Name:sam •
Title: GOD'S KNOWLEDGE vs MAN'S KNOWLEDGE •
Date posted: 06/15/13 17:16
Q: Human knowledge vs God’s knowledge:
GOD’S KNOWLEDGE:
96:3/4/5
Recite, and your Lord is the most Generous - Who taught by the pen -
Taught man [Human] that which he knew not.
22:3
And of the people is he who disputes about Allah without knowledge ...
3:66
Here you are - those who have argued about that of which you have [some] knowledge, but why do you argue about that of which you have no knowledge? And Allah knows, while you know not.
17:85
And they ask you, [O Muhammad], about the soul. Say, The soul is of the affair of my Lord. And mankind have not been given of knowledge except a little.
2:255
Who is it that can intercede with Him except by His permission? He knows what is [presently] before them and what will be after them, and they encompass not a thing of His knowledge except for what He wills.
55:26-28
Everyone upon the earth will perish, And there will remain the Face of your Lord, Owner of Majesty and Honor.
So which of the favors of your Lord would you deny ?.
55:33/34
O company of jinn and mankind, if you are able to pass beyond the regions of the heavens and the earth, then pass. You will not pass except by authority [from Allah ].
So which of the favors of your Lord would you deny?.
71:13/14 What is [the matter] with you that you do not attribute to Allah [due] grandeur
While He has created you in stages?
The above verses are only few from many of what came in the Quran about God’s knowledge and the human knowledge, and they put in perspective the knowledge of human in comparison with God’s knowledge in which we can come to the truth.
From the above we read:
1- [Taught man [Human] that which he knew not.] All human knowledge came from God by giving him a perfect and powerful brain which is not only used to help him survive as the other living creatures do, but a creative brain that can do wonders, and that is the biggest gift from the one who created human which make him differ from apes and monkeys, and when mankind misuse and abuse that gift, they do blame God for the consequences, while when they use it in the right way they deny that their brain has anything to do with God, as if they are the creator of their brain..
2- [mankind have not been given of knowledge except a little.] From the time of the arrival of the human on this earth which been estimated, more or less, about 250 to 500 thousand years, there was no real scientific work beyond building a pyramid, or a city, or a clock etc., and only in the last hundred years man walked on the moon and sent space-craft far beyond our solar system, but with all that advance in knowledge still man has no knowledge about the real creation of life.
The soul and the DNA.
As for the soul, it is a mystery, and it is one of many in our world and in our universe, something that we talk about but we cannot see or touch , like the ‘Dark Matter’ and ‘Dark Energy’, while those are the major element that keeps the universe in order and.
alive.
If the soul still a mystery, DNA is not. Let us see what is the DNA from the knowledge of the scientists:
1- DNA stores the genetic information of all living things on earth, (except for some viruses),
2- DNA contains the genetic information that allows all modern living things to function, grow and reproduce,
3- However, there is no direct evidence of ancient genetic systems, as recovery of DNA from most fossils is impossible. This is because DNA survives in the environment for less than one million years, and slowly degrades into short fragments in solution.
4- Recombinant DNA is a man-made DNA sequence that has been assembled from other DNA sequences. [A DNA from a DNA, that is as cloning]
5-Each diploid cell in the human body consists of 46 strands of DNA, each representing each of the 46 chromosomes in the cell. Since there are about 100 trillion cells in the body (American Association for the Advancement of Science estimate), in which majority are diploid, this means that there are about 4,600 trillion DNA strands in the body.
6- It took until 1954 before the human diploid number was confirmed as 46. Considering the techniques of Winiwarter and Painter, their results were quite remarkable. Chimpanzee (the closest living relatives to modern human) have 48 chromosomes.
In the chart provide by the same scientists, they listed the chromosomes of some plants, and some animals, and other organisms. Bellow are few from the animals:
Rabbits (44) - Humans (46) - Gorillas/Chimpanzees/Orangutan (48) - Hares (48)
Domestic Sheep (54) - Capuchin monkey (54) - Elephants (56)
Cows (60) - Goat (60) - Bengal fox (60)
- Donkeys (62) - Giraffe (62) - Horses (64)
Pigeon, Turkey (80) - African wild dog, Chicken, Coyote, Dove , Dog (78)
7- On 8 August 2011, a report, based on NASA studies with meteorites found on earth, was publisher suggesting building block of DNA (adenine, guanine, and related organic molecules) may have been formed extraterrestrially in outer space.
The following are my opinion to what came in the above:
1 & 2 -Even scientists can make mistakes, and that is clear when comparing the statements (1) , All living things on earth, with (2) All ‘modern’ living things.
The number (1) is right, while number (2) is wrong, that is because every living things on earth has its own DNA, and every living things has it is own functions, and grow, and reproduce.
3/4 &5 - We can see the real advancements in science today in regard to the building structure of life on earth from getting to know the cell structure and its components which is an essential part in the starting and developing of life.
{Taught man [Human] that which he knew not. - mankind have not been given of knowledge except a little. - The creation of the heavens and earth is greater than the creation of mankind, but most of the people do not know.}
6 - The Darwinian’s theory, is just a theory. If we look at the life on earth which started with the creation of the ‘cells’ the lower forms of all living things millions of years back, and from that cell species after species were created, millions of them, until the last, the modern species of every living things which we know today, and it was crowned by the creation of man, and knowing that more species became extinct in that long period than those left today, and there are many species with us today which never changed since the beginning of time, and which brings the question why, and why only a chimp developed to became human, and why the closest relative of the chimp, the orangutan and the gorilla did not change to chimp or human ?, and not at the least became more smarter in the long period of their existence beside the chimp and the human ?.
- Scientists from the evolutionist side support their claim that human came from the chimp family from three angles, the first is from putting man and chimp side by side and compare, and of course both have almost the same fixtures, head, body ,arms and legs, and have the same organs, as well as the gorilla and the orangutan, but the only different is what inside their heads, and that is the second ,of course the chimp and the others have brain and the human have one too, so, can we jump into conclusion just because the chimp show some acts which have a sort of some intelligence, by using a stick to fight or to dig into hole to get a termite and learn very few and simple acts which he will forget by passing of time, did we forget that many animals and birds have the same ability, I think some people they do not have the ability to look at the whole picture and use the logic. The third is taken from the close similarity in their DNA, and the numbers of chromosomes. 46 in human , “Chimpanzee (the closest living relatives to modern human) have 48 chromosomes.“
If we accept this formula which put the chromosomes as an important factor, then we can say that the Donkey & Giraffe with [62 chr.] are in the same family, and the Horse [64 chr.] is a close relative to both, and the Cow & Goat with [60 chr.] are from the same family, but which one came first , or did they came from Donkey or the Giraffe which they are the closest relative in the world from the point of DNA and chromosomes ?.
7- “DNA (adenine, guanine, and related organic molecules) may have been formed extraterrestrially in outer space.” Some scientists declares.
Always, when the scientists run out of options to determine the source of life on earth, they create theories, and there are many, today they came to know scientifically everything in regard to the cell, the DNA, the chromosomes etc., but they run short of knowing precisely the source, as from where ?, or how ?, and when ?, and when they could not find an answer to those questions, they kick the ball [the can] into the ‘outer space’ .
We know that the ‘cell’ is the first block of life, while the DNA is the blue print, from which every living things came to exist and develop.
We know that there are many different cells, they live and die in different times and there are conditions for the life and death of a cell, and some bacteria cell never die on their own.
As for the scientists claiming that the DNA may have been ‘formed in outer space’, that by itself will raise two questions, the first, is where in space ?, in a extreme hot star or in a extreme cold in the void of space ?, or in another planet ?. Another planet will be the most suitable place for a DNA to be formed, that is if it has the same condition which is on the earth, and that will bring us back to square one, because the same questions will arise followed by many theory and guessing.
The second, If we believe that the DNA was formed, in outer space , or in the earth space, and it is the blue print and the ‘mechanism’ that create a sophisticated living structures, from all forms and shapes, is that by itself brings many questions, as of ‘why’, and what is the reason for it in the beginning, and what is the purpose of it, was it formed to create life and death , and that is all ?.
The other questions, was it formed by itself ?, or was it created ?. Scientists today have all the knowledge about the cell, it is structure, substance and mechanism, even they came to ‘replicate’ a DNA, but can they create a DNA ?, or know how it was created in the first place, and by whom ? .
DNA is a part of the cell in which they came to know everything about it , but within the DNA which is the blue print of life, there is within it something very important and that is the ‘bar-code’[barcoding] which identify the different species, many millions of them..
“As of February 2013, the barcode of life Datasystems Database included almost 2,000,000 barcode sequences from over 160,000 species of animals, plants, and fungi.”
“Estimated number of species on earth is 8.7 millions, 6.5 mil. On land, 2.2 mil. In oceans. So far, only 1.9 mil. Species have been found. [Canadian and U.S. researcher say]”
Those figures represent the number of species as we come to know today, but if we look back in time, knowing that there was at the least five major extinction events in the last 600 plus million years [not counting the minor events, and they are many], from the time when the first formed life appears on earth, and in each event more than 90% of species wiped out from the face of the earth, then we can see the wide scope of the real number of species that lived on our earth, and the number of barcodes, which was written in the purpose of creating them. Who created all this ?, and was it the creation of the cell, or the DNA, or the chromosomes ?.
A single cell holds within , the DNA , the chromosome, the barcoding, the seed of life, all the marvels of creation, but did the cell create itself at the first place?, and does the cell knows what is doing/making ?, can a cell switch /change by itself its barcode to change from one species to another?.
38:86-88
Say, [O Muhammad], I do not ask you for the Qur'an any payment, and I am not of the pretentious, It is but a reminder to the worlds.
And you will surely know [the truth of] its information after a time.
God telling us that the Quran is a reminder for the human that He is the creator, and told the people that what came in the Quran from information will come to be known after time.
THE CREATION
29:19/20
Have they not considered how Allah begins creation and then repeats it ? Indeed that, for Allah , is easy.
[O Muhammad], Say to them, “Go travel through the earth and observe how the creation began.”
God telling the people that the creation did not come all at one time, but the creation came one creation after another, and He asked them to search for the truth of how the creation began. No other religion book ever taught this or permitted people to go as far as to find the truth about God creation.
AFTER 1400 YEARS, AFTER TIME, man/human started their search, on the earth, in the seas and in space, and all that to find the truth about the creation of our world, from the bottom of the sea to highest point on land, and from the smallest atom to the furthermost galaxy in space, even they mapped the human body, and the many other living species so nothing can be hidden anymore, and their findings are all recorded and out there for anyone who seek knowledge to study and compare, and the comparisons are not only used to determine the truthfulness of two findings to bring a theory to became a truth by the most advanced scientific methods, but also can be used to determine of what is true knowledge, and what is false knowledge from those knowledge which we received from the past, either from ancient books as the Greek, the Roman and others who wrote about their knowledge to the world they live in, or from the religion books which came from the Hindu, the Buddhist, the Jews, the Christians and the Muslims.
It is a big field to bring all the knowledge which came from the past in regards to the creation and compare them with today’s scientific knowledge, so. I am going to take a small sample from only two books, the latest books, which will be by itself a good indicator to show which of those can be accepted scientifically and logically as to what we came to know from today’s knowledge.
THE CREATION - THE BIBLE AND THE QURAN.
Jews, Christians and Muslims, each of them believes in their books/book as the words of God, and they are the whole truth, and they are perfect, and holds no errors or contradictions.
THE CREATION STORY IN THE BIBLE.
The Bible [O.T.] started with the story of the creation, and it was described day by day, because it say ,” there was evening and there was morning”, and that is a sunrise and sunset, and that belong to the earth day, the 24 hours day, also, it is easy to notice that this story did not come from God, because that is very clear from the first sentence:
Genesis 1:1 At the first God made the heaven and the earth.
The story came from those who wrote Genesis, and not from God , because if God gave the story, it should come as : “ I/we made the heaven and the earth”, as we see in the words of the Quran, and here few examples, followed by notes:
46:3 We did not create the heavens and earth and what is between them except in truth and [for] a specified term.
God is saying, that He created everything in truth, and for everything created there is a specified term, as a life period, from it is start to it is end. And that is true if we look at the cycle of every living thing on earth, and even the stars has a cycle too.
50:15 Did WE fail in the first creation ?. But they are in confusion over a new creation.
A good question came from God who started the first creation and repeat it, and also God gave good answer for those who are confused as Darwin and his followers who created their theory on the observation of man and chimp while today’s scientist are telling us that man, chimp, cow, Dog, and thousands of other mammal species all came ‘at approximately’ in the time period which is between 1 & 2 millions years, and that is a very short period to bring in evolution that number of new species. By the way, those evolutionist never created a ‘FLY’ , and they do not know from which insect came the ‘BEE’.
The following is an interesting subject that I came to read today:
“4. There are approximately 1.9 million species of living organisms on earth. This number may be much higher because new species are continually being discovered each day, particularly insects and nematodes in remote tropical regions. However, at the present rate of destruction, most of the virgin tropical rain forest will be annihilated by the end of the 20th century, so many species will never be known to humans. It is estimated that 99 percent of all the species that have ever lived on earth were already extinct before humans ever walked on this planet. Although humans have a phenomenal impact on the ecology of earth, they are relative newcomers on this great planet. It is estimated that the earth is over 4.5 billion years old, and ancient life forms (such as the cyanobacteria) appeared about 2-3 billion years ago. If the geologic history of the earth is compared to a 24-hour time scale, the first multicellular organisms do not appear until just after 8:00 P.M. and humans are not on the scene until less than a minute before midnight.
5. There are more than one million species of animals (Kingdom Animalia), more than all the other kingdoms combined. More than half of all animal species are insects (800,000 species), and beetles (300,000 species) comprise the largest order of insects (one fifth of all species--using a total of 1.5 million). In fact, if all the species of plants and animals on earth were lined up at random, every 5th species would be a beetle.”
50:38 And We did certainly create the heavens and earth and what is between them in six days, and there touched Us no weariness.
And there are many other verses, 37 verses, that came direct from God when HE mentioned the creation, ‘WE CREATED’, ‘WE CREATED YOU’, ‘WE CREATED HIM’
After Genesis 1 , the long story of creation went on day by day, and there is no need to copied all, it is in the book for anyone to go back and read it, but I will make a summary, a brief account for the main points;
Day 1 - Made the heaven and the earth - made the light - made division between the light and the dark , and named them day and night .
Day 2 - Made solid arch over the water, and gave the arch the name of heaven.
Day 3 - brought the water together, and brought the land up, and named them earth and seas, and he made the grass and plants and trees etc..
Day 4 - Made lights in the arch of heaven, and made two great lights, the sun and the moon, and made the stars.
Note: We can see in the above that the heaven is an arch above the earth, and the earth was created before the sun and the stars, and for three days there was evening and morning on earth before the introduction of the sun, and the grass and trees grow in the absence of the sun .
Day 5 - Made the creatures of the sea, and the birds.
Day 6 - Made the cattle and others, and all sort of beasts.
Genesis 1:27 And God made man in his image, in the image of God he made him: male and female he made them.
Note: That makes God looks like a man, maybe a superman, who worked hard in the 6 days work, and needed a rest in day 7.
Genesis 2:2 And on the seventh day God came to the end of all his work; and on the seventh day he took his rest from all the work which he had done.
The Bible tell us that all the creation done and completed in 6 days, while the Quran tells us the creation came as a long series of creation and for a long time, a continuos creation.
While the Bible tells us that God needed rest , The Quran tells us that God does not get tired, and does not need to rest :
50:38 And We did certainly create the heavens and earth and what is between them in six days*, and there touched Us no weariness.
* DAY, in the Quran means a period of time , not 24 hours day [evening & morning], since it was mentioned as example that a ‘day’ can be the length of a thousand years or fifty thousand years.
If we look at the ‘Geologic Record’ map [from, “Hammond Medallion world atlas”], which was produced today by scientists we will find the ‘evolution/creation’ of life on earth which started 600 million ago, at a period of time which they call the ‘CAMBRIAN’ . Before that was the ‘PRE-CAMBRIAN’ which was presented by [?] .
Between then , the Cambrian period , and now the Quaternary period, the Geological map shows us 12 period as follow:
Cambrian - Ordovician - Silurian - Devonian - Mississippian - Pennsylvanian - Permian - Triassic - Jurassic - Cretaceous - Tertiary - Quaternary.
Here the Geological map [as an example] shows us less than 100 species from the 100 millions + which been extinct in the past and the 10 millions + of species still living on the earth today.
Also the map shows other important information:
1- In every geological period of the twelve mentioned above, new species are introduced, and species became extinct.
2- In the 600 million years period , species are extinct , and species are not, and those who stayed until today never changed. Example:
Sponge - Worm - Starfish - Shark - Insect - Crocodile - Lizard - Frog - Bird etc..
3- The last geological period , ‘the Quaternary period’ on the map which cover only 1-2 million years from the 600 million years span in which they call the species of that period a ‘Modern species’.
Modern birds - Modern reptiles - Modern amphibians - Modern fishes - Modern arthropods - Modern lower invertebrates - Modern plants and with those came the ‘Modern Mammals’, in which the ‘Human’ race came to exist in that modern period.
4- It is interesting to know that in this short period of the geological time [Quaternary period], came the human , the primitive and the modern, and before him or in a closer time came the Ape, the Monkey, the Deer, the Cow, the Horse, the Dog, the Whale, the Kangaroo , and millions of other modern species, but since we know that the estimates of the number of major extinctions in the last 540 million years range from as few as five to more than twenty, and the most recent, the ‘cretaleous-Paleogene extinction event, which occurred approximately 66 million years ago, was a large scale mass extinction of animal and plant species in a geologically short period of time. 75% of all species became extinct. Also we should know there are many ‘lesser extinction events
And God asked the people, the human, to search for the truth, the truth about everything, from the creation of the heaven [the universe] to the creation of the earth and what is on it.
31:10/11
He created the heavens without pillars that you see and has cast into the earth firmly set mountains, lest it should shift with you, and dispersed therein from every creature. And We sent down rain from the sky and made grow therein [plants] of every noble kind.
This is the creation of Allah . So show Me what those other than Him have created. Rather, the wrongdoers are in clear error.
17:99
Do they not see that Allah, who created the heavens and earth, is able to create the like of
them ?. And He has appointed for them a term, about which there is no doubt.....
INFORMATION in the Quran came in two ways:
Direct information or through examples.
Direct information:
21:30
Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?
[The Big Bang theory]
51:47
And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are [its] expander.
[The expanding universe theory]
21:33
And it is He who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all [heavenly bodies] in an orbit are swimming.
[That is what we came to know today]
65:12
It is Allah who has created seven heavens and of the earth, the like of them. [His] command descends among them so you may know that Allah is over all things competent and that Allah has encompassed all things in knowledge.
[Billions of planets out there, and we came to know this fact now]
21:32
AND WE MADE THE SKY A PROTECTED CEILING, but they , from its signs are turning away.
[This is a proven fact which we came to know at this time, and after 1400 years from the time that was mentioned.]
55:19/20
HE RELEASED THE TWO SEAS MEETING SIDE BY SIDE; BETWEEN THEM IS A BARRIER [SO] NEITHER OF THEM TRANSGRESSES.
INFORMATION through examples:
Before bringing the information which came in the Quran as an example, and as a reminder , let us look at what the Quran said,
{....It is but a reminder to the worlds. And you will surely know [the truth of] its information after a time.}
What that means?, it means clearly that such information are not known to the people at the time of its presentation, and people will not understand them then, but it will come the time ,[ AFTER TIME], when people will come to know and understand such information.
86:1-8
By the sky and the night comer . And what can make you know what is the night comer ?.
IT IS THE PIERCING STAR. THERE IS NO SOUL BUT THAT IT HAS OVER IT A PROTECTOR.
So let man observe from what he was created. He was created from a fluid, ejected, emerging from between the back-bone and the ribs.
INDEED, HE [i.e., Allah] , TO RETURN HIM IS ABLE.
Analyzing what came in the above verses, first thing, we notice that they came from God [HE], and they started with a sort of a ‘swear’ which is also a promise too, and the swear came about two things , by the sky which everyone knows about, and by unknown object in the sky which the Quran gave it a name “AL-TAREQ”, which the people do not know , and God asked, “ as what you know about this object, “AL-TAREQ”, and HE follow it by giving a description for it as it is a “ PIERCING STAR”, and for HIM knowing the power of this star, [which we came to know AFTER TIME, that not even light can escape from it], in which he gave it as an example to HIS power, and that every soul is protected, and every soul will be pulled back by HIS power, and everything will return to HIM.
Until the twenty century’s discovery of the galaxies, and for a very long time, people believed that every lighting object in the sky is a star, and they had no idea about their sizes, but today scientists came to find out that there are objects in the universe the size of thousands or of millions of our sun which have enormous gravitational power that even light cannot escape from it, and they call the object which the cannot see [while it is the size of millions of our sun] a “BLACK HOLE” .
BLACK HOLE vs PIERCING STAR.
Which is a more accurate term to describe such an object ?.
As for the term “black hole”, that is completely wrong, for one thing, because the huge star is already in the black space, and it is bright and shining within itself. Black hole in a black space cannot be right.
The “piercing star” term is more accurate, since it is a star, a very big and powerful star, which pulls everything inward by its gravitational power as if it is piercing into the space.
24:40
OR [they are] LIKE DARKNESSES WITHIN AN UNFATHOMABLE SEA WHICH IS COVERED BY WAVES, UPON WHICH ARE WAVES, OVER WHICH ARE CLOUDS - darknesses, some of them upon others. When one puts out his hand [therein] he can hardly see it. And he to whom Allah has not granted light - for him there is no light.
An example is been given from far away in space, but this example is been given from the deep seas !. One is talking about God’s power, another is talking about those people who live in the dark, because they do not wont to accept the truth.
As God used an unseen star, he used here unseen phenomenon in the deep sea, and that is the waves in the deep below the surface waves.
The majority of the people on the earth today they came to hear or to know about the black hole, the information about it is all over.
On the other side, the people who came to know about the inner sea waves are very few, and the reason is this scientific discovery came at the same time with the man first flight to the moon [July 1969], and all eyes are looking up in the sky, and this discovery lost it is appeals.
The discovery of the inner sea waves came from the Captain’s Log of the deep-sea “Ben Franklin research submarine, in which he kept his daily records and drawings that shows the depth of the sub and the condition of the sea above and bellow, and on the 23 July 1969, he wrote the followings:
“Today we were drifting at 200 meters, about 100 miles east of Charleston, South Carolina. For a short period, internal waves were noted at 1000 hours. The boat sometimes changes depth of40 meters in wave periods of 15 minutes.”
“At approximately 200 meters today [24July]. We were having fits again due to internal waves.”
55:19/20 HE released the two seas, meeting [sise by side] ; Between them is a barrier [so] neither of them transgresses. So which of the favors of your Lord would you deny?.
A photo came by “STUMBLE” shows this phenomena in which anyone can see the line of separation between the two seas, and that is what it say below the photo:
“In the resort town of SKAGEN - Denmark you can watch an amazing natural phenomenon. This city is the northernmost point of Denmark, where the Baltic and North Seas meet. The two opposing tides in this place can not merge because they have different densities.”
GOD PUTTING MAN UNTO A TEST:
22:73
O people, an example is presented, so listen to it. Indeed, those you invoke besides Allah will never create as much as a fly, even if they gathered together for it [i.e.,that purpose]. And if the fly should steal from them a tiny thing, they could not recover it from him. Week are the pursuer and the pursued.
GOD SHOWING HIS ULTIMATE KNOWLEDGE AND POWER:
18:109
Say, “If the sea were ink for [writing] the words of my Lord, the sea would be exhausted before the words of my Lord were exhausted, even if We brought the like of it as a supplement.”
2:117
Originator of the heavens and the earth. When HE decrees a matter, He only says to it , “BE,” and it is.
40:68
HE it is who gives life and causes death; and when HE decrees a matter, HE but says to it , “BE,” and it is.
Name:vvk •
Date: 07/09/13 23:34
A: Where in the Quran mentioned these below ???? what verses in Quran please? Thank you for proving.
* DAY, in the Quran means a period of time , not 24 hours day [evening & morning], since it was mentioned as example that a ‘day’ can be the length of a thousand years or fifty thousand years.
Name:vvk •
Date: 07/10/13 0:13
A: Some Muslims say the Qur’an contains scientific truth about the orbits of the sun, moon, (and sometimes planets). I was interested in investigating this, and we will take a few twists and turns before arriving at a conclusion. But the bottom line is: unless a Muslim viewed these verses as the language of appearance, these verses would disprove, not prove the scientific accuracy of the Qur’an.
Sura 36:37-40 says, "And a sign for them is the night: We withdraw there from the day, and behold they are plunged in darkness; 38 and the sun runs its course for a period determined for it; that is the decree of (him), the exalted in might, the all-knowing. 39 And the moon-we have measured for it mansions (to traverse) till it returns like the old (and withered) Lower part of a date stalk. (40) It is not permitted to the sun to catch up the moon, nor can the night outstrip the day: Each (just) swims along in (its own) orbit (according to law)." (Yusuf Ali’s translation, original edition). [Words in parenthesis are in parenthesis in the translation.]
Some Muslims point out "the sun runs its course for a period determined for it" and the word "orbit" at the end. However, we cannot make too much of the sun’s "orbit" because Yusuf Ali’s translation has a footnote (17) on that word saying "circuit, course". Furthermore, the revised edition of Yusuf Ali says "resting place" instead of "period".
How Freely Do Some Muslims Translate the Qur’an?
The Sufi site http://www.sufi.co.za/modern_science_and_islam.htm goes even farther, saying
"All these the earth and heavenly bodies (all of them are planets) and they are all the time in motion in their orbits (or on their axis) they are spheres floating" (Ansari)
It adds the words "(all of them are planets)" and "(or on their axis)" in parenthesis, because this is not in the Arabic at all. So let’s ignore this one as being too loose a translation, and ask "what does Sura 36:37-40 really teach?" There are three possibilities:
Orbits of sun and moon: The Qur’an taught that the sun and moon moved in continuous orbits/path around the earth of a particular, ordained period
Swim to its resting place: The sun swims across the sky during the day, and goes to its resting place at night, returning to its place the previous dawn. Likewise the moon swims in its path.
Language of appearance: Same as the previous, but this is intended as a description of how things appear, not how they actually are.
Let’s Go Back to the Arabic
Course/Orbit: Yusuf Ali discusses the Arabic word in question in footnote 3983 on p.1326. He says, "Mustaqarr may mean: (1) a limit of time, a period determined, as in vi. 67, or (2) a place of rest or quiescence; or (3) a dwelling place, as in ii. 36. I think the first meaning is best applicable here; but some commentators take the second meaning. In that case the simile would be that of the sun running a race while he is visible to us, and taking a rest during the night to prepare himself to renew his race the following day. His stay with the antipodes appears to us as his period of rest."
Move/swim/rotate: yasbahuna can mean hastening on, though its most direct meaning is swimming.
Swim/rotate: The famous Muslim commentator Ibn Taymiyah (died 1328 A.D.) wrote, "celestial bodies are round (istidaaratul-aflaak) - as it is the statement of astronomers and mathematicians (ahlul-hay’ah wal-hisab)..... The [word] falak [in the Arabic language] means that which is round" (Majmu’ul-Fatawa vol. 6, p. 566-567)
It is not a "scientific miracle" that the sun and moon "falak" because
a) The Arabic term for the earth orbiting the sun is not falak but mahrek.
b) The word falak did not originate with the Qur’an; it was a foreign loan word.
One person contributed the following: "The root [Arabic -- falaka] … from the same primitive Semitic root we get [Akkadian -- pilakku]; [Hebrew -- pelek]; [Arabic -- falkatun], all meaning the whirl of a spindle, and by another line of derivation [Arabic -- falakun]; [Ethiopic -- falaka] for the celestial hemisphere. So the philologers as a rule endeavour to derive [Arabic -- falkun] from this root, imagining it is so named from its rounded shape."
Also, the word falak was used by Arabs, before the time of Muhammad, to refer to the voyage of the celestial objects in the "sky dome". The people before, and in Muhammad’s time, believed in the Aristotelian/Ptolemaic model of the universe where the earth was at the center and was surrounded by 7 spherical domes. And celestial bodies were believed to move in these spheres, or spheres themselves were believed to move in a course. The fact that the Qur’an speaks of seven heavens strongly suggest that Muhammad’s "astronomy" fit the Ptolemaic and Aristotelian models, which were believed to be factual at this point in history.
My Conclusion (so far): While the Arabic is vague, these words say nothing ancient people prior to Mohammed did not already say.
However, if we assume that Mohammed and his early followers could understand the Qur’an (a pretty safe assumption), and that the scientific view of the Qur’an is fairly consistent, then we have two ways arriving at a reasonable conclusion. First, what did early Muslims say about this, and second, what does the rest of the Qur’an say.
What Mohammed and Early Muslims Said About the Sun
Where would you go to find the correct meaning of the Qur’an? Zamakhshari? al-Tabari? Baidawi? If you were an early Muslim, you would just go to Mohammed himself! Here what Mohammed explained, according to both Bukhari and al-Tabari.
"Narrated Abu Dhar : The Prophet asked me at sunset, ‘Do you know where the sun goes (at the
time of sunset)?’ I replied, ‘Allah and His Apostle know better.’ He said, ‘It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates itself underneath the Throne, and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and them ( a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted,…’" Bukhari vol.4 book 54 ch.4 no.441 p.283. Sahih Muslim vol.1 book 1 ch.73 no.297-300 p.95-96 also has a lot of detail on this conversation with Mohammed and Abu Dharr.
Another translation of the same passage of al-Bukhari says:
"Abzur Ghifari (ra) narrated: one day Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) asked me, ‘Abzar do you know after setting where does Sun go?’ I replied, ‘I do not know, only Allah’\’s apostle can say better.’ Then Prophet (SA) replied, ‘After setting, the sun remains prostrated under Allah’s Aro’sh (Allah’s throne) and waits for Allah’s command for rising again in the East. Day will come when sun will not get any more permission from Allah to rise again and Qeyamot (dooms day) will fall upon earth’".
al-Tabari vol.1 p.231 says, "I asked the Messenger of God [Mohammed] ‘Where does it [the sun] set?’ He replied: ‘It sets in the heaven and is then raised from heaven to heaven until it is raised to the highest, seventh heaven. Eventually, when it is underneath the Throne, it falls down and prostrates itself, and the angels who are in charge of it prostrate themselves together with it. The sun then says, My Lord, whence do you command me to rise, from where I set or from where I rise?’ He continued. This is (meant by) God’s word: ‘And the sun: It runs to a place where it is to reside (at night)’ where it is held underneath the Throne – ‘That is decreed by One Mighty and Knowing’ by ‘this’ is meant the procedure of the mighty’ Lord in His royal authority, the Lord Who is ‘knowing’ about His creation. He continued. Gabriel brings to the sun a garment of luminosity from the light of the Throne, according to the measure of the hours of the day. It is longer in the summer and shorter in the winter, and of intermediate length in the autumn and spring. [spring, fall, and winter fashions!] He continued. The sun puts on that garment, as one of you here puts on his garment. Then, it is set free to roam in the air of heaven until it rises whence it does. … The same course is followed by the moon in its rising … But Gabriel brings it a garment from the light of the Footstool. This is (meant by) God word ‘He made the sun a luminosity and the moon a light.’"
The sun and moon are signs of Allah. Abu Dawud vol.1 book 2 no.1173 p.304;
Dhu al-Qarnaiyn [Zul Qarnain] "witnessed the setting of the sun in its resting place into a pool of black and foetid slime." al-Tabari vol.5 p.173-174 (See Sura 18:82-97)
al-Tabari vol.1 p.234 also mentions that the sun sets in a muddy spring. The word "muddy" is hami’ah, meaning mean black clay, but hamiyah is a similar word that can mean hot. (See footnote 442 p.234)
"He [Mohammed] continued. When the sun rises, it rises upon its chariot from one of those springs accompanied by 360 angels…. When God wishes to test the sun and the moon, showing His servants a sign and thereby asking them to stop disobeying Him and to start to obey, the sun tumbles from the chariot and falls into the deep of that ocean, which is the sphere. When God wants to increase the significance of the sign and frighten His servants severely, all of the sun falls, and nothing of it remains upon the chariot. That is a total eclipse of the sun, when the day darkens and the stars come out." al-Tabari vol.1 p.236
What Mohammed and Early Muslims Tell Us About the Heavens
The Prophet [Mohammed] replied: ‘Ali, they are five stars: Jupiter (al-birjis), Saturn (zuhal), Mercury (utarid), Mars (Bahram), and Venus (al-zuhrah). These five stars rise and run like the sun and the moon and race with them together. All the other stars are suspended from heaven as lamps are from mosques,…" al-Tabari vol.1 p.235-236
"God created an ocean three fasrakhs (18 kilometers) removed from heaven. Waves contained, it stands in the air by the command of God. No drop of it is spilled. All the oceans are motionless, but that ocean flows at the rate of the speed of an arrow. It is set free to move in the air evenly, as if it were a rope stretched out in the area between east and west. The sun, the moon, and the retrograde stars [5 planets] run in its deep swell. This is (meant by) God’s word: ‘Each swims in a sphere.’ ‘The sphere’ is the circulation of the chariot in the deep swell of that ocean." al-Tabari vol.1 p.235
Conclusion from early Muslims: The sun literally goes to a resting place at night, and the sun and moon literally "swim" in an ocean of water in the sky.
What the Rest of the Qur’an Says
Note that verse numbers are different in various translations of the Qur’an. These verse numbers and quotes are from Yusuf ‘Ali (revised edition). I corrected the capitalization.
Sura 20:53 "He who has made for you the earth like a carpet spread out"
Sura 50:7 "And the earth – We have spread it out4946, and set thereon mountains…"
Yusuf ‘Ali’s footnote 4946 says, "Cf. xiii. 3; and xv. 19 and n.1955. The earth is round, and yet it appears stretched out as a vast expanse, like a carpet kept steady with the weight of the mountains." So regardless of whether you believe this teaches the flat earth or not, Yusuf ‘Ali says this verse at least says the earth appears as a flat carpet.
Sura 67:15 "It is He who as made the earth manageable5571…" Other translations have "level". Yusuf Ali’s footnote 5571 says, "Zalul is used in ii 71 for an animal trained and tractable: here it is used to qualify the earth, and I have translated ‘manageable’…."
Sura 71:15 "‘See ye not how Allah has created the seven heavens one above another ‘And made the moon a light in their midst, and made the sun as a glorious lamp?" Even granted that this is language of appearance, there is not hint of teaching of modern astronomy.
Sura 71:19 "‘And Allah has made the earth for you as a carpet (spread out),5718…" Yusuf ‘Ali’s footnote 5718 says, "cf. xx 53.
Sura 78:6-7 "Have We [Allah] not made the earth as a wide Expanse5890, and the mountains as pegs?" Yusuf ‘Ali’s footnote 5890 says, See n. 2038 to xvi. 15. Cf. also xiii. 3 and xv. 19. The spacious expanse of the earth may be compared to a carpet, to which the mountains act as pegs…."
Zul-Karnain in Sura 18 and the Science of Astronomy
Sura 18:85-86 "One (such) way he [Zul-qarnain] followed, until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: near it he found a people: We [Allah] said: ‘O Zul-qarnain! (Thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness." "Murky" has also been translated as "muddy" and "black". "spring of … water" has also been translated as "spring". M.H. Skahir translates this as "black sea".
Sura 18:89-90 "Then followed he [Zul-qarnain] (another) way, until when he came to the rising of the sun, he found it rising on a people for whom we had provided no covering protection against the sun."
Muslim commentators differ on exactly who Zul-qarnain (man of two horns) is. Some think Alexander the Great, some think Cyrus of Persia, and some a Yemeni king. It does not matter though. Regardless, Zul-qarnain was able to travel to where the sun actually rose. This supports a flat earth cosmology in the Qur’an. More significantly, he traveled to where the sun set, and found that it set in a muddy/murky spring.
If you ask astronomers if the sun sets in a muddy spring, they will tell you "no".
Conclusion: The Qur’an teaches the following:
The earth is flat, spread out like a carpet and pegged flat by mountains
The sun has a defined path through the day, then sets in a muddy/murky spring and goes to Allah’s throne.
The sun then rises at a specific spot
Except for five "retrograde stars" (planets), the stars are hung like lamps.
Mohammed taught early Muslims this as a literal truth, not just a metaphor or simile.
The Purpose of Stars and Meteors
"The lowest heaven has lamps [stars], and ‘We have made such (Lamps) (as) missiles to drive away the Evil ones, and have prepared for them the Penalty of the Blazing Fire.’" Sura 67:5
"The creation of these stars is for three purposes, i.e. as decoration of the sky, as missiles to hit the devils, and as signs to guide travellers. So, if anybody tries to find a different interpretation, he is mistaken and just wastes his efforts..." Bukhari vol.4 book 54 ch.3 before no.421 p.282.
Shooting stars are sometimes hurled at devils who try to listen in on heavenly secrets. Sahih Muslim vol.1 book 4 no.902 and footnote 674 p.243.
Shooting stars are to hit [bad] angels before they spread what they heard. Sometimes the bad angels tell soothsayers before they are hit though. Ibn-i-Majah vol.1 book 1 no.194 p.110.
Meteors are to attack jinn (genies) Sahih Muslim vol.4 book 24 no.5538 p.1210
Stars guard against Satan. al-Tabari vol.1 p.223
Mohammed Splitting the Moon in Two
"The demand of the pagans to the Prophet to show them a miracle. The Prophet showed them the splitting of the moon. Narrated ‘Abdullah bin Massud: During the lifetime of the Prophet the moon was split into two parts and on that the Prophet said, ‘Bear witness (to this).’" Bukhari vol.4 book 56 ch.26 and vol.4 book 56 no.830 p.533.
"Narrated Anas that the Meccan people requested Allah’s Apostle to show them a miracle, and so he showed them the splitting of the moon." Bukhari vol.4 book 56 no.831 p.533.
"Narrated Ibn ‘Abbas: The moon was split into two parts during the lifetime of the Prophet." Bukhari vol.4 book 56 no.832 p.534.
Splitting the moon. Bukhari vol.6 book 60 no.290 and footnote 1 p.273; vol.6 book 60 no.387-391 p.365-366; vol.6 book 60 no.345,349,368-370 p.331,336
Splitting the moon Sahih Muslim vol.4 book 37 no.6721,6724-6730 p.1467-1468
Sura 54:1 says, "The Hour (of Judgment) is nigh, and the moon was cleft asunder. (Yusuf ‘Ali revised edition).
Note that cleft asunder means the mean was split in half, and the verb here is past tense. We have no records of any other people in the world, including close-by Egypt, Syria, or Persia that saw the moon split in two. The Qur’an and hadiths do not say how it got back together either.
Yusuf ‘Ali in footnote 5128 says, "Three explanations are given in the Mufradat, and perhaps all three apply here: (1) that the moon once appeared cleft asunder in the valley of Makkah within sight of the Prophet, his Companions, and some Unbelievers; (2) that the prophetic past tense indicates the future, the cleaving asunder of the moon being a Sign of the Judgment approaching; and (3) that the phrase is metaphorical, meaning that the matter has become clear as the moon. That the first was noticed by contemporaries, including Unbelievers, is clear from verse 2. The second is an incident of the disruption of the solar system at the New Creation: Cf. lxxv. 8-9."
Nobody else in the world at this time reported the moon split in two. As a side note, the Enclopaedia Britannica vol.13 1972 p.458B has a picture of the Chomsungdae astronomical observatory, near Kyongju Korea, built in the 7th century Silla period.
Counter-examples in the Qur’an?
Ignoring the previous verses, let’s discuss other verses in the Qur’an some Muslims believe support modern astronomical theories. In fairness to them, here are the verses they bring up, along with responses.
Sura 7:54 "…He draweth the night as a veil o’er the day, each seeking the other in rapid succession:..."
Response, day and night following each other is true, but says nothing about science or astronomy that primitive people did not know.
Sura 13:2a and Sura 31:10 both say that Allah raised the heavens without any pillars that you can see".
Response: While not all ancient peoples believed the heavens were held by pillars, this merely says Allah did not have any visible pillars that could be seen.
Sura 13:2b "…He has subjected the sun and the moon! Each one runs (its course) for a term appointed"
Response: That both the sun and moon have regularity was observable by even primitive people.
Sura 21:30 "Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were jointed together (as one Unit of Creation), before we [Allah] clove them asunder?" Muslims view this as the Qur’an anticipating the big bang theory.
Response: The ancient Egyptians, Aryan Hindus, and others believed the heavens and earth were together before being separated. To merely say the heavens and earth were joined together (implying halves) is more like those ancient mythologies than the big bang theory.
Sura 21:33 "All (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its2695 rounded course. Yusuf Ali’s footnote 2695 is instructive here. It says, "I have indicated, unlike most translators, the metaphor of swimming implied in the original words:…"
Malik’s translation says, "all (celestial bodies) move swiftly in an orbit of their own."
Response: The Arabic word was understood as "swim" as Yusuf Ali has correctly translated, as shown by al-Tabari vol.1 p.235; al-Tabari vol.1 p.236. Also the verses speak of the sun and moon, not other celestial bodies, so it is not quite correct to put (celestial bodies) in the translation in parenthesis. The Qur’an does not say anything moves in a path/orbit in the sky except the sun, moon and retrograde stars (planets).
Sura 21:104 "The day that We roll up the heavens like a scroll".
Response: It is unclear to me how this supposed to anticipate modern astronomy, but Mohammed’s first wife took him to hear the gospels from a Christian, and the Bible in Revelation 6:14 and in the Old Testament in Isaiah 34:4. However, Christians do not generally try to fit modern astronomy into Revelation 6:14.
Sura 22:65 "…He withholds the sky2847 from falling on the earth except by His leave…" Yusuf ‘Ali’s footnote 2847 says that this word samaa can mean (1) something high, (2) a root, a ceiling, (3) the sky, the canopy of heaven. (4) cloud or rain. He says he understand the last meaning here, though most authorities seem to render it by some such words as "sky".
Response: Thus many authorities the word would be "sky" which is most consistent with a flat earth view. So while we cannot say this verse definitely proves the flat earth view in the Qur’an, due to the vagueness of the Arabic, this verse certainly cannot be used to prove a modern scientific view in the Qur’an.
Sura 25:61-62 "Blessed is He who made constellations in the skies, and placed therein a lamp and a moon giving light. And it is he who made the night and the day to follow each other:…"
Response: Calling the sun a lamp does nothing to prove the Qur’an had modern scientific views. The day and night following each other is true, but it is something even primitive people all knew.
Sura 27:88 "…these mountains which you see and think are firmly fixed, will pass away like clouds…" (Malik) One Muslim apologist apparently believes this alludes to the earth’s rotation.
Response: The verse before mentions the last trumpet, so the context is the end times, not today.
Sura 29:44 says that the creation of the heavens and the earth is a sign for those who believe.
Response: The creation of heaven and earth shows God’s majesty according to Psalm 8:1,3,5; Psalm 19:1-6. Mohammed knew of the Psalms (zubur) of David, so there is no news here.
Sura 31:29, Sura 35:13, Sura 36:37, and Sura 39:5 all say that Allah merges night into day and day into night. It also says the sun and moon each run their appointed course. Sura 55:5 also says the sun and moon run their appointed courses.
Response: There is nothing to suggest this is not the path of the sun and moon in the sky. These things were known and observed by ancient, primitive people too. Saying a truth that even pagans already believed of course does not prove a book wrong. However, repeating common knowledge in no way proves the Qur’an predicted modern scientific knowledge.
Sura 51:47,48 "We have build the firmament with might: and We indeed have vast power. And we have spread out the (spacious) earth: how excellently We do spread out!" (Yusuf ‘Ali). Other translations say "like a carpet".
Response: Spreading out the earth, which some see as teaching a flat earth, does nothing to prove the Qur’an taught modern scientific theories. As a non-Muslim, I am willing to admit that this might not be teaching the falsehood that the earth is flat, but rather be a poetic expression. Muslims have used this to say the Qur’an taught the big bang expansion of the universe. The fact that God spread out the heavens does not specifically mean the big bang theory, and God stretching out the heavens is in the Bible in Isaiah 42:5. However, Christians do not try to use a vague reference like this to prove the anticipated the big bang theory.
Sura 55:33 mentions zones of the earth that men and Jinns [genies] cannot pass beyond without authority.
Response: Zones of the earth does not teach modern geography, though it sounds a bit like sea monsters or other barriers keep people from traveling to other parts of the earth. Likewise zones of heaven does not mean much, except that both Mohammed and Jewish tradition spoke of seven heavens.
Sura 71:15-16 "See ye not how Allah has create the seven heavens one above another, And made the moon a light in the midst, and made the sun as a (Glorious) lamp?" It is claimed by some Muslims that the seven layers of the earth’s atmosphere (troposphere, stratosphere, etc.) are the seven heavens.
Response: Besides seven heavens being in common with Jewish tradition, calling the moon a light and the sun a lamp does not show modern scientific views, though this is not falsehood if it is understood as poetic language. Also, if the seven heavens were the seven layers of the earth’s atmosphere, it would be wrong to say the sun, moon, and stars are in the heavens.
As a side note, though the Bible never mentions seven heavens, various apocryphal traditions mention seven heavens: 2 Enoch 20:1; 20:1 p.134-135; Martyrdom and Ascension of Isaiah 7:8; 9:1,6; 10:17; The Testament of the Twelve Patriarchs ch.3.3 p.13. 3 Baruch 11:1 p.675 mentions 5 heavens, though it does not say that is all there are. So even if it were a scientific miracle that Mohammed mentioning seven heavens corresponded to the earth's atmospheric layers, it would be even a greater miracle that these earlier works mentioned seven heavens too.
Sura 86:1-3 "By the heaven and by the visitant by night, and what will explain to you what the visitant by night is? It is the star of piercing brightness. (Just as Allah Almighty is taking care of each star in the galaxies, similarly) over each soul there is an appointed guardian angel." (Malik)
Some Muslims claim this teaches that the sun is a star.
Response: Note two things: a) the sun is not mentioned here, and b) everything in parenthesis was added in the English translation; it is not in the original Arabic!
Yusuf ‘Ali (revised edition) gives a much more accurate translation here. "By the Sky6067 and the Night-Visitant6068 (therein); And what will explain to thee What the Night-Visitant is? – (It is) the Star of piercing brightness; - there is no soul but has a protector over it.6069"
Yusuf ‘Ali’s footnote 606 says, "…The ‘Star of piercing brightness’ is understood by some to be the Morning Star, by others to be the planet Saturn, by others again to be Sirius, or the Pleids [Pleiades] or shooting stars. I think it is best to take the ‘Star’ in the collective or generic sense, for stars shine on every night of the year, and their piercing brightness is most noticeable on the darkest night."
Some Interpretations Are Really Out of This World!
Here are some other Muslim views recorded in http://debate.org.uk/topics/history/interprt.htm. This site has other good info too.
"Take for instance Muhammad Hanafi al-Banna who discovered allusions to aeroplanes (Sura 17:1), artificial satellites (Sura 41:53), interplanetary travel (Sura 55:33), and the hydrogen bomb (Sura 74:33-38) (Jansen 1980:48).
Thus, it was not surprising when men like Muhammad Kamil Daww wrote that the miracle of the "scientific" content of the Qur’an was even greater than the miracle of its matchless eloquence. This gave veracity to Muhammad, and hence a correctness to all the statements in the Qur’an.
Today the person best known for popularizing scientific exegesis is the French doctor Maurice Bucaille. In his book, The Bible, The Qur’an and Science, he seeks to expose the unscientific nature of the Bible while simultaneously elevating the status of the Qur’an by using the same criteria."
But Some Muslims Were More Down to Earth
It must be mentioned that many Muslims do not hold to the previous interpretations. Some see these verses are simply remarking on easily observed things in the sky.
Muhammad said: "Refrain from speaking about me except of what you know.
Whoever speaks a lie about me deliberately, may him prepare his place in the hellfire. And whoever interprets Qur’an by his own opinion may him prepare his place in the Hellfire." Tirmiz EE, Tefsir 1, (2951) (contributed)
"Nay, We hurl the Truth against Falsehood, and it knocks out its brain, and behold, Falsehood doth perish! Ah! Woe be to you for the (false) things ye ascribe (to Us)." Sura 21:19
If anyone deliberately attributes a lie to Mohammed, their abode is Hell. Abu Dawud vol.3 ch.1372 book 19 no.3643 p.1036. Also Bukhari vol.2 book 23 no.378 p.212-218
"...And whoever intentionally ascribes something to me [Mohammed] falsely, he will surely take his place in the (Hell) Fire." Bukhari vol.8 book 73 no.217 p.139-140.
A false witness is tantamount to ascribing partners to Allah. Ibn-i-Majah vol.3 book 13 no.2372 p.414
Muslims Views and Responses
1. The Qur’an anticipates modern science: The sun and moon are in orbit and rotate along their axis (Sura 21:33; 36:27-40). The Qur’an even teaches the big bang theory (Sura 21:30; Sura 51:47,48). The Arabic word falak means "orbit". Astronomers tell us that the sun orbits the center of the galaxy every 250 million years or so. The Arabic word yasbahuna (from sabaha) means rotating on its axis.
1 Response: Actually this is wishful thinking for two reasons.
1) The words are vague: falak is Arabic means course, progress as well as orbit, and yasbahuna can mean hastening on, though its most direct meaning is swimming.
2) Mohammed told us clearly what is means, and it means the sun and moon traveled over earth, swam/rode in a chariot across the earth’s sky.
Again, here are two sources of what Mohammed said.
"God created an ocean three fasrakhs (18 kilometers) removed from heaven. Waves contained, it stands in the air by the command of God. No drop of it is spilled. All the oceans are motionless, but that ocean flows at the rate of the speed of an arrow. It is set free to move in the air evenly, as if it were a rope stretched out in the area between east and west. The sun, the moon, and the retrograde stars [5 planets] run in its deep swell. This is (meant by) God’s word: ‘Each swims in a sphere.’ ‘The sphere’ is the circulation of the chariot in the deep swell of that ocean." al-Tabari vol.1 p.235
Narrated Abu Dhar : The Prophet asked me at sunset, ‘Do you know where the sun goes (at the
time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates itself underneath the Throne, and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and them ( a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted,…" Bukhari vol.4 book 54 ch.4 no.441 p.283
2. The Qur’an mentions the sun’s orbit around the center of our galaxy.
2 Response: The sun does not have an independent orbit in our galaxy. If the Qur’an was attempting to teach modern science, it should have said the sun, moon, earth, and retrograde stars (planets) all orbit the galaxy together.
Again, we also know exactly what Mohammed meant, because he told us, as Bukhari vol.4 book 54 ch.4 no.441 p.283 and al-Tabari vol.1 p.235 record.
3. The sun’s resting place means it is shining on the other side of the earth.
Again, we also know exactly what Mohammed meant, because he told us, as Bukhari vol.4 book 54 ch.4 no.441 p.283 and al-Tabari vol.1 p.235 record.
4. The sun’s resting place means the ultimate destruction of the sun.
4 Response: A typical person reading this, in any language, would think it refers to a periodic cycle, not ultimate destruction.
5. Language of appearance: The sun, moon, and planets mark a path in the sky. These verses were meant neither to support nor contradict modern science, but were poetic expressions merely saying Allah was behind what people naturally observed.
5 Response: This would sound reasonable, except for what Bukhari and al-Tabari wrote that Mohammed said. If Bukhari and al-Tabari were wrong about this, then what criteria is there for saying they were right about anything.
Conclusion
Some (but not all) Muslims try to use these verses to prove the scientific accuracy of the Qur’an. Unless you see an error in this discussion, it is not intellectually honest to try to claim this proves the scientific accuracy of the Qur’an. In fact, some of these verses contradict what we know by modern science, unless you understand them to be poetic and the language of appearance. However, Bukhari and al-Tabari show these were understood quite literally. The sun and moon swim in the sky over the earth.
However, the most important thing in the world is not what you know, but Who you know. It is not which theories of men you believe, but whether you follow what the True God has revealed. Every single viewpoint on astronomy up to the nineteenth century has some error in it. Who’s to say that in the future people will not say the same about our scientific views? The only way we can know what is true is by what God has revealed to us. We have trust that God would reveal what we need to know, and that He would preserve the meaning of His revelation.
Name:sam •
Date: 07/21/13 13:32
A: V V K ,
Your question:
Where in the Quran mentioned...DAY, means a period of time:
22:47 .... And indeed, A DAY WITH YOUR LORD IS LIKE A THOUSAND YEARS OF THOSE WHICH YOU COUNT.
70:4 The angels and the Spirit will ascend to HIM during A DAY THE EXTENT OF WHICH IS FIFTY THOUSAND YEARS.
Name:sam •
Date: 07/21/13 15:55
A: V V K ,
I am going to answer your questions from your long post one by one, because that is easier for me to do, and easier for you to anderstand..
explaining Sura 36:37-40
These Suras give a picture to how the Day/Night, the sun and the moon go on in their never ending journey.
Again, I will bring the verse which you might already forget.
38:88 AND YOU WILL SURELY KNOW THE TRUTH OF ITS INFORMATION AFTER TIME.
37 - Describe,The picture which we get of the alteranation of day & night while standing on the roof top will not show us the real picture, and only a picture taken from the space above the earth will show in full details how the night and the day one take over the other.
38 - Describe, the movement of the sun in it is continuing journey , which comes in a specific periods of time to complete one revolution around the axis/core of the galaxy.
After time. We know today that the sun moving in a very high speed circling around our galaxy and {The sun is one of more than 100 billion stars in the Milky Way. It orbits some 25,000 light years from the galactic core, completing a revolution once every 250 million years -NASA}
Today's scientists believe that the sun is in the 19th revolution, and from that we can come to the age of our solar system:
19r X 250 000 000yr = 4.75 billion years
40 - The sun and the moon each runs/swims in its own orbit.
V V K , you tell if that not true ?. and tell me if all stars an planets are moving/running/swiming each in its orbit ?.
21: 33 And it is HE who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; ALL HEAVENLY BODIES, IN AN ORBIT ARE SWIMMING.
The Quran is not a scientific book, but a book of signs which brought within a lot of examples and information to show the people the many wonders of their world in which they live in, and to show them that what they knew is not but a little, and He asked them even to search for the truth :
29:20 O MUHAMMAD, SAY TO THEM, "GO TRAVEL THROUGH THE EARTH AND OBSERVE HOW THE CREATION BEGAN."
The Quran gave a lot of information about many things, about the human creation, about the earth and about the universe, and after all that HE asked the people to go by themselves to search for the truth of everything even about the first creation.
Name:sam •
Date: 07/21/13 17:18
A: V V K ,
Your question:
Some Muslims point out "the sun runs its course for a period determined for it" and the word "orbit" at the end. However, we cannot make too much of the sun’s "orbit" because Yusuf Ali’s translation has a footnote (17) on that word saying "circuit, course". Furthermore, the revised edition of Yusuf Ali says "resting place" instead of "period".
How Freely Do Some Muslims Translate the Qur’an?
The Quran came in ARABIC, And I do understand every word in it, since this is my language, but I cannot translate it to English to give the same meaning as it came in the Arabic language, while at the same time I can tell if the translation of a word is right or wrong.
In my reading to some of the translations I see that the Yusuf Ali , Bukhari, Al-Tabari and the others, everyone of them use his knowledge about the words diffently trying make their own expression, of something, in which they had no knowledge about at their time.
V V K, you mentioned that Ibn Taymiyah (died 1328 AD), can you tell about the times of the others which you mentioned ?.
Does those people at their time understand what came from information in the Quran, and while that they been told in advance that the truth of the information in the Quran will be known AFTER TIME.
And when those people came to translate the Quran to another language did they acquire the full knowledge of the other language, by living and studying the language and getting a degree in the English literature ?.
Does those people know anything about the human body, or the scince of the earth and the space, our galaxy and others and that every object in the universe is going in orbit ?.
If a word translated wrong, is that means that the book is wrong ?.
V V K , You try to bring the Hadith, the translators as they are as equal to the Quran, and that is wrong, every Buddhist, Jew and Christian try the same method to put down from the values of the Quran, and that is wrong too.
The Quran for the Muslims is the only holy book as the word of God.
The words of Muhammad are not the words of God but only the words of Muhammad, some of what came in the Hadith are accepted others are doubtful, and many rejected.
Yusuf Ali and the others are no different from you. They did mis-transtate a word because they do not understand it correctly in the othe language, and you bring them as an example to show that the Quran is wrong.
Name:sam •
Date: 07/21/13 18:27
A: V V K ,
Your question:
However, if we assume that Mohammed and his early followers could understand the Qur’an .
First. The Quran is not a book of science, but a book which holds within beside the laws and ancient story etc., a signs and examples given to prove it is authenticity.
Second. While the laws and the stories will always be the same and will not change by passing of time [In the time of Muhammad and at all time after Him] , the signs and examples which are mentioned in the Quran are as clearly explained in the Quran is not to be known by Muhammad or His people at His time , but at a later on time in the future:
38:88 AND YOU WILL SURELY KNOW THE TRUTH OF ITS INFORMATION AFTER TIME.
Let me bring just few examples of the information that the Quran brought 1400 years ago.
- The heaven and earth were a joined entity... then separated [21:30]
- The heaven [the universe] is expanded [51:47]
- The creation of the heaven and of the earth , like of them [65:12]
- The sun run on course towards its destination [36:38]
{The destination is the point of start in its -250 million years journey to complete.}
- Made the sky a protective ceiling [21:32]
Such knowledge was not known to Muhammad or His people, or the people before Him [Buddha, Moses Jesus and every human all of them believe that the earth is flat piece of land and it is the centre of the heaven], and Muhammad and His followers understand that there is many thing in the Quran which they could not understand well at their time will come to be known after time, as the Quran mentioned.
Name:sam •
Date: 07/22/13 0:55
A: V V K ,
You mentioned the following:
Sura 13:2b "…He has subjected the sun and the moon! Each one runs (its course) for a term appointed"
Response: That both the sun and moon have regularity was observable by even primitive people.
The people at the time of Buddha and Moses and Jesus they were not primitive, even though from their writing which came in their books and writings we can see clearly that they had no knowledge about the movement of the earth and the moon and the sun, and they never heard of the name galaxy, and they never knew that all the stars and planets are going in an orbit in our galaxy, and they never heard that there are billions of other galaxies in the universe, and they did know that the earth had a protective ceiling which only discovered few decades ago.
Of course, the first human on this earth had a full functional brain, and the primitive people in some part of this world today still having the same brain, observing the sky but did they come after many thousands of year to a conclusion, and did they come to know what we [me & you] know today, even we are not scientists.
From the billions of people in this world who are observing the sky, only few scientists can come with the true knowledge by using advanced instrument and labs, and they learn from each other, and work together and had the ability to observe what is going around them on land or in the sky.
V V K , I wonder how you came to your conclusion by claiming that the primitive people had all the knowledge which came in the Quran, and you used that example to prove that the Quran did not bring anithing new.
If the primitive people had al the knowledge about the sun and the moon and the planets and the stars and the galaxies , is that mean that the works of the twenties century scientists been taken from the observation of the primitive people !!!.
In your Conclusion you said:
However, the most important thing in the world is not what you know, but Who you know.
That is completely wrong: because if we use the first part to address everyone of those great scientist who developed the science far beyound any imagination that what they knew is not important, and the only important thing is those they knew.
I say to you , that the most important thing in everything in our life is to use the logic in our brain and to be honest, and not to switch the truth for personal reason and not to tell lies, and not to jump around to bring the past knowledge of mankind and put them as the same level with what came in the Quran and today scientific knowledge.
You never been honest in what you wrote in your posts about what came in the Quran, and alway try to bring those people who translated the book and who lived many centuries later.
The Quran is the only holy book, the traslations ane not the Quran but gave the meaning of the word which came in the Quran, and when you are in doubt about something the best way is to get help from well educated Muslim and the bast are those who who came to Islam from the other religions.
