A: Why are they closing the Tomb forum?This is a very educational and enlightening website with many brilliant posts contributed by people of all walks of life and different religions.I never felt that the intellectual discussions were a threat to anyone's religious views.Well I enjoyed being in contact with everyone here.May your lives be filled with many blessings.My life has been enriched by the knowledge,inspirations and education that I recieved on this forum for the past several months.And from the opinions expressed by everyone who contributed whether we agreed or not.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 08/10/07 2:25
A: Blackdruid
Neither one of those urls work.
Name:Blackdruid •
Date: 08/10/07 3:15
A: Panluna it is the Discovery.com forums that are closing
A: It appears that Discovery is further trying to burying the forum and messing with direct links to it.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 08/10/07 3:59
A: I checked their main website and I didn't find anything.I thought you meant this forum.Believe me there are some very interesting posts and insights and debates.
Welcome to the Forum!!!!(Smile) I'm glad to know that this one will continue.I can breath a sigh of relief.
Name:betty47 •
Date: 08/13/07 4:31
A: The Christians who believe in the literal bible are threatened because they based so much of their belief on the thought that Christ rose from the dead, and invested so much of their time over two centuries in telling people they'd go to hell unless they believed in Christ as God. I wish people would spend more time being better people, fighting poverty, getting rid of filth in TV, music and video games, and stopping drinking/smoking, etc which is what following in Christ's footsteps is suppose to be about. Religion is suppose to be about being a better person. But since we get so wrapped up in whether Christ rose or not, we lose sight of what he really stood for and said.
Name:sam •
Date: 08/13/07 17:43
A: betty47,
A- "The Christians who believe in the literal bible are threatened because they based so much of their belief on the thought that Christ rose from the dead, and invested so much of their time over two centuries in telling people they'd go to hell unless they believed in Christ as God."
---- You are right. The churches in Rome invented the trinity formula and created Jesus the God, and then established themselves as the agent of God on earth [the holiest men on earth!]. It was well thought and planned policy to control the people and keep them hooked to the church and use them the way they wish, and it works well then and now. It seems to me that their people brain washed then filled by lies, and they been instruct not to accept anything not been okayed by them [the churches]. The churches has the upper word to tell the people to what to believe and what not to believe, and they follow them like robots.
B- "I wish people would spend more time being better people, fighting poverty, getting rid of filth in TV, music and video games, and stopping drinking/smoking, etc which is what following in Christ's footsteps is suppose to be about. Religion is suppose to be about being a better person."
---- You are 100% right. But the question is, "are you really truthful ?, and can you be neutral and truthful when the question involved other than the Christians and Jews, or you will be siding with yours against the other no matter what?, even it ended with killing and distruction?. Did you ever thought who is behind all the problems that you mentioned?. If you did your work then you will know. All the bad things that you witness around in the western world are not accepted in Islam [ filth in TV, music and video games, gambling, nudity, killing, drinking/smoking/drugs, etc., are prohibited]. But sorry to say that the westerner are exporting all that under the name of freedom!!!.
betty47, before comming to the forum, i read the news, then i browse around, here a sample:
"A gunman opened fire in the sanctuary of a southwest Missouri church Sunday, killing three people and wounding several others, authorities said."
Killing in the streets, in schools, even in the church!!!. where is the law which protect the people?, while there are many laws to protect the criminals and the crooks. Did you hear about a criminal who get free because he was,'t told about his right!!!! what about the rights of the good and innocents?.
--------------------------
Mel Gibson.
"Gibson faced accusations of anti-Semitism during the publicity storm that surrounded "The Passion of the Christ," which the Anti-Defamation League said portrayed Jews as "bloodthirsty" and "evil."
Pope John Paul II, said about the film " it is as it happen"
" Gibson stated that 3 concerns may have led to his remarks: 1) the 2006 Lebanon War which was in its 17th day 2) the general level of escalating violence in the Middle East as relating to Israel over the last 40 years 3) the Jewish organizations that gave him a "brutal sort of public beating" over the making of The Passion of the Christ where he never heard a "single word of apology".
"During his arrest, Gibson asked the arresting deputy whether he was a Jew and said, "F---ing Jews. The Jews are responsible for all the wars in the world,"
You think he invented things. there is no smoke without a fire.
"Bill O'Reilly described the media response as “sadistic” and said:, "I I think it's crossed the line …...there's some people beating the living daylights out of this guy...these people are vampires, they got blood all over their mouths."
"On the other hand, many have criticized members in the media (such as Bill O'Reilly) for acting apologetic to the racist tirade in a possible effort to deflect any validation of the claims of anti-semitism in Gibson's Passion of the Christ"
People who kills thousands and destroy countries are free to do that, but a person who brings the truth just by words will be fought and destroyed.
-----KILLING A MAN IN THE FOREST (STREETS) IS A BIG CRIME, BUT KILLING PEACEFUL NATION IS A MATTER OF OPINION.
THAT IS THE LAW OF THE JUNGLE, HOPPING ONE DAY PEOPLE COULD UNDERSTAND THAT.
C- But since we get so wrapped up in whether Christ rose or not, we lose sight of what he really stood for and said.
You are right, the followers of Jesus lost their sights from the time when Paul took over and made the teaching a pofitable business :
"I do all thing for the sake of the gospel, SO I MAY BECOME A FELLOW PERTAKER OF IT." 1cor 9:32
"I MAY OFFER THE GOSPEL WITHOUT CHARGE?!!!!!!!" 9:18
That is what Paul's want, ans that what he gets. He is the ruller of the Christian kingdom, the saint of the saints......
God bless you.
Name:betty47 •
Date: 08/14/07 4:08
A: Sam:
I will agree with 90% of what you said. I can't defend Christianity at all. I'm not a fan of Mel Gibson at all either. His anti-Jewish rants are disgusting and his violent movies are horrible. I won't go to them or any R rated movie. They are not in my house. We don't even have HBO in our house because it's filled with dirty movies. But I also can't defend Islam or join it as you try to convince us it's the best way. Islam's violence and hate in the world has been some of the worst mankind has ever known with perhaps the exception of Hitler. And I always have to laugh when I hear Muslims say Islam doesn't allow homosexuality, but most
objective people know Yaser Arafat, a huge hero to the Arabs, was a homosexual so there is plenty of violence, homosexuality and all around evil doings in the Islamic world as well. Most of today's troubles are caused by power hungry Islamic people who want to restore glory to Islam. They don't just want Palestine. They want Spain, Kashmir and the rest of the world. And there in lies the heart of the issue. Christians want power, Muslims want power, Communists want power, etc. It's not about religion and finding a true path for everyone. It's about who is more powerful, which is ironic because these religions all say you are suppose to be humble. Anyway, I'll get off my rant now. Take care.
Name:sam •
Date: 08/14/07 22:58
A: betty47,
The following are the answer for your statments:
A-I will agree with 90% of what you said.
----Thanks, the rest 10% which you did not agree is about Mel Gibson,and you are right. He is a catholic christian and he hates Jews and Muslims like all the rest,, and his films are garbage altogether, and , "The Passion of the Christ," movie which was accepted by the pope show you the truth about the catholic faith and not about Jesus, [I believe that jesus wasn't crucified, but someone else].
B- I can't defend Christianity at all.
------That is because you know their black history, which is filled with hate and killing and distruction. They wrote their own history.
C- But I also can't defend Islam or join it as you try to convince us it's the best way.
------- The truth is , no Christian will defent Islam, and the truth is, they hated Islam and the Muslims for the last 1400 years and hated the Jews for the last 2000 years!!!. Read the history please. (I am not talking about short period- now)
Islam never force people into their religion:
Q-2:256 THERE SHALL BE NO COMPULSION IN ACCEPTANCE OF THE RELIGION.
I hope you understand what you read in this verse. I am sure you read that before in my post. I am not trying to convince anyone, but to bring the truth to the people who claim wrong things, as, "Islam's violence and hate in the world has been some of the worst mankind has ever known with perhaps the exception of Hitler". That will come only from those who know nothing about the history and the truth, and when someone claim such a thing and without real proof (911 is not the history) that persons is no more than a silly and not educated one. so Next when you write please bring example from the history not the story of Bush and Yaser.
Please read the following, and compare:
-"The high point of Islamic culture in Spain occurred in the 10th century. Muslim rulers introduced new crops and efficient irrigation systems, trading and commerce thrived, and mathematics, medicine, and philosophy flourished.....
- Islamic conquest did not involve the systematic conversion of the conquered population to Islam....
- Christians and Jews were recognized under Islam as “peoples of the book.” Christianity and Judaism shared with Islam the tradition of the Old Testament, and Islam considered Jesus Christ a major prophet. Thus, Christians and Jews were free to practice their religion....
- Jews held prominent positions in government, commerce, and the professions under Muslim rule.....
- many Christians in Spain, including Visigothic nobles, converted to Islam. Conversion was commonplace among merchants, large landowners, and other local elites.....
- Spain was wealthy and sophisticated under Islamic rule. Mediterranean trade and cultural exchange flourished. Muslims imported a rich intellectual tradition from the Middle East and North Africa, including knowledge about mathematics, science, and philosophy, and they continued to build upon it in Spain. Crops and farming techniques introduced by the Arabs, including new irrigation practices, led to a remarkable expansion of agriculture. In towns and cities the Muslims constructed magnificent mosques, palaces, and other architectural monuments, many of which still stand today. Outside the cities the mixture of large estates and small farms that existed in Roman times remained largely intact, because Muslim leaders rarely dispossessed landowners. " (those are taken from "Spain history" page10).
THE INQISITION:
-many true and faithful Christians, because of the testimony of enemies, rivals, slaves and other low people--and still less appropriate--without tests of any kind, have been locked up in secular prisons, tortured and condemned like relapsed heretics, deprived of their goods and properties, and given over to the secular arm to be executed, at great danger to their souls, giving a pernicious example and causing scandal to many...
- The number of Jews who left Spain is not even approximately known. Historians of the period give extremely high figures: Juan de Mariana speaks of 800,000 people...
- Many Jews were baptised in the three months before the deadline for expulsion, some 40,000 if one accepts the totals given by Kamen: probably most were to avoid expulsion, rather than a sincere change of faith. These conversos were the principal concern of the Inquisition; continuing to practice Judaism put them at risk of denunciation and trial.
- the Spanish Inquisition worked actively to impede the diffusion of heretical ideas in Spain by producing "Indexes" of prohibited books. at one point or another, were many of the great works of Spanish literature. Also, a number of religious writers who are today considered saints by the Catholic Church . " (TAKEN FROM THE INQUISITION)
Can you see the difference between the Muslim rules and the christians rules ? , Spain is just one example. it is the same all around the world and troughout the history.
You can read a lot of the christian dark history in "the religion wars in Europe", "The first and the second warld wars", "The Holocaust: A History of the Jews of Europe", and many others.
-------------------------
In your post y in "Why is this discovery an assault on Christianity?" Date: 08/13/07 0:19 You said: (I hope you did not forget what you wrote before)
D- "I think Christianity is in crisis mode anyway. It's shrinking in membership, especially across Europe. Islam is growing just about everywhere on the globe."
WHY?, the answer is very simple. as for the shrinking:
- The Christianity is shrinking for three reasons:
1- The people now are more educated than ever before, and they understand science, logic and facts.
2- The people start to wake up and get free from the chains of the churches, and they can differentiate between Jesus teachings and the church false teachings. And they knew that the bible and the gospels are mostly the work of man and full of contradictions and errors.
3- The history books are open now to everyone to read, and the history of Christianity is dark and full of corruptions and atrocities., against all the other people and religions and even they do not respect nature. (I am not talking about the last few years but about nearly 2000 years)
The Islam is growing just about everywhere on the globe. for two reasons:
1- The teaching which is represented by the Quran only never changed, it is the same today as it was 1400 years ago.
2- There is ONLY ONE BOOK, and there is NO contradictions or errors in this holy book, and this book contains scientific infornations which were proven to be true after 1400 years, and many laws. (there is no real scientific information in the othes that been called holy books)
3- The Islam came with a message, to believe in ONE GOD and to believe in ALL the previous messages and messengers ( among them Moses and Jesus), and to respect their followers (Jews & Christians. I think you already forget what you read from fact which I wrote above- Spain)
4- The free and educated people today they look for the truth, and will not follow propaganda full of lies that been given by those who create the hate for nothing except to keep themselves in power.
--------------------------------
E- And I always have to laugh when I hear Muslims say Islam doesn't allow homosexuality,
---- Do you laugh whe you read this in the bible, "You shall not commit adultery." ???
F- but most objective people know Yaser Arafat, a huge hero to the Arabs, was a homosexual so there is plenty of violence, homosexuality and all around evil doings in the Islamic world as well.
----- First that is true about Yaser, You cannot judge Islam by the act of one person , that is a silly thing. Did you forget that there are millions of homosexual christians, and adultery done by popes and bishops and other main figures in your societies, all aroud you even they get married in the churches by your priests, and they are shown on live TV shows, and news!!!.
G- Most of today's troubles are caused by power hungry Islamic people who want to restore glory to Islam.
--- Those are the lies that your people creates, What about the Spanish, Portugese, French, English, Dutch etc, who went to concor the others people and stell their land in Asia and Africa and America, and what about the black people who been driven away from their home to became slave for the Christian , and that was approved by the chuches in America, and they still treated badly even today!!!. what about the American today sending their armies all around the word to ocupy land and stear the resources that belongs to the others. that is the truth but you will come again and deny it !!!.
H- They don't just want Palestine. They want Spain, Kashmir and the rest of the world.
---- That is the most GARBAGE claim that anyone can come with. Do you have a healthy brain?. Do you know how much power that the western christian countries and the easterN ones have. 30+ thousands atom bombs, that is enough to blow the earth, plus the most sophisticated weapons, plus all the technologies needed to make weapons to destroy all life on earth. While the muslim countries had nothing of that sort, and they are mostly poor, So What you said is no more than pure GARBAGE that the churches or whatever who lead you try to fill you empty head with.
I- And there in lies the heart of the issue. Christians want power, Muslims want power, Communists want power, etc.
----- The reality and the truth and the fact shows us today that the American and the Russians, and the Chinese they all in a race for power (watch the new and read the newspapers- CNN, FOX etc.), no one Muslim country going in that race, that is the truth. Open your mind and your eyes, and talk in logic and bring facts, and do not just throw empty words
God bless you.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 08/15/07 13:48
A: Everybody wants to rule the world!!How about we just all share the space equally.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 08/15/07 15:58
A: I'm going to add something to this discussion which I know may not be recieved well but I need to point something out.Paul who never met Jesus and who persecuted the early Judeo-Christians had a core-changing soul experience with a Light-being--perhaps an Angel or even the "ressurected"Jesus and he set the foundation for the early church.Politics and religion walk hand-in-hand for many centuries and still does in many countries today.The dark and bloody history is all in the past.I had ancestors who were burned at the stake and my parents survived WW2 and witnessed the atrocities commited by that madman Hitler and his henchmen--namely his army and most of them rejoined society after the war was over and even Hitler escaped.And yes mistakes were made by everyones' shortsightedness,lack of humanity and power-hungry appetites.And this attitude is still repeated today.If we don't learn the lessons from history we are doomed to repeat them and every generation needs to learn those lessons and pay attention if we hope to evolve and reach our truest spiritual potential.Live and let live peacefully.
The Church is not completely bad.Think of the orphans taken care of by devout nuns.Think of Mother Teresa and her lifework among the poor in Calcutta India.She donated her Noble Peace Prize to help the very poor and ill people living on the streets.There are many individuals who are true Christians who live by the words of Christ in their hearts everyday and do countless good deeds that only God and the Angels know about.As an organized religion Christianity in all it's many branches carries the interpretation of the words of Christ through the works of many individuals starting with Paul's efforts to save the early church.The original followers who knew Jesus were slowly dying out or were persucuted by the Romans who thought that it was insurgence against Rome.The early Christians had to get organised if they wanted to survive.And Paul was a strong leader.He was cannonised as St Paul by the Catholic Church who recognised his dangerous endeavors.It's from differing interpretations of how Christianity should be taught that the many different view points developed into the multiple groups.There are the Catholics,the Orthodox and the Protestants all with their own rules and leaders.Yet they preach the same idea of Hope,Peace,Love and Charity and inspire people to do good deeds with compassion and be a light in this world so that they will be rewarded in the next (why wait for death to solve our problems?)This world is a very difficult place to live in and we need to eradicate barbaric and uncivilised behaviour so that we can achieve the peacefull Kingdom of Heaven on Earth.
As far as Mel Gibson's PASSION OF CHRIST is concerned I felt that the brutality which was emphasized in the movie is the reason why I don't feel that the mortal Jesus survived the crucifixtion or anyone else could have for that matter.I only watched it once but it was very shocking.I think some people may have missed the point or couldn't handle it.That's why there was the anti-semetic reaction.Jesus was Jewish (Christianity did not exist while Jesus was alive )and he was executed because the crowd chose to free another person whom they thought would liberate them from Rome's domination.No one wants to be ruled by a foreign power or forced to believe in an alien religion.Politics and religion should be seperate and people should be free to choose what spiritual path each individual is comfortable following with due respect and unconditional acceptence.
Name:betty47 •
Date: 08/15/07 23:30
A: Thanks, Panluna. Good comments. Sam, I'm not a defender of Christianity so you don't have to go on and on to me about it. And I'm not a defender of Mel Gibson. I don't watch his movies or believe what he believes. I'm one of Christianity's harshest critics, as I believe Jesus words with Judaism is the right way, but no one seems to have that yet. St. Paul may have been a believer, but may not have been right about Jesus. Paul added his own views to what was the early Jesus Movement and we ended up with something entirely different from what I think Jesus wanted. The Jews for Jesus believe in the Trinity and I don't believe in the Trinity. I believe Jesus rejected the pagan 12/25 holiday so I don't celebrate that either. I'm still searching even though I call myself a Catholic.
However, Islam has been violent since it's beginnings and has spread through violence so you're not being objective either. Many Muslims say that Islam only got violent when Israel was started. That's not true. Go to India. It's filled with tombs and shrines of people killed, burned and tortured by Muslims hundreds of years before Israel was born. And if you claim that the Muslims were nice to Jews previously, modern day Muslims have more than changed that now. They kicked most of the Jews out of Arab countries when Israel was born and before 1967, Jews could not pray at the Wailing Wall because Muslims forbid it. Israel welcomed these Jews with open arms, while Arabs let Palestinian refugees wallow in poverty and despair. And the Palestinian suicide bombers and worldwide Islamic violence now can not be justified under any religion especially Islam if it stands for peace. So please stop the hypocrisy. The truth is that there is beauty in Judaism, Christianity and Islam if people practice it.
Name:betty47 •
Date: 08/15/07 23:41
A: Sam,
Islam is growing because of demographics, and because most Islamic countries are ruled by brutal dictators who do not allow freedom of religion or speech. Muslims want to leave their home countries for the freedoms in other countries. Violence grows in countries with dictators. Peace grows in countries with true democracies in almost every case. We don't see Christian countries fighting in Europe anymore. The regions of most world unrest are the Islamic ones. And in these Islamic countries currently, if you are anything other than a Muslim, many times you are killed. Look at Afghanistan. Americans freed them from the Taliban and when one poor person wanted to become a Christian, many Muslims screamed that he should be killed. The last several wars the US entered were to help Mulims like in Bosnia and in Iraq, but because the Muslim sects hate each other even more than they hate Jews and Christians, there is no democracy or peace yet in these areas. They still find stupid excuses to kill their Muslim brothers even when the democratic nations of the world are trying their best to save them.
Name:betty47 •
Date: 08/15/07 23:44
A: R3, such silliness. That's why people are leaving Christianity in droves. It's silliness when you make such comments.
Name:sam •
Date: 08/16/07 0:18
A: Dear Panluna,
" Everybody wants to rule the world!!How about we just all share the space equally."
Any person who read that will agree to it, but when we analyze this statement logically we find it far from the truth and reality.
First, "Everybody wants to rule the world!!", can that be true? anyone think that the people of Lebanon, or Norway, or Sirilanka and the other 200+ poor countries want or can or think of ruling the world?. Let us talk about the recent history ( ruling of Spain - long time ago- I think you read my comparison between the Muslim and the Christian in Spain at that time- it is just one country), but let us bring the recent history England and Frace, Spain and Potugal ruled most of the world, can any one deny this fact, they are not Muslim but all Christians, catholic or anglican, and let us not forget the Russians who ruled many other nation and still tuling and killing people even today. Then came the Germans and the Japanese, and followed by the chinese, then the European Jews with the help of the English and the French came and took other people land [Muslims and Chritians], the killed tens of thousands, and send more than one and half million refugees. do you think those people who lived in Palastine for thothans of years has no right just brcause they are Arab and Muslim/Christian.
Now let us talk common sense, anyone with a clear mind will believe that there is a Muslim county anywhere in this world is able to rule the world. Did we forget the power of the American and their allies, the Russian, the Chinese. Please give me an example of any other country or religion group who had the ability and the power to rule the world.
Those who create and spread this kind of thinking are the westerners and mostly the Jews and the Christians, and that for a political reason , and the smart people know this fact.
Yesterday I watched Larry King on CNN, and inteview with Bill Maher, here few line. {you can read the transcript by going to CNN site}.
KING: Uh-huh.
MAHER: And I kept hearing on the news that three American soldiers had been kidnapped by terrorists.
Well, first of all, they're soldiers.
Can they really be kidnapped?
Isn't that something that happens to civilians? And the words that we use to describe the people that we're fighting over there -- terrorists, insurgents, the enemy. Gunmen I hear. Gunmen. Well, we're kind of gunmen, too.
Aren't they men with guns?
I have a real problem the way Bush lumps the peo -- he said it recently. He said we're fighting the people who attacked us on September 11th because now they're called Al Qaeda in Iraq. Well, that's just a flat out lie.
You know, there's one thing, if you want to say OK, there's some people, 19 guys attacked my country and purposefully hit a building with civilians in it. But now we're in somebody else's country that didn't attack us.
You mean those are the same people?
Those are also terrorists?
You know, I'm not saying these guys are George Washington or Thomas Jefferson, but in the analogy of the American Revolution, we're the British here. We're the superpower that went over to some other country and these guys -- you know, I would think if somebody came to our country and did that, we would defend it the same way.
KING: You're not rooting for them, are you?
MAHER: I'm not rooting for them at all. But I'm not saying that they are necessarily terrorists. Terrorists are people who specifically target civilians. That's the definition of terrorism, especially in our country. We're in their country.
MAHER: They didn't think they needed a plan for Iraq because they're sentimentalists. They thought we're Americans, we're bringing freedom to people, that's all you need. And that's why half the people who were assigned to go over to Iraq didn't even have a passport. They didn't think they needed people with experience over there. A bunch of them were from that Pat Robertson clown college that's -- that has staffed half this Bush administration.
MAHER: They didn't think they needed a plan for Iraq because they're sentimentalists. They thought we're Americans, we're bringing freedom to people, that's all you need. And that's why half the people who were assigned to go over to Iraq didn't even have a passport. They didn't think they needed people with experience over there. A bunch of them were from that Pat Robertson clown college that's -- that has staffed half this Bush administration.
(WOW, FREEDOM TO THE PEOPLE!!! 600 hundred thousand dead, 5 millions refugees. Those the ones who wanted to rule the worlds.)
MAHER: I'm trying. No, I do. I love America. It's Americans I can't stand...
(WHY?..... because he is free and open minded, and tell the truth.)
KING: This is the atheist view of religion.
MAHER: Well, yes. It's certainly the doubter's view. How much of an atheist a person is, even I, who I'm not a believer.
(So, when Maher speaks, at least he is not taking sides, religion to speak)
Second, "How about we just all share the space equally."
That is a dream, beautiful one, but it will not work logically, WHY? because, in reality the big and strong counties, supported by its people (ex. America & the American) , (England & the English) etc., they will take the space they want even if it is not theirs, and let all the world bark.
The united nation is controled by few, other small and poor one can be bought and sold, we witness that all the time and an example the $$$$ given to some country (Turky, Romania etc) to get their support to attack Iraq, while it was all lies brought to the united nation by Bush and Pawell.
What about giving the Arab a space to live, it has been a long time, children are living in a very poor condition, do you think that America with it is power and the othe westen countries cannot solve this small problem which is the major problem in the recent history. Let them give room to those people to live, they are human too. Honest people they should give their voices, otherwise ""How about we just all share the space equally." it became just meaningless words, and just an ink n a paper.
God bless you.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 08/16/07 0:30
A: I guess we're just not ready for one world one spirit.
I guess I'm just a dreamer who believes in the humanrace.
Name:betty47 •
Date: 08/16/07 5:54
A: Sam:
Your anti-semitism and hate mongering is terrible. The Jews did not kill hundreds of thousands and create the refugees, the Arab world did. And your hatred of the west is deplorable. Don't use this site to spread such hate. But if you as a moderate Muslim have such strong feelings it just proves our point, that the Muslim world will not stand anyone else in it.
Name:betty47 •
Date: 08/16/07 6:00
A: Sam,
One last comment....this site is suppose to be about whether it's possible this is Jesus tomb, and not about whether you want to convert the world to Islam.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 08/16/07 16:28
A: Hi Betty47,
Sam and Roy have been sharing insight and verses from their holy book--the Qu'ran.I don't think that they are trying to convert anyone to Islam anymore than I am trying to convert people to practise Metaphysics.If the religion fits practise it ----It's good for the soul.Besides that fact Jesus plays a role in Islam as well as some of the Old Testament prophets included in their teachings.The three main world religions started in the Middle East------Judaism,Christianity and Islam.They are similar in some aspects but with some varying views and interesting enough to learn from the cultures that helped to shape our world history and destiny.I believe that if we take the time to know,understand and accept with respect towards the differences that we just might be able to bring about world peace.The past is over and done with ...time to move on..forgive.To err is human to forgive is divine--let that light shine in this world starting today.
Name:sam •
Date: 08/16/07 21:28
A: bette47,
That is what you said:
" Islam's violence and hate in the world has been some of the worst mankind has ever known with perhaps the exception of Hitler."
Islam's violence!!!. You should grow up. You cannot defferentiate betwee Islam and Muslims in the first place. Islam is a religion, Christianity is a religion, Jewdaism is a religion. and the religion are not people but the teachings, words written in books.
If the Jews and the Christians and the Muslims and the Buddhist commited crimes all around this world, can we blame Moses and Jesus ad Muhammad and Buddha , and God for those crimes?, can we blame the teaching and the books for the crimes that people did?
-"You shall not kill" , those are the word of God.
-"Whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption done on land it is as if he had slain mankind." Those are the word of God too.
Betty47, and Panluna, can you see the difference between the two messages?.
The messages of God came in different time, and for each time God give the law that neede for it, it is exactly as the laws of man, the laws before 100 years ago are changed to reflect with the changing of the world and it is needs.
The first law was simple and did not cover much. as for that law YOU SHALL NOT KILL period, that means you cannot kill those who kill people and bring distruction onto the land!!!.
So, the second law came with more explanation. First, The people who kill people should be punished, and the ones who punished them they are not taken as killer (the judge who sentence a killer and put him to death is not a killer). Second, Under the first law you cannot kill period, you cannot kill Hitler or Stalin or Sadam or any tyrant no matter what. but in the second law, God gave the permission to get rid of those who bring distructuin to the world of God.
Do you agree that the second law is a continuation to the first one but it is more wider in bringing the law according to the time, and to control things as crimes and distruction ?.
betty47, comparing Islam (religion) to Hitler (person) is wrong, and that shows that you are attacking Islam, and that is what is happening today, the fight is against Islam in the first place, and who is behind it????.
You said this:
A- "Your anti-semitism and hate mongering is terrible."
---- That is a lie, and that is what they call today any person who try to bring the truth, (You remeber the time when anyone who ask for equality and fairness in work in America was labeled as a communist- many non communist were harrased and put in jail while asking for their rights). My friend D. Bazzar is a Jew and his wife is Christian, and he is may accountant for 25 years, their children (boy & girl) were taken care of (baby -sitting) by my sister in law (she is shiite and her mother maronite), and my sister in law took the girl for vacation to lebanon for three weeks, and she visited all our families christian/sunni/and shiite, and she had good time among them. We share with The Bazzar's a very good relation, we visit each other , even Mr. Bazzar does the shopping for the family while my brother is out of town, and my brother does the same. We exchange opinion, specially when the news of what is happening in Lebanon, in lebanon in particular he was against the barbaric bombing of the country, and he was ashamed by it, and in the middle east in general, and he believe that the Palestinian had the right to have a land and live in peace (and that agree to what Panluna said, "!!How about we just all share the space equally")
Most of the Jews in Israel and around the world (and some Christians too) will not accept what Panluna come with, and they might call her, " Anti-whatsoever!!!) or "pro- whatsoever!!) . If Mr Bazzar said what he said to us, on this forum , then he will be labaled as "anti-whatsoever ", by the Jews or not. Many Jews in Israel Go to the street and protest against the way thing been hundled by their goverment, Do you ever watch the news?. The honest people they will not accept the humiliation of the other people.
And you said:The Jews did not kill hundreds of thousands and create the refugees, the Arab world did."
--- What a silly thing to say!!!. Some people they say that the "holocaust " did not happen as been claimed, and that is not true, sometime people are stupid how can they not see the truth!!!, 5+million killed and no one can deny that, and you cannot deny what happen to the Palestinian.
My question to you betty 47, "have you been there in 1948?", because I was there, and I was 10 years old, and here what I saw.
I was born in a town called Baalbeck, and I was ten years old when one night we were awakened by loud voices and crying outside our house, and all the family went out, we saw many trucks unloading men women and children. The area in front of our house is huge and used as a parking lot for the tourist who visit the historic Roman temples (Jupiter, Bacchous and Venus) and it is on the edge of the town. And the word spread and many people came. The refugees came packed in the trucks and they have nothing, no food or clothings except the one that they wear, The climate in Baalbeck is known to be cold at night (1300m above sea level)
Everyone in town try to help, food blankets clothing, and they took the children and the elders to their homes, and my family took one family and two girls who were alone (Jamila 7, and Fahima 5, and we learned from the others that they lost their parents and a brother). Next day there was more trucks and more refugees and the day after and the day after... the total of ten thousand came to this town only, and they been given two military compounds (one in the west the other on the east side, and each one had many huge doble story building) , those were built and used by the occupying French army. One room is devided by hunging blankets so two or more families can live in. (Go and check the number from the UNICEF, and also THE REFUGEES conditions, and the dates, and everything you want to know as fact), Jamila & Fahima stayed with us as members of our family until they both get married.
That is what i witnessed, but there was many refugees all around Leabnon, the esimate by the UNICEF was 300,000+, because that organization give some care to them. Check the numbers, from that organization. You never been there and what you said is just big lie.
Your stupid claim that the Arab killed the Palestiniansis far beyound any LOGIC. Fom that time until today they still call themselves Palestinian refugees and if you ask anyone of them he tell you about the members of their families which been killed and their names. Most of the Palestinians do not accept to take anothe notionality, because they want to go back to their homes and lands. when you said the Arab kill them then bring the proof. because I lived around , in lebanon and Syria and Iraq, and Kuwait, and I did not hear anything about the killings, so from where you get your information?. Maybe from Tel-Aviv, or Washington.
The people who throw them out from their land and their homes and their farms came from Germany, and west and East Europe, then they want more land and they advertise and ask their people in Morroco, and Syria and Iraq and Lebanon to sell their homes and businesses so they can build bigger nattion on the mesorry of the others!!! and they were supported by those who you know for sure.
The Jews use to live in all the Arab and Muslim countries free and they were the most richest, and they own big companies, and shops the Jewlery business in Iraq and lebanon and Syria were mostly owned by the Jews (as it is in New York). no one killed a Jew not in Spain and not in Moroco or Libanon, or Iraq or Syria, and not even in Iran, but they were killed in Spain and in Germany and in Russia and everywher else and that is the truth. so do not spread lies.
betty47, I don't think that you understand what Maher said:
"MAHER: I'm not rooting for them at all. But I'm not saying that they are necessarily terrorists (betty47, can you understand that?). Terrorists are people who specifically target civilians. That's the definition of terrorism, especially in our country. We're in their country." (The question here, by Maher, who is the terorist???. Iraqies did not come to America and kill American.)
I hated Saddam, Killing Saddam or Bin-Laden or any other tyrant is permitted by God,s law, because they spread distructions and hatred, but killing hundred of thousand innocent people and destroy factories and bridges and water/ electric plants it is not permitted inGod's laws, but those are the acts of the devils.
betty47, you might say and repeat what the Jews say about claiming that the land belong to them, and God gave it to them.
They wrote their books and they claim a lot, (they claim that Isaac is the first born son To Abraham, while Ishmael is the first born and he was named and blessed by God...to the end of the story),and their books are not God's word, because it is full of contradictions and errors.
The Jews all around the globe claim that they are a pure race!!!, and they are the descendents of David-Abraham (they think that all the other a second class, the same teaching came from Hitle), and so the Arabs, they claim that they are the descendents of Ishmael-Abraham!!!. can we believe that?, in reality that is garbage. there is any pure races on this earth, there is any people better that the others?, are you better than me or Iam better than you in the sight of God?.Can we believe Hitler theory about the pure German race? which led to the killing of millionsof Jews and others. Can we believe that any race is kept pure after thousands of years.
This world is a moulding pot, which all human- kind are poured in and mixed together, by marriage or not, by peace or by wars, by trade or by neighborhood, by love or by hate, by all means, we like it or not.
If you still remember my words, "UNDER THE SUN WE ALL BROTHER AND SISTER IN HUMANITY". Maybe you forgot, but I did not, because that is my believe. If you read all my posts, you will see that I did not say a thing which is not supported by the words of the others. I used the words of Jesus exactly the same as I used the Quran (there is anything wrong with that you tell me?), and I brought example to support my point of view from the Christians who belive in the same things ( I did not bring what the Muslims said). The Bishop, the History, the catholic sites, Bill Maher was the last and he is not of any religion.
My purpose was and will be alway is to bring the truth (I believe in the words of Jesus, so if I see something wrong claimed about Him I deffend Him, can you tell me if I am wrong in doing that? ).
When I read what the Bishop said about the Gospels, I wrote to him a latter of many Pages, telling him that he is wrong. because saying that the Gospel cannot be trusted. is very wrong (can you see where is the wrong?). because saying that, in it is totalities, logically means that everything in the gospels cannot be trusted including the words of Jesus and the word of God, and he is wrong to bring such a claim. for example a preson saying "people are stupid", and that logically means that this person himself is a stupid, because he is one of the people.
The pope never answer back, but I did what suppose to do.
I mentioned that to my frien Joe Trusty on the N.G. forums long time ago. You can check out discusions in that forums
Go to national geographic- gospel of judas forums
then join in - and after you search "THE LOGIC-THE TRUTH" or "Joe Trusty" and you can read all the words and thoughts we excanged and among it a not of my letter to the bishop and his answer.
Here is the address;
Episcopal bishop John S. Spong,
24 Puddingstone rd.,
Morris plains, NJ 07950.
God bless you.
"The former catholic Nun (Mary Ann Collins) said: We need the truth, even when it is painful."
She is right, Many people will not accept the truth for that reason. and you said:
"One last comment....this site is suppose to be about whether it's possible this is Jesus tomb, and not about whether you want to convert the world to Islam."
The majorities of Christians believe that the books which been discovered lately (Judas etc.) do not represent the truth, and discovery of the tomb is a hoax done by SIMCHA and his friends, while the tomb is real and the study done and proven in scientific way. Many will not accept the fact because the feeling that they were humiliated personally, since the things which believe is true became false.
No one said that Simcha is a Jew, and he is anti-christian or anti-Jesus etc.. but if that discovery done by a Muslim or Arab then the thing will be different for sure, and that can be proven too by statistic and by logic!!!.
betty47, can you tell me if this site (the lost tomb of Jesus), which was brought on TV in Canada by the VISION channel and for all the world to watch and to share opinion and thoughts about it in these forums, now is limited in your opinion to only the one you accept, Hindy, buddhist are OK to share but the muslims has no right to share with the discussions?. Do I have to wonder why?, of course not.
I want to share with you what I watch last night on THE VISION CHANNEL: pictures and words, and here some of the words:
Archbishop Clements from a church in Toronto was considered for SAITHOOD, he claimed that God spoke to him, But later on(? I missed the date) he openly spoke that he is a GAY, and the catholic church did not like that, and father KIKIA , cardinal wrote letter to all the churches in Canada not to deal with him, so he open his own church and some folllowed him.... His church closed... between 2000- 2005 , 200 Anglican and other churches in Ontario were closed, because of many scandals, and the luck of supporters!!!.
Check the truth of these information. tel. 1 888 321 2567 or email [email protected] the program came at 8pm
What I brought above are not my words , so please do not blame me and attack me. prove to them that they are wrong, because I do not care if the open or close churches and if father Clements became a saint or not.
Name:sam •
Date: 08/16/07 21:52
A: betty47,
in my last post, I did mention this,
"we excanged and among it a not of my letter to the bishop and his answer."
corrections:
not [note]
and his answer, [that is Joe Trusty's answer and not the bishop].
Name:Panluna •
Date: 08/17/07 14:44
A: Sam,
I've been anti-war my whole life especially since my parents made the special effort to teach each one of my siblings and myself the boundaries and rules of society so we respect each persons ' rights,know our own and learn to forgive when trespassed upon.We may not be devout people who either behave true to the letter of a religion or behave in a hypocratic way but just because I discovered and follow a belief system suitable to myself does not give anyone the right to judge and condemn me.I have always been a pacifists who knows how to defend myself.Just because I believe in world peace does not make me an Anti-Christ since I follow the commandment You shall not kill to the letter and word of God.I believe I offered a solution to the world's problem and that was to BE NOT the instigator (the one who STARTS the trouble)and to practise and respect personal space.Behavioral patterns start in the home.If you teach a child to hate they grow up hating.If you set the rules down and educate open-mindedly a child will grow up understanding humanity and respect all living things God created and live with gratitude and humility.
Our world is facing a natural major event soon that can literally change the face of this globe in the year 2012.the event will be when earth shakes,rattles and rolls as it wobbles towards a new angle on it's axis.We are already witnessing the early signs--namely the extreme changes in weather,the increase activity of volcanoes worldwide and the consequential earthquakes which have occured in multitudes.My apocalytic vision which I recieved last year in a week long dream is starting to come true.Just because I'm "blessed"with psychic ability does not make me an Anti-Christ or Anti-Diety.The only way I see our species surviving this immenent change is that we face this challenge unified.If you are going to judge me Pro-anything--then judge me Pro-World Peace instead of condemning me for my God-given gift.
All through this forum i have defended the Jesus Family Tomb discovery and the evidence that the investigation uncovered.I'm educated enough to be able to accept the importance of this monumental archaeological find but sensitive enough understand how it affects the people who followed a 2000 year old twist of the truth that miraculously became a world religion when it would not be in existence today if it wasn't for St Paul's meeting with a Spirit.The discussions on this forum covers all aspects of viewpoints religious or not---and I defend the right to post them--whether I agree with the statement or not.I am pro-right,pro-freedom and pro-choice.Simply put I have the freedom and the right to make my choices and the freedom and the right to change my own mind.
