Name:Jesus •
Title: If Jesus died on earth. •
Date posted: 02/27/07 17:09
Q: If Jesus died a on earth and as a normal human and was not physically raised with a body left here then just how reliable are the gospels. The bible says his body was taken to heaven and he overcame death yet here is a body believed to be the body of Christ just buried in much the same way as any other burial. Makes me ponder about how reliable the scriptures are.
Name:Tara •
Date: 02/27/07 17:22
A: The scriptures still hold alot of truth, but there is evidence that they have been altered.
What has happened over time is we have been influenced to believe interpretations that would leave us powerless, with out control and depending on a higher system of leaders. Many people talk about how the politicians lie to the public to get them to do what they want. Well, back then the politicians and the law makers were the people that controled the scriptures. There was even a time when people weren't even aloud to own a bible.
Jesus was against the system, at the time he said I am a man son of god and refered to everyone as his brothers and sisters. He was saying we are like him, and we can do all of the amazing things that he did. Jesus as man is so powerful it scares people because it shows that we can all acheive individual greatness with out relying on the "systems telling us what to do"
Jesus cam as a man and ascended as a spirit and physically demonstrated his greatness, and our potential for greatness.
Name:Heather •
Date: 02/27/07 17:26
A: If the Jesus tomb has been found, then that's great news for Christians. There's physical proof that Jesus existed and that will support the credibility of the Gospels. It means that information in the Bible is not made up, and that these events actually took place.
Name:Peas •
Date: 02/27/07 17:31
A: The idea that Jesus went to heaven in bodily form isn't actually written in the bible.
"16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God."
"24:51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven."
No christian denies that when they die they go to heaven and leave their bodies on earth. So surely, it would be the same for jesus? His soul went to heaven, but he left his body?
Name:mommyof2 •
Date: 02/27/07 17:51
A: How closely do you read the scriptures and do you study the bible?
Name:mommyof2 •
Date: 02/27/07 17:54
A: You know I have been baffled by this since watching the news, cause I am a Christian, but Peas, I totally agree with you, this will be all the proof people need, but also, I do not believe Jesus was married or fathered a son. So that still makes me wonder,
Name:Tara •
Date: 02/27/07 18:05
A: Mommyof 2 if you read the site and look at it through historical relevance and place Jesus in his city in his time, it would almost be like a sin for him not to have at least tried to be a parent.
Even the bible states to be fruitful!
Name:Wolter •
Date: 02/27/07 19:32
A: Not only is Jesus sinless, Jesus didn't come to bear fruit. He came as a sacrifice.
Name:Tara •
Date: 02/27/07 20:53
A: As a sacrafice please expand on the theory that supports this as making sense, yes he was sacraficed, and it was because he was trying to save us, but to say he came as a sacrafice is to say he was set-up, and that there was no hope to save us, that he was born into this worls already defeated. Does this sound better to you?
Is this how you see God?
Name:Wolter •
Date: 02/27/07 21:01
A: This is How God reveals himself. Jesus wasn't "set-up" from the Father. Being God, he already knew this. He "volunteered" and sacrificed himself.
Is this how you Not see God?
Name:ranthi •
Date: 02/27/07 21:11
A: History is written according to the audience for which it was intended with enough room for interpration and plausible deniability. In my opinion, the bible wasnt meant for any one person alone to interpret...hence that is why we have 6 trillion churches with just as many priests interpreting it for us. The bible has been picked apart more than Nostradamus' predictions. Not asking you to accept this but I highly..HIGHLY doubt that EVERY line in the bible was meant as a morality checkpoint..if you will..for us to be taught and to live by but that is what the church means for us to believe. SO..in response to your question. Even though the bible wasnt really meant for our own interpretation, you can still read and judge for yourself. Then..your interpretation of the bible and its teachings can, if you chose, account for the body..the "physical" body of jesus being found on earth as well as a child (presumably his) being found alongside.
I am not a religious person..I am a person of logic..facts..common sense. and my common sense tells me that yes..maybe the producers of this film are out for some cash..and thats fine. But I am glad to see someone finally challenging the values of the once maybe well meaning...but now utterly corrupt..church system. Atleast they wont get burned at the stake....
Name:Ralph Warner •
Date: 02/27/07 23:20
A: That's a pretty big 'If' -- at this point I'll stick with the reliability of the Scriptures over the reliability of a documentary by James Cameron. Have you read "Evidence That Demands A Verdict' by Josh McDowell? I became a Christian a long time ago because of a conviction that I needed to & because of what I perceived as prophecy coming to pass. Guess what? Read your Bible & pray about it. Are end-times prophecies happening or not? 'DNA evidence' proves that the bodies date from New Testament times. Big deal. A lot of people died back then. In searching the internet I've found so-called proof that Jesus died in India or Japan, complete with photos. This makes for interesting discussion; however, I'm still keeping my eyes on what's happening in the Mid-East.
Name:factfinding •
Date: 02/28/07 1:27
A: If you cannot believe the eyewitness accounts by the Apostles and others at the time, then your faith in the scriptures is indeed tenuous. Ask yourself this... what profit would the Apostles in the New Testament gospels have in altering the truth?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cm1Z2-ujztE
Name:tricker •
Date: 02/28/07 2:30
A: Jesus,
Jesus, The Christ, is man and God. He did indeed die, and He did indeed arise from the dead, and ascended into Heaven, and is coming back the same way as He left. Who believes the remains to be Jesus Christ? I dare say , not many. I don't believe the people making this movie believe it. I think they just want you to. Or maybe they don't care if anybody does, as long as they have their 15 minutes of fame and the money that goes along with it. I think they'll end up with egg on their faces, and totally lose all credibility. So why ponder the reliability of the scriptures because of this. Wait and see, darlin'.
Tricker
Name:IWantTheTruth •
Date: 02/28/07 2:42
A: The thing about the bible is exactly this :
it was written and rewritten and translated and retranslated by MAN, and MAN is a creature of error. If Jesus would have written this, there would be no doubts. everything would line up perfectly. However, i believe that whatever is found by this discovery should not not not hinder the strength in our faith.
i think it is important that we notice the look of this website. the book that was written and released. all of the media that we are going to see about this in the future. and most of all, the fact that the director of this documentary is indeed james cameron, the same director of the terminator and titanic. Nothing against him, but it just makes me skeptical about the goals of this film.
Frankly, I am scared to see how this all turns out. Im scared that no one but those who were closely involved in the discovery of this tomb will know the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
Make no mistake, this documentary will come to us, the viewers, wrapped up, tied with a bow, and sprinkled with a little sugar.
can i get some feedback? I'm just trying to figure this out like all of you.
-thanks-
Name:thelord3003 •
Date: 02/28/07 5:24
A: Since I saw the Passion of the Christ I became a different person, seen the film and reading the gospels helped me to be a better man and to understand who was Jesus and his role in our lives. I don't think that God would allow humanity to be fool for 2000 years, us believing in something for that long and the truth to be another. I don't think the apostles want it us to have a hard time figuring things out. The Bible is not a game of Clue. I know it was translated by the hand of man but God is real and all love.
Maybe someone back in the first century decide it to place those tombs and name the dead....Jesus, Maria, Mariamne, Matthew and Judas...and the dead were common people. Is like if now someone dies and get buried and some lunatic carves the tombstone "Ricky Martin", then someone discover the tomb and thinks is the tomb of Ricky Martin and the dead inside was a common man named George. How can DNA test prove that is Ricky Martin? Same with this tombs found in Jerusalem.
Name:myrtis_k •
Date: 02/28/07 6:18
A: Wake up, people. We are all born free. And we are free to believe. Stop searching for clogs. If you don`t want to believe, you simply will not. All this hysteria with Jesus and His mortal remains, or His wife, Mary of Magdala, is beginning to be a cheap show. Let me ask you a common sense question: what if Jesus was married? How could this thing alter His message? Would this marriage really turn Him into the bad guy? It is just a matter of dogma, not a matter of faith. As long as we can see the message and not the interpretations of men, I see no problem in finding remains of Jesus or proofs of His marriage to Mariamne. This virginity thing is a problem of dogma. Remember St. Augustin. Believing, faith and the Christian values have nothing to do with all this circus.
Mortal remains are not a danger. Those bones can`t be proven to belong to any of the claimed. Yes, one can get a family relationship through DNA analysis, but can one be 100% sure about their identity? Yet, let`s say the interpretation of this archaeological facts is correct. I think this would only strenghten the biblical story of the Ressurection. You see His bones, you can find out the age when He died, and you will discover He had beaten death. What more could you want?
We should all learn there are many ways of seing the truth, as there are many kinds of truths. There will always be a truth for mind and a truth for soul. Believing is finding the way to match these truths.
Name:Merovingian •
Date: 02/28/07 7:09
A: Well...the movie is made by jew...so its normal...they cannot accept that they have killed the son of God:).
The very christian thing is the ressurection...the New Man....if there is no ressurection all is for nothing. So its normal that many people are trying to discover the tomb of Christ.
The christianity is not about being moral, do this, don't do that...its not about all this shit, its about the New Man...transformation....
This only matters...
so thats why its impossible to be found his tomb...just because his body is not dead:). Of course there are a lot of thombs...the names are common for this period and it can be made and by the enemies of the christian....just make a thomb, write the names and after years everyone will say ...ooo, we found the tomb of Jesus..
Nice day guys:)
.
Name:Merovingian •
Date: 02/28/07 7:34
A: Peas says:
"No christian denies that when they die they go to heaven and leave their bodies on earth. So surely, it would be the same for jesus? His soul went to heaven, but he left his body? "
Well this is very unthorough thaout and understanding about christianity...
(Please excuse me for my english...I am not so good in it)
Many people think that somehow christianity denies the body...but as I said before...its all about the New Man...with a body...not only soul...or spirit....all the 3 components of the man - spirit soul and body.
Also when he ressurected he met many times his people...they even touched his scars...He could go through locked doors...he could go anywhere...Like he breaked the reality and our dimension.
And this is the test...they saw their God being tortured, beaten and killed like a criminal...and they believed that He would become king or smth.
But this wasn't His point. His point was the New Being. So thats why his dudes after that were making miracles...the early christian church was very powerful...of course if u wanna kill something, just make it legal. And after that the christianity was only about good people (I hate good people), some moral frames, ....but not the real concept...
If you think the Ressurection is impossible thing...just read some quantum physics...;)
(again sorry for my english....)
Name:Peas •
Date: 02/28/07 11:42
A: Merovingian,
I was not talking about resserection. I was talking about ascention into heaven. I asked a question. I never made a statement. I asked, and will ask again, if you are a christian, do you believe that your body follows you into heaven? If you believe that, there are billions of christian graves world wide that would dispute that claim. I then asked, as the bible nor the scriptures (which I have studied) claim that jesus' physical body went ot heaven, is it possible that his body was left on earth but his remains hidden? I challange you to prove me wrong with quotes from the bible or christian scriptures that proove his physical body went to heaven.
Name:Merovingian •
Date: 02/28/07 14:30
A: Peas,
no He went there with His physical body:)
This is the meaning that He said to them I will destroy this temple, and I will rebuild it for 3 days...and its said that He means His body. If there is no physical ressurection, there is no point..He won't be different from all the other prophets which were killed before him.
Name:Merovingian •
Date: 02/28/07 14:51
A: the gospel according to
ST. JOHN
Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, 16
and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. Jesus 17
saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my
Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend
unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your
God.
and also when He met them after the RESURRECTION:... its from Luke's Gospel:
Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in
39 your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself:
handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones,
40 as ye see me have. And when he had thus spoken, he shewed
v.31 vanished...: or, ceased to be seen of them.
1717 st. luke 24. 41–53
them his hands and his feet.
and from the Acts:
And when he had spoken
these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a
10 cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked
stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood
11 by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee,
why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which
is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner
12 as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Well as we see...not his spirit, but and His body:) and what is the point to be resurrected and to leave your body on earth?!?
Byeee see yaaa, gotta work...
Name:Nate Spain •
Date: 02/28/07 15:36
A: Does proof matter? Yes. Because Christians are asking people to believe that:
1. A human being died
2. After dying, he descended into hell [why, I have NO idea]
3. On the third day, he "rose from the dead."
4. After rising from the deady, he walked around. He got hungry and ATE FOOD (I have yet to understand why dead people need to eat.)
5. After "rising," he walked around, HIDING FROM THE AUTHORITIES, in disguise. Why? Why would "God" need to hide from the authorities?
6. He then bodily rose up in the sky to some place called heaven.
I mean...PLEASE! For what reason should such things be believed? People, when they die, DO NOT COME BACK. They don't eat food after dying. They're dead.
If you wish to read about a theory that has interesting and strong evidence that points to a post-crucifixion life of Jesus (meaning that he simply SURVIVED the crucifixion, and never did die), then please read the material at The Tomb of Jesus Christ Website at www.tombofjesus.com
If you foget the address, simply type, "Tomb of Jesus" into any search engine, and it will be the first return.
Regards,
Nate
Name:Merovingian •
Date: 02/28/07 16:08
A: Cool
"1. A human being died
2. After dying, he descended into hell [why, I have NO idea]
3. On the third day, he "rose from the dead."
4. After rising from the deady, he walked around. He got hungry and ATE FOOD (I have yet to understand why dead people need to eat.)
5. After "rising," he walked around, HIDING FROM THE AUTHORITIES, in disguise. Why? Why would "God" need to hide from the authorities?
6. He then bodily rose up in the sky to some place called heaven."
Before asking these questions, first see what is all about christianity...read some more about what christians believe, because in this way we cannot discuss these things.
"If you wish to read about a theory that has interesting and strong evidence that points to a post-crucifixion life of Jesus (meaning that he simply SURVIVED the crucifixion, and never did die), then please read the material at The Tomb of Jesus Christ Website at www.tombofjesus.com"
Well I don't see these "strong" evidences. There is no way to find out who is burried in this thomb.Also the DNA thing is funny, cuz they don't have smth to compare the DNA found in the bones. If there is DNA there...cuz I know its really hard to take out the DNA from such old bones...
Well all these speculation I've read long before this Da Vinci thing come around. Nothing new in fact:).
Name:Nate Spain •
Date: 02/28/07 16:57
A: Well, Merovingian, I do hope that you have truly taken the time to thorougly read the material at the TOJ site, as well as the relevant books that have covered the theory of Jesus in India.
Any of the evidence in any of these theories is CIRCUMSTANTIAL. I invite anyone to, for themselves, study all of the theories.
What I found, personally, is that the accumulation of circumstantial evidence in the Jesus-in-India theory is strong. It is not just one piece of evidence.
Circumstantial evidence can often be stronger than the smoking gun. I like to give the example: Guy announces, at a bar, to 45 people that, "I'm gonna kill my wife on June 2nd, 1984, with my 45 automatic. Then I'm gonna fly to the Michael Jordan Hotel in France."
On June 1st, he purchases a 45 automatic from Pete's gun shop. On June 2nd, her body is found--with the 45 automatic next to it. But! There are NO finger prints. The detectives trace the gun to the gun store, and discovered that he purchased it.
They discover 45 witnesses who ALL heard him say he was gonna kill his wife. They discover that he bought a airplane ticket for France. Then, they discover him in France, at the Michael Jordan hotel.
But! No finger prints. What do you think will happen? He's going to the slammer, despite there being no fingerprints, and no "real" evidence that he killed his wife. But the circumstantial evidence--all the bits and pieces that point TO the crime are even stronger than the smoking gun, because the smoking gun has no prints on it, but the other evidence is really strong.
I don't want to repeat all those ancient and other original-language documents I mentioned in another thread. But there are AT LEAST 15 of them (Wajees-ut-Tawarikh, Bhavisha Mahapurana,, the Acta Thomae (Christian document, banned by the Church), the Tarikh-i-Kabir, etc., etc.
There is the fact that that "Prince and Prophet," as he is recorded to have been, came to Kashmir, from the Holy Land, 1900 years ago--the same time Jesus was in the Holy Land.
There is the fact that he SAID that he was a Prophet, sent to the Children of Israel.
There is the fact that his casket, underneat that building, faces the direction that Jews buried their dead. There used to be an aperture (hole) in the ground, at the Roza Bal, where you could see that underground casket.
This Prince and Prophet spoke, using the same parables (such as the parable of the Sower) that Jesus used.
Inside the Rauza Bal building, there is a stone carving of the feet of this Prince and Prophet. That carving has very clear wound marks displayed. Now, WHO, 2000 years ago--who taught in parables, was a Jew, and had wounds in his feet--could that have been?
There is the oral tradition of the people, particularly the older Kashmiris who have not been impacted by radical sunni Muslim doctrines [long story], that says that the occupant of that tomb is, "Isa." Back around the turn of the century (1900), if you stopped somebody in the street and said, "Who's tomb is this," they would very matter-of-factly say, "Hazrat Isa" (Jesus). It was not even an issue. Since Christianity had no impact there, it was no big deal, to the local people, that Isa was buried there.
There is the written recording, I think by Sir Francis Younghusband, as I recall, in which it is noted that, on the monument that was once called the Takhat Sulaiman monument, there was once the inscription that read, concerning Yuz Asaf: "And he is Jesus, Prophet of the Children of Israel." That monument also records the exact year that he arrived in Kashmir.
There is the meeting that someone who called himself "Isa Masih" (Jesus, Messiah) had with King Shalivahana, in the mountains of Srinagar. This verbal exchange between Jesus and King Shalivahana is recorded in the Bhavishya Mahapurana, a Hindu document, and you can see a long translation of that in the book, Saving the Savior, and I think it's still at The Tomb of Jesus Christ Website.
There is other evidence. So, what you have is an accumulation of both oral and documented circumstantial evidence, that, when put together, points to ONE conclusion: Jesus travelled to Kashmir, after surviving the crucifixion, lived a normal life, married, had children, and died at a ripe old age, according to the Kashmiri traditions.
No, no body has been dug up from that casket under the Rauza Bal. The sunni Muslims would not allow it anyway. They have become more fanatic about that tomb, because its existence threatens their doctrines. Fact. Why? Because, like Christians, sunni fundamentalists believe that Jesus is coming back, in the latter days, accompanied by a man named Imam Mahdi. Together, they will both innundate the world with blood, for the purpose of establishing Islam as the final world religion.
In fact, over the last few years, the sunnis in Kashmir have become so frightened about the Rauza Bal tomb that they have put a sign at the entrance that reads something like, "Books about this tomb are false," or something like that. I saw a photograph that someone sent me via email, months ago.
This sunni insanity might be ONE reason that European researchers, except for bold women like Suzanne Olsson, have been afraid to approach the tomb. To her credit, she went there fearlessly, and I think the 3rd edition of her book is coming out soon.
Regards,
Nate
Name:thelord3003 •
Date: 03/01/07 3:52
A: Jesus survived the crucifixion? Whoever wrote this is loco! Jesus is God....you...who writes such nonsense like this will remember this day! Nobody will find His remains cause there are none, this filmmakers are being fooled by someone's idea of a sick joke of writing those names on the tombs (long ago). We just need to look up in the sky and ask ourselves....what does my heart tells me? Remember, there is no greater love than to give His life for you and for me! +
Name:DSand •
Date: 03/01/07 4:30
A: If you believe Jesus to be a mortal man with no legitimate divinity, then pick Him apart, call Him a liar, a fraud, a lunatic, whose bones are buried where these researchers say they lie. Why does it matter? If He is just a man, part of a religion that many pick a part with a fine tooth comb, then it's all just pointless, really.
However, if you have even the slightess belief that He is divine, sent from God, and part of Gods plan for mankind, then read your Bible. The Bible clearly tells us that what was seen was formed from what is not seen, and that without faith, it's impossible to please God. Why? Because it's no big thing to believe only what you can see - only what you can prove. They puzzling thing is why so many people put so much stock in their own opinion, with their limited perspective and finite grasp of time and eternity. Especially when todays scientific fact because tomorrows scientific failure. Wisdom is justified in time, and haven't we all seen one scientist "prove" something, then a few years later other scientist disprove the same thing? Why would put our trust there?
So you believe in God? Great. Then believe that maybe He knows what He is doing, He is in control, and He doesn't have to show it to you or prove it to you. In fact, if your faith is based on what you have seen alone, then the Bible (not me) would ask you to ponder if you have faith at all (because again, it's not faith if it's solely based on what is proven to you).
Hey, I'm not saying that anyone who has posted something on this board or who is questioning things doesn't have faith. It is a legitimate thing to ask what, or more importantly Who, is the substance of your beliefs. The Bible encourages you to seek out Truth.
Hey, If you want to believe in space monkeys who wear hula hoops, then go for it. Just know what you believe, why you believe, and trust that if you believe there is a God, and you know it's not you, then trust Him to be God without validating every little thing to you.
Name:Merovingian •
Date: 03/01/07 7:02
A: "There is the fact that that "Prince and Prophet," as he is recorded to have been, came to Kashmir, from the Holy Land, 1900 years ago--the same time Jesus was in the Holy Land.
There is the fact that he SAID that he was a Prophet, sent to the Children of Israel."
I've hear the theory about Jesus in India...and I dont think it's impossible, but all the Gospels, even the banned ones says that He is the son of God. So even the gnoistics believes in this. Only the muslims says He is a prophet...the jews (the judaist ones) even dont talk about Him....well maybe because of their guilty conscience;-)....
Anyway...He can go to India, Mexico, everywhere...but the point is that He was resurrected with a body.
"Inside the Rauza Bal building, there is a stone carving of the feet of this Prince and Prophet. That carving has very clear wound marks displayed. Now, WHO, 2000 years ago--who taught in parables, was a Jew, and had wounds in his feet--could that have been?"
Yes in tracia there is amulet of Orpheus shown as crucifixied...very interesting...but this shows no other thing, but that the Juses sacrifice effected many nations.........
:)
Name:SpiritWoman •
Date: 03/02/07 16:06
A: Greetings Jesus;
Please quote the scripture as to the tune of Bodily ressurection.
Peace
SW
Name:Chris •
Date: 03/02/07 17:40
A: It's amazing how quickly the change of ideas will come about - now we aren't worried about whether Yeshua actually ascended with His body, His Spirit definitely did, though.
I'm surprised anyone buys into something like this. If His body was hidden somewhere can you imagine the struggle that would have been gone through to do so? Do you really think they'd of buried the rest of His family in the same place and no one would find it for 2,000 years? Who was hiding it while waiting for family members to die?
And why, oh why would they have LABELED the ossuaries? Aren't we creating a cover-up? Guys it takes more faith to believe half of this stuff than it does to believe in Christ.
But if it's proof you want, the scriptures give it. Why has a book survived thousands of years while trying to be destroyed? Why is it constantly under attack?
And don't fall for the garbage that the Bible isn't reliable because of interpretation issues, scribal erros, etc. We have more manuscripts than you could have imagined just a hundred years ago and the errors practically non-existent. It doesn't take much research or much time to find out the TRUTH that what we have is indeed reliable.
Christians: Study your Bible! How dare you leave things up for interpretation! The Word tells you that only God can interpret scripture and that ALL scripture is inspired by God. That is, not just some of it, not just a particular section here and a particular section there. ALL of it!
The Bible is so detailed, so specific, so precise that it is impossible to screw with and it DOES NOT contradict itself. Anyone who truly studies it will have to concede that it was not written by man. It happens all the time.
It is not a make your own faith. It's yours for the taking.
Name:ollypop •
Date: 03/02/07 19:05
A: Chris,
If the Bible is so reliable why are there so many contradictions between the gospel writers.
1) The different geneaologies of Matthew and Luke?
2)The visit of the wise men in Matthew and the visit of shephards in Luke?
I give only two but as you must know there are others.
What of the Synods held under the Byzantine emperors?
Do you not believe some of these men had their own agendas?
Something to think about before condemning anyone interested in this find
Luke 7: 41-47
Name:Merovingian •
Date: 03/03/07 7:10
A: "And why, oh why would they have LABELED the ossuaries? Aren't we creating a cover-up? Guys it takes more faith to believe half of this stuff than it does to believe in Christ.
"
Very good point, Chris!!!:))
Name:wygantsh •
Date: 03/04/07 11:43
A: If we look at the Transfiguration, Ressurection, and Ascension ALL together we can readily see that the process of de-materializing the body into a 'glorified' body of light and then back into a physical body was something that occured on a continuum.
1. Jesus de-materialised his body and disappeared from physical sight when he was TRANSFIGURED before his arrest and execution.
2. Jesus then re-materialised his body and came down from Mt Tabor and told his disciples not to tell anyone what they saw until after he was killed and risen from the dead.
3. Jesus was executed and died from a spear thrust into his flank. Jesus's body was buried in a tomb. Jesus then de-materialised his body and re-materialised it into a NEW body which NO ONE recognized when they first saw him as is stated in the gospel when Mary Magdalene asked Jesus (who she thought was the gardiner) where he took the body of Jesus, and Jesus said MARY and she recognized him.
4. Jesus appeared and disappeared to his disciples family and friends and did ASCEND into heaven out of their sight, BUT he reappeared to SAUL, to MARY, to his JOHN, etc....
SO the big question now is how long did he hang around appearing and disappearing in a corpreal form and physical body? And did he die again and leave a body in a tomb? Or is the tomb that was found have contents of DNA not from a decomposing body but from something else physically left behind?
As to the money and means for a tomb, Jesus had wealthy friends and his father wasn't poor, a carpenter usually did fairly well .
Name:roy •
Date: 03/04/07 17:18
A: Referring your topic related to James Cameron’s new documentary about Jesus Christ. I describe my ideas as the following;
Jesus was a human being who was created resembling creation as Adam, made as God‘s speacial envoy and word. He was subject to death and resurrection as all other humans at the dooms day.[3:59]
He was not killed or crucified but the scenery was recepted as if he was crucified. In reality, he was never hanged, the person who hanged was resembled to him in the views of the enemy Israelites.[4:157,158]
He was not killed by enemies but survived till the natural death. [19:33]God has taken his life. They were not defeated by the enemies but on the contrary him and his supporter disciples and israelites defeated the enemies.[61:14]
These are the statements written 1430 years ago by Quran. It is believed by heart by billions of muslims, as a prerequisite to be accepted into Islam. Maybe out of bias, or fear of sameness they prefer to ignore what is claimed. It is surprising that modern world is barely aware of this fact or they blind their eyes with superstition. Christ, he disciples and his followers were also muslims who were ordered with salat (prayer) and zekat ( voluntary wealth distribution).
The views above is supported with the related verses of Quran as below. Some of the ideas has been tought by various western writers,which are noted as well.
You may further make your research in english Quran at the link below.
For example ; word of “Christ” I found this link: http://www.kuranmeali.com/arama.asp?kelim-e=Christ&meal=yusufali&sure=hepsi
word- of “Jesus” I found this link:
http://www.kuranmeali.com/arama.asp?ke-lime=jesus&meal=yusufali&sure=hepsi
Sura- - 4 Women (Al-Nesaa')
[4:157] And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - They slew him not nor crucified, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain,
[4:158] Instead, GOD raised him to Him; GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.
[4:159] Everyone among the people of the scripture was required to believe in him before his death. On the Day of Resurrection, he will be a witness against them.
[4:171] O people of the scripture, do not transgress the limits of your religion, and do not say about GOD except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was a messenger of GOD, and His word that He had sent to Mary, and a revelation from Him. Therefore, you shall believe in GOD and His messengers. You shall not say, "Trinity." You shall refrain from this for your own good. GOD is only one god. Be He glorified; He is much too glorious to have a son. To Him belongs everything in the heavens and everything on earth. GOD suffices as Lord and Master.
Sura - 19 Mary (Maryam)
[19:33] And peace be upon me the day I was born, the day I die, and the day I get resurrected."
[19:34] That was Jesus, the son of Mary, and this is the truth of this matter, about which they continue to doubt.
[19:35] It does not befit GOD that He begets a son, be He glorified. To have anything done, He simply says to it, "Be," and it is.
[19:36] He also proclaimed, "GOD is my Lord and your Lord; you shall worship Him alone. This is the right path."
*19:36 This is similar to the statement attributed to Jesus in the Gospel of John 20:17.
Sura - 5 The Feast (Al-Ma'edah)
[5:72] Pagans indeed are those who say that GOD is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah himself said, "O Children of Israel, you shall worship GOD; my Lord and your Lord." Anyone who sets up any idol beside GOD, GOD has forbidden Paradise for him, and his destiny is Hell. The wicked have no helpers.
*Look at the sameness of Kuran: Sura - 5 ( The Feast ) Al-Ma'edah and Bible Matta 7:21-23
*5:72-76 In John 20:17, we see that Jesus taught that he was neither God, nor the son of God. Many theologians have concluded, after careful research, that today's Christianity is not the same Christianity taught by Jesus. Two outstanding books on this subject are "The Myth of God Incarnate" (The Westminster Press, Philadelphia, 1977) and The "Mythmaker" (Harper & Row, New York, 1986). On the front jacket of "The Mythmaker" we read the following statement:
" ...Hyam Maccoby presents new arguments to support the view that Paul, not Jesus, was the founder of Christianity....it was Paul alone who created a new religion through his vision of Jesus as a divine Saviour who died to save humanity."
Sura - 3 The Amramites ( Ali-'Imran)
[3:55] Thus, GOD said, "O Jesus, I am terminating your life, raising you to Me, and ridding you of the disbelievers. I will exalt those who follow you above those who disbelieve, till the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is the ultimate destiny of all of you, then I will judge among you regarding your disputes.
[3:59] The example of Jesus, as far as GOD is concerned, is the same as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, "Be," and he was.
[3:60] This is the truth from your Lord; do not harbor any doubts.
Sura - 61 The Column (Al-Suff)
[61:6] Recall that Jesus, son of Mary, said, "O Children of Israel, I am GOD's messenger to you, confirming the Torah and bringing good news of a messenger to come after me whose name will be even more praised (Ahmad)." Then, when he showed them the clear proofs, they said, "This is profound magic."
*Sameness of Sura - 61 The Column (Al-Suff) and Bible İsiah 45:21,22
Psalm 99:9 Timothy 1:17 good news fro sneding another prophet called Ahmad(Hz Mohammad) or Pheraklid (praised)= Ahmad
[61:14] O you who believe, be GOD's supporters, like the disciples of Jesus, son of Mary. When he said to them, "Who are my supporters towards GOD," they said, "We are GOD's supporters." Thus, a group from the Children of Israel believed, and another group disbelieved. We helped those who believed against their enemy, until they won.
Sura - 3 The Amramites ( Ali-'Imran)
[3:51] "GOD is my Lord and your Lord; you shall worship Him alone. This is the right path."
[3:52] When Jesus sensed their disbelief, he said, "Who are my supporters towards GOD?" The disciples said, "We are GOD's supporters; we believe in GOD, and bear witness that we are submitters / muslims."
*3:51 This is precisely what Jesus is quoted to say throughout the New Testament. See for example the Gospel of John 20:17, and the book "Jesus: Myths and Message" by Lisa Spray, Ch. 4 (Universal Unity, Fremont, CA 1992).
Name:bigpundaddy •
Date: 03/05/07 5:12
A: Wow it is nice to know other out there don't believe anything in the Bible either. That you can sit there and punch holes in it all day long. Not that it is something to do but to have your faith torn into because of greed and financial gain. Take for instance. The Vatican. Lot and Lots of gold. But yet Jesus was poor. Greed is a sin. But yet the Vatican has enough gold to feed the world. Churchs relish in from donations of money and items but there so called employees use the items that are to help others in need and use the items themselves. Or the Pastor that has to get a new vehicle every 3 years. Yet his own church folk can barely eat because the give as much as they can to the church. Now all this makes me ponder the scriptures and the christian faith itself. Do I believe there was a man named Jesus that could perform miracles. Yes. Yet, I disagree that the books and scriptures he wrote were intended to be read they way they are now. Hence the Old Testament and New Testament. Why re-write something. Why only take part of the text and translate it.? Explain that and you might just figure out the truth.
Name:Gerri •
Date: 03/05/07 5:41
A: They answer is they are NOT reliable...but we have our churches to thank for the fact that we've been conditioned to "believe" blindly without questioning....basic impossibilites - like immaculate conception. (Today, it's called date rape). The fact that there is a 1 / 30,000 chance that it is not Jesus' tomb simply affirms that people need to believe more than they need the TRUTH. And Ted Koppel (shame on him for his unbalanced approach to "moderating") hit the nail on the head when he said to the woman on the show - that religion has a history of doing away with scientists who disprove religious beliefs. The Catholic church (for centuries - literally killed anyone who would shake their power and financial base with "the truth."
Jesus was a mortal and a Jew. So was his mother. Christianity is a faith that emerged after 70 AD. Jesus was not a Christian. The new testament was written hundreds of years AFTER the death of Christ and has morphed/changed - over the centuries, at the whims of whoever was in power. The King James bible (1500's) is the one used today - and King James actually elimiated a few sections and changed the Roman's holy language (Latin) to English. Latin was chosen strictly because they felt that the Jews had a holy language - Hebrew - so they wanted one too. The Scriptures were written by people in power - much like American history books - proclaiming how the brave cowboys bravely fought the savage indians - when in fact they killed them in cold blood....backs turned - on their reservations.
Get it? The bible is not an accounting of what actually happened - it's an interpretation of what happened - as written by those who wanted the rest of us - for centuries to come - to believe in. And who was going to dispute it - the majority were ILLITERATE - including JESUS! Let me ask you - if I walked into a hospital to deliver a baby and proclaimed myself a virgin - giving birth to the messiah - how many seconds do you think it would take for them to call the psych ward? Babies are not born to virgins, humans don't part the red sea, and bones don't vanish into thin air - people move them. Oh - that's right - it's all true - 2000 years ago - these magic tricks (miracles) were performed but these days - not possible....hmmm Funny how all the miracles happened 2000 years ago and not today.
In 400 AD Constantine put Jesus' divinity to a vote - the vote was "divine." Christianity is an outworking of Judaism - begat Greek Orthodox - begat Roman Catholicism - and later all the Protestant faiths - Lutheran, Methodist, Baptist, Episcopalian - etc. Religion is MAN MADE. This is not to say that God does or does not exist.....however the things we choose to believe and the stories we make up about them and how they're interpreted ARE. The more one studies the HISTORY of religion the more truth can be found. A wonderful starting point is a video mini-series documentary called "From Jesus to Christ" available on PBS website.
Name:bigpundaddy •
Date: 03/05/07 5:46
A: Geri wonderful way of putting things in terms that most can understand. I am going to watch that mini series to. Thanks.
Name:bcdfischer •
Date: 03/05/07 5:57
A: Heather:
It wasn't the fact that Jesus was not real. We all believe he is real. The question is was he Son of God. As a christian we believe he is the Son of God and died for OUR sins. We believe in Jesus.
It has never been a question of if he is real.
Mommyof2
Why couldn't Jesus be married and have a child. He was 30 years old and it was common for people to get married and have children. Why would it be so hard to think he was HUMAN, and did human things.
Name:bigpundaddy •
Date: 03/05/07 6:04
A: bcdfischer I believe there was a man named jesus and he did have children. But it is hard for a large portion of the Christian followers to believe that Jesus was human. They almost look at him as more of an immortal being that came and left here on a magic cloud or star. Like magic.
Name:truth •
Date: 03/05/07 7:07
A: For years people have replaced G-d with Jesus. I think G-d has had enough. Is your faith so weak that the bones of Jesus will make you abandon G-d? The Creator wants mankind to serve him in spirit and truth. It is said, “The truth will set you free!”
I find it strange that Judaism and Islam don’t view Jesus in the same manner as Christianity.
Is it not strange that Jesus was not thought of as god in flesh until years later? No where in the Jewish writings or Aramaic text does it state Jesus is a god.
Many of you will say it’s because the Jews killed him. You sadly mistaken and mislead. You have been lied to. Hoodwinked! Oppressed Jews didn’t have the authority to order anyone to be killed? The following are a few points to think about:
1)James, the brother of said in a debate over Jesus’ doctrine, that he (Jesus) never said, “He was the son of G-d.”
2)Jesus was Jewish, Jewish men marry and have families. Does not the Bible say, “He (Jesus) would kiss her (Mary) on her mouth often? As a Jew he would follow the law, would he not? Kissing her outside of marriage categorizes of fornication.
3)If the truth came out at this time the Catholic Church would lose billions of dollars and go into ruins. The people would know that they had been lying and leave the church.
4)The Orthodox Jews don’t want you to know the truth because you may try to become Jewish.
I will gather them from the four corners of earth, saith the L-rd our G-d. Some who believe in Jesus will become Muslims and those who don’t, Jews. I will make him (Ishmael) a Great Nation, saith the Lord our G-d.
5)My father would say, “If someone wants to rule over someone else all they have to do is Feed them and give them Money. And if they really want them to do what they say, Take It All Away!
Think about it, need I say more?
6) The Bible say’s, When the Messiah comes he will bring PEACE. We have not reached that state. However, I do see G-d unveiling the hearts of mankind and truth replacing the veil. Love never Fails!
7) READ, READ, READ, in the name of the L-rd. He will reveal the truth! Friday sundown to Sunday is not three days!
Lastly, I leave you the reader with this question. If there was no promise of Heaven or Hell would you continue to serve G-d? You say Yes, but would your heart still love Him the same if there were no streets paved of gold. Could you love Jesus for the doctrine he left Knowing that he is not G-d in flesh? ( G-d is G-d. Alone There is none else.) You would have to learn to TRUST G-d and Him Alone as does the Jew and Muslim.
Name:nizack05 •
Date: 03/05/07 7:11
A: You're questioning the scriptures over a theory on 3 years of work made into a TV show with and obvious bias on the subject? Wow, if you think the scriptures are fake, then couldn't something like a tomb be fake? anyone can put a pile of bones in a basket and put a name on it, just like anyone can write a book. You need to question how strong your faith is
Name:Merovingian •
Date: 03/05/07 16:30
A: bigpundaddy,
please, man, read some more about christian mysticism,
some quantum physics.....
Jesus was not a human. Even in Bible says He came in smth. like human body.
Magic is interesting word. I am a programer....when I build something I build it from WORDS...
as the Bible...in the begining there were the WORD or whatever is the translation in english. When you make the code, you can change it.
So if you read some quantum physics, you will make your point of view larger and you'll see that everything is information. WORDS.
:) this is just a hint.
Name:betty47 •
Date: 03/05/07 16:52
A: Who cares if Jesus was married and had a son? Wouldn't Mother Mary, as a Jewish mother, have wanted a grandchild? Of course! Do you know any Jewish mother on the planet today who doesn't want a grandchild? Some things don't change, so why is that so hard to believe that Jesus was married, and had a child, and that the child was protected so the family could live on? Does it change things really? No!!! A lot of what is in the Christian Gospels came from Saint Paul who never met Jesus. Other parts of the Bible were passed down through oral history before they were written down hundreds of years later. So it's probably very true that the story was changed over the years and some of it is not right. After 2000 years, it's time to find out what really happened and get it right. The sad thing is that we've lost the line of Jesus. If he had a son, I would like to know where his family is today. What happened to them?
Name:Skeptic68 •
Date: 03/05/07 17:11
A: I've read where people say that Jesus ascended into Heaven, why must it be the whole body of Jesus?
When someone dies, people say their soul/spirit went to heaven. Why would it be different with Jesus? It was his spirit that rose to heaven, while his mortal remains stayed behind. Maybe as a reminder to represent what the world had and what the world lost.
Name:SpiritWoman •
Date: 03/05/07 17:52
A: greetings Merovingian,
I to am a programmer, and know the viability of WORDS and formations of equations in relational databases.
I know that words are easily changed minipulated to gain or leave out whatever outcome you mean to obtain from the whole of the information you are drawing your data from.
One error means misinformation or worse ERROR.
To many times I've seen and retrained to many programmers that make grevious mistakes by inadvertantly leaving out a very important criteria in thier statement. By being misinformed or not trained properly they have created false data or errors.
Much like all stigmatized religious dogma.
This conclusion is dangerous since it is your bread and butter and can lead to disaster in the reporting and database world.
So to, can it be in the Spiritual world. As any religion carves out the whole of what we know of Human spirituality to fit thier own institutional concept. It Leads to a false READ. This sends you flying down the proverbial rabbit hole when it comes to stigmatized religious dogma that has no room for anything BUT CRITERIA.
So that being said the statemnt for the total of Creation? ALL. Simple. Not Hard. No criteria to breakout. No knowledge to debunct. ALL is viable.
So let's sum It up. Oh Yeh easy. ALL!!!
So, is the cannon the whole story? I don't think so. Just as I beleive all of the answers do not reside in the middle east or ancient times as Creator populated and has control over the whole world IT is in ALL and IS ALL and still exists.
We literally made a dust bowl of the earth in the middle east fighting over dogma, and we are still doing it today.
No Tech Specs needed.
The criteria is to simple.
Is it to late to correct the error?
Peace
SW
Name:vegasvickie •
Date: 03/05/07 19:21
A: It's not about how reliable the scriptures are...it's about whether we look at them literally or metaphorically.
Name:Wes Boll •
Date: 03/05/07 19:25
A: Hey, we got untill eternity to debate and discuss religion as we have had 2000 years so far, Need to be asking if someone lost the bones, that just ain't right!!!!!!!They said they burined thim in the DOC,the picture looked like someone digging a hole for their dog in the back yard!!!! If they did empty the boxes and buried the bones someone had to be looking after them!!!!
Name:ionerice •
Date: 03/05/07 19:37
A: There is no evidence outside of the four Gospels that Jesus/Yeshua ever lived.
Name:ionerice •
Date: 03/05/07 19:42
A: Neither Mark (which was the 1st Gospel written) nor Luke was eyewitnesses to any of the events that took place during the life of Yeshua. Their Gospels were hearsay only.
Name:Wes Boll •
Date: 03/05/07 20:20
A: Let's get a radical muslim involved with the conversation!!!!
