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Name: zulu • Title: Husband or father... • Date posted: 02/27/07 14:05

Q: I can't imagine what it would feel to be a priest who is celebate to come to grips with the idea that Jesus had physical relations and was a family man. If he did so why don't they?

Name: Setep • Date: 02/27/07 15:31

A: The bible says that a man who finds a wife finds favor with God, and that marriage is a holy union, yet priests cant marry? Isn't this just as conflicting as spiritual ascension?

Name: Jesus • Date: 02/27/07 15:42

A: They should this celibacy thing is so outdated.

Name: Abigail • Date: 02/27/07 17:42

A: I don't think the finding that Jesus was married and was a father compromises his religious importance. Doesn't it just show that he was human and like us, had a family who loved him and whom he cared about?

Name: cmpadres • Date: 02/27/07 20:43

A: Celibacy in Christianity is genearally for the purpose that the person's only love is Christ, and allows them to focus all of their mind body and soul on him. Being married introduces responsibilities that will take away from their focus on God. Thus is cannot be outdated. to be outdated, it would mean that it was necessary in the past but not now! So people today have some innately increased multitasking capacity to simultaneously dedicate their ENTIRE mind body and soul to God, while also taking care of worldly matters such as would be part of a marriage?

Name: Abigail • Date: 02/27/07 20:53

A: But Jesus was Jewish and God's most important mitzvah (commandment) was to be fruitful and multiply. So, as a married man with a child, Jesus WAS serving God to the fullest, a fact which encompassed his role as a father and husband.

Name: Heather • Date: 02/27/07 21:50

A: I believe Jesus is quoted in support of celibacy in the Bible but does not enforce it nor claim to be celibate himself.

Name: amyhughes7380 • Date: 02/28/07 19:43

A: While the idea is certainly not improbable there is reasonable justification for celibacy in the church. Namely that no love should come before a disciples love for God. There lives should be free to do his works on Earth. While I don't know how many of you have children it would be difficult for me to leave them behind to go to missions etc. while my mind would be on returning to my family. That is the reason it is included in the ordination.

As far as Jesus being celibate/unmarried etc. We have to go off a balance of what we know and also what we know of the cultures of the time. Marriage was the holiest of sacraments in the Jewish faith, yes. But while Christ was Jewish, and raised as such he found many problems with the setup and hierarchy of that church. Would this not cause a bit of rebllion in him? Would he ascribe to their teachings anymore than he had to given what he "knew" of God? These are all interesting questions that I am not sure we will ever find the answers to on Earth.

With the recent debacle in the Catholic church I can see the resoning for allowing Priests to marry, but if you notice their energies did not go towards eligible women parishoners. So this begs to be answered: Is there a need for marriage in the church or is it more of a sexual devience that needs to be properly screened and dealt with more accordingly than a hus campaign?

Celebicy is "unnatural" for the human species. Our bodies tell us to fulfill animal instincts etc. To give up this natural urge for God, for life is considered a Great Sacrifice and therefore it shows the strength and integrity of many that have chosen the cloth over a typical familial existence. Regarding those who have given into temptations and perverse behavior they do not deserve the monicre of Father.

Name: ollypop • Date: 02/28/07 20:27

A: Jesus was called A Rabbi,

Jewish faith says a Rabbi must be married!

So why wouldn't Jesus?

There must be an answer. Jesus was a hebrew correct?

Name: wygantsh • Date: 03/01/07 1:57

A: The priesthood in many churches allows marriage and so there are many priests who probably would not mind the idea that Jesus may have been married and fathered children. The catholic church seems to be the main obstacle in returning TRUE Christianity to its roots which was a very open and universal church where men and women had equal standing in the clergy and could marry and still perform priestly duties without sacrificing their love for God. Marriage is really much more difficult of an initiation of love than celibacy is since it requires much more of a sacrifice in terms of physical devotion and unselfish giving of time and energy to building harmony and union within a family.

Name: crewchief333 • Date: 03/01/07 2:45

A: According to the "good book" God created a partner for man to share his life with. He created a mate for every person. Do you really think that he would do that if he wanted people to lead celibate lives??

Name: DSand • Date: 03/01/07 3:47

A: One thing to consider is what Jesus actually said about His time on earth - He came to do His Father's will, not His own. So His life was not about making family plans, falling in love, bearing children, etc. Jesus knew that His path led to the cross, and this was the will of His Father (God). Just look at His prayers in the Garden prior to His arrest. And if you read the New Testament, specifically the Pauline Epistles, it talks about how it's okay to be single, and it's okay to be married. Remember, the message of Jesus, which so many people are missing, is that it is not about your externals (i.e., if you are married or single), but it is about your internal - you heart.

And to serve God faithfully we must do what He calls each of us to do - to live our life in accordance to His will, which may mean some of us need to stay single and some of us will be married. Just as Jesus followed His Father's plan, so must we. Marraige is auxillary and a non-issue at best.

Name: malthos • Date: 03/01/07 8:53

A: I think what everyone is leaving out is that the bible was written by man and allot was left out by those in charge at the time so they decided what should go in and what should not because of there beliefs and foiables

also during the time they really pushed for celebicy in the catholic church was the same time that they pushed the women out and were taking allot of lord and ladies 4th and 5th sons into the fold as priests and such and the one thing they did not need were a buch of excuse my languege bastards in a safe haven of a church or "holy area" that might one day decide to take there forfathers place or possibaly the throne so keeping them celebite was a way to control an heir but the possible new offspring as well since the monarcy is limited to a few nations and in only a few does the king/queen truly have the word of law now a days i think a priest that married now would actually be a good thing for the catholic faith as a whole showing that see we like women not alter boys im sorry if i have offended anyone

Name: mikegs • Date: 03/01/07 13:43

A: 1) The best historical witnessees (the eye-witnesses) state that Jesus was never married.
2) This makes sense theologically, because he was uniquely the Son of God, and every marriage points to his relationship with all his people, not his relationship with one particular person.
3) This clearly does not mean that those who follow him should remain unmarried.

Name: Merovingian • Date: 03/01/07 14:38

A: If He was married, there will be a document about this, but there is no....why He would hide if He had chosen to continue his days married on earth?

mikegs , you say it quite complete....

:)))

Name: Pat • Date: 03/01/07 19:55

A: The celibacy of the priesthood was decreed by Pope Hildebrand, Boniface VII, in the year....1079

Jesus imposed no such rule, nor did any of the apostles. On the contrary, St. Peter was a married man, and St. Paul says that bishops were to have wife and children. (Read I Tim. 3:2,5, and 12; Matt. 8:14-15).
V
During the first centuries of the Christian era the clergy were permitted to marry and have families, and for more than a thousand years after the time of Christ, the Roman priesthood, without too much opposition, exercised the privilege.

It is easy to see why the pope and the hierarchy are so insistent on enforcing the law of celibacy against the priests, monks, and nuns. The reasons are both ecclesiastical and economic. In the first place it gives the pope and his prelates a higher degree of control over the priests and nuns, so that, not having wives or husbands or families which must be consulted in making their plans, they are more responsive to the orders of the hierarchy and can be transferred more readily from one parish to another or to different points around the world. And secondly, property owned by the priests, which in some cases is quite considerable, and which if they were married would go to their families, either automatically falls to the church or likely will be left to it by choice in much larger proportion. Thus the pope has secured for himself an army readily available to carry out his commands. That in accomplishing this purpose the priests and nuns are doomed to a life of celibacy, oftentimes to a life of misery in contending against nature, appears to be of little concern to the hierarchy.

Name: Pat • Date: 03/01/07 20:18

A: Abigal wrote:
A: But Jesus was Jewish and God's most important mitzvah (commandment) was to be fruitful and multiply. So, as a married man with a child, Jesus WAS serving God to the fullest, a fact which encompassed his role as a father and husband.

Abigal :

I agree with you Jesus as a human on earth ate bread, drank wine, went to the batroom like all of us and enjoy Mary Madeleine’s company.

She was never was a sinner and depicted as a prostitute till the Catholic Church included this in their biblical dogmas and cannons hundreds of years later.
How can the love of two people married on top of it and who enjoy each other bodies and the plesure including the procreative tools can be sinful in the first place?

Priests were married for over a thousand years in the Catholic Church.
Celibacy was introduced for full control and financial reasons of the Church.
Celibacy to me does not equate to Saint Hood
I am sure he enjoyed sex with Mary Madeleine and if married must of been a good Husband. He loved children and this in a good way.

Name: BlessedChildofGod333 • Date: 03/01/07 23:39

A: You have hit the nail on the head. There are discussions about this with all of the religions.

"It is better to marry than to burn with passion"

Name: Lore • Date: 03/01/07 23:58

A: Mikegs wrote: "The best historical witnessees (the eye-witnesses) state that Jesus was never married."

We have no eye-witness testimony on his marriage or lack thereof. The subject is not mentioned in the gospels. Even if it were, they were not written by the apostles that accompanied him. Paul holds himself up as an example of celibacy, not Yeshua. Wouldn't it have made sense to hold Yeshua up as the primary example if he had been celibate:

Merovingian wrote: "If He was married, there will be a document about this, but there is no....why He would hide if He had chosen to continue his days married on earth?"

What document would that be? We don't even have documented proof he was born, lived or died, let alone that he married.

I'm not sure what you mean by him hiding. Who said he was hiding?

Name: Lore • Date: 03/02/07 18:09

A: Here's a few places you might want to visit or join if you're interested in Mary Magdalene and/or their possible marriage:

The oldest and most respected discussion list concerning Mary Magdalene. Margaret Starbird, Ki Longfellow, Joan Norton, Dr. Jim Gardner and other well-known authors post regularly

http://groups.yahoo.com/gro-up/magdalene-list/

Order- of Mary Magdala discussion list
http://groups.yahoo.com/group-/MaryMagdalaOrder/

Goddess- Christian discussion list
http://groups.yahoo.com/gro-up/goddesschristians/

Th-e- goddess-Christian oriented Esoteric Mystery School
http://www.northernway.org/school.html

Name: CJ • Date: 03/03/07 17:19

A: According to the bible book said Judah was son of James (brother of Jesus). but why stone box had engraved showed Judah, son of Jesus? Do i missing to read in the Bible?? Please me let know.

Name: eblondet • Date: 03/05/07 1:08

A: Setep:

Jeshua was a Jewish Rabbi, he WAS married, the Bible has this fact eliminated because of their agenda.

Most of the Dogma that the "Ecclessia" created had an agenda.

Name: prsmccarty10 • Date: 03/05/07 6:15

A: There is no possibility that Jesus had a son or a wife. The gospel writers had no reason to cover a wife or son. If he did have a wife it would have been an accepted truth in the christian faith. There is no reason to have hidden a wife and the gospel writers knew Jesus and would have mention the fact.
BTW-- The tomb was empty!!! The apostels died horrific deaths to defend the gospel of Christ and the empty tomb is central to the Christian faith. I doubt they would have let themselves be crucified (let alone upside down) beheaded and stoned for a fanciful story. Whats the profit in that. The movie was interesting but had serious, obvious flaws. If you figure in that there was a "son of Jesus" into the statistics that were quoted I think the odds of the tomb being the Holy families tomb are probably inverse of the numbers that were claimed.

Name: Gerri • Date: 03/05/07 6:46

A: Because Jesus was a Jew and Priests are not. Jewish men came of age and married at a young age. It would be rare for a Jewish man NOT to marry. Priest are catholic - a combo of pagan and polytheist ritual and judaism - rolled into one - MANY contradictions.

Name: Terry Allan Hall • Date: 03/05/07 12:51

A: Control issues within the Church, which is also why sex is such a big deal...just my guess, but consider this: Jesus was called "Rabbi" and rabbis were/are expected to have the wisdom that can only come from experiencing life...including Love and Family.

Name: marianotthatofjesus_ • Date: 03/05/07 14:26

A: It's not written anywhere -in a historical book e.g.-that JESUS lived somewhere,sometime in the past. He must have been a very persuasive and intelligent man who knew how to support his ideas among poor people.My question is:does any of you know any other evidence that he really existed?

Name: SueB • Date: 03/05/07 19:59

A: Terry, many people outside the Catholic faith do not understand that the Church's canonical laws are there to protect souls from offending God. It has nothing to do with Church control or money. I assure you.

Another thing non-Catholics do not understand is that a priest's vows of celibacy is a willful act of love for God. The priest consecrates His life (body, soul and spirit) to God. There is no way when you are married with children that you can give God your full attention. Our time and age will not allow that. There are too many distractions.

Name: Pat • Date: 03/06/07 17:43

A: SueB wrote:• Date: 03/05/07 14:59

A: Terry, many people outside the Catholic faith do not understand that the Church's canonical laws are there to protect souls from offending God. It has nothing to do with Church control or money. I assure you.

Pat wrote:

Since Constantine and the switch from Roman Pagan religion the Catholic Church who took over the Roman empire and as the official religion has done exactly that my friend Its all about money power control and rule the earth and have all King Queens and President under the temporal power of the Pope.
Read the history of the Catholic Church.

Sue wrote:

Another thing non-Catholics do not understand is that a priest's vows of celibacy is a willful act of love for God. The priest consecrates His life (body, soul and spirit) to God. There is no way when you are married with children that you can give God your full attention. Our time and age will not allow that. There are too many distractions.

Pat wrote :
You are definitely wrong as an ex Catholic that went to a boarding school run by priests and abuse during the 60’s , at the age of 11 and 12 they were to busily trying to get into our pants.
Not only that but those that did not abuse you sexually abused you physical because they were sexually frustrated.
If they would have been married men or even having the right of a homosexual partner if that was the case they would of not of put their frustrations and needs on us children. And destroy many lives.
Do you know what it is for children to be sodommised by a priest in a chapel while the kid prays to the Jesus on the cross on the alter to come down to save him?
So do not give me that stupid rhetoric.
My only way out after 2 years was a failed attempt of suicide at the age of 12
Priesthood is far from being some spiritual Disney land like you portrait it.

The facts are the following :
The celibacy of the priesthood was decreed by Pope Hildebrand, Boniface VII, in the year....1079

Jesus imposed no such rule, nor did any of the apostles. On the contrary, St. Peter was a married man, and St. Paul says that bishops were to have wife and children. (Read I Tim. 3:2,5, and 12; Matt. 8:14-15).
V
During the first centuries of the Christian era the clergy were permitted to marry and have families, and for more than a thousand years after the time of Christ, the Roman priesthood, without too much opposition, exercised the privilege.

It is easy to see why the pope and the hierarchy are so insistent on enforcing the law of celibacy against the priests, monks, and nuns. The reasons are both ecclesiastical and economic. In the first place it gives the pope and his prelates a higher degree of control over the priests and nuns, so that, not having wives or husbands or families which must be consulted in making their plans, they are more responsive to the orders of the hierarchy and can be transferred more readily from one parish to another or to different points around the world. And secondly, property owned by the priests, which in some cases is quite considerable, and which if they were married would go to their families, either automatically falls to the church or likely will be left to it by choice in much larger proportion. Thus the pope has secured for himself an army readily available to carry out his commands. That in accomplishing this purpose the priests and nuns are doomed to a life of celibacy, oftentimes to a life of misery in contending against nature, appears to be of little concern to the hierarchy.

Another thing non-Catholics do not understand is that a priest's vows of celibacy is a willful act of love for God. The priest consecrates His life (body, soul and spirit) to God. There is no way when you are married with children that you can give God your full attention. Our time and age will not allow that. There are too many distractions.

Name: SueB • Date: 03/06/07 21:19

A: Pat, first off...I am sorry for the pain you endured . I pray that justice will be served for what you went through. I can only imagine how angry you must feel inside. There is no excuse for what happened. I can only say that forgiveness is a form of love and it aids the healing process. As Jesus said to Peter forgive your neighbor 70 x 7. I understand how difficult this may be for you...but Jesus asks this of us.

Why did homosexual men enter the priesthood knowing it is against the Catholic faith? I can only conclude that: 1) They were afraid society would discover their secret and reject them. 2) they had no feelings towards the opposite sex and had no desire to get married, therefore needed an outlet 3) They felt comfortable with the idea of being in an all male environment, and 4) They were ashamed of their homosexual feelings and reconciled their lives in service to God as penance .

My Regarding celibacy, I disagree with you. I stand by the Pope's decision for celibacy. Jesus was the first Great High Priest and he was pure. If He was not completely pure there would have been no need for an immaculate conception.

To understood the Catholic faith in its true form it is extremely vital that you look past all the debris that has been brought into the Church over the centuries. It takes alot of courage and strength to do this. Take away the pomp and glory....the buildings, the land, the monasteries, monks, nuns...etc. the Church will still be there! The Catholic faith is centered around the Holy Eucharist, Jesus' true presence. It's all about Jesus and nothing else. The rituals, money, land, power have nothing to do with Catholicism. People, Priest, Holy Eucharist and exercising the sacraments = the Church. The early Church had more lay people than priests...but it was because there were few ordained priests at that time.

Regarding married priests.....you may have forgotton that an ordained Deacon can marry and have children. They can do everything a Priest does except for consecrating the Host into the Body and Blood of Christ and hearing confessions. People seem to forget this for some reason and I'm not sure why.

The army you speak of mons, nuns etc.....are simply prayer warriors for God. Who else will pray 24-7? They are a blessing to the Earth and you will not know the impact they have made till you pass over. Their prayers have saved earth many times over from catastorphes...i.e. comets and asteroids.

Name: Pat • Date: 03/07/07 2:49

A: SueB wrote:

A: Pat, first off...I am sorry for the pain you endured . I pray that justice will be served for what you went through. I can only imagine how angry you must feel inside. There is no excuse for what happened. I can only say that forgiveness is a form of love and it aids the healing process.

Pat wrote:
I have forgiven however the kids after me kill one of the priests and they had to closed the school down

SueB wrote:

Why did homosexual men enter the priesthood knowing it is against the Catholic faith? I can only conclude that: 1) They were afraid society would discover their secret and reject them. 2) they had no feelings towards the opposite sex and had no desire to get married, therefore needed an outlet 3) They felt comfortable with the idea of being in an all male environment, and 4) They were ashamed of their homosexual feelings and reconciled their lives in service to God as penance .

Pat wrote:

Wrong young priests and 15,16,17,18, years of age had no idea of what they were getting into. They have no idea of their sexualty and what they are giving up. Sexual repression leads to horrific trajedies.

They had no knowledge about the degree of their libido. Sex is a very healthy thing. You cannot equate celibacy and sainthood.

Sue are you also aware that there are cemeteries fill of infants buried because off springs between nuns and priests around the world?

Sue wrote:

My Regarding celibacy, I disagree with you. I stand by the Pope's decision for celibacy. Jesus was the first Great High Priest and he was pure. If He was not completely pure there would have been no need for an immaculate conception.

Pat wrote:
There is nothing more pure than a man that loves a wife that has children and does God works and help his fellow man.

Sex/ orgasam/ love /children is the most pure thing. It is life its creation

What do you thing God gaves us genitals. To procreate and have pleasure. The Catholic Church as brainwashed you that sex is sin. And this to make a buck by controlling you.

I do no think that you know much about the Popes, the Catholic church and sex history.
Please read the following. Your into a real treat of knowlege.

The following his history facts and recordings about the popes sexual escapades and things they did that was inappropriate.

Please read Papal Impropriety thought out the centuries

It was said that Pope John XII (955-64) invented sins that had not been known since the beginning of the world and whole monasteries spent days and nights praying for his death. He turned his home, the Lateran Palace, into a brothel. He used the papal treasury to pay off his gambling debts. He died on May 14th 964 aged twenty-four, after he was caught in bed by the husband of one of his mistresses in 'the very act of adultery'.

Pope Innocent VIII (1484-92) sired eight illegitimate sons and probably as many daughters, of whom he openly acknowledged. His reign as Pope was known as 'The Golden Age of Bastards'. He authorized an inquisition against those thought to be witches. On his death bed a wet nurse was found for his final craving - woman's milk.

Pope John XXII (1316-34) excommunicated fellow clergymen for not paying their taxes.

In 1932, Pope Pius XI (1922-39) as well as condemning contraception, ordered German Catholics to drop their hostility towards Hitler. He also backed Mussolini's invasion of Abyssinia.

Pope Celastine II (1143-44) had a certain Count Jordan condemned to a horrible death, he was strapped naked to a scalding iron chair while a red-hot crown was nailed to his head.

Pope Innocent III (1198-1216) instituted the approved method of interrogation of suspected sodomites. In order to make them confess, suspects were lowered naked onto a red-hot spike. This method was kept until the year 1816.

Robert of Geneva was well known for his ability to decapitate a man with a pike. He became Pope Clement VII (1378-94) and was 'much given to fleshy pleasure'. He surrounded himself with page boys, whose jackets, it was noted, shrunk from being knee length, to mid-buttock 'or even worse'.

Pope Benedict XIII (1394-1417) gave a dispensation to the twenty-nine-year-old Richard II of England to marry Isabella, the seven-year-old daughter of the King of France.

The child-pope Benedict IX (who became Pope at the age of 12!) was bi-sexual, sodomised animals, ordered murders and dabbled in witchcraft and Satanism. He loved to throw wild, bi-sexual orgies. Benedict IX held the post of Pope in the years 1032-44, 1045 and 1047-48. He was described as "A demon from hell in the disguise of a priest...", and St Peter Damian said of him: "That wretch, from the beginning of his pontificate to the end of his life, feasted on immorality". Dante estimated that under Benedict IX the papacy reached an all-time low in immorality and debauchery. When he was 23 he survived an assassination attempt (strangling at the altar during Mass). Benedict went on to marry his cousin and sell the papacy to his godfather, Gregory VI.
Pope Boniface VII (974; 984-85) was described as: "a horrid monster" and "a man who in criminality surpassed all the rest of mankind".

In the year 440 Pope Sixtus III (432-40) was tried for the seduction of a nun.

Pope Leo I (440-61) was a warped and sadistic torturer. He made his victims confess that they mixed semen with the sacrament and used young girls at the altar for the purpose. He was the first Pope to claim the right to put anyone who disagreed with him to death.

Pope Pius VII (1800-23) condemned bible societies as "a most abominable invention that destroyed the very foundation of religion".

It was widely rumored that the ex-pirate Pope John XXIII (1410-15) was an Atheist. He tortured his own cardinals and was said to have "had wicked company with two of his own sisters". Robert Hallum, Bishop of Salisbury said that he: "ought to be burnt at the stake".

The homosexual Pope Paul II (1464-71) liked to see naked men being racked and tortured. Allegedly, he died of a heart attack whilst being sodomized by one of his favorite boys.

Pope John XIII (965-72) { yes, I know there was more than one John XIII } was condemned as an adulterer who "defiled his father's concubine and his own niece". He was said to have died at the hands of an enraged husband, caught in the act of adultery - just like his dad, Pope John XII.

Pope Sergius III (904-11) enjoyed sex with underage girls. According to the historian Baronius, Sergius III was "the slave of every vice". When he was 45, Sergius took a 15- year-old mistress - the affair produced a son who went on to become Pope John XI.

Pope Stephen VI (896-97) had the body of his predecessor, Pope Formosus (891-96) dug up, dressed in papal vestments, set on a throne and tried for perjury and coveting the papacy.

Pope Benedict XII (1334-42) was such a hardened drinker that the expression "drunk as a pope" became popular in his lifetime.

Pope Anacletus (1130-8) committed incest with his sister and several other female relatives. He enjoyed raping nuns.

Pope Clement VI (1342-52) was described by Petrarch as "an ecclesiastical Dionysus with his obscene and infamous artifices". Clement VI slept with prostitutes and had dozens of mistresses. When he died, fifty priests said Mass for the repose of his soul for nine consecutive days, but it was generally agreed that this was not going to be nearly enough to prevent the dead pope from going directly to hell.

Pope Pius II (1458-64) had been a well known author of erotic literature, and had fathered about 12 illegitimate children.

The Sistine Chapel was built by Pope Sixtus IV (1471-84). He had six illegitimate sons, of which one was the result of an incestuous relationship with his sister.

Pope Julius II (1503-13) who commissioned Michelangelo to paint the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, was a pedophile and spent much of his time with small boys and male prostitutes.

In the year 1095 Pope Urban II introduced the caladium, a sex tax which allowed the clergy to keep mistresses, provided they paid an annual fee to the papacy. This had the immediate effect of reducing the use of concubines and hugely increasing clerical homosexuality.

Pope Paul III (1534-49) enjoyed an incestuous relationship with his daughter. To gain control of his family inheritance, he poisoned several relatives, including his mother and niece. He killed two cardinals and a Polish bishop to settle an argument over a theological point. Paul III was probably Rome's biggest ever pimp - he kept a roll of about 45,000 prostitutes, who paid him a monthly tribute.

Pope Julius III (1550-55) sodomized young boys, of which one was his own, illegitimate, son. He appointed several handsome teenage boys as cardinals. Cardinal della Casa's famous poem In Praise of Sodomy was dedicated to Pope Julius III.

Sexually active popes
Saint Peter, traditionally the first Pope, was married (Jesus cured his mother-in-law), known to have taken his wife along on his apostolic/mission journeys (1 Cor. 9:5).
Pope St. Hormisdas (514–523) was married and widowed before ordination. He was the father of Pope Silverius. [1]
Pope Adrian II (867–872) was married, before taking orders, and had a daughter.
Pope Sergius III (904–911) was supposedly the father of Pope John XI by Marozia (Source: Liber Pontificalis, Liutprand of Cremona).
Pope John XII (955–963) (deposed by Conclave) was said to have turned the Basilica di San Giovanni in Laterano into a brothel and was accused of adultery, fornication, and incest (Source: Patrologia Latina).[2]
Pope Clement IV (1265–1268) was married, before taking holy orders, and had several children.
Pope Pius II (1458–1464) had several illegitimate children.[citation needed]
Pope Innocent VIII (1484–1492) had several illegitimate children.
Pope Alexander VI (1492–1503) had a notably long affair with Vannozza dei Cattanei before his papacy, by whom he had his famous illegitimate children Cesare and Lucrezia. A later mistress, Giulia Farnese, was the sister of Alessandro Farnese, who later became Pope Paul III. Rumors of Alexander's sexual activity were even more wild — see Banquet of Chestnuts. He fathered a total of seven children.
Pope Julius II (1503–1513) had three illegitimate daughters.
Pope Clement VII (1523–1534) was probably the father of Alessandro de' Medici, whom he made Duke of Florence.
Pope Paul III (1534–1549) held off ordination in order to continue his promiscuous lifestyle, fathering four illegitimate children by his mistress. His nickname was "Cardinal Petticoat" because his sister Giulia had been Alexander VI's mistress. He made his illegitimate son Pier Luigi Farnese the first Duke of Parma.
Pope Pius IV (1559–1565) had several illegitimate children.
Pope Gregory XIII (1572–1585) had an illegitimate son before he took holy orders.

Allegedly sexually active popes
Pope Benedict IX (1032–1044, 1045–1046, 1047–1048) Accused by Bishop Benno of Placenta of "many vile adulteries and murders." Pope Victor III referred to "his rapes, murders and other unspeakable acts. His life as a Pope so vile, so foul, so execrable, that I shudder to think of it."
Pope Clement II (1046–1047) died from consuming too much lead sugar, which was used at the time as a cure for venereal diseases. It is unknown whether Clement took the lead sugar to treat a sexually transmitted disease or if he was poisoned by a third party.

Popes who died during sex

Catholic Popes who were said to have died during sex: Pope Leo VII (936–939) died of a heart attack, Pope John XII (955–964) was bludgeoned to death by the husband of the woman he was with at the time, Pope John XIII (965–972) was also murdered by a jealous husband.

The Catholic is a big joke and if Jesus comes back he will sure whip the asses.
This trillion multinational is not following Jesus one iota.

Sorry to rain on your parade. Sue it is a big joke my friend and Benedict XVI as a 26 years old lover.

Name: Jack D Viau • Date: 03/07/07 4:14

A: Jesus is the Father of the Universe. He never was a husband because he was not allowded to get married and have childrens. He was a carpenter, not a scultor. He also stay away from leaving personnal things from behind. However, He did had brothers and sisters.
The fact that priest can't marry is not from Jesus, but from Paul (Saul)

Name: Pat • Date: 03/07/07 8:37

A: Jack D Viau wrote:

He never was a husband because he was not allowded to get married and have childrens.

Pat wrote :
Wrong we do not know that.

Jack D Viau wrote:

The fact that priest can't marry is not from Jesus, but from Paul (Saul)
Pat wrote:

Wrong. St. Paul says that bishops were to have wife and children. (Read I Tim. 3:2,5, and 12; Matt. 8:14-15). ...

Paul's conclusion: He who marries "does well; and he who refrains from marriage will do better" (7:38).
Paul was not the first apostle to conclude that celibacy is, in some sense, "better" than marriage.

Paul never said that priests cannot marry.

Name: SueB • Date: 03/07/07 22:07

A: Pat, you have not commented on the fact that Catholic Deacons can be married. Why?

I say leave the past in the past. History has repeated itself time and time again. I am awareof this and I know what you are trying to do here. The thing is....you need to forgive the past. Otherwise you will NEVER be able to move on to a peaceful future existence.

I understand that priest and nuns and whoever harmed innocent people. I'm not debating that. The Church has and is still having it's problems. Nobody is perfect except for God. When you realize that fact you can accept that people make mistakes. They do evil things without regard for others. It is a fact of life. What God asks all of us to do regardless of what faith we follow...is to forgive one another. Love God and love your neighbor as self.

Honestly...I do not want to preach to anybody. It's just that you unfairly blame everybody for what a handful of people did. To me, that is pretty unfair. I do not label people like that.

Name: tmf-reporter • Date: 03/07/07 22:34

A: The truth of the matter is that "biblically" Jesus was not a father nor a husband. He was the only begotten son of God. He never had a marital relation and therefore could not have been a father niether... Think it through the bible in no way declared that Jesus took part in a marital relation of any sort!

Name: rayles • Date: 03/08/07 1:18

A: I will be very happy if that is true, but I am more happy for this page that shows to me that Christians "have been more important that Kings and nobody has pesecuted them" in the first century.
Also I am very happy "that only the tombs of Christians were alive".
Excuse me Mr.Simcha Jokobovici , but we are not kids to believe your stories that are not right with history and is a complete invetion.
If you are a jounalist is better for you to open more tombs and check if thay have the same paterrn in dna as the other of that time.
Do not full people with your ideas that are not honest and professional

Name: Pat • Date: 03/08/07 3:19

A: SueB • wrote:

A: Pat, you have not commented on the fact that Catholic Deacons can be married. Why?

Pat wrote:

In Roman Catholic, Anglican, and Orthodox churches, deacons assist priests in their pastoral and administrative duties, but report directly to the bishop. They have a distinctive role in the liturgy, their main tasks being to read the Gospel and assist in the administration of the Eucharist.

They are not priests nor Bishops nor Cardinals nor the pope. They are not tied to celibacy.

I have a very peaceful existence.
The horrible things of the past in the Catholic Church is still in the present my dear weather you realize it or not.

Your wish to remain blind.

Sue wrote

Honestly...I do not want to preach to anybody. It's just that you unfairly blame everybody for what a handful of people did. To me, that is pretty unfair. I do not label people like that.

Pat wrote:

I gave you an history of what happened in the Catholic Church in the past and this is without counting what is happening today. Give me a break. You call this a handful of people?.

Why do you think that the Church as spent over 2 billions dollars just on pedophilia settlements in the catholic church. This just for a handful of people.

I guess you have not idea what the Vatican is up to.

Sue to your words ……….To me, that is pretty unfair. I do not label people like that.

Why don't you go to the following link and try
Vatican Assassins you might learn something of what has been going on in our Church since 465 AD

http://www.vaticanassassins.org/

Why don’t you also do some recherche concerning Pope Pius 12 and Hitler your hair will fall out.

Name: heavyrevy • Date: 03/08/07 19:33

A: First, let me correct an error. Elsewhere in these postings, someone states that the most important command to the Jews was to be fruitful and multiply. That is not correct. That command was given to Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. The most important command God gave to the Hebrew people is found in the Ten Commandments - and later stated by Jesus Himself - is to love the Lord God and to have no other gods before Him. The second, according to Jesus, is to love your neighbor as yourself.
Now, as for Jesus marrying and having a family. While this is nice in theory, in practicality it cannot be true. I'll try to explain why briefly:
First, sin entered the world (see the book of Genesis). Second, the Bible teaches that sin is passed through the blood (there are numerous references in the Bible). Third, science has revealed that the blood is passed from father to child through the father's DNA. This is important as it's the reason Jesus could be born of a human mother and still retain His sinless nature. Fourth, Jesus had a sinless nature (read the Gospels and the writings of Paul, Peter and John). Now, if Jesus, having a sinless nature, were to marry and have children, His children then would also have sinless natures too. This would mean that they then (the males anyway) would have children with sinless natures and their children would have children with sinless natures and on and on down through the ages. When's the last time you met someone who didn't sin? That would also mean that anyone of His children could, in theory, take on the sins of the world and die for mankind's salvation. The Bible teaches very clearly that sin came into this world by one man (Adam) and salvation came into this world by one man (Jesus). The Bible also teaches that God made a provision to redeem those of us lost to sin (all of mankind). That provision was that one sinless could take on the sins of the whole world (past, present and future) and pay the penalty for that sin - Death.
That Jesus was that person was made evident by God Himself through the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ thus proving Jesus' claim of Messiah. And the reason the tomb was found empty.
Too brief? Perhaps. I've tried to be as concise as possible without taking up too much space in this thread.

Name: baptism9 • Date: 03/08/07 20:13

A: Jesus is the Everlasting Father according to Isaiah 9:6 but this is only talking about spiritual sons and daughters. Jesus was never defiled with women on earth as it has been alledged. Had he had sexual contact with any woman, he never would have been elevated and exalted to his present position as GOD. Read Acts 2:32 and 33 which substantiates his elevation. This fallacy of him and Mary Magdalen is an accusation that God is going to reckon the perpetrator of that unfounded allegation. Jesus is an immortalized Superman and this was done because he died perfectly SINLESS. That is why he is the Father of the New Testament Church and has many spiritual sons through repentance and Water Baptism in his name., Acts 2:38. You also have to take into perspective Jesus' immediate family. His mother had 6 more children, Jesus being the oldest and firstborn son of Mary. These tombs that have been found are more than likely the family tomb. His mother Mary died and also Joseph her husband died before she did and so did his other brethren and sisters. So this is the discovery of Jesus' brothers, sisters, Mother and earthly father, Joseph, I am sure.

Name: chemba • Date: 03/12/07 15:04

A: God is not as what we think. It is a concept about nature and its fuction.

For more details please visit the web pages,

http://understanding-the-life.blogspot.com/ and other important details about God, life and universe through ancient arts, and words, you may go and see all pages from

http://www2.blogger.com/-profile/01439148689153182226-

Name: SueB • Date: 03/13/07 20:56

A: Pat, I will never submit myself to the negativity you continue to subject yourself to. If you continue on that path you will never see the good in anything or anybody. Many men and women in many Christian and non-Christian faiths and political realms have gone astray for one reason or another. Am I going to waste my time pointing out what these people did wrong for the rest of my life or am I going to use my time in a more beneficial manner? If I listed all the wonderful things the Popes, Bishops and priests did through throughout the centuries since St. Peter they would far outnumber the negative things you posted. Bashing anything out of spite is pointless. It may make you feel better but you are hurting other people in the process to make yourself feel better.

Name: Pat • Date: 03/14/07 14:32

A: SueB wrote:

Pat, I will never submit myself to the negativity you continue to subject yourself to. If you continue on that path you will never see the good in anything or anybody.

Pat wrote:
Nobody is asking you to submit to anything. And who are you to judge me and come out with these false statements.
I see a lot of good done in the world but it ain't in the Catholic Church.

Instead of being so sanctimoniously while preaching that the catholic church is so great ask yourself if this church is simply following the word and example of Jesus Christ.

There are over 2 billion people that live with less than $2.00 on earth every day.
There are over 1 billion people that live with less that $1.00 on earth everyday.

Where is the Catholic Church for them when the Catholic church posses trillions of dollars invested in stocks, properties, real estate paintings, military and nuclear arnments ?

Is this what Jesus preach? To amass here fortune on earth ?
Did he not say it is harder for a rich man to enter heaven than a camel to pass through the eye of a needle.

Did he not tell to the rich young man that even if is life was godly he had to sell all his riches and give it to the poor.

Huum I wonder how many people the Pope could educate to a better life or save them from starvation just by the sell off of his Tierra when he gets crowned?
Jesus sures did not run around with a crown and billions of dollars worth of paintings?

I don’t think so.

When the pope ordered the closing of Catholics Clinics because the nuns were are giving out condoms to aids stricken Africa, is that real Christian ? I do not think so.

Sue wrote:

Many men and women in many Christian and non-Christian faiths and political realms have gone astray for one reason or another. Am I going to waste my time pointing out what these people did wrong for the rest of my life or am I going to use my time in a more beneficial manner?

Pat wrote:
Who is asking you to do that? Do as you please. But one thing for sure even if you live in your don’t ask and don’t tell bubble things are still not what they seem to be.

The Catholic Church is part of the One world Order and wants to rule the world because in its eyes it is by Devine degree. The temporal power of the Church and Pope is to have everything and everyone under submission.

Sue wrote:

If I listed all the wonderful things the Popes, Bishops and priests did through throughout the centuries since St. Peter they would far outnumber the negative things you posted. Bashing anything out of spite is pointless. It may make you feel better but you are hurting other people in the process to make yourself feel better.

Pat wrote:
I do not think so.
Pope Innocent III papal bull of March 25th, 1199.7
Innocent declared "anyone who attempted to construe a personal view of god which conflicted with the church dogma must be burned without pity."8

The Inquisition was a campaign of torture, mutilation, mass murder and destruction of human life . The church increased in power until it had total control over human life, both secular and religious.
The Vatican wasn't satisfied with the progress made by regional leaders in rooting out heresy.

Here is a nice link about the inquisition. The Catholic Church murdered millions of men women and children. Here you might relish at such good works of your thoughtful popes. I am not basing but putting out facts.

http://www.exposingchrist-ianity.com/Inquisition.html

Fact-s- are facts my friend and it as nothing to do in hurting or wanting to feel better.
The Catholic Church and the Vatican as always had an agenda which was to rule the world by any means. And this they have proved and done it since they took over from the Roman Pagan Religion when emperor Constantine converted and declared that the Catholic Religion would be the official religion of the empire.

Since its starting point till it’s final conclusion and defeat the Catholic Church as been on a rampage. The Catholic Church and the Vatican did not create Islam for nothing.

Name: Pat • Date: 03/14/07 15:20

A: Sue wrote:

If I listed all the wonderful things the Popes, Bishops and priests did through throughout the centuries since St. Peter they would far outnumber the negative things you posted

Pat wrote:

Sex crimes and the Vatican
BBC.co.uk Friday, 29 September 2006, 13:55 GMT 14:55 UK

A secret document which sets out a procedure for dealing with child sex abuse scandals within the Catholic Church

Crimen Sollicitationis was enforced for 20 years by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger before he became the Pope.

It instructs bishops on how to deal with allegations of child abuse against priests and has been seen by few outsiders.

Critics say the document has been used to evade prosecution for sex crimes.

Crimen Sollicitationis was written in 1962 in Latin and given to Catholic bishops worldwide who are ordered to keep it locked away in the church safe.

It instructs them how to deal with priests who solicit sex from the confessional. It also deals with "any obscene external act ... with youths of either sex."

It imposes an oath of secrecy on the child victim, the priest dealing with the allegation and any witnesses.

Breaking that oath means excommunication from the Catholic Church.

Reporting for Panorama, Colm O'Gorman finds seven priests with child abuse allegations made against them living in and around the Vatican City.

One of the priests, Father Joseph Henn, has been indicted on 13 molestation charges brought by a grand jury in the United States.

During filming for Sex Crimes and the Vatican, Colm finds Father Henn is fighting extradition orders from inside the headquarters of this religious order in the Vatican.

The Vatican has not compelled him to return to America to face the charges against him.

After filming, Father Henn lost his fight against extradition but fled the headquarters and is believed to be hiding in Italy while there is an international warrant for his arrest.

Colm O'Gorman was raped by a Catholic priest in the diocese of Ferns in County Wexford in Ireland when he was 14 years old.

Father Fortune was charged with 66 counts of sexual, indecent assault and another serious sexual offence relating to eight boys but he committed suicide on the eve of his trial.

Colm started an investigation with the BBC in March 2002 which led to the resignation of Dr Brendan Comiskey, the bishop leading the Ferns Diocese.

Colm then pushed for a government inquiry which led to the Ferns Report.

It was published in October 2005 and found: "A culture of secrecy and fear of scandal that led bishops to place the interests of the Catholic Church ahead of the safety of children."

The Catholic Church has 50 million children in its worldwide congregation and no universal child protection policy although in the UK there is the Catholic Office for the Protection of Children & Vulnerable Adults.

In some countries this means that the Crimen Sollicitationis is the only policy followed.

Name: joe joe • Date: 03/15/07 5:43

A: During Early Jewish times, it was very unusual for a man not to get amrried. (Not that Jesus was normal). I think that he did get married, and he might have even had a child. It is not a fact that he did not marry, or have a child.

Name: SueB • Date: 03/15/07 17:59

A: Pat, Try to remember the Our Father Prayer "Our Father.....and forgive us our tresspasses as we forgive those who tresspass against us". It does not matter what Christian faith you follow. If you do not forgive your neighbor than you have missed the point of Christianity. God Bless you.

Name: SueB • Date: 03/15/07 18:18

A: Pat, I will never give up on Catholicism because (I mean no disrespect to other Christian denominations...but II truly believe with all my heart) that it is the one, true Apostolic Church Jesus instituted on Earth. The Holy Eucharist (true presence of God rests in every tabernacle all over the world). That is the reason I remain faithful to my Church.. Whatever man did in the past or present to bring the Roman Catholic Church down to the pit...I forgive them. What else can I do? God wants us to forgive one another. I am praying that justice will be served to those who have been hurt. To be faithful to something means you have to take the good with the bad...and yes....it has been VERY bad lately. You don't have to remind us. God will bring justice to all of us when our day comes. I'm not going to waste my time pointing out the errors of others. Their day will come soon enough.

Name: Pat • Date: 03/15/07 18:27

A: SueB wrote:

Pat wrote:
There you go again moralizing while avoiding the real problems of the church past and present.
Crimen Sollicitationis was a document enforced for 20 years by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger before he became the Pope.

While I and other kids in 1962 were getting molested by priests your present pope was sending document to the bishops to tell their priests to hide and shut their mouths concerning molested cases.

Your dear pope conspire to silence physical and sexual abuses.
It imposes an oath of secrecy on the child victim, the priest dealing with the allegation and any witnesses. These are criminals acts. Just like other popes did some very evil things.

Breaking that oath means excommunication from the Catholic Church.

So Sue go turn your tongue 7 times in your mouth before your talk about forgivness. Maybe if you would of got rape or molested by a priest you would think otherwise.

Your just to dumb and blind to see that the Catholic Church is evil at the core since 576 ad.
It's history is full of attocities.

No wonder Pope Paul 6 said that Satan had entered the church.
You are just to brainwashed to see the light.

Name: Pat • Date: 03/15/07 22:04

A: SueB wrote :

Pat, I will never give up on Catholicism because (I mean no disrespect to other Christian denominations...but II truly believe with all my heart) that it is the one, true Apostolic Church Jesus instituted on Earth. The Holy Eucharist (true presence of God rests in every tabernacle all over the world).

Pat wrote:
That doctrine officially came about in 1551 at the Council of Trent. And you have been brainwash to believe this dogma. There is no God sitting in little tabernacles.

Around 1600 the church officially defined that "by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation" (Session XIII, chapter IV; cf. canon II).

This is when it really became enforced and drill into people like you.

Sue wrote:
That is the reason I remain faithful to my Church.. Whatever man did in the past or present to bring the Roman Catholic Church down to the pit...I forgive them. What else can I do?

Pat wrote:
What a silly reason to stick to a church. In you eyes its fine for a church with its popes and clergy to murder people but one must forgive them because they can change the wine and bread into the body of Christ.

And you have the nerve to say that the Catholic Church is the true Apostolic Church that Jesus instituted. They have brainwashed you into a lie.

If Jesus comes back he is going to destroy that evil wicked prostituted church.

Sue wrote:

To be faithful to something means you have to take the good with the bad...and yes....it has been VERY bad lately.
Pat wrote:
How sick I guess that if you are married you must stick to and be faithful to marriage. Meaning if your Husband beets the crap out of you one must endure.
Boy did the church program you well.

Name: SueB • Date: 03/16/07 20:58

A: Pat, Jesus instituted the Holy Eucharist on Holy Thursday at the last supper. The truth of the Real Presence of Christ began there. It was recognized officially by the Church later. Jesus said "take, eat, this is my body, which is broken for you for the remission of sins". He did not say this is representative of my body...he said this IS my body. I'm not going to go any further with you Pat. May the blessings of the United Hearts of Jesus and Mary be with you always. God bless.

Name: Pat • Date: 03/17/07 14:50

A: SueB wrote:
A: Pat, Jesus instituted the Holy Eucharist on Holy Thursday at the last supper. The truth of the Real Presence of Christ began there. It was recognized officially by the Church later. Jesus said "take, eat, this is my body, which is broken for you for the remission of sins". He did not say this is representative of my body...he said this IS my body. I'm not going to go any further with you Pat. May the blessings of the United Hearts of Jesus and Mary be with you always. God bless.

Pat wrote:

Sue,
Jesus never wrote anything in the first place. That is a dogma that the Catholic Church invented.
May the Creator God open yours eyes to the real truth.
Amen and Amen

Name: Jeff Zinsmeyer • Date: 03/19/07 23:51

A: Short answer is because of 'apostle' crazy Paul. Celibacy came much later in church history and is a mistake. Jesus chose mature family men to follow him in the great majority. And you need only look to the sex scandals to see who this served - the devil himself

Name: sam • Date: 03/23/07 23:00

A: Not before long, Judas Gospel was found !.

"After being lost for nearly 1,700 years, the Gospel of Judas was recently restored, authenticated, and translated. (NG)".

And the debate started. On one side the rulers of the churches and their followers, those who rejected this gospel and many others (Mary, Barnabas, Thomas, the Nazarene Gospel, the Acts of Philip etc.) period. Why?, because it was rejected before by their fathers (IN ROME) centuries ago, those who decided what to burn and what to keep.

And on the other side, the open minded people, and the scientific communities who find this gospel and others and accept them as an open window to that period of time, which might reveal the truth and bring the facts, since they know a lot about the circumstances that led to disappearance of the gospels.

While the debate about Judas Gospel still going on, and before it finish, another debate started !,

Now. "The Lost Tomb of Jesus is found !". " A CASE IS MADE that the 2,000-year-old "Tomb of the Ten Ossuaries" belonged to the family of Jesus of Nazareth.", (discovery site)."

Debate, debate, and more debates!.
Debates arise because of disagreement, and the never ending disagreements prove that there is something wrong in the stories that make up the teaching of the churches. The open minded scientific people, using the logic and the latest scientific methods to find the truth, while the other side try to support their point of view by bringing back the old stories which went under many debates within the churches and their people during the past 2000 years.

The first debate came not long after Jesus death. The early Christians in the holy land who believed in Jesus as a Prophet, the promised one according to the teaching of their holy Book, and He teaches the same commandments that came before Him, and the one and only God is His & their GOD, (THE LORD 'OUR' GOD IS LONE LORD-M12:29*)were faced by new line of teaching which came by Paul, after he claim of a vision and preached for the first time, that Jesus is the son of God, which started in Damascus (for the first time in Damascus not in Jerosalem & the holy-land). There was a debates lasted many years, and the one who did not agree with him been called "hypocrite", even Barnabas the one who sold his land to support Jesus and His apostles was condemned by Paul!, and Paul forced the others to follow his teaching only!, here an example ("But even if WE (Paul and his followers), or an ANGEL (God’s Angel) from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you (what we chose for you), HE IS TO BE ACCURSED." Galatians- 1:8 ), (Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world?....Do you not know that ' WE' (ME+ my followers) WE WILL JUDGE THE ANGELS? -1cor:6:2/3)
Can anyone believe that anyone on earth is able to judge GOD ANGELS?. Those who created them from spirit, those who are His messengers who came to Abraham, Moses and Jesus. I s what Paul said has any Logic or a common sence?.

Paul’s idea accepted and flourished among the Greeks and the Romans who believed in many gods and sons, and later on spread back east by the power of the Romans and their followers.

The second debate came in 325 AD at NICAEA "that the doctrine of the Trinity was rammed by Athanacius (using mafia tactics) in a council that was overseen by the EMPEROR CONSTANTINE who, ironically enough, thought of himself as God-incarnate (Constantine was a sun worshiper and only made an official conversion to "Christianity" on his deathbed. -Christianity from Paul teaching "Jesus the son of God"). Many of those present at the council of Nicaea were opposed the doctrine of the Trinity, siding with Arius. Even after the NICENE GREED, THE TRINITY WAS HOTLY DEBATED FOR DECADES AND CENTURIES AFTER.

"In 381 AD the struggle was finaly ended by the current Emperor, Theodosius the Great, who favored the Nicene position. Just like Nicaea, the Emperor again decided it. THE EMPERORS WERE DICTATING THE THEOLOGY OF THE CHURCH !!!." "The Trinitarian church has silenced critical thought and dealt treacherously with anyone of open mind and free thought."

My point of view is: "THE TRUTH CAN BE FOUND ONLY BY USING THE LOGIC AND SUPPORT IT WITH FACTS AND BY UTILIZING SCIENTIFIC METHODS".

The word of Jesus came to Him from God, (it is by Jesus word in the gospels), and the word of God holds within all the truth, and that should be used as "parameter" or "scale" in any debate that goes on about the gospels or about Jesus Himself. So we cannot change "the son of man" into "the son of God" because someone thought so, and we cannot create a "Trinity", if Jesus did not mention it in His own word. The word of the Bishop of Rome should not be taken as the whole truth, and ignore completely the word of God and Jesus. "THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD", "NO ONE IS GOOD EXCEPT GOD ALONE". That is the truth, can any believer deny what Jesus said?.
FACTS: Even in 21st century there are people who follow Paul's and the Roman's teaching forgeting that the truth only comes from God word, the words that Jesus spoke in the name of His God "OUR GOD".
"the word which you hear IS NOT MINE, BUT THE FATHER'S who sent Me.-J14:24". .... "I CAN DO NOTHING ON MY OWN INITIATIVE...-J5:30
Mary Ann Collin (a former Catholic Nun), wrote, "Ordinary people can understand the bible. We don’t have to rely on experts or church officials.
The basic principles are SIMPLE enough for a child to understand." also she said about the churches, ""Forbidden people to interpret the bible for themselves."

The churches still believe that the people today are not qualified to judge for themselves!!!.

The truth can be hidden, smached and cut to pieces and burned, but it will never die. Those discoveries in the last few decades are a solid proof to that. One after another!, Do anyone believe those came at this time by chance?, you think if those discoveries (books or Tomb) came a little bit earlier they will survive under the laws of the churches?. It is like magic that discoveries came while there are different laws which rules, the laws of the civilized people of the 20 &21st centuries. It is the will of God.

Name: sam • Date: 03/25/07 15:53

A: Pat, you gave this statement:
"Since its starting point till it’s final conclusion and defeat the Catholic Church as been on a rampage. The Catholic Church and the Vatican did not create Islam for nothing. "

While you been right about the catholic church and the Vatican and the popes/bishops, and their wrong teaching whish in most part are shared by the other churches and which came from Paul and the Greek and the Romans, but you made a big mistake when you claim that Islam created by the catholic church. You sould know better. Islam, is the believe in one God, the God of Abraham, Moses, Jesus and the rest of the prophets. Islam believe in all the prophet including Jesus, and believe in all their words, the words that came to them from God.
While the Jews has many books, and the Chirstians has many books too (they kept four which agree with Paul agenda & destroyed the rest which holds the truth) and follow the churches, the Muslim has one book, and they follow that book only, in their book there is full chapter in the name of Mary, Jesus mother, and Jesus were mentioned 33 times, while Muhammad name mentioned only 4 times.Here what the Quran said about Mary:
"And when the angels said, "O MARY, INDEED GOD HAS CHOSEN YOU AND PURIFIED YOU AND CHOSEN YOU ABOVE THE WOMEN OF THE WORLD." Q-3:42.
And about Moses and Jesus:
"And WE did certainly give Moses the scripture (the Torah) and followed up after Him with messengers. And WE GAVE JESUS , THE SON OF MARY, CLEAR PROOFS AND SUPPORTD HIM WITH THE PURE SPIRIT. BUT IT IS (NOT) THAT EVERY TIME A MESSENGER CAME TO YOU, WITH WHAT YOUR SOULS DID NOT DESIRE, YOU WERE ARROGANT?. AND A PARTY OF MESSENGERS YOU DENIED AND ANOTHER PARTY YOU KILLED." Q2:87
Here are the true words of Jesus:
"Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James and Jeses and Judas and Simon?. Are not His sisters here with us?. AND THEY TOOK DFFENSE AT HIM. Jesus said to them, "A PROPHET IS NOT WITHOUT HONOR EXCEPT IN HIS HOMETOWN AND AMONG HIS OWN RELATIVES AND IN HIS OWN 'HOUSEHOLD." MR6:3/4
Is what the Quran mentioned is right and agree to what Jesus said, "YOU DENIED" & "WITHOUT HONOR", Did they kill Him after the "denail"? , "you killed".
The finding og Judas gospel proves that they were wrong about him, and the finding of JESUS TOMB proves that the stories about Him were wrong. "While He was blessing them, He parted from them AND WAS CARRIED UP INTO HEAVEN" By Luke..."So then, when the lord Jesus had spoken to them, HE WAS RECIEVED UP INTO HEAVEN AND SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD" By Mark.
Both Luke and Mark never met or saw or heard Jesus, but both were the students of Paul. No one should claim that he saw God and Jesus sitting on His right hand side, those words are against God and they are just a blasphemy. That is if someone understand what Jesus said.
My questions here are:
1- was Jesus talking about Himself as a prophet, or talking about another prophet?, which might happen that the other's mother is called Mary, and his brothers called James, Joses, Judas and Simon?
3- Can be another prophet from the past?, while it clearly said here," the mother Mary and the brothers (four of them) and the sister too ARE AMONG US ?.
4- Why the Christians do not believe in the words of Jesus and believe the words of Paul and the others from Rome?.
5- Why those words means nothing to them, "NO ONE IS GOOD EXCEPT GOD ALONE", "THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD"?
6- Why this clear example is egnored, "TRULY, TRULY, I (JESUS) SAY TO YOU, A SLAVE IS NOT GREATER THAN HIS MASTER, NOR THE ONE WHO IS SENT (JESUS) GREATER THAN THE ONE WHO SENT HIM (GOD).?J-13:16
"THET THEY MAY KNOW YOU, THE ONLY TRUE GOD, and Jesus Christ whom you (GOD) HAVE SENT. J17:3 ?
7- How can be that the words of Jesus are not telling the truth, but the others do?.
8- in every discussion their answers to what the claim about Jesus are supported by by the " Acts, the Romans,corinthians, Galatians etc." and they know for sure that those are just a personal letters from Paul to the other churches, but added to be a part of the holy book, by his order.
Paul achieved his own plan by:
" To the Jews I became as a Jew...to those under the law, as under the law...to those who are without law, as without law...I HAVE BECOME ALL THINGS TO ALL MEN." 1COR-9:20-22
WHY?, for the sake of the gospel or for his own ?, sure he gave us the reason why:
"I DO ALL THING (for the sake of the gospel), "SO" I MAY BECOME A FELLOW PARTAKER OF IT" 9:23
For the sake : "To be a partaker of it" that is the real reason. His folowing words is another proofs:
“But even if WE (Paul and his followers), or an ANGEL (God’s Angel) from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, HE IS TO BE ACCURSED.” Galatians- 1:8
And Jesus said:
“For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.” Matthew- 12:37
"Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men. He was also saying to them, "YOU ARE EXPERTS AT SETTING ASIDE THE COMMANDMENT OF GOD IN ORDER TO KEEP YOU TRADITION." MR.7:8/9
Let us look at some of these commandment:
#1 - YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME.
Jesus: " I DO EXACTLY AS THE FATHER COMMANDED ME. ...BECAUSE THEY DO NOT KNOW THE ONE WHO SENT ME."
#3 - YOU SHALL NOT TAKE THE NAME OF THE LORD YOU GOD IN VAIN...
JESUS SAID: Whoever speaks a word against the son of man (Jesus), it shall be forgiven him; BUT WHOEVER SPEAKS AGAINST THE HOLY SPIRIT (GOD), IT SHALL NOT BE FORGIVEN HIM.....
If Jesus was God or part of God then any word against Him will not be forgiven, and Jesus knows who is GOD and who is He "the son of man".

Pat, you have no knowledge about Islam, except what you been told about it from your leaders, popes or others, and they did not tell you the truth as they did in everything else, as a person who live in the 21st century, you should not be blinded by the others and you should go and find the truth for yourself, here of what the Quran said before 1400 years ago, it is just to give you an idea:
Q- 41:53 We will show them our signs in the horizons and within themselves until it becomes clear to them that it is the truth. (He is the truth). But is it not sufficient concerning your LORD that he is, over all things, a witness.
Q-21:30 Have those who disbelieved not considered that THE HEAVEN AND EARTH WERE A JOINED ENTITY, AND WE SEPARATED THEM, and made from water every living things, then will they not believe?.

-Is that the BIG BANG theory?
Q-51:47 And THE HEAVEN we constructed with strength, and indeed, WE ARE (ITS) EXPANDER.
-Is that the EXPANDING UNIVERSE theory?.
Q-21:33 And it is HE who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all heavenly bodies, in an orbit are swimming.
Are this is representing the fact, but the people of the churches put Galileo under house arrest for finding this fact after 11 centuries from the same came in the Quran, many were burned alive because they bring the truth, but God's word in the Quran asked people to go and search for the truth.
Q-29:20 (O MUHAMMAD), say to them“go travel through the earth and observe HOW THE CREATION BEGAN.
That is the truth about Islam which you try to ignore, by the orders of the churches. The truth does not matter much to them, they want only to hold onto their power and "THEIR TRADITION". That is a fact, and you know how many millions of Christians been killed by the churches orders using different reasons and different names !!!.
God bless you.

Name: SueB • Date: 04/04/07 19:38

A: Perhaps this recent message the Son of God, Jesus Christ sent to Earth just recently will help you understand.

March 2, 2007

“I am your Jesus, born Incarnate.”

“Now this is the way to accept the Divine Will of the Father. Surrender yourself completely to Me. I cannot lead you or provide anything for you outside of the Father’s loving Divine Will. Just as Divine Love and Divine Mercy are one, so too, are the Will of My Father and My Will. His Heart is inseparable from My Own Sacred Heart. Therefore, when you abandon your own will for what I desire, you are surrendering to My Father’s Will for you.

”March 9, 2007

“I am your Jesus, born Incarnate.”

“Today I invite you to see that a person with a false conscience is much like a drunk driver. The drunk driver believes all the decisions he is making are correct and that his judgments are not impaired. The soul with a false conscience sees no error in his decisions either. He does not notice his mistaken judgments.”

“The drunken driver is finally judged by the circumstances and results of his own errors. The soul with a false conscience similarly brings upon himself and others unfortunate outcomes by merit of his thoughts, words and actions. His final test is not one of sobriety, but of his response to My Laws of Holy Love (Ten Commandments).”

Name: Shlomo • Date: 04/05/07 4:02

A: Celebacy is an old pagan Babylonian priesthood status adopted by the Roman Empire and carried to the Roman Church, the same goes for the nuns which are the 'Vestal Virgins" from the most important goddess of Rome, named Vesta. The Roman Empired died out, but the religious system did not, it went through a metamorphosis or assimulated into Christianity for its survival.

Name: fabulous1 • Date: 05/01/07 18:27

A: Abigail
I agree with you. finding jesus married does not compromise his religious importance.
Finally a place where normal people post. Have you guys checked out some of the other boards here?

Name: Nate • Date: 05/21/07 4:07

A: There is indeed significant NT evidence that Jesus was married. The term “rabboni” is the diminutive form of "rabbi." Rabboni was an intimate term of endearment that only the wife of a rabbi would use in addressing a rabbi. Mary Magdalene addressed Jesus as "rabboni" in the Gospel of John, in the scene in the Garden of Gethsemane. Also, when Jesus said to Mary in the Garden of Gethsemane “Touch me not” the Koine Greek word for “touch” is “hapto” and it means “ignite a fire” in a number of its NT usages. (Luke 8:16, 11:33, 15:8, Acts 28:2) Is this a reference to igniting the fires of sexual desire through touch? It’s certainly possible.

The behavior of Jesus and his mother Maria at the wedding feast in Cana of Galilee makes no sense at all unless it was his wedding. Wedding guests did not concern themselves with whether or not the wine had run out. Only the mother of the groom would assume such duties. Note also that the name of the groom is not given in the story of the wedding in Cana. However, Jesus is prominently displayed, and when the Master of Ceremonies thanks the groom for the excellent wine he addresses his comment to Jesus!

Furthermore, Jesus is again and again addressed as “Rabbi” in the gospels and nowhere is there any indication this was a mere “honorific.” I have consulted by email and by phone with Jewish rabbis and have been told there was no such thing as an honorary rabbi. Mainstream Christians try to turn the fact that Jesus was a rabbi into a mere “honorific” because ALL RABBIS WERE REQUIRED TO BE MARRIED MEN! Not merely “expected” to be married men but REQUIRED. So, anyone you hear droning and intoning “There is no evidence in the New Testament that Jesus was married” is just plain ignorant or lying.

Nate

Name: boss lady v • Date: 08/08/07 16:06

A: i think that sometimes people of faith tend to live a life of celebasy because that is the proper way do to the bible...

i personally think that in the case of Jesus havent been married and most likely to have been in a fisical relation they might question the one thing that i still to this day do!!!

what is being humanly as posible in the eyes of our lord if not being hable to love not only spiritualy but in a humananity point of view..

ever since this discovery i have had a gap in my faith and i always said if we as god intended us to be do the things we do i personaly love the idea that god send jesus to be not only in the image that we are but in every aspect of the word human...

i might be blabering to many but i think that if a priest thinks or feels offended by the fact of that jesus might or might not have been celebate i think is silly i think that he was ment to lead this great masterpiece that our father created and show all of us what true unity stands for not only outside with followers of his word but to show us what i think is just as important. i belief he did have a family just like we all were ment to and that makes me feel bleesed and marveled...

i dont think we should be stressing over this issue i think we should be learning more about the fact that he probably in my belief was a holy and extraordinary human being a true and one of a kind king of kings and by i personally knowing that he might have had a family to me its an added bonus....

Name: Roland369 • Date: 07/01/08 1:27

A: The fact that he was married and had a son does not detract from his message. It is his message that is important. The Sermon on the Mount says it all. If more Christians followed these teachings, the world would be a better place. Instead, they pick and choose what they feel suits their values at the time, and justifies their actions, even if those actions go against the very teachings of the one they say they believe in. The fact that his soul rose spiritually into heaven, and that he has become an intermediary between God and humans, should be enough for all Christians.

It would have been a disgrace for a rabbi to be so close to one such as Mary, and not to be married to her. She, at the very least would have been driven away or possibly even stoned to death. As for Jesus, he was expected to marry by a certain age in Jewish tradition, and it was more common than not that a rabbi be married.

Name: Ixkin • Date: 07/04/08 12:51

A: The Roman Catholic church doesn't want priest to marry because it doesn't want heirs other than the church. The priests have been convinced, through the centuries, by the church, that Jesus was celibate and so should they be celibate, when in actuality, Jesus was not celibate. The church only used the Jesus celibacy myth to convince the priests for the personal gain of the church.

What must the priests think, you ask? If I were the priests, I would open my eyes and mind and look for the truth beyond the doctrine that the church is teaching.

Name: sam_torrance1990 • Date: 09/03/08 5:57

A: "No one cared that he died without descendants, that his life was cut short in midstream." - Isaiah 53v8

Name: Judith • Date: 10/07/08 18:27

A: Early Priest did have wives, Greek Orthodox are and older order that Catholic and they still marry, Jewish Rabbi marry, I think Sufi might also marry. I suppose in those earliest times it was an option. With that said, the King who would carry on a linage would marry, even if he was a high priest. Early Catholic marred but that changed when the Papacy became to family oriented and a few family's got filthy rich off that inner circle. There was even a Female Pope, who only became exposed when she gave birth. Fun ! Look up the La Popessa

Name: iviliamu • Date: 11/19/08 5:58

A: I only came across the bible as Mary M is Jesus's lover but He not married. Jesus said "this woman loves me more than you love me" The bible says 'God turned into a Man' meaning Jesus is fully Man not Man and God and Jesus said "No one is good but only the father" so Jesus is man too just you and I. Adam and Eve and Jesus and Mary M. I would say Jesus is a Father but not Husband as he left his blood and body with Mary M the truth meaning of Passover pass over to Mary M, the second coming.

Name: lds • Date: 02/28/09 15:00

A: Families Are Forever

David B. Haight

Do you remember the phrase ‘until death do you part’ being used when you were married? Well We can be married by one having the priesthood authority to bind in heaven as that marriage performed here on earth.This is the power & authority given to peter by Jesus. If adam and eve where married in the garden of edan! And by whom! By god.Then god must have set president or format of how things should be.This means and common sence tells us as god is so man may become.Then god the father and his only begotten son have to have eternal companions RIGHT! or in other words they have wifes.Then
everyone has to be married onorder to reach the highest degree of glory in gods kingdom.t is apparent that if God rewards everyone according to the deeds done in the body, the term heaven as intended for man’s eternal home must include more kingdoms than one. In speaking of man in his resurrected state, Paul tells of glories like the sun, the moon, and the stars (1 Cor. 15: 39-41). He also speaks of the “third heaven” (2 Cor. 12: 2). Jesus spoke of “many mansions” or kingdoms (John 14: 2).
In the celestial glory there are three three heavens or degrees;
2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];
3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.
4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.
These are known as the celestial, terrestrial, and telestial kingdoms, of which the sun, moon, and stars are spoken of as being typical.

NOW talking about the so called priest that are not married they are a little misguided in there teachings.Sadly for them God has said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
Hope this is helpful.

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