity, and read something like the case for Christ to get the other side of the argument about the reliability of the gospels if you are really seeking to be objective.
Name:Patricia •
Date: 03/05/07 20:48
A: Christians do not "always" knock science...
I recall the enthusiastic embrace they gave the scientific community as they collectively held their breath awaiting confirmation that The Shroud was REAL... Finally, they would have "proof" to shove into the faces of the "non-believers" that Christ was who they said He was...
But when that same science points in a direction they do not like...
They scream foul... hoax... lies!
Well, Christ existed. Too much documentation to say otherwise.
I know he lived an exceptional life... he died... knew it was part of his purpose... and I love Him dearly for this.
That His body died and rose 3 days later or that they were burried in a family tomb... "ashes to ashes...dust to dust..."
What difference does it make?
If anything, to think Christ might have been much more "like me"... than I thought... that He (although having some pretty nifty abilities) was... "human too"... Well, this gives me fewer excuse when I act like a self-centered, uncaring, lazy, good-for-nuthin' moron.
Yeah... watching that show on the Discover Channel made me a bit nervous...
But the facts are too compelling to ignore... and rather exciting if you put your "freak" down and really think about it.
I mean really... think about it.
Having the coffin of Christ right in front of you.
I'd blubber like a baby.
I believe Christ was the Son of God.
He said we are ALL God's children.
He said, of those "nifty talents" He had... the we could do those too... We could walk on water just like Him.
The Bible tells us that faith, no bigger than a mustard seed can move mountains... but if your faith is so flimsy it can be knocked over with The Truth, what good is it?
Remember my fellow spiritual refugees...
"The Truth shall set you free."
Name:betty47 •
Date: 03/05/07 21:30
A: Yes. It sent chills down my spine to see the actual coffin that Christ "might" have been laid in after his death. But my point is that Christ's words may have been greatly twisted after his death. For example, Saint Paul never even met Jesus, but he converted the masses based on his personal vision of Christ. That vision by Paul has greatly guided Christianity for 2,000 years. For example, woman have been kept out of the preisthood largely based on what Saint Paul said Jesus wanted. But perhaps Christ was different than Saint Paul said he was. We need to find out more about the true Jesus and that could be remarkable.
Name:KRS •
Date: 03/05/07 21:42
A: Betty, you need to remember that Paul tells us that Peter, James the brother of Christ, and John did not argue that he was wrong doctrinally (Galatians 2) so you either have to accept that his teaching about the resurrection was in accord with their teaching or assume he was a complete fraud. Considering the low quality of the evidence supplied here, I can't say we have anything proving the contrary.
Name:Patricia •
Date: 03/05/07 21:58
A: Amen, betty!
But Christ's words have been twisted by so many it is difficult to know what is "real".
The fact that todays Bible is a man-edited version is in of itself a "twist" of words... translations from one language to another... Who knows what remains accurate anymore?
Also, the Bible today consists only of Books and Verses, which we (the ignorant a pliable lay-person) have been "allowed" to see by those in Religious Power.
The King James Version is just that... the "version", which King James allowed... and when the printing press made Bibles affordable to those outside of the church and aristocrasy... MORE adits, more changes...
The Dead Sea Scrolls reveal there are entire books ignored... sections of those we are familiar with have been edited out.
Then... there is the heading of every Book of the Bible... largely ignored...
Every Book begins with these words... "The Gospel According to..."
According to...
Through the interpretation of... a human...
A fallible... opinionated human...
Things that make you go... hmmmm
Name:robin •
Date: 03/05/07 23:42
A: Betty you are absolutely right! The Christians have always went against their own BIBLE. Judge not lest ye be judged...they always are judging people and saying who is and is not going to hell.
Name:pat440 •
Date: 03/05/07 23:48
A: KRS, Thank you for your sound arguments that you have posted in these forums, especially on the veracity and the reliability on the New Testament. I wish all believers had a knowledge of the transmission of the Scriptures that would help them in a debate such as this one.
To all, you know it seems to me that everyone can stand up for what they believe in, EXCEPT Christians. I'm not going to sit here and tell you that the Spanish Inquisition and the Crusades were honorable. To the contrary. As believers, we are told to pursue peace, and edify (build up) others. However, to betty47, I pray and hope one day you'll come to realize that Chrisitianity cannot change a soul, but Jesus Christ can. Do you really believe that you came from a monkey? Then why are dogs still having puppies and cats still having kittens. It seems to me it takes more faith to believe in the so-called "proof" of evolution than it does to believe in intelligent design. How does a painting come to existence? By a painter. How does a building come into existence? By a builder. The fact is, listen to your conscience. Your conscience tells you there is a Creator. And you know what? He loved you so much that He wanted to reveal Himself to you through Scripture and through the Lord Jesus Christ and take of our sin debt. I'm glad you just "KNOW" this documentary on the lost tomb of Jesus will be found true. For 2,000 years, people have tried to do away with Jesus Christ. And yet He has the greatest following ever known to man. And by the way, I don't want to burn anyone at the stake. In fact, I don't want anyone to BURN!
Patricia, you really want to believe that don't you, all that about the Bible being written by man. Well consdier this: Would you ever write about another person to glorify him or her and not yourself? Muhammad wrote about himself and Allah and brought glory to himself. Would you be willing to die for something if you knew it was a lie? Yet the apostles and their associates bring glory to one person: Jesus Christ. They talk about His righteousness, not their own. They talk about His glory and not their own. And you might want to consider this verse: 2 Tim 3:16-"ALL Scripture is BREATHED out by God and PROFITABLE for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness..." One man wrote the Koran, but many men inspired by the Holy Spirit wrote the Bible, and they all agree in this, Jesus Christ is the Son of God who came to this earth, lived a sinless life, died on a cross, rose again from the dead, and is coming again. Every one of them had the same message. Don't you find that interesting? And they all died for HIM!
Name:KRS •
Date: 03/06/07 0:01
A: Pat; according is simply a Greek way of naming an author, its not about interpretation. Additionally, we have copies of the NT going back into the late second century, with more manuscripts than any other book in the ancient world. Additionally, that means we have a copy that is closer in time to the original authorship of the book than any other work in the ancient world. We actually can be more certain about the wording of the NT than we can Homer's Illiad which has about one tenth the number of copies, and has a five hundred year gap (at least) between the oldest copy and the authorship.
As for Christians judging, I'm not the one condemning you or judging you, I'm trying to present facts and what the Bible says - judgment is not about determining what is right or wrong, its about condemning a person and assigning punishment, that is outside of my, or any believer's sphere, since Christ will judge the quick and the dead.
Name:KRS •
Date: 03/06/07 0:04
A: Pat440,
thanks for the kind words; my goal isn't to prove the Bible since only the Holy Spirit of God can convert a man or woman to the Son. I've had three goals, the first is to notify believers that this case is not as strong as the filmmakers seem to believe it is. The second is to ask non-Christians to evaluate the evidence of the New Testament with an Open mind rather than from their own naturalistic bias, and provide them some evidence to do so. Finally, and most importantly, because God has given me the opportunity to study His word deeply over the years, and it is only fitting that I provide evidence and problems with the documentary.
Name:guahould •
Date: 03/06/07 0:15
A: Trust our concience. Hmmm now there is scientific reason!! Man this comedy just never ends!!!! Of course the intelligent people wonder how we got here still but certainly not going to accept some rediculous story like that of noahs ark or any other crazy theory!!!! Got it?? yet?? Awake yet??
Name:guahould •
Date: 03/06/07 0:17
A: It actually amazes me how anyone that is a strong believer actually has the nerve to speak of intelligence or facts.
Name:guahould •
Date: 03/06/07 0:19
A: Whatever happened to the "facts" that the earth is flat,, or that the sun revolves around the earth?? These facts came from the same place did they not?? Now stop referring to the nonsense as facts.!!!
Name:pat440 •
Date: 03/06/07 0:47
A: guahold, because I'm a believer, I'm to throw out intelligence and facts! No, That's why the Bible says, "Come now, and let us reason together,' says the LORD." That's why when the apostle Paul spoke "the words of truth and reason," King Agrippa said, "You almost persuade me to become a Christian." That's why Paul "reasoned" with Felix (the governor) about "righteousness, self-control, and judgment to come." And that's why Felix "was afraid."
At one time the concept of a thousand-ton aircraft flying through the air seemed irrational and absurd. But after man studied the laws of physics, it was discovered to be quite rational and believable. If one studies God's Word and understands His Law, Christianity is seen to infinitely ratoinal and believable. Atheism, on the other hand, rejects logic and evidence and is the epitome of irrationalism. It should be abandoned by any rational person as being foolishness.
Name:robin •
Date: 03/06/07 1:07
A: Fact remains no one will ever know what the first Bible said and all the books that were tossed to the side. What is teh oldest religion in the world I'd say Hinduism. Are they all wrong too? Were the Native American tribes all wrong? I suppose all the Christians taught those heathens a thing or two. Paganism also is older than Christianity. Why is it that the Christians think their Bible and their way is the only way?
Name:robin •
Date: 03/06/07 1:09
A: Also if god is suppose to be so loving and caring and father like why would anyone have to scared into any religion? Why would he take a soul and say ok you have one chance it's my way or hell. Cause I'm so loving? NO.
Name:jsm •
Date: 03/06/07 1:32
A: guahould,
I often find it strange that Christians are viewed as unintellectual and separated from science. I've been a Christian since I was 18 and in college for my Ph.D in Biochemistry & Molecular BioPhysics and Mathematics. The classic response from evolutionists is to bring up outrageous claims made by creationists of the past. I find it funny that only Christians are attacked for coming up with cracked ideas. I'm guessing you are an evolutionist and your breaking down Christians for not being educated so I'm guessing you've thoroughly educated in evolution so I'm sure your familiar with Piltdown man, Java man, Nebraska man, and if you would like more lies / hoax's in evolution I'd be glad to list some for you. In religion there is always those couple of people that are determined to lie or misinterpret truth for their 30 seconds of fame. Goes for the religion of Christianity and the religion of Evolution. So we should not let those very very few people sway our beliefs. Lets stick to the facts. Evolution attacks creation because they know their methods are flawed. I actually had one of my professors tell our class that radioisotope and radio carbon dating were completely unreliable and then said "but don't tell the creationists". If you'd like to I can explain in detail why their not. Let me know. Both religions are based on faith. Thats why there are people that believe evolution and people that believe creation. Because both are based on faith. Neither are proven, for if one was. There would only be one. Just make sure you research into your faith. Holding a Ph.D in the biological field I'm telling you there are ALOT of holes in the theory of evolution. You should really look into it and if you'd like I could write some out for you or you could do a little experiment. Go to Mt. St. Helens and grab two rocks that were created in the 1980's when it erupted and send it to be radio-isotope dated, but tell them you grabbed one from the bottom of the grand canyon and send one to them later and tell them you grabbed it from the top of the grand canyon. You will be amazed with your findings when you open an encyclopedia and look at the dates of the rocks from the bottom and from the top of the grand canyon. Magically they are the same as the encyclopedia. Billions of years old, but wait... they were created in the 1980's.
Name:HeatherC0320 •
Date: 03/06/07 1:45
A: I don't think the modern beliefs of Christianity are the same as what the early Christians believed and taught. I think the early Christians had a message and a religion was built around that message over the course of hundreds of years. Remember, Jesus was "officially AS God" until the Council of Nicea around 600AD.
Name:pat440 •
Date: 03/06/07 1:49
A: Robin, fact remains, we do know what the first Bible says. Jesus Christ, quoted the Old Testament affirmed its so-called mythical stories and presented the Old Testament as authority. Archaeology and history attest to the reliability of the Bible. Let me give you a historical fact to consider: Aristotle's Ode to Poetics was written between 384 and 322 B.C. The earliest copy of this work is dated A.D. 1100, and there are only forty-nine extant manuscripts. The gap between the earliest copy is 1,400 years. There are only seven extant manuscripts of Plato's Tetralogies, written 427-347 B.C. The earliest copy is A.D. 900--a gap of over 1,200 years.
What about the New Testament? Jesus was crucified around A.D. 30. The New Testament was written between A.D. 48 and 95. The oldest manuscripts date to the last quarter of the first century, and the second oldest to A.D. 125. This gives us a narrow gap of thirty-five to forty years from the originals written by the apostles. From the earliest centuries, we have some 5,300 Greek manuscripts of the New Testament. Altogether, including Syriac, Latin, Coptic, and Aramaic, we have a whopping 24,633 texts of the ancient New Testament to confirm the wording of the Scriptures. SO bottom line is this: there was no great period between the events of the New Testament and the New Testament writings. Nor is there a great time lapse between the original writings and the oldest copies. With the great body of manuscript evidence, it can be proved beyond a doubt, that the New Testament says exactly the same things today as it originally did nearly 2,000 years ago.
As far as Christians thinking that there way is the only way. Well Christianity is not the way, Jesus is. In fact He said He was. "I am the WAY, the TRUTH, and the LIFE, and no man comes to the Father but by me."-John 14:6. Either He told the greatest lie that has ever been told, or He told the greatest promise and truth that has ever been stated. Buddha never made such a claim. Muhammad never made such a claim. And Mahatma Ghandi acknowledged the inability of his religion to atone for sin. Despite his moral lifestyle and good works, he admitted, "It is constant torture to me that I am still so far from Him whom I know to be very life and being." Only Jesus did made the claim, and He backed it up when He arose from the grave.
Robin, no matter how decent or moral we think we are, we have all sinned against God and His holy Laws. To see how you fare against God's standard, read the Ten Commandments (given in Exodus chapter 20). God's concern isn't whether or not we believe in Him; the Bible says that even the demons believe--and tremble. God commands that we repent of our sins and trust Jesus Christ alone for our salvation. If we refuse to do that, we will be given RIGHTEOUS justice on the Day of Judgment and we will perish. "But God demonstrated His own love toward us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8
Name:jsm •
Date: 03/06/07 1:49
A: betty47
"But people truly believed all this happened 2000 years ago and were willing to die for it and commit horrible violence in the name of Christianity throughout the centuries"
What about the millions that died in the name of evolution? Hitlers plan to eradicate the Jewish kind because he thought they were weak. Taking "natural selection" into his own hands. Or the two kids that went into the Columbine High School and killed students that believed in God. But the media didn't like to mention that they were wearing shirts that said "natural selection" on them, and in their journals at home they wrote they were fascinated with Darwin and natural selection. Don't make it sound like its all one sided. Do some research...
Name:hermit •
Date: 03/06/07 1:56
A: Robin you are correct and fine. It was the mans words not the body. And you are also correct G-d does not neeed you to be Christian or jew or muslim, Just be good. And now that everyone Knows Jesus was just what he said he was, a Man. The Physical body died and he lived on
he ascended, anyone can do that if you work at it an be good. He just wanted everyone to be Good and Loving... No you and no one should ever be scared into a religon that is Not G-dlike at all.
Name:HeatherC0320 •
Date: 03/06/07 1:56
A: A: JSM
I don't think Hitler and Columbine are examples of murder for evolution. Rather murder by individuals who could have been clinically diagnosed as mentally unstable.
Name:KRS •
Date: 03/06/07 1:56
A: Guahold
Actually, the Bible doesn't say the earth is flat, and in fact, some of the first references where the Vatican has stated that this was against Church doctrine was on the basis of commentaries on the book of Job, due to a phrase involvinge the Sphere of the Earth hanging on nothing. The idea of a flat Earth came into Church dogma through Aristotle, not from the Bible. Incidentally, arguments that the Bible teaches that the earth is the center of the universe are the equivelent of my declaring you believe that the earth is the center of the universe, because I heard you mention that you saw a beautiful sunrise: in both cases I'm reading meanings into an expression that is obviously contrary to your intent.
As for Facts, I've cited those ad. Nausium, if your interested in facts, you'll check around, if your not (as I suspect) then it saves me the trouble of typing it out again. Frankly, you are far more closeminded than most believers that I know.
Name:jsm •
Date: 03/06/07 2:01
A: HeatherC0320
As for the kings that sent out their troops to kill for the name of Christianity. Either go to war, or die as a traitor. Either way, its not a good argument to use against Christianity. It needs to be laid to rest.
Name:KRS •
Date: 03/06/07 2:01
A: Robin, the first law of logic states that a statement cannot be both true and false at the same time, in the same way, therefore, it is impossible to argue that all faiths can somehow lead to the same place, examine the evidence I've put in other places objectively, if your capable of it.
As for God being loving, yes He is, He is also just, and therefore judges man. The Bible also tells us he left a witness in nature, a witness man in his hubris tends to reject. The problem with your argument is that it assumes man deserves better, from a Christian worldview.
Name:jsm •
Date: 03/06/07 2:02
A: Nobody will know if they were crazy or just power hungry and looking for an excuse
Name:KRS •
Date: 03/06/07 2:03
A: JSM, glad to see you here.
Name:pat440 •
Date: 03/06/07 2:03
A: Hermit,
Jesus said, "before Abraham was I AM." - John 8:58. He also said that "unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."--John 3:3. Where did you get your statements from? Do you consider yourself to be a good person?
Name:KRS •
Date: 03/06/07 2:08
A: Hermit, check what I've noted on the NT in other areas, I've posted it so often that I'm tired of doing it over and over. There is no evidence that Jesus did not claim to be God, as he did in John 8:53, naming Himself YHWH. The Talmud records that the Jews had him executed due to his sorcery and Blasphemy (which was the charge noted in the New Testament). Therefore, it seems highly unlikely that this is something Christians invented later.
Name:KRS •
Date: 03/06/07 2:09
A: Sorry, Hermit, getting tired, and I forgot to finish. You need to evaluate Jesus on the basis of the sources, not on what people say.
As for being scared into salvation, an old preacher summed it up quite well - "To love God is to fear God, and to fear God is to love God." Remember, it is not an New Testament text, but one of the Old Testament proverbs that tells us that the fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom.
Name:jsm •
Date: 03/06/07 2:10
A: robin
Were not scared into worshiping god or go to hell. Gods gift to us was free will. Thats the whole "if gods knows everything why would he create Lucifer knowing he will turn on him". Because if we didn't have a choice or freewill it wouldn't be true love. This is you exercising your free will not to believe what god wrote. If you wish not to believe him, he loves you, but he will be just in your decision. He only wants people in his kingdom that truly believe in him and truly love him. Not made to trust him and not made to love him, but exercising their free will to truly love him. So using the "if he's so loving why would he send people to hell for eternity" is a futile argument. You cant change your mind when its proven to you when you die, because then you truly don't love him. You just want the rewards
Name:KRS •
Date: 03/06/07 2:12
A: Heather, We can certainly connect Hitler's evolutionary philosophy to his murder, since his religion was a combination of Social Darwinism and German Occultic belief. Incidentally, Darwin's supporters are the primary cause of late nineteenth and early to mid twentieth century racism.
Name:hermit •
Date: 03/06/07 2:14
A: Pat440
your bible quotes are nice but have no real point, don't go quoting scripture without understanding all that is there. That nonsense is done all the time to attempt to prove a point when in fact it is the refuge of people who donot understand what they are quoting and just trying to force their Point of View on someone else. Being reborn has nothing to do with any christian religion as it is structured today. John Baptised Jesus symbolically for him, with water. This was just a physical demonstration. The REAL REBIRTH is the Spirit that is NOT Physical or tangible in the common Mundane way of Seeing.
A person can be reborn in spirit without the help of anyone or water. They just have to know they are part of G-ds creation, and behave the way Jesus and Mary and James, etc., taught, The REBIRTH of the Spirit is all that matters, A Large River of water does not make any difference.
Name:HeatherC0320 •
Date: 03/06/07 2:14
A: KRS:
Incidentally, Darwin's supporters are the primary cause of late nineteenth and early to mid twentieth century racism.
Okay, I'm willing to learn. Explain.
Name:jsm •
Date: 03/06/07 2:16
A: HeatherC0320
Google Ota Benga
Name:Jeff Ward •
Date: 03/06/07 2:17
A: This kind of discourse seems to be the typical path people always take. No matter what anyone person believes, this find beares investigation. To bury it in constant argument would be ashame. The IAA has botched the historical value of such finds and seems willing to dismiss any thought or evidence other than their own. Should we as a civilization be as dismissive? History is constantly being rewritten and to take a hand-off approach to such an historical find, because it challenges our beliefs, would be nothing less than tragic for every living soul on earth.
Name:jsm •
Date: 03/06/07 2:19
A: The african pigmy that was made to live in a cage at a zoo with a chimpanzee to "show" the similarities. He was later released where he committed suicide for what people did to him.
Name:hermit •
Date: 03/06/07 2:22
A: KRS
i am intrigued as to your point. In places one Gospel says he called himself the Son of Man in others he states he is Yeweh, In John's Revelation he says he is the "Bright Morning Star" ... The Current Bible you are quoting has been Revised many times and words in it have been changed, as to the winds of time and who wanted it printed. The Passages have been badly mangled over the years either by accidental mistranslation, or deliberate misquoting.because one person or the other wanted it that way, The King James Version was his point of View,
Or Popes etc.
I do in fact agree with you as to what the Crimes were he was charged with, in that you are correct
Name:jsm •
Date: 03/06/07 2:24
A: Jeff Ward
This is all just a money making scheme and you know it. The same way evolutionists come up with a "missing link" every so often. Magically every new "link" is always the oldest one discovered so the scientist can have their 30 seconds of fame. Evolutionists come up with these false discoveries so they can keep their financial grants from the government and national geographic memberships hot.
Name:betty47 •
Date: 03/06/07 2:40
A: Wow. Look at all this discussion. It's great! This seems to be what the producers of the movie wanted to create...a healthy discussion. Anyway, JSM and KSM, all this nonsense about sin and judging is what Christianity loves to talk about...fear. Fear of hell. Fear of not getting to heaven. Fear of sins. What if there is no heaven and hell? Then what? The Huble telescope has explored to the ends of the universe and hasn't found heaven or hell yet. Maybe there is no heaven and maybe Christ never got there either. We don't know! No one knows until he comes back again and until he does, it seems foolish to talk about all this judging. I don't smoke, drink or gamble, but I don't do it because I'm afraid someone may judge me. I do it because it's the right thing and healthy thing to do. We should do what is right. We should live holy lives. We should love and be kind to others. That's what Christianity is about. All the judging and going to hell stuff is a little far fetched, in my opinion. But maybe it scares people enough to believe all these crazy stories after all these years.
Name:bella •
Date: 03/06/07 2:42
A: Let's talk about faith. Any viewer that watches a 2 hr program and walks away convinced *without* researching for themselves is essentially convicted on faith. Without proof. You see, a film is much like the gospel narratives: it weaves a story that is geared towards one conclusion and everything in the story supports that conclusion and easily flows into it. People see DNA testing and they are wowed and convinced. They see patena tests on an ossuary that was never part of the find - don't believe me? Go and download the original findings on the Discovery channel. You will see that all the inscribed ossuaries, all the dimensions, and you will notice that the supposed missing one was NOT inscribed, outside of facade ornamentation. You will also see all the dimensions of each ossuary. You want to know why the James ossuary was connected by the film makers? Because James was quite an important figure, if there was a family tomb, he would have to be in it as well. It doesn't look good to have the James ossuary come from elsewhere and makes little sense in the case of a "family" tomb. There are just as many people blindly rejecting this on account of some spiritual belief as there are people accepting it by hearing key terms like DNA and testing and science and archeology.
Name:HeatherC0320 •
Date: 03/06/07 2:42
A: JSM
Interesting, indeed. Will need to do more research. Thank you for the lead.
Name:jsm •
Date: 03/06/07 2:50
A: Your welcome!
Name:Lynne57 •
Date: 03/06/07 2:57
A: "But just as we found out the world is not flat and the world was not created in 8 day..."
Ooh, great point!! I bet they didn't even think of that...nah, they did, they just dismissed it, as it's GOD's work, and he can do whatever he wants, LOL....that irrepressable GOD....what will he think of next, LOL....been MIA for a LONG time now....
Name:pat440 •
Date: 03/06/07 2:57
A: Hermit,
I don't understand your reference to "A Large River of water" and what it has to do with being born again. If you are making that statement in reference to baptism, well, baptism is a symbol of what happens to those who are "born again." Jesus was baptixed to be an example. He didn't need to be baptized. Simply because he didn't regeneration (to be saved). However you and I do. You charged me with not understanding what I quoted, however, you might want to read John 3 in its entirety. It is all about salvation for man. Nicodemus misunderstood the statement of the Lord of being born again as a physical act, not a spiritual act, or in other words, what is happening to a man's heart. Being born again is trusting Jesus-look at the context: John 3:15-20. The text says "believes in Him" or to trust in Him. You said we need to be good and loving, sorrry Hermit you and I aren't good enough. And by the way, you can't be reborn in spirit, alone. God must save you from your sins.
Name:jsm •
Date: 03/06/07 2:57
A: betty47
I have no fears, for I know where I'm going when I die, I have no fears because I trust in the lord Jesus Christ to lead me through my life. I have no fears for you going to hell because I trust in the holy spirit.
Matt. 7:7-11
7 Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
"The Hubble telescope has explored to the ends of the universe and hasn't found heaven or hell yet"
What a great scientist you'd make, because we cant see it... it must not exist. Maybe thats why gravity is still a theory.
Name:jsm •
Date: 03/06/07 3:01
A: Lynne57
"But just as we found out the world is not flat and the world was not created in 8 day..."
It was actually created in 1 day.
Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."
Name:KRS •
Date: 03/06/07 3:04
A: Hermit, check things out where I've posted it elsewhere. There is a lot of supposition about changes Christians have made to the New Testament, but the textual critical evidence doesn't support it out. We can actually be more sure of the wording of the New Testament than we can any other book in the ancient world. The copies of Luke and John from the second century are extremely close to the fourth century manuscripts that we possess. Check a few other threads for details, as I am weary of typing, but suffice it to say, the manuscript evidence doesn't bear out the conclusion for the kind of accumulation of errors present. Since most modern translations go back to the Greek, with the best text available (the exception being a few Catholic translations), the process of translations isn't going to bear that out.
Name:Lynne57 •
Date: 03/06/07 3:06
A: A: Lynne57
"But just as we found out the world is not flat and the world was not created in 8 day..."
It was actually created in 1 day.
Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."
I was quoting someone else, but thanks for clarifying. It makes the subject even more preposterous. My point was that the world was NOT created in 8 days, or even one. We know how old the earth is. Are you suggesting that GOD made the world old from the get-go. Righhhttt.......
Name:jsm •
Date: 03/06/07 3:10
A: Lynne57
Since its "proven" to be old, do you mind proving it to me. And don't mind being to technical, like I said earlier on the thread I hold two Ph.D's so it wont be over my head. Then if you'd like I could submit my evidence for it being young.
Name:KRS •
Date: 03/06/07 3:16
A: Hermit, by the way, most of my study is from the Greek New Testament, so I don't have to worry about translational errors. Also, as for the Son of Man, its probably a reference to Daniel 7:14, a messianic title that some Jewish leaders, apparantely considered divine on the basis of Caiphas reaction in Mark 14:63 (its sometimes hard to say what the Saducees believed in many particulars since they didn't survive the Jewish War).
Name:Lynne57 •
Date: 03/06/07 3:20
A: Ok, here's one;
http://pubs.usgs.gov-/gip/geotime/age.html
and- another;
http://www.talkorigins.org/fa-qs/faq-age-of-earth.html#howold
Here's- another;
http://www.allaboutcreati-on.org/how-old-is-the-earth.htm
an-d- another;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth
and still another;
http://www.ux1.eiu.edu/~cfjp-s/1400/solar_origin.html
sigh....
ht-tp://hubblesite.org/newscenter/archive-/releases/2002/10/layout/thumb/
I- could go on and on, but really, your mind will not be changed, and neither will mine. It's futile. I really have no need to discuss this with you. I could care less about YOUR credentials. Doesn't mean you have a rational mind, now does it.
Name:jsm •
Date: 03/06/07 3:20
A: Lynne57
One of my all time favorites is that all coal contains Carbon 14. All living organisms contain carbon 12 and carbon 14. Both being the same when the organism dies. Then the carbon 14 decays where as the carbon 12 doesn't because it is stable. 6 & 6. So we have a starting point in the carbon 12 and a clock in the carbon 14. Carbon 14 has a max life of 60,000. So if coal is million and millions of years old why would there be carbon 14 in them. And please don't say contamination. Because that could be a few cases, but not every single time.
Name:hermit •
Date: 03/06/07 3:23
A: KRS
I understand what you are saying and i do agree mostly, but there are the Gnostics, and other writings also... Yes your point is well taken, There is also the Jospeh of Arimethea bible kept by the Scottish Rite in scotland
this was a direct translation commisioned by Joespeh in 50 AD with what he had with him when he went to what is now Ireland, so some data is not there. But there is other work that is not in the current official bible.
and yes many like John do correlate to the texts from 400 AD this is true and i agree with you. but even then there had been some changes and people were being removed like the Gnostics.
There is so much we do not know and because of the wanton destruction of many writings by the Council of 900 AD we may never be able to piece it together.
Name:hermit •
Date: 03/06/07 3:24
A: KRS
and yes like you i can not type alot the nerves in my neck tend to mess with my hands so i understand
Name:jsm •
Date: 03/06/07 3:25
A: Lynne57
Uranium and thorium generate helium atoms as they decay to lead. A study published in the Journal of Geophysical Research showed that such helium produced in zircon crystals in deep, hot Precambrian granitic rock has not had time to escape. Though the rocks contain 1.5 billion years worth of nuclear decay products, newly-measured rates of helium loss from zircon show that the helium has been leaking for only 6,000 (± 2000) years. This is not only evidence for the youth of the earth, but also for episodes of greatly accelerated decay rates of long half-life nuclei within thousands of years ago, compressing radioisotope timescales enormously.
Name:hermit •
Date: 03/06/07 3:30
A: KRS
the Greek one is Very Very Good, alot less monkeying around with it for sure
i have that one and do use it alot to cross check other things.
Name:jsm •
Date: 03/06/07 3:31
A: Lynne57
DNA cannot last in the environment taking half lives for more then 10,000 years, yet intact strands of DNA have been recovered from fossils allegedly much older: Neanderthal bones, insects in amber, and even from dinosaur fossils.Bacteria allegedly 250 million years old apparently have been revived with no DNA damage. Soft tissue and blood cells have been found in dinosaur fossils. And as for fossils, I can send you the link to the publications of a Chinese scientist that created the very important first steps in the fossil process in the environment in 7 years.
Name:Lynne57 •
Date: 03/06/07 3:32
A: The earth isn't made of coal, it contains coal. Coal is also formed over time. It could still be forming today, somewhere in the earth.
I didn't realize that coal was used for determining the age of the earth.....(roll eyes) here's a quote from Wikipedia;
The greatest coal-forming time in geologic history was during the Carboniferous era (280 to 345 million years ago). Further large deposits of coal are found in the Permian, with lesser but still significant Triassic and Jurassic deposits, and minor Cretaceous and younger deposits of lignite. In the modern European lowlands of Holland and Germany considerable thicknesses of peat have accumulated, testifying to the ubiquity of the coal-forming process.
I'm done with this futile conversation. Have fun with your silly theory. Coal, LOL..................
A: jsm,, sorry , I do not believe in evolution either!! I do not believe unbelievable stories of any kind.
Name:hermit •
Date: 03/06/07 3:39
A: KRS said
A: Hermit, by the way, most of my study is from the Greek New Testament, so I don't have to worry about translational errors. Also, as for the Son of Man, its probably a reference to Daniel 7:14, a messianic title that some Jewish leaders, apparantely considered divine on the basis of Caiphas reaction in Mark 14:63 (its sometimes hard to say what the Saducees believed in many particulars since they didn't survive the Jewish War).
Yes i like this post , but in many palces he called himself alternately Son of Man and Son of G-d. It is in the closing paragraphs in Revelation when he calls himself the "Bright Morning Star".
From the Greek you must however work backwords to the Hebrew
because of the Kaballah implications in some of the things he had said
and the Numbers. Then look to the Book of Jonah which in Mark i think or Matthew he said that was the Code to what he was doing.. I think that was mentioned in the spcial also but i was getting something at the time
so did not hear it good thing i taped it.
In Hebrew Numerology he was using that Son of Man is 666 whereas Son of G-d is 777. So you must check the Hebrew because in things he said Context was very important, sometimes the Greek looses the context because they may not have a word as a direct translation to the Hebrew or Aramaic that Jesus used.
Name:betty47 •
Date: 03/06/07 3:47
A: Unfortunately, all of you who say evolution didn't happen are proving my point, I'm sorry to say. Many Christians have a hard time believing in science if it conflicts with their beliefs. Evolution happened. We evolved from monkeys or some similar ancestor and that's not in dispute at all. JSM, don't tell me you have a PHD in biochemistry and know more than everyone else. My father is an internationally known biochemist that made up the protocols that other biochemists follow today and he believes in evolution. But could God have created evolution? I'm willing to say that's possible. However, none of the learned scholars in this forum has presented any hard evidence to dispute this movie. You say there's not enough evidence in the movie, but you've provided no evidence at all on your side. Just because something is in the New Testament doesn't mean this movie is incorrect.
Name:jsm •
Date: 03/06/07 3:52
A: Lynne57
I didn't feel like typing it out cause it is late where I live. But if you'd like I'd give you another example. As for the primordial soup, the wonderful story of us crawling up out of the water. As you might know or might not know, but you can wiki it if you'd like. DNA is made up of amino acids. But as you put amino acids in water you watch as they break apart. It only took at week to shoot down that theory. Where as you know water is H20. The one oxygen atom in the water squeezes its way in between the amino acid chain and breaks them apart. This is known as the Law of Hydrolysis. The building blocks of life cannot live within water. Its necessary for life, but detrimental to the beginning of life. Thats where they changed their story again and said it wasn't in water but began on land and the early earth had no oxygen. But yet again it didn't take long to figure this one out where as without oxygen you wouldn't have an ozone layer and amino acids are very delicate and burn up without an ozone layer. So then they changed their story again and came up with the idea where the early earth was made of ammonia, methane gas, sulfur, etc... its a nice theory, the only problem with the theory is theres not one single bit of evidence that the earth ever was saturated with this. Not to mention that the oldest rocks known on the earth when studied show that the early earth had much more oxygen then today, as much as a million times more oxygen then today. Thats a huge problem as I stated earlier with the oxygen atom breaking apart amino acids.
Name:betty47 •
Date: 03/06/07 3:57
A: What??!! If oxygen breaks amino acids, we'd all be dead. Oxygen is needed in our cells and we all have amino acids in our cells.
Name:jsm •
Date: 03/06/07 4:08
A: betty47,
An enzyme (protease) that fermentative bacteria create break down proteins. This enzyme separates polypeptides into peptides or proteins into amino acids. This is what hydrolysis is, an h20 molecule squeezes in between the amino acid chain. Once the bond breaks it results in an H+ and the OH- Acid and Base.
2C3H7NO3 + O2 ---] 2HC2H3O2 + 3H2 + N2 + 2CO2
Name:jsm •
Date: 03/06/07 4:11
A: betty47,
Sorry its late, you might not have understood what I mean. I didn't mean destroys amino acids, but breaks the amino acid chain (protein) down into amino acids.
Name:KRS •
Date: 03/06/07 4:23
A: Hermit, thats not a problem, considering that the gnostics are a later sect, developing near the beginning of the second century. A lot of writers have tried to move this forward, but the major problem is that the first reference to something that is clearly gnostic in its writing is AD 85, and thats the book of First John. As for Jospeph of Arimathea going to Scotland, that tradition is so late, it has no validity at all. The reference to the council of 900 is greatly overstated.
Name:ddlugose •
Date: 03/06/07 4:26
A: Betty47 is mis-informed when it comes to christians. Most christians embrace science as it furthur proves belief. Much of what the bible claimed for years as faith has been held up recently by science and not disproven. Scientists commonly exclude scientific data that does not fit with the theory of the day. The fact remains is that Christians know that faith has nothing to do with proof. We dont need to prove some thing Jesus did 2000 years ago when he has done something for us today.
As for the talk of evolution mentioned, remember there are 2 types of evolution: Macro and Micro. Micro has scientifc proof up the ying yang but macro evolution has very little proof for the millions of years of skeletons that should be lying around. The fact is that most evolution theries have come from samples of part of one skeleton and not even a whole complete set of bones. Wouldn't science and statistics say there should be a minimum of hundreds or thousands of skeletons slowly transforming? It's funny, I (a Christian) don't believe in evolution because the science is weak.
We all have to be open thinkers. Not just the Christians.
Name:jsm •
Date: 03/06/07 4:29
A: betty47,
Or explain this to me, for things to grow and gain in complexity they must meat 4 requirements according to the second law of thermodynamics.
1.) There must be an object, lets say a flower
2.) Must be a source of energy (raw energy), lets say the sun
Now thats where about 90% of textbooks leave it, they say theres 2 requirements, when in actuality there is 4, but why are the other two left out? because evolution cannot explain it how it originated.
3.) Must have a mechanism to capture the raw energy
4.) Must have a mechanism to convert the raw energy into useful energy (photosynthesis).
Evolution cannot explain where 3 and 4 came from so they just leave it out of the textbooks, thats good science right there.
Name:jsm •
Date: 03/06/07 4:32
A: ddlugose
Well put, and were not the "logical" thinkers
Name:jsm •
Date: 03/06/07 4:38
A: betty47,
Not only are there problems with proteins breaking down, but DNA also. DNA is easily destroyed by ultraviolet light, alkylting agents, reactive oxygen species, and yes again water. Something so delicate forming and surviving on an "early earth full of methane, oxygen, sulfur, lighting etc..." please.... but then again... survival of the fittest.
Name:KRS •
Date: 03/06/07 4:40
A: I'd be careful about working back to the Hebrew (or rather Aramaic, since Jews didn't speak Aramaic at this time). While many of Jesus sermons were probably taught in Aramaic, we can't be sure that all of them were: remember most Jews in Galilee were truly bilingual, there are some inscriptions, and backtranslation can be problematic with extended material. Remember as well that the Gospels were originally written in Greek, and we are not sure how dynamic the gospel writers were, and how often they summarize a portion of a sermon. Additionally, its been my experience that when someone tries to reverse engineer a translation, and we can compare their product back to the original, they tend to be pretty far off.
As for Kabballah, its not really useful in scholarly work.
Name:betty47 •
Date: 03/06/07 4:43
A: JSM,
Thanks, but you're confusing evolution and biology and clearly trying to confuse anyone who refutes you. What's the latest textbook you've seen? My son is in 7th grade. His books clearly explain about capturing raw energy and converting it.
Name:betty47 •
Date: 03/06/07 4:47
A: JSM,
You need to get some current textbooks because things have changed a bit in 2000 years! You have some catching up to do.
Name:jsm •
Date: 03/06/07 4:55
A: betty47
Then by all means... explain to me how there (by gradual beneficial mutations) comes about a mechanism that captures raw energy. Since your sons 7th grade text book explains this apparently. I know you cannot explain it, and thats why I'm saying... you have faith that it did happen by gradual beneficial mutations through natural selection. Its faith because there is not one single bit of evidence that it was an evolved trait and you cannot explain how it happened. And faith is religion. So why is my religion crazy, but your religion not? There is a lot of things I cannot explain with my religion, but I trust god, and you seem to want to condemned us Christians because we do not have every single answer and say things like... "just have faith". And thats crazy, but thats the same thing your scientists tell you. Just have faith. Give it enough time and anything can happen.
Name:ddlugose •
Date: 03/06/07 5:04
A: Christian: Where did the first peice of matter that started it all come from?
Evolutionist: I dont know exactly. It was just there.
Christian: OK so lets just say it is God.
Evolutionist: I cant believe in God.
Christian: But you can believe something came from nothing?
Name:samepstein •
Date: 03/06/07 5:05
A: I couldn't agree more. I absolutely love being a Catholic but I also have a brain and I know that it is far from perfect. If he is in the tomb then we should be excited about this. His bones may be here but that doesn't mean that he isn't in heaven. Like you said, his words are still the same and what is wrong with learning more about him? He is the son of God but he was also human. I want to know more about him and I wish others felt the same.
Name:jsm •
Date: 03/06/07 5:13
A: samepstein
The problem with there being bones would be that it contradicts the bible. Because it states that his tomb was empty, and that he also appeared later in human form with holes in his hands. So it is not possible that he left his body behind. Like the bible says. In the end times there will be many false Christs.
Not physically his son, he was part of the trinity. Their 3 different beings, but the same person. God the Father, God the son, and the Holy Ghost.
John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
John 1:14 "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."
The Word was with God, and the Word was God. Explaining that Jesus is with God, at the same time as being God. Kind of a hard concept to understand how their two different beings, but the same. Its like having two oranges and saying theres two oranges, but theres also 1 orange.
Name:KRS •
Date: 03/06/07 5:19
A: Betty as for errors in the film, first, remember that the burden of proof is on the producers to prove they have something that is actually a possibility, the burden is not on those who dissent from this new theory/evidence. In general, as a scholar, I would suggest that they have not met that burden of truth.
I've cited these elsewhere on the site if you need a fuller reference:
1. There is no historically reliable evidence to support the identification of Mariamne with Mary Magdalene. The method they use is, at best, circular, which means that their statistical numbers are off.
2. The archeologist who excavated the site has now gone on record and said the James ossuary is not the tenth ossuary, the dimensions are wrong, and that ossuary did not have an inscriptions. That guy notes that it was on his list, indicating he has notes on what was present.
- both of these significantly impact the statisical argument that the docudrama makes. (Incidentally, the archeologist has referred to the theory as non-sense).
3. Cherrypicking. They choose material in the NT that supports their case, but ignore material that creates problems for it: this is poor technique.
4. The spelling of Yose is not as rare as they seem to imply, its seen in several inscriptions in Galilee, and may have been a popular alternative form of Yoseph. It is found in Mark 15:40 (incidentally, this is in reference to a family that ha s three of the names in close proximity that are also in Jesus' family - Yoses, Mary, and James, and the relationships are identical to the family of Jesus).
5. One problem with the statistics, though I'm careful as I'm not a mathmatician. There data pool is built on a questionable method. They seem to have operated on the basis of inscriptions and documents from the time, this is probably going to create a skew in the data, making names common in wealthy familes seem far more common than they actually were.
6. Again, a problem with the stats: the method they indicate that they are using doesn't take the tendency to use family names into account, and this was a practice among first century Jews. It is far more likely, for instance, that a Galilian whose name was Jesus, who had a father Joseph would have a brother named Yoses than a someone named Jesus who had a father named James.
7. Final stats argument: they don't seem to have taken region into account, it is possible that some names, or forms of names may have been popular in the Jewish community outside of Jerusalem than it might be in the totality of the data pool
8. They are relying on some questionable translations of some of the ossuaries (particularly that of Miramne e Mara).
9. In general, the technique is sloppy.
Now, the following are related to the NT, but bear in mind, the New Testament is the only first century source that documents early Christianity. I've argued the stats for the Gospels elsewhere.
10. Jesus was from a poor family in Galilee, the NT only indicates that James and Mary might have lived in Jerusalem. As a poor family, they would likely have had trouble affording this tomb.
11. This requires that the disciples themselves lied about the resurrection and ascension, since the NT cites it as bodily. This means that many of these men were killed by the Romans for something that they knew wasn't true.
12. Finally, there is the general reliability for the gospels, particularly for Luke's credentials as a historian, also found on other posts. For someone who wrote a historical work that archeologists have noted for his attention to minute details might have overlooked something like this is absurd. The level, and quality of the evidence they have offered are insufficient to dismiss the gospel accounts.
Anyway, I may be back in a few days, but I need sleep.
Name:Daddyo •
Date: 03/06/07 5:38
A: I very much admire those who truly do have faith in something higher. Many religions provide guidelines, hope, and community to those who want it, and that in itself is a human need in most everyone. In that regard I do not like remarking against others beliefs in almost all cases.
Referring to the ancient science vs. religion debate, in my own opinion the reason why a fair percentage of believers so vehemently defend their beliefs is because they are deathly afraid of burning in hell for thinking anything contrary to their teachings. It is natural to be scared of things we don't understand or are told to believe as consequences, in a way a child is afraid of the boogyman under his bed after seeing a scary movie. And nobody blames you for this, and I think we can all sympathize with each other on this point. As we grow & educate oneself in all areas, you see first-hand that there is no boogyman, nor magic, nor have we ever beyond a reasonable doubt experienced such things. Once you've cleared your head of fear, you'll be free...unfortunately many people absolutely require guidelines & fear, to keep them in-check. All my opinion and I'm entitled to it, as are you.
I don't think the makers of this film have a particular bias to/from faith, and they don't care to show one in the way they presented the material. It's too easy for us to show our biases, otherwise why else would all these religions be around to show us the way. I think the filmakers have a heck of a lot of guts for doing this, probably most all of us wouldn't do it due to their "fear". I admire them for the work they've done.
I find the notion fascinating that there may be physical proof of Jesus, and the power he had over people in an attempt to right the misguided world. If this notion is true, AND he were purely human, atheists would likely be stunned and have great admiration for him & his followers. Believe it or not this movie could create a sort of new followership, with all the positive attributes of Christianity.
To sum it up, there's a need for religion in this world, as well as science, but they will butt heads for centuries to come, since we haven't got a perfect solution yet to the problems of the people. But please listen & keep an open mind & not rationalization when you watch the movie. Let yourself be the judge, not just a book. And also note that no report is 100% accurate esp. when dealing with statistics of many variables. They've reported their findings, which always should be refined & debated. I think the statistical manner in which much of it was presented is very appropriate and an unbiased attempt of showing results.
Please keep the accusations & name calling out of these topics, it completely disqualifies oneself as a rational thinker, faith or not, and one's completely out of the discussion loop when committed. Thanks for reading, hope it added something...
Name:sgtdmski •
Date: 03/06/07 8:30
A: It is amazing that Christianity spread as rapidly as it did, especially considering that the Apostles had all fled and denied Jesus. Yet following his crucifixation something happened to bring them back, something that made them risk their lives to preach his message.
Jesus brother James was not an Apostle, yet he was stoned to death for his belief in his borther as the messiah. Simon was crucified fro his belief. All either would have to have done to live was admit the truth, that Christ was a fake, yet neither did, perhaps it was because they knew the treal truth.
To this day that remains the hardest question for non-believers to answer, if the resurrection was not true, why would the followers die for a lie?
Name:betty47 •
Date: 03/06/07 11:56
A: KSM,
Thank you for your answer. But a quick follow-up... everyone says Jesus was too poor to afford a tomb, but Mary Magdalene's family could have afforded a tomb and Joseph of Arimathea is widely accepted as providing the tomb where Jesus was laid. Is this incorrect?
Name:NormDoering •
Date: 03/06/07 11:59
A: betty47 wrote:
"Christians have always been knocking true science for thousands of years... "
Well, there was Gallileo whom the pope put under house arrest, and today there are Creationists and Intelligent Design advocates. And I suppose if Christians knew about what's going on in neuroscience these days they'd have problems believing it.
betty47 wrote:
"If someone came along today in 2007 and said they walked on water , healed the sick , raised the dead and were born of a virgin..."
They do, in India.
Sathya Sai Baba claims to have been born of a virgin, walked on water, raised the dead, flew without the aid of technology, materialized objects, read minds and foretold the future.
According to Sam Harris:
"He has literally millions of followers, many of them educated westerners. You can watch some of his "miracles" on YouTube, performed before credulous throngs of spiritually hungry souls. Prepare to be underwhelmed. And yet, you are suggesting that tales of similar events emerging from the pre-scientific religious milieu of the 1st century Roman Empire (decades after their supposed occurrence) are especially credible."
Name:NormDoering •
Date: 03/06/07 12:03
A: betty47 wrote:
"Thank goodness there is no Spanish Inquisition in 2007, because they probably are secretly hoping to burn someone at the stake over this."
If they had treaded on Islam like they treaded on Christianity they would, like Salman Rushdie and Ayaan Hirsi Ali, need body guards.
http://normdoering.blogspot.com
Name:betty47 •
Date: 03/06/07 12:40
A: "If they had treaded on Islam like they treaded on Christianity they would, like Salman Rushdie and Ayaan Hirsi Ali, need body guards."
Well first of all Salman Rushdie does need a body guard, but
Norm, this is a cop out. I am a Catholic. But I understand the pent up frustration people have with Christians. After all, we knock on people's doors endlessly day after day telling them they will burn in hell if they don't follow our savior. We harass students in college cafeterias around the world hour by hour, day by day saying they must follow Jesus. We converted whole Indian tribes and civilizations in the name of Jesus. We send missionaries to the far corners of the earth trying to convert people. Our churches send out mailings every week to people of other religions about our savior. It's endless as we try to spread the good news. I think it's the Christians doing the treading on other religioins, and then we turn around and say people are attacking Christianity??!! What nerve!!Please!!! I guess we can dish it out, but we sure can't take it.
Name:pat440 •
Date: 03/06/07 14:32
A: Betty47
How would you interpret this verse: Matthew 28:18-20--"All power and authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me, Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the the end of the age." --Jesus Christ
My point is this. For some people who call themselves "Christians", it's nothing more than mere religion, for example, going to church, praying, giving to charity, etc. That is fine, and that is a person's own perogative. However for others who are Christians, and you may find this hard to believe, but there are many of us who actually do love the Lord Jesus Christ, and to the best of our ability through the struggle of sin, try to follow Him, and serve Him by obeying His commandments which are found, yep, you guessed it, in the Bible, the Word of God. And we do this out of love for Jesus. See, you say we are basically attacking others by sharing the good news of Jesus Christ. But how are you attacking someone when you care about their soul? You may not believe in hell, and that's your opinion, but Jesus taught there is a hell, and said there would be much weeping, and gnashing of teeth, a place of eternal torment. But I don't want anyone to follow Jesus out of fear of going to hell more than I want them to experience the joy of heaven and living forever worshipping God. Jesus gave the standard, not us.
And then the question is this: If there is no hell, and no heaven, then why on earth, did Jesus have to die as prophesied He would in the Old Testament? Could you answer that question for me?
Is it ok if Christians express what they believe and defend what they believe in?
Do you defend the things you believe in as is, in the case of evolution?
Name:NormDoering •
Date: 03/06/07 15:57
A: betty47 wrote:
"Norm, this is a cop out. I am a Catholic. But I understand the pent up frustration people have with Christians. After all, we knock on people's doors endlessly day after day telling them they will burn in hell if they don't follow our savior."
Well, I certainly would suggest you stop knocking on people's doors - that's dangerous.
But it's no cop out to say, as I an atheist do, that it is not Christianity alone that is the problem - it is religion - all religion. Remember, the Romans used Christians as lion food because they wouldn't honor Roman gods. Those Christians were accused of a crime called "atheism." And before Christianity existed Socrates, who was also accused of atheism, was forced to drink hemlock. And Jesus himself, if he existed, apparently was considered a threat to the local priesthood - namely Caiaphas.
Christians used to be a threat -- but they too got their asses kicked during something called the French and American revolutions. People died so that little phrase in our constitution about freedom of religion could get in.
Yes, the party of Ann Coulter is a threat to our freedom, but that's not the same as modern Christianity - that's just what Ann Coulter wants Christians to think.
http://normdoering.blogspot.com/
Name:jsm •
Date: 03/06/07 15:59
A: betty47,
Its interesting to see that you name yourself as a Christian. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't Catholics believe you make it to heaven by doing "good works" and not by Jesus. I notice in Catholic church's they go a lot by the old testament. Which is the need for the whole confessions ordeal, that only the holy of holy can talk to God. But I was always amazed that Catholics just couldn't understand the significance of when Jesus was talking about destroying the temple and rebuilding it in 3 days. Remember the response? It took us 46 years to build it, how are you going to do it in 3 days. Remember it being destroyed when Jesus died? And 3 days later he rebuilt it when he came back. Signifying he was the new temple. So I never understood why Catholics don't understand that. Anybody can talk to god cause the cloth in the tabernacle had been ripped down.
Name:betty47 •
Date: 03/06/07 16:11
A: JSM, Well to each his own. I suppose Jews will say they never understood anything about Christianity. Belief is belief as you've stated several times on this site yourself.
Norm: Thanks for this light hearted comment. I enjoyed it.
"Yes, the party of Ann Coulter is a threat to our freedom, but that's not the same as modern Christianity - that's just what Ann Coulter wants Christians to think."
Name:KRS •
Date: 03/06/07 17:44
A: Betty
We don't know anything about the Mariamne in this special - the identification with the Magdalene is tenious as best (and including it in their statisical model is at best deceptive). We know less about the historic Mary Magdalene, because the late second and third century fathers kept getting her mixed up with Lazarus' sister Mary, the prostitute who washed Jesus feet, etc. They would have to be extremely wealthy to build a tomb such as this and give it to someone else. Any such line of thought here is, at best, supposition without evidence to support it.
As for Joseph of Arimathea, they are basically suggesting that the disciples stole the body from Joseph's tomb (violating the Sabbath in the process), and moved it to this one; nor did Joseph give Jesus a tomb, he buried him in his own tomb as if he was a member of Joseph's family.
Name:KRS •
Date: 03/06/07 18:00
A: Betty,
I forgot a few errors, due to exhaustion
1. They claimed there is no archeological evidence for Peter's death in Rome, actually this is false. There is a crypt with a tomb marker from the early second century (the crypt is often dated to the late first). The is a very early Christian document noting that the disciples buried Peter, and marked his grave with a plain stone (so that the Roman's would not descrate the grave, or realize it was a place where Christians might gather). During a break in the persecution, he notes, they raised a pillar on the site instead. The site matches this description, and corroborates with what we know of Nero's persecution from Tacitus (who was a Roman senator and used records for his history that are no longer extant).
2. There is a major problem with the grave robbery story that they haven't dealt with well. We have a few Jews who somehow stole the body out from under the noses of a group of trained guards, or worse, all four guards fell asleep at the same time and the disciples were able to roll the stone cover on the tomb away from the door without any of them waking up.
3. The story of the Resurrection was known pretty early by the authorities, if Jesus family owned a tomb, and if the disciples buried him there, that would probably be one the first places they would have looked; if there was any authenticity to this tomb, there would be some record of this, at the least in some of the Jewish literature, in the history of Suetonius and Tacitus (Both of whom were rather infriendly towards Christian). or Josephus (since the story of someone faking a resurrection was the type of thing he loved to document), etc.
Name:KRS •
Date: 03/06/07 18:47
A: Norma
There is no secret plan or desire by any Christians to burn anyone at the stake, etc., I assure you. I can't speak for Roman Catholics, but as a Protestant, I see the treatment of Galileo, etc., as reasons for accepting the Bible the sole source of authority in matters of faith. You might be interested to know that the idea of the earth as the center of the universe did not come from the Bible itself, it came about when the Catholic Church adopted a lot of Aristotle's principles as dogma, largely under Thomas Aquinas in the twelfth centuries.
Nor are Christians desiring to take over the government, as a Baptist I believe in the separation of Church and State. I vote my convictions, as all Americans should vote their convictions, anything else is dishonesty. Democracy of any shape encourages something that dictatorships and monarchy's supress: the need to debate the facts, and everyone has a right under law not only to their opinions but the right to convince others that their opinions are right. Christians are to be good citizens according to Paul, and in a Republic, part of being a good citizen is involvement in the political process, making your views known, etc. Of course there is a lunatic fringe, but then there always is.
If you want to understand Christian political practice these days, start with this. Everyone is religious, because religion is a catagory of questions not a catagory of answers. The question of whether God exists or not is a question of religion, and answers in either the affirmative or the negative is a statement of religious belief. Many of the questions facing the American people are questions of religion, and some Christians, myself included, feel that the government is forcing a policy of religious Secularism (commonly called secular humanism) on the country and forcing Christians to hide or abandon their faith. Worse still, they are using the public schools as a place to teach this faith to children, and the separation of Church and State forbids this. We aren't trying to force others to be Christians, but we also don't want the state imposing the dogma of other religions onto us.
Name:betty47 •
Date: 03/06/07 20:02
A: KRS (Sorry I got it wrong before) and everyone else,
I appreciate all the info you've given to my questions. I certainly have found it to be a wonderful discussion even if I don't agree with many of the opinions expressed. Nonetheless, I hope people continue to investigate this issue because it is one of the most fascinating stories yet that I've seen. It's addicting. I certainly have gotten a new appreciation for Simcha and his work and hope to watch his other shows as well. I have to get back to work so to all, thanks again.
Name:slyfoxx •
Date: 03/06/07 21:20
A: So much of everyones arguements are from scripture......I don't understand that. You are quoting something you don't even know is from your beloved God. what ever happened to answering a question or debating with your own thoughts. You try to answer valid questions with quotes from the bible saying Jesus says this so its true. Whatever happened to using common sense?? Instead of exclaiming God says this and Jesus says that.....what about what you say and think??? Have we become such herds of sheep that we can't form our own thought processes??? When the bible is up for debate using scripture to make the argument is kind of redundant.
Name:KRS •
Date: 03/07/07 3:23
A: Actually, sly, when the Bible is up for debate, you have to quote it to make sure the debate is actually dealing with facts. When it comes to this issue, the gospels are the only first century evidence that we have about the life of Christ itself, and so there is no way to debate the issues out side of it. SImply saying what we think leads people away from objectivity, which is imperative.
Check elsewhere, however, to see what I've already typed out on the reliability of the gospel accounts, and the accuracy of the copies. The evidence in support of the gospels is far greater than most of the non-Christians on this site seem to realize.
Name:jsm •
Date: 03/07/07 4:59
A: Slyfoxx,
"So much of everyones arguments are from scripture"
Christians would agree that it is the divine word of god but to non Christians it is viewed as just a history book. Either way nothing has ever been disproved in the bible. So after thousands of years it has withstood the scrutiny of skeptics so I would say it is pretty accurate whether you believe its gods word... or just a history book.
Name:Red •
Date: 03/07/07 7:13
A: Slyfox,
The answer to your question lies in the books itself.
'if any man wish to follow me , let him DENY HIMSELF and take up his cross'.
Name:samepstein •
Date: 03/07/07 17:20
A: A: jsm
Scripture can be interpreted in many different ways. You quote the following scripture:
John 1:14 "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."
It says that the word became flesh. OK, so flesh turns to bones after death. The soul goes to heaven. This is just an example of how the bible can be interpreted and that is the problem with using scripture in a debate. Human beings wrote the New Testament and human beings are not perfect. We cannot just reference the bible especially if additional evidence might be out there. We have to look at the entire picture.
Name:NormDoering •
Date: 03/07/07 18:18
A: I'm doing a series on how religion and science conflict:
Religion's war on science, Part 1 - at my blog:
http://normdoering.blogspot.com/
Name:jsm •
Date: 03/08/07 0:45
A: samepstein
Sure you can interpret that verse that way. But do you mind sharing your interpretation on why the tomb was empty and Jesus appeared later with holes in his hands? Even if you want to say the bible was a "history" book. Then this is a historical record that people witnessed this.
Name:sadinoel •
Date: 03/08/07 0:50
A: Um get the facts sir. It's not Christians arguing this.
The AIA argues it! An organization of archaeologists from all different backgrounds.
In fact some of the most credible people that point out the flaws of this "finding" are JEWS.
Lol do some research before you go spouting off.
Name:sadinoel •
Date: 03/08/07 0:52
A: and while you are at the Christian bashing fest dont forget to include every other religion on the planet since they all have major issues with science.
oh but wait you dont have an agenda vs them i guess.
Name:Red •
Date: 03/08/07 1:37
A: They didnt find Budda, Merlin, or ali-baba, they found who could be the Jesus of bible fame. are we supposed to feel guilty for beliving this??
Is the act of believing this christain bashing??
This is not christain bashing in the least. it may be christain QUESTIONING, but not bashing. Is your beleif byond question?
Is questioning someone's claim equal to questioning god??
If in your mind it is, then start telling yourself youll feel better when we are in Hell.
Name:jsm •
Date: 03/08/07 5:20
A: Red,
"are we supposed to feel guilty for beliving this??"
Matthew 24:23-25
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Name:chemba •
Date: 03/08/07 6:58
A: All scriptures like Bible have got the important details of life, God and universe. But unfortunately, the readers and followers are misunderstanding the real meaning of the scriptural words. The problem is in the scriptures itself. The authors did not directly reveal the details of the above. They have hidden something and openly revealed other things. They have purposefully hidden the real things. Their intention is that the true knowledge should reach the mentally matured people.
For example, sex is important things in our life. Even those who oppose it are the product of their parent’s sex. If there was no sex in them, they could not come over here and oppose it. At the same time the sex is not the subject to talk in front of all, particularly children. In the same way the true knowledge of life, god and universe was revealed by our ancient scholars through scriptures.
The followers of religions misunderstood the name of God itself is as God. It is a simple or main character of the details by which the true knowledge was given to understand. This is the main reason for the present conflicts among the different followers of religions. They are fighting with simple sign-board not the destination.
If we can understand the real meaning of the scriptural words then we need not understand anything in the world.
Name:samepstein •
Date: 03/08/07 21:38
A: A: jsm
The fact that the witnesses say he had holes in his hands is up for debate. He is possible that he was most nailed through his wrists.
We can't say the bible is a witness b/c each gospel is "according to." It is quite possible that the authors dramatized the story to spread their beliefs.
These are simply possiblities. Who knows, maybe the bible is 100% accurate but we can't say that for sure. This is why my priest always told me to read the bible with an open mind and not to take things literally. Details vary from gospel to gospel. Yes, my priest. He is a wonderful man who has studied theology for many, many years.
Name:guahould •
Date: 03/08/07 23:17
A: hey ddlagose: how bout this ,,,,,,,,
Christian: [we all came from noah]
Evolutionist: (atheist?): [how did we all "evolve" into so many different types of peoples and animals?]
Christians: [well God allowed a really fast kind of "evolution" to take place]
Evolutionist (atheist?): [I thot that you did not believe in "evolution"?]
Christian: [well God just performed a miracle of sorts i suppose]
Evolutionist (atheist?): [why are we still not "evolving" at these extrememly quick rates still to this day]
Christians [hmmm,, I dunno,, shut up,, you cant prove God does not exist and did not do these things ,, so stop bothering me with your logical thoughts please!!!!!]
Does this sound basically right? Man it is embarrassing to read some of this stuff!!! How any one thinks that they can truly say how it really was is nuts!!! All of the testements and scriptures could have been written by madmen, the only things they prove is that some had the ability to use their imagination back then. The fact that anybody would still believe something because God said so ,, c`mon ,, ;listen to that , it is rediculous!!!!!
Name:samepstein •
Date: 03/09/07 3:36
A: I found this under a different discussion but I think it makes a lot of sense and helps to sum up what I have been trying to say. To the original writer...I hope you don't mind.
The documentary has left many stones unturned (there's nothing like suspense.... If you wanna sell something). In spite of this cynical approach, do I think there's a distinct possibility, that this might be what they claim it to be (more or less). IMO, does it not alter the message of Jesus (since I doubt the Bible as being a precise historical document (to many inconsistencies)). The find (if the conclusions are correct) does not rule out ascension nor divinity. It just tells us, that someone has misunderstood the details of the message all together, but captured the great lines.
Name:KRS •
Date: 03/09/07 5:44
A: JSM, I know you have a science background, I'm trying to recalculate the stats to eliminate the problem of their use of Miriamne in their calculations. I've worked using their assumptions and formula so far, but I'm starting to work on a second alteration to reflect the number of families in and around Jerusalem.
I'm not a mathmatician, however, and I haven't done anything with stats since High School, so I would like a double check to make sure I have re-worked the material correctly. Its on the thread "Recalculating the Stats."
Name:samepstein •
Date: 03/09/07 17:29
A: JSM: For the record I would not call the bible a "history book." It is a holy book but some of its stories may have been left out. I am a Roman Catholic but I believe my church possibly left a few stories out. I also believe it is up to interpretation.
Name:slyfoxx •
Date: 03/09/07 17:43
A: jsm....hasn't been disproved but hasn't been proved either.
Name:slyfoxx •
Date: 03/09/07 17:45
A: Red....my answer YOU may think lies in the book but to me its just you quoting nothing to get around answering a question. Whether that is or isn't the case....thats the way it appears.
Name:Kenc •
Date: 03/09/07 18:17
A: betty47,
Your critique of Christianity is, as most are, filled with false "facts" that prove that you really don't know what you are talking about. Galileo was brought before the Inquisition because he published a book that was based on the Copernican view of the solar system which was that the earth revolved around the sun (heliocentric). The most widely accepted view which was held not only by the church but the majority of scientists was that the sun revolved around the earth (geocentric). It had nothing to do with the earth being flat.
What should be called into question is when people call something science that is not really science. There is nothing scientific about the findings in this show, it is all conjecture. Ted Koppel rightly went after many of the false "facts" that were presented in the discussion afterward. If this were real science, there would have been scholarly papers published based on the work which could have been examined by the scientific community and evaluated on its merits. That didn't happen.
A perfect example of the poor science involved is the conclusion draw by the authors that Mariamne must be Mary Magdalene. Nowhere in any writings is there an example of Mary Magdalene being called Mariamne. The writing that Simcha sites is the Gospel of Philip which is a hilarious work of fiction written around the 4th century AD. It has zero credibility. It uses the name Mariamne but not to refer to Mary Magdalene but to Philip's sister. The conclusion drawn that this must be the ossuary of Mary Magdalene holds no water whatsoever. There is nothing that suggests it historically, scientifically, or logically.
What Christians object to is the irresponsible claims by people that present things as science when they are obviously fiction. This is a perfect example of such a claim.
Name:hbic3 •
Date: 03/09/07 18:46
A: Well, that's quite a categorical statement. Christians ALAWAYS knock science. Ain't that about something?
If you needed brain surgery and a brain surgeon said to you, "I'm a Christian", would you still let him or her do the surgery? After all, as a Christian, he knocks his own profession, right?
Here's what I'm not understanding about your post. You say "Christians" as if it is a group that you do not belong to. Yet, you are upset that "Christians" are not believing that this is the true tomb of Jesus, as if you believe in Jesus. Now, if you believe in Jesus, wouldn't that make you a Christian? I don't know, maybe you are Muslim and are hoping like so many of us Christians for the final proof that Jesus did exist so the nay-sayers can put it in their pipes and smoke it. Or are you one of those Catholics who doesn't think you're a Christian(which alway blows my mind to hear a Catholic say they aren't a Christian, but a Catholic... It's like DUH! What do you think a Catholic is?)
Patricia,
Too much documentation to say otherwise? What documentation is that, Pray tell? The Gospels? Hardly documentation since not one single book was written by anyone who actually knew Jesus personally, or were even written while Jesus still lived. Other than the New Testiment, then, what other documentation is there? There are no surviving unbiased records of his birth, or death, having paid taxes, etc... In fact, records known to date from the precise time and places of Jesus' life and death make absolutely no mention of him. So, in fact the only documentation we have is the 4 Canonical Gospels, which often completely contradict each other. For example: You tell me how Jesus can be crucified the day before Passover in one Gospel, and crucified the day after Passover in another. They can't possibly both be true. So how can these books be called Gospels? I'm not saying it didn't happen, I'm just saying that your statement "too much documentation" is far from factual.
I personally would love to see this work it's self out and be undeniable proof of Jesus existance, and see it lead to more undeniable proof that everything we were ever taught about Jesus birth, life and death, were absolutely true. I would love that. I think the majority of Christians and Muslims the world over would like nothing better than to have it all proven to those who don't believe. But the reason why we want the proof so badly, and why television shows and books like the Da Vinci code are so popular to people is because we don't have ANY irrefutable documentation at all. People are seeing the "signs" , if you will... We are living in apocalyptic times, exactly like that in which Jesus lived, and everyone is frightened that the end times are near, and judgement day will come, and we will find out, each of us, that we believed wrongly. So we are looking for some kind of proof, something that will tell us we are on the right path. Something that will give us hope. Because as things are right now, with the crisis in the Catholic church, the wars going on in and around the Holy Land, oppresive governments and high taxes reminiscent of the Roman Empire, we see history repeating it'self as it always does. We are all, even if just passively, eschatologist right now.
Name:samepstein •
Date: 03/09/07 21:40
A: It blows my mind that Protestants often do not consider Catholics Christians. I have never heard it the other way around. My husband and I were watching a cable news program and the anchor put us in a different category. It's upsetting to say the least. We are the original "established" Christian religion (although that may or may not be completely accurate b/c we do not have the entire story...and we have made so many mistakes throughout the years). Jesus is probably quite frustrated with his followers b/c we can't get along with each other let alone people of other religions like. It's so sad.
So many people criticize this movie b/c they think it contradicts the literal words of the bible. My husband is Jewish and for the first time (after watching the film and attending mass with me) he acknowledged that Jesus as the son of God might be accurate. They have possible evidence of his physical existence and he finds it hard to believe that someone would suffer like he did if he was a fraud. The only reason I am writing about this is to show that the movie might not be "all bad." While Christians bicker over literal details people of other faiths may take an interest in his life and his teachings.
Name:lightwoman •
Date: 03/09/07 22:08
A: samepstein, I agree with you that the film is not "all bad."
While it may seem on the surface that belief systems and passions are colliding, amidst all these chaotic collisions is the potential for much good to arise (resurrect?) once the fallout has settled.
Think about it. The Lord/Source/Universe often works in very mysterious and wonderful ways that we just can't envision yet.... :-)
Name:lightwoman •
Date: 03/09/07 22:20
A: Quick adendum to my above post:
Reminds me of the lyrics from the Five for Fighting song "World," which I love:
What kind of world do you want?
Think Anything
Let's start at the start
Build a masterpiece
Be careful what you wish for
History starts now...
Reality in this 3D world starts with our thoughts, or consciousness. Some of the greatest inventions and insights in all history came from men/people who expanded their consciousness to higher realms, to embrace concepts beyond what was "known" within mass consciousness.
Whatever we can envision, we can manifest, with faith and effort. Jesus taught us that and demonstrated it. For we are creators, created by and one with THE CREATOR. We create our reality, so let's create a better world. Raise consciousness. Start now....
Name:samepstein •
Date: 03/09/07 22:37
A: You make great points. Very positive!
Name:BMillikan •
Date: 03/16/07 18:44
A: That seems impossible being a scientist/mathematician and a Christian at the same time.
Name:jsm •
Date: 03/16/07 19:08
A: BMillikan,
I'm a scientist, a mathematician, and a Christian. Theres nothing impossible about it. God created all the laws of physics, chemistry, biology, etc... and I'm here to study it, and glorify him in the process just like the bible tells you to do.
Name:BMillikan •
Date: 03/16/07 19:14
A: jsm,
I was responding to the claim by "betty47" that "Christians always knock science". I am also a scientist, mathematician and a Christian. I guess my post was confusing. I meant that because I'm a Christian and a scientist/mathematician, I cannot "knock science". I believe a lot in true scientific discovery. But, there have been so many "experts" now and in the past that press their beliefs on others using, so-called, science.
Name:jsm •
Date: 03/16/07 19:16
A: BMillikan,
Have you read into any of the RATE program? http://www.icr.org/rate/
Name:BMillikan •
Date: 03/16/07 19:26
A: jsm,
No, I haven't. But I'll look into it.
Name:BMillikan •
Date: 03/22/07 15:24
A: betty47:
That's because true science has always proven us to be right. Even scientists now are starting to examine Creation Theory which we've believed for centuries.
BMillikan
Name:Xcavate •
Date: 03/25/07 5:18
A: I don't and I am Christian, I love science. It is proving the Bible right.
Name:Eagle •
Date: 03/25/07 15:07
A: Betty47: Surprise. The world WAS created in 6 days. God rested on the 7th. But a day was not 24 hours. Could not have been because the sun wasn't created until day 4. See Gen 1:14 "And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years." And Genesis goes on to describe the sun and moon being set to give light to the Earth on the 4th day. So you see, God's day must have been measured in some other time -- but not our Earth time. So the Bible is right and science is right because the truth really is out there. Read Genesis again and think in terms of a "universe day". In Genesis 1:1, translate "heaven and earth" as "universe".
Name:jsm •
Date: 03/26/07 5:29
A: Eagle,
"But a day was not 24 hours. Could not have been because the sun wasn't created until day 4."
If your talking in present time this might be true, but the bible was written in the past tense. Since it was written in the past tense there was already time and a calender. The book of Genesis was written in Hebrew by Moses under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. In Genesis 1:1 he used the Hebrew word "yom" to describe the length of time, which is translated to our English "day". Yom can have several meanings just like our word day. To find the meaning, you have to look at the context surrounding the word. Just like our word "day" can mean, 24 hours, a time in the future, a year (365 days), etc... so when you look at the original Hebrew text you have to look at the context surrounding it, which there is a number. On the "third day", on the "fourth day, etc... so when these numbers are found next to the word yom, it is meant to be read as a 24 hour day. And not to mention every other time yom is used in the bible, it is meant to mean 24 hours.
There are lots of people that try to change what God actually meant in the bible, but there is no substitute. Just like the people that believe God used evolution and created the earth millions of years ago, and when man finally came around then said his creation was "very good" when there was millions of years of death and decay. The only version that works is the version god meant for us to read, six literal days.
Name:Elizabeth •
Date: 03/27/07 1:02
A: Yet in the Bible, it is written that God does not consider the length of a day as mankind. So do you think what God means is up for debate
with mankind? God gave instruction to His chosen- not the other way around. And what He meant was not/and is not up for debate
with mankind. Just because humans don't get it- doesn't mean it's not true. If one wants to debate by the Bible- there's no pick-and-choose.
Jesus spoke that even scholars would want to know what his apostles knew, but would not and is why He spoke in parables. What God
meant that considered "a day" concerning His Word- is up to Him, not man or man's definition of it.
Mankind has often gotten it wrong. God came in flesh- which had been foretold by many, yet His own didn't even recognize him.
2 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Science helps us to understand how God did/does things. There's much we don't know, but nevertheless, spirituality and science
go hand in hand.
ED
Name:jsm •
Date: 03/27/07 2:20
A: Elizabeth,
You cannot take one verse out of context. A lot of people mistakenly do this. This verse has nothing to do with the days of creation.
2 Peter 3:8-9
‘But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.’
It is saying that Peters readers should not lose heart because God seems slow at fulfilling His promises because He is patient, and also because He is not bound by time as we are.
The phrase "one day is like (or as) a thousand years" — the word "like" (or as) shows that it is a figure of speech, a simile, to teach that God is outside of time because He is the Creator of time itself.
The beginning of the verse states that we should not forget this one things, which means we should recall something. He is quoting Psalm 90:4
Psalm 90:4 "For a thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night."
+ This is synonymous parallelism, where a long period of a thousand years is contrasted with two short periods: a day, and a night watch. But those who try to use this verse to teach that the days of Genesis might be 1000 years long forget the additional part in bold. For if they were consistent, they would have to say that a watch in the night here also means 1000 years. It’s difficult to imagine that the same Psalmist (Psalm 63:6) is thinking on his bed for thousands of years or that his eyes stay open for thousands of years (Psalm 119:148).
The immediate context of the Psalm is the frailty of mere mortal man in comparison to God. This verse amplifies the teaching, saying that no matter how long a time interval is from man’s time-bound perspective, it’s like a twinkling of an eye from God’s eternal perspective.
In any case, the meaning of ‘day’ in Genesis 1 is defined by the context there — the Hebrew word for day, yôm, is used with the words ‘evening’ and ‘morning’, and the days are numbered (first day, second day, etc.). Whenever yôm is used in such a context, it is always an ordinary day, never a long period of time. The meaning of the days of creation as ordinary days is also affirmed by Exodus 20:8–11, where God told the Israelites to work for six days and rest on the seventh because God had made all things in six days and rested on the seventh. For more information, see other articles in Q&A: Genesis under ‘Days of Creation’.
+ From AIG
Name:Elizabeth •
Date: 03/27/07 3:25
A: Dear JSM,
You know, as well as I do, that it is your interpretation, as well as others. (As there are many interpretations concerning Christianity and would explain the many, many denominations within it.) And I am confident that I am not the first you have heard who has interpreted "a day" to equal "a thousand years." I tell you the truth- I did not invent this.
Blessings, ED
Name:Elizabeth •
Date: 03/27/07 3:31
A: "It is saying that Peters readers should not lose heart because God seems slow at fulfilling His promises because He is patient, and also because He is not bound by time as we are."
He is not bound by time like we are- because His time and our time are not the same.
Revelation 22:5
And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
Blessings, ED
Name:Elizabeth •
Date: 03/27/07 3:43
A: Dear JSM,
Something to think about...
I tell you the truth- if God's time and our time are the same- then why did Jesus say to the one on the cross He would be in paradise that very day with Jesus. Yet, a few days later He tells Mary not to cling to him, since He had not yet ascended to his father?
Blessings, ED
Name:sam •
Date: 03/30/07 14:51
A: Betty47, you are right when you mentioned this: "Let's not forget that Christians have always been knocking true science for thousands of years if it conflicts with their religion."
sam answers using THE LOGIC TO BRING THE TRUTH.
1400 years ago, a story about Jesus was mentioned in the Quran: "And their saying, "indeed we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of God." And they did not kill Him, nor did they crucify Him; but (another) was made to resemble Him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knwledge of it except the following of assumption. And the did not kill Him, for certain."-Q4:157
What came in this verse as "doubt about it", & "following assumption", is just what we see today, most Christians are in doubt even if the do not say it or admited. If we believe that Jesus performed many miracles which some of them "DISGUISE" and make himsel unrecognizable, and "APPEARING & DISAPPEARING" while He is among His people in closed room, all that might support the Quran story.
1400 years ago, the story in the Quran told us this:
"AND YOU WILL SURELY KNOW THE TRUTH OF ITS INFORMATION "AFTER TIME". Q-38:88
And AFTER TIME the Gospels and the tomb appeared, and in the RIGHT TIME,, they all appeared when they are safe (if they were to appear before they might not have a chance to survive), also in the RIGHT TIME when there are the tools to tell their authenticity, and in the RIGHT TIME when there are the tools to spread the word, the word of the TRUTH.
So let us go and search for the truth.
In front of us are three HOLY BOOKS:
1- THE BIBLE (OT),
2- THE GOSPELS,
3- THE QURAN.
In this forums which deals with the "lost tomb of Jesus" , or in the many others which come as a results of different discoveries, "Gospel of Judas etc.", people using these books to support their claims, some claimng that they are the word of God, others believe they are inspired by Him. Some belive in theirs but not in the others!?.
The logic says:"if they are (the books) His word or inspired by Him, they should bring within them just the truth and nothing but the truth, otherwise they are not from God or belong to Him."
Saying all that, then the only thing left, is to go back to these book and analyse them, and let their words be the judge fo it is authenticity.
Let us first take the word of Jesus as a guide. "But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment. FOR BY YOUR WORDS YOU WILL BE JUSTIFIED, AND BY YOUR WORDS YOU WILL BE CONDEMNED." M-12:36/37
Spoken words and written words are the same, this fact should be known to everyone. Jesus words came to Him from God, and they represents the truth.
As for the Bible, there are many stories told but they cannot represent the truth:
1- The story of CREATION in Genesis:
Christian Encyclopedia. The creation stories in the Biblical book of GENESIS.
Creation is described in Genesis 1:1 to 2:3 as occurring in six "days":
Day 1: creation of light and its separation from darkness.
Day 2: separation of the sky and oceans.
Day 3: separation of land from the oceans; spreading of plants and grass and trees across the land.
Day 4: Creation of the sun, moon, and stars.
Day 5: Creation of sea animals and birds.
Day 6: Creation of the land animals. Creation of humanity, "someone like ourselves" (Living Bible).
Day 7: God rested. Followers of the Documentary Hypothesis believe this to have been a later addition, 4 placed there to give theological justification for the Sabbath (Saturday as a day of rest).
This sequence does contain some problems.
Light was listed as being created on day 1, but its source (the sun and stars) did not appear until day 4.
The sun and the stars were created in day 4 after the creation of the earth!!!.
Birds were said to be created before other land animals. Paleontologists, who almost universally support the theory of evolution, point out that the fossil record shows the opposite order.
The most controversial debate over this creation story relates to its time span. Genesis 1 and 2 explain how Creation of Earth's life forms, the Earth itself, and the rest of the universe took six days. Supporters of the theory of evolution find evidence for a universe that has been evolving for about 14 billion years.
We are in the 21st century and we know that what came in the Bible about the creation, does not represents the truth, for that cannot be the word of God, period. But still those who believe blindly in everything without using the logic.
2-The story of Abraham: G16:1-21
I spent a lot of time reading the Bible (the King James Bible & the Catholic online Bible, NAB), and I was surprised to find things which are not true, plus the big difference between the two , here some:
FIRST: when Ishmail was born, Abraham was 86.
When Isaac was born, Abraham was 100, that make the age of Ishmael 14.
When Isaac had the weaning party at the age of 2 , Ishmael was at age of 16
SECOND: At the age of 16 Ishmael became a full grown up man and not a child, and at that age at that time (the time of Abraham) men usually get married. So when I read the story here it seems to be not true, (putting it on her shoulder, and the child )(So she put the child down under a shrub ), when they say “put the child down” that means he was carried, and I don’t think a 16 years old young man need to be carried and put down, and under the shrub, and to cry ,
THIRD: the words ‘Hagar’, ‘Ishmael’ they come with red underline as if they are wrong , I think that is wrong, they are Just names like the others, and as for Ishmael “Behold, I have blessed him” God blessed him, and Hagar “angel of God called to Hagar” that mean she was blessed too. And i don’t think the others opinion about them, and the hate will matter much, but in the contrary they will be judged for it.
GENESIS:
KJB- 16:3 And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.
NAB-16-3-Thus, after Abram had lived ten years in the land of Canaan, his wife Sarai took her maid, Hagar the Egyptian, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his concubine.
WIFE: married woman esp. in relation to her husband.
CONCUBINE: woman who cohabits with man without marriage. “ Adultery”
I cannot believe that a prophet will accept to take a woman without marriage . Hagar is his wife, and his son Ishmael was named by God, and blessed by God many times.
KJB- 16:11 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
NAB-16-11 Besides, the LORD'S messenger said to her: You are now pregnant and shall bear a son; you shall name him Ishmael, For the LORD has heard you, God has answered you.
KJB- 16:12And he will be a "WILD MAN" ; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee:
NAB-16-12-He shall be a "WILD ASS OF AMAN", his hand against everyone, and everyone's hand against him; In opposition to all his kin shall he encamp.
WILD MAN ..WILD ASS OF A MAN . How can he blessed by God, then be called in such names . You think God uses such language . the next verses will show you the truth.
KJB- 17:20 Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
NAB-17:20 As for Ishmael, I am heeding you: I hereby bless him. I will make him fertile and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall become the father of twelve chieftains, and I will make of him a great nation.
KJB-21:9 And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, "MOCKING".
NAB-21:9 Sarah noticed the son whom Hagar the Egyptian had borne to Abraham "PLAYING" with her son Isaac;
MOCKING in one and PLAYING in the other . I imagine that Ishmael was looking after his young brother and taking care of him, while the big party going on and everyone having a good time, but the hate inside the heart of the old woman Sarah to Hagar and her son has to come out, and the reason was just a complete selfishness, and it is all about the "INHERITANCE". The next verse prove that:
KJB-21:10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham, cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be "HEIR" with my son Isaac.
NAB-21-10 so she demanded of Abraham: Drive out that slave and her son No son of that slave is going to share the "INHERITANCE" with my son Isaac
KJB-21:13And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed.
NAB-21-13 As for the son of the slave woman, I will make a great nation of him also, since he too is your offspring.
KJB-21:14 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba.
NAB-21-14 Early the next morning Abraham got some bread and a skin of water and gave them to Hagar. Then, "PLACING THE CHILD ON HER BACK" (16 YEARS OLD!!!), he sent her away. As she roamed aimlessly in the wilderness of Beer-sheba,
“putting it on her shoulder, and the child”...”placing the child on her back .” How can Abraham the 100+ years old put his 16 years old son on his wife back?
KJB-21:15 And the water was spent in the bottle, and she cast "THE CHILD" under one of the shrubs.
NAB-21-15 the water in the skin was used up. So she put "THE CHILD" down under a shrub,
KJB-21:17 And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is.
NAB-21-17 God heard the boy's cry, and God's messenger called to Hagar from heaven: What is the matter, Hagar? Don't be afraid; God has heard the boy's cry in this plight of his.
KJB-21:18 Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation.
NAB-21-18 Arise, lift up the boy and hold him by the hand; for I will make of him a great nation.
she cast (throw) the child under one of the shrubs....she put the child down under a shrub....God heard the voice of the lad....God heard the boy's cry....lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand.... lift up the boy and hold him by the hand. Here we should not forget that the CHILD, the LAD, and THE BOY is a young man at the age of 16.
3- Creation, Flood, and Abraham through Joseph derived either from existing historical references OR by Moses or revelation from God (We are not told specifically.)
-Exodus – Giving of the Law (Torah) and Instructions for Building the Tabernacle.
-Leviticus – More Law (Torah) historical events
-Numbers – More Law (Torah), census, historical events
-Deuteronomy – explanation of the law (Torah).
There are laws & historical events in the Bible, and while we can accept the laws (THE COMMANDMENTS) are from God, and without any question , but the stories and the historical events can be questioned because those belongs to people and sometimes people are not perfect, and they do not always tell the truth specially at those early times. Myths were accepted and believed as real thing
So when we read this:
"Archbishop James Ussherof Armagh, Ireland, calculated from the Bible (augmented by some astronomy and numerology) that creation began on October 23, 4004 BC."
then everyone will understand what I meant.
And we read this:
Bishop John S. Spong wrote:
"The bible full of contradictions and errors."
then everyone will understand that I am not alone in my findings.
and when we read this from the Bishop:
"The gospels cannot be trusted to be reliable."
"PAUL quite obviously was not Trinitarian?."
"I am not interested in preserving the doctrine of the TRINITY. I do not believe that the ultimate truth of GOD has been captured in the Trinitarian formula."
"They were moving the Christ experience far beyond its original vocabulary."
Adding to all that, what we read here, from the former catholic NUN.
Mary Ann Collins said:
"I believe in the trinity. There is only one God.
But there is the father, the son (Jesus), and the holy spirit.
Jesus Christ is truly God and truly Man.!!!"
Then she said:"I DON’T UNDERSTAND HOW THIS WORK."
then we can understand that what we found in the Bible from right & wrong information, also the same can be found in the Gospels. SINCE
The words of Jesus "TO FULFIL" the laws in the bible, and can be acepted with no question asked, but the words of Paul, John, Mark etc., can be questioned, because sometime they tell us stories which cannot be logically (or by a common sense) accepted. Sometime the words of Jesus were changed by those who wanted to play with the truth as in this:
John-9:35 (NASB)- "Jesus heard that they had put Him out, and finding Him, He said, "DO YOU BELIEVE IN THE SON OF MAN?"
John-9:35 (the Bible-catholic online)- ".....He said,"DO YOU BELIEVE IN THE SON OF GOD?"
That what we call forgery. No one can change the word of Jesus.
And the story of the Devil tempting Jesus in Matthew-4:1-11, Just a faulse one, and cannot be accepte since there were no witness to record what went on between Jesus and the devil, word by word. And this story did not come from Jesus, but the devil might be the one who is responsible for it.
Adding to the forgeries, what we read from the past history of the churches in Rome. The burning of people and the other Gospels, plus the six dicades of debating about Jesus under the influence of the Roman's Emperors to bring the trinity formula which no one understand how it works logically.
The Bible claims that "GOD CREATED MAN IN HIS OWN IMAGE"?, did anyone saw the image of God "THE HOLY SPIRIT", and Jesus said, "GOD WHOM YOU DON'T KNOW", "HE WHO IS IN HEAVEN"?.
The fact and the truth that "MAN CREATED GOD IN HIS OWN IMAGE", then make Him walk with Abraham and do other things like man do, then created a son for Him, then they created Him by making Him three persons, then they mixed the three person to become one, then they make the son God, and they make the one "GOD" the son the creator!!!, CREATION AFTER CREATION, MAN CREATIONS!!!.
All that creation came from man, and they try to prove them by the words of Paul, and the others!, but not BY Jesus words!?.
The commandment "THE WORD OF GOD" said:
#1- YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME.
And Jesus Said (His word is from God too):
-THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD.
-NO ONE IS GOOD EXCEPT GOD ALONE.
-THE ONE AND ONLY GOD.
-THE ONE WHO SENT ME.
-THE WORD WHICH YOU HEAR IS NOT MINE, BUT THE FATHER'S WHO SENT ME. ( THE WORD OF THE GOD'S WHO SENT ME).
-I CAN DO NOTHING ON MY OWN INITIATIVE.
-TRULY, TRULY, I SAY TO YOU, A SLAVE IS NOT GREATER THAN HIS MASTER, NOR IS ONE WHO IS SENT (JESUS) GREATER THAN THE ONE WHO SENT HIM (GOD).
My question" if Jesus is not equal to God, and He is a sevant and slave to God, then how can He be GOD?.
The authenticity of a book can be found by the informations that holds which suppose to be accepted logically, so as I brought some of the words from the Bible and the Gospels, I will bring some words from the Quran, the last holy book:
- 2:256 There shall be no compulsion in acceptance of the religion.
(that is not the same by the others, millions of people killed by the Chritians "the inquisition" and many others)
- 29:20 O MUHAMMAD, say to them, "GO TRAVEL THROUGH THE EARTH AND OBSERVE HOW THE CREATION BEGAN.
( in the other religions many were killed, burned or arrested because they find the truth about creation (Galileo just one example)
- 41:53 WE will show them our signs in the horizons and within themselves UNTIL IT BECOMES CLEAR to them THAT IT IS THE TRUTH, but it is not sufficient concerning YOUR LORD that HE is, over all things, A WITNESS?.
(Who is better witness than God Himself?. People at that time 1400 years back they don't know what are those signs)
But let us read what God said:
- 38:88 AND YOU WILL 'SURELY' KNOW THE TRUTH OF ITS INFORMATION 'AFTER TIME'.
(it says here that we will come to the truth of what was mentioned in the Quran AFTER TIME, and for sure what we discover in the HOEIZON, in the universe today is another world, a world behind any imagination, also we discoverd in OURSELVES more things, another world within behind any imagination, the marvels of science which show you on the screen inside your body and how it works, and bring to you the cell and the DNA , all those marvels are SIGNS and a proof to the power of God.)
29:19 Have you considered how God begins creation and then repeated it?
(The Geologic records tells us that early life on earth started at the CAMBRIAN period 600 million years ago, then followed by another 15 geological peiod until we come to the recent QUATERNARY period (1-2 million years), which brought the modern life that include apes, pig, whale, horse, plants etc. and then man. during these 15 periods many spieces were created and then died, there were a continious chain of creations all the time, that is until man came. GOD BEGINS CREATION AND THEN REPEATED IT. WE ARE HIS LAST CREATION AND THE BEST. God gave us the brain, the tool to know Him and to submit ourselves to Him.)
21:30 Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heaven and earth were a joined entity, and WE SEPERATED THEM.
(Today scientists believe that all matters in out universe are from one origin, and our universe and what is in it came as a result of "BIG BANG" which happen 13-20 billion years ago.)
51:47 And the heaven WE constructed with strength and INDEED WE ARE ITS EXPANDER.
( THE EXPANDING UNIVERSE IS A PROVEN FACT TODAY, and the Quran, before 1400 years mentioned the seperation and the expanding "SKY" heaven (In Arabic was mentioned as "SAMAWAT" and that word means skys, which we give it today the term universe, and the term heaven was used wrong because that in Arabic "JANNAT".)
21:33 And it is HE who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; ALL HEAVENLY BODIES, IN AN ORBIT ARE SWIMMING.
(Galileo was put under house arrest when he found out that the earth and the moon are arbitting the sun!!!, and Galileo he did not know that our sun and its planets are going in an orbit around our galaxy, once every 250 million years, the billions of stars and planets among the billions of galaxies, all are going in an orbit. "ALL HEAVENLY BODIES GOING IN AN ORBIT", IF THAT WE KNOW TODAY IS TRUE THEN LOGICALLY WE CAN SAY THAT THE QURAN WORDS ARE TRUE AND THEY SURELY REPRESENT THE WORD OF GOD.
There are many other scientific examples in the Quran. But I don't think that those who believe in the false stories or make their own false stories, and those who kill for them will ever accept the truth.
They built an Empire and make it grow by the sword and fire for 2000 years, and they will never accept anything that might have an effect on it, they will fight hard to keep it, the truth that came from the finding of the Gospels and the truth that might come from the lost tomb of Jesus will nevever be accepted. Who care about the truth, there is business to run, and positions to hold on.
Name:roy •
Date: 03/31/07 14:00
A: Betty47,
Prophets come with their miracles, it is correct that holy books including Bible and Qoran may have alleged to some miraculous events to fortify the hearts of new entrants.
All prophets including Jesus, Moses, Dhul-kifl, Shoaib and Solomon had this power before. such as : represent the ultimate goals of science and technology. the quran relates that matter (but not humans) can be transported at the speed of light (27:30-40); that smell can be transported to remote places (12:94); that extensive communication with animals is possible (27:16-17); that sleep, in certain conditions, can slow down metabolism and increase life span (18:25); and that the vision of blind people can be restored (3:49).
Of course you can not see the supernatural events today, because there is no prophets around. You may simply trust there were enough intelligent people and scientists around as well as today to correct those were miracles rather than magician tricks. So they have converted, even died for it. Paroah and magicians.
Sam
you have right on many things, I put down my arguments;
1- Creation theory, I have the ammendmends below:
There is a prestigious and welknown professor in Turkiye, who claims almost same theory with director of National Human Genome reseach institute ( genome.gov) NHGRI Director Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D., and others.
Prof Dr. Hüseyin Hatemi (Ph.D) Law, [email protected]
He has written a booklet “Duanin Anlami” ( Meaning of Prayer) where he describes the creation of human being as a result of evolution and God‘s intervention to it by sending Prophet Adam and Eve, in September 5594 BC. According to their theory, Evolution has been coming till the era while some human-like animals were on the planet. God sent Adam and Eve to the world, their children got married to the already living species, has made up different races and made todays societies. It may also solve positively believers problem that in this case there was no “incest “ between the children, took place at the early stages of human kind.
1000 years after Prophet Adam, Prophet Noah has survived the big flood which was for punishment of those with idolatries. Around 1600 BC. Prophet Abraham was sent, his sons Isiac, Eshmail and several prophets from their generations followed him. Abraham has built the Sacred Kaba at Mecca today. 1300-1230 BC. Was the era of Prophet Moses. More than 1000 years later Prophet Jesus Christ has arrived. At year of 569 AD. Prophet Mohammed was born.
Over 3 millions of muslims gather each year at the pilgrimage ceremony near Mecca at Mount Arafat on Zilhicce 9 (Arabic Calendar~lunar ) (Date changes according to our Calendar every year) . Arafat is at 15 miles South east of Mecca. They believe it is the point where Prophet Adam and Eve were sent to earth after discharged from heaven. (see: photos)
muhammedmustafa.net/resimle-r/mekke/arafat001.jpg
Go-d- has created universe in six phases (days) two was for earth.
[7:54] Your Lord is the one GOD, who created the heavens and the earth in six days, then assumed all authority. The night overtakes the day, as it pursues it persistently, and the sun, the moon, and the stars are committed to serve by His command. Absolutely, He controls all creation and all commands. Most Exalted is GOD, Lord of the universe.
[11:7] He is the One who created the heavens and the earth in six days - and His (earthly) domain was completely covered with water - in order to test you, to distinguish those among you who work righteousness. Yet, when you say, "You will be resurrected after death," those who disbelieve would say, "This is clearly witchcraft."
[25:59] He is the One who created the heavens and the earth, and everything between them, in six days, then assumed all authority. The Most Gracious; ask about Him those who are well founded in knowledge.
[41:9] Say, "You disbelieve in the One who created the earth in two days, and you set up idols to rank with Him, though He is Lord of the universe.”
2- Third you mention Hagar (rad),
KSB 16:3 suports the events however the age may be mistaken of 16 for Ishmael. The story compelets at Qoran.
I found the story in quran and in wikipedia in details. The jealousy between the wifes of Proph. Abraham , Sarai and hagar has led Abraham to take Hagar to Mecca. The baby Ishmael was there and has the role of spring called Zamzam there flow for centuries till today. You may further search at:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/-Al-Safa_and_Al-Marwah
Haga-r- was praised by God in Qoran. Today, the people who go for pilgrimmage, observe the prayer by walking 7 times the hills of Al-Safa_and_Al-Marwah, commemorate the despair Hagar felt for her baby to find water for his thirst. Finaly having a miracle with fountain of Zamzam spring.
Marwah is located about 100 yards from the Kaaba. The distance between Safa and Marwah is approximately 450 meters/ 500 yards.
3- Trinity is definately added to Bible and Gospels later on. It has been the previous pagans culture, so easier it made its passage to the new christian religion, accepted as dogma, though not understood well.
Christians has been influenced by muslims, by giving up claim of three gods~Trias, trinity, instead they say One God in three, by pressure of muslims about this absurdity.
Christ was not any God. God strongly forbids paradise to anyone who claims Christ or any partner share to His Throne. Hundreds of verses written exists in Quran on this topic only because of people have diverted from the true path. Early Christians have changed the Bible according to power hungry Byzantene ruler & bishops wishes at year around 300 AD. The hypothesis and proof of Christ created fatherless but to be a mere human being is very important to us from this point. Quran persistently renounces the notion of “Trias” and defines it as the only unforgivable sin that could be made to Him. Overloving Jesus by his followers brought him to the stage sharing power of God. It remains the same mistake and danger for Muslims to their prophets or imams. God does not need peoples recognition of the latest versions of what He says. That’s why He says keep your own faith as Christian or Jew but don’t commit sin of Trinity or false claims against Me or Jesus because I am the only One. He does not accept religions from those who curses Him in that Trias way, and will not forgive those (only sin NOT to be forgiven) .
If the trias is not accepted at Byzantene time Council 300 AD. It would have been less likely to get acceptance by plural gods greek society of that time and would have been difficult to unite them. God forgives all sins except heretics of trinity. Trias is strictly forbidden in Islam and said has been the continuous pitfall in all previous religions, often lured many believers. It holds the same danger for muslims loving too much of anchestors, priests, or prophets to make them equal or germane in ranking to God. Even asking a wish from those deities are biggest sin committed against God. He warns in hundreds of verses of Quran and Bible to avoid this pitfall or else you wont be forgiven. (Killing may be forgiven but deity worshipping not.) So please be ware of this threat from God and check your books better. You are especially a person to lead the crowd and want to be closer to God. You will get the burden of each person you‘ve diverted, or reward you’ve lead to truth, too. True Christianity never offered equal deity to God. Christ was praying to God for help, why should he have done, if He had been a god himself? Jesus never said pray to me, ask from me. Please check the following Bible verses:
Matta 7:21-23
Psalm 99:9
Timothy 1:17
Isiah 45:21,22
The Qur'an and Sunnah both teach us emphatically and without any doubt that the Creator considers the statement of the Trinity to be a great falsehood. The Qur'an states (translation):
[19:88-93] They say: "(Allah) the Most Merciful has begotten a son!" Indeed you have put forth a thing most monstrous! At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin, that they should invoke a son for (Allah) the Most Merciful. For it is not consonant with the majesty of (Allah) the Most Merciful that He should beget a son: Not one of the beings in the heavens and the earth but must come to (Allah) the Most Merciful as a servant.
2 : 213 Mankind was one single nation, and Allah sent Messengers with glad tidings and warnings; and with them He sent the Book in truth, to judge between people in matters wherein they differed; but the People of the Book, after the clear Signs came to them, did not differ among themselves, except through selfish contumacy. Allah by His Grace guided the Believers to the Truth, concerning that wherein they differed. For Allah guides whom He will to a path that is straight.
[4:171] O people of the scripture, do not transgress the limits of your religion, and do not say about GOD except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was a messenger of GOD, and His word that He had sent to Mary, and a revelation from Him. Therefore, you shall believe in GOD and His messengers. You shall not say, "Trinity." You shall refrain from this for your own good. GOD is only one god. Be He glorified; He is much too glorious to have a son. To Him belongs everything in the heavens and everything on earth. GOD suffices as Lord and Master.
[19:36] He also proclaimed, "GOD is my Lord and your Lord; you shall worship Him alone. This is the right path."
*19:36 This is similar to the statement attributed to Jesus in the Gospel of John 20:17.
[5:72] Pagans indeed are those who say that GOD is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah himself said, "O Children of Israel, you shall worship GOD; my Lord and your Lord." Anyone who sets up any idol beside GOD, GOD has forbidden Paradise for him, and his destiny is Hell. The wicked have no helpers.
*Look at the sameness of Kuran: Sura - 5 ( The Feast ) Al-Ma'edah and Bible Matta 7:21-23
*5:72-76 In John 20:17, we see that Jesus taught that he was neither God, nor the son of God. Many theologians have concluded, after careful research, that today's Christianity is not the same Christianity taught by Jesus. Two outstanding books on this subject are "The Myth of God Incarnate" (The Westminster Press, Philadelphia, 1977) and The "Mythmaker" (Harper & Row, New York, 1986). On the front jacket of "The Mythmaker" we read the following statement:
" ...Hyam Maccoby presents new arguments to support the view that Paul, not Jesus, was the founder of Christianity....it was Paul alone who created a new religion through his vision of Jesus as a divine Saviour who died to save humanity."
[3:59] The example of Jesus, as far as GOD is concerned, is the same as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, "Be," and he was.
[3:60] This is the truth from your Lord; do not harbor any doubts.
[61:6] Recall that Jesus, son of Mary, said, "O Children of Israel, I am GOD's messenger to you, confirming the Torah and bringing good news of a messenger to come after me whose name will be even more praised (Ahmad)." Then, when he showed them the clear proofs, they said, "This is profound magic."
*Sameness of Sura - 61 The Column (Al-Suff) and Bible İsiah 45:21,22
Psalm 99:9 Timothy 1:17 good news fro sneding another prophet called Ahmad(Hz Mohammad) or Pheraklid (praised)= Ahmad
[3:51] "GOD is my Lord and your Lord; you shall worship Him alone. This is the right path."
[3:52] When Jesus sensed their disbelief, he said, "Who are my supporters towards GOD?" The disciples said, "We are GOD's supporters; we believe in GOD, and bear witness that we are submitters / muslims."
*3:51 This is precisely what Jesus is quoted to say throughout the New Testament. See for example the Gospel of John 20:17, and the book "Jesus: Myths and Message" by Lisa Spray, Ch. 4 (Universal Unity, Fremont, CA 1992).
As you say: --such as the development of conditions favoring life on earth in the face of incredible odds--point toward the divine.
It is said exactly same way in many verses of Quran. Where you may find out yourself by searching at :
usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference-/searchquran.html
MIRACLES- IN QURAN
The Quranic description of the earth, the solar system, the cosmos and the origin of the universe is centuries ahead of the time of its first revelation. For instance, the Quran, delivered in the seventh century C.E., states or implies that:
-As for the shape of the earth, And the earth afterwards, he made it egg-shaped. (79:30)
-Time is relative (70:4; 22:47).
-God created the universe from nothing (2:117).
-The earth and heavenly bodies were once a single point and they were separated from each other by an explosion (21:30).
-The universe is continuously expanding (51:47).
-The stage before the creation of the earth is described as a gas nebula (41:11).
-Planet earth is floating in an orbit (27:88; 21:33).
-Earth's atmosphere acts like a protective shield for the living creatures (21:32).
-Wind also pollenates plants (15:22).
-The creation of living creatures follows an evolutionary system (15:28-29; 24:45; 32:7-9; 71:14-7).
-The earliest biological creatures were incubated inside flexible layers clay (15:26).
-The stages of human development in the womb are detailed (23:14).
-Our biological life span is coded in our genes (35:11).
-Photosynthesis is a recreation of energy stored through chlorophyll (36:77-81).
-The atomic number, atomic weight and isotopes of Iron are specified. (57:25).
-Atoms of elements found on earth contain maximum seven energy layers (65:12).
-The sound and vision of water and the action of eating dates (which contain oksitoxin) reduces labor pains (19:24-25).
-The total amount of annual rain on earth does not change equals same/year (43:11; 15:21).
-There is life (not necessarily intelligent) beyond earth (42:29).
-The number of months in a year is stated as 12 and the word Month (shahr) is used exactly twelve times.
-The number of days in a year is not stated, but the word Day (yawm) is used exactly 365 times.
-Dual sexes of everything created
-Flowing journey of sun in a path
-Source of light of sun; reflecting feature of moon
-Possibility of lunar voyage
-Surface layers to the pit of earth
-Elipsoid shape of earth, arctic basins are at lower altitude
-Feature of wind as carrier of seed
-Water curtain at waterpasses between seas
-Flow of current at deep sea, darkness of depth
-Feature of mountains as balancing weight to the earth surface
-Movements of mountains as clouds, departing continents
-Earthquake break lines
-Evolution of petroleum
-Breathing is uneasy at increased altitudes
-Environmental problems as a result of man fault. Warning “keep the balance”
-Sexes in plants
-Female bee making the hove
-Communication ability in birds and ants…
-Texture of man from earth and water
-Creation starting from water
-Identification on tips of fingers
-Love between the couples
-Groups intermingle with marriages
-Spread of mankind from the city of Mecca
-Sabeans, Magrib dam catastrophy,
-Yemen Ad Comunity Extinction Lost Pillars found recent years
-Lut Comunity, Sodom Gomorah being the lowest point on earth surface Jordan
-Haman name (Vice president for Paroah) revelas recently Egypt
-Paroah of Egypt killed at Red sea finding. His corpse analysed as hit to the rocks and left at sea for a long time
-Old testament and new testament correction, amendment of stories
-Romans good news of victory over Persians within 3-9 years that happend.
-Transporting of matter in light speeds
-Possibility of death of stars and sun
-Boiling of oceans as a scientific result of global warming caused by icebergs melt or at resurrection day
-Big bang and big inner downfall crunch like locusts
-Seven layers above sky, and beneath earth down to pit.
And there's more – much more. Many of the miracles mentioned in the Quran, for instance, represent the ultimate goals of science and technology. The Quran relates that matter (but not humans) can be transported at the speed of light (27:30-40); that smell can be transported to remote places (12:94); that extensive communication with animals is possible (27:16-17); that sleep, in certain conditions, can slow down metabolism and increase life span (18:25); and that the vision of blind people can be restored (3:49).
Further reading you may find at: quranmiracles.com/
Name:jsm •
Date: 03/31/07 15:34
A: Evolution-believing Muslims seem to be far more numerous, and vocal, than creationist Muslims. The creationist Muslims claim that ‘The theory of evolution and the holy Qur’an are in direct conflict with each other and no compatibility is possible anywhere.’ New Scientist reported that Islamic creationist books cite and copy Christian creationists, but with Biblical references deleted.
They have a substantial strategic advantage precisely because the Koran is so vague, nebulous and seemingly open to various interpretations. The Koran can also accommodate different views in other areas. Muslims eager to promote Islam as a religion of ‘peace’ have quoted publicly only Koranic passages that apparently speak gently of non-Muslims, ignoring other passages commanding Muslims to wage ‘jihad’ against them.
The Koran being so vague in my opinion is a huge problem, because it leaves it open to interpretations of supposedly "gods word". I mean even take Noah's story for instance. The bible clearly states that Noah is the tenth generation from Adam, the Koran doesn't even list genealogies. The bible gave the arks dimensions Genesis 6:15 "And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits", the Koran doesn't list any measurements. The bibles states the duration of rain, (40 days/nights), time afloat (150 days), total duration (370 days) of Flood, the Koran does not. The bible states that all 8 aboard survived, the Koran has question marks. Then in the bible god showing the rainbow to signify his covenant not to destroy the earth again by a flood, the Koran has no mention of this.
The Koran is so vague its ridiculous...
Name:Panluna •
Date: 03/31/07 19:34
A: Good for you,Betty47---I think you saw the light!!!If more Christians would get their heads out of the sand and take a good look at the facts they would be more enlightened and less ignorant.But to each their own.I wouldn't want miss something this important!!!At least you are a progressive thinker and not afraid to see to the truth.
Name:roy •
Date: 03/31/07 19:36
A: Elizabeth, Jsm,
Relativity of time in bible, quran
2 Peter 3:8-9
‘But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.’
Psalm 90:4 "For a thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night."
We muslims have the same aproach to God time rather than other numerical restricted measurements. It can be one day equal to one thousand years that we count or even 50.000 years.
The message in the Bible that reads: “And on the seventh day God finished His work that He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work that He had done.” (Genesis 2, 2) was thus corrected, as fatigue was certainly out of the question for God.
50:38- We created the heavens and the earth, and all that lies between them in six days, and no fatigue touched us.
10:45- On the day when He gathers them, it will appear to them as if they had tarried an hour of a day...
23:112-113 He said: “How many years did you stay on earth?”
They said: “We stayed a day or part of a day, ask those who account.”
70:4- To Him ascend the angels and the spirit in a day the measure of which is fifty thousand years.
32:5- He regulates all affairs from the heaven to the earth. Then they ascend to Him in a day, the measure of which is a thousand years as you count.
There are other day related verses that I will not put here. It suffice to proove it was beyond that one day equals to one day concept. According to Einstein, time would pass more slowly for somebody driving a vehicle at a speed close to the velocity of light. In a medium in which an inhabitant of the earth passes one hundred days, it may take a person fifty days to displace at a speed nearing the propagation speed of light.
Jsm,
You say muslims put forward only the gentle verses but refrain jihad, and brutal parts ordered.
Quran does not hide anything, It is a complete way of life, system of laws rather than putting down geneologies and measurements that caused your reasoning to accuse it being too vague.
I put down below the most blunt verses describing fight. Is there any criticism to be drawn upon to it? Todays United nations laws are the same. If any nation had a threat or attack from its neighbouring country/ comunity, It gives the nation the right to attack back, fight, protect themselves.
MISPERCEPTION :Punishment who commits crime against Allah or Mohammed sas. Do you see any cruelty in this or the opposite? Old testament has the same verses, rules crimes committed against humanity.
5:32-34 On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person- unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land- it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our Messengers with Clear Signs, yet, even after that, many of then continued to commit excesses in the land. The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter; Except for those who repent before they fall into your power: in that case, know that Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
MISPERCEPTION: Those who dont beleive in Islam will burn in hell forever?
There are at least 50 verses saying :~ whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord.
2.62: Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.
22:50- Those who believe and work Righteousness, for them is forgiveness and a sustenance most generous.
85: 11- For those who believe and do righteous deeds, will be Gardens beneath which Rivers flow: that is the great Salvation, (the fulfillment of all desires),
98: 7- Those who have Faith and do righteous deeds, they are the best of creatures.
56: 10-14 And those Foremost (in Faith) will be foremost (in the Hereafter). These will be those Nearest to Allah: In Gardens of Bliss: A number of people from those of old, And a few from those of later times.
MISPERCEPTION: Those who reject Islam will be forced to drink boiling fetid water, and they will still not die after going through this unthinkable torture?
14:13-18 And the Unbelievers said to their messengers: "Be sure we shall drive you out of our land, or ye shall return to our religion." But their Lord inspired (this Message) to them: "Verily We shall cause the wrongdoers to perish! "And verily We shall cause you to abide in the land, and succeed them. This for such as fear the Time when they shall stand before My tribunal- such as fear the Punishment denounced." But they sought victory and decision (there and then), and frustration was the lot of every powerful obstinate transgressor. In front of such a one is Hell, and he is given, for drink, boiling fetid water. In gulps will he sip it, but never will he be near swallowing it down his throat: death will come to him from every quarter, yet will he not die: and in front of him will be a chastisement unrelenting.
They are not simply those who rejects İslam but actively treathening that they shall drive believers out of their land, or force them to return to non-believers religion.
(This tragedy happened hundreds of times in history, one of which in Spain inqusition, jews/muslims survived either after accepting Catolic demands or flee to muslim countries. They are still living among us equally proud with name of Safarad or (from rest of Europe) Eskinasi jews) For details read the following; http://www.crisismagazine.com/octo-ber2003/madden.htm
MISPERCEPTIO-N- : Those who deny 'Allah' will be punished by pouring boiling water on their heads, and forcing them to wear clothes made from fire. This will cause their bodies to be scalded and burnt both from inside and outside. Their skin and whatever there is in their abdomens, will be melted. Furthermore, they will be punished with chains and whips made from Iron.And If they try to run from all these torturous suffering, they shall be forced to turn back into it?
22 :19-25 These two antagonists dispute with each other about their Lord: but those who deny (their Lord), for them will be cut out a garment of Fire: over their heads will be poured out boiling water. With it will be scalded what is within their bodies, as well as (their) skins. In addition there will be maces of iron (to punish) them.
Every time they wish to get away therefrom from anguish, they will be forced back therein, and (It will be said), taste ye the Penalty of burning! Allah will admit those Who believe and work righteous deeds, to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow: they shall be Adorned therein with bracelets of gold and pearls; and their garments there will be of silk. For they have been guided (In this life) to the purest of speeches; they have been guided to the path of Him Who is worthy of (all) praise.
As to who have rejected (Allah), and would keep back (men) from the way of Allah, and From the Sacred Mosque, which We have made (open) to (all) men Equal is the dweller there and the visitor from the country and any whose purpose therein Is profanity or wrong doing them will we cause to taste Of a most grievous penalty.
You can understand from above clearly. The punishment is not for who have rejected (Allah), It is again not for the passive Rejecters but for those actively fight against İslam try to keep back (men) from the way of Allah, and From the Sacred Mosque. Simple Rejecters are kept at their choise, as one can not cover against for more than thousand years of practice in history.
2: 256- Let there be no compulsion in religion.
60: 8-9 Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.
Allah only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong.
MISPERCEPTION; rejecters punishment is extreme!
76 :2-5 Verily We created man from a drop of mingled sperm, in order to try him: so We gave him (the gifts). Of Hearing and Sight. We showed him the Way: whether he be grateful or ungrateful (rests on his will). For the Rejecters We have prepared chains, Yokes, and a Blazing Fire. As to the Righteous, they shall drink of a Cup (of Wine) mixed with Kafur,
It is fairly described by our Creator who has the right to do what He wishes to do with us. It is commensurate what He gives and asked in return.
MISPERCEPTION : Is Religion Compulsive Or Is It Not?
2 : 256- Let there be no compulsion in religion.
9:4-5Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you, so fulfill their agreement to the end of their term; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty). So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. And if one of the idolaters seek protection from you, grant him protection till he hears the word of Allah, then make him attain his place of safety; this is because they are a people who do not know. How can there be an agreement for the idolaters with Allah and with His Messenger; except those with whom you made an agreement at the Sacred Mosque? So as long as they are true to you, be true to them; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).
9:29Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
47:4 So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates.
2:190-192 And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits. And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers. But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
The conditions abovementioned are in the circumstances of war. The rules of war are different than peacetime.
Anyone can still feel the ordered mercy in case if they surrender or cease fire. The wars, take place today are much more cruel than described rules in Qoran.
8:65,66 O Prophet! urge the believers to war; if there are twenty patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a hundred of you they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they are a people who do not understand. For the present Allah has made light your burden, and He knows that there is weakness in you; so if there are a hundred patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a thousand they shall overcome two thousand by Allah's permission, and Allah is with the patient.
At the war environment people must be encouraged, given morale, made ready to fight. The verses had proven hundreds of times true in the war. Endulus (Spain, Portugal, South France) has been captured by muslims shortly after Prophets death in 7th Century by less than 20.000 people who fought against 110.000, and defeated them. It was kept untill 1492, with minimal army, thanks to support of local people who in great numbers accepted İslam. Last muslims were expelled in 1614.
Sam,
3. Creation part, The Bible claims that "GOD CREATED MAN IN HIS OWN IMAGE"?, I havethe following additions from Quranic perspective;
God didn’t create Adam from His own image, but He created him from his soul.
We believe ;
38:71-72 Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: I am about to create man from clay:
When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him.
This shows that He didn’t resemble to Adam by shapely fashion but could be by soul. He says at another sentence that Soul (Spirit)
17: 85- They ask thee concerning the spirit (of inspiration). Say: the spirit (cometh) by command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you, (O men)
As a result we can say from islamic perspective, we dont know the shape of God but can guess about His spirit that He breath into us from. We also add that He is apart from all weakness, inabilities attributed for mankind. He is apart from bad and He is just Perfect for all qualities, Omnipotent.
God never resembles to human being nor there is a way to compare Him anyway to us. We can not say anything that we dont know about Him. It is actually forbidden to us.
2: 169- For he commands you what is evil and shameful, and that ye should say of Allah that of which ye have no knowledge.
7: 33- Say: the things that my Lord hath indeed forbidden are: shameful deeds, whether open or secret; since and trespasses against truth or reason; assigning of partners to Allah, for which He hath given no authority; and saying things about Allah of which ye have no knowledge.
10: 68- They say, Allah hath begotten a son glory be to him he is Self-Sufficient his are all things in the heavens and on earth no warrant have ye for this say ye about Allah what ye know not?
Humans are not in the image of God. The concept of “Jesus was a human” is acceptable to us. He was different than mankind much more similarly created like Adam, and son of Zekaria, Yahya (John) who was given birth to a very old parents.
Regards
Name:jsm •
Date: 04/01/07 3:30
A: Panluna,
"If more Christians would get their heads out of the sand and take a good look at the facts"
What "facts" might you be talking about?
Name:Panluna •
Date: 04/01/07 14:35
A: Hi,JSM,
I finally recieved my copy ofTHE LOST TOMB OF JESUS.I read it from beginning to the end.Honestly i couldn't put it down it was that fascinating!!!The DNA tests and the inscriptions proved that it is the family of Jesus.You have to read the book in order to decide.What I meant by the "head in the sand"remark is since the world is progressing so rapidly and humankind is moving in new directions it is time to embrace a new way of thinking.Science is the guiding light in this day and age.Of course that is up to the individual.You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink it.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 04/01/07 15:43
A: I meant THE FAMILY TOMB OF JESUS. as the title of this book.I can't wait for my DVD to get here.I had hoped that the Discovery channel would have retelevised the documentary.
Name:jsm •
Date: 04/01/07 17:57
A: Panluna,
"The DNA tests and the inscriptions proved that it is the family of Jesus."
Mind sharing the proof from the book you read in reference to the DNA and inscriptions and don't use probabilities because I have already explained in this forum why you cannot?
Name:Panluna •
Date: 04/01/07 21:40
A: JSM,
I would have to quote the whole book to you.It would be easier if you read it.It stands up to even the most skeptical mind.Have you read it yet?I saw only parts of the original broadcast of The Lost Tomb Of Jesus because of interuptions by my family and telephone calls and I had hoped the program would be retelevised.I am getting a copy of the DVD,soon.But the book is awesome and the last paraghraph is very touching---it moved me to tears.It also includes a good bibliograpy.
Name:sam •
Date: 04/01/07 22:52
A: jsm, you claimed the following:
"New Scientist reported that Islamic creationist books cite and copy Christian creationists, but with Biblical references deleted."
-------------------------
Your new scientists, are they the Christians scientist?, are their fathers the scientist who believed that the earth was created just before 6 thousand years!? , and are those the one who killed and burned and put under arrest many other real scientist ,like GALILEO., are they the one who believe that the Devil took Jesus to a high mountain to show Him the kingdoms of the earth and their glory?, do they believe that seven Devil (exactly) came out from Mary Magdalene?.
"Islamic creationist books cite and copy Christian creationists, but with Biblical references deleted"
---------------------------------
The bible is full of contradictions and errors", and "the gospels cannot be trusted to be reliable". that is what the Chritian retired bishop, JOHN S. SPONG find out.
The story of the creation in Genesis cannot be accepted by any scientist today, and many stories in the gospels cannot be accepted logically, the bishop was right.
The Quran and the words of Jesus and what was taught by Moses are the same teachings one fulfil another and does not abolish it. Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad brought God messages, and laws, the most inprtant message is to believe in one God.
Moses , the 1st commandment "YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME.
Jesus, "THE ONE AND ONLY GOD", "THE ONLY TRUE GOD", "THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD", And Jesus "SPENT THE WHOLE NIGHT IN PRAYER TO GOD".
Muhammad brought the same teachings, (the Quran), "ONE AND ONLY GOD".
All your scientists they suppose to understand what Jesus said, and believe in His word, but they do not !, they believe in a formula (the trinity)which was created in Rome after several centuries from Jesus death, and they knew that the Roman Emperors and few bishop spent sixty years to develop it , and they knew that what came in that formula is against the teaching of Jesus and against the word of God, but they do blindly follow it.
Former catholic Nun, Mary Ann Collins wrote: "I BELIEVE IN THE TRINITY...I DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW IT WORK"
Your scientist developed Jesus by making Him first the "SON OF GOD", (by Paul), the make of him "MAN-GOD", "GOD WITH THREE PERSON" But (JESUS IS GOD", but when He was lifted to heaven "HE SAT DOWN/STAND AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD".
Dis any of your scientist ask this question: If Jesus is God , then why he had to sir or stand on the right hand of God ?, is the throne suppose to belong to Him?, is He waiting for His God to retire to take His place???.
who deleted the Biblical references?, can you prove it?.
I want to ask you , "can you tell me who burned the many other gospels, and kept the four and then add to them the personal letters of Paul?.
You know about the forgeries that went on for centuries In Rome, which done by the popes and the bishops?.
Read your history, before claiming false thing about the others.
"YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WTNESS AGAINST YOUR NEIGHBOUR."
Do you understand what that means?.
Name:jsm •
Date: 04/02/07 3:40
A: Sam,
"New Scientist reported that Islamic creationist books cite and copy Christian creationists, but with Biblical references deleted."
"Your new scientists, are they the Christians scientist?, are their fathers the scientist who believed that the earth was created just before 6 thousand years!? , and are those the one who killed and burned and put under arrest many other real scientist ,like GALILEO., are they the one who believe that the Devil took Jesus to a high mountain to show Him the kingdoms of the earth and their glory?, do they believe that seven Devil (exactly) came out from Mary Magdalene?."
New Scientist is a magazine... http://www.newscientist.com and no, their the farthest thing from being creation scientists...
"Read your history, before claiming false thing about the others."
The history that this article is present in the New Scientist magazine? I did... I have it
Name:jsm •
Date: 04/02/07 4:06
A: sam,
I love how Muslims always try to say that todays copies of the bible have been corrupted, but the earliest Biblical manuscripts (e.g. in the British Museum) date from before Muhammad.
Name:roy •
Date: 04/02/07 22:48
A: Jsm,
“the earliest Biblical manuscripts (e.g. in the British Museum) date from before Muhammad. “
Does not prove that bible was not corrupted but necessarily if it was, also later day Mohammad (sas) teaching is also corrupted. Mohammad’s teaching were unlike any other books, memorized by hundreds of muslims systematicaly and diligently. The simple words of him Hadiths were forbidden to be written or recorded in order prevent mess up with revelations.
Records or bible were not kept in order and deliberately distorted. However muslims believe the original is kept by God and it is true that it was given to Jesus.
Here is a scientist claims the earth has met with human being by intervention of God in recent past (in last 10.000 years suits to theological scriptures) in comparison with the age of earth 400 billions of years.
Director of National Human Genome reseach institute ( genome.gov) NHGRI Director Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D.
(Please take away hyphens if appears at below link)
Did- Collins think it possible that all species are products of evolution--except for humanity, which God created separately? "Based on everything we know," the young man asked, "would that tie together evolution and [a literal reading of the Bible] and make room for God to intervene?"
Collins showed no surprise that a star scholar poised to contribute to the future of medicine should entertain the idea that evolution might not apply to humans.
Collins, that rarest of raritiesa superstar evangelical biologist and author of the new book The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief (Free Press; 304 pages), was perfectly qualified to answer. He did. That notion "gets you into a series of real problems," he replied. He sketched one out: the human genome contains nonfunctional elements in the precise spot where they can be found on the chromosomes of lower animals. If God was creating humans afresh, Collins asked, "why would he insert a pseudo-gene that has lost its ability to do anything in the same place that it appears in a chimp?" Barring evolution, "you're forced to the conclusion that God was trying to mislead us and test our faith--and I have trouble with that kind of conjecture."
There are the vocal proponents of creationism and intelligent design . Then there are academic atheists who claim increasingly aggressively that science is in the process of proving religion a delusion. Collins, however, has both the standing and the desire to promote a third way. "We haven't heard very much about the way these views can be rendered into a very satisfying harmony. And I do hope that both camps are a potential audience for what I have to say."
"Science is the only reliable way to understand the natural world [but] is powerless to answer questions such as 'what is the meaning of human existence'--but he tracks it to a different conclusion. "We need to bring all the power of both scientific and spiritual perspectives to bear on understanding what is both seen and unseen," he writes, maintaining that those perspectives "not only can coexist within one person, but can do so in a fashion that enriches and enlightens the human experience."
Collins investigated faith on his own methodical terms. Finally, one morning in 1978, while hiking in the Pacific Cascades, he came upon a massive, frozen, three-stream waterfall. To him it recalled the Trinity. He writes, "I knelt in the dewy grass as the sun rose and surrendered to Jesus Christ."
Reconciling his belief with his service to genetics proved easier for him than for many of his colleagues. Upon discovering the fibrosis flaw, he remembers feeling that "God had rained down his blessing." he says, "I've found myself the sole person saying faith was relevant" to science.
Although he does not believe God is rationally provable, he thinks that natural phenomena--such as the development of conditions favoring life on earth in the face of incredible odds--point toward the divine.
he provides a pocket description of his preferred synthesis of evolution with Christianity, which he calls BioLogos but which has a previous history under the name theistic evolution. Collins' version sees God as having preplanned the process of mutation and selection at time's beginning, knowing it would produce humanity.Collins, on the other hand, thinks the whole point was for God to create a being with whom he could develop an ongoing relationship through prayer, Scripture and what the scientist cheerfully acknowledges as a scientifically inexplicable "divine invasion of the natural world" in the saving person of Jesus Christ.
"I don't think God intended Genesis to teach science," he says, arguing that "the evidence in favor of evolution is utterly compelling."
Name:sam •
Date: 04/03/07 2:12
A: jsm,
New Scientist is a magazine...
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A magazine that run by Christians. will side with the christians when Muslims or islam are presented. creation or evolution or science will be put on the shelf.
"Read your history, before claiming false thing about the others."
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History and geography are my hobby from the tome I was 14-15, and I read a lot of history in the last 54 years. I am well educated to know if what was writen is representing the truth. each side has their different view, so i do my work and compare the information before i totlly accepted as a fact.
The history books is full of both the true and the false. we should accept the facts that both (the muslim & the Christian) had in their history the good the bad and the agly things. So if we put everything on a scale then we can come to judge who has more good or more bad and the ugly history.
The muslims might did bad in going to spain, but the history tells us that they did good for both the christians and the Jews and brought art and science and peace for the people who been suffering under the rules of the churches, we should not forget what happen to the Jews when the muslim left.
On the other side the christians went to the Americas, and wiped out most of the aboriginal people, then went to Africa and took millions of slave, and been under slave until not very long. the churches were behind every occupation which hapen aroud the world in Africa or Asia.
You should not forget that the churches rob the gold to built their churches and make gold statues for Jesus and Mary and the saints, also we should not forget that the 1st and 2nd world wars are the work of the christians and the killing of millions of Jews is done by them. Read the history of the popes and what they done, even in the catholic site (popes and saints) I read about a pope who dig another pope/saint from his grave after 6 months and judged him and cut his fingers then throw him to the croud in the street. All what i brought here are facts, and there are evidence and witnesses.
I love how Muslims always try to say that todays copies of the bible have been corrupted, but the earliest Biblical manuscripts (e.g. in the British Museum) date from before Muhammad.
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WOW, in the British Museum !!!, Four gospels chosen and the rest been burned and many people burned alive to save the true bible, and Judas gospel was found, and the christians cry loud and ask to burn it (the lost gospel of Judas in the National Geographic forums), and there is another "earliest Biblical manuscripts " hidden in a meseum!!!. I wonder if it represent a truth, why it should be hidden and not published and added to the holy book, Paul personal letters to his friend been added, while they are business and friendship letters?.
Name:jsm •
Date: 04/03/07 3:25
A: Roy,
"Here is a scientist claims the earth has met with human being by intervention of God in recent past (in last 10.000 years suits to theological scriptures) in comparison with the age of earth 400 billions of years."
Was that english? I have no idea what you mean
"If God was creating humans afresh, Collins asked, "why would he insert a pseudo-gene that has lost its ability to do anything in the same place that it appears in a chimp?""
Its called the second law of thermodynamics. When God created us we were perfect beings (genetically perfect), and since then we have been loosing genetic information (entropy). The loss of information doesn't have anything to do with macro-evolution, it has everything to do with micro-evolution / genetic variation. A Wolf can be breed into a chiwawa, but a chiwawa can never be breed into a wolf, because that would be gaining in information. A chiwawa is the result of genetic information lose. Adam was perfect, we are a lower breed of Adam, so it results in us having genetic lose through genetic variation and natural selection. He must have purchased his Ph.D off of Ebay. In fact we have never observed a gain in genetic information through beneficial mutations, the idea is propostrous, where is this information going to come from? Mutations alone must have original information to work with, which we have never observed a mutation that resulted in a gain in information and natural selection can only work with what is present.
Sam,
"A magazine that run by Christians."
thats, and no it is not owned by Christians, its an evolutionist magazine.
"also we should not forget that the 1st and 2nd world wars are the work of the Christians and the killing of millions of Jews is done by them."
What history books are you reading? Hitler wasn't a Christian, he tried to eradicate the Jewish kind because he thought they were a weakness to the human race in his twisted rendition of "natural" selection.
Peoples actions should not represent the Word of God. We are sinners and the furthest thing from perfect. So your idea of trying to bring down the Word of God on the bases of the actions that a select few Christians did seems like an outreach on your behalf to not believe what was written. People that do wrong whether their Christians or not, will have to answer to God for their actions, I cannot judge you and we should not judge the past, thats Gods work. Us as a human race are allowed to have opinions, but we should not hurt others with them.
"WOW, in the British Museum !!!, Four gospels chosen and the rest been burned"
A: I'm reading through all the debate and decided to jump in again. I'm glad my previous comment s about the chonology of the creation (sun, moon being created on day 4) and the length of a "day" created a lot of discussion. It is very interesting to discuss these things. But I believe that we are all trying to defend the complete correctness of books that, simply put, were written by humans. They contain human errors. Did you know that the 1996 Webster's Dictionary had nearly 400 misspellings!!? I believe (and deep down inside you all know this, too) that God has spoken to many people across all of human history. Some of those people wrote down the incidents in the best way they could, with their limited knowledge and skills. Interestingly, neither Mohammad nor Christ actually wrote anything themselves. But their disciples (or in the Case of Mohammad, his secretaries) did. Sometimes the writing was many years later. The Qur'an was not completed until after the death of Mohammad. Of course, Muslims are not allowed to say that it is possible that there are errors or omissions in the Qur'an. But we all know there are errors and omissions in the Old and the New Testaments. It really isn't important whether God created the earth in 6 days or 6 zillion days. We are finite. We are bound by time and space. God is infinite. He is not bound by time nor space.
By the way, in one of the posts it was said that 16 was the normal age when a young man would marry in "Bible times." But that does not seem to be true in the earlier years when people lived longer. Isaac was 40 years old when he married Rebekah (Genesis 25:20). Esau, Isaac's oldest son, was 40 years old when he married. Esau and Jacob were twins. The Bible does not mention how old Jacob was when he married, but it mentions Jacob's marriage occurred after the marriage of Esau.
Ishmael may have been 16 when he and his mother were sent away. But Ishmael lived to be 137 years old. Abraham lived to be 175 years. In that context, a 16-year old might have been considered a child.
So I caution us all to try to be as factual as possible when making statements about things. But then, we are all human.
What is important about His teachings for Christians, Jews, Muslims and all others is that He exists. He has set down some specific rules for us to live by and if we actually spent more time living by the rules and less time debating the insignificant stuff, we might have a wonderful life here instead of the Hell we seem to be putting each other through all the time.
Name:sam •
Date: 04/03/07 15:18
A: Eagle,
You said: "Ishmael may have been 16 when he and his mother were sent away. But Ishmael lived to be 137 years old. Abraham lived to be 175 years. In that context, a 16-year old might have been considered a child."
Mr. Eagle, have You been considered a child by your parents or by your friends or by your teachers or by anyone else when you are a 16 years old, ?.
Did your mother put you on her sholder when you tired while walking with her?
Do you think that a 16 years old male can marry and have a child?
Did you hear about those teen ager who became father at the age of16 ?
Can a woman carry a 16 years old man on her shoulder plus the water and the food and walk for a day or two (until no food or water left) in the semi desert and under the sun ?.
Can the 16 years old boy Ishmael walk on his feet?
I brought this story: "Genesis 21:14 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave [it] unto Hagar, putting [it] on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba."
All that just to show the false stories in the bible. it is false if if you agree or not, and your mentioning that Ishmael lived to be 137 has nothing to do with the false story about him when he was 16 .
Always you try to make an excuse even if it is not logically accepted just to prove you are right , and that is very wrong.
Name:roy •
Date: 04/05/07 12:44
A: Jsm ,
What you were talking about must be another rule of nature rather than this proven Genome research. If you claim that you know more than a professor and his team who is Director of National Human Genome reseach institute ( www.genome.gov) NHGRI Director Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D.
I am doubtful about your diploma rather than theirs.
I suggest study your homework better before going against truth, otherwise it won’t be destined any better than a patch of snow in sunshine.
Name:Perceptions •
Date: 04/05/07 13:41
A: Things were unpercieveable by the Prophets even to whom they were revealed , long time ago, esp. the prophecies for the MODERN TIMES or END TIMES.
It is difficult for people of only a century ago to to have any concept of some technological develodments.So there is a liklihood that that they were misinterpreted or misunderstood in past, and might be fabricated, as well.
Sahih Bukhari, for instance has a lots of objectionable material in it.
Eagle, I support you for the the following , this is excactly Ihow feel.
"What is important about His teachings for Christians, Jews, Muslims and all others is that He exists. He has set down some specific rules for us to live by and if we actually spent more time living by the rules and less time debating the insignificant stuff, we might have a wonderful life here instead of the Hell we seem to be putting each other through all the time. "
Where there are NO RELIGIOUS rules are followed, there are still some RULES & REGULATION, referred as ETHICAL & MORAL CODES .
So scientifically if there is a GOD (Mastermind) controlling the MATERIAL world to go JUST and BALANCED, then there is a SPIRTUAL aspect, no doubt.
And yes we all prefer to FIGHT for beliefs than to improve our actions iwhich we believe in!
Name:hayomtov8 •
Date: 04/12/07 18:15
A: A: HEY GUYS,
RELIGIOUS OR NOT ,BELIEVER OR UNBELIEVER, NATURALIST OR CREATIONIST.COME ON! YOU ARE NOT DOING YOUR HOME WORK . THIS IS A FORGERY! A HOAX ! ALL OF YOU WHO ARE SPEAKING IN FAVOR OF THIS FAKE FRAUDAULENT FIND ARE GOING TO HAVE EGG ON YOUR FACES!! THIS IS GOING TO END UP STRENGTHENING THE CHRISTIANS POSITION WATCH!!! IT IT IS A STRAW DOG FOR SURE. THERE ARE SO MANY RED FLAGS TO THE DISCRIMINATING MIND. MARK MY WORDS!! I PROMISE I WILL POST NO OTHER STATEMENTS UNTIL THAT DAY WHICH HAS ALREADY BEGUN . THE TRICKLE OF DETRACTIONS,RESHUFFLELING,RETRACTIONS WILL BECOME A RAGING RIVER!!!!! ON THAT DAY I WILL POST AGAIN,SO UNTIL THEN KEEP......(FILL IN THE BLANKS WITH WHAT EVER YOU CALL YOURSELVES DOING).
