Name:Red •
Title: I guess the Titanic discovery is just a lie too •
Date posted: 04/18/07 9:06
Q: No one ever believed then that the ship would be seen again. It was gone forever where no man could go.
BUT Robert Ballard(yes that evil scientist) Discovered it. And He also discovered that it was NOT WHERE THEY ORIGINALLY SAID IT WAS THE NIGHT IT SUNK!!. Actually 13 miles off. Also he discovered it WAS NOT RIPPED OPEN FOR 300 FOOT!. Actually plates buckled causing Rivets to pop.
Also he discovered that it BROKE IN TWO! and was not sitting upright and whole like so long believed.
He even had Hull steel tested to test a theory that the Ship was UNSINKIBLE. Nope. It Wasnt.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 04/18/07 14:54
A: Thre is nothing like evidence to dispell a myth.
Name:R. Kirk Kilpatrick •
Date: 04/18/07 15:55
A: Red... Panluna... The "lost Tomb" theory is not about science. It is about bad science and fictional documentaries with an agenda. Archeoporn was a generous assessment in my opinion.
1) DNA experts sing different tune from "documentary"...
2) Inscription about "Mariamne" is actually Mariamme and Mara (Martha) two names written at two different times in two different scripts for the burial of.. yep you guessed it.... two different people...
3) Statistician backing away quickly as he discovers taht the "facts" given to him as assumptions are not facts at all...
4) Tabor's only support for his connection between Mariamne and Mary Magdalene crumbles (Bovan disclaimer)...
5) Other scholars who were USED in the film told them that they were on the wrong track based on many factors...
6) Minus Tabor, the "DNA analysis" and the Statistician there is no scientific or scholarly support...
Hmmm... DNA support gone... Key inscription misread... Statistician changing statements adding room to place blame on those who brought him the assumptions used in his equations... Literary evidence for Magdalene claim evaporates...
But those who want to believe in the "Lost Tomb of Jesus" will not give it up. Faith in poorly done work based on faulty assumptions that were based on conspiracy theory and DanBrownesque fictional foundations will not be discouraged. That's what I call blind faith.
Name:Diego •
Date: 04/18/07 16:09
A: In response to R. Kirk Kilpatrick, even if the inscription says to different names on the Mariamne ossuary. Then when the DNA experts done the test on the bone fragments and residue found in it, why did they not find 2 different DNA in that ossuary? Could it ,maybe, be only one person in it? Maybe. But thats just a question. Besides the creators are not forcing anyone to believe this is the actual tomb of Jesus.
Name:OneGod •
Date: 04/18/07 16:53
A: Also all of he refutes Kilpatrick lists have been...you guessed it refuted. Nearly all of the scholars quoted as "backing away" say they have been misquoted and stand by their original assertions.
Name:betty47 •
Date: 04/18/07 17:28
A: Exactly! No one is backing away from this and more tests have yet to be run. What's so bad about the Jesus tomb anyway? It potentially shows that Jesus existed. It's great. There is no reason to be afraid of the truth unless you can't accept change. It seems to me Christians are afraid that it will kill Christianity, but it probably won't do that. I don't hear Christians saying in mass that they won't believe in Jesus because of this, and we may learn more about Jesus. In fact, at this point, it's very hard to believe that it's not the Jesus' tomb given the location, the names found on the coffins, the symbols above the tomb, the patina tests, etc.
The issue is that some time after Christ died Christianity went astray. Jesus' message was twisted and molded for the political purposes of the Roman Empire and others. Early teachings were burnt or lost. Christianity is still being twisted today. If we can get back to the original message of Jesus, the Jew, the Rabbi, or whatever people want to say his true message was, maybe the world will be better off anyway.
Most people who've read my posts know by now that I'm a Catholic. I was a Sunday school teacher and a missionary in my earlier years. But I'm more tolerant now. Did Jesus intend for the Catholic or Protestant movements to develop as they did? I now am willing to state, I have strong doubts about that. Perhaps the Unitarians, Jews for Jesus, Reform Jews, Progressive Jews, Gnostics or similar type of teachings are more in touch with what Jesus was trying to say. I think that's the real fear of the born again Christains who rant on this site that the tomb couldn't be real. They are afraid of finding the real Jesus, and finding out that they may have to change a few things in the Christian faith. Who knows? Jesus lived in Israel. Israel means "one who struggles with God", meaning one who tries to figure out the meaning of what God is. I think this tomb discovery fits in perfectly with that idea., and I think Jesus is looking down and smiling at all of this. Discussions of the concept of God is 100 times better then going to violent movies or playing violent video games that so many people are involved with these days. So this discovery and these discussions are great in my view.
Name:R. Kirk Kilpatrick •
Date: 04/18/07 18:23
A: Diego,
See Kloner's report... there were 37 bodies buried in that tomb. An average of 1.7 bodies' remains found in each ossuary. Please tell me how that does not call into question any DNA work.
"OneGod"... keep the faith in Simcha... He seems like a nice guy, but that would be blind faith in my opinion. My list above has not been refuted as you wrote.
Name:Elizabeth •
Date: 04/18/07 21:09
A: Dear Betty47,
"There is no reason to be afraid of the truth unless you can't accept change."
But that works both ways. The problem for some- is that Jesus was more than a Jew or a Rabbi. He is one with the God of Abraham. It is true.
I am not the only one who has seen him during a near-death experience- as God. There is no doubt there is more to know. However, that is not
one of them- for many.
A Jewish woman came to speak in our city concerning her near-death experience. Her experience is publicly documented.
She spoke of seeing God in Heaven. Years later, I listened while she was being interviewed on Israeli radio. The journalist asked her if God was Jesus. There was "dead air" for awhile as the journalist filled in the blanks. I don't know what she ended up saying, since I stopped listening.
I couldn't help but remember when she had spoken in our city. I confessed that I too had had a near-death experience. Afterwards, I was able to speak with her alone for a few minutes. She appeared afraid then she pulled me aside and whispered in my ear. She said that God looked like Jesus, the depicted one over time. I told her not to worry- that He loved her as she was. A young Jewish boy, also document, had a near-death experience where he saw God as Jesus, as well. There is no documented, named figure seen more than Jesus during a near-death experience.
Jesus was a Jew. But he also was the incarnation of God, himself, in human flesh. He was the Messiah. He was not accepted because we continue to evaluate everything by the shortcomings of our human flesh. It makes us feel better when we can tear it down into human logic by human rules. The "elephant in the room" is that Jesus, The Messiah, never came to save human flesh- he came to save our souls. It is what most do not understand- even to this day as some wait for our physical flesh to be lifted in the air and catapulted to Heaven. I don't think much has changed and probably most wouldn't recognize him even today. God is quite intelligent- and has been there, done that. And it is because of that "elephant in the room" that most do not understand the book of Revelation. The God of Abraham had made a covenant with Abram and his descendants of the 12 tribes. And He kept his promise. In Heaven, itself, no other nationality holds higher, majority positions. The irony of it.
If one wants to know who Jesus was and what did he say- read the four
Gospels of the NT. It is the truth.
Blessings, ED
Name:OneGod •
Date: 04/19/07 9:38
A: @ Kilpatrick
Sorry but none of the scholars used in the film have backtracked. Not one. You have been misinfrormed. OK the statistician changed his wording but not the results. I know what he means by "surprising cluster of names". I agree that his changes in wording are more accurate but he's saying the same thing.
Name:R. Kirk Kilpatrick •
Date: 04/20/07 14:48
A: OneGod...
Here are some statements from the DNA specialists... so far as other scholars USED in the documentary... that is just what happened in my opinion. They were used. They were not allowed on the documentary (Cross and others) to give their opinion of the assortment of evidence for the tomb. They were USED in their area of expertise, but their judgment on the whole was not allowed. So far as the statitician, he is not an expert in the field of archaeology or biblical studies.
Regarding the DNA “evidence”:
Dr. Carney Matheson, Lakehead University Paleo-DNA Laboratory, the one who did the DNA testing for the filmmakers:
The only conclusions we made was that these two sets [from the “Yeshua” and “Mariamne” ossuaries] were not maternally related. To me it sounds like absolutely nothing.
Elsewhere, Matheson noted that possible relationships (which DNA cannot establish) could be:
…father and daughter, paternal cousins, half brother and sister (sharing the same father) or simply unrelated individuals. The media does what they want.
And elsewhere:
There is a statement in the film that has been taken out of context. While marriage is a possibility, other relationships like father and daughter, paternal cousins, sister-in-law or indeed two unrelated individuals [are also possible]…
Regarding the tomb in general:
Prof. Amos Kloner, Israeli archeologist who oversaw the original discovery of the ossuaries:
It makes a great story for a TV film. But it’s completely impossible. It’s nonsense.
Dr. Jodi Magness, Department of Religious Studies, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill:
The entire way this has been done has been an injustice to the entire discipline [of archaelogy] and also to the public.
Dr. William Dever, professor emeritus, University of Arizona:
The fact that it’s been ignored [since 1980] tells you something. It would be amusing if it didn’t mislead so many people.
Elsewhere:
It’s a publicity stunt, and it will make these guys very rich, and it will upset millions of innocent people because they don’t know enough to separate fact from fiction.
Dr. Leen Ritmeyer, biblical archeologist, Associate Professor at the College of Archaeology & Biblical History, TSW University:
It would have to be an archaeologist’s worst nightmare. Imagine — your careful academic work, as was Amos Kloner’s supervision of the tomb’s excavation for the IAA (Israel Antiquities Authority) in 1980 — hijacked by Hollywood. And that to produce a sensationalist documentary…. It is possibly the most cynical claim yet to be made in the field of Biblical Archaeology and only serves to give the subject a bad name.
Dr. Aren Maeir, Director of the Tell es-Safi/Gath Archeological Project and a lecturer at the Martin (Szusz) Department of Land of Israel Studies at Bar Ilan University:
Since, along with, most probably, the majority of archaeologists who deal with the ancient Levant, I have been asked about the question of the supposed tomb of Jesus and his family …, I thought that I should join the very clear message of the responsible archaeological community and say — this is HOGWASH!! (excuse my French!).
Dr. Laurence Stager, Professor of the Archeology of Israel at Harvard University:
From what I know about it at this moment, it sounds rather preposterous.
David Mevorah, Curator of the Israel Museum:
[Any theory that] this tomb was a tomb of the family of Jesus is a farfetched suggestion, and we need to be very careful with that.
Prof. L. Michael White, Director of the Institute for the Study of Antiquity and Christian Origins, Univeristy of Texas:
This is not archeologically sound. This is fanfare.
According to the Washington Post:
Leading archaeologists in Israel and the United States have denounced the purported discovery of the tomb of Jesus as a publicity stunt.
Dr. Dan Bahat, Israeli archeologist currently with the University of Toronto:
Yeshua was such a popular name during the Second Temple Period. The fact that you have such similar names is due to the fact that these were the prevalent names during that time.
David Mevorah, curator of the Israel Museum:
[The chances this is real] are more than remote. They are closer to fantasy. … [Their statistics are] a good trick. … Statistics can bring empires down or build them up. But I wouldn’t build a theory of the most important person of the first century on statistics.”
Dr. Tal Ilan, scholar who compiled the Lexicon of Jewish Names that was essential to the statistical calculations put forward by the documentary:
I think it [the lexicon] was completely mishandled. I am angry.
Dr. Garret G. Fagan, Professor of Classics at Penn State University:
They’re not scientists, but they need to dress themselves in the clothes of science to pass muster… Television is not in the business of education, even with the so-called educational channels like Discovery. “Ultimately, they’re in the business of making money. … By the time the rebuttals come out, the mass media would have moved on to the next sensation and people will have this vague notion that they have found the tomb of Jesus.
It takes rare skill and patience to debunk greedy marketers. You are saving the innocent and nothing could be more Christian, in my estimate.
Simcha's recent rebuttals are well worked out. But he looks so tired. To me, if he were totally on the side of right, he would have more energy. He sign is of the frantic: I think he believes his own fantastic.
Poor man, please watch for his crash, then try to forgive him, it's not entirely a lie.
