Name:FilledwithHope •
Title: Filled with Hope •
Date posted: 04/16/07 16:11
Q: I am Jewish. I obviously don't believe in Jesus even though countless Christians have tried to convert me. But, my great hope is that somehow through this we may learn more abut Jesus so that Christians and Jews can somehow come closer together. I know that may be too much to ask. Millions of Jews have been killed in the name of Christianity. This past weekend was the memorial holiday of those who died in the Holocaust. Jews across the world lit candles in memory of those murdered. The Holocaust happened because Christians allowed it to happen by blaming Jews for killing Jesus over the centuries until the hate built up to such a fury that it allowed millions and millions of innocent Jews to be killed. Today anti-semitism is on the rise throughout the Middle East and Europe. It's even on the rise in the Americas, again spread by people who claim to be good Christians and Muslims. It's spread also when people claim Jews can not get into Heaven unless they believe in Jesus. It's spread in subtle ways when Christians in the name of free speech try to convert people across the land in colleges and neighborhoods. While they don't want to spread anti-semitism, the message is clearly that Judaism is an inferior religion. My prayer and my hope is that we will learn more through this discovery. I believe in my heart that it is the Jesus family tomb. I hope that people will keep open minds on all sides and not try to knock it down because it goes against their Christian faith. Jesus was a Jew. He would have cried and cried over the millions of Jewish deaths in the name of Christianity. After the death of Jesus, people introduced many myths and pagan traditions that were not at all consistent with what Jesus taught and were flat out lies. My hope is that some of these myths may be stripped away and that Christians will get closer to Jews, and that Jews will learn something about Christians too. I know it's a long shot., but we can hope and pray for peace and love which is what Jesus wanted. Let's stop saying Judaism is inferior and let's learn about Jesus, the Jew. That's my hope and my prayer.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 04/16/07 23:26
A: Hi FilledwithHope,
I don't feel that Judaism is an inferior religion at all.Actually it is a very historic one.Also the Christians had played their hand in the destruction of more than just the Jews over the centuries.Many pagans were exacuted during Christianity's growth and power struggle.The most recent atrocoties namely The Holocaust was caused by the Nazis during World War Two.My parents lived in France during the Nazi occupation.
People fear what they don't understand then try to destroy it so they don't get destroyed by it.Or incorperate ideas into their own cultures like including the pagan customs and to convert with intimidation a gullable populace.Finding the Jesus Family Tomb was the best thing that ever happened.It makes Him human.
I hope and pray that at some point in time all humans will learn to get along inspite of differences.
May you find peace and may your future be filled with bright blessings.
Panluna
Name:jsm •
Date: 04/17/07 4:50
A: Filledwithhope,
"Millions of Jews have been killed in the name of Christianity. This past weekend was the memorial holiday of those who died in the Holocaust."
Sorry, but Hitler was the furthest thing from a Christian. Hitler was an evolutionist, along with Staline. Why do you think he tried to eradicate the Jewish kind, he felt they were weak and inferior, taking "natural selection" into his own hands. Survival of the fittest.
“Thus there results the subjection of a number of people under the will, often of only a few persons, a subjection based simply upon the right of the stronger, a right which, as we see in Nature, can be regarded as the sole conceivable right, because it is founded on reason.”
—Adolf Hitler
A review of the writings of Hitler and contemporary German biologists finds that Darwin’s theory and writings had a major influence on Nazi policies…. In the formation of his racial policies, [Hitler] relied heavily upon the Darwinian evolution model, especially the elaborations by Spencer and Haeckel. They culminated in the “final solution,” the extermination of approximately six million Jews and four million other people who belonged to what German scientists judged were “inferior races” (Bergman,1992, p. 109).
Darwin helped to further brutalize mankind through providing scientific justification for immoral acts upon the earth providing no repercussions. Take god out of the picture, and there's nobody to answer to, so you can do whatever you want and not have to pay for it.
Remember the Columbine shooting, notice how the media didn't like to talk much on the fact that they were wearing shirts that read "Natural Selection", and they walked around to each student and asked them if they believed in god, and when they said yes, they shot them. Why do you think a majority of this people kill themselves, or put themselves in positions to be killed, because they feel when they die, their at rest with no repercussions, but thats not the case.
If we keep learning that were just animals, then that is what we'll be and act like.
Name:JMD •
Date: 04/17/07 5:28
A: Filledwith Hope - It is unfortunate that anti-Semitism is on the rise. I've never thought of Judaism as inferior; it's those who are anti-Semitic who think that. (And just remember -nobody can make you feel inferior without your consent, so don't let them get to you.) We have the term Judeo-Christian, so there really should be no reason to not get along. Perhaps this tomb find can help to do that, as you noted?
And as Panluna pointed out, other religions have been destructive, none are innocent of that. Just as they've all been beneficial in other ways.
Mind you, I can certainly understand why that impression of inferiority is given when certain Christians like to arrogantly go around condemning anyone to hell who don't believe as they do, tell them they'll never get to heaven, etc. "Accept Jesus as Savior or else!" Just like they like to claim that the U.S. is a Christian nation, and the founding fathers wanted it that way. Not hardly. But they like to keep that myth alive.
I've told these type of Christians before that if you want to introduce someone to Christianity, to Jesus, you won't get far with threats -what happened to "love others as you love yourself" and "judge ye not, lest ye be judged"?
If you respect other peoples religion -whatever that religion may be- and even show interest in their religion too, well, they might just listen to what you have to say. But if you're going to judge them, and threaten them, no, you likely won't. I believe in tolerance - besides, maybe the Divine puts you on the path that is best for you since we're all individual unique beings; maybe all spiritual paths eventually lead to the One ?
About five years ago, at the company I used to work for, one of my co-workers (a Catholic) came in to work one morning in a real bad mood, and when I asked her what was wrong? she said she got stuck sitting by a radical fundamentalist on the train coming in to work, and he ended up lecturing her about all that she was doing wrong in her life, condemning her and all of that. She was quite the lit wire that morning, as it'd really upset her, even though she tried to tune him out. I told her to not let him bother her; who cares what he thinks?
Then she pointed her finger right at me, and said "you know, you've got a lot of far out ideas, what with all this Gnostic stuff of yours, and I admit some of it is very interesting, but you've never threatened me, never told me I had to believe the same as you."
I told her "well, I think everyone has to make their own way, on their own spiritual path, and besides if I would have threatened you, how much would you have listened to me then?" She said "precious little."
Due to being a 'heretic' [which translates to 'freethinker' and 'nonconformist' -good things to be] I've certainly had a few bigots condemn me to the pits of hell. As though I care. Or better yet, I like it when they tell me to "go to hell." Because my response to that, which always annoys them (try it, and see what I mean), is: "Why? Will you be at home?"
I recall one of the knee-jerk reactionaries, disputing this Jesus Family Tomb from day one, in his opening hysterical rant, just had to point out, that Simcha Jacobovici is a Jew. But, he didn't say anything further about it, which made me wonder why he said this? What was his point? And that got me wondering if he was maybe anti-Semitic? or maybe just had a personal 'bone to pick' with Simcha? In any regard, I then started laughing, because what went through my mind at that moment (and don't take this the wrong way) was this:
"Jesus was a Jew, Simcha is a Jew, it takes a Jew to know a Jew, and it takes one to find one!"
If Simcha wasn't Jewish, maybe the Tomb of Jesus would still be lost? So hurray for Judaism!
Name:jsm •
Date: 04/17/07 5:59
A: JMD,
The point of Christianity is that you cannot change the writings, it states that Jesus is the only way to heaven. As much as you want to believe another religion or try to make your own path as you put it, your still bound by the laws. I'd love to fly without help, but I'm bound by the laws of physics. Can't change that.
"well, I think everyone has to make their own way, on their own spiritual path, and besides if I would have threatened you, how much would you have listened to me then?"
"what happened to "love others as you love yourself" and "judge ye not, lest ye be judged"? "
Don't take it out of context... KJV: Mathew 7:5 "Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."
Its saying not to judge others if you are doing the same thing, god doesn't want us to be hypocrites, he does though what us to help each other with our sins.
Some people are good at missionary work, and some are not. That doesn't change gods word. Sooner or later you have to face the fact that being a Christian isn't all about what you'll receive, but how you can glorify God. Being a Christian is by no means easy.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 04/17/07 15:44
A: Can" we love one another as we love ourselves"?as Jesus taught his followers to forgive.
Hitler wasn't an evolutionists.He was a monster killer and he executed more than just the Hebrews.He and his army killed anyone who stood in their way in their quest for world domination.He ordered the execution of Jews,The Roma,Croations and anyone in the Church who aided in the Resistance, the mentally ill and the Allied soldiers killed in combat.According to war laws to the victor goes the spoils of war.He was after the land and wealth of the sedantary groups and his ethnic cleansing policy --The Ultimate Solution---eliminated all he considered enemies.What's Evolutionary Science got to do with this?It was war.And history repeats its self and do we ever learn the lessons?It's always been this way.I don't condone war --more than anything I would like see world peace-- but it is a tecnique of population control in addition to plagues,climate changes and accidents among other uncontrollable situations.Can we stop warring forever ?That is the humanraces greatest challenge.Is the behaviour pattern so ingrained that we are incapable of breaking from it?Is there a way to modify the Bully-instigator-aggressor behaviour pattern in humans?It's what we are taught as children that counts and influences us as adults.
Remember the words of Jesus the Teacher:"Love one another as you would love thyself.Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.Forgive trespasses".
Peace
Name:jsm •
Date: 04/18/07 3:33
A: FilledwithHope,
"Millions of Jews have been killed in the name of Christianity."
Well maybe the Christian nation of America during WWII should have stayed out of the war then, sorry but there wouldn't be Jews today if it weren't for the many Christians that fought for the Jewish people.
Panluna,
"Hitler wasn't an evolutionists."
Prove it rather then just stating your opinion.
"What's Evolutionary Science got to do with this?"
Why do German scientists of today study the results of Hitlers "natural selection" then? Hundreds of publications have been presented on this topic.
Name:Shlomo •
Date: 04/18/07 4:18
A: When the real Moshiach comes, then there will be a stripping away of mythical veils. The great chasm that currently exisits is straight forward and simple. It is not complex as the worlds intelligencia, political and religious leaders would have you believe.
When any religious leader allows its adherents to create and observe, in the guise of a religion, a system of rituals and practices that satisfy ones primitive urges and addresses their hopelessness or insecurities. Even when these people call upon their adherents to make sacrifices, there is a simulaneous satisfaction of deep primitive feelings. Often this attraction is so subtle that the worshippers, unaccustomed to self-examination, are unaware of its insidious nature.
Name:betty47 •
Date: 04/18/07 6:10
A: FilledwithHope, I second your statement. I hope Jews and Christians grow closer together, but as a Catholic, comments such as those by JSM fill me with saddness and show the arrogance of born again Christians. I am much more comfortable with the comments by JMD who seems to be much more tolerant of others.
Panluna what bravery your family must have shown during WWII in France. I had a great aunt in Poland who was Catholic and survived the death camps. It's true many were killed who were not just Jews, but Jews were the primarily target of Hitler.
JSM, there isn't enough time in the day to repsond to your comment that Christians were not involved in the Holocaust. They certainly were. Christians and the Pope allowed Hitler to happen. And even if you take Hitler out of it, Christians have burned and killed Jewish people for centuries. Your comment that only Jesus allows you to get to heaven is what spreads anti semitism and proves FilledwithHope's point. And Jesus probably wouldn't even agree with it which is what is ironic. This discovery of his tomb just enhances the fact that he lived and died and was buried as a Jew. If he comes back, I'm sure he'll tell us all to study Torah and live as good Jews, and not as pagan worshipping Christians.
In response to your comment that "Christian" America saved the Jews...Christian America turned many Jews away who were trying to enter America and flee Hitler. We entered the war because we were attacked at Pearl Habor, not to save the Jews.
America does not have a religion, and Islam is the fastest growing religion in America, not Christianity.
I will end this post on a more peaceful note. I am in Virginia and will offer a prayer to the families of the victims of Virginia Tech. This incident was tragic. Life can change in a heartbeat. I follow FilledwithHope's thoughts and hope that this horrible incident will unite us and not divide us. God Bless the students of Virginia Tech.
Name:JMD •
Date: 04/18/07 6:43
A: jsm - [re: your 04/17/07 1:59 post]:
I believe in tolerance, you apparently don't. I took the beam out of my eye -the self-righteous one -have you?
And those who chose to go around claiming that what they believe is the only way, the only "laws", should be able to accept that someone else of another religion thus has the exact same right, to tell you that you are wrong and are not following the right way/religion/proper "laws". And all that causes is fighting and tension and no love around at all.
And what about "the good Samaritan"? That shows me that Jesus believes in tolerance -though the self-righteous will never see it that way. "The eyes of the bigot glowed with the austere fire of the fanatic."(from Mists of Avalon, by M.Zimmer-Bradley)
oh boo-hoo, jsm, "being a Christian is by no means easy." Well, being a Jew or a Muslim or a Wiccan or a Pagan or a Gnostic or a Hindu or a Buddhist etc. is by no means always easy, either. You think you got it worse than others, do you? Oh, we all feel so sorry for you.
"I'd love to fly without help, but I'm bound by the laws of physics." That's too bad -the laws of physics sure don't stop my spirit from soaring and flying at times.
You claim that "The point of Christianity is that you cannot change the writings." Oh, really? They've already been changed numerous times, didn't you know that? (and so much for objectivity, as regards the scribes.)
But I'm no scholar, so here's a book for you -by Bart D. Ehrman [chairs the dept. of religious studies at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill]
"Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why"
Here's a few thoughts from his excellent book:
"This book is about ancient manuscripts of the New Testament and the differences found in them, about scribes who copied scripture and sometimes changed it."
"The King James Bible was based on inferior manuscripts that in many cases do not accurately represent the meaning of the original text."
"Scribal errors were so common in antiquity that the author of the Book of Revelation threatened damnation to anyone who 'adds to' or 'takes away' words from the text."
"The anti-Jewishness of some second- and third-century Christian scribes played a role in how the texts of scripture were transmitted..."
"There were other passages in which the anti-Jewish sentiment of early Christian scribes made an impact on the texts they were copying. One of the most significant passages for the eventual rise of anti-Semitism is the scene of Jesus's trial in the Gospel of Matthew...."
"There are some Christian communities that stress the importance of women and allow them to play significant roles in the church, and there are others that believe women must be silent and subservient to the men of the community. The scribes who were copying the texts that later became scripture were obviously involved in these debates. . . passages were changed to reflect the views of the scribes who were reproducing them. In almost every instance in which a change of this sort occurs, the TEXT is CHANGED in ORDER to LIMIT the ROLE of WOMEN and to MINIMIZE THEIR IMPORTANCE to the Christian movement. ..." [emphasis mine!]
"...In short, there were debates in the early centuries of the church over the role of women, and on occasion these debates spilled over into the textual transmission of the New Testament itself, as scribes sometimes changed their texts in order to make them coincide more closely with the scribes' own sense of the (limited) role of women in the church."
"...Not only do we not have the originals, [NT manuscripts], we don't have the first copies of the originals. We don't even have copies of the copies of the originals, or copies of the copies of the copies of the originals. What we have are copies made later - much later. In most instances, they are copies made many centuries later. And these copies all differ from one another, in many thousands of places. . . . these copies differ from one another in so many places that we don't even know how many differences there are. Possibly it is easiest to put in comparative terms: there are more differences among our manuscripts than there are words in the New Testament."
So much for "you cannot change the writings." Was already done long ago, over and over again.
[By the way, just to note, it's great that there are 'real' men out there, like Ehrman, who openly admit to bias/discrimination against women and don't try to hide it.]
"Rather than throw up our hands at this ominous glorification of intolerance in conservative churches, sometimes preached on a spiritual level but nearly always enacted at the physical/political level, we'd better discover and understand how their leaders are persuading people to promote curbs on freedom and perpetual "culture war". Only then can we appeal to the moderates within those churches who've gotten swept up into a tide of political antagonism with which they're not really comfortable. There's a new code for intolerance..."
[Dr. Teresa Whitehurst, January/2005, 'Making Tolerance a Sin; Intolerance a Virtue: The Intolerance of Christian Conservatives']
Name:jsm •
Date: 04/18/07 6:58
A: betty47,
"Christians and the Pope allowed Hitler to happen."
For starters the pope isn't a Christian, and second, support your idea
"Christians have burned and killed Jewish people for centuries."
The bible didn't tell them to. Thats their own actions, you cannot stereotype a whole group, by some that were misguided.
"Your comment that only Jesus allows you to get to heaven is what spreads antisemitism and proves FilledwithHope's point."
I only look to spread truth
"And Jesus probably wouldn't even agree with it which is what is ironic."
John 14:6 "I am the way the truth and the life; no man cometh unto the Father but by me."
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that who should ever believe in him shall not die, but have everlasting life"
I swear you just talk for talking sake, do you really understand the discussions on this board? You come up with some real ignorant comments, have you ever studied anything you talk about?
"This discovery of his tomb just enhances the fact that he lived and died and was buried as a Jew."
This discovery doesn't enhance anything. Its not proven. I'm glad its good enough for you, but I believe in real evidence, not probabilities.
"If he comes back, I'm sure he'll tell us all to study Torah and live as good Jews, and not as pagan worshipping Christians."
Yeah... considering Christians worship Christ. Hence the name.
"America does not have a religion, and Islam is the fastest growing religion in America, not Christianity"
Was that to hurt my feelings?
Name:jsm •
Date: 04/18/07 7:15
A: JMD,
"oh boo-hoo, jsm, "being a Christian is by no means easy." Well, being a Jew or a Muslim or a Wiccan or a Pagan or a Gnostic or a Hindu or a Buddhist etc. is by no means always easy, either. You think you got it worse than others, do you? Oh, we all feel so sorry for you."
I wasn't looking for sympathy, I was stating the fact why a lot of Christians don't sugar coat things when they do missions work. Cause the truth is that if they don't believe in Christ, they will go to hell. Being born again isn't an easy task. I wasn't talking about me, I was talking about Christianity in general.
"I'd love to fly without help, but I'm bound by the laws of physics." That's too bad -the laws of physics sure don't stop my spirit from soaring and flying at times."
haha... I can tell you live in your imagination
"You claim that "The point of Christianity is that you cannot change the writings." Oh, really? They've already been changed numerous times, didn't you know that? (and so much for objectivity, as regards the scribes.)"
We have all the original manuscripts... All it takes is translating it into English.
"The King James Bible was based on inferior manuscripts that in many cases do not accurately represent the meaning of the original text."
I thought you said you weren't a scholar? The old testament were translated from the Hebrew texts and the New testament were translated from the Greek.
"Scribal errors were so common in antiquity that the author of the Book of Revelation threatened damnation to anyone who 'adds to' or 'takes away' words from the text."
Nice theory, but prove it, or submit some type of evidence other then your opinion.
"So much for "you cannot change the writings." Was already done long ago, over and over again. "
Are you going to submit evidence or proof? rather then just copying others people opinions of their websites? Oh thats right, your not a scholar. So why should I even listen to you? Everything I state about religion is just my opinion because I am not a scholar, I am a scientist. Your getting all worked up over my opinion.
Name:JMD •
Date: 04/18/07 7:32
A: *laughing* I'm not worked up about your opinion at all! I think it's really the other way around.
And no, don't listen to me as I'm no scholar - though I've done a bit of research on this myself. But, I like to quote scholars, to back up arguments - what's wrong with that? But don't read the book - it's likely far over your head, anyway. Ah, so ignorance is bliss for you; ah well, each to their own.
Name:jsm •
Date: 04/18/07 7:43
A: JMD,
"And no, don't listen to me as I'm no scholar - though I've done a bit of research on this myself."
Done research... or read other peoples research?
"But don't read the book - it's likely far over your head, anyway."
Probably
So since we got out of the way that I'm uneducated, mind telling me what graduate school you went to and what you received your M.S. or Ph.D in?
Name:Red •
Date: 04/18/07 8:43
A: Jsm you speak a double standard of the highest order. You say Darwinism justifies imoral acts through "no reprecussions'. Historically, Christianity Justifies the same acts through "forgivness". Religion has been just as evil and torrid as any other philosophy, only diffrence is whose authority it is justified by.
You dont need to apologize for history. Hitler believed in God and makes no contention otherwise in his books Vol1&vol 2, and any of his speeches. You can believe he was only 'using christains to carry out his evil Darwin Plans' all you want. It fits your Agenda. After All, you dont want a saint like Hitler Identifiing with your religion. This I can understand. You might lose bussness.
Darwinism had nothing to do with the Killings of those Children at Columbine. It had to do with a couple of punks that had IDENTITY disorders along with attention deficits, intermingled with the financial arrogance and resources to clue one out. Similar to the "Night Stalker" murderer who wore the AC/DC shirt. The Band had nothing to do with The murders, it was a NUTJOB that sought an Identity and created one, although illogical and preverse. Damaged Brain Material does these things. A normal brain doesnt.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 04/18/07 14:46
A: Hi JSM,
I view Hitler's past atrocities in a political view rather than a scientific view.I never thought of natural selection in light of war tactics.How sophisticated and backwards we are---what a paradox!Politics picks strange bedfellows! Hitler was an atheist and ironicly one of his grandparents was half Jewish.Also the Pope is head of the Catholic Church which makes him a Christian.No body ALLOWED Hitler to commit ethnic cleansing as people were unaware of what was going on at that time--with the exceptions of the Nazis who carried out the orders for systimatic extermination.The Jews were rounded up but no one knew where they were being brought to until a spy in the Nazi organisation revealed what was going on.Then word got around and concern grew for who would be next..To me it's still political.True the United States entered the war after the attack on Pearl Harbor but it was more than just Christians in the US's military that was sent over there.
Politics and religion are seperate in this country And wars fought behind a religious shield are just useing a unting tactic because it's just our way of justifying our behaviour(under God) and the need to eliminate the foe who we view as threat.THOU SHALT NOT KILL is one of the Ten Commandments.If we taught our children it's ok to defend yourself just don't cause the trouble (instigate) there would less negative behaviour and killings.Tolerance is taught in the home environment when we teach our children respect.
Name:betty47 •
Date: 04/18/07 17:43
A: One thing I want to add to my above posts, I realize there were many brave Christians during WWII who did a lot to try to save many Jewish individuals. I don't want to discount them at all. They put their lives on the line to help Jews. But anti-semitism itself was born out of the blood libel and the chant by Christians over hundreds of years that Jews killed Jesus. It's only in recently history after WWII, during the last few decades, that modern Christians have backed off of those claims.
JSM, when you say that the Pope is not a Christian, you really take away from your credibility to argue your points. Go tell the Pope he's not a Christian. See what he says. The concept is not rational.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 04/18/07 17:53
A: Hi Betty47,
It was Roman law that executed Jesus resulting from the choice of Barrabas's follwers to spare Barabbas.Or was it the fulfillment of the Messianic prophecies.
Name:betty47 •
Date: 04/18/07 18:08
A: Thanks, Panluna. You have some wonderful posts. Very interesting.
Name:betty47 •
Date: 04/18/07 18:57
A: JSM ="John 14:6 "I am the way the truth and the life; no man cometh unto the Father but by me."
This passage that you site, has been one of the most debated passages in all of Christianity. Did Jesus mean that he's the only path to truth and life? Modern Christians would say yes, but I wonder what all those books that were burnt would say. Was this passage taken out of context? Could it mean that Jesus is one way, but there are other ways too? Could it mean that the light is in all of us? Everyone has an opinion it seems on this. I wonder.......
Name:jsm •
Date: 04/18/07 21:56
A: Red,
"Jsm you speak a double standard of the highest order. You say Darwinism justifies imoral acts through "no reprecussions'. Historically, Christianity Justifies the same acts through "forgivness". Religion has been just as evil and torrid as any other philosophy, only diffrence is whose authority it is justified by."
I don't deny there have been many evil acts by Christians, but the bible doesn't tell them to do that, God doesn't tell them to do that, thats their own actions. They cannot justify their acts from the bible. Your just looking for an excuse to not believe in Gods word. There are millions of good Christians, you just decide to look at the few bad ones.
"You dont need to apologize for history. Hitler believed in God and makes no contention otherwise in his books Vol1&vol 2, and any of his speeches. You can believe he was only 'using christains to carry out his evil Darwin Plans' all you want. It fits your Agenda. After All, you dont want a saint like Hitler Identifiing with your religion. This I can understand. You might lose bussness."
There are plenty of people you believe in God and Evolution at the same time. There is no doubt about it that Hitler tried to use his own version of Natural Selection. There are hundreds of publications by German Scientists on this article. If you'd like to read them I can send you links.
"Darwinism had nothing to do with the Killings of those Children at Columbine. It had to do with a couple of punks that had IDENTITY disorders along with attention deficits, intermingled with the financial arrogance and resources to clue one out. Similar to the "Night Stalker" murderer who wore the AC/DC shirt. The Band had nothing to do with The murders, it was a NUTJOB that sought an Identity and created one, although illogical and preverse. Damaged Brain Material does these things. A normal brain doesnt."
I don't know about you, but I've never seen Natural Selection t-shirts at wal-mart. Not only that, but they both had them on. Guess they wanted to match? The police released the journals of the two killers and their journals were full of praises of Darwinism, fascinations of survival of the fittest, and they were most intrigued by the idea of natural selection. They used their own twisted version of natural selection to carry out their acts. Why do you think they asked the students if they believed in god, and if they did they shot them. MSNBC has a program on about 4 months ago about this, why the media never brought out this information as motive.
Panluna,
"THOU SHALT NOT KILL is one of the Ten Commandments."
I totally agree, I don't condone killing of any kind. And Christians should not try to justify killing.
betty47,
"JSM, when you say that the Pope is not a Christian, you really take away from your credibility to argue your points. Go tell the Pope he's not a Christian. See what he says. The concept is not rational."
Article from carm.org
Are Roman Catholics Christians? They are if they have trusted in Jesus alone for the forgiveness of their sins. However, if they believe that they are saved by God's grace and their works, then they are not saved -- even if they believe their works are done by God's grace -- since they then deny the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice.
Being a Christian does not mean being a member of the Roman Catholic Church. It means being a member of the body of Christ which is accomplished by faith and trust in Jesus alone for the forgiveness of your sins. It means that you do not add your works to His work. Sincerity doesn't forgive sins. Membership in a church doesn't forgive sins. Doing works of penance doesn't forgive sins. Praying to Mary doesn't forgive sins. Forgiveness is received in the faithful trust and acceptance of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. You must trust Jesus, God in flesh, for the forgiveness of sins, not a man made ritual and certainly not the catholic saints. Even though Roman Catholic Church affirms the Trinity, the deity of Christ, and His physical resurrection, it greatly errs in its doctrine of salvation by adding works to salvation.
Catholics who follow the official teaching of Rome are not Christians by biblical standards.
betty47,
"This passage that you site, has been one of the most debated passages in all of Christianity. Did Jesus mean that he's the only path to truth and life? Modern Christians would say yes, but I wonder what all those books that were burnt would say. Was this passage taken out of context? Could it mean that Jesus is one way, but there are other ways too? Could it mean that the light is in all of us? Everyone has an opinion it seems on this. I wonder......."
Considering that the verse is backed up with about 60 more verses. If you'd like I could list them for you. If you take that one verse completely out of context, it could mean anything, your right. But it is completely support by other verses. I swear you try your best not to think the bible is creditable. You believe any one person who come up with some nonsense about it being contradictory. You don't believe in UFO's do you? And what books being burned are you talking about? Can't wait to hear this one... another unsupported theory that your gonna send me copied information from somebody's Geocities site. When you start supporting your theory's with facts, then I'll take you seriously. I couldn't care if you take me seriously, I'm just having fun on a message board.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 04/18/07 23:07
A: Please do not call that monster-madman Hitler a Saint or anyone who is a mass-murderer for that matter.They are a far cry from anyone good..The Saints of the Catholic Church were good,humble and devout people devoted to doing God's work in this world bringing Hope,Faith and Charity,.and many of them suffered all their lives.And NO religion should be used to justify a war.Why do we fight over the Dieties?Is it to gain favor with them?
As far as John 14:6 goes I feel that Jesus was enlightened and He shared His ideas with His group.He was a pacifist.There are other paths. Most people who seek those find parallel lines filled with similar ideas that lead to the same conclusion.Since He was a Teacher he wanted His people to listen to His words for comfort.Those were very scary times!! And knowing the Messianic prophecies I just don't understand why He endangered Himself and His family by going to Judea.He could have lived somewhere else,especially after His parents and His narrow escape to India (some accounts say Egypt,which was a Roman province at that time and they could have been found there)after the Nativity when the Romans were hunting down the newborn King and put to death the first born male of every household.They were afraid of a prophecy:the king Of Kings who would rule the world thus destroying the Roman Empire,which the Christians succeeded doing 312 years later by convincing Constatine that this was the Way when a miraculous sign appeared in the sky before a major battle after Constitine prayed to the New God of the early Christians.
It is a diffucult verse to figure out but I feel that He offered it as guidance for His people.Did He know the Messianic prophecies and tried to fulfill them or did every event recorded in His Life happen just by chance?
Name:Panluna •
Date: 04/18/07 23:20
A: JSM,
I believe UFOs exist.Remember Enoch?There is more to that story.....
Name:Panluna •
Date: 04/18/07 23:28
A: If Christianity did not assimilate the pagan customs there would be no Christmas tree(German idea)gift-giving(Roman custom) or that darn fruit cake which just found its way back to me after making the rounds all these years.Who's custom was that????
Name:jsm •
Date: 04/19/07 0:05
A: Panluna,
"Please do not call that monster-madman Hitler a Saint or anyone who is a mass-murderer for that matter."
I didn't... Where did I?
Jeremiah 10:2-4
2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 04/19/07 0:29
A: JSM, it was in the third pararagh on today's notice to Red."After all you don't want a saint like Hitler...."
Name:jsm •
Date: 04/19/07 3:48
A: Panluna,
"JSM, it was in the third pararagh on today's notice to Red."After all you don't want a saint like Hitler...."
That whole paragraph is what red wrote, I put things that people say in quotes then underneath them I reply. Wow....
Name:onewhoknows •
Date: 04/19/07 4:56
A: FilledwithHope, Please don't judge Christians by Hitler and the Nazis. They were evil and of the Antichrist/Satan. As far as blaming the Jews for killing Jesus, anyone who studies the Bible knows that it was an international affair. Jews AND Gentiles (Romans). If Christians blame the Jews only, it is out of ignorance, and I apologize for that ignorance.
As a Christian I believe that the only way to eternal life is through Jesus Christ. Why? Because He said so. I didn't make those rules, but we believe that the God of the Jews (Jehovah) did. I believe in the resurrection and point scientific people to the Shroud of Turin and its ongoing, amazing research. The Shroud's data far outweighs the JFT theory that you have accepted, and you really need to study it to find out the truth for yourself.
It's not that Christians think we are superior--- at least we shouldn't, but I think PRIDE is a problem for ALL human beings, and the cause of many atrocities. The Bible says that "there is a way that seems right to man, but the end of it is death", (that comes from the Old Testament). God has provided an escape from death and hopelessness through Jesus Christ, but people refuse to believe it, and many rejoice when they think that His bones have been found in a box.
Do I hate those people who don't agree with me? NO, because Christ taught us to love everyone, even our enemies. But WE will be hated and persecuted for proclaiming this message, as many of our predecessors. I am grateful that I (and you, also) have the freedom to worship as we want in this country! However, today's world wants us all to blend together and if we don't , there could be persecution for us, just as there were for the Jews in WWII.
So what is the answer for all religions to live in peace? Here is a start: Everyone should have the freedom to worship, the freedom to speak, the freedom to CHANGE their religion if they so desire, and the freedom from persecution because of their religion. Peace - Shalom
Name:jsm •
Date: 04/19/07 5:06
A: onewhoknows,
"God has provided an escape from death and hopelessness through Jesus Christ, but people refuse to believe it, and many rejoice when they think that His bones have been found in a box."
Its sad, people rejoice as if he were evil. The greatest gift to humans so that we can escape death and people want to throw the gift away for mere bad science. I don't believe that people believe in this find because of the science, but because they don't want to believe Jesus is God.
Name:Shlomo •
Date: 04/19/07 6:07
A: What does the hebrew [ aramaic ] word "satan" mean? Is it an entity or a force for equalization of "free will?"
Name:Shlomo •
Date: 04/19/07 6:38
A: If G_d made himself mortal, this would be an imperfect state and a "Perfect Being" would not and could not do so. Blind or emotional faith requires no knowledge. Blind or emotional Faith is based on words of a prophet. Basing a man above a mere mortal with flaws to one who is angelic is an error. Man is not elevated to impossible heights of healers, miracle workers or unaffected by death. Man is mortal, he lives and dies, he can not do without G_D's intervention. Man has the rational faculty to understand this.
Mans free wheeling emotions seek no code at all and not in contradiction to it, man also seeks other emotional satisfaction with no moral security, with no ability or demand for intelligent explanation. Man is attracted to alien religions which were created by those with infantile minds [ i.e. the idea of G_d inseminating a mortal creates a deus focia
( man-god ) worship ]. Contradictions are paramount and a violation of the first and second commandment exists.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 04/19/07 15:49
A: Hi Shlomo,
The word satan originally could have been interchanged with the desert words for liar and cheat or theif.Later on it evolved into an entity representing Evil.By the way the pagans and Wiccans do not worship the Devil/Satan image as so commonly thought.Someone had to take the bad rap so the pagans who worship nature became the scapegoats.Even in this day and age they are very misunderstood.The Devil image seen today in art was based on the image of the great god Pan and the Satyrs.Pan's history can be traced all the way from ancient India to the Celts of pre-Roman occupation.Mostly though he was worshipped in ancient Greece as a woodland Diety.There are many myths about him and he is still a common theme in literature.The word Occult means hidden knowledge and if that knowledge is misused it backfires.Hitler found that out when he tampered with the prophecies of Nastrodamus and had his personal astrologer executed because he didn't like the forcast for that day.Some forces just shouldn't be tampered with.Lucifer looks out for his own.He is known as the son of The Morning Star(Venus).His story originates in Genesis.There are two sides to the God-and -Devil coin.Which side is he?He can be both.It's in his true nature and ours.Free will lets us choose between commiting good or bad acts and fate is the result of those consequences.
Is Aramaic still spoken?And is it similar to the Hebrew language?I noticed the letters are different in the two alphabets.
Name:jsm •
Date: 04/19/07 17:21
A: Shlomo,
"If G_d made himself mortal, this would be an imperfect state and a "Perfect Being" would not and could not do so."
Thats why it was a virgin birth
"Man is attracted to alien religions which were created by those with infantile minds [ i.e. the idea of G_d inseminating a mortal creates a deus focia ( man-god ) worship ]. Contradictions are paramount and a violation of the first and second commandment exists."
The father, the son, and the holy spirit, are the same entity.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 04/19/07 17:47
A: About that fruitcake:I dub it the boomerang -karma cake"what goes around comes around."It is a family heirloom that I am leaving in my will to my kids--and they thought I was leaving them my money.If they're smart they will donate it to the Smithsonian as the most traveled fruitcake on the planet.The reason why it's passed around so much is because it's the thought that counts.The reason we don't eat it is because you can get a sugar-rush that can last up to a month just from one slice!!Any scientist here willing to do a chemical analysis on my phantom fruitcake?
Name:Shlomo •
Date: 04/20/07 3:12
A: Panluna,
Most semitic languages came from or derived from Aramaic. Before 13th century b.c. Hebrew was a sinaitic script. Then became an early Aramaic in 10th century, then 8th century to Phoenecian/Caananite. Also Arabic came late and adopted from early Aramaic via Nabatian.
Thanks for the reply to the word "satan." There is a little more to it. I was thinking you would hit on the nail. You were close.
Name:Todd •
Date: 04/20/07 3:42
A: Filledwithhope,
Wow,
Christians are responsible for Holocaust and millions of Jews deaths! Christians allowed it to happen! Sorry, but the Nazi’s were responsible mainly Hitler, Himmler, and the German people.
“To make for smoother intra-governmental cooperation in the implementation of this "Final Solution" to the "Jewish Question", the Wannsee Conference was held near Berlin On January 20, 1942 with the participation of fifteen senior officials, led by Reinhard Heydrich and Adolf Eichmann, the records of which provide the best evidence of the central planning of the Holocaust.”
Apathy on the part of people too afraid or unwilling to stand up to the Nazi‘s. Did The USA know prior to involvement in WWII, I’ve heard arguments either way.
FDR faced an enormous separatist movement here in the US but secretly and illegally(unconstitutionally) help England by send military ships and equipment.
Here again is that little word Apathy on the part of the people of the USA!!!
Here’s some stats for you so you know that the Jews weren‘t the only ones being persecuted by the Nazi‘s:
Death Tolls
Estimates place total number of Polish deaths around 5.4mln. 1.8 – 1.9 million Christian Poles and other (non-Jewish) Poles (estimate includes civilians killed as a result of Nazi aggression and occupation but does not include the military casualties of Nazi aggression or the victims of the Soviet occupation of eastern Poland and of deportations to Central Asia and Siberia)
200,000 – 800,000 Roma & Sinti (Gypsies)
200,000 – 300,000 people with disabilities
80,000-200,000 European Freemasons
100,000 communists
10,000 – 25,000 homosexual men, by the way they were treated as badly by the Jews in the concentration camps.
2,500 – 5,000 Jehovah’s Witnesses
3.5 – 6 million other Slavic civilians
2.5 – 4 million Soviet POWs
1 – 1.5 million political dissidents
The Nazis' ally in Croatia — conducted its own campaign of mass extermination against the Serbs in the areas which it controlled, resulting in the deaths of 500,000 – 1.2 million Serbs
In an effort to save space here and stay on topic I’ll list just a few Religious Figures. If I listed the occupied Countries, non-occupied Countries and Individuals who risked their lives to help thwart, hide, refuse to exile, and generally resist the Nazi’s I’d have pages upon pages.
This was copied from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_who-_assisted_Jews_during_the_Holocaust
Religiou-s- figures
Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Zante, who, when ordered by the Axis occupying forces to submit a list of all Jews on the island, submitted a document bearing just two names: his own and the Mayor's. Consequently all 275 Zante Jews were saved.
Archbishop Damaskinos - Archbishop of Athens during the German occupation. He formally protested the deportation of Jews and quietly ordered churches under his jurisdiction to issue fake Christian baptismal certificates to Jews fleeing the Nazis. Thousands of Greek Jews in and around Athens were thus able to claim that they were Christian and were thus saved.
Father Alfred Delp S.J., an agent who helped Jews escape to Switzerland while serving as a minister in suburban Munich; also involved with the Kreisau Circle.
Maximilian Kolbe - Polish Conventual Franciscan friar. During the Second World War, in the friary, Kolbe provided shelter to people from Greater Poland, including 2,000 Jews. He was also active as a radio amateur, vilifying Nazi activities through his reports.
Bernhard Lichtenberg - German Catholic priest at Berlin's Cathedral. Sent to Dachau because he prayed for Jews at Evening Prayer.
Hugh O'Flaherty - an Irish Catholic priest who saved about 4,000 Allied soldiers and Jews; known as the "Scarlet Pimpernel of the Vatican". Retold in the film The Scarlet and the Black.
This one blew me away!!Pope Pius XII - during the German occupation of Rome he organised that Italian Jews would be concealed in convents and monasteries. Up to 1,000 Jews were even concealed at the Pope's Summer Residence Castel Gandolfo.
Sára Salkaházi - a Hungarian Roman Catholic Sister who sheltered an estimated 100 Jews in Budapest.
Andrey Sheptytsky - Metropolitan Archbishop of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, harbored hundreds of Jews in his residence and in Greek Catholic monasteries. He also issued the pastoral letter, "Thou Shalt Not Kill," to protest Nazi atrocities.
The Sisters of Social Service, who saved thousands of Hungarian Jews; included Sister Sara Salkahazi, recognized by Yad Vashem as well as beatified.
Archbishop Stefan of Sofia - Bishop of Sofia and Exarch of Bulgaria.
Andre Trocmé and Magda Trocmé - A French pastor and his wife who led the Le Chambon-sur-Lignon village movement that saved 3,000-5,000 Jews.
To make a blanket statement like yours about Christians is the Exact same thing as Hitler saying all the problems the German people had was because of the Jews.
I agree that Jesus was a Jew I have no problem with that and from everything I’ve read he was trying to reform the Jewish religion or stop what he saw as the corruption of it more so than starting a new one.
When it was heard that Jesus had overturned the tables of the money-changers and those selling sacrificial animals in the temple:
Mark 11:18 The chief priests and the teachers of the law heard this and began looking for a way to kill him, for they feared him, because the whole crowd was amazed at his teaching. (NIV)
Matt 26:3-4
3 Then the chief priests and the elders of the people assembled in the palace of the high priest, whose name was Caiaphas, 4 and they plotted to arrest Jesus in some sly way and kill him. (NIV)
Mark 3:6 Then the Pharisees went out and began to plot with the Herodians how they might kill Jesus. (NIV)
Matt 26:59 The chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were looking for false evidence against Jesus so that they could put him to death. (NIV)
A select few were responsible for Jesus’ death. Not the entire Jewish people from that day till now. Given the fact he was Crucified, that by itself tells me it was the Romans.
I think that respect for all people regardless of Race, Religion, Nationality, Sexuality, or any other thing should be secondary to who the person is on a human level. Even Christians.
I don’t consider myself anything other than a human being. So maybe I don’t get wrapped up in the elitist “my religion is better than yours” crap. I’m a monotheist who thinks Jesus said some great things. Too many people forget His sayings and concentrate on the Self-Serving Churches/Religions that sprung up in his name.
I agree with you about hate crimes being on the rise and I think Jesus wouldn't even be accepted in churches devoted to his name.
Consider this: I live in a very small town in Northern Michigan (stereotype would be Redneck) and I am teaching my childern to respect ALL people and to consider differing points of views before judging people.
So maybe it starts with us....
“they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character” MLK jr
Todd
Name:Shlomo •
Date: 04/20/07 3:57
A: jsm,
You missed my point. The notion of G_d becoming physical is an impossibility. G_d who created all of physical existence, is the One Being not subject those laws. G_d governs all physical matter. To suggest G_d can become physical [ son ] and be subject to his own physical laws means that he does not control the universe, this is a contradiction and impossibility and makes G_d finite instead of infinite.
Read Yeshayahu 7 in the original hebrew language as far as a virgin birth goes. The hebrew word is not "virgin," but "young lady"(wife) which is specific.
Name:jsm •
Date: 04/20/07 4:18
A: Shlomo,
Why would god be bound by human laws if he became human form? He is one and three at the same time, he was the son at the same time as being the father, he was the holy spirit at the same time as being the son. That is the whole idea of the trinity.
The father, the son, and the holy spirit were together in the beginning, and one at the same time.
John 5:46-47 "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”"
Moses wrote genesis, if you don't believe what moses wrote in Genesis, then you cannot believe what Jesus says. He is God
Name:Shlomo •
Date: 04/20/07 4:37
A: jsm,
I know you mean well, but I suggest you study deeper and use the logic and reasoning that was given to us by G_d. Have you tried to verify if there were two Beth-lechems exisiting during Jesus time? There were two, one in Zebullun 7 miles west of Nazareth and one in Judah over 100 miles away. Which one did Jesus come from? Challenge the new covenant in all its aspects and you will be amazed at what you learn.
I can not, with all due respect, believe Jesus was g_d.
Name:jsm •
Date: 04/20/07 4:44
A: Shlomo,
I'm a bio-molecular physicist. I'm just stating my faith, I'm not trying to change your mind. I don't know Greek or Hebrew so I cannot study the original manuscripts, I leave that up to other Ph.D's. If you'd like I can ask a couple of my friends that do get really in depth with religious studies and can have them answer that for you if you'd like?
Name:jsm •
Date: 04/20/07 5:12
A: Shlomo,
Submit your theory on the two Bethlehem's existing during Jesus time and I'll listen to what you have to say, but please supply evidences to support your theory, not your speculations or others. Thanks
"Challenge the new covenant in all its aspects and you will be amazed at what you learn."
Like?
Name:Shlomo •
Date: 04/20/07 5:13
A: jsm,
Sure, your friends are welcome to give an answer. Do not worry, I was never under the impression you were trying to change my mind. And I was only trying to get people to think a little deeper, below the surface, as it were. If you take the new covenant and investigate it like a detective or an archeologists you will find a lot of hidden items and actually obtain clarity. In my studies I have found that there is a massive amount of the usage of contextual elimination of verses taken from the old covenant and inserted into the new covenant to support their alleged evidence of a messiah.
Name:Shlomo •
Date: 04/20/07 6:14
A: jsm,
For now you can check Yehoshua [Joshua] 19:15 / shoftim [Judges]12:10 for Beth-Lechem in Galilee.
Name:CanuckChick •
Date: 04/20/07 12:25
A: Re Bethlehem:
Meaning = House of Bread
There were in fact two Bethlehems in Jesus' time.
The first here mentioned is the birthplace of Jesus. It is a town in the Judean highlands, located about 9 km from the Temple Mount.
The earlier name of Bethlehem was Ephrath (or, Ephrathah). Since there was another Bethlehem in the territory of Zebulun, the town in Judah was usually distinguished by reference to Ephrath, or by calling it "Bethlehem in Judah". (See Judges 17:7-9; 19:1,2,18)
It was not a prominent town nor did it have a large population - a "village" when Jesus was on earth. (See John 7:42) Therefore the prophet Micah in his Messianic prophecy could refer to Bethlehem Ephrathah as "the one too little to get to be among the thousands of Judah."
His prophecy showed that small Bethlehem would have the honor of being the town from which the Messiah would come.
"And you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, the one too little to get to be among the thousands of Judah, from you there will come out to me the one who is to become ruler in Isreael, whose origin is from early times, from the days of time indefinite." (Micah 5:2)
The Jewish people understood this prophecy to mean that the Messiah would be born in and come from that town.
"Has not the Scripture said that the Christ is coming from the offspring of David, and from Bethlehem the village where David used to be?" (John 7:42)
Their chief priests and scribes expressed the same belief.
"At hearing this King Herod was agitated, and all Jerusalem along with him; and on gathering together all the chief priests and scribes of the people he began to inquire of them where the Christ was to be born. They said to him: ""In Bethlehem of Judea; for this is how it has been written through the prophet. """And you, O Bethlehem of the land of Judah, are by no means the most insignificant city among the governors of Judah; for out of you will come forth a governing one, who will shepherd my people, Israel.""""
The second Bethlehem is about 11 km from Nazareth, in the teritory of Zebulun.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 04/20/07 13:51
A: Hi Shlomo,
How close was I to the Hebrew version about the origin of the word satan?Also how and when did the Hebrews become slaves of Egypt before Moses lead them to freedom?And how long were they held in captivity?Did they wander into Egypt?And what are the names of the dieties they worshipped before Moses brought the ten commandments to them?Thank you for answer about Aramaic.I always thought Sanskrit was the basic root for most languages from that region.I'm not a scholar like you are but I'm willing to learn more.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 04/20/07 14:02
A: Todd,
Thank you for the list of facts.I agree with you.Tolerance does begin with each person.
Name:R. Kirk Kilpatrick •
Date: 04/20/07 14:49
A: OneGod...
Here are some statements from the DNA specialists... so far as other scholars USED in the documentary... that is just what happened in my opinion. They were used. They were not allowed on the documentary (Cross and others) to give their opinion of the assortment of evidence for the tomb. They were USED in their area of expertise, but their judgment on the whole was not allowed. So far as the statitician, he is not an expert in the field of archaeology or biblical studies.
Regarding the DNA “evidence”:
Dr. Carney Matheson, Lakehead University Paleo-DNA Laboratory, the one who did the DNA testing for the filmmakers:
The only conclusions we made was that these two sets [from the “Yeshua” and “Mariamne” ossuaries] were not maternally related. To me it sounds like absolutely nothing.
Elsewhere, Matheson noted that possible relationships (which DNA cannot establish) could be:
…father and daughter, paternal cousins, half brother and sister (sharing the same father) or simply unrelated individuals. The media does what they want.
And elsewhere:
There is a statement in the film that has been taken out of context. While marriage is a possibility, other relationships like father and daughter, paternal cousins, sister-in-law or indeed two unrelated individuals [are also possible]…
Regarding the tomb in general:
Prof. Amos Kloner, Israeli archeologist who oversaw the original discovery of the ossuaries:
It makes a great story for a TV film. But it’s completely impossible. It’s nonsense.
Dr. Jodi Magness, Department of Religious Studies, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill:
The entire way this has been done has been an injustice to the entire discipline [of archaelogy] and also to the public.
Dr. William Dever, professor emeritus, University of Arizona:
The fact that it’s been ignored [since 1980] tells you something. It would be amusing if it didn’t mislead so many people.
Elsewhere:
It’s a publicity stunt, and it will make these guys very rich, and it will upset millions of innocent people because they don’t know enough to separate fact from fiction.
Dr. Leen Ritmeyer, biblical archeologist, Associate Professor at the College of Archaeology & Biblical History, TSW University:
It would have to be an archaeologist’s worst nightmare. Imagine — your careful academic work, as was Amos Kloner’s supervision of the tomb’s excavation for the IAA (Israel Antiquities Authority) in 1980 — hijacked by Hollywood. And that to produce a sensationalist documentary…. It is possibly the most cynical claim yet to be made in the field of Biblical Archaeology and only serves to give the subject a bad name.
Dr. Aren Maeir, Director of the Tell es-Safi/Gath Archeological Project and a lecturer at the Martin (Szusz) Department of Land of Israel Studies at Bar Ilan University:
Since, along with, most probably, the majority of archaeologists who deal with the ancient Levant, I have been asked about the question of the supposed tomb of Jesus and his family …, I thought that I should join the very clear message of the responsible archaeological community and say — this is HOGWASH!! (excuse my French!).
Dr. Laurence Stager, Professor of the Archeology of Israel at Harvard University:
From what I know about it at this moment, it sounds rather preposterous.
David Mevorah, Curator of the Israel Museum:
[Any theory that] this tomb was a tomb of the family of Jesus is a farfetched suggestion, and we need to be very careful with that.
Prof. L. Michael White, Director of the Institute for the Study of Antiquity and Christian Origins, Univeristy of Texas:
This is not archeologically sound. This is fanfare.
According to the Washington Post:
Leading archaeologists in Israel and the United States have denounced the purported discovery of the tomb of Jesus as a publicity stunt.
Dr. Dan Bahat, Israeli archeologist currently with the University of Toronto:
Yeshua was such a popular name during the Second Temple Period. The fact that you have such similar names is due to the fact that these were the prevalent names during that time.
David Mevorah, curator of the Israel Museum:
[The chances this is real] are more than remote. They are closer to fantasy. … [Their statistics are] a good trick. … Statistics can bring empires down or build them up. But I wouldn’t build a theory of the most important person of the first century on statistics.”
Dr. Tal Ilan, scholar who compiled the Lexicon of Jewish Names that was essential to the statistical calculations put forward by the documentary:
I think it [the lexicon] was completely mishandled. I am angry.
Dr. Garret G. Fagan, Professor of Classics at Penn State University:
They’re not scientists, but they need to dress themselves in the clothes of science to pass muster… Television is not in the business of education, even with the so-called educational channels like Discovery. “Ultimately, they’re in the business of making money. … By the time the rebuttals come out, the mass media would have moved on to the next sensation and people will have this vague notion that they have found the tomb of Jesus.
A: Let me clarify some confusion regarding an earlier post. It was I that made the Hitler/ saint remark. I did this in sarcasm, and Im sorry if it offended anyone.
I dont know how much History surrounding Nazi Germany is really known by people, But it is historical fact that Rome (vatican) Authenticated the Axis powers between Italy and Germany. There were Fundamental Disaggreements and it is a complicated affair, But for all practical reasoning Hitler was looked up to by the majority of German citizens as a Saint. A saviour of sorts, of Germany. The German people were generally Good, law abiding Christains. Now this may come as a suprise too many,: HITLER WAS ELECTED. This idea that he was a crazy Gun toting hooligan that took power illegally is just not true.
By accepting this reality I am in no way wanting to connect Christains With Nazism. HOWEVER at that time in GERMANY there was a CONNECTION. PERIOD. The Current Pope admits he was in the Nazi Youth. This doesnt make him a Nazi now, but it does reveal the far reaching political power of Nazism in that society AT THAT TIME.
Now Jsm Thinks that Hitler was a master user of the Good Christain Folks to his own Ends. Im sure there was some of that. BUT, Long before Hitler came to power, In the days of his youth when he thought he could buy everyone Beer and Coup the nation by Hijacking Taverns, He made his beliefs Clear as a bell. Hitler ALWAYS told it like it was, and NEVER had any problems with 'Political Correctness" insofar as to limit his Ideas to the people. As a citizen, a diplomat, or whoever, YOU COULD NOT underestimate what he said as so many do today. Leaders and diplomats of the day had to learn the HARD WAY because they could not beleive he was serious. They underestimated Him and this was a mistake. This Guy was A Man of CONVICTION and If he said he beleived In "GOD" He did. He did more than Anyone, and had ABSOLUTELY NO REASON to lie about it. This attribute is what made him in part such an effective leader. He DID not Bullshit, while making alot of people think he was.
If you guys cant pick up a copy of Mein Kampf and get the Gist, I suggest the "Phycopathic GOD" or The Rise and fall of the Third Reich" by William Shirer. Probably the best Book ever Written By a Guy WHO WAS THERE the whole time, Rallies and all.........
Name:Panluna •
Date: 04/20/07 18:08
A: Were the ancient hebrews in Egypt at the time Pharoh Aknatan(sp?) introduced the idea of mono-theism namely the Aton and tried to eradicate the Egyptian pantheon?The priests asassinated him because they were afraid they would lose power then they reinstated their deities.
Could Moses(one drawn from water)who was raised as an Egyptian Prince after being rescued by the Pharoh's daughter have known the Aknaton story and introduced the monotheistic idea as well as the rules-the Ten Commandments--to his people to unify them?it's easier to settle differences if we believed in the same thing and follow the same rules.
A simple answer to the question as how God could be human is this:
Since He/She is the almighty who can create anything including all the univereses then He/She can make Himself/Herself human so that we can relate in human terms to the guidance offered.Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit.And God spoke through Him very much like the I AM presence or the speaking in tongues evidence of Angelic hosts contacting finite beings.Believe me it is not diabolical possession.Do we heed the messages?Maybe there is one for world peace and how to make it happen.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 04/20/07 18:41
A: The angelic alphabet and the Enochian one can be found on their own websites,along with the use of sigils courtesy of John Dee and associates who listened to and were tested by an Angel.Wikipedia has some listings.
Name:Shlomo •
Date: 04/21/07 5:00
A: Canuckchick,
Judges 19 has to do with the Levite man at Gibeah against the Sodomites. He married a woman from Beth-Lechem of Yudah.
Judges 17 is about Micah's son not being sufficient to be a priest and he was adopted, as it were, a young man from Beth-Lechem of Yudah to be his priest.
But Michah 5:2 Beth-Lechem of Yudah is not referrring to Jesus, the chapter in context refers to Moshicah ben Yosef [messiah] and the return of the nation of Israel and its people. The forces of Gog will converge upon Yerushalayim and Moshiach will fight against Gog / Magog. The new covenant writers did not keep chapters or verses in context, they did a lot of contextual elimination to fit their prophectic short comings.
The geneaology of Jesus lacks 320 years in Mattityahu and Luke. The names given after Zerubabel [ governor of Yudah - last of Davidic lineage ] do not meet the threshold, they are lacking recordings or validity in any ancient records.
Name:Shlomo •
Date: 04/21/07 5:28
A: Panluna,
Generally, the Hebrews and others in the area were affected by the famine [ after Yosef was sold years before ] and subsequently went to the place that had the food, Egypt. Yaacov and his sons met Yosef and stayed in Egypt.The Hebrews spent 210 years in Egyptian slavery. The time was cut short due to the strong overbearing outcry for G-d's mercy and a Paro who did not honor Yosef after his death and increased the hardship on the Hebrews. Certain documents indicate there were Hebrews who stayed in Egypt, these apparently became deeply involved in the religious worship of Egypts idols. When the Hebrews left, others including Egyptian people came along with them, this is how the Golden Calf incident came about, it was manipulated by the erev ["others and Egyptians"] who came with them to get out of slavery themselves, opportunists I would say. They were all slain by the Levites for creating a usurpation, including Hebrews who participated.
Name:Shlomo •
Date: 04/21/07 6:11
A: Panluna,
7 of the 10 commandments were already known and used by the world, given after the flood, they are the Noachide laws. So most countries at the time followed those laws. That is why there is a similarity between the laws you question. But in essence there are 613 laws [ 248 positive 365 negative]. Monotheistic beliefs were rare outside of the Hebrews, most were trinitarian or more [ Babel, Assyria, Greecian, Roman, Arabian Hindu, Budda, Asian, etc.]. The one instance in Egypt was the the Sun
g-d "Amun Ra' [radium] who became a monotheistic g-d for a short period.
G-d being human? The Torah and mysteries say otherwise.............The lowest level of angels can make contact with humans, in fact they do everyday.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 04/21/07 16:39
A: Shlomo,
I just ordered my copy of the Stone edition of the Hebrew Bible from Amazon.I got to read a sample page.it is beautifully written.I can't wait to get my copy.Thank you for suggesting it.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 04/21/07 18:53
A: Well I just got off the phone after speaking to my mother for 3hours and 13 and a half minutes.During the course of our conversation she told me the origin story of the family heirloom fruitcake.it was baked from an age-old recipe by an ancester.My great-grandfather came into possession and hung onto it for awhile.He used said it used talked him and they had many wonderous conversations about days gone by. Now I never heard a peep out of it when I had it.
Right after I hung the phone up the doorbell rang.Three men in black were standing at my door with orders to confiscate the fruitcake which for years had made the rounds and been used to make us behave if we wanted to get anything for Christmas"You had better be good or you'll get the FRUITCAKE in your stocking!" my parents always said.Other kids were told they'ld get coal by their parents.
Back to the Men-In-Black as they reached for the "treasured"family heirloom they told me---all three said the same thing at the same time---they heard about the sugar-rush and wanted it for the energy program.
Which one of you scientist told them about this?was it you Todd?????
They opened the box it had been in all these centuries traveling around---my greatgrandfather use to call it the cosmic-cake----the planet to all the relatives who kept passing it around and it...was..empty!!!
We now have a real mystery in our family:WHO ATE THE FRUITCAKE?
Needless to say The Three- Men -In- Black stepped back from the empty box and vanished into thin air.HaHaHa The END!!!
P.S. Can you believe it?
Name:Shlomo •
Date: 04/22/07 2:23
A: Panluna,
Glad to hear that you ordered the Torah, it will be addictive and you will want to know more, so you will probably be increasing your library before long. Trust me I know, I can not keep mine clean and I am still looking for more books.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 04/22/07 15:00
A: Hi Shlomo,
I actually ordered two copies,one for my brother and one for me.Are there any other books you could recomend?Amazon.com or Alibris are really good book deaters.Amazon sells other stuff,too.What did you think of my nutty fruitcake story?I threw it in for levity.After all is said and done I'm filled with hope and laughter.Isn't it great news that we can learn from each other even if our views are opposing?I learned a alot from everyones' posts.And it made me think and opened my eyes.Thank you.
My son tells me that it was Dante's Inferno and artwork in it that gave the people of the day a visual impression of what evil is supposed to look like.Most people were illiterate and the churches used art to portray the Bible stories and get the ideas across about how beautiful God,Jesus and The Virgin Mary,and the good Angels looked and how evil in this world was personified in an ugly dark image.Mostly it was to scare them.According to my readings Lucifer,The Light Bringer was a very exacting teacher and expected more of the early humans.He had to resort to some trickery to get his points across and wound up getting the reputation for being the Great Deciever of humankind by the early theologians who pondered the good-and evil questions.People didn't use psychology in those days and it was religion that offered the guidelines.Well Someone had to be the bad One.He was the shapeshifter (snake)in the Garden of Eden and the consort of Lilith who spurned Adam when she refused to become his wife.They just weren't the same kind.She was a Nephilim who posessed magikal powers and Adam was a mere mortal.How they made Eve from his rib could be taken symbolicly meaning they were the same species.The Genesis story holds a a great deal of miracles and I wonder what Moses's source was from in order for him to write it.Is it a story that was told before he lead his people from bondage in Egypt?Moses possessed some magical skills.Magic has always been important to humans in real magick or as a tricks and illusions and apparitions and miracles.
None of my Wiccan friends have never seen the Devil ,and neither have I.Old Scratch doesn't pay housecalls.The Satanists stay at a baser level and have their own rules and stick with their own kind.They generally don't involve other people outside their own belief system..Who really was the Burning Bush?And what is the source of real magick and why can a small percentage of humans perform it?Or are attracted to it while other people misunderstand and fear it?Are the angels both dark and light and one and the same or are they seperate entities sent to save and teach at our level?Where did they really come from and where do they go when they aren't influencing us?And does the Source determine the results as rewards or punishment just to teach us our lessons?
Name:Panluna •
Date: 04/22/07 15:06
A: I didn't catch something when I proofread my previous message.It should read:None of my Wiccan friends have EVER seen the Devil and neither have I.
Name:Elizabeth •
Date: 04/22/07 18:49
A: Dear Panluna,
Seriously, I tell you the truth- it would not be to his advantage.
Blessings to you, ED
Name:Shlomo •
Date: 04/22/07 22:26
A: Panluna,
There is more psychology in the old covenant [Torah] than one may realize. Also check out Bereshit [Genesis] 1:2 to 2:21 there is a interesting occurrence, even mystical in a sense. It will not jump out, you have to stand back and look deeper. The common understanding of the burning bush is that there was an angel of the highest realm in the center of the bush. As far as magic, 90% of it is from the laws of physics.
There is a restricted amount of power allowed for a particular purpose, not necessarily intertainment. The unknown brings out the fear in people, which is a normal reaction, a safety valve as it were.
Rib? The common interpretation is a rib, but the root word for rib and image is "tzl." So is it an image or rib? Look into Genesis 1&2 it gives a clue. Moses source was straight from G_d in a manner that was not destructive to Moses or the people at Sinai. The term you can not see me and live means in humans terms, our finite minds would explode or shatter, it can not absorb the full knowledge of his existence. Angels dark and light? One must define what light is in this particular instance. Clue: darkeness is a type of light. Angels are sent on a particular mission, and that mission only, they have no free will as humans do. The three angels that came before Abraham is an example of each one being assigned a particular mission and no other, once completed they go back to their source. Punishes the wicked and rewards the righteous? G_d created a self-sustaining system of physical law, so he created a self-sustaining system of spiritual law. G_d conceived creation so that man's good comes, not as a reward for his action, but as a direct result of his action. It has been written "Righteousness guards the one who is upright in his ways, but the wickedness overthrows the sinner.[Prov. 13:6]
Name:Panluna •
Date: 04/23/07 13:26
A: Thank you Shlomo,
Was God the leader of the Angels or one of them?And did God set rules for just the Hebrews or were they meant for everyone?Three major religions draw on the Old Testament and in a sense of the word our laws seem to be based on themain gist of the Ten Commandments,even though they are more elaborate.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 04/23/07 13:48
A: Hi Red,
I've commited some blog-bloopers,too.
Bright blessings,panluna
Name:Panluna •
Date: 04/23/07 13:49
A: Elizabeth,
what did your message mean?
Name:betty47 •
Date: 04/23/07 17:44
A: "From Todd: Here’s some stats for you so you know that the Jews weren‘t the only ones being persecuted by the Nazi‘s:" End quote.
I don't think anyone said Jews were the ONLY ones who died. As I read over all the posts in this topic, I see no one who even hinted as much. Are you trying to say Jews didn't suffer? Even the WWII memorial to the victims in Israel does not claim that Jews were the only ones who suffered. Are you that insensitive and defensive of Christianity that you can't admit Jews suffered? Plus as posted earlier, Jews were being burned alive in their temples, beaten and driven from their homes by people claiming to be Christians even before Hitler was ever born. There are whole books, magazines, and documents on the origins of anti-semitism. Many will say that it started with St. Paul. History has recorded that the streets of Jerusalem ran red with blood after Christian Crusaders murdered thousands of Jews. Yes. It's inconsistent with Christianity, and you can say that such people could not be real Christians. I will agree with that. And many Christians did help to save individual Jews. But anti-semitism was started by people who thought they were Christians. It's been continued now by others who are not Christians as well, I know. It's not just one event where Jews have been killed. I read somewhere, I can't find it now as I try to look, that there would be 240 million more Jews in this world if Jews had not been killed and murdered over the centuries.
The thread is that the hope is that Jews and Christians might learn something about each other after centuries of anti-semitism, and come together. I hope that too. I don't know why people would continue to argue that original point.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 04/23/07 22:51
A: Hi Betty47,
We can't change the past.If we're smart we will learn the lessons neccessary to make the future better after all that is what we have to look forward to.As a first step forgiveness always works and it starts within each of us.I look at the Burning Times and I realise I never knew any of them.Why carry anger and hostilities of transgressions commited long ago into every day of our current lives.All it does is create more grief.I think we need to let go of the past--and I did not say to FORGET---and move on towards healing.To Err is human to Forgive is Divine.I'll light a candle in their memory and pray for Peace.Maybe some day it will be granted and the wisdom of my words will be taken to heart.
Name:Todd •
Date: 04/23/07 22:58
A: Betty47,
Here is the quote I was responding to from the original post by filledwithhope.
“The Holocaust happened because Christians allowed it to happen by blaming Jews for killing Jesus over the centuries until the hate built up to such a fury that it allowed millions and millions of innocent Jews to be killed.” End quote.
Did you even read my post?
Considering that the Holocaust was to rid the world of Jews and other people the Nazi’s labeled undesirables, I don’t think any sane person could even begin to say the Jews didn’t suffer unspeakable horrors at the hands of the Nazi’s.
Read the first part of my post.
You’re right about the suffering the Jewish people have endured throughout history but when you try to condense that into it’s “all the Christians fault” you’re using the same analogy as the people who blamed the Jews for all their problems. The point of my post.
What was Exodus about? Who were they running from? Egyptians. How about those Jewish Revolts? Who were they revolting against? Roman occupation. To even suggest that Anti-Semitism started with the early Jesus Movement is historically inaccurate.
I can’t see where you get the notion that I am: “From betty47: Are you that insensitive and defensive of Christianity that you can't admit Jews suffered?” End quote.
I’m sorry that I didn’t clarify my point so as it couldn’t be misconstrued because my intent was about respect and tolerance of all people. Read the last part of my post. Especially the part about the elitist “my religion is better than yours“.
God’s chosen people have been persecuted and enslaved from the earliest parts of The Old Testament right through today. That there is even any Jewish people left in the world says something about the resilient and tenacious nature of a people who were the foundation of Christianity and many other religions.
Christians, Jews and many other people suffered together at the hands of the Nazi’s but it‘s pretty safe to say the Jewish people got the worst of it. Christians and many other people helped Jews during WWII. Have Christians killed Jews, of course they did. The list of people who Christians have killed is a who’s who of the known world. Name a people and Christians have probably killed them.
The number of people killed in God’s name from the indigenous people wiped out by the Spanish Christians, to Manifest Destiny, The Inquisition, Salem Witch Hunts and on and on…..
“From Todd: A select few were responsible for Jesus’ death. Not the entire Jewish people from that day till now. Given the fact he was Crucified, that by itself tells me it was the Romans.” End Quote. Re-read my post.
You brought up an excellent point about the split from Judaism from the early Jesus Movement. I really think calling it Christianity at this point in history is a little premature.
Here’s a quote from an article about Jesus the Rabbi
“Recently, scholars have not only put the picture of Jesus back into the setting of first century Judaism; they have also rediscovered the Jewishness of the New Testament, and particularly of Paul. His epistle to the Romans (9-11) is the description of his struggle over the relation between church and synagogue, concluding with the prediction and the promise: "And so all Israel will be saved"--not, it should be noted, converted to Christianity, but saved, because, in Paul's words, "as regards election they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable" (Rom. 11:26-29). This reading of the mind of Paul in Romans gives special significance to his many references to the name of Jesus Christ there: from "descended from David according to the flesh... Jesus Christ our Lord" in the first chapter, to "the preaching of Jesus Christ," which "is now disclosed and through the prophetic writings is made known to all nations" in the final sentence. Here Jesus Christ is, as Paul says of himself elsewhere, "of the people of Israel..., a Hebrew born of Hebrews" (Phil. 3:5). The very issue of universality, supposedly the distinction between Paul and Judaism, was, for Paul, what made it necessary that Jesus be a Jew. For only through the Jewishness of Jesus could the covenant of God with Israel, the gracious gifts of God, and his irrevocable calling become available to all people in the whole world, also to the Gentiles, who "were grafted in their place to share the richness of the olive tree"--namely, the people of Israel (Rom. 11:17).
No one can consider the topic of Jesus as Rabbi and ignore the subsequent history of the relation between the people to whom Jesus belonged and the people who belong to Jesus. That relation runs like a red line through much of the history of culture, and after the events of the twentieth century we have a unique responsibility to be aware of it as we study the history of the images of Jesus through the centuries. The question is easier to ask than it is to answer, and it is easier to avoid than it is to ask at all. But ask it we must: Would there have been such anti-Semitism, would there have been so many pogroms, would there have been an Auschwitz, if every Christian church and every Christian home had focused its devotion on images of Mary not only as Mother of God and Queen of Heaven but also as the Jewish maiden and the New Miriam, and on icons of Christ not only as the Cosmic Christ but also as Rabbi Jesus of Nazareth, the Son of David, come to ransom a captive Israel and a captive humanity?”
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/front-line/shows/religion/jesus/rabbi.html
“From- betty47: The thread is that the hope is that Jews and Christians might learn something about each other after centuries of anti-semitism, and come together. I hope that too. I don't know why people would continue to argue that original point.” Read the last part of my post betty47.
Todd
Name:Mark Stilt •
Date: 04/23/07 23:28
A: TO: Shlomo
I want you to know that I really respect some of what you have to say. I've read a number of your posts in various places and can see that you are articulate and intelligent.
I do however disagree with much of what you have to say.
The Messiah ben Joseph IS widely testified of by the Old Testament prophets. In many instances however, it's difficult to separate the prophecies regarding him, from those referring to the Kingly Messiah who was to come from the royal line of David.
In fact, some of the overlap may have been intentional; the mission of any of the Lords Anointed (messiahs) being (by their very nature) of a
similar character.
The Davidic Messiah was THE Messiah from whom all others were modeled.
It is my belief that the Messiah ben Joseph has already appeared, fulfilled his mission and passed from this sphere of action, as a martyr on 27 June 1844.
Futhermore, Elijah the prophet has come to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the hearts of the children to the fathers.....This occurred on 3 April 1836.
Name:Shlomo •
Date: 04/24/07 2:48
A: Mark,
Disagreement is a healthy virtue, face valve is of no value. As far as your comments about the time already set forth, is not an agreeable position.
Some have commented of 1844 as the beginning of the Messianic era. But no one is allowed to even speculate as to any given time. The times have already been set forth and we are not allowed to know them except through the given signs permitted. Many have shouted times and days, but to no avail. Eliyah is to come, but is he here? No one knows yet, until he reveals himself. G_d said, "are my thoughts your thoughts?" So your premise remains to be seen as well as mine.
Name:Elizabeth •
Date: 04/24/07 5:12
A: Hi Panluna,
I personally believe the "devil" exists and that it would not be advantagous for him to show himself to anyone, for the most part.
Jesus spoke of him, as well.
Blessings, ED
Name:Shlomo •
Date: 04/24/07 5:55
A: Panluna,
HaShem [G_d] created all, including the angels on the third day of creation. There is no one before or after G_d. The seven Noachide laws were specific to all people:
1. Prohibitions against idolatry
2. Blasphemy
3. Bloodshed
4. Sexual sins
5. Theft
6. Eating from a living animal
7. Establish a legal system.
These were derived from the divine demands addressed to Adam and Noah. People that follow the Noachide laws to their true intent is considered a righteous gentile [ ger-toshav ].
The Jewish people are to represent as an example to the world of the proper way to worship G_d. In order for the Jewish people to have the ability and mind set to accomplish this, they were given an additional set of commandments.
Name:Shlomo •
Date: 04/24/07 5:58
A: Elizabeth,
Who is this "devil" in disguise?
Name:Elizabeth •
Date: 04/24/07 6:34
A: Dear Shlomo,
I believe in the Bible- and the Gospels of the NT in which the devil is spoken of. I believe he is a fallen angel from Heaven.
Here are a few references from the NT-
Mt 4, 7:22, 8:16, 8:28, 9:32, 10:8, 12:22...
Blessings, ED
Name:Mark Stilt •
Date: 04/24/07 10:28
A: TO: Shlomo
Again you try to dismiss my comments by merely telling me that I am wrong.
It doesn't work that way.
Show me your proofs!! Establish your evidences, whatever they are!
By what authority do you tell me that "no one is allowed to even speculate" on a given topic. NONSENSE!!
I have reasons for believing the things that I believe. You are under no compulsion to believe them..............but for you to suggest that I am not even allowed to "speculate" about these things is absolutely absurd; UNLESS you can back your statement up with scripture!!
No mans opinion is worth a straw............"to the Law and the Prophets" for your support!!
Name:fabulous1 •
Date: 04/24/07 13:55
A: Filled with hope,
I agree, Hilter and his thugs killed jews. American men and women lost their lives to rescue jews held captive. You want us to be open minded to jews-but you blame us for jews being killed in europe. I can read between the lines what you feel in your heart. To be honest with you-Icould care less what faith anyone pratices.Your first sentece says you don't believe in Jesus and the last says lets pray for peace like Jeseus wanted. What do you mean? I think most Jews know now that Jesus was the man he claimed to be. Jews just don't want to admit it out loud. That's ok. Is christianty the way to go? I don't know. I do know I love God and Jesus and they did and do exit. Take a look back on the Jewish history. According to the OT, Jews were the chosen people. What happened? Why do the jews continue to be tageted? It seems as though Judiasim is more about profit and less about worship. And that is not the only relgion that is geared towards profit. Most of them are. I am tired of being politicly correct. I'm a white Christian, catholic women and I am proud that we, as you and others fought to keep regilious beliefs alive. As for the tomb, I believe it is Jesus's and his family. Does this go against my Catholic faith?-Yeah it does, and I don't care. Do I think all relgious faiths need to open thier mind to different possiblities? Yes I do! Finding this tomb along with the others confirms what I already know in my heart. It's strange that four weeks before this show aired, I was praying to God and Jesus. I asked them if they could just find some proof of Jesus exitents, people would believe. Then i thought about it-no, there will always be people who question God. So I let that go. I feel happy and I am excited about Jesus's tomb. If I had the money-I would visit the warehouse where it is kept. If the Jews do not believe it is not Jesus's tomb-Give it to us or those who believe in the tomb. I suport the findings 100% and this site.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 04/24/07 16:06
A: Hello Elizabeth,
Someone who is a member and participates in a religion is more knowledgable about that religion than someone outside looking in.I've yet to see the Devil as an entity but I have seen the evil behaviour of humans.Did the Devil make them do it or did that person choose to commit the wicked act for whatever gains?We can choose between good and evil.There is no angel on one shoulder and the devil on the other shoulder telling you what to do.It's a matter of conscience and influence in the home environment.Jesus had His conversations with and about the Devil---namely personified as the evil deeds of this world --but how do you know that it wasn't God in disguise testing Him or anyone else for that matter?
Name:Panluna •
Date: 04/24/07 18:24
A: Hi Shlomo,
I thought the Hebrew God's name was Yaweh. or Jehovah.Also what were the additional laws?
Name:Shlomo •
Date: 04/25/07 0:37
A: Mark,
You appear to have mis-understood my repsonse, I said I do not agree with your premise of a Messiah who already came and left. As far as speculating the end time, I used the word " we" in context of believers, not "you" specifically.
Did I say, "you are wrong or did I say " is not an agreeable position?" [ in other words I disagree with your premise]. If I did say,"you are wrong" then, I appologize.
Our sages taught: "may the soul of those who calculate the end [time] rot." Sanhedrin 97b. [Talmud]
The messianic age will begin with the war of Gog and Magog: Ezk. 38/39, Berachos 7b, Shabbos 118a, Succa 52b, Megilla 11a, Sanhedrin 17a, Eduyos 2:10, Ex. 40:10, Num. 11:26-28, 24:17, Deut.32:29, Zechariah 14:1-3
Name:Shlomo •
Date: 04/25/07 0:48
A: Panluna,
The name of G_d as you know is the tetragrammaton"YHVH." HaShem means "the name" instead of pronouncing or spelling it. The other names you mentioned in your message were guess work using the vowels out the word "Adonai" by many individuals in past history. Sorry, but I can not reveal the actual name. To know the other commandments, obtain Maimonides "The 613 Commandments" by Charles Chavel, there are two volumes in paperback.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 04/25/07 1:39
A: Shlomo,Do you know the real name and would anything happen if we said it?I found a website that has at a hundred names for God collected from all the traditions and religions.Of course Lucifer's name wasn't on it.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 04/25/07 1:44
A: I suppose after spending all day memorizing all those laws no one had time to get into trouble.Two books?! OY!! There is definitly some psychology there..
Name:Mark Stilt •
Date: 04/25/07 4:04
A: TO: Shlomo
Listen, no apology needed at all. Probably, I should apologize to you for not being clearer myself.
It seems to me, that there are several messiahs (little "m") spoken of; and ONE Messiah (Capital "M").
The authors of the Dead Sea scrolls spoke of a priestly messiah AND of a lay messiah (i.e. a messiah of Aaron and a messiah of Judah).
Other rabbinic traditions speak of the messiah ben Joseph.
Of course there are traditions and prophecies regarding the return of Elijah and even reference to a prophetic figure of some sort from the tribe of Manasseh.
Each of these individuals have/had their own time and mission.
I happen to believe that many of the prophesied events leading up to the redemption of Zion have already occurred.
I also believe that many things remain to be accomplished, including the return of the so-called "lost tribes' of Israel, the continued gathering of Judah to her homeland, the building of a Temple in Jerusalem, AND the resumption of animal sacrifices with proper priestly authority.
(gotta go..........more to come later)
Name:Elizabeth •
Date: 04/25/07 4:13
A: Hi Panluna,
I believe as we can allow God in- so can we allow evil- and it becomes our responsibility.
I also believe Satan and God are quite distinct in every way- as in good and evil. Satan has a hateful disposition and it would be impossible for God to have that persona- since it would go against everything
He stands for. Even as we grow and learn as children, it becomes innate within us what is right and wrong.
I think one of the greatest deceptions is that he does not exist.
Blessings, ED
Name:jsm •
Date: 04/25/07 4:17
A: Elizabeth
"Even as we grow and learn as children, it becomes innate within us what is right and wrong."
Humans are the only creatures on this planet that have a sense of right and wrong. Maybe thats because were the only ones with souls? Just a thought...
Name:jsm •
Date: 04/25/07 4:25
A: Elizabeth,
"I think one of the greatest deceptions is that he does not exist."
If Satan showed himself, and we knew it was Satan, then we would know God existed. So by him not showing himself, it actually helps him to try to lead people away from God.
Name:Elizabeth •
Date: 04/25/07 4:30
A: Hi JSM,
We have a scientist in the family who has told me about a study concerning animals seeming to know the difference. I don't know how true it is- but I find it very interesting.
Blessings, ED
Name:Elizabeth •
Date: 04/25/07 4:34
A: Dear JSM,
"If Satan showed himself, and we knew it was Satan, then we would know God existed. So by him not showing himself, it actually helps him to try to lead people away from God. "
This is true.
Blessings, ED
Name:Panluna •
Date: 04/26/07 0:57
A: Hi Shlomo,
I just recieved my Bible today.I will make a good study of it.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 04/26/07 1:07
A: Hi Elizabeth,
When Satan pays you a visit or calls you please let me know.I deal with the paranormal.Thank you!!! And I'm serious.
And animals don't know the difference between right from wrong because they have no moral values.Animals are instinctive in behaviour and their behaviour patterns can be modified with training.Humans have to be taught the difference between right from wrong--there is nothing innate .We are born knowing nothing.Children are completely innocent until taught by example.
Name:Elizabeth •
Date: 04/26/07 1:45
A: Dear Panluna,
This is a link I thought you might find interesting concerning
animals and "souls" by a veterinary.
A: In my view the Soul is the Spark of the Divine that connects and binds all living beings.Since it's neutral it remains pure.Intentions can reward or punish but nothing tarnishes the Spirit.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 04/26/07 2:20
A: Are you refering to innate abilities?Society sets the rules and guidelines for acceptable behaviour and punishment for bad behaviour.We are born innocent and conscience is developed as we grow.
Name:JMD •
Date: 04/26/07 3:49
A: Panluna, you noted: "In my view the Soul is the Spark of the Divine"
"Gnosis entails an awareness of the spark within, and Gnostic writings tell of efforts to bring about an awareness of this inner mystery."
[June Singer, Gnostic Book of Hours]
Name:JMD •
Date: 04/26/07 4:19
A: [from a few posts, from a week or so ago...just getting to it now.]
jsm: "I'd love to fly without help, but I'm bound by the laws of physics."
JMD: "That's too bad -the laws of physics sure don't stop my spirit from soaring and flying at times."
jsm: "haha... I can tell you live in your imagination"
jsm: "So since we got out of the way that I'm uneducated, mind telling me what graduate school you went to and what you received your M.S. or Ph.D in?"
I guess I got my degree from your imagination, and yet you accuse me of living in my imagination?! You got rather confused - you were quoting Bart Ehrman, then assuming it was my opinion...or something?
I'm autodidactic - know what that means? [self-educated or self-directed learning]. James Cameron is autodidactic.
There are sometimes advantages to not being academically trained - such as being able to handle reading Rudolf Steiner ! :b [1861-1925, Austrian-born philosopher, scientist, artist, and educator]:
"For most academic historians, Steiner's philosophy of history is even less acceptable than Hegel's: whereas Hegel interprets the content of world history according to the logic of thought, Steiner claims to present and interpret historical processes by a kind of spiritual seeing....
Steiner recognizes the difficulty which some readers will experience on encountering his claims for knowledge of events in remote prehistory:
"The author of this present book in no way claims that he should be believed blindly. He merely wishes to report what his best efforts have enabled him to discover. He will welcome any correction based on competent knowledge.....the reader is requested to bear with much that is dark and difficult to comprehend, and to struggle..... Many a difficulty in reading will be rewarded when one looks upon the deep mysteries, the important human enigmas which are indicated....."
"Most readers of Steiner's "Cosmic Memory", particularly those of us trained academically, will indeed experience what Steiner here refers to as "many a difficulty in reading."
"When Steiner describes transformative events in history, he is essentially describing transformations of consciousness. He reads particular social, physical, and artistic developmens as expressions of particular states of consciousness. . . .He identifies the task of the present age as the reunification of scientific knowledge with spiritual wisdom. He argues that a spiritual mode of knowing is not only compatible with contemporary science, but necessary for the next phase of scientific advancement."
Name:Panluna •
Date: 04/26/07 15:15
A: JMD,
That's what meditation teaches us: to connect with the soul within and recognize and respect its existance in all lifeforms and how Spirit animates and binds.Nameste!!! Have you found the White Tara?
Name:jsm •
Date: 04/26/07 17:44
A: JMD,
"I guess I got my degree from your imagination, and yet you accuse me of living in my imagination?! You got rather confused - you were quoting Bart Ehrman, then assuming it was my opinion...or something?
I am confused, because I never quoted Bart Ehrman, your the one that brought him up. You wanted me to read "Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why". So.... What are you talking about?
"I'm autodidactic - know what that means? [self-educated or self-directed learning]. James Cameron is autodidactic."
Congratulations, doesn't mean you earn any weight in the science community of today.
"There are sometimes advantages to not being academically trained - such as being able to handle reading Rudolf Steiner ! :b [1861-1925, Austrian-born philosopher, scientist, artist, and educator]:
Haha but Rudolf Steiner was academically trained. Chemistry, Mathematics, and Physics...
"For most academic historians, Steiner's philosophy of history is even less acceptable than Hegel's: whereas Hegel interprets the content of world history according to the logic of thought, Steiner claims to present and interpret historical processes by a kind of spiritual seeing....
Steiner recognizes the difficulty which some readers will experience on encountering his claims for knowledge of events in remote prehistory:
"The author of this present book in no way claims that he should be believed blindly. He merely wishes to report what his best efforts have enabled him to discover. He will welcome any correction based on competent knowledge.....the reader is requested to bear with much that is dark and difficult to comprehend, and to struggle..... Many a difficulty in reading will be rewarded when one looks upon the deep mysteries, the important human enigmas which are indicated....."
I have no idea why thats relevant to what were talking about.
"When Steiner describes transformative events in history, he is essentially describing transformations of consciousness. He reads particular social, physical, and artistic developments as expressions of particular states of consciousness. . . .He identifies the task of the present age as the reunification of scientific knowledge with spiritual wisdom. He argues that a spiritual mode of knowing is not only compatible with contemporary science, but necessary for the next phase of scientific advancement."
I love how when I was reading this it jumped from talking about particular states of consciousness applied to events. To talking about the present reunification of scientific knowledge with spiritual wisdom. I think you forgot to copy and past the paragraph in between. I don't see why he's saying that each accomplishment is based on a different level of consciousness. Wheres the proof in that? He used the idea of artistic developments. What does it mean to have a different level of consciousness while painting. Is he intertwining consciousness to different emotions? Maybe If I had the middle paragraph I could answer myself.
And his idea of the reunification of scientific knowledge with spiritual wisdom is already being done today. We have a knowledge of the capabilities of God. Thats why when we say somethings irreducible complex, that thats a sign of design by God. Thats the whole Intelligent Design argument. Though I am not a I.D. proponent. I do agree with a lot of what they have to say.
Also check out www.mothergoose.com
Name:betty47 •
Date: 04/30/07 3:32
A: "That's what meditation teaches us: to connect with the soul within and recognize and respect its existance in all lifeforms and how Spirit animates and binds.Nameste!!! Have you found the White Tara? "
Well stated Panluna. I will have to find this White Tara you speak of. I wish I had more time to meditate myself.
Name:betty47 •
Date: 04/30/07 3:39
A: If the Jews do not believe it is not Jesus's tomb-Give it to us or those who believe in the tomb. I suport the findings 100% and this site.
I think most Jews embrace that this is the tomb of Jesus, and hope it is the tomb of Jesus. My Jewish friends have few doubts about it because in their hearts it proves that Jesus was Jewish and followed the Torah and it shows there is no need for Chrisitianity, in their minds. It makes Jews feel stronger in their beliefs just as it makes some Christians stronger in their beliefs. They are not jumping up and down in public because they don't want to be seen as knocking Christians.
Name:jsm •
Date: 04/30/07 3:41
A: betty47,
"That's what meditation teaches us: to connect with the soul within and recognize and respect its existence in all lifeforms and how Spirit animates and binds."
"Well stated"
Maybe you can meditate for me so that I may receive the energy from all lifeforms to keep putting up with reading your posts...
Name:betty47 •
Date: 04/30/07 3:43
A: "faboulous1Take a look back on the Jewish history. According to the OT, Jews were the chosen people. What happened? Why do the jews continue to be tageted? It seems as though Judiasim is more about profit and less about worship. "
I am a white Catholic Christian woman too and find the above to be the most anti-Semitic comment on this site of many anti-semitic comments in this forum. I think you are proving the original post to be correct. People who claim to be good Christians are spreading anti-Jewish comments around the world every day.
Name:jsm •
Date: 04/30/07 4:07
A: betty47,
"People who claim to be good Christians are spreading anti-Jewish comments around the world every day. "
"I am a white Catholic Christian woman too and find the above to be the most anti-Semitic comment on this site of many anti-semitic comments in this forum. I think you are proving the original post to be correct. People who claim to be good Christians are spreading anti-Jewish comments around the world every day."
Yeah, its our big conspiracy. To get rid of all the Jews... you better do your homework. They are Gods chosen people and I would protect them with my life. Everybody gets persecuted, I've been persecuted for just about every post of mine defending my religion and Jesus, but you don't see me crying that people hate me, want to kill me, whatever. I've done lots of missionary work in NY city and we get lots of hateful comments and acts towards us. I couldn't care less what people want to do with me. Jesus died for me, and I would die for him. Some people act like THEY have been persecuted for thousands of years... as we all know... thats impossible.
Name:betty47 •
Date: 04/30/07 4:10
A: The need to step up the fight against anti-Semitism will be a key issue for the world's Roman Catholic bishops at a meeting at the Vatican next year.
An entire section of a preparatory document released by the Vatican on Friday is devoted to the Church's relationship with Jews, noting the "close associations of the two in faith" and calling for efforts "to overcome every form of anti-Semitism."
The 60-page document, which was approved by Pope Benedict XVI, outlines the suggested topics and includes a questionnaire to be answered by local bishops.
After asking if priority is given to dialogue with the Jews, the questionnaire calls on bishops to investigate the use of biblical texts to "ferment attitudes of anti-Semitism."
_______________________-_______________________
Al-l- I can say, is thank you, thank you. I agree, the Christian church needs to step up to the causes of anti-semitism within Christianity. I think some of the Christians on this site need to as well. The shameless anti-semitic comments made in this thread are horrible. Jesus would want you to repent.
Name:betty47 •
Date: 04/30/07 13:17
A: "Jsm, To get rid of all the Jews... you better do your homework. They are Gods chosen people and I would protect them with my life. Everybody gets persecuted, I've been persecuted for just about every post of mine defending my religion and Jesus, but you don't see me crying that people hate me, want to kill me, whatever. I've done lots of missionary work in NY city and we get lots of hateful comments and acts towards us. "
Funny, JSM. For some reason I think you'd try to convert the Jews not protect them. Every time I say something to support the Jews, you knock it down. Why would people give you hateful comments? Geez beets me, but if you tell them they're going to hell unless they listen to either you or Jesus, I wouldn't blame them either!
Name:Panluna •
Date: 04/30/07 14:56
A: Heaven and Hell are here on Earth.It's what each of us is responsible for when we are alive.Love thy neighbor without prejudice.Accept people for who they are rather than expect them to live up to your judgements.You might learn something from everyone.I know I did from this website.
Name:betty47 •
Date: 04/30/07 16:05
A: Yes. Let me add a challenge to all the ministers, preachers and rabbis out there. I would love to see a new religion or philosophy that is closer to what the real Jesus believed, and I wonder if this discovery can get us there? I would love to see a branch of Christianity that says others can get to heaven without having to believe in Christ as Lord, and a branch of Christianity that is more Jewish and less born of myths and half truths. The Rev. Jerry Falwell tried to make some attempt at this several months ago only to be criticized so harshly that he had to retract his original statement that people of other faiths could find salvation outside of Christ. I would love to see a branch of Judaism that talks about the teachings of Jesus more without having to accept Jesus as Lord, and I would love to merge these two thoughts into a new religion because I think it is closer to what Jesus really was thinking. I would love to see people who grow and evolve in their spiritual thinking throughout their lives and not say it's my way or the highway.
Name:jsm •
Date: 04/30/07 16:59
A: betty47,
Then make up your own religion, but you cannot change Christs teachings and meanings. Unless you want to change two thousand year old manuscripts.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 04/30/07 17:24
A: Betty 47,
Have you researched The White Tara?There is a philosophy similar to yours.I think you might like it.I've embraced it as part of my beliefs.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 04/30/07 17:30
A: JSM,
The bible has been revised so many times.Point in fact the old testament should be worded the way The Torah is worded and all of the books should have been included,especially the Gnostic texts and Gospel of Mary and Phillip.
Name:betty47 •
Date: 04/30/07 20:18
A: Thanks, Panluna. I will look up the white tara. I also need to get the Jesus Dynasty by Dr. Tabor.
Name:jsm •
Date: 05/01/07 2:40
A: Panluna,
"The bible has been revised so many times."
To make it easy to understand with todays language. The KJV is translated straight from the original manuscripts.
"Point in fact the old testament should be worded the way The Torah is worded and all of the books should have been included"
Just because a manuscript is claimed to be 2000 years old, does not mean that it is inspired by God and deserves a place in the bible. It has to be consistent with all the other manuscripts to be considered factual. Why would 20 people write about something at different times and their the same, and one other person writes about something 180 degrees? And I love the people that jump on the one persons bandwagon rather then the other 20 peoples.
"especially the Gnostic texts and Gospel of Mary and Phillip."
If thats the case then cut and paste The Da Vinci code into your bible.
Name:JMD •
Date: 05/01/07 7:28
A: Panluna: "JMD That's what meditation teaches us: to connect with the soul within and recognize and respect its existance in all lifeforms and how Spirit animates and binds.Nameste!!! Have you found the White Tara?"
Er, ...maybe it was the Green Tara I found?! :b
"Palden, with twenty years of Buddhist spiritual training behind her, and drawing on her profession of psychotherapist, teaches traditional practices within a non-hierarchical feminine perspective that honors and facilitates the inner wisdom of each seeker. Periodically she meets a group of us on the mountain to lead a Green Tara meditation, invoking the power of this great female emanation to inform our practice. Seated in the meadow, I look far out to the green Pacific glistening in the sunlight. And it seems to me that while our participation as women in American Buddhism sometimes meets obstacles, still it opens in promise as vast as this huge expanse of sky and ocean before me..."
Panluna, as it's now May 1, May Day, I wish you a happy Beltane ! And dedicate this to you - [I actually know a few Morris dancers, and watched them perform on May day last year.]:
"Bonfires, maypoles, and Morris Dancers all celebrate the awakening of the Earth. In ancient times, there was a fear that the Earth would continue to slumber and remain fallow unless properly awoken at the Fire Festival Beltane. Morris Dancers woke the Earth from its winter sleep by rhythmically knocking wooden staves on the ground as they danced to summon the return of bountiful crops...."
-Abby Willowroot
Betty47: "I will have to find this White Tara you speak of. I wish I had more time to meditate myself."
Betty - try to make time for meditation; it's worth it. Even only 10-15 minutes a day, is beneficial. While I don't have time at the moment, Betty, if you'd like, I'll take the time to write up a post within the next week or so, as regards the "kingdom within"? - Jesus says in the NT that the Kingdom is without, and that it's within you. It may be beneficial for you, as regards meditating/exploring the "kingdom within"?, and I'd work strictly from a Christian perspective, as I know you're a Catholic, and I'll
use the NT sayings/parables of Jesus only, and no Gnostic texts/sayings.
And thanks for stating the following Betty (Just to let you know, in my opinion, I think you're one of the more intelligent and thoughtful Christians on this site):
"I am a white Catholic Christian woman too and find the above to be the most anti-Semitic comment on this site of many anti-semitic comments in this forum. I think you are proving the original post to be correct. People who claim to be good Christians are spreading anti-Jewish comments around the world every day."
The NT contains anti-Semitic passages, unfortunatly, and that's why some Christians hate Jews - look at Mel Gibson in his drunken rage, rallying against Jews. He apologized for it, admitted to his drinking problem, but still....
The various NT manuscripts were changed/modified numerous times, and some of these Christian scribes were anti-Semitic, not objective, and today the NT has anti-Semitic passages -just as scribes who didn't think much of women, 'downplayed' their roles in the NT. (only the ignorant will claim we have the original NT manuscripts, and there have been no changes/modifications to them, no mis-translations, bias, etc.)
Jesus was a Jew, so a Christian who is anti-Semitic is against Jesus, too, in my opinion/belief.
From Elaine Pagels intro to her book "The Origin of Satan", published 1995. (an excellent book; but then, I like all of her books. She's quite a brilliant scholar and I've respected her for years):
"Research for this book has made me aware of aspects of Christianity I find disturbing. During the past several years, rereading the gospels, I was struck by how their vision of supernatural struggle both expresses conflict and raises it to cosmic dimensions. This research, then, reveals certain fault lines in Christian tradition that have allowed for the demonizing of others throughout Christian history - fault lines that go back nearly two thousand years to the origins of the Christian movement.
While writing this book I often recalled a saying of Soren Kierkegaard: 'An
unconscious relationship is more powerful than a conscious one.' "
"For nearly two thousand years, for example, many Christians have taken for granted that Jews killed Jesus and the Romans were merely their reluctant agents, and that this implicates not only the perpetrators but (as Matthew insists) all their progeny in evil. Throughout the centuries, countless Christians listening to the gospels absorbed, along with the quite contrary sayings of Jesus, the association between the forces of evil and Jesus' Jewish enemies. Whether illiterate or sophisticated, those who heard the gospel stories, or saw them illustrated in their churches, generally assumed both their historical accuracy and their religious validity."
Chapters in Pagel's book include:
"The Social History of Satan: From the Hebrew Bible to the Gospels"
"Satan's Earthly Kingdom: Christians Against Pagans"
"The Enemy Within: Demonizing the Heretics"
From the back cover: "In the Old Testament he is merely the Adversary, a forbidding member of God's retinue. How then did Satan become the Gospels' prince of darkness, who brings about the crucifixion of Jesus as part of a cosmic struggle between good and evil? And why did Jesus' followers increasingly identify Satan with their human antagonists - first Jews, then pagans, and then heretics of their own faith? ...'The Origin of Satan' is at once a masterpiece of erudition and a book resonant with contemporary implications. For in its pages we come to understand how the gospel of love could coexist with hatreds that have haunted Christians and non-Christians alike for two thousand years."
Name:fabulous1 •
Date: 05/01/07 13:55
A: betty- You read what you only wanted to read and comment on. I never claimed to be a good christian-no where in my post does it say that. When you can address my post fully-get back to me. FYI The jews did kill Jesus. I don't and won't back off that point ever.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 05/01/07 14:06
A: JMD,
The Green Tara is the younger version of The White Tara the feminine equal of Buddha.You can find The Tara Box on Amazon.com or from New World Library.com.Thank you for your dedication on Beltane.I'll see if I can find acopy of Elaine Pagel's book.
Name:fabulous1 •
Date: 05/01/07 14:08
A: JMD Where in my post does it say I'm a good christian? It's not there. How is my statement anti semitic? I guess it doesn't say in the bible that Jesus was sick of the barting going on outside the Temples. I didnot say Judism is the only faith money orentated. READ! Jews and other races, INCLUDING MINE, need to get over it and move on! I didn't hurt a paticular race. My Grandfather was one of the men who helped free the Jewish people in death camps(1death camp). Do the jews owe me and my family anything. NO! It was just the right thing to do! Stop living in the past. I'm sick of the cry babies.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 05/01/07 14:26
A: JSM,
Have you read The Other Bible or the Aprocaphia(sp?).They contain the excluded books.The Stone edition of the Hebrew Bible is to the letter of the Word and is different from King James version or the other editions I have in my possession.I'm aware of the fact that the Bible had to be revised to suit the language needs of the populace.And the DaVinci Code based it's premise on the Grail legend of Mary Magdelene and Sarah,who escaped to Gaul and her descendants married into the nobility of Europe.Of course the ossuary findings prove Mary was buried in the Jesus family tomb.But what happened to Sarah?Was she in one of the unmarked oussuaries or did Joseph of Arimethia bring her(as the Grail) to Avalon as told in the legend?I know about the Black Madonna Legend.
Name:JMD •
Date: 05/01/07 20:45
A: fabulous1: "JMD Where in my post does it say I'm a good christian? It's not there."
Is that why you didn't capitalize Christian? -"good christian".
You said to Betty: "FYI The jews did kill Jesus. I don't and won't back off that point ever."
Oh yes, let's just blame the Jews solely for killing Jesus- after all, to you, the Romans are totally innocent, right?
Elaine Pagels, in the intro to 'The Origin of Satan', says it better than I can, after she discusses how some scholars feel (quoting Josef Blinzler) "that the main responsibility rests on the Jewish side."
Pagels continues with:
"But scholars who take more skeptical views of the historical plausibility of these narratives emphasize Roman responsibility for Jesus execution, which, they suggest, the gospel writers tended to downplay so as not to provoke the Romans in the aftermath of the unsuccessful Jewish war against Rome."
"I agree as a working hypothesis that Jesus' execution was probably imposed by the Romans for activities they considered seditious - possibly for arousing public demonstrations and (so they apparently believed) for claiming to be "king of the Jews." Among his own people, however, Jesus appeared as a radical prophetic figure whose public teaching, although popular with the crowds, angered and alarmed certain Jewish leaders, especially the Temple authorities, who probably facilitated his capture and arrest."
That's "certain" Jewish leaders, so why all the anti-Semitic passages then in the NT ?
And the main reason I posted what Betty47 said, is because there's been a lot of anti-Semitism, and yes, much of it is far worse than anything you said. I should maybe have explained a bit more. The thing is, I just liked that Betty47 is a Christian who is disgusted with the anti-Semitism that still goes on in our world, and came right out and said so.
There was a topic here started awhile back, something about asking Simcha Jacobovici questions, as he was going to be on some talk show, or radio show. And some of the remarks in there were absolutely disgusting [I think they were eventually deleted, thank goodness.]
As of the end of February, when I first heard/read about the announcement of the Lost Tomb of Jesus, I've been reading a lot of comments by so-called Christians -as well as others- that were full of pure hatred for particularly Simcha Jacobovici and James Cameron, but not limited to just them. Even if a Christian wants to consider Jacobovici or Cameron an "enemy" of theirs, as this theory is too upsetting, or they think it's a 'hoax' or whatever, well, doesn't Jesus say in the New Testament to love your enemies? Do good to those who persecute you?
However, what gives me hope, is while strolling through all the mud slinging, ridicule, hatred, on various websites, message boards, blogs, every once in awhile, I'd come across a Christian voice, like a bright light, one that is not full of hate and ridicule, but excitement and curiosity about this Talpiot tomb theory, and questioning perhaps their own bias, wanting to get to the truth.
I think it's long overdue, that we start honoring the term "Judeo-Christian". It's a term that can and should, link Jews and Christians together, to get along as human beings. Don't you think that's what Jesus would really want? But then, as the wise, late and great Eleanor Roosevelt said years ago: "No one has yet lived up to the teachings of Christ."
Jesus spoke against hierarchies of power and privilege, too, in the NT but that saying/teaching is oftentimes ignored. In the NT Jesus also says that only God is to be referred to as "Holy Father" yet the pope claims that title for himself. Can that not be seen as blasphemy?
Institutionalized Christianity has been more about politics than the teachings/sayings of Jesus, and more about Paul and Peter, than Jesus and his brother James. In one of the Gnostic texts, when the disciples ask Jesus who to turn to (when he isn't there), he tells them to go to James.
Awhile ago, I read a piece by a Christian minister, who, while he doesn't accept this tomb theory at all, made it clear that he thinks it is wrong to show the hatred and ridicule and even 'threats' towards Simcha and crew that've been shown/stated. He wisely believes it is not the proper Christian attitude.
Panluna: "The Green Tara is the younger version of The White Tara the feminine equal of Buddha."
I know Panluna. While I have books on Buddhism as well as Zen, a couple books on the Dalai Lama, I still have not read/studied all that much about Buddhism, compared to some of my other studies. In any regard, the Green Tara is best for me at this point, is just how I see things -for myself.
And I hope you do read that Elaine Pagels book, Panluna. You'd likely get a lot out of it, as I have. Pagels book "Beyond Belief: The Secret Gospel of Thomas" is also an interesting read.
One of my most recent studies [only have a couple books so far -beginners books] is Kabbalah. And one thing noted in the inside cover of Pagels 'Gospel of Thomas' book, is this: "Pagels compares such sources as Thomas's gospel (which claims to give Jesus' secret teaching, and finds its closest affinities with Kabbalah).... "
One of the books I have, and am currently reading [I oftentimes have 5 or so books on the go at any given time], is called "A Guide To The Hidden Wisdom of Kabbalah", "with Ten Complete Kabbalah Lessons", by Rabbi Michael Laitman, published 2002. [I'm reading this slowly.]
Rabbi Laitman notes, before the intro to the book:
"Kabbalists throughout the generations referred to our time as the turning point, after which mass apprehension of the spiritual realm would begin. Kabbalah is gaining popularity, despite the fact that very few people really understand what it is about, why it is called a secret science, how people come to it, etc. However, the eagerness is already felt among the masses, exactly as the great Kabbalist prophesized many centuries ago."
From the back cover of this book: "... In order to further advance our understanding of the wisdom of Kabbalah, we need to lift our mind's eye above the horizon of our material world. Kabbalah clarifies our perception of reality. What we see around us is subjective and exists only in relation to ourselves. Our perception depends on our organs of sensation: if they were different, we would perceive another world around us."
I'd like to read Isaac Luria, because I found an article on Kabbalah and Gnosticism, and they'd noted about the "spark" and that while it was "never explicitly formulated in the literature of the early Kabbalah, [it] becomes a central concept in the Kabbalah of Isaac Luria. In the Lurianic scheme the spark or "sparks" become enmeshed in the lower worlds as a result of the cosmic catastrophe known as the "breaking of the vessels."
"There's a world of difference between truth and facts. Facts can obscure truth."
-Maya Angelou
Name:fabulous1 •
Date: 05/01/07 22:05
A: JMD I will not take back "the jews killed Jesus" The Jews had the romans do thier dirty work. That is a fact! Your post has had grammar errors. This is a board not a paper for class. Get over good christain thing. You are wrong and admit it. That was not posted in my 1st post! At least I'm honest with my feelings and people know where I stand. I don't hide, like some people. You seem to have a alot of time to write. You should write a book Life According to JMD. I'm sure it would be a best seller. Again get over yourself!
Name:fabulous1 •
Date: 05/01/07 22:13
A: FYI JMD, the post was in response to Filled with hope. If you read the post, I am responding to that person. It was not addressed to you or anyone else, but FILLEDWITHHOPE. If that post isn't anti semitic I don't know what is. Since you have now moved on to my post to you, I welcome a rational conversation. I'd be willing to read about how the Jews did not have Jesus killed. Don't write a novel-just get to the point.
Name:betty47 •
Date: 05/02/07 1:22
A: "fabulous1: You read what you only wanted to read and comment on. I never claimed to be a good christian-no where in my post does it say that. When you can address my post fully-get back to me. FYI The jews did kill Jesus. I don't and won't back off that point ever. "
Okay Fabulous1. You're not a good Christian. I would agree with you there. Your post speaks for itself. Very sad.
Name:betty47 •
Date: 05/02/07 1:25
A: "From JMD And the main reason I posted what Betty47 said, is because there's been a lot of anti-Semitism, and yes, much of it is far worse than anything you said. I should maybe have explained a bit more. The thing is, I just liked that Betty47 is a Christian who is disgusted with the anti-Semitism that still goes on in our world, and came right out and said so."
JMD, Thank you for your very kind words. I would second your thoughts. If Jesus was Jewish then it's surprising there are no many anti-Jews among Christians.
Also, let me add that the White Tara was Panluna's suggestion. I don't want to take credit for her words. I just said I have to study her suggestion more.
Name:betty47 •
Date: 05/02/07 1:26
A: Typo...sorry. I meant to say it's surprising there is so much anti-Jewish feelings in the Christian community.
Name:betty47 •
Date: 05/02/07 1:42
A: For those interested in various views, I invite you to google "The God Squad". They consist of Rabbi Marc Gellman and Father Tom Hartman and they often comment from both the Jewish and Christian sides on religious topics of the day. They are very bright and I find their insights to be wonderful. They are not afraid to handle controversy. I've also e-mailed questions to both of them from time to time and was delighted when they answered me.
Name:sam •
Date: 05/02/07 11:01
A: FilledwithHope,
You mentioned that you are Jewish, and "countless Christians have tried to convert you", then you said, "Millions of Jews have been killed in the name of Christianity -HOLOCAUST".
YOU KNOW THAT YOU ARE VERY LUCKY, that you live in a time when the fanatic christian and the fanatic Jews became partners and joined together (for political & economical reasons) after many years of occupationto to the muslim countries, stealing and killing people, then went together to artificially create wars to kill the Muslims everywere as they done to the Jews and the Muslims in the last hundred centuries . So now they try to convert you in the name of free speech instead of burning you, and you should thank them for that.
The policies that been carried out by the western countries led by some fantic Christian leaders making lies,and using the fanatic jews to acheive their political agendas and goals, led to the creation of the fanatic Muslims and created all the trouble that we the world is facing today.
I will continue in the next post.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 05/02/07 13:48
A: JMD,
You might enjoy reading The Secrets Of High Magic by Francis Melville.
Name:betty47 •
Date: 05/02/07 16:38
A: "from Sam: You mentioned that you are Jewish, and "countless Christians have tried to convert you", then you said, "Millions of Jews have been killed in the name of Christianity -HOLOCAUST".
YOU KNOW THAT YOU ARE VERY LUCKY, that you live in a time when the fanatic christian and the fanatic Jews became partners and joined together (for political & economical reasons) after many years of occupationto to the muslim countries, stealing and killing people, then went together to artificially create wars to kill the Muslims everywere as they done to the Jews and the Muslims in the last hundred centuries . So now they try to convert you in the name of free speech instead of burning you, and you should thank them for that.
The policies that been carried out by the western countries led by some fantic Christian leaders making lies,and using the fanatic jews to acheive their political agendas and goals, led to the creation of the fanatic Muslims and created all the trouble that we the world is facing today. I will continue in the next post. "
Sam: I apologize, but this above post from you is too barbaric for words. There is no excuse for fanatic Muslims and their violence today period. Don't try to come up with one. I have many Islamic friends and my doctor is from Lebanon who saved my son's life, and I know Islam is about peace too. However, to be very fair, Islam was spread through violence. Christianity and Judiasm did not no matter what you try to say. Israel didn't even exist when Muslims invaded India and buried alive, tortured and buried alive Sikh priests and citizens so what's your excuse for that?
Stop using Israel or the Crusades as a justification for the obscene violence is Islam today.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 05/02/07 16:47
A: Bettey 47,
I agree with you.Peace.
Name:betty47 •
Date: 05/02/07 16:52
A: I will add that I am amazed by the people who lived 2,000 years ago. Whether you believe they are gods, semi-gods, or just plain human beings, and whether you are Christian, Jewish, Sikh, Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, or whatever, the things they thought of and came up with in Jerusalem, India and other parts of the world are just amazing. It seems like 2,000 years ago was a revolution in thought, and despite all our technology now, we've not been able to improve upon their ideas. I will include some of my favorite quotes from these people. I invite others to add their favorite sayings from their traditions as well.
From Rabbi Hillel: If I am not for myself, then who will be for me? And if I am only for myself, then what am I? And if not now, when?"
From Rabbi Hillel: That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor.
The Book of Certitude: He should not wish for others that which he doth not wish for himself, nor promise that which he doth not fulfil.
From Jesus: Do unto others what you want them to do to you
Name:Panluna •
Date: 05/02/07 17:39
A: Sam,
Any chances of the Moslims agreeing on a Peace policy with the rest of the planet?Does life mean so little that they blow up their own children and anything else including Muslims who differ in religious views?The mark of Cain is visible on all of humanity but so is Jesus's lessons on forgiveness.We are beyond barbaric behaviour in most of this world.Children fight when they are little but with proper guidance they grow up and learn to get along with everyone.Children follow the examples set before them.Words are a God-given gift so that we can communicate and reach a meeting of the minds.Does it take destroying a culture to achieve world peace?I'm filled with hope that some day in the future all those individuals who would instigate trouble will learn self-control and respect boundaries..In order to reach the Kingdom of Heaven one must find peace within and live by the virtue all their lives.This is the way to bring an end to Jihad.What's wrong with LIVING productive peaceful lives?Life is the greatest gift and should be valued.Wouldn't it be nice to travel the world without the fear of terrorists?War is not the answer any more.And those hotheads stirring up trouble will succeed in bringing about their own demise.What if there is nothing after life and life is all we have?Our reward is the peaceful kingdom on earth.
Name:fabulous1 •
Date: 05/02/07 20:31
A: Betty
Thanks, you must have read my post, and you answered w/o a novel.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 05/03/07 14:41
A: Betty47,
I'll add this from the Witche's rede:Do as you will with harm to no one.
Name:JMD •
Date: 05/05/07 0:35
A: Betty47: "JMD, Thank you for your very kind words. I would second your thoughts. If Jesus as Jewish then it's surprising there are no many anti-Jews among Christians."
You're welcome. It's sad isn't it?
Elaine Pagels explained it quite well, in an objective manner, and that's why I posted it. But for some, too many words at any given time confuses them, or something?
I figured you would get the point, Betty, and you didn't let me down- it wasn't about the typo. Besides, I could care less about typos on message boards or e-mails, I'm only particular when it comes to published work, letters to the editor, resumes and cover letters. That's just how I am.
And I would have been on board sooner to respond, but the last couple days in some of my spare time, I have been doing some volunteer proofing and critiquing/discussing ideas, for a good writer friend of mine who is writing a wonderful story. I enjoy doing this type of work, and I'm just glad I can be of some help.
Here's a book I recently bought, just in case anyone is interested:
"Devils, Women, and Jews: Reflections of the Other in Medieval Sermon Stories"
by Joan Young Gregg, State University of NY Press, 1997.
"..devils, women, and Jews found a preeminent place as figures of both fear and scorn in the medieval exemplum. Like a catechism, over a long period of time, pulpit exempla simplified and reiterated a very narrow range of images of women and Jews, demonizing them through continual association, both explicit and implicit, with Satan and his minions.."
"The medieval trangulation of devils, women, and Jews germinated in the origins of Christianity itself, in the history of its ideological development and in various social, political, and economic circumstances that took shape in that period we call 'the Middle Ages'."
[which were certainly the 'dark ages' for some people.]
"..Within the ambit of an omnipresent and nearly omnipotent church, clerical influence moved these Others to the margin, determining for women and Jews, without their consent, how they could lead their lives. They were perceived not as people living by legitimate social rules and values imposed by their gender or religion, but as imperfect versions of dominant Christian masculinity."
__
Betty47: "Also, let me add that the White Tara was Panluna's suggestion."
Oh, I know, no worries. - I did say something to Panluna about it, then posted that bit about the 'Green Tara'. ?
And an early happy birthday, Betty! - I recall you'd said somewhere else that next week was your birthday? A line from a blues song comes to mind . . . "and like a rare wine, you don't get older, you just get better, give me a young, young man....:"
oops! didn't mean to put that last bit in, heh. :b [song is titled "Middle Age Blues Boogie", by 'Saffire', the 'Uppity Blues Women'.]
Panluna: "JMD, You might enjoy reading The Secrets Of High Magic by Francis Melville."
Thanks for the suggestion, Panluna, I've added it to my book list, and will try to seek and find it out at one of the bookstores I browse around in. I was reading some reviews on this book, and I came across the following, and was wondering what your opinion is of it? I have no idea:
"This is a complete rip-off of Francis King and Stephen Skinner's
classic book on magic, "Techniques of High Magic". It covers almost
exactly the same ground, and the title is only one word different."
?
Panluna: "Have you read The Other Bible or the Aprocaphia(sp?).They contain the excluded books.The Stone edition of the Hebrew Bible is to the letter of the Word and is different from King James version or the other editions I have in my possession.I'm aware of the fact that the Bible had to be revised to suit the language needs of the populace."
The version of the 'Other Bible' that I have is edited with intros by Willis Barnstone, and contains Ancient Scriptures, Gnostic Gospels, Dead Sea Scrolls, Visionary Wisdom Texts, Christian Apocrypha, Jewish Pseudepigrapha, and Kabbalah.
Panluna: "And the DaVinci Code based it's premise on the Grail legend of Mary Magdelene and Sarah,who escaped to Gaul and her descendants married into the nobility of Europe.Of course the ossuary findings prove Mary was buried in the Jesus family tomb.But what happened to Sarah?Was she in one of the unmarked oussuaries or did Joseph of Arimethia bring her(as the Grail) to Avalon as told in the legend?I know about the Black Madonna Legend."
Who knows for certain? Can speculate is about all one can do. Could have been more than one child, could be in one of the plain ossuaries? Could be in France? I just prefer to forget about hard cold 'facts', and just enjoy reading some of the mythical grail legends without worrying so much about it, because sometimes when one is over concerned with finding out the facts they miss the deeper inner truth/s contained within the myth/legend.
Here are words of wisdom from a couple years ago, which still ring true today. Some quotes from an article by Mark Morford, who is one of my favourite newspaper columnists -he's brilliant in a delightful, wickedly witty, stingingly sarcastic, outrageously hilarious, right-on-you-tell-it! kind of way. Talk about someone who really riles up the rad right Christian fundamentalists; and he does it so well.....
"Where Are The Good Christians? / The fanatics and nutjobs now running the show sure give honest believers a bad name
By Mark Morford, SF Gate Columnist
Wednesday, April 6, 2005
I know they're out there.
I forget, often, too often, just how many there are but I know they exist
in much larger numbers than you might be led to believe by current
spiritually embarrassing headlines and I know they are just as, if not
more, passionate and healthy and deeply felt in their beliefs than the
overpublicized sects of angry and frothing "true believers" screeching
into the megaphone of the culture, the ones yanking BushCo's chain and
pounding their Bibles and hiding their warped porn fetishes and forcing
their way into our lives and laws and bedrooms right now.
They are the decent Christians. They are the calm, morally progressive,
compassionate, open-hearted Jesus-loving folk ..."
"They are Episcopalians, for example, that most nimble and intelligent
and groundbreaking of Christian churches, a rather revolutionary sect that recently elected its first openly gay bishop and supports gay marriage and dares to ordain women as priests.
And they're still deeply involved in amazing charity work, AIDS and
orphanages and Africa and stuff that makes you humble and amazed
and they have not, due to this seemingly blasphemous dichotomy and
much to the shock of their homophobic conservative brethren, been
struck by lightning or doomed to hell for all eternity -- or, rather, if they
have, they'll go down happy and intelligent and singing and believing in
Jesus anyway, all the way down.
They are the legions of recovering Catholics, people for whom the radiant and positive aspects of this most intense of faiths still hold powerful sway but who just can't abide by the ridiculous and outdated and often homophobic and sexist doctrines hurled forth like so much flaccid manna from the unhappy red-robed automatons of Vatican City.
They are the moderate Christians, the ones who do not support illegal
wars or the killing of all doctors who perform abortions and who are
all for social justice and who think Bush is a bit of an imbecile, and even
if they find themselves for some unfortunate reason in support of the
Republican cause overall, they still think it's rather abhorrent that the
man dares invoke God to support his lie-ridden wars and the smashing
down of women's rights and gay rights and abuse of the environment
et al."
"And these Christians -- let us call them "normal" or perhaps "natural" or
even "organic" (i.e.; devoid of poisons or preservatives or Sanctimonious
Growth Hormones) -- they are filling all manner of funky or progressive
(or Unitarian) churches across many a large city in America, right now.
They are streaming into huge beautiful nonjudgmental buildings all over
San Francisco and Chicago and New York and Boston, etc., places that
welcome gays and oddballs and spiritual nomads and pantheists and anyone else who might be feeling a divine pull, and please leave your Jesus extremism at the door and let's talk about Sufism.
And they discuss stuff that sounds much closer to mystical or cosmological or otherwise paganistic energy work than the narrow, spittle-filled believe-in-Jesus-or-burn-in-hell angles of approach you keep hearing about and that tend to slash at your heart and insult your soul.
They're not radical. They're not rabid. They're not full of venom and
Rapture and they read books other than the childish Left Behind series and they don't loathe sex or despise other religions or hate their genitalia
like Tom DeLay loathes congressional law..."
"They are, in short, those who understand the deep irony that, when it
comes to religion, the ones who scream and stomp and whine the loudest are often the ones who understand their faith the least."
"Most spiritually healthy Christians are simply living their lives, praying
deeply, carefully, privately, seeing the divine all around them and
choosing Jesus' teachings as the best moral compass, especially the parts about love and healing and empathy and acceptance and turning the other cheek, about how God is not some sneering angry bearded puppeteer but rather a radiant energy force inside everyone and every living thing, always, just waiting for you to tap into it. You know, just like every other religion in existence.
They are the ones who understand that Jesus was, quite simply, one hell of a powerful teacher, and healer, and mystic, and visionary, a pacifist, a liberal, a feminist, the ultimate outsider, one of the finest examples in all of history of how to radiate pure love and compassion and divine interconnection and Lord knows we could all use more of that.
The bad news is, the rabid evangelical set is growing, this cluster of
lost and weirdly undereducated people for whom the Bible is literal
word-for-word verbatim truth and the Rapture is imminent and the Earth is just a disposable lump and the flesh is a disgusting afterthought and
should be ignored and loathed and made really really fat and sexless and sad. And, to my mind, these people deserve all the fiery verbiage and raw satire and intelligent ideological counterforce I can possibly lob their way..."
A: JMD,
Thanks for the post.I have never heard of Teqniques of High Magic but a lot of the books written and published these days draw information from books like THE GOLDEN DAWN and other earlier writtings.The books I suggested give an over all view of Wicca.You mention being a writer.
I write poetry.
Name:sam •
Date: 05/05/07 3:59
A: Panluna,
You said,
A- "Any chances of the Moslims agreeing on a Peace policy with the rest of the planet?"
--------------------------
Of cource there will be peace if:
1- The western nations (the Christians) stop using their mighty power and arms to occupy the other people land and steal their wealth ( it been done for very long, and that led to all the problems of this world)
2- If the western nations stop making lies, to serve their agenda, and respect the other people will.
3- If they bring their armies home. there are no need to have a millitary presence everywhere around the world, and they have no right to deside for the other people their way of life and living, but lett the people be free to deside for themselves.
Don't forget that all the wars and the killings and the distructions all around the world in the last twenty centuries done by the Christian and their countries countries.
B- "Does life mean so little that they blow up their own children and anything else including Muslims who differ in religious views?"
----------------------------------------
1-- The first war in Iraq was because Iraq took Kuwait, which is their own land that the British devided it as they devided Syria from Lebano and Palestine from Syrisa. The American fought the Mexican and took Texas and other states, and fought the Canadian trying to take Canada, while all those land did not belong to them in the first place. they are both thiefs.
2- The second Iraq war is a big lie, you should know by now this fact.
The war (did you ever listen to the honest Christians among them the Dimocrats) wasn't because of Saddam or his arms, but because they do not want to see a strong or a prosperous Islamic nation. and they want to keep stealing the petrol and other resources.
3- 500 hundred million that is the population ofThe Christian countries who attacked Iraq, and they have the bigest armies and arms in the world . they attacked country with 24 millions from the third world nation, with small army and hardly any good arms their stock as everyone knows is scrab that the other big countries stop to use. and the call that a big victory. It is exactly Like a gang in a school bullying one poor fellow.
If the attacker possess misiles and smart bombs and big guns, and the deffender has nothing except to sacrifice themselves to deffend their own county against the theifs and the agressor killers.
C- "The mark of Cain is visible on all of humanity but so is Jesus's lessons on forgiveness."
-----------------------------------
You- call yourself Christians but you do not follow His teaching of love and peace but you follow Paul (my next post I will show you who Paul really is). Killing and stealing !!!, I don't think that Jesus will agree with you, that is for sure.
D- "We are beyond barbaric behaviour in most of this world"
--------------------------------------
First-,- Iraq people, Sunni , Shiite and Christians before the Christian attack from the west they use to live in peace (in all the Muslim countries), and the few hundred killed by Saddam, where those who been paid by the outsider to devide the country (The first government in Iraq were heade by spies who been paid by the west -you should know this fact if you are listening to the news of your county). The real barbarian are those Christians who came from the west and bombed bridges and shools with children in it and bombed from the air or by missiles houses full of innocent families, and bombed factories which produce food and process milk for the children. The real barbarians are those who killed more than 500000 people and left millions with a scars of the war and specially the children who been living in hell for more than four years, and left millions live in poverty, and sent out more than 4,000,000 refugees. That is a barbaric acts .What happen in Iraq is from some bad Christiand doing, I don't think they possess any honour, and the country who run this war and other wars around the globe the are hated even by some honest people in some western countries like France Germany Sweeden even 60% of the British are aginst this war.
WHO ARE THE BARBARIAN?,
1- The mongolian (Holaco, Temorlang and Jenkins-khan) who done a lot of distructions and killing wherever the went.
2- No one can deny that the Christian history in the west is filled with barbaric acts and actions and they surpassed the barbarian of the east.
Christians killin and burning Christian for hundred of years (do not forget Ireland). 25+ millions killed in the 1st world war, and 50+ millions killed in the 2nd world war, contries destroyed, and atom bomb used on a cities full of women and children and elders (the youngs were in the battle field you should know this fact), then the Vietnam war and all the massacres and the spraying of deadly gases (agent orange one of them) which kills people (not armies) and animals and plants, and that is the most barbaric action ever happen in all the history, and not to forget wiping out the Mayan and the Incas and most of the American Indians, and not to forget the millions who been taken from their homes and families to be slave for the Christians, those acts were done under the aprovals of the Churches and went on for centuries, even today in the country which you call the free worls there are discrimation against the colered people and the Jews. and dont forget the 5+million Jews who been killed in Europe. If you want more of this stuff read your own history which was written by your own people.
Be at list fair when you judge the others religions, and do not spread lies like the others, and compare both fairly then you can see the truth .
Jesus said:
"WHY DO YOU LOOK AT THE SPECK THAT IS IN YOUR BROTHER'S EYE, BUT DO NOT NOTICE THE LOG THAT IS IN YOUR OWN EYE.
and Jesus always say the truth and He is 100% right and you are 100% wrong.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 05/05/07 4:18
A: Sam,
I'm not a Christian and I do not judge other religions.I ask questions to satisfy my curiosity.I like to remain unbiased and neutral so that I can observe impartially.I don't mean to offend but I like to get to the facts and answers.Maybe there is a way to deal with the problems of this world in a peaceful rational way.Do you have a solution?
Name:Shlomo •
Date: 05/05/07 21:23
A: The method of operation for Islam has been expansionism since the time of Abd'al Uzza [ Muhammed ]. Christians are not out of the picture either, they also used the method of expansionism of their beliefs since time of their messiah [ Jesus ]. But the methods of expansionism is the key and prevailing difference between the two. Ancient historical writers to the writers of today have intimated the methods used by both sects. Whether you agree with these writers or not is another issue in of itself.
Name:JMD •
Date: 05/06/07 16:20
A: Sam: "Don't forget that all the wars and the killings and the distructions all around the world in the last twenty centuries done by the Christian and their countries countries."
That's a lie. You can't blame 'all' wars/killings on Christians. All religions have been destructive in their own ways, some more than others perhaps, but none are innocent. So you want to play the 'blame game' and blame Christians for 'all' wars and killings throughout the centuries? What about the wars/killings/terrorism that radical Islamic fundamentalists have started/done and continue to do. ...hmm?
You turn a blind eye to all of that? If so, I think you're the one who needs to take the log out of your eye.
Sam: "Does life mean so little that they blow up their own children and anything else including Muslims who differ in religious views?"
What about the Muslims who kill other Muslims? Why don't you mention any of that? (oh yes, because your bias is quite clear.)
Some of the extreme radical Muslims even 'threaten' the more moderate, tolerant -i.e., more enlightened Muslims - as they don't want the moderate Muslims to have a voice! You talk about 'differ in religious views', yet the radical hardcore fundamentalist Muslims don't even want moderate Muslims to speak, and thus they threaten them. [What I always keep in mind though, is that the high majority of Muslims are 'NOT' terrorists.]
There was a moderate Muslim newspaper columnist whose articles I used to like reading - he was all for tolerance with other religions, believed in peace and love, equality/women's rights, talked about how harmful Sharia law was for particularly women, etc., [and he's correct, but then, he's not a macho male-supremacist thug], and he wrote some excellent articles/opinion pieces. But, he not long ago stepped down from the newspaper - why? Well, because he'd been receiving too many threats, including death threats against his family, and it was NOT Christians who were threatening him, but, rather, it was threats coming from the radical Islamists, as they want moderate Muslims silenced.
Moderate Muslims Speak Out, But Not on PBS
By Kevin Mooney
CNSNews.com Staff Writer
April 25, 2007
"(CNSNews.com) - Islamists are working to build "parallel societies" with the aim of imposing strict Islamic law in parts of the West, according to a documentary the Public Broadcasting Service has chosen not to air.
"Islam vs. Islamists: Voices from the Muslim Center" highlights the work
of moderate Muslims who oppose the Islamist agenda and are willing to
speak out. PBS officials decided against airing the film, which PBS's
Robert MacNeil told the Diane Rehm Show earlier this month was "one-sided" and "alarmist."
Some of the key Muslim figures featured in the documentary believe PBS is practicing censorship and doing a disservice to the American public. The film, which was supposed to be part of a PBS series, cost taxpayers more than $600,000.
Danish lawmaker Naser Khader has been at the center of debate in his own country over the practice of Islamic law (shari'a). An imam has sought to impose shari'a outside the framework of Danish law, the film contends. Khader, a Muslim originally from Syria, has argued against the move.
"For such opinions, he has aroused the wrath of those who want Islamic
parallel societies within Denmark," says the film's voiceover.
Khader discusses some of the menacing messages he has received, including threats such as, "We will kill you," "We will make your life a hell," and "If you participate in democracy you are a traitor."
Radicals who oppose the parliamentarian's views often "turn his election speeches into chaos," the documentary states.
"It reminds me of what happened to Germany in the 1930s," Khader says in the film.
Zuhdi Jasser, president of Islamic Forum for Democracy, also is featured in the film. He told Cybercast News Service that the mainstream media and public television officials are responsible for the unbalanced coverage of America's Muslim community.
He also said there is a concerted effort by well-organized, well-financed
Islamist organizations to silence moderate voices.
Jasser and other participants on Tuesday named the Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR) as among those groups. One of the film's co-producers, Alex Alexiev of the Center for Security Policy, called CAIR "as radical as they come."
CAIR describes itself as a civil rights group, but has stoked controversy
over its tactics, some of its sources of funding, and involvement in
terrorism of some of its officials.
Attempts to get CAIR's reaction Monday and Tuesday were unsuccessful.
"Those of us who try to raise debates are not responded to [with]
scripture, or in an intellectual way," Jasser said. "We are instead
responded to with ridicule and told we are false Muslims."
Full article:
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.as-p?Page=/Culture/archive/200704/CUL20070425d.htm-l-
Name:sam •
Date: 05/07/07 16:02
A: JMD,
This was your answer,
A- "That's a lie.You can't blame 'all' wars/killings on Christians.
----------------------------------------
Ca-n- you deny what is written in your history?, and by your people. Here some samples:
MUSLIMS IN SPAIN: (Spain history)
The high point of Islamic culture in Spain occurred in the 10th century. Muslim rulers introduced new crops and efficient irrigation systems, trading and commerce thrived, and mathematics, medicine, and philosophy flourished.
Under the tolerant spirit of the Arabs Spain's prosperity flourished. ARAB (MUSLIM) LAWS ENTITLED THE CHRISTIANS TO RELIGIOUS FREEDOM. Employment at court, public office, and military service. One third of the twelve thousand men forming the select and splendidly equipped guard of the Moorish caliph were in fact Christians. Nonetheless, SOME CHURCH LEADERS TAUGHT THEIR CONGREGATIONS THAT RELIGIOUS TOLERANCE WAS SINFUL.
Spanish Inquisition:
The notorious hatred between Jews and Christians led the inquisitors to believe that their actions actually saved Jews from the hideous fate awaiting them in the underworld; SINCE THE JEWS WERE DYING AT THE HANDS OF GOD'S CHILDREN. (the Christian)
The Spanish government and its religious officials proclaimed the need for a pure and unified Spanish-Christian race. Following this ideal the Jews were either killed or driven out of the country.
- (While the Jews were killed in Spain and othe parts of Europe by the Christian, those who survived took refuge in the Muslim country, and were free to practice their religion, and they were treated as equals that is untill 1948 when with support of the west, pushed millions of Arabs (Muslims and Christians alike) away from their homes to be refugees living in horrible condition.)
IN AMERICA:
One day in 1541, in the city of Mani (on the Yucatan Penninsula), the Franciscan monk Diego de Landa burned the books of the Maya, forever destroying a priceless record of a great people.
In the 1520's a Spanish force of 600 men led by Hernando Cortez with horses and guns overturned an empire of 2 million that had neither.
CHRISTIANS KILLING CHRISTIANS.
In Belgium and Holland the fighting was between Catholic troops loyal to Phillip II (1527-1598) of Spain and the Protestants.
In France it was between the Catholic and the Calvanist (Huguenots).
In central Europe, there erupted the Thirty Years War between the Catholic League and the Protestant Union. This war was paritularly bloody, with DEATH TOLL estimates reaching as high as FOURTEEN MILLION.
While all the other religious wars had ended, one still lingers; in Northern Ireland. THE HISTORIC MASSACRES of the Catholics by Protestant England, the most famous one being the one led by Oliver Cromwell (1599-1658), still influences the situation in Ireland today.
LET US NOT FORGET THE HISTORY OF THE BLACK SLAVES IN AMERICA.
THE KILLING MACHINE.
world war 1:
World War I lasted from August 4, 1914 to November 11, 1918. It involved many of the countries of Europe as well the United States and other nations throughout the world. More than 10 million people were killed and more than 20 million wounded.
world war 2:
Second World War, was a worldwide conflict which lasted from 1939 to 1945. Some 60 million people died in the war, including about 20 million soldiers and 40 million civilians.
NO ONE SHOULD FORGET THE KILLING OF 5 MILLION+ JEWS IN EUROPE.
NO ONE SHOULD FORGET THE MILLIONS WHO KILLED BY EUROPEAN IN THE COLONIES AROUND THE WORLD, BY THE FRENCH, BRITISH, SPANISH, PORTUGUEESE, RUSSIAN,DUTCH ETC.
B- All religions have been destructive in their own ways, some more than others perhaps,
---------------------------------------
Ca-n- you see the difference between the rule of Muslim in Spain, and the rule of the Christian all around the world?.
Did you know that muslim in war they do not commit atrocities, they do not kill women and children or anyone without arms "CIVILIANS", and they do not burn houses or libraries or ruin farmland.
You might bring those few individual who commit murder in the last few years AS AN EXAMPLE, but the reason for them is in the first place IS to free their countries from the western occupation, who put their soldiers and arm in their land and steal their resources. The western countries has no right to put their armies in the other people land, or attack country and kill it is people for no reason at all, except by making lies about it, it happen in many other places, they create some incedent then follow it by occupation.
LEAVE PEOPLE GOVERN THEIR CONTRY ALONE, AND THERE WILL BE PEACE FOR ALL, FOR SURE.
Tell me the truth, do you know if any Muslim country in the last three or four centuries who sent their armies to attack and occupy any European OR AMERICAN or any Christian country and massacres their people. please bring the facts.
Many talk about what happen in Iraq in the last four years, but did you know that the people of that country they use to live in peace, Shiite Sunni, Christian , curd and Jews (I lived in that country from 1952-58 and we own a large business (the first depatment store in Baghdad) and the 15 employees worked with us, men and women, all Christians -Asyrians/Talkefies/Protestand- and we dealt with several Jewish businessmans who been the main supplyers for some products, and the agent for many European companies, and they were more as friends after years of dealing with each other.
The war there came from a BIG LIE, now everyone knows this fact, and the war changed everything, the killing of more than half a million civilian, and wonding million of men women and children, and sending 4 million refugees away from their home, and all that for no reason at all, that is the biggest crime of the 21st century, and the result of the war and all the crime that follows are the result of those lies, and you cannot blame what happen after to the Iraqi people, while they are still under occupation, and the machine of war distroying their homes and businesses, and women and children been horrified by the sound of bullets and bombs and tanks and planes and missiles for four years, and there is no work or clean water or enough food, and no safety whatsoever. The blame should be on the countries who used lies to destroy other people contry.
People should be honest when judging things.
My daughter-in -law, is a Catholic (Irish) and she is a doctor , and with her family they agree that was wrong and it was built on lies, and they hate even to look at the news, when the pictures from Iraq put on the screen day after day for so long.
God bless you.
C- but none are innocent. So you want to play the 'blame game' and blame Christians for 'all' wars and killings throughout the centuries?
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Tha-t- is no game to play, the truth is there, all written in the history books and by your people mostly, so do not deny the truth. WHO SEND THEIR ARMIES TO OCCYPY OTHER PEOPLE LAN AND STEAL THEIR RESOURCES?, please give your answer.
Name:JMD •
Date: 05/08/07 0:58
A: Panluna: "JMD, Thanks for the post.I have never heard of Teqniques of High Magic but a lot of the books written and published these days draw information from books like THE GOLDEN DAWN and other earlier writtings.The books I suggested give an over all view of Wicca.You mention being a writer. I write poetry."
Panluna, I do appreciate the book recommendations. And since you are a poet, why don't you start a poetry thread and put some of your poems there, if you don't mind? I'd really like to read some of your poetry. Others can add their poems, too. I write Haiku is pretty much it as regards poetry in my case.
Writing is mainly just a fun hobby for me, just something I've always liked to do; (reading and writing are my favourite things to do in my spare time.)It's been over 2 years since I've had an article published, and I've not written a letter to the editor for awhile. Though I have been, off and on, for the last few years, researching/note taking for a book I plan to write, but it'll take me years to complete.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 05/08/07 14:27
A: JMD,
I might try the poetry thread in a little while.I really liked Anchorite's poetry.Some poems were contributed through out the blog site.
Name:Anchorite •
Date: 05/18/07 4:35
A: THE DAUGHTER
Moses mulled a moral law
Sartre said no point
Heraclitus didn't dare
Try to interfere
(Rand concurred it's up to her)
Dad Socratic knew her naught
Though he questioned much
Aristotle deemed her nice
Since averages suffice
Lao let her operate
That's just how she goes
Jesus thought he could forgive her
And that, no matter what
Leonardo, not quite done
Decided I'll have another one
Newton knew she'd come around
Plato'd lock her underground
Darwin hoped she'd break her date
Buddha thought she's way too late
Einstein knew she wouldn't play
To Heisenberg another day
Gödel said to take her word
No matter how absurd
Gandhi thought she could resist
Pirsig's motorcycle lift
Hubbard shew her commerce
Russell ruled enormous
Mao hoped she'd know by now
She's too old to scold
Marshall said it's only talk
Chomsky warned she'll never stop
Eventually, they'll all find out
I'm the one who let her out
Name:Panluna •
Date: 05/18/07 21:06
A: Thank you for the poem,Anchorite!!!!!
Name:Not Dattaswami •
Date: 05/23/07 4:13
A: .
Name:Not Dattaswami •
Date: 05/30/07 0:23
A: ..
Name:Panluna •
Date: 05/30/07 20:37
A: I am filled with hope that Tolerance will become the new mentality and education will liberate the mind.
