Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Title: Inter-faith & Extra-faith text analysis sharing •
Date posted: 01/05/08 14:13
Q: I would like to hear from people.
I would like to hear from people who have done studies in text analysis of their own and other faiths.
Share with me one tid-bit that was interesting to you.
Here is mine :
The Bagdad museum has a tablet with part of the commandments of Moses. That tablet pre-dates Moses by hundreds of years.
Quebec Indie Anna
Name:Panluna •
Date: 01/05/08 17:04
A: Were those texts from ancient Babylonia?
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/06/08 3:38
A: Hi Panluna,
Yes, you are right. The ancient tablets with commandments that pre-date Moses by 600 hundred years are from a library that existed almost 4000 years ago. (Minus 1850) (And Moses is thought to have been alive around minus 1275.)
It doesn't take away from the beauty of the new covenant that Moses wanted for his people. It's just that he took known social laws and added his own, new, 'god laws' (re the sabbath...)
Indie
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/07/08 12:49
A: Text analysis sharing no. 2 :
In the ancient Celtic Islands, the lapwing bird made its nest in holes in the ground.
Then, in 10 000 BC the hare (the rabbit) was introduced to the Islands.
The hare came to share the same fields with the lapwing bird.
In fact the colouring of lapwing eggs in spring was the same as the colouring of the fur of baby rabbits.
In the same fields, in the s p r i n g, of the same colour, were
bird e g g s and baby r a b b i t s.
Spring, eggs, rabbits. Spring eggs, rabbits.
The name of the ancient fertility Goddess was Estre.
Note the etimological commonality with the word "estrogen".
When Christianity came to the Celts, Christianity grafted itself onto
an existing culture.
And so, my Scotish grand-mother told her children about the
'Easter' bunny that lays eggs !
Indie
Name:Panluna •
Date: 01/07/08 16:50
A: Well now I know where bunny-eggs come from!
Many cultures assimilate aspects of earlier peoples.and everything intertwines to some degree.A very interesting website is Crystalinks.com.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/07/08 22:14
A: :)
I'll check out the link.
Indie
Name:sam •
Date: 01/09/08 23:37
A: Indie Anna in Quebec, Canada
QuebecIndieAnna , Hello
Sam of Toronto wish you all the best for the new year.
Your post is very interesting, I do understand that you are well educated at least in the teaching of your religion.
First, I will bring the facts, then there are few points (question) which I would like you to answer .
You said: The world had had to face the reality of text analysis. Not an easy thing to do.
Fact: All people born clean and without any knowledge, then they are fed with what they do not know about faith & religion from early time by their families, AND THAT, ISWHAT I CALL (INHERITANCE), then comes the second stage, the stage where the teachers and the priests take over to make sure that the person are secured and chained to their circle.
There are many faiths and believes all around the world, and no one believe that any of the others are right, and for sure everyone think that he is right, even the one who worship Idols of stones and the one who worships animals, they hardly will accept to change, while some are well educated and live in 21st century.
I THINK PEOPLE ARE BLIND WHEN COMES TO RELIGION (that goes for all religion and beliefs, no exceptions). And Jesus was right when He said : Mat-15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
note: Remember that the teaching of the churches are not 100% the teaching of JESUS, Paul and many others added a lot, he added the formula THE SON OF GOD after Jesus death, and in ROME the formula of the TRINITY...JESUS A PART OF GOD...JESUS IS GOD came after 380 years from Jesus death.
The three main Religions (of Moses or Jesus or Muhammad) in general came from one source, that is from GOD, and the same God of the three messengers, and whom they believe that they are the children of ABRAHAM, NOAH etc...and ADAM, to bring people together (love & peace) and brought within good laws for the benefits of the world, but it is a shame that people ignore the messages and follows Imam, Priest and Rabbi.
Q- A... Did you ever tried to find the truth outside your circle, and why not?.
B... Your faith depend mainly on the books, the 4 gospels (you mentioned them and their writers) and the personal letters of Paul. So, do you keep following the religion which you inherit and taught after finding {text analysis} the books are full of contradictions and errors and not reliable ?.
Note: I did study the Bible and the Gospels, and I believe in the parts of the books which can be accepted LOGICALLY , and that is THE WORDS OF JESUS, and the COMMANDMENTS, and because those are related to God, but the stories of the families or the descendant of Abraham and the others are no more than the people talks and has nothing to do with a relogion and they are not the word of God,. There are parts of the stories in the Bible which are false and wrong, and in the gospels many stories did not come from Jesus himself but that someone heard another people mentioning stories, then were written by people who do not understand the science of logic (Mat & John) or (Mar & Luke) who never heard the words of Jesus and they wrote their stories mainly from their teacher Paul who himself never met Jesus.
C... (to face the reality....which is.... Not an easy thing to do.) Will you or can you?.
And what you will do after?. Are you going to move and join the Buddhism or became a follower of Krishna or you will become not believer in God as some Christians do ?. Do you ever think of looking at the other big religion that came after Jesus and has one book called the Quran ?. If not why?.
D... Do you believe in Jesus:
1- as the son of God, or
2- as God (the creator)
... Do you believe in, that the Bible & the Gospels are the words of God.?
... Do you believe that God knows everything and will never brings false and wrong words?.
I would like to hear your words about my post, and I will bring more of my own analysis in the next post. And before leaving, I will bring Jesus words which always tells us the truth.
M 12:36 But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, that shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment.
M 37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.
God bless you.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/10/08 2:48
A: Hi Sam from Toronto
Thank you for your thoughtful post.
Gosh, my beliefs ?
There's a song on the radio here in Quebec entitled that is worded
" Si Dieu Existe... " If God exists...
I don't know. I know I've had a few moments in my life when I feel a Goodness not of this world touch my life.
My family's roots are Catholic, Presbeterian, and Native.
I grew up in secural France.
My interest in the history of religion grew out of a general interest in history. I did a degree in theology out of curiosity to understand how Judao-Christianism evolved.
I'm pretty sure that most dogma, in all religions, are the fabrications of men.
But, sitting out in the Sinai desert one night with my Palestinian driver and my Palestinian guide, drinking tea the one had prepared, listening to them talk about news about the Olympic competitions of that day, then falling into silence and looking up at the stars, then looking around at the sand and the rock and the silence and the total aloness one feels in the desert, I can see how that People, of long ago, felt a Presence, with them.
The only thing I know for sure is : we human beings are relational beings.
We each want and need the feel that we matter, that we are real.
What Simcha has done is somehow bring people of different faiths to the same table and discover that we all need to know that we are real.
I came back from the Middle East very much pro-Palestian.
I still am. But Simcha has done one thing for me : he has
made me feel, at long last, that Jews have real need to be in
that land. The Israel Antiquities Authority and the State of Israel cared about preserving the bone boxes. Even Orthodox Jews (as literal Christians and fanatical Islam) who get on my nerves, because of their dogged protection of tombs, are in part responsible for the preservation of ancient tombs.
If I was ruler of the world back in 1948 and I told everybody at the Peace Talks after WWII " Hey, we need to create a Jewish State " I would have said " That's rediculous! We don't send Irish Americans back to Dublin! We don't think all Catholics should live in Rome. We don't send the Europeans in America back to Europe so Native populations can have America back to themselves. We don't send Black Americans back to Africa. Creating a Jewish State is rediculous. "
And yet, here I am, 28 years after I was in the Middle East (I was there in 1980 btw), here I am, now, grateful that a Jewish State exists. Why? I think it is the only entity that would have made this 'caring about ' the history and the archaeology of Jewish history as it exists today.
But, I still think Palestinian need their own land.
How does multi-cultural humanity get to a point of being able to share the planet, and, more to the point, share a tiny parcel of land that had the wailling wall, the dome of the rock and christian holy places? How?
My God! How? If God exists, that is my question.
The best answer I have heard lately, is the example of seeing a Jew push againts a cement slab and say with joy in his voice " Hey, guys, we're rolling the stone"
What is that ? It is curiosity and interest, and awe, and respect of one man for the religion, the scriptures of another man. That to me is the most significant event of this whole thing.
They could find out tomorrow morning that the whole theory is somehow now proven incorrect. That would not matter to me.
The real treasure, as far as I am concerned, is the example of Simcha's curiosity and interest in the religious history of anothe human being.
I want to lear Arabic. I want to read the Coran in Arabic one day.
I'll probably want to read just straight Arab poetry first, because
when I study the literature of a people, I do not begin with
their religioius lit.
Do I believe in a " God the Father " ?
Heck, if He's up there, great.
But I ain't holding my breath.
How we treat fellow human beings, here, now, is what I look to.
I am certainly not a literalist. That is for sure.
I believe in forgiveness.
Solicitude.
Laughter.
-
Patience.
Kindness.
Humour.
Quiet- time.
I am very much a
" God made the Sabbath for Man, not Man for the Sabbath "
kind of person.
Yet, I think we should pick a day (not Friday, Saturday, or Sunday),
and as a Globe, shut down our stores and work places, and be quiet together. Monday ?
Do I believe in regionally preserving traditions ? Yes.
As a kid who grew up being dragged from Air Force base
and school to another, I really needed, at one point,
to retreat back into a small town that was uni-cultural
and French-Canadian and just deal with one culture
for a nuber of years. So, yes, we need that connection
to very specific cultural roots at some point.
But, going to war and blowing up people over trinities,
transubstantiation, he was a god, no he wasn't, he
was a prophet, reincarnation, creationist, evolutionist,
my prophet was the last and best and you're going
to hell if you do not think like I think...
Sainte peanut de cacawet !
(My frenglish version of "Sheesh!")
Or, as my Irish grand-mother would say :
" Saints, preserve us! "
I gotta go.
Late guys.
Indie Anna in a very windy Quebec tonight.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/10/08 14:21
A: Hi Sam.
I read your post a 2nd time.
I'd like to react to one paragraph.
This is you paragraph :
Sam wrote :
" The three main Religions (of Moses or Jesus or Muhammad) in general came from one source, that is from GOD, and the same God of the three messengers, and whom they believe that they are the children of ABRAHAM, NOAH etc...and ADAM, to bring people together (love & peace) and brought within good laws for the benefits of the world, but it is a shame that people ignore the messages and follows Imam, Priest and Rabbi. "
Your attitude is one of respect for all 3 religions.
I admire you for that.
The point I wanted to bring to your review of the 3 Great religions is the following :
- when one looks at those 3 religions developmentally, and asks the question " What historical, or social conditions, existed that allowed the development of those religions ? "
- when on asks " What kinds of religious beliefs pre-existed to the 3 Great religions ? "
- when one realised that organised human society existed for at least 40 thousand years before the 3 Great religions came into being, I, for one,
ask myself : if we consider that Abraham probably live around the year 1850 BCE, then we can say, in general, the 3 Great religions have been around for about 4000 years (give or take a few centuries for Christianity and Islam).
B u t , what about the 35 000 other years before?
What is it, about the evolution of human habitation, that caused these 3 Great religions to (relatively speaking) appear almost simultaneously.
I say ' simultaneously ' because they each appear with a few centuries of one another. Remember, I'm trying to look at the b i g picture here.
I am trying to look at human society over a 40 or 50 000 years space time continuum.
What made 3 monotheistic religions materialize, all about the same time?
My answer is based on anthropology.
My answer is based on my having grown up on military bases.
My answer is based on study of how human society formed.
My answer, to the question " Why 3 monotheistic religions appeared at the same time ? " , is :
As long as human society continued on as scattered family groups of hunter-gatherers,
as long as human society continued on as the odd cluster of villages,
here and there,
as long as human society did not form into a set of distinct
federations of cities ( n a t i o n s )
as long as human society did not elect k i n g s and create a r m i e s,
as long n a t i o n s did not materialize,
the spiritual life of humans remained diverse.
That is to say, there were male and female divinities,
divinities for fertility (Estre for the Celts...)
Greece had a whole concourse of Divinities, and on the
Arabian Peninsula, each tribe had its own Divinity.
An so on, and so forth...
What the 3 Great religions have in common, is that they all
come into being in the context of n a t i o n creation.
Judaism begins with " God Gave Us This Land ".
Christianity was born in a land of ' occupation' .
Cesar's Empire.
The Arabian Peninsula was still quite.
Its tribes still independent of one another.
(A little like American Indian tribes....)
And, when the population density was just right,
a man, Muhammed, Paix soit sur lui, came along.
He had lost his parent at a young age.
He had travelled and been brought up by uncles.
He knew the need to protect the orphan and the widow.
He saw that Arabian tribes fought between themselves.
He united them into one.
He created a n a t i o n .
He created a monotheistic religion.
Without exception, the 3 Great religions, all came into being
in the context of nation-building.
Without exception, the 3 Great religions, all came into being
in the context of army presence or formation.
That is historical fact.
As a global society, we have to come to grips with our own history,
that is staring us in the face.
As a global society, we have to learn humility and admit that
our 3 Great religions, though they each have sublime
scripture, they are historical occurences.
That is what humanity needs to validate.
Humanity needs to validate its own history.
I do not want to undo the beauty of anyone's Scripture.
When I was in the Sinai desert with my Palestinian driver and guide,
I felt I was with human beings o f that land.
When I was with Israelis, I felt like I was with new arrivals to that land.
When I was sitting in the Sinai desert, if I'd been sitting with my big clumsy volume of the Jerusalem Bible in my lap, and if I'd been sitting with one Arabe and one Jew, I would f e e l that the Arabe was of that land. I would f e e l that the Jew is a de-rooted person, like myself, Air-Force Brat that I am.
What I mean is : when I was in the Middle East, I experienced
a connection to Bible culture because because of Arab villages and peoples. They are the ones who made me feel a connection to the culture of the ancient world of the Bible.
But, what Simcha has helped me to understand, is that the Bible, that anthology of Books that is the Old Testament and the New Testament, is a product of a deported, exiled people, and seeing him climb into that tomb, and seeing him tremble and go weak before a couple of ossuairies, that sight has made me experience, for the first time, that it is somehow right that Jews have some place in that land, even if I remain firm in my belief that Palestinians need to have their land back.
So, to recap,
You, Sam of Toronto, wrote :
" The three main Religions (of Moses or Jesus or Muhammad) in general came from one source, that is from GOD, and the same God of the three messengers, and whom they believe that they are the children of ABRAHAM, NOAH etc...and ADAM, to bring people together (love & peace) and brought within good laws for the benefits of the world, but it is a shame that people ignore the messages and follows Imam, Priest and Rabbi. "
My response is : Yes. People ignore the m e s s a g e s of Imam, Priest, and Rabbi. We get caught up in culture-specific dogma and customs.
The 3 pre-nation, pre-army nfluences in my ancestral roots are
- aborigial North American
- Irish & Scotish celtic,
- French-Canadian hunter-trapper.
When my friend from Algeria says to me :
" My father was a m a s o n who worked in Marseille.
When he came home in winter, to be with us and
have a holiday, his idea of a perfect day was to
pack a lunch and to up into the mountain where
my cousin had his flock of sheep."
To my Algerian friend I would answer :
" Oh yea? That's interesting, because when my father
would come home from flying his jet, he'd put on old
clothes, go up north of Montreal to his cabin in the woods,
and when I'd find him sharpening his axe before going out
to chop wood for the fire, I saw a man connected to the land,
connected to the forests of Quebec. "
If one day I go to Algeria, the first thing I want to do is pack a
lunch, go up the mountain with my friend and sit and eat
my lunch and watch the sheep grazing.
Indie Anna in Quebec Canada
Name:sam •
Date: 01/10/08 21:07
A: Dear QuebecIndieAnna ,
Thank you for your answer.
Your post came under this title: Title: Inter-faith & Extra-faith text analysis sharing
Then you follow it by this statement : I would like to hear from people who have done studies in text analysis of their own and other faiths.
Share with me one tid-bit that was interesting to you.
SO, I understand that the main subject that we are going to deal with is FAITH & the purpose is to share our thoughts and analysis mainly on this subject, and for that we should focus our analysis on the faith (faiths) and when we bring the history to the table, then we open discussion which will not serve our main purpose, which is FINDING THE TRUTH and the FACTS about todays main religions, specially the Christian faith/religion, which happen to be the main subject of discussion of this FORUMS as you know, and which brought a shock not only to the Christians but the others too.
Panluna wrote: I know the tomb finding caused a great deal of controvesy but the origins of Christianity has always been shrouded in contradictions. All it took was science to cut through the mists and give a clear vision. And it's a real shock for the believers....
and your answer was: Shock indeed. The world had had to face the reality of text analysis.
Not an easy thing to do.
I totally agree with Panluna and you.
In my post I did ask many questions, among them these : D... Do you believe in Jesus:
1- as the son of God, or
2- as God (the creator)
... Do you believe in, that the Bible & the Gospels are the words of God.?
... Do you believe that God knows everything and will never brings false and wrong words?.
Of course, and as usual, and as always it is a shock to me, to see not even one Christian answer those questions !!!, but they keep going around to change the main subject which is about faith and believe.
Dear friend, It is not easy after believing in something for 2000 years AS THE TRUE THING, to find out what you believe in is not true, NOT EASY THING TO DO. But I say that, the honest people and the smart ones are those who ACCEPT THE TRUTH NO MATTER HOW MUCH IT HURTS.
When believing in the judgment day and in heaven or hell, it is better to be sure that one understand that he is responsible for himself to chose the right truck, because eternity in hell is not a joke.
IndieAnna, If you answer my questions or not, is not a big deal, So, let us discuss the FAITHS ONLY.
Religion is built upon faith, and faith is built upon teaching, and teaching is built upon words recorded and written in book/books.
For that we can say that THE ROOT of any religion/faith/teaching IS THE BOOK/BOOKS.
I did say in my previous post that every religion/faith claims that they are on the right side, while all the others are wrong !!!. So, the only way to find the truth is to go to the book/books, and do analyze the words and the stories that came within.
But analyzing had to be done in the right way, and that mean we should use LOGIC, SCIENCE, REASONING AND FACT to come to the truth.
Analyzing the gospels by the people of the church or their followers, and bringing the words of the Bible and the words of Paul and his letter to his friends in other churches and the words of popes and bishops as a proof, all that will not bring the truth and it is a wrong kind of analysis.
IndieAnna, I hope you will agree with me that our discussion in analyzing few point at a time to avoid going in an empty circle with no end to it, and for that reason I will suggest that we discuss these 3 main point of the Christian beliefs, and if they were right or wrong:
1- Is Jesus, son of God, part of God, God. Or He is a prophet .
Let us listen carefully to the words of Jesus. {I do believe first in His words}.
J- 17:3 That they may know YOU, THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST WHOM YOU HAVE SENT. {Here Jesus is telling us that He was sent by God, the only true God, as a messenger/prophet, and that means Jesus is not God -LOGIC-.}
J- 17:14 I have given them YOUR WORD... {The word and the message are not Jesus message, but Gods message -LOGIC.}
MA- 10:18 Why do you call ME good? NO ONE IS GOOD EXCEPT GOD ALONE. {Jesus refused to be called good !!!, why ?, because He wanted us to believe in only God who is the Good. - FACT}
M-24:36 But of that day and hour no one knows, NOT EVEN THE ANGELS OF HEAVEN, NOR THE SON, BUT THE FATHER ALONE. {Can we understand here that Jesus separate Himself and the Angels to one side and GOD alone on the other side?, NOT... , NOR... , but the FATHER ALONE. -LOGIC}
- People who had clear mind will understand what Jesus is Saying here, and what He is teaching them is from GOD and not from Himself. It does not need a genius to understand what Jesus meant in everything He said.
J-7:18 He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but he who is seeking the glory of the one who sent Him, He is true, and there is no unrighteousness in him. {The glory belong only to God who sent Jesus. LOGIC & TRUE }.
J-7:19 Did not MOSES give you the law, and yet none of you carries out the law? Why do you seek to kill me? . {The laws which Gives to Moses are the commandments, in which Jesus himself believe in. 1- YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME. 2- YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FOR YOURSELF AN IDOL OR ANY LIKENESS.... (Jesus came to fulfil and not to abolish the teaching of Abraham and Moses.}
J-7:28 Then JESUS cried out in the temple, teaching and saying, you both know me and know where I am from; and I HAVE NOT COME OUT OF MYSELF, BUT HE WHO SENT ME IS TRUE, WHOM YOU DO NOT KNOW.
{ -You know Me, but you do not know GOD. God sent Jesus, and that means Jesus is not God or part of God. LOGIC.}
J-7:29 I know him, because I am from him, and HE SENT ME . {I know him, and that means , I am not HIM. LOGIC.}
J-7:33 Therefore JESUS said, for a little while longer I am with you, then I GO TO HIM WHO SENT ME. {How can Jesus be God, while He said HE (GOD) sent me? - LOGIC}
J-8:26 I have many things to speak and to judge concerning you, but HE WHO SENT ME IS TRUE; and the things which I heard from him, these I speak to the world.
J-8:28 So JESUS said, WHEN YOU LIFT UP THE SON OF MAN, THEN YOU WILL KNOW THAT I AM HE, and I do nothing on my own initiative, BUT I SPEAK THESE THINGS AS THE FATHER TAUGHT ME.
J-8:29 And HE WHO SENT ME is with me; he has not left me alone, FOR I ALWAYS DO THE THINGS THAT ARE PLEASING TO HIM....
J-8:42 JESUS said to them, if GOD were your father, you would love me, for I proceeded forth and have come from GOD, FOR I HAVE NOT EVEN COME ON MY OWN INITIATIVE, BUT HE SENT ME.
{all what I read above are telling me the same, and that is God sent Jesus and God gave Jesus the message, So how can the Christian not believe in Jesus words !!!?.
J-8:54 JESUS answered, if I glorify myself, my glory is nothing; IT IS MY FATHER WHO GLORIFY ME, OF WHOM YOU SAY, HE IS OUR GOD;.
Jesus said: HE IS OUR GOD, and OUR means, MINE & YOURS AND EVERYONE ELSE - LOGIC.
J-9:17 So they said to the blind man again, what do you say about him, since he opened your eyes? and he said, HE IS A PROPHET.
J-13:13 YOU CALL ME TEACHER AND LORD; AND YOU ARE RIGHT, FOR SO I AM.
{- Jesus tells them, they are right in what they calls Him, because HE IS A TEACHER and Lord, and not grater than the one who sent Him.}
J-13:16 TRULY, TRULY, I SAY TO YOU, a slave is not greater than his master, NOR IS ONE WHO SENT (Jesus) GREATER THAN THE ONE WHO SENT HIM (GOD). {What a great example, Jesus here is comparing Himself to God, as a slave to his master. }
J-14:1 Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in GOD, believe ALSO IN ME. {Jesus wanted the people to believe in God first then believe in Him as He is HIS messenger whom He brings the word of truth.}
At the time Of Jesus, His followers they do believe that He is a prophet.
J -6:14 Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.
Mat- 21:9-11 The crowds going ahead of Him, and those who followed, were shouting,.......(those are His followers who knew Him)....etc.....When He had entered Jerusalem, all the city was stirres, saying, WHO IS THIS?. And the crowds were saying, THIS IS THE PROPHET JESUS, from Nazareth in Galilee.
And the words of Jesus testify that He is a prophet:
Mat- 13:55-57 Is not this the carpenters son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this man get all these things?
AND THEY TOOK OFFENCE AT HIM.
But Jesus said to them, A PROPHET IS NOT WITHOUT HONOR EXCEPT IN HIS HOMETOWN AND IN HIS OWN HOUSEHOLD.
{Jesus here describing Himself as a prophet, and not as God or son of God. Those are His true words about Himself, So, can we say that He was not telling us the truth?}
After all that we should know that Jesus mentioned Himself as THE SON OF MAN 89 times in the 4 Gospels, so my friend if you come to one or two that say the son of God, some of those are a forgery, and here the proof:
John - 9:35 In the NASB came as the SON OF MAN . (this was translated from the original language)
John- 9:35 in Catholic online Bible its the SON OF GOD .
Do you think that can be accepted to change the words of Jesus to what ever we feel like?.
Jesus said: J- 8:28 When you lift up THE SON OF MAN, then you will know THAT I AM HE.
And I DO NOTHING ON MY OWN INITIATIVE, BUT I SPEAK THESE THING AS THE FATHER TAUGHT ME. {I am the son of man and not the son of God, that Jesus message- LOGIC }.
There are much of Jesus words which prove that He is not God or the son of God, BUT He is a messenger and prophet, and I hope what I brought here are proof to my analysis in regards to the truth about Jesus.
My second post will be about the Gospels. Are all what was written in them the word of God, and everything in them can be trusted to be true, or only the words of Jesus?
I hope that our discussion and analysis will be under the same post ( Inter-faith & Extra-faith text analysis sharing), so we can keep it easy to follow.
God bless you.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/11/08 6:18
A: T h u r s d a y night, Jan 10th, well, 11th now...
Ahallan Sam.
I quickly zigzaged down your last post.
The Socratic Method and Ibn Rusht live. :)
I'm going to print it and read it tonight.
I'll try to get back to you on Saturday.
You had me smilling, though...
Muslims are very good at Bible bashing.
Do you know this term?
I mean it with a gentle smile.
You know, in the 1950s, in Quebec, the first missionaries to go door to door were the Jehovah Witnesses who came up the the US. The Premier of our Province, at the time, was a man by the name of Maurice Duplessis and he really did not like Johovah Witnesses.
He tried to pass laws to prevent them from going door to door.
In the 60s, various other missionnaries came to Quebec,
again from the US, representing various Churches.
All of them used methods of logic within set
" denominational theologocial truths " , in order to
r e a s o n with the Qubecois (people from Quebec)
in order to get them to agree, using deduction.
This is called using the Socratic Method of teaching.
One of the reasons why I sometime don't try to keep up
with my Muslim friends when they Bible bash with me
(and we do it in fun, at out favourite caf), is that I confess
that like many people in Quebec, I suffer from a kind of
'tiredness' with proselitism.
The reason has to do with our history here with the Catholic
Church.
The other reason has to do with the influence on our culture from
Native cultures, who have a more relaxed (less formal, less
structured) relationship with a spiritual entity.
One thing that will help me follow your reasonings, is if you shorten your sentences. I exist mainly in French. Writing in English is okay for me, but I tend to be dyslexic in English. :)
If I have long sentences, I get lost and lose sight of the logic of the speaker (writer in your case).
I can reply to one point now from your post :
You write that
" our main purpose, is FINDING THE TRUTH and the FACTS about todays main religions.... "
The bone-box events and the science involved can cause many to
engage in " truth " and " fact" finding. I understand that.
I do not come to this web with such intent.
My motivation is the to celebrate the literature and the history of the other.
I do not come to this web site with the intent of trying to back people into a corner to get them to convert to Islam.
But, I do discuss with my Arab friends.
In fact, my Arab friend and I spoke at the caf today about
Ibn Khaldun , whom my friend says was the father of
sociology.
I did a web search when I got home.
I have to agree with him.
This is what I found :
http://web.archive.org/web/20001020211920/-http://home.att.net/~a.aly/khaldun.htm
Ib-n- Khaldun, a sufi who died in 1406 AD, was a renaissance man, the real father of sociology.
He defined the foundations of sociology more than 4 centuries before Auguste Comte "discovered" them.
Ibn Khaldun lived in an era when the Muslim Nation in North Africa
and the Iberian peninsula disintegrated into a multitude of city states fighting against each other.
At the same time the Spaniards were uniting their kingdoms and steadily taking over the Muslim city states in Iberia.
I also found this paragraph :
Muslim scientists and scholars have contributed immensely to human knowledge especially in the period between 8th and 14th century CE .
However, their contributions have been largely ignored, forgotten or have gone un-acknowledged . On this site you can read fascinating accounts of some of the most talented Muslim scholars in history whose contributions have left lasting marks in the annals of science, astronomy, medicine, surgery, engineering and philosophy .
Contens
Jabir Ibn Haiyan died 803
Mohammad Bin Musa al-Khawarizmi died 840
Yaqub Ibn Ishaq al-Kindi 800
Thabit Ibn Qurra 836
Ali Ibn Rabban al-Tabari 838
Abu Abdullah al-Battani 858
Al-Farghani 860
Mohammad Ibn Zakariya al-Razi 864
Abu al-Nasr al-Farabi 870
Abul Hasan Ali al-Masu'di died 957
Abu al-Qasim al-Zahrawi 936 (see also)
Abul Wafa Muhammad al-Buzjani 940
Abu Ali Hasan Ibn al-Haitham 965
Abu al-Hasan al-Mawardi 972
Abu Raihan al-Biruni 973
Ibn Sina 980 (see also)
Omar al-Khayyam 1044
Abu Hamid al-Ghazali 1058
Abu Marwan Ibn Zuhr 1091
Al-Idrisi 1099
Ibn Rushd 1128
Ibn al-Baitar died 1248
Nasir al-Din al-Tusi 1201
Jalal al-Din Rumi 1207
Ibn al-Nafis 1213
Ibn Khaldun 1332
Ibn Sina - doctor of doctors
El Zahrawi - father of surgery
Ibn Battuta - the great traveller
Caesarean Birth - an Islamic view
Water Raising Machines
I come to this site in order to validate the history and the
culture of the other.
I do not come to this site in order to badger them into giving statements about the Father , Son, and Holy Ghost, and
hammer at them that they are going to go to hell because they will condemn themselves with their own words.
I come to this wonderful forum, to say my agreement
that God leave more up to us than we give God credit for.
God makes us more free than we allow one another to be.
I am not a v o i d i n g answering you about Jesus metaphysical make-up.
I do not believe in discussing what Jesus is.
I believe in discussing what Jesus said.
Don't ask the descendant of hunters and tappers to give you
a statement on the metaphysics of Jesus.
The only thing we are interested in is
- are honesty, solicitude, kindness, patience, respect of nature, values that you ascribe to?
Religion is not faith, belief, words, & books.
Religion is a smile, a wave, a hello friend, a welcome stranger.
Religion is building schools for girls in Africa.
Religion is supporting moral trade practices.
Religion is defending human rights.
Religion is my dentist who uses her vacation time to go fill teeth of children, for free in a far off land.
Religion is my friend going to build a house for a tsunami victim during his holiday, instead of going on a cruse.
Religion is sending books to a school, for free.
Religion is not faith, belief, words, and books.
The Bible is nothing. It's just paper.
When I die and go to be judged, Jesus is not going to appear with
the Bible in his hand and say to me
" Well, Indie, you were really nice to everyone you met,
but, gosh, you don't believe I'm God, so, sorry, but,
off to the flames you go. "
Every Holy Woman, every Holy Man, including Mohammed, paix soit sur lui, said that what we do is more important that what we believe.
Logic, science, reasoning and fact are but tools.
The bone boxes do not undo my awe at who Jesus was, as a man.
Last night I finally got around to watching Discovery Channel's press conference, at
http://dsc.discovery.com/-convergence/tomb/tomb.html
I- cried.
Mr. Jacobovici's reverence made me cry.
This man's respect for the literary tradition of others moves me.
Old Testament and New Testament record are not for you to judge as
now worthless. These testament are complexe compilations of human being, containing heavenly whispers.
For you to assume that they have no value, my friend, is wrong.
I would never imply to you that the Coran is worthless.
I would love to discuss with you about the Coran.
But I am tired of hearing the same thing, over and over and over again.
The Coran was written by one hand.
It has no editing or abrigments.
It is perfect.
There's got to be more to Arab literary history than that!
I want to hear about someone else other than the Prophet Mohammed.
Other great Muslims have live!
Other great Muslims have thought.
Other great Muslim have written.
Other great Muslims have touche humanity.
Yes, the Occident has ignored and refused to validate everything
the Arab world has done. So, lets share.
Share with me a poem you learned as a child.
Share with me a story your mother told you.
Share with me what made you grand-father laugh.
Share with me what song you sang as a child as you skipped along on your way to Coranis school in the morning.
But please,
I've had enough Socratic reasoning to last me a lifetime.
I've had enough logic.
I've had enough truthes.
I've had enough science.
Tell me the first joke your grand-father ever told you.
Tell me why your best friend is your best friend.
Tell me what your favourite Sourate is.
I shall close by telling you my favourite verse in the Bible.
1Jn 1 19 Aimons, puisque Lui nous a aim le premier.
Love, since God loved you first.
Indie
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/11/08 16:30
A: Sam,
I sent you a post under theheading
Theological Implications.
Indie
Name:sam •
Date: 01/11/08 23:30
A: Dear IndieAnna,
You started your post with : I would like to hear from people who have done studies in text analysis of their own and other faiths.
Share with me one tid-bit that was interesting to you.
I hope you did not forget that you asked to share with you the studies done in text analysis of their own and other faiths. (THEIR OWN & OTHER FAITHS).
Five years ago, I wasnt interested in any religion, and I was not a follower of any {I never counted myself as a Muslim, and I never read the Quran or any other Muslim book, and I never prayed from the time I was 14, before that I was I Catholic school and I been in the church and even I rang the bell with my best friend George Mussali}
My interest came after my retirement (65), when I watched the National Geographic program THE LOST GOSPEL OF JUDAS, I am an old friend, since my first subscription to their magazine was in 1953.
It was a SHOCK, and I learned a lot, and for the first time I bought the NEW TESTAMENT, and after I bought the Quran, I did make more than 200 pages of notes whle reading these books many, many times.
My findings was a shock to me, first , to find letters from a church leader to his friends included in the holy book, second, to find stories in the gospels about Jesus far away from reality or common sense or logic, and the samfe finding in the old testament (I will bring those in the posts to follow)
I brought in my last post some of my studies and the analysis text analysis of their own and other faiths. Share with me one tid-bit that was interesting to you.
---- Your answer was a SHOCK, Did ever meant what said in your first post? Are you educated enough to know the full meaning of the terms ANALYSIS.... LOGIC or the term SCIENTIFIC DISCUSSION ?
You claim my analysis as The Socratic Method . WOW !!!. Here is what Socrates philosophy all about:
Socrates's most famous philosophical ideas: the necessity of doing what one thinks is right even in the face of universal opposition, and the need to pursue knowledge even when opposed.
So, If you think that pursuing knowledge and bring what is right are wrong, and you did not accept the logic way, and you did not accept the philosophy way, then for God sake, you tell me what is the right way to analyze the Gospels.
I cannot find a description to your way of analyzing things. But I think it is similar to the way that the churches used for two thousand year to confuse their people and keep them going into an empty curcle. The following is an examples from your works:
- Muslims are very good at Bible bashing.
WRONG,{First, the Muslim love Jesus, and He is a prophet to them, like Moses, Abraham and the rest. Second, the Muslim deal with the real Jews and Christians as AHL EL-KETAB THE PEOPLE OF THE BOOKS, THE TORAH & THE BIBLE. The knew that these books do not represents the originals, So they try to find the truth by going back to the history and analyzing the books. Third, THE FACT IS, that more Christians are BASHING their own books and bashing each others than any other faith on this earth. Here and example:
Retired Bishop John S. Spong wrote the following:
1- The Bible full of contradictions and errors.
2- The Gospels cannot be trusted to be reliable.
3- Paul quite obviously was not Trinitarian.
4- I am not interested in preserving the doctrine of the Trinity. I do not believe that the ULTIMATE TRUTH of God has been captured in the TRINITARIAN FORMULA.
5- They were moving the Christ experience far beyond its original vocabulary. {That is the truth, which the Muslims believe that the churches changed Jesus message.}
See his site.
The former Catholic NUN who moved to Protestant wrote:
I believe in the Trinity... I dont understand how it work---- WOW, she is not very smart while some of her books are on the best sellers list!!!!.
Let us look at the work of the smart ones. They found the answer!!!.
Mary possesses a unique relationship with ALL THE THREE PERSONS OF THE TRINITY, thereby giving Her a claim to the title of Queenship.
SHE WAS CHOSEN BY GOD THE FATHER TO BE THE MOTHER OF HIS SON; GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT CHOSE HER TO HIS VIRGINAL SPOUSE, GOD THE SON CHOSE HER TO BE HIS MOTHER.
Catholic online (the popes and the saints) note: they are by the thousands, and some are criminals read and you will find out!!!.
Wow, how do they know all those facts. Maybe someone been in heaven with God to know all this, then came back to earth and told someone which his name never revealed to anyone, because it is a secret matter. WHAT YOU THINK ?.
I hope that you will not claim that the Muslims are bashing or killing the North American Indians, or the Mayans and the Incas in the south, and stealing all the gold to build the churches, or slaving millions of Africans or killing hundred of millions by their advanced war machine in the many war which been fought all around the world, because that is not the truth. Most of the wars and the killings done by the Christians Under the banner of the cross. Everyone knows this fact.
I wonder how can someone follow the steps of those who slaved his people or wiped most of his people and treats who survived as less human, then comes to carry their banner and hate the ones who never done them any harm, and the ones who believe that all people are equal in the sight of God {that is the teachings of Islam}.
God bless you.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/12/08 5:52
A: Sam
Forgive me. I should have explained what I know to be the meaning of the term "Bible Bashing".
I have only heard the term when people mean
quoting verses of scripture in order to preach.
If you thought I meant demeaning the Bible,
I regret the misunderstandiing.
When I used the term Bible bashing, I was reacting to your saying
that people who say anything in anyway, will condemn themselves with their words.
I do not mind it when you quote the Bible.
I would not mind if you quoted the Coran.
What is, was, irritating, was that the quotes were not presented in a spirit of exchange, but in a more of proselytising and implying that those who do not heed the 'Word' are going to hell.
I've had Pentecostal neighbours flatout say " Its too bad that I'm going to hell ". To be spoken to in this fashion, in front of one's child is intolerable to me. I have low tolerance for rhetoric that quotes Scripture to imply someone is going to hell.
My initial invitation was for people to share something they'd learned about the Scripture, through text analysis, which they found interesting.
My invitation was not " let's proselytize each other to distraction ".
Your obvious need to keep absolute track of the logical flow of discussions shows your need to try to lock othe human beings into following you blindly as you interrogate them.
I do not engage in that kind of submission.
I shared about several of the commandments being on a tablet in Bagdad.
I shared about how the Celts came up with rabbits laying eggs.
Tid bits. Yes. Ones I found interesting when I did my studies.
Showing how historical analysis sheds light on present day social practices.
My invitation was not a wish to be preached at.
If I want to be preached at, I'll go to Church.
To conclude : again, I regret that the expression of Bible basing
was misunderstood. A better wording would have been
Verse Ping Pong. I hope my clarification helps.
I assure you that in the part of the North American continent that I come from, the term Bible Bashing means
to quote verses in ping pong fashion.
If I can offer further explanation of how I have a l l w a y s heard this expression used, please let me know. I regret the misunderstanding.
All I meant to say was ping ponging Bible verses in order to impose a point of view is something that people in Quebec are sensitive about,
b e c a u s e of our unique history with our Church.
To explain the sensitivity, may I give an example ?
I'll use a known figure from Quebec and hope you know of
her family.
Do you know of the singer Cline Dion ?
She comes from a family of over a dozen children.
The birthrate in Quebec families was very high because of the influence of the Church. When the birth-control pill came along, our birth rate fell to zero almost. Why? Because the burden of large families had partly been imposed by the Church. There was a kind of 'revolt' against the Church here. My mother-in-law didn't really know her mother. She was raised more by one of her sisters.
Sam, I will be away for a few days.
I am glad I checke the posts before leaving.
I would not have wanted to leave you without explaining how the term Bible Bashing is used where I live.
I should not have used the term.
Talk to you again.
Indie.
Name:Jonn •
Date: 01/19/08 3:43
A: I was surprise to find out the Jews Talmud (Anti -Christ Book) said about Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. When I compared what the Muslim Quran said about Jesus Christ.
It is the weirdest book (Talmud) I ever read. So how can they get peace and stable life in their country with denying Jesus? They are still paying the price! I am praying to the Lord to give them mercy and revelation. Our precious Jesus Christ gave us peace, salvation, Eternal life, healing to our spirit, soul and flesh. He changed our attitude and perception of this world. I dont have words to express my deep satisfaction after he changed my life. He is our bride and will come take us to live with Him. Bless be the almighty God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who gave us his only begotten son.
Name:Anchorite •
Date: 02/02/08 2:33
A: The concise version for my inquisitive Quebec chick.
Finno Ungric Blond types (and cute too) had to split Black Sea lickety split 7000 years ago when it flooded. Many settled Iraq. Hence spontaneous Sumerians and lack of origin.
Founded Free-masons, sort of.
The source of most major modern secret societies.
Now, surf milady.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 08/08/12 16:54
A: .
Wednesday August 8th 2012
Hi Sam.
Well, this is a return for me to this page after over 4 years. Cool.
Thanks again, so much, for introducing me to Prof. Bart Ehrman.
I had not heard of this former Evangelical, whose career as a historian and exegete (text analysis specialist) has brought him to now wish to see text analysis bring humanity to view ancient writings in a new light.
He seems absolutely driven to have humanity examine its various forms of literal interpretations of ancient texts;
I am in awe of his seeming fierce need to shine a light on exegesis. WOW.
I do not often say that word (wow).
I do not often use capital letters in this forum.
But, again, I just need to say : WOW !
Thank Sam.
Indie
.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 08/08/12 18:10
A: .
Wednesday August 8th 2012
Hi Sam.
I returned this morning to this page for the first time in 4 years.
Here is my 2nd post on this page in one day.
I am still listening to other Youtube lectures by the specialist you introduced me to, Dr. Bart Ehrman. What a character.
His approach is different, indeed, to mine.
I remember speaking of the 107-minute Youtube video by Dr. Robert Beckford.
Remember me speaking of that video?
Couple of years ago...
This link,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCXlFWBcxBo
is for that video.
Rober Beckford's presentation is a faith-friendly, introduction to text analysis.
Bart Ehrman's presentation on text analysis is a roller-coaster, wild, hand-on-for-your-life, ride.
I'm still smiling to myself as I think of the "in-your-face" approach of Ehrman.
I about fall off my chair listening to him.
Text analysis I learned about in 1977 when I began my studies was a breath of fresh air for me at the time;
however, the students in my classes who were 1st-year theology students always has a hard time during their first year.
We even has a name for the reaction 1st year students had to text analysis : we used to call it "the 1st-year-shock-in-Theology".
I remember well that some seudent found it so difficult to learn about text analysis, that some students would drop out before Christmas.
My Old Testament prof says that I was the first non-practicing Catholic to enroll in his text analysis courses. I was also the 1st girl.
The boys in the classes with me, were all studying to become priests.
They did not have much use for me because I refused to take any courses other than text analysis courses or history courses.
I am the only student to ever be granted permission to take a Master's level course. The boys in that master's level class (on John) actually laughed out loud when I walked into the class that September.
When the end of October rolled around, I got a B+ in my evaluation, the 2nd highest mark in the class. The boys stopped laughing at me after we go our exams back. By the spring, when studying for finals, the boys asked for permission for me to spend a study-evening in the boys-only seminary house where the future priests lived.
My Old Testament prof was the supervisor who lived in the house with the male students.
He said yes.
He told me years later that I am the only girl who ever stepped foot in the house where the male seminarians lived. I got the second highest mark on my final.
The boy who got the highest mark was a boy who never studied with the group. He was a loner.
He had never laughed at me at the beginning of the year.
He also refused to help me when I asked him for help once. :)
I wanted to study with him. He was tall and handsome. I think he saw me as a "temptress". He disapproved of our Old Testamet prof letting me study "with the boys".
He wrote me one note in the entire four years we were enrolled in theology together. It was in our last year. He called me "Yentle".
That name is from the title of a Barbra Streisand movie...
Aaaaanyway. I guess the next discussion we should have is :
Do the lectures of Professor Bart Ehrman and his text-analysis approach to the Bible logically lead to Islam?
To be continued.
I like this discussion.
See ya, Sam. Fun talking to you.
Indie
.
Name:sam •
Date: 08/09/12 0:37
A: Hello Indie,
I am glad and honored to come to talk to you on this site. I do learn a lot from you , thank you.
As for your question, "Do the lectures of Professor Bart Ehrman and his text-analysis approach to the Bible logically lead to Islam?"
The last three words, "Lead to Islam?".
I can see from watching his many debates and talks, that he is bringing alot of ideas which agree to what came in the Quran.
Quran- 2:79 So woe to those who write the 'scripture' with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.
Now, let us compare this with what Prof. Ehrman say in the following video:
A New Testament scholar proves what the Quran said about the bible 1400 years ago.
In the same video we will hear also from Dr. Jerald Dirks. very interresting.
another video to Dr. dirks:
A Christian Minister's Conversion to Islam - Dr. Jerald Dirks on TheDeenShow (Part 1)
.......
"Lead to Islam?" &/or "will Lead him to Islam?"
As for the second one, the answer is no one knows, he describe himself as 'agnostic'.
Muslim scholars approched him asking for debate, and his answer was 'he cannot do that since he never read or sudied the Quran', so, we have to wait and see if he will try to find the truth to come back to believe in God again.
While I am writing these words, and taking break in between I thought to discuss with you a subject about man [human] beliefs in total.
God bless you Indie.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 08/20/12 8:50
A: .
Monday August 20th 2012
Good morning Sam,
The Daniel Wallace / Bart Ehrman exchange on February 1st 2012, in North Carolina on the question 'Is The Original New Testament Lost?" is an exchange lasting 1hour, 56 minutes, 51 seconds long.
I've now watched it twice properly.
I've as well watched portions of it on 5 or 6 occasions: that is to say that on those occasions I have clicked the debate to begin playing in different places as I close my eyes fo the night and probably heard 10 minutes or so of the exchange before drifting off to sleep.
It is kind of fun to re-immerse myself in familiar text analysis method. Scholarship has come a long way since I did my studies in the 1980s. Technology available now allows much of the sorting of parchment fragments to be done with computers (instead of with gloves and twizers as it was back during the time I was a student).
The February 1st 2012 dialogue in North Carolina between Professors Wallace and Ehrman was a fun way for me to begin to bring myself up to date on how text analysis has evolved since 1980, when I was a student of text analysis in a Catholic university in Quebec, Canada.
I much admire the ability of Professors Wallace and Ehrman to come to the floor to give their respective opinion, yet eah displaying not just a willingness to hear the point of view of the other, but even a wish to hear the point of view of the other in case that other view can bring them to correct their view and improve their focus on how the Bible came to be.
They put the scholarship ahead of their own need to be right.
It is my impression that this respect for the work of "the other" is the same kind of respect that existed in the schools of translation back in the 11 and 12 hundreds, in the south of Spain, in Cordoba, between Arabic and Latin scholars.
The Arab scholar I learned about in my course on Islam was Ibn Rushd (Averroes). He was born in Cordoba (Spain) in 1126.
Wikipedia says this about Ibn Rushd (Averroes) :
" ʾAbū l-Walīd Muḥammad bin ʾAḥmad bin Rušd (Arabic: أبو الوليد محمد بن احمد بن رشد), better known just as Ibn Rushd (Arabic: ابن رشد), and in European literature as Averroes (play /əˈvɛroʊ.iːz/; April 14, 1126 – December 10, 1198),
was an Andalusian Muslim polymath; a master of Aristotelian philosophy, Islamic philosophy, Islamic theology, Maliki law and jurisprudence, logic, psychology, politics, Arabic music theory, and the sciences of medicine, astronomy, geography, mathematics, physics and celestial mechanics.
He was born in Córdoba, Al Andalus, modern-day Spain, and died in Marrakesh, Morocco. His school of philosophy is known as Averroism.
Ibn Rushd was a defender of Aristotelian philosophy against claims from the influential Islamic theologian Ghazali who attacked philosophy so it would not become an affront to the teachings of Islam."
It is my understanding that the proposed building in New York of a visitor's center called Cordoba House is meant to be a place of inter-faith dialogue.
I personally am NOT ready for inter-faith dialogue with Imam Rauf.
I would like to first see open and enlightened sharing between Muslim scholars on analysis of Islamic source writings.
Where is the Muslim scholarship and dialogue that is as transparent as the dialogue between Professors Wallace and Ehrman?
I like Imam Rauf. I trust his integrity. I respect his intelligence. I have confidence in his project.
It is my wish to see the project of Cordoba House in New York also include open dialogue between Muslim scholars similar to the open dialogue displayed between Professors Wallace and Ehrman in their February 1st, 2012 dialogue.
This is my prayer.
It is also my wish to one day visit Cordoba House.
Indie
.
Name:sam •
Date: 08/21/12 23:50
A: Hi Indie,
Thank you for the 2 posts which you wrote yesterday. I will try to answer some of your questions today, and I will answer the second post later on.
First, you are very educated, and you master the English language as I can see from your writings, And an ‘A+’ is what you get from me.
On the other side, my grade in English will never pass the ‘D’ mark at it is best. I never studied the English language properly [Uni. Level] , but a fast course for few months in England [the book is “Reader one”], and a little of grammar.
My answers always took a lot of time, and a lot of work, and it is very hard for me to translate my thoughts which are words in Arabic to English, and harder to find the right ONE WORD in English which I meant to bring.
I have ‘ 6' companions helping me writing,
1- The Bible.... 2- The Quran ....3- Oxford dictionary. 4- The New Webster’s thesaurus. 5- Wordperfect12. ... 6- The works of many people scholars or with knowledge who bring their knowledge to ‘youtube’ .
And I am learning a lot from you too.
Dear Indie,
You brought two excellent questions, and before giving my answer, I would like you to look at the meanings of the words ‘ANALYSIS’* , DIALOGUE’** , & ‘DEBATE ***. Oxf. Dict.
*- Detailed examination.
**- Conversation.
***- Hold formal argument.
“I would like to first see open and enlightened sharing between Muslim scholars on analysis of Islamic source writings.”
---- As for the ‘Islamic source writings’ which can be divided in two parts, the first is the Quran, the second is the Hadith.
As for the Quran, Muslim scholars who studied the book and done analysis to everything in it they all agree that this book is not the work, or the words of Muhammad, because of what it brings from knowledge which is far beyond the knowledge of anyone of that period of time, and they did not find any contradictions or errors, that finding also came by those who came to Islam, from Christians, Jews, Hindus and Buddhists, those who became scholars in the Islamic religion. To prove my point I bring the view of a former Christian who know the Quran.
From youtube:
The Glorious Qur'an - Laurence Brown - 1
Since all the scholars agree on everything that came in the Quran, and share the same view, then no need to do a public hearings, and saying so that not mean that many debates came between Muslims and Christians, and you can watch them on youtube.
But in the case of Hadith, the Muslim scholars been analyzing what was said by many and claim it to the prophet words, and they sort the Hadith into categories, “SAHIH... accurate”, “DOUBTFUL”... “FABRICATED”.
Muslims they understand that the Quran is their only holy book, and from the Hadith they can reject anything if does not agree with the Quran. [I mentioned this to you before, hope that you remember]
Of course those three [accurate, doubtful, fabricated] that is what the Christian scholars found in what the writers of the Gospels say about Jesus saying, and they came with the forth Gospel with different colors , red, gray & black.. I mentioned that before.
“Where is the Muslim scholarship and dialogue that is as transparent as the dialogue between Professors Wallace and Ehrman?.”
----- Above you mentioned ‘dialogue’, while it was a real ‘debate’, and it wasn’t a conversation but a real argument. That is what been mentioned in youtube:
The Reliability of the New Testament (An Overview of the Ehrman vs Wallace Debate)
Is The Original New Testament Lost? :: A Dialogue with Dr. Bart Ehrman & Dr. Daniel Wallace
------ The heading above [the second video] was mentioned as ‘dialogue’ , but soon after the presentation of both scholars, Mr. Oneil say , “However it is a debate”. He like to call it dialogue, but he knows that what he is going to see ‘ a full formal argument’.
As for the dialogue between Muslim scholars they do not need to do any , since they are all agree and accept the Quran as the words of God, they do not debate each other, but there are many debates with the Christians and Hindus,
In my ‘wordperfect12' I keep a record for various debates, so I can go back and look at them again. Here some:
DEBATES:
MUSLIMS VS CHRISTIANS.
- Muhammed in the bible - Ahmed Deedat 1 of 11
- Muslim-Christian Debate 10/14
- Dr Zakir Naik vs Dr william Cambell part 4 (1of 6)
- Bible God’s word ? - Deedat vs Swaggert 1 - 23
- Is Jesus God ? - Ahmed Deedat vs Eric Bock 1 of 17
- Is Jesus God ? Ahmed Deedat vs Anis Sorrosh 1 - 22
- Is the Bible the word of God - Deedat vs Sjoberg 1 of 24
- Was Christ crucified ? Deedat vs Floyd 1 of 11
- Sami Zaatari vs Dr James White: ‘Jesus: divine son of God or great prophet of Allah ‘
- Christian Muslim debate 1 {Jamal Badawi} ****see # 3/12 important
- pt 1 of 18 / Dave Hunt vs. Shabir Ally / Christianity vs Islam debate
- Faithe under fire : who was Jesus ? Divine or prophet ? Mike Licona vs Shabir Ally.
- Shabir Ally vs Jay Smith - debate part 1/3
- William Lane Craig vs Jamal Badawi (HQ) 1/11
- The Intelligence Squared Debate (1 of 5) Hitchens, Fry, Widdecombe, Onaiyekan on the Catholic
- Debate - William Lane Craig vs Christopher Hitchens - Does God Exist?
- part 1 - Craig Evans vs. Bart Ehrman debate: does the new testament misquote Jesus ?
- Concept of God in Islam vs. Christianity (part 1)
- Christianity vs Catholicism - purgatory 1-9
- History of Bible 1/10 {Bart Ehrman: Stanford university’s office for religious life.
Scribes who altered scripture and readers who may never know.
April 25, 2007}
- Is the Trinity in the Old Testament Debate: Scholars Vs. Trinitarian Fundamentalist
- Is God a trinity ? (debate - part 1 of 12 )...... Brant Bosserman vs Sean Finnegan [Seatle WA June 2008.
Faith under fire: does the Trinity make sense ?
Dr. William Lane vs Rabbi Tovia Singer
......................................-..............................
MUSLIM-S- VS HINDU.
- Concept of God in Hinduism and Islam 1/22 {Dr. Zakir Naik vs. Sri Sri Ravi Shankar}
This debate shows that Muhammad name was mentioned in the Hindus scriptures, also the name Muslims was mentioned too, and that was long before Christianity and Islam.
That very interesting to know, Since also Jesus mentioned the coming of the ‘Helper’ , and the Christians point out that it was about the coming of the holy spirit, and how can they claim this when Jesus did not mention the holy spirit ?, and how they know that it is the holy spirit ?, or just creates what they like.
With these words , I send you my best regards, and God bless you.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 08/23/12 14:23
A: .
August 23rd 2012
Hello Sam
Our exchanges happen in my dominant language. I can see how much care and work you put into your posts. I have lived years of my life, as the child of a military man, in situations where I communicated in my 2nd language, or 3rd language. I understand that you are not writing in your 1st language. I am humbled by how well you do in your posts, to express complex thought.
A question about your list given above :
- in the portion of the list on Muslim / Christian exchanges, you include
the Shabir Ally / Jay Smith debate.
Does this refer to the "Who is the true Jesus?" debate?
I ask because I just found this one myself today and am listening to it.
The distinction you make between dialogue, debate and argument is valid.
Because the exchanges are done in such a way as to allow the audience the freedom to think what it wants,
I would qualify the Ehrman / Wallace exchange as a debate.
I would qualify the Ally / Smith exchange as a debate.
Not arguments.
Peace,
Indie
.
Name:sam •
Date: 08/26/12 20:08
A: Hello Indie,
Thank you.
To answer your question,
“The Shabir Ally / Jay Smith debate. Does this refer to the "Who is the true Jesus?" debate?”
I went back to look at that debate, and I did find that there are two debates between Ally & Smith:
– Shabbir Ally vs Jay Smith - DEBATE Part 1 of 3
Islam or Christianity - Which Promotes Peace Part 1 of 3 -Debate held on 28 June 2008
– Who is the true Jesus? [ Full Debate Shabir Ally & Jay Smith ]
Shabir Ally and Jay Smith [ Debate; Who is the true Jesus?, ]
The first is about ,’which religion promotes peace’, and the second is about ‘Jesus’, and this what I am going to watch now.
Just after few minute from the start of the debate [About Jesus], Mr. Smith brought the O.T. and the N.T. to prove the deity of Jesus, and as He is the son of God, and as always been done, he brought what other Christian scholars say!, [what do they know, do they know who is really Jesus more than Jesus Himself, and his family, and the close followers ???], But by watching other debates, I understand that many tried to prove the deity of Jesus, and the Trinity from the Old & the New testaments, but there are other Christian scholars who do not agree.
Dr. Craig admits that the trinity is not found in the old testament [please watch this video]
And of course we can go to look at Bart Ehrman debates, and the many others and see if we can trust the Bible including the Gospels.
Dr. Burt Ehrman said: “God gave us a brain, lets use it”.
I thought this video is nice to watch too:
Is The Bible Reliable? (1/2) MUST SEE
PEACE, IN ISLAM AND CHRISTIANITY.
Dear Indie, you know that when I read a book or watch a debate I always try to go on my own search for the truth, and for the word “PEACE”, I went to look at the Quran and the Gospels [Matthew, Mark, Luke and John].
My finding as the following:
The Gospels:
............................
Mat. 5:24 Sorry, I am finding some difficulties.
Here what I read from the New testament book which I have in front of me: let me give it #1
5:24- ...first be reconciled to your brother.
5:24- ...first go and make peace with your brother. [that is what I read on the screen from KJB], and this is #2.
Also:
8:13- #1 - And Jesus said to the centurion, “Go; it shall be done...
8:13- #2 - And Jesus said to the captain , go in peace.
10:34 -[ # 1&2 both agree].Do not have the thought that I have come to send peace on the earth; I came not to send peace but a sword.
I do not agree that these words came from Jesus, and what came in 10:35 after cannot be His words.
Mark-
5:34 Go in peace.
9:50- ... Be at peace with one another.
Luke-
1:28 ...peace be with you...
2:14- ...on the earth peace among men...
7:50- .... go in peace.
8:4.8- ... go in peace.
10:5- ...peace be to this house.
12:51- Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth ?, I tell you, no, but rather division.
[I do not believe that Jesus said these words]
19:38- ...peace in heaven...
24:36- .....peace be with you.
John-
4:50 [ #1&2 differ], ...go in peace....
20:19/21/26 - ...may peace be with you....
Most of what I read above is a sort of greeting and wishing-well.
The Quran:
................................
4:90 - ....So if they remove themselves from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not made for you a cause for fighting against them.
5:16 - By which Allah guides those who pursue HIS pleasure to the ways of peace....
8:61 - And if they incline to peace, then incline to it, and rely upon Allah [God].
13:24 - Peace be upon you for ....
19:15 - And peace be upon Him [Jesus] the day he was born and the day he dies and the day he is raised alive.
20:47 - .....And peace upon him who follows the guidance.
25:63 - And the servants of the Most Merciful are those who walk upon the earth easily, and when the ignorant address them harshly, they say words of peace.
28:25 - .....”For us are our deeds, and for you are your deeds. Peace will be upon you; we seek not the ignorant.”
36:58 - “peace,” a word from a Merciful Lord.
37:180/181 - Exalted is your Lord, the Lord of might, above what they describe. And peace upon the messengers.
43:88/89 - ......”O my Lord, indeed these are a people who do not believe.” So turn aside from them and say, “peace.” But they are going to know.
What I read above, mainly talk about “peace” in term of how should people conduct themselves when they do not agree, and when there is a conflict, and it show that God asks for peace [36:58].
As for the Bible [the O.T.], I am not going to look for the word “peace” within its pages, because if someone read my new post “The Quran or the Bible” will sure see that there are a lot more of wars and killings and hate, than there is peace.
