Name:truth •
Title: Islamic and Jewish views •
Date posted: 03/07/07 16:08
Q: What are some of the Islamic and Jewish views on the topic?
Name:roy •
Date: 03/16/07 14:02
A: ISLAMIC VIEW
James Cameron not knowingly or intentionally overlaps his claims on İslam religion. The findings of him may or may not be the real tomb of Jesus( personally I think remote possibility~ because if it was; it should have been known and respected by people for two thousand years).
We believe Jesus died and ascended to God, however not by crucifying but by natural death, after defeating enemy and well establishing His message to masses. we muslims believe that Bible once was the word of God but severely manupulated, and ammended by interest laden priests, and changed the main message of it. Yet still some sentences are original. Please continue your searches till something hits you for sure word of God. I recommend our book Qoran for review. If you still have some doubts call back again to me, if you are satisfied pray for me too.
http://www.amazon.com
search- for Qoran hardcover
http://www.the-holyquran.org/
Jesus- was a human being who was created resembling creation as Adam, made as God‘s speacial envoy and word. He was subject to death and resurrection as all other humans at the dooms day.[3:59]
He was not killed or crucified but the scenery was recepted as if he was crucified. In reality, he was never slayed, the person killed was resembled to him in the views of the enemy Israelites.[4:157,158]
He was not killed by enemies but survived till the natural death. [19:33]God has taken his life. They were not defeated by the enemies but on the contrary him and his supporter disciples and israelites defeated the enemies.[61:14]
These are the statements written 1430 years ago by Quran. It is believed by heart by billions of muslims, as a prerequisite to be accepted into Islam. Maybe out of bias, or fear of sameness they prefer to ignore what is claimed. It is surprising that modern world is barely aware of this fact or they blind their eyes with superstition. Christ, his disciples and his followers were also muslims who were ordered with salat (prayer) and zekat ( voluntary wealth distribution).
The views above is supported with the related verses of Quran as below. Some of the ideas has been tought by various western writers,which are noted as well.
Sura - 4 Women (Al-Nesaa')
[4:157] And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - They slew him not nor crucified, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain,
[4:158] Instead, GOD raised him to Him; GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.
[4:159] Everyone among the people of the scripture was required to believe in him before his death. On the Day of Resurrection, he will be a witness against them.
[4:171] O people of the scripture, do not transgress the limits of your religion, and do not say about GOD except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was a messenger of GOD, and His word that He had sent to Mary, and a revelation from Him. Therefore, you shall believe in GOD and His messengers. You shall not say, "Trinity." You shall refrain from this for your own good. GOD is only one god. Be He glorified; He is much too glorious to have a son. To Him belongs everything in the heavens and everything on earth. GOD suffices as Lord and Master.
Sura - 19 Mary (Maryam)
[19:33] And peace be upon me the day I was born, the day I die, and the day I get resurrected."
[19:34] That was Jesus, the son of Mary, and this is the truth of this matter, about which they continue to doubt.
[19:35] It does not befit GOD that He begets a son, be He glorified. To have anything done, He simply says to it, "Be," and it is.
[19:36] He also proclaimed, "GOD is my Lord and your Lord; you shall worship Him alone. This is the right path."
*19:36 This is similar to the statement attributed to Jesus in the Gospel of John 20:17.
Sura - 5 The Feast (Al-Ma'edah)
[5:72] Pagans indeed are those who say that GOD is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah himself said, "O Children of Israel, you shall worship GOD; my Lord and your Lord." Anyone who sets up any idol beside GOD, GOD has forbidden Paradise for him, and his destiny is Hell. The wicked have no helpers.
*Look at the sameness of Kuran: Sura - 5 ( The Feast ) Al-Ma'edah and Bible Matta 7:21-23
*5:72-76 In John 20:17, we see that Jesus taught that he was neither God, nor the son of God. Many theologians have concluded, after careful research, that today's Christianity is not the same Christianity taught by Jesus. Two outstanding books on this subject are "The Myth of God Incarnate" (The Westminster Press, Philadelphia, 1977) and The "Mythmaker" (Harper & Row, New York, 1986). On the front jacket of "The Mythmaker" we read the following statement:
" ...Hyam Maccoby presents new arguments to support the view that Paul, not Jesus, was the founder of Christianity....it was Paul alone who created a new religion through his vision of Jesus as a divine Saviour who died to save humanity."
Sura - 3 The Amramites ( Ali-'Imran)
[3:55] Thus, GOD said, "O Jesus, I am terminating your life, raising you to Me, and ridding you of the disbelievers. I will exalt those who follow you above those who disbelieve, till the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is the ultimate destiny of all of you, then I will judge among you regarding your disputes.
[3:59] The example of Jesus, as far as GOD is concerned, is the same as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, "Be," and he was.
[3:60] This is the truth from your Lord; do not harbor any doubts.
Sura - 61 The Column (Al-Suff)
[61:6] Recall that Jesus, son of Mary, said, "O Children of Israel, I am GOD's messenger to you, confirming the Torah and bringing good news of a messenger to come after me whose name will be even more praised (Ahmad)." Then, when he showed them the clear proofs, they said, "This is profound magic."
*Sameness of Sura - 61 The Column (Al-Suff) and Bible İsiah 45:21,22
Psalm 99:9 Timothy 1:17 good news fro sneding another prophet called Ahmad(Hz Mohammad) or Pheraklid (praised)= Ahmad
[61:14] O you who believe, be GOD's supporters, like the disciples of Jesus, son of Mary. When he said to them, "Who are my supporters towards GOD," they said, "We are GOD's supporters." Thus, a group from the Children of Israel believed, and another group disbelieved. We helped those who believed against their enemy, until they won.
Sura - 3 The Amramites ( Ali-'Imran)
[3:51] "GOD is my Lord and your Lord; you shall worship Him alone. This is the right path."
[3:52] When Jesus sensed their disbelief, he said, "Who are my supporters towards GOD?" The disciples said, "We are GOD's supporters; we believe in GOD, and bear witness that we are submitters / muslims."
*3:51 This is precisely what Jesus is quoted to say throughout the New Testament. See for example the Gospel of John 20:17, and the book "Jesus: Myths and Message" by Lisa Spray, Ch. 4 (Universal Unity, Fremont, CA 1992).
Muslims neither tout peace love or utopia nor intolerant to other religions. i m not fanatic muslim or deep rooted inconvincable theologian but just a common muslim, objective in observations, searching for the truth. 25 christian or secular states emerged after 600 years rule of islamic Ottoman rule; todays people didnt fly there all from rest of europe, only this simple fact must prove you islam has been tolerant and at equal distance to all human being. israel, lebenan were two of them lived close to thousand years under muslim authority, jewish and christians were there having own temples without any complaint in peace with no fight, under simple lutenant soldier governance. Look now what is happening for the last 40 years after muslim left.
The suicidal attacks are burdening to islam reputation not supporting nor representing any good values, however it is way below to shadow the open and enlightening message Qoran gives out.
Suicidal elements are commenting upon the false attributes to their faith. They have to keep their life as well as not to attack those who does not force or help these; oust from their homes. These are one of the few alowance to kill others. Killing himself is forbidden and punished at forever hell, according to the belief. They even kill their fellow muslims claiming they are not enough or upto their muslim standards. They are comparably minimal problems addressing racizm, fanatic jewism, anti-semitizm or evangelism which claims millions of lives each year?
There are several miracles mentioned in Quran at year of 620 AD. Some barely understood today, and many of the mysteries yet to be solved.
-Expansion of universe
-Creation from a nucleus
-Eclipses, paths of planets, galaxies
-Dual sexes of everything created
-Relativity of Time
-Flowing journey of sun in a path
-Source of light of sun; reflecting feature of moon
-Possibility of lunar voyage
-Surface layers to the pit
-Elipsoid shape of earth, arctic basins are at lower altitude
-Feature of wind as carrier of seed
-Measure of rain fall equals 500 million liter/year
-Water curtain at waterpasses between seas
-Flow of current at deep sea, darkness of depth
-Feature of mountains as balancing weight to the earth surface
-Movements of mountains as clouds, departing continents
-Earthquake break lines
-Evolution of petroleum
-Photosynthesis of plants
-Breathing is uneasy at increased altitudes
-Environmental problems as a result of man fault. Warning “keep the balance”
-Sexes in plants
-Female bee making the hove
-Communication ability in birds and ants…
-Texture of man from earth and water
-Creation starting from water
-Phases of baby creation in the womb
-Identification on tips of fingers
-Love between the couples
-Groups intermingle with marriages
-Spread of mankind from city of Mecca
-Sabeans, Magrib dam catastrophy,
-Yemen Ad Comunity Extinction Lost Pillars found recent years
-Lut Comunity, Sodom Gomorah being the lowest point on earth surface Jordan
-Haman name (Vice president for Paroah) revelas recently Egypt
-Paroah of Egypt killed at Red sea finding. His corpse analysed as hit to the rocks and left at sea for a long time
-Old testament and new testament correction, amendment of stories
-Romans good news of victory over Persians within 3-9 years that happend.
-Transporting of matter in light speeds
-Possibility of death of stars and sun
-Boiling of oceans as a scientific result of global warming caused by icebergs melt or at resurrection day
-Big bang and big inner downfall
-Seven layers above sky, and beneath earth down to pit.
These miraculous explanations may not awe you still? however you better check if they pass in Quran or not. There were many miracles performed at the time of Prophet Mohammed, but we cant prove them today scientifically, so I let them unmentioned.
(The idology only consist of Quran, no other additives of hadith and Shiriah laws which many muslim believes human inventions attributed to Islam but has no truth in them. The basis is only Quran)
I say There is one and only one God. Prophets ,including Jesus, Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isiak, Esmail, Moses, David, Solomon, and Mohammed were His slaves and prophets among whom we accept no prerogative of any sort. I think we can understand God from his reflections, arts, doings, traces, ruling and His science on earth. Our eyes and mind is not designed to see Him fully, but feel Him like air, electricity, radioactivity, heat etc.. He made the books to be understood easily by common man. He wants us to obey the religions brought & implemented by prophets ~ as sample living humans.
God forgives all sins except heretics of trinity. Trias is strictly forbidden in Islam and said is the continuous pitfall in all previous religions, often lured many believers. It holds the same danger for muslims loving too much of anchestors, priests, or prophets to make them equal or germane in ranking to God. Even asking a wish from those deities are biggest sin committed against God. He warns in hundreds of verses of Quran and Bible to avoid this pitfall or else you wont be forgiven. (Killing may be forgiven but deity worshipping not.) So please be ware of this threat from God and check your books better.You are especially a person to lead the crowd and want to be closer to God. You will get the burden of each person you‘ve diverted too. True Christianity never offered equal deity to God. Christ was praying to God for help, why should he have done, if He had been a god himself? Jesus never said pray to me, ask from me. Please check the following Bible verses: Matta 7:21-23
Psalm 99:9
Timothy 1:17
Isiah 45:21,22
In logic, islam, and all modern justice system, there is one simple rule, noone may be hold responsible or punished for others crimes.
Even someone says “I want to atone for other person” (mother to son, son to father, lover to lover) do you accept it? Why God should?
On the other hand why human must have a sin as prerequisite and if had, not be able to save himself / herself by prayer? Or if will be saved by atonement of Jesus eventually, why to care to be a better person not commit sins?
Whichever perspective you look at the made-up belief by Byzantene ruler and council of yours, is misleading.
There is only same God; Adams, Noahs, Abrahams,christian or muslim version of it is meaningless. You accept or not it is the One and Same. The problem starts at adding some deity besides God.
Why should God be so complex not to be understood by common man? Does He address only to the scholars? If so why He held the common responsible what He says and forbids? Is He so cruel to punish those from which reasons that common people has no clue to understand?
Islam has brought the most clear understanding of God and definition of Christ for whom who wants to find out or whom God wants to reveal and let him be.
Saying God is three in one context but, One made up of three, no one can realise what is going on… How is three agree on ruling on universe that there is no disagreement between them? If God decides to extinct Jesus and Virgin Mary who will stop Him from it? How three in spiritual and matter decided to come together to send somepart of three among those miniscule sized peasants and didnt guess one piece of God will be killed there by torture? Wasnt there any other way to save people from sins rather to sacrifice one piece of God? How was it done before Christ (are they only comunity to be saved as majority of jews also claim as favored nation)? One of gods gave up divine and such sort of things are just fables from the Greek mythology. Is there any thema difference in stories with Zeus who hypothetically lived on Olympos, some other god had stolen fire from him, and such nonsence and complex stories. (Some Greeks gave rebirth a new religion on that belief and ask recognition by parliament in Greece today.)
Christian Church claims The gospels, most especially John, indicate that Christ was not taken because the "peasants" (actually the temple guard and probably some Roman soldiers as well) over powered Him, but because He went to his death willingly. “
Guard, soldier ect.. has no difference than peasant comparing with God as former are made up all from human. No matter what is the position of human ~ temple guard or Roman soldiers or even todays atomic powered soldiers may not possibly over power even small evidence of God let alone God himself.
“Going to his death willingly” is another made-up story. Too unlogical to be devine. All science, philosophy, antropology, history, logic, nature, biolgy, cosmology, physics, theology (christianity except this incident) strives the essence of existance not extinction, natural selection, wish of living - not dieing.
On the contrary Christ must ask God to live on to save his people by preaching (He lived and won over non believers~Islamic view, otherwise no christians would have been mentioned today~my opinion). Moses, and Abraham has been saved by God with two miracles ( Red sea divide and fire becoming serene.)
If our prophet does something “going to his death willingly” we must wish the same thing as good followers. Why don’t you dare to wish some unlogical thing then?;
We will all go death willingly to save others!!
I hope it helps the claims of Jesus was a dieable, marryable, child conceive causable and tomb burriable (yet to be proven) human with flesh and blood created by God’s word to Mary.
I believe the brotherhood to be adhered by man of any race, wealth, religion or sex. Beause they are equal and only be better than other in terms of observing God’s wishes. The religions come from same God although Jewish and Christians refuse to accept it, Islam is saying similar things plus improvement open to scientific evidence and criticism of any sort (except depicting or dishonoring holy figures). God does not need peoples recognition of the latest versions of what He says. That’s why He says keep your own faith as Christian or Jew but don’t commit sin of Trinity or false claims against Me or Jesus because I am the only One. He does not accept religions from those who curses Him in that Trias way, and will not forgive those (only sin NOT to be forgiven) .
If the trias is not accepted at Byzantene time Council 300 AD. It would have been less likely to get acceptance by plural gods greek society of that time and would have been difficult to unite them. Imperialism was on the scene that time, not now.
On the other hand if Church didnt defend their position strongly against other religions, there would have been no reason of existence of them and the priests and kings had to give up huge wealth and power over society. The latter religion forbids any devine class, rabbis, or super powered ruler, not to mention some papacy who claim to be the shadow and replica of God on earth! (another form of Imperialism)
Mentioning "Lord's tomb" Have you thought of why a Lord= God could probably have been able to killed by poor peaseants and might have a tomb. If God or piece of God have been killed, should nt be the universe collapse within itself? Or shouldnt have God almighty take revenge of comparingly the little atomic sized enemy of God who killed God? Trying to support dogma of bible you are way off the scientific approach, let alone critisizing the producers efforts searching for the truth.
On the other hand, personally I dont think it is the real tomb of Jesus, no matter the science supports them. The reason is if it was, the people should have been respecting the place, turn it into a temple, make a lot of publicism about it that no one can hide since 50 AD.
However the discussion of it reveals many false beliefs for Jesus about crusification, and reality. Their job is well done and mission accomplished at that dogmas should be questioned.
Mariamne was the name of the supposedly wife of Christ who was from Magdala, the names day is still celebrated in Greek Orthodox church. Director say, the scientists at 1980 didnt know it means the same thing (Mariamne = Maria Magdalene), untill recently Harvard professors find this fact out.
It makes your life pass easy if you believe in some kind of superior creator. Even child brain start asking questions from 2 years old, realising the substance, matters, life, logic may not just “happen” out of nowhere.
After loosing every living around when they die, it is easier to bear reality to accept the rejoining with loved ones as a compensation from God beyond death.
It is more soothing that there is a revenge taker on our behalf if there is something went wrong against us. If you trust to your state systems or uncles or gods inside self for these things; you may understand soon that you were missled terribly.
Hope it gave you some clues.
However the importance of the concept is Christ was not any God. God strongly forbids paradise; anyone who claims Christ or any partner share to His Throne. Hundreds of verses written on this topic only because of people have diverted from the true path. Early Christians have changed the Bible according to power hungry Byzantene ruler & bishops wishes at year around 300 AD. The hypothesis and proof of Christ created fatherless but to be a mere human being is very important to us from this point. Quran persistently renounces the notion of “Trias” and defines it as the only unforgivable sin could be made to Him. Overloving Jesus by his followers brought him to the stage sharing power of God. It remains the same mistake and danger for Muslims to their prophets or imams.
Each of the primary religions teach the same general rule, but perhaps uses different words and stories to give examples of how to live those virtues.
2 AL BAQARAH (The Heifer). 213
3 AL `IMRAN (The Family of `Imran). 19
2 AL BAQARAH (The Heifer). 213 Mankind was one single nation, and Allah sent Messengers with glad tidings and warnings; and with them He sent the Book in truth, to judge between people in matters wherein they differed; but the People of the Book, after the clear Signs came to them, did not differ among themselves, except through selfish contumacy. Allah by His Grace guided the Believers to the Truth, concerning that wherein they differed. For Allah guides whom He will to a path that is straight.
3 AL `IMRAN (The Family of `Imran). 19 The religion before Allah is Islam (submission to his will): nor did the People of the Book dissent therefrom except through envy of each other, after knowledge had come to them. But if any deny the Signs of. Allah, Allah is swift in calling to account.
We as muslims does NOT claim ‘ we are sole candidates for paradise and only muslims entitled to go there ~ all the other believers will go to hell’. On the contrary the Quran says paradise wil be filled with mostly from the previous devotees and less from the latters. That means those people who deserve heaven are from Prophets Adam…, Abrahams’ religion ~jewish, christians ect..~ whom we believe they were also on path of islam. Catholics belive only they are the “good citizens” of paradise!
(56 AL WAQI`AH (The Inevitable) 1- 14),
(2 AL BAQARAH (The Heifer). 136)
2 AL BAQARAH (The Heifer). 62
Secondly all the faith devotees will be valued on basis of their belief (not up to Quranic verses). It is even urged that others (jewish for example) must keep their faith if they choose to and seek its rules closely.
62 AL JUMU`AH (Friday). 5
5 AL MA'IDAH (The Repast). 48
16 AL NAHL (The Bees). 93
22 AL HAJJ (The Pilgrimage). 67
SUPPORTING QURANIC VERSES MENTIONED ABOVE;
13 AL RA`D (The Thunder). 36 Those unto whom We gave the Scripture rejoice in that which is revealed unto thee. And of the clans there are who deny some of it. Say: I am commanded only that I serve Allah and ascribe unto Him no partner. Unto Him I cry, and unto Him is my return.
(56 AL WAQI`AH (The Inevitable) 1- 14)
When the Event inevitable Cometh to pass,
Then will no (soul) entertain falsehood concerning its coming.
(Many) will it bring low; (many) will it exalt;
When the earth shall be shaken to its depths,
And the mountains shall be crumbled to atoms,
Becoming dust scattered abroad,
And ye shall be sorted out into three classes.
Then (there will be) the Companions of the Right Hand; what will be the Companions of the Right Hand?
And the Companions of the Left Hand, what will be the Companions of the Left Hand?
And those Foremost (in Faith) will be foremost (in the Hereafter).
These will be those Nearest to Allah:
In Gardens of Bliss:
A NUMBER OF PEOPLE FROM THOSE OF OLD,
AND A FEW FROM THOSE OF LATER TIMES.
2 AL BAQARAH (The Heifer). 136 Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma`il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord: we make no difference between one and another of them: and we bow to Allah (in Islam).
2 AL BAQARAH (The Heifer). 62 Those who believe (in the Quran), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians, any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord: on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
62 AL JUMU`AH (Friday). 5 The similitude of those who were charged with the (obligations of the) Mosaic Law, but who subsequently failed in those (obligations), is that of a donkey which carries huge tomes (but understands them not). Evil is the similitude of people who falsify the Signs of Allah: and Allah guides not people who do wrong.
5 AL MA'IDAH (The Repast). 48 To thee we sent the scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed. He would have made you a single people, but (his plan is) to test you in what he hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is he that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;
16 AL NAHL (The Bees). 93- If Allah so willed, he could make you all one people: but he leave straying whom he pleases, but ye shall certainly be called to account for all your actions.
22 AL HAJJ (The Pilgrimage). 67 To every people have We appointed rites and ceremonies which they must follow: let them not then dispute which thee on the matter, but do thou invite (them) to thy Lord: for thou art assuredly on the right way.
2 AL BAQARAH (The Heifer). 213 Mankind was one single nation, and Allah sent Messengers with glad tidings and warnings; and with them He sent the Book in truth, to judge between people in matters wherein they differed; but the People of the Book, after the clear Signs came to them, did not differ among themselves, except through selfish contumacy. Allah by His Grace guided the Believers to the Truth, concerning that wherein they differed. For Allah guides whom He will to a path that is straight.
3 AL `IMRAN (The Family of `Imran). 19 The religion before Allah is Islam (submission to his will): nor did the People of the Book dissent therefrom except through envy of each other, after knowledge had come to them. But if any deny the Signs of. Allah, Allah is swift in calling to account.
Name:Nate Spain •
Date: 03/16/07 15:39
A: The truth of this matter is that there is a difference of opinion within the Islamic world about what happened to Jesus. There is one verse of the Quran, in particular, that Muslims dispute over:
"And We made the son of Mary and his mother as a Sign: We gave them both shelter on high ground, affording rest and security and furnished with springs" (Quran, Chapter 23, verse 51, Yusuf Ali translation)
Here's another translation of that same verse:
"And We made the son of Mary and his mother a Sign, and gave them shelter on an elevated land of valleys, and springs of running water." (Qur'an, Chapter 23, verse 51, Maulvi Sher Ali translation)
Kashmir. The above verse of the Qur'an gives a hint as to precisely where Jesus and Mary gained "shelter." And that is, Kashmir. In fact, it is an exact description of the Valley of Kashmir.
Now, the latter translation was done by a man who belongs to a sect of Islam that the majority of the Muslims hate with a passion: the Ahmadiyya Community. The majority Muslims (more correctly, the majority priests and institutions) disagree with them.
But, as a piece of evidence, I think the Qur'an can be looked upon not necessarily as a scripture, but just as a book. There have been PBS documentaries that showed that the Bible correctly recorded the existence of places that, today, you can't find on the map. But, eventually, archaeologists found those places, thus confirming that particular Biblical verse.
So was the case once with Quran, when some archaeologists used Quran simply as book that gave a clue regarding the existence of a certain civilization (I think the Ad people, as I recall). The archaeologists discovered, I think the ruins of the people of Ad, and this proved that that civilization actually existed.
Now, with regard to the above verse, let's look at the Quran only as a book, not as a scripture. It could very well be that it might have been known that Jesus had travelled to India. And all that Quran did was record what was already known, and what people already talked about.
Indeed, that is what I think happened: Though the verse is now "spiritualized," and, at least to Ahmadiyya Muslims, gives the stamp of God on their particular interpretation of that verse, what is more likely is that a tradition regarding Jesus' escape to Kashmir had long been in existence throughout that ancient world. Then "Allah" put his stamp of approval on that tradition, and it got written down in the Quran.
Whatever one might think about the Kashmir theory, that verse of Quran gives an exact description of Kashmir--the place where the Roza Bal tomb now exists, and where many people believe Jesus is buried. See www.tombofjesus.com .
(Now, before you Sunnis and Ahmadiyyas start duking it out, PLEASE realize that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad DID NOT INVENT the theory of Jesus in Kashmir. The documents relating to a visit of Jesus to Kashmir, after his crucifixion, existed long before Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was born. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad invented nothing. All he did was gather some of the documents, and write a book. The oral tradition of the people of Kashmir had long stated that Yuz Asaf and Isa (Jesus) were one and the same person, and that Yuz Asaf lay dead and buried in the Roza Bal tomb).
There is yet another verse of Quran that some people believe points to an association of Jesus with Kashmir, though this is kind of a stretch:
"When the angels said, 'O Mary, Allah gives thee glad tidings of a son through a Word from Him; his name shall be the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, honoured in this world and in the next, and of those who are granted nearness to God." (Quran, Chapter 3, verse 46).
Jesus was never honored in this world, while he was alive. Afterwords, yes. But, while he was live (which, I believe, is what the verse is alluding to) he was NOT honored...or was he?
In Israel he was certainly not honored. Is there any place that he may have been honored, during his life? There are some who believe that Jesus was a Prince who was destined to the throne of Kashmir. They equate Jesus with a Kashmiri king. This belief is not proven yet, though Suzanne Olsson, in her upcoming book (and her previous version), claims to show a connection.
Why would Jesus have been a Kashmir prince, destined for the Kashmiri throne? Beats the hell out of me!! But, when one considers that Jews lived in Kashmir then (had been scattered there); and when one considers that Jesus, according to Notovitch's alleged Jesus Scrolls," came to that area **before** the crucifixion, then perhaps, by SOME "right," it was his destiny to ascend to the throne of Kashmir.
Is it possible that the Bible gives any clue of Jesus' prince-hood, or king-hood? There is an interesting exchange between Pilate and Jesus:
"Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews?
[34] Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me?
[35] Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?
[36] Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
[37] Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice."
In the above exchange between Pilate and Jesus, Jesus never once denied being a king. Naturally, Christian interpretation of "not from hence" is that Jesus meant that his kingdom was "in heaven."
But is that what he was saying? Perhaps there was a double meaning:
1. His Way; his teaching, the kingdom of righteousness that he envisoned for people **here on earth** was spiritually above the current world's kingdoms.
2. He was speaking of **somewhere else.***
He was speaking of Kashmir. Remember, Biblical prophets could also be kings: Solomon, David, etc. These people were wordly kings, in addtion to being prophets, and they had worldly power.
Maybe one day more work will be done in studying Kashmir and Indian documents, as well as the Roza Bal tomb itself. We shall see.
Now, before anyone starts screaming, "Oh, this is ridiculous," I am sorry to have to say this, but if anyone wished to be nasty against Christian doctrine (and I don't), then the same statement could be made about the following:
1. A human being is nailed to a cross (okay, cool)
2. He dies on the cross (okay, cool)
3. After dying, he descends into hell (uh...any pictures?)
4. After descending into hell, this DEAD human being, comes back to life. (uh...dead people DO NOT come back to life. They're DEAD)
5. After this dead man comes back to life, he walks around, and he eats food (fish and a honeycomb). Dead people do not eat--or walk..
6. After coming back to life, walking around, and eating, his physical body floats up, out of sight, into the sky, on its way to heaven
7. This dead-man-come-back-to-life, is now, "sitting at the right hand of God" [I never knew God had hands]. I don't know how we KNOW this. Can we see this through a telescope at Adler Planetarium in Chicago?
8. This dead-man-come-back-to-life, who is now sitting at the right hand of God, "in heaven," is going to COME BACK to this earth, in the "latter days," where he will set up the Kingdom of God.
Now, folks! I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. But I find it VERY strange that somebody who would believe that above things, would have the brazen audacity to claim that it is "ridiculous" that someone survived a crucifixion. Well, it wasn't "ridiculous" to an ancient eye witness to a crucifixion, Flavius Josephus:
""I was sent by Titus Caesar with Ceralius and a thousand riders to a certain town by the name of Thecoa to find out whether a camp could be set up at this place. On my return I saw many prisoners who had been crucified, and recognized three of them as my former companions. I was inwardly very sad about this and went with tears in my eyes to Titus and told him about them. He at once gave the order that they should be taken down and given the best treatment so they could get better. However two of them died while being attended to by the doctor; the third recovered.” (The Life of Flavius Josephus (Vita), Section 75) .
And it's not "ridiculous" that people could travel far and wide back then, because it was COMMON that it was done. The routes were well-established. Of course, there were the 3 branches of the Silk Road, but other routes also.
It's far less "ridiculous" to believe that a human being physicall survived a crucifixion, than to believe that he died, came back to life, and floated upwards to heaven, in his physical body, and is alive now.
Nate
2. After rising
Name:roy •
Date: 03/16/07 18:16
A: Nate,
There is little evidence the verse of Qoran points to Kashmir. There could be thousands of places with same description. As a devoted muslims in our world we never heard of such a story nor any sect called Ahmadiyya Community in our life or others history book related to Kashmir. So please dont attribute this story or tomb to muslims. The Ahmadiyya comunity may consist of some few thousands of people, we are talking about close to 1,5 billion muslim comunity.
The rest of the claims made to christian belief about bible has nothing to do with reality. Crusification, floating to heaven, coming back to life, etc.. are stories not being verified in Qoran. On the other hand, Everything is possible for a prophet to perform miracles like healing others, let alone living after crusifiction. ( He never was, the person who was crucified made resemblence to Jesus by God) The judgement on basis of a common man is misleading in faith. We believe Jesus was making bird shaped figures from mud, and God willingly they become alive birds, flying. Healing patients, blinds and teaming up with 12 disciples were all mentioned in Qoran.
Name:Nate Spain •
Date: 03/16/07 19:16
A: Roy, there are NOT "thousands of places" with ALL of the following markings
1. A tomb, with a grave beneath it that faces the direction Jews bury their dead.
2. An occupant of that tomb, whom oral and written tradition of Kashmir states came to Kashmir, "some 1900 years ago"--the same time Jesus lived
3. A GROWING number of documents (Bhavishya Mahapurana, a Hindu document, the Acta Thomae, a Christian document, the Glass Mirror, a Chinese document, the Tariki-i-Kabir-i-Kashmir, the Rauza-tus-Saf, etc., etc.) that point to a POST-CRUCIFIXION, physical life of Jesus.
4. A physical terrain that parralles the description given in Qur'an
5. Foot carvings in stone, inside the tomb, that have wound marks in them, possibly indicating a crucified victim
6. The oral tradition of the people, especially the older people [the younger people are being influenced by FANATIC sunni fundamentalists], who, when they are asked, "Who lies in this tomb," answer, "Isa." (Jesus)
7. Markings on the Takhat Sulaiman monument, now owned by Hindus, that give that date that Yuza Asaf (Jesus) entered Kashmir,
8. And much more,
The verse of the Quran I quoted is ONE piece of circumstantial evidence, that, when added to the other evidence, leads one to conclude that Jesus survived the crucifixion, and went on to Kashmir, where he ended his days at a ripe old age--dying a natural death.
Also, I am not attributing anything to "Muslims." I am attributing the statement in Quran to WHOEVER WROTE IT. God, right? Allah, right?
We am not interested in Muslim DOCTRINE, which changes with the wind, depending on which Sheikh decides to issue a new fatwah today. I am interested in looking at whatever evidence might exist. And the Quranic verse I quoted gives a clue about a possible place Quran was talking about: Kashmir.
I repeat: That verse is just ONE clue. When taken TOGETHER with other clues, that's what makes the verse strongly fit Kashmir.
Nate
Name:Perceptions •
Date: 03/20/07 2:49
A: Roy and Nate,
Something that I found significantly considerable in the verse is the sequence , ....
WE MADE , JESUS SON OF MARY AND ....HIS MOTHER, ...SIGN
It's NOT MARY...and ....JESUS SON OF MARY....
Because in the latter case, THE SHELTER GOT ---MIXED UP ----with the SHELTER given to MARY and her UN_BORN SON, JESUS!
And to me it is not a SIGNIFICANT SHELTER, as JEWS were not after KILLING MARY and they did NOT even knew WHO was going to be born!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What do you think?
Name:roy •
Date: 03/23/07 21:54
A: Perceptions ,
I didnt get what you are saying. It is very confusing please try without capital letters, and put clearly.
Nate Spain,
The Quranic verses is at 23,50 saying 023:050
(Hilali-Khan )And We made the son of Maryam (Mary) and his mother as a sign, And We gave them refuge on high ground, a place of rest, security and flowing streams.
(Shakir) And We made the son of Marium and his mother a sign, and
We gave them a shelter on a lofty ground having meadows and springs.
same vagueness in both translation.
There is no specific place found in this description. There is a house which was found by following dream of a nun in 1960 s at Ephesus Izmir. Even Pope visited the place for pilgrimage this year. It is also at high ground uphill about 10 km from Ephesus, and with springs, and concealeled secure area no other house found around. Jesus Christ was also historically recorded that visited Ephesus in his life. It fits all description. Can we say now it is the place instead of Kashmir? They are all non proven yet.
You take one verse of the Quran for true but disregard the rest. Quran sasy Jesus was never criucified. There should be no mark on the feet.
4:157- That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah"- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.
Jesus Christ name in that time was never the ones that you called above. The name should had been one of the below:
Muslims Call Jesus "’Isa." However, His name in Arabic is "Yasu’e" Yeshua. ‘Isa is a twisted name for Jesus. It is actually "Esau". It is also said that "Isa" was the name of a false god!
Quran may not be regarded simply as a book because there are so many archeological findings in it like you mentioned Ad comunity. ( Also Semud, Lowest place on earth near Lake Lut. Egypt paroah Haman... It can not possibly be so simple. You may find details of other findings at below link.
quranmiracles.com
Jesus was honored in this world, and will be honeored till eternity, you say opposite. He is one of the most influential persons of history. What else do you expect from honor. As all honoroble persons, He had some enemies who were defeated repeatedly. He succeded to build his religion although manupulated later.
Nate wrote:" We am not interested in Muslim DOCTRINE, which changes with the wind, depending on which Sheikh decides to issue a new fatwah today."
Rpy wrote: wrong.
Nobody today has the right to issue a fatwah on behalf of muslims or Quran. If someone says something, the best thing up to his undestanding, It is open for criticism.
Quran can not be misunderstood, or wrong interpreted. Some verses includes words has more than double meanings. People may at most disagree on them. Thats all. So it is a false claim accuse islam "which changes with the wind." It is like a rock standing all winds since 600 AD.
Tradition of comunities has added new rules to it with little or no effect to the understanding the pure Quran. Clever minds of future will be able to interprit what it says, as well as today.
Name:Eagle •
Date: 03/25/07 7:36
A: I was impressed by these posts. I am not Muslim or Jewish, but I have some comments:
#1 If there is a GOD (and I believe there is) then he is the same God for all of us regardless of what we think is true or what we think His name is.
#2 If GOD is our creator and our Father, then we are all brothers and sisters. If Islam believes in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, then the Christians, Muslims, and Jews all believe in the same God.
#3 If GOD created Adam in His own image, then God and Adam have the same attributes. If we knew what Adam looked like, we would know what God looks like.
#4 If Jesus Christ is in the express image of his Father (GOD), then we have two examples (Adam and Jesus) of what God is like. From those two witnesses, we infer that God is like a human being. There are lots of people who will debate and be shocked at that thought. But the truth is out there. God, Jesus, and Adam are all human beings.
#5 If God created human beings in His image, then it must be OKAY to be human, because humans are all in the image of GOD.
#6 So... it's Okay for Jesus to be human.
Are you with me so far?
But, you may say, God is immortal. Humans are not. We tend to die. At least, our earthly bodies do. What happened?
#7 Jews, Christians, and Muslims all seem to believe that Adam partook of a certain tree in the Garden against God's commandment and thus changed their original state -- became mortal, subject to death. (Genesis, and the Qur'an Surah II:35) [Note that I have read the Qur'an, but I am a novice at it and I don't know the proper way to reference the chapters, etc. Just using what is in my paperback book. So I apologize if it isn't correct. I hope to be forgiven if it is not.]
#8 So, when Christ was born, he was born to a mortal human being, thus subject to death in the flesh. But his literal Father was God, an immortal being who was NOT subject to death. Christ had the option, he had power from his Father to live forever. As the Islamic View posting suggested, Christ was NOT killed by the Romans or Jews, or anyone else. They could not have killed him as he was immortal. “No man taketh it [my life] from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.” (John 10:18.)
#9 So, Christ was certainly capable of dying -- but only at his own discretion. So it seems that Christians and Muslims believe the same thing. I assume that Jews would probably concede that Jesus was capable of dying. It's the coming back to life part that seems to be a hangup with a lot of us.
#10 So let's agree, he died. People watching figured that he died because the Romans hung him on the cross. But now we know that isn't true. He died because he laid down his own life. His family and followers weren't expecting his death so soon, so they didn't have a grave ready and waiting for him. Seems that a friend of the family (Joseph) lent the family a tomb. It was obviously meant to be temporary, the assumption being that as soon as a family tomb was ready, his body would be removed and put there.
#10 Here is where Christians, Jews, and Muslims start to differ. Christians believe that Jesus was divine. He not only had power to lay down his life, but also to take it back again. Jews and Muslims appear to accept Jesus as a righteous teacher and messenger, but not divine and, I assume, that he did not have power to take back his life again.
#11 I can't convince anyone of Jesus' divinity. But let's assume for the sake of argument, that he (through his Father) did have power to take back his life. Do we think that his power only allowed him to take back his broken body BEFORE it decayed? If so, it would seem that there was a limit to his power. But if he was divine, an exact image of his divine Father, then it would stand to reason that his power extended even beyond that.
#12 As Christians, we are asked to believe that the resurrection of Jesus means that we, too, can be resurrected and receive again our bodies. But is that limited to just if our bodies haven't already decayed? If they decay or get destroyed, we lose? Seems like the Egyptians kind of thought that. They tried very hard to prevent their bodies from decaying so that they could eventually come back to life. But what about people whose bodies are burned to ashes? Eaten by wild animals? Decayed into the ground? In the Old Testament Job says "And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God." (Job 19:26).
#13 So if we believe Job, we now know that even if the body is completely destroyed, God has the power to resurrect and restore our bodies -- without the original copy.
#14 Wow! So even if Christ's original body died and decayed, what does that matter? He had absolute power from his Father to recreate his resurrected (and perfected) body as a separate entity. Let the bones lie where they will. Good news for us. Even if you die, decay, turn to dust, dust turns to dirt, dirt grows grass, grass gets eaten by a cow, and cow goes to McDonald's and gets eaten by 500 other guys, God still has the power to resurrect YOU. In your perfect form. After you are resurrected, your old bones will probably still lie mouldering in the grave. You don't need them and neither did Christ.
#15 Back to the tomb issue. If Christ left his earthly bones behind, then it stands to reason that his family would have buried the bones, even if they knew and interacted with the resurrected Christ in his new body. The new body was immortal, so even though it appears to have flesh and bones, they would never die and thus the bones in the tomb could not be the bones of the resurrected Christ. Only his old, discarded bones.
#16 There's lots more I could say, but the post would get too long (it already is). But I have one question: Why not all try to get together on our beliefs? We really are not that far apart. Why can't the Bible be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly, and the Qur'an also be the word of God -- just to a different people? And also take into consideration the problem of translation? When I read the Qur'an in English I am very aware that the translation is not smooth. And I assume that God gave the revelations in perfect smoothness. But our languages are very different and to me it has lost something in English. I think God can talk to all people and they can all write the things in their own books. That doesn't make the other books wrong. It is just more than one witness. Then we can get together and see that the books really say the same things. And then we can all stop killing each other. Wouldn't that be nice?
Name:Nate Spain •
Date: 03/25/07 19:16
A: Roy, a couple of quick answers first. Firstly, Imam Shaltut was the former Rector of Al-Azhar University, the most respected Islamic university IN HISTORY. He issued an opinion, fatwah, or whatever you call it that said that, in accordance with the Qur'an, JESUS IS DEAD.
Now, whatever **particular** sectarian doctrine you might hold [Islam DOES have sects: shia, sunni, etc], the FACT is that there is a DIFFERENCE OF OPINION, within Islam, and amongst Islamic Scholars. Otherwise, Imam Shaltut would not have stated the following;
"1. The Holy Quran and Sacred sayings of the Prophet of Islam do not support the belief that Jesus is alive in heaven now.
2. The Quranic verses show that God had planned for Jesus to die a natural death and not die at the hand of those trying to crufify him
3. Anyone not believing Jesus to be alive in heaven is not contravening any Islamic belief"
For those interested, you can read the full text of Imam Shaltut's explanation here:
Now-,- of course, you will tell me, "Oh, he was wrong," because his EXPERT ruling perhaps **differs** from yours. So, when I talked about the sheiks and their fatwahs, I was using that as an EXAMPLE that shows that difference of opinion DOES exist in Islam, and, contrary to what you are trying to claim, there does NOT exist unanimity of opinion about the issue of Jesus, as Imam Shaltut's opion demonstrates.
We're not talking about some lightweight Islamic sheikh. We're talking about a man who assumed the leadership of the oldest and most popular Islamic school in history. So, you can go argue with him (if he's still alive).
Now, as regards Ephesus, I don't understand the relevance. I clearly stated that the Qur'an offered this one piece of circumstantial evidence. I also clearly stated that the ACCUMULATION of various bits of circumstantial evidence in Kashmir, ADDED TO the evidence in Qur'an, ALL point to a possible post-crucifixion life of Jesus.
Now, as regards your claim that the Qur'an says he wasn't crucified, OTHER Arabic scholars and translators of the Qur'an say, "He did not **die** as a result of crucifixion.** They claim that when Qur'an says that he was "not crucified," that the word "crucified," as used in Qur'an, means **to be killed as a result of crucifixion,** not merely that he was nailed to the cross. So, since the theory says that he was not killed as a result of crucifixion, this fits in with what some Qur'anic translators say.
This is why, sir, I have NOT relied solely on the Qur'an. There is no reason to. I am not holding the Qur'an up as the definitive book on Jesus. I am not holding the Qur'an up as "the most" sacred book on earth. I am not holding the Qur'an up as a book that, necessarily, was "revealed by God."
I have quoted ONE verse of Qur'an that contains a description of the Valley of Kashmir. As regards Ephesus, does Ephesus contain documents stating ANYTHING? Does Ephesus have an oral tradition stating ANYTHING about Jesus?
So, when I look at the situation, I am NOT merely looking at springs and rivers. Kashmir contains LOTS of other evidence, not the least of which is the very presence of Jewish tribes that had scattered there before the time of Jesus, indicating a reason WHY Jesus would have gone to Kashmir: to continue preaching to those "other sheep" that he said, according to the Bible, he had to preach to.
Now, as regards the NAME of Jesus, which you objected to. This is why one needs to be familiar with the theory. You are not familiar with it, so your comments are made based on ignorance of the theory.
There are books (see Jesus in Heaven on Earth, by Khawaja Nazir Ahmad, in which he quotes these histories) which state that Jesus, after the crucifixion, eventually arrived in a placed called Nisibis (Nasibain). And it is in Nisibis where he adopted the name Yuz Asaf, which some say translates to, "Jesus the Gatherer, " the word "Yuz" being a corruption of the name Yeshuwa.
These books state that he adopted that name for the purpose of hiding his identity, so that he could travel more safely en route to India. Now Qur'an doesn't say a WORD about this. But the Qur'an doesn't mention a LOT of things, because it's not a history book. For such things, we have to DIG.
Anyway, there is no contradiction about the name Yuz Asaf, according to the books (some of them written by Muslims, by the way, who recorded these oral and writtten traditions) that mention Jesus as being Yuz Asaf.
You say that Jesus was honored in this world. Not during his life time, at least not in "Israel." He was DISHONORED in Israel, by his own people in fact.
As a Muslim, I am surprised that you would say that he was "honored" in this world. Honored? Is it an HONOR, in Islam, for a human being to be elevated to the position of Allah? Are the Christians "honoring" Jesus by calling him God, or the literal "son" of God? Is that honoring him by putting that idea on him?
But, one can, I agree, state that he was "honored" because he has a couple billion humans, supposedly, who believe he's God, son of God, whatever. I'll agree with that.
In my view, he found MORE honor by being saved from death on the cross, and then continuing his ministry in Kashmir.
Another thing: In the Garden of Gethsemene, according to the Bible, Jesus prayed intensely, in agony, asking his "Father," God, to "take this cup away from me." He was asking to NOT be nailed to a cross; to NOT die on the cross.
So, in my mind there should be no surprise that Jesus could have been nailed to the cross, and then also survived that ordeal. Other prophets were saved by God after praying. Why not Jesus?
I can't debate with you about about ISLAMIC ideas about Jesus and death on the cross. Because Muslims are divided on that, despite what you say. Some Muslims even have what they call the "Substitution Theory," in which they say that before Jesus was put on the cross, God caused the Romans to pick somebody else who they THOUGHT was Jesus, and hang him instead.
Other Muslims say that he wasn't put on the cross PERIOD, and that the Substitution Theory is false. Other Muslims claim that Jesus WAS nailed on the cross, but he was saved from death.
That is an argument to be resolved amongst Muslims, not by me. My point was merely to show that ONE piece of evidence in Qur'an seems to be related to Kashmir.
Name:roy •
Date: 03/26/07 10:40
A: Nate Spain,
Which one of the below translations (including Ahmediya sect Sher Ali; and last 4 non-muslim)has said that He was crucified. Muslims unanimously agree that The person who was crucified has been made similar to Jesus by God. This is no doubt.
I dont care as a muslim, which university sheik AL AZHAR in Egypt how interpret what part of Quran. We are not Catholics who believe Pope never can make mistake.
We see Al Azhar univ doctrine as bigotry sometimes shameful burdening islam. They also have very valuable professors. We in islam comunity are like free-speach adhering American society. There is no harm in this, we just debate to find out the truth.
Pickthall And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.
Yusuf Ali That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of God"; - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
Hilali-Khan And because of their saying (in boast), "We killed Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allah," - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of 'Iesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not [i.e. 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) [][] []]:
Shakir And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.
Sher Ali And for their saying, `We did slay the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of ALLAH;' whereas they slew him not, nor did they bring about his death upon the cross, but he was made to appear to them like one crucified; and those who differ therein are certainly in a state of doubt about it; they have no certain knowledge thereof, but only pursue a conjecture; and they did not arrive at a certainty concerning it.
Khalifa And for claiming that they killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of GOD. In fact, they never killed him, they never crucified him - they were made to think that they did. All factions who are disputing in this matter are full of doubt concerning this issue. They possess no knowledge; they only conjecture. For certain, they never killed him.
Arberry and for their saying, 'We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the Messenger of God' -- yet they did not slay him, neither crucified him, only a likeness of that was shown to them. Those who are at variance concerning him surely are in doubt regarding him; they have no knowledge of him, except the following of surmise; and they slew him not of a certainty -- no indeed;
Palmer and for their saying, 'Verily, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, the apostle of God'.... but they did not kill him, and they did not crucify him, but a similitude was made for them. And verily, those who differ about him are in doubt concerning him; they have no knowledge concerning him, but only follow an opinion. They did not kill him, for sure!
Rodwell And for their saying, "Verily we have slain the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, an Apostle of God." Yet they slew him not, and they crucified him not, but they had only his likeness. And they who differed about him were in doubt concerning him: No sure knowledge had they about him, but followed only an opinion, and they did not really slay him,
Sale and have said, verily we have slain Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the apostle of God; yet they slew him not, neither crucified him, but he was represented [by one] in his likeness; and verily they who disagreed concerning him, were in a doubt as to this [matter], and had no [sure] knowledge thereof, but followed only an [uncertain] opinion. They did not really kill him;
Kuran has nothing to do with Kashmir, dont relate your false claim with the MOST SACRED BOOK ON EARTH (bcs you say opposite).
I still believe Jesus ha sbeen one of the most honored man in history of human being. He is at least honored correctly in the hearts of 2 billion muslims, let alone billions of christians as a messenger of God. They and muslim all agree Jesus was word of God to Mary, given birth fatherless, same as Adam. The starting of debate is at he is son of God or not. We say He is not son of God. This is all.
There is no debate within islamic society whether is He crucified. To be a muslim you should accept all Quranic verses by heart, including 4:157.
Are you satisfied?
Name:Nate Spain •
Date: 03/26/07 13:47
A: Roy, this is not working. Because what you want to turn this to is a debate about MUSLIM BELIEF. I am not a Muslim, Roy, okay?
But, I will say this. How on EARTH can you make the claim that,
"There is no debate within islamic society whether is He crucified." My God, Roy, that just is not so. You have an ENTIRE GLOBAL ISLAMIC COMMUNITY called the Ahmadiyya Community which swears up and down, USING QUR'AN that Jesus WAS crucified, but that he survived the crucifixion.
Now, I realize that some sunni Muslim authorities have "declared" that the Ahmadiyyas are not Muslim. But, such declarations are WORTHLESS. And do you know why? Because every sect of Islam has seclared SOME OTHER SECT to be "non-Muslim." Go read your OWN history.
The sunnis, at one time, declared shias to be "non-Muslim." The shias, at one time, declared sunnis to be "non-Muslim." Now, today, you sunnis are "declaring" the Ahmadiyyas to be "non-Muslim." I
I ain't gonna get into that debate. The Ahmadiyyas, Roy, present arguments, BASED ON ARABIC, and based on THEIR understanding of the Arabic language of the Qur'an; and those arguments--using the root meanings of Arabic--are that Jesus WAS crucified, that is, he was NAILED TO THE CROSS. But that he did not DIE as a result of the crucifixion.
So don't tell me that there is 100% agreement amongst Muslims about what happened to Jesus, because that ain't so, Roy. Personally, I'm not going to dismiss the arguments of the Ahmadiyyas, as they claim to number some 100,000,000 Muslims or so on the planet.
But, we can forget about the numbers. I have read THEIR version, in their translations (Maulana Sher Ali, Muhammad Ali, Malik Ghulam Farid). Also, Roy, I have read Yusuf Ali's translations, and the other translations that you offer.
In addition, Roy, I have read the COMMENTARIES--what you guys call "tafsirs"--relating to this Jesus business. The reason I read them, Roy, is because I have an interest in the historical Jesus. I didn't read them to see who is the "right" Muslim.
There is NO reason that I should believe sunni interpretation over ahmadiyya, or shia, or anything else. Yes, the Ahmadiyya interpretation supports the view that I believe, and that ALREADY EXISTED BEFORE THE AHMADIYYAS CAME INTO EXISTENCE.
The fact is, Roy, that the documents in Kashmir that state that Jesus came there existed long before Ghulam Ahmad opened his mouth and made his claims. I am not interested in his claims, nor am I interested in trying to find out which Islamic group has the "correct" interpretation of Qur'an.
Why? Because you guys can't figure that out yourselves, let alone me. I'm not an Arabic scholar. But sunnis, shias, and Ahmadiyyas ALL have Arabic scholars. The only reason I agree with the Ahmadiyyas on this Jesus business is because there are OTHER DOCUMENTS, such as the Bhavishya Mahapurana--a Hindu document--that support the Jesus-in-Kashmir theory.
There is also the Grugtha Thams Chand, a Tibetan document that agrees with the Jesus-in-Kashmir theory. Get it, Roy? What I am SAYING is that the understanding of those verse of Qur'an offered by the Ahmadiyyas are in agreement with NON-MUSLIM books that place Jesus in Kashmir.
Understand? It's detective work, Roy: You look everywhere.
Now, as regards your belief about all Muslims agreeing on this subject, I will not quote from the Ahmadiyya translations--which are availble on the web for all to see, at alislam.org. And you will see that all Muslims ARE NOT in agreement about Jesus and the crucifixion. These commentaries are commentaries about Chapter Al-Nisa, verse 158. The one that begins, "And for their saying, 'We did slay the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary..." Here is what the Ahmadiyya commentary of that verse says:
"Ma salabu-hu means, they did not cause his death on the cross. Salab being a well-known manner of killing. They say Salaba al-Lissa, i.e., he put the thief to death by putting him on the cross. The verse does not deny the fact of Jesus's being nailed to the cross, but denies his having died on it." (The Holy Qur'an, Arabic Text and English Translation with Commentary, Edited by Malik Ghulam Farid, Published unde the auspices of Hazrat Mirza Tahir Ahmad, the 4th Successor of the founder of the Ahmadiyya Community, page 232, Note 697).
So, Roy, PLEASE don't come here telling me that ALL Muslims are in agreement regarding whether or not Jesus was nailed to the cross, because they DO NOT agree on that unanimously.
The Ahmadiyyas boast Arabic scholars just as the sunnis and shias. In fact, I personally met a few of them, one named Maulana Azhar Hanif. So, what would you do now? Hold a CONTEST to see which Arabic scholar understands Quranic Arabic better? Not me, Roy.
I see their translation as agreeing with what Nicholas Notovitch found; agreewing with the Bhavishya Mahapurana; agreeing with the Grugtha Thams Chand; agreeing with the Tarikh-i-Kabir-i-Kashmir; agreeing with The Glass Mirror; agreeing with the Acta Thomae, which is a Christian doctrined, banned by the Church, and which places Jesus IN KASHMIR long after the crucifixion.
This is DETECTIVE work, NOT **religious work.** I am not interested in proving which religion, or which sect, is correct. I am doing DETECTIVE work. I am not concerned whether Ahmadiyya translation is correct or not. My interest in their translation comes from the fact that their belief about Jesus corresponds to beliefs that existed long before the Ahmadiyya Community existed--long before 1889, when Ghulam Ahmad founded that movement.
The Bhavishya Mahapurana, Roy, existed long before Ghulam Ahmad was born. And the Bhavishya Mahapurana places Jesus in Kashmir, speaking with King Shalivahana, long after the crucifixion.
The other evidence I see are the foot carvings, inside the Roza Bal tomb, that show WOUND MARKS IN THE FEET--crucifixion marks. Now, such foot carvings existed all over Kashmir. But, as noted by Aziz Kashmiri and Dr. Fida Hassnain, the ONLY foot carving in Kashmir that shows wound marks in the feet are the ones inside the Roza Bal.
And the elder people of Kashmir, when asked, "Who is inside this tomb," respond, "Isa." Hear it, Roy!!?? The name "Isa" is tha name used for Jesus by Muslims, as well as by Hindus in their book, the Bhavishya Mahapurana.
The reason that the elders in Kashmir say that "Isa" is in that tomb is because THAT is the tradition handed down to them by their parents: that Yuz Asaf is, in fact, Jesus. And this tradition existed LONG BEFORE MIRZA GHULAM AHMAD was even born.
So, those carvings of feet; the oral tradition of the people of Kashmir; the written documents, written both by Muslims and non-Muslims; the Quranic verse that says that Jesus and Mary were taken to an "elevated" land of rivers, etc.; the Ahmadiyya view that Jesus WAS crucified, but that he survived, ALL add up to be strong evidence, in my view, that Jesus WAS crucified, but that he survived that crucifixion.
I think I quoted, elsewhere, from Flavius Josephus, a Jewish historian of the time, where Flavius WITNESSED one of his friends SURVIVE a crucifixion. Anyone wishing that quote, I'll reproduce it again. Just ask.
So, that is yet ANOTHER piece of evidence: Josephus eye-witness account, that he recorded in his book, in which he begged to have his friends taken down from the cross. Two of his friends died, but the third RECOVERED.
Again, for emphasis: I am not interested in determining which Muslim Arabic scholar and translator of the Quran is correct and which ain't. That ain't my business. I business is to collect evidence--for my own sake, that's all. For my own personal interest.
Your business is to support YOUR PARTICULAR understanding of that verse, that understanding, of course, NOT being one that all Muslims agree on. You might wish to dismiss 100,000,000 Ahmadiyyas and claim that they are "not Muslim," as I realize that many sunnis do. But that ain't my business. I'm not in that sectarian contest--not interested.
Again: Please don't assume that I'm not aware. I am aware that there DOES exist difference of opinion. I know better, Roy. Thank you for this exchange. :-)
Peace and Blessings to you and yours,
Nate Spain
Name:roy •
Date: 03/27/07 0:05
A: Nate Spain,
Thanks for your long letter, It is my privilage to address you.
I have no ill feelings against Ahmediyyas, I dont know any clue about them. I heard from you now. It may be my ignorance. There have been so many sects throughout history that I lost connection. Some faded away some are newly emerging, I dont care any of them including shii and sunni. I am not any of them but a plain muslim. It is totally against the first teachings of Mohammed and against the Quran to devide into sects. However it seem to be inevitable to have some different views. As they are not mature enough to solve differences in peace they prefered to alienate themselves from others. Sometimes let alone call each other non-muslim, they fought, result was killing Hz. Mohammeds (Saas) 2 sons, and 2 successors.
Nobody can claim other as non muslim. Besides, being a muslim is not a free pass to heaven. Nor all non-muslims will go to hell directly. It is not end of the world. Believing one God having good virtues in earth, will be valued accordingly in heaven. This is all we muslims believe.
You by yourself decide whether Ahmediyya or any person adheres İslam or not.
They must believe in:
-God not adding beside nobody else as spare or replacement deity.
-All Prophets and their books.
-Quran in full text, non exempting even one single letter. It is God word.
-Resurrection day and hell/heaven
-Angels
-Destiny is created by God
If your Ahmediyyas doesn’t believe one of the above they are not muslim. Period.
There is no debate about Jesus crucification. Believe me, they dont bother about it as there are many other topics, as that one was openly written in Quran adding that no-muslims are in doubt about it. They never crucified him. This is enough for us. We dont know whereabouts, or how He died.
However there is big debate about, ( I dont believe this theory) :Jesus will come on earth near future as a last resort of human to be in peace, all world nations will live under his kingdom for 40 years and he will die again. He will come to Damascus, İstanbul, or and other islamic city as a muslim. There will be Mehdi who will help him build his new order (Many sect leaders already believed themselves the Mehdi) This will be one of numerous sign of dooms day.
The above story has been added to muslim hadith books in order to bring christians into same line with muslims, create empathy, of course give power to sect leaders who has produced these stories. One of them was exported from here, he is living in USA today, he is powerful man, has banks, tv channels, thousand schools, newspapers, thousands of foolish or naive followers, etc.. He was sued to capture state organizations, found resort to flee.Or he was after bigger ambitions.
On the other hand, christians has been influenced by muslims, by giving up claim of three gods~Trias, trinity, instead they say One God in three, by pressure of muslims about this absurdity.
Whatever belief you hold I respect, “Truth shall make us free” as christians say.
I dont insist on muslim belief, every body has his/her conscious. My job is to clearly defend what is my faith.
May God be with you.
Eagle, congradulations for making such detailed well understood remarks I want to add my opinions tomorrow.
Name:Perceptions •
Date: 03/27/07 2:46
A: Hi
Roy and Nate , I just discovered the thread, AGAIN!
'll join after going thru it.
Eagle , cool contribution!
Name:Nate Spain •
Date: 03/27/07 12:14
A: Well, I was raised a Christian. Now I am no longer Christian.
But since I was raised Christian, I have some interest in Jesus. When I was Christian, I began to realize that the story that my Christian teachers were telling me was false.
And I began to realize this on my own, without reading any books. I began to realize that it was UNJUST that some human being would be chosen to be KILLED, on a cross, for MY sins. I began to realize this injustice when I was a child.
And this is a common story, Roy, not just mine. There are many Christians who, at one time or another, begin to **feel** or sense the injustice of a doctrine that claims that some man was MURDERED for my sins. and what made it worse, in my mind, was that this man was the son of God, and that God would put his son through that ordeal.
So, what happened to me, Roy, is that after I began to realize this great injustice, I started looking around to see if I could find answers. The first place I looked was the Bible. And right there, staring me in the face, was the fact that Jesus had survived the crucifixion.
It was there all the time. But I didn't begin to see it until I stepped away from the INDOCTRINATION, and just read the Bible on my own, by myself, without anybody telling me anything.
And I saw it, Roy:
"Feel me and see that I am flesh and bones. For a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have."
That statement was supposedly made by Jesus days after the crucifixion. The statement is clear. The statement has NO religious connotation whatsoever. The statement says NOTHING about Jesus being a supernatural being, or God. It's a clear statement in which he was telling his doubting disciplies, "I'm alive. I survived the crucifixion."
This understanding came to me while I was Christian, with no help from anybody but THE UNIVERSE. Well, then I started looking around, trying to find other things. I read Sconfield's, "The Passover Plot," decades ago.
I read other things. The I heard about various views, here and there.
And those views coincided with what I **felt**; what I sensed. So, the issue became important to me. Because the injustice of that doctrine was massive. What was being said was intolerable.
Also, there was notthing in world society, that I could see, that showed any practical positive result from Jesus dying on the cross. What result is there?
The Christian teachers were telling me, "He died for the sins of the world." I mean, what does that MEAN? The sins of the world, today, are manifold. The world is AWASH in sin.
And Jesus' death on the cross DID NOT prevent that. So, what I was left with was nothing but an emotional statement, "The Lord died for our sins," as the preachers would shake their voices and conjur up all kinds of emotion (which they appeared to equate to spirituality).
What does it MEAN for some being to die for the sins of the world? It means NOTHING.
Then I began to read more, and I disocvered that before Jesus, some 30 saviors that died for the world existed. It's the truth. All over the planet, long before Jesus, there had been a savior, somewhere, who died for the sins of the world; who was born of a virgin; who decended into hell, rose from the dead, and was coming back.
Looking around the web, Roy, and you will find a list of those "saviors." If 30 prior saviors died for the sins of the world, what was the need of Jesus coming to try the same thing again? I mean, if it didn't work 30 times, it wasn't going to work 31.
That belief, Roy, is empty. The GOOD part of Christianity is the emphasis on charity, etc., that gave us Christian schools, hospitals, charitable organizations, elderly homes, etc., all over the world.
But that had nothing to do with Jesus dying on the cross. It had to do with other doctrines THAT HE TAUGHT.
Well, again, my thing has been that I am curious to know something about what happened to him. Because, quite frankly, I feel that the Christian doctrine is kind of...messed up.
I am always baffled when a Christian, after I tell him my feelings, trys to sit me down to EXPLAIN why I should feel GOOD about somebody dying for me. Why should I feel happy about that?
That's BAD. I don't want anybody to die for me. That's depressing, not satisfying. I'll stand up for MY OWN sins.
I also kind of think that putting all the sins of humanity on Jesus is vulgar. Let the man rest. If he ever did really exist, he's dead. Let him rest. Let his soul rest.
I hope his body is found.
Regards,
Nate
Name:Red •
Date: 03/27/07 14:06
A: Nate, you make some wonderful points. There are alot of folks who feel the need to turn inward and quest for rationality, Me included. It's not an easy task considering how intrenched and automatic religion and it's doctorines are in a society. I commend you for your search of truth. It is at times a very scary quest to be out there all on your own looking for the light in the most remote nooks and crannies of life. Yet ,it is reward like no other when a person discovers the first real proof of somethimg he always knew deep down was the case , even though it had been hidden away.(this starts in childhood i believe).
The subject of religion, Christianity in particular, in my opinion ,it is the philisophical basis on which it is founded that is flawed. I can say the same of Judaism, and Islam because the basic foundation is the same. This foundation begins in the beggining with the idea that mankind is, by his very nature EVIL. This one idea begat many diffrent snowball a' rollin. Mankind is inherently evil, and therfore we need a fix: enter religion.
While it is common knowledge that man isnt 'Perfect', it is also a mistake to attempt to define 'Perfection'. If we are imperfect, How can we define it? There is no way. Therfore, if we can not define perfection, we can not define 'Imperfection'. It is here that the definition of Evil is placed on mankind because he can not define perfection.
I believe Man places way too much value to that idea. There is no such thing as perfection. It is a man made linear idea that has no definition. Perfection becomes "indefinite"and " incomprehencible". However, he places the value on a particular god, and then strives to be closer to that god and therfore perfection.
I beleive it is percisely at this point where things get stupid. (excuse the vernacular, but that is what it is). It becomes a copeing mechanism.
If / when everyone is standing/kneeling/ groveling/sitting/squating/ in the presence of the creator in some distant time that only operates in the far off fuzzy realm of death, they may very well find their God not to be to their expectations.
In the physics of this world in which mankind credits God as the author of it's laws, you can see everywhere the goings on that does not meet human definition of perfection. Yet, the creator we believe, drew up the blueprints,signed the contract, and built it.
God may be perfect, but not to religious definition.
How many times have we heard the cop out concerning some question that is absolutely un-answerable, with " God works in mysterious ways", or " He has a plan, and we cant fathom it".? What kind of answer is this? Is it possibe that the laws The creator made are not perfect, and therfore he is not? Maybe he is learning as he goes too. Who knows. But one thing is sure, we only show our imperfection as Humans by appliying some value of perfection of God.
I think as Humans , this is the biggest mistake we ever made.
Name:Nate Spain •
Date: 03/27/07 16:17
A: Red, it's getting dangerous now at this forum!! :-) You're gonna start us to THINKING here! :-)
Your words are almost frightening--in a good way.
"It is at times a very scary quest to be out there all on your own looking for the light in the most remote nooks and crannies of life..."
Scary is one word. Death-defying is another. And when I say "death-defying," I don't mean simply physical death.
I have **lost** friendships. I am somewhat, in fact, isolated. I do not have a real community of any type--not really. And it is because I made the mistake [it now seems like a mistake] of being such a **purist** in my need to "be right" that, somehow, I ended up virtually alone, except for my wife of 20 years.
One can see precisely why most people have the instinctive **survival sense** to NOT question a damned thing. They will go to church, knowing full well that some of the doctrines [some of them] are bogus. But, for the **real** need to stay connected, they will tolerate it.
I once witnessed an anti-religious ideologue preaching to some guy about the falsehood of religion. Eventually, the guy looked at this ideologue and said, "Shit, you're preaching to the wrong man. Hell, I just go to church for my children and family. I never believed that shit that preacher talks."
The ideologue stood there--no more audience. I would venture to say that there are millions of "Christians" out there like that--people who KNOW how dangerous it is to cut oneself off from one's culture and community.
I swear to you, for some reason, I had NO idea how dangerous it is. And I had no idea that I would, eventually, as I am now, find myself virtually alone, somehow unable to connect. Not because I'm an ideologue. But because **for so long** I'd been on "the path" [whatever that is], rather than just being NORMAL and busting out a brewskie, looking at a football game!! I took the shit to the extreme--this discovery of truth.
But guess what happens after you "find the truth." I'll tell you. You're welcomed into a community of people "who have found the truth." And they're all smiling, and you're smiling, and everybody's happy because they all, "have the truth."
So, years--sometimes decades--go by. But because of ***your nature***, you start beginning to recognize something: that your group DON'T have "the" truth. That there are parts of its doctrines, or interpretations of those doctrines, that don't seem right.
And you're not doing this to be negative. You're actually studying the stuff--and studying hard. Then one day you go around the group. And everybody's smiling. And they're talking about part of the doctrine. And then you make the mistake of opening up your mouth. And nobody's smiling anymore--they're looking at YOU, because you have "abandoned" the truth.
No you haven't!! But that's how they see it. Then, you're alone--again.
I'll give you a classic example that a Muslim truth seeker told me. In Islam, there is the teaching of Muhammad, supposedly, where he said that keeping a dog in the house is un-Islamic, because "the angels will not enter the home in which a dog exists." This isn't in Quran, but in alleged sayings of Muhammad.
So, to this day, no "good Muslim" will own a dog and keep it in his home. But here's the rub. Today, in our modern age, it has been discovered that dogs have the natural ability to predict, 2 hours in advance, the onset of an epileptic fit in a human. And trainers have now trained dogs to enhance that ability.
So there are people who have epilepsy who have these dogs that can help them to LIVE, and to live decently. Now this brings up a troubling question for Muslims, and it is this. Islam teaches that God is the "controller of the causes of life and death."
And we have a case here were God has ALLOWED a dog to SHARE in this attribute--this attribute of having some control over life and death. So, why would "the angels," whatever those are, NOT come into a home where God Himself has ALLOWED a dog to SAVE A PERSON'S LIFE.
This shit is BACKWARDS!! But NO Muslim will admit that that alleged teaching of Muhammad's is false. They can't do it, because they have...the truth. And "the truth" DOESN'T CHANGE. And if it DOES change, then how can it be...the truth.
They wouldn't THINK to ask, "Well...Maybe Muhammad DIDN'T say that." No, HE SAID IT! And you better not have a dog in your house. So, if you have epilepsy, TOUGH SHIT!! Just DIE!!
And this inability fo CHANGE is what causes people to LEAVE religion. I would venture to say that religious people are more responsible for creating atheists than anything else.
Now, here's something very funny I heard about this dog business. And I don't know if it's true, because I don't know Arabic. Maybe our Muslim friend here, Roy, can confirm this. truth, check this out!!
Now, the person who claimed that Muhammad said this thing about dogs not being allowed in the house was a guy named Abu Hurairah, who was supposedly a companion of Muhammad's, I think.
And HE is the one, in the sayings of Muhammad, who CLAIMED that he hard Muhammad say that there should be no dogs in the house. Now check this out. I was told by a Muslim that there was something interesting about Abu Hurairah. Guess what he was. HE LOVED CATS AND HATED DOGS!!
The implication being that Muhammad DID NOT ban dogs in the house, but that Abu Hurairah LIED, only because he--Abu Hurairah--loved cats, and hated dogs! So he, one guy told me, purposely lied in stating that Muhammad had banned dogs, knowing full well that anything Muhammad said would be followed.
But that doesn't end it, and this is where Roy will have to come in and help me. I was told that the name, "Abu Hurairah," actually means, "Father of the Cats."
Now, if that is so, then why is it not POSSIBLE that the "Father of the Cats" would have concocted a saying of Muhammad, simply because he--Abu Hurairah--hated dogs.
Imagine that people BUILD AN ENTIRE RELIGIOUS LIFE based on such things! Really!! I got a Muslim friend--very educated. Has degrees and all that. Guy told me that he would not visit me anymore if I ever bought a dog. This is my "friend." I would lose a FRIEND if I got a dog!! I like dogs. I like cats too.
I'll give you another example. The sheikhs in Islam claim that female circumcision is Islamic. But it is claimed that Aisha, Muhammad's wife, said, "When the Messenger of Allah wanted to sexually arouse me, he would fondle me." WHAT WAS HE FONDLING!!!!!
If Muhammad had sacntioned female circumcision, WHAT WAS HE FONDLING!!??
Now, don't get me started with CHRISTIANITY!! Or Hinduism, with its caste system, and RACISM. Sheesh!! It's enough to make you want to go to the mountains, in a cave, and HIDE!!
I feel like I'm in a cave anyway, even as I walk out in the streets, fully in the open.
Yesterday, for the first time in 37 years, I busted a cold one, and drank that sucker with my brother and a friend. Yet, my Muslim friends would tell me, "Allah forbid!!", while at the SAME time telling me that ALL the Jews in Israel should be driven to the sea; or I can't have a dog in my house.
I mean, which is worse? Busting me out a brewski!!?? Or wishing that all Jews DIE?? No, not all Muslims think like that. Maybe most don't. But the UGLY is so bad, amongst those that do, that it's enough to MAKE a man drink!!
Had I not had to leave, I would have joined my brother in some wine!
"The truth." We got to "find" the truth. As if it's hiding somewhere. What can be more TRUTHFUL than a clear blue sky; or a sunny day, or the trees in a forest, or the walk of a female?
Shit, we got truth all around us--everywhere.
This brings up yet another thing about Jesus' alleged death for the sins of the world. When I ask Christians why God would kill his son for me, they answer, "To show his love."
Wow! I repeat: The sky, the smell of the air after a rainstorm, the beauty of a waterfall, birds that fly up in the sky, the lakes, butterflies, leaves, trees, mountains, meadows, rivers, lakes, oceans, our food that grows in the earth, good company.
So, after creating all these things that clearly demonstrate God's love for us, those things were not enough to show that love? You mean, he had to KILL his son...to show that he loved us?
I mean, you came over to my house, I opened the door, sat you down, called my son in the the living room, pulled out a gun and blew his head off; and then, jerking in shock, you went, "MY GOD...WHAT...WHAT...WHY..."
And I answered, "I just wanted to show you how much I love you as a friend."
I mean, you'd probably think, "Damn, a cold beer would have sufficed!!"
Regards,
Nate
Name:Red •
Date: 03/27/07 20:10
A: " thus my pattern of relationship to the world was already pre-figured: as a child I felt myself to be alone, and today I am still solitary, because I know things and must hint at things which other people do not know- and usually do not even WANT to know."--- C.G. Jung
His search made him a lonely Man. It sounds as if your quest has brought the same...... Well, welcome to the cave.
I take solace in the fact I live in a forest. I say two words to my wife, and it confuses her, But the trees are great listeners....
Name:Red •
Date: 03/27/07 20:11
A: P.S. Silver maples anyway..... The Pines like to make thier own noise.....
Name:roy •
Date: 03/28/07 0:26
A: Eagle, I like your style,comments, especially final say.
I put my opinons as the following relevant to your post. I may be mistaken deeply, I neither claim proficiency nor represent İslam. These are humble thoughts of a plain common muslim.
#1 We agree on God exists and has various names, in all languages, basic language is non-verbal from heart and emotional. He is called, felt and known by His abilities, acts, doings. We muslims pray Him over 100 names all represent His different Qualities.
#2 As long as we can intermarry and have child as a result, we are biologically coming from the same root. Human being is one kind of creature. This indicates that we are brothers and sisters, no matter how hard some people claim, they are from superior race, blue blood, noble anchestory / generation tree from prophets, even as Japans believe their kings coming from sun or God. It remained as a shame to our human being. It was a reason of Egyptian paroahs extinction.
#3 God didnt create Adam from His own image, but He created him from his soul.
We believe ;
38:71-72 Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: I am about to create man from clay:
When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him.
This shows that He didn’t resemble to Adam by shapely fashion but could be by soul. He says at another sentence that Soul (Spirit)
17: 85- They ask thee concerning the spirit (of inspiration). Say: the spirit (cometh) by command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you, (O men)
As a result we can say from islamic perspective, we dont know the shape of God but can guess about His spirit that He breath into us from. We also add that He is apart from all weakness, inabilities attributed for mankind. He is apart from bad and He is just Perfect for all qualities, Omnipotent.
#4 God never resembles to human being nor there is a way to compare Him anyway to us. We can not say anything that we dont know about Him. It is actually forbidden to us.
2: 169- For he commands you what is evil and shameful, and that ye should say of Allah that of which ye have no knowledge.
7: 33- Say: the things that my Lord hath indeed forbidden are: shameful deeds, whether open or secret; since and trespasses against truth or reason; assigning of partners to Allah, for which He hath given no authority; and saying things about Allah of which ye have no knowledge.
10: 68- They say, Allah hath begotten a son glory be to him he is Self-Sufficient his are all things in the heavens and on earth no warrant have ye for this say ye about Allah what ye know not?
#5 #6 Humans are not in the image of God. The concept of “Jesus was a human” is acceptable to us. He was different than mankind much more similarly created like Adam, and son of Zekaria, Yahya (John) who was given birth to a very old parents.
#7 You are correct in citing from Quran please go ahead, keep up good work.
2:35- We said: "O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden; and eat of the bountiful things therein as (where and when) ye will; but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression."
#8 His literal father was not God. Christ was the word of God to Virgin Mary. Has not been granted eternity. However we believe prophets, like martyrs do not die, They are alive in another form of living, we dont see them they see us. In addition, prophets corpses do not perish as regular human being, they remain as fresh as same day of their death. (This is claimed by hadiths)
You may find below all the relevant perception of Jesus Christ by islamic view: These are absolutely believed, compulsory verses to be recognised as muslim. There are supplementary hadiths (supposedly words of Prophet Mohammed (sas). We cant guarantee the correctness.) therefore weak beliefs, not necessarily accepted by all muslims, nor a requisite.
2: 71- O People of the Book! commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one God: glory be to him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.
FOR THOSE WHO WANTS TO LEARN HOW IS JESUS CHRIST & MARY AND CHRISTIANS ARE OBSERVED IN QURAN PLEASE STUDY THE FOLLOWING VERSES:
110- Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! recount my favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel. And behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it, and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the Clear Signs. And the Unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'
111- And they say: "None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian." Those are their (vain) desires. Say: "Produce your proof if ye are truthful."
112- Behold! the disciples said: "O Jesus the son of Mary! can thy Lord send down to us a Table set (with viands) from heaven?" Said Jesus: "Fear Allah, if ye have Faith."
113- The Jews say: "The Christians have naught (to stand) upon"; and the Christians say: "The Jews have naught (to stand) upon." Yet they (profess to) study the (same) book. Like unto their word is what those say who know not; but Allah will judge between them in their quarrel on the Day of Judgment.
114- Said Jesus the son of Mary: "O Allah our Lord! send us from heaven a table set (with viands), that there may be for us- for the first and the last of us- a solemn festival and a Sign from Thee; and provide for our sustenance, for Thou art the best Sustainer (of our needs)."
116- And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! didst thou say unto men, "Worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, Thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, though I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.
120- Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say: "The Guidance of Allah - that is the (only) Guidance," Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor Helper against Allah.
13- The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah the which We have sent by inspiration to thee and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: Namely, that ye should remain steadfast in Religion, and make no divisions therein: to those who worship other things than Allah, hard is the (way) to which thou callest them. Allah chooses to Himself those whom He pleases, and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him).
135- They say: "Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided (to salvation)." Say thou: "Nay! (I would rather) the Religion of Abraham, the True, and he joined not gods with Allah."
136- Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma`il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord: we make no difference between one and another of them: and we bow to Allah (in Islam).
14- From those, too, who call themselves Christians, we did take a Covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done.
14- O ye who believe! Be ye helpers of Allah: As said Jesus the son of Mary to the Disciples, Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah? Said the Disciples, We are Allah's helpers! Then a portion of the Children of Israel believed, and a portion disbelieved: but We gave power to those who believed, against their enemies, and they became the ones that prevailed.
140- Or do ye say that Abraham, Isma`il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes were Jews or Christians? Say: Do ye know better than Allah? Ah! who is more unjust than those who conceal the testimony they have from Allah? But Allah is not unmindful of what ye do!
157- That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah"- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not-
163- We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him: We sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma`il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms.
17- In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary. Say: who then hath the least power against Allah, if his will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every one that is on the earth? for to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what he pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things.
17- Those who believe (in the Quran), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians, Christians, Magians, and Polytheists, Allah will judge between them On the day of Judgment: For Allah is witness of all things.
171- O People of the Book! commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one God: glory be to him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.
171- O People of the Book! commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one God: glory be to him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.
172- Christ disdaineth not to serve and worship Allah, nor do the angels, those nearest (to Allah): those who disdain his worship and are arrogant, he will gather them all together unto Himself to (answer).
18- (both) the Jews and the Christians say: we are sons of Allah, and his beloved. Say: why then doth he punish you for your sins? nay, ye are but men, of the men he created: he forgiveth whom he pleaseth, and he punisheth whom he pleaseth,: and to god belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between: and unto him is the final goal (of all)
253- Those Messengers we endowed with gifts, some above others: to one of them Allah spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honour); to Jesus, the son of Mary, We gave Clear (Signs), and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit. If Allah had so willed, succeeding generations would not have fought among each other, after Clear (Signs) and come to them but they (chose) to wrangle, some believing and others rejecting. If Allah had so willed, they would not have fought each other; but Allah fulfilleth His plan.
27- Then, in their wake, We followed them up with (others of) Our messengers: We sent after them Jesus the son of Mary. And bestowed on him the Gospel; and We ordained in the hearts of those who followed him Compassion and Mercy, but the Monasticism which they invented for themselves, We did not prescribe for them: (We commanded) only the seeking for the Good Pleasure of Allah; but that they did not foster as they should have done. Yet We bestowed, on those among them who believed, their (due) reward, but many of them are rebellious transgressors.
3- It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the book, confirming what went before it; and he sent down the law (of Moses) and the gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and he sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).
30- The Jews call Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the Unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the truth
31- They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but one Allah: there is no god but he. Praise and glory to him: (far is he) from having the partners they associate (with him).
34- Such (was) Jesus the son Of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.
45- Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah;
46- And in their footsteps we sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the law that had come before him: we sent him the gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.
51- O ye who believe take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.
52- When Jesus found unbelief on their part he said: who will be my helpers to (the work of) Allah? said the disciples: we are Allah's helpers: we believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.
55- Behold Allah said: O Jesus I will take thee and raise thee to myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject Faith, to the day of resurrection: then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.
57- When (Jesus) the son of Mary is held up as an example, behold, thy people raise a clamour thereat (in ridicule)!
59- The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; he created him from dust, then said to him: Be: and he was.
6- And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the Messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "This is evident sorcery!"
61- And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): Therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: this is a Straight Way.
62- Those who believe (in the Quran), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians, any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord: on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
63- When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: Now have I come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which ye dispute: therefore fear Allah and obey me.
67- Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian; but he was true in Faith, and bowed his will to Allah's, (which is Islam), and he joined not gods with Allah.
69- Those who believe (in the Quran), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians, any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the work righteousness, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
7- And remember We took from the Prophets their Covenant: as (We did) from thee: from Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus the son of Mary: We took from them a solemn Covenant:
72- They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah- Allah will forbid him the Garden, and the fire will be his abode. There will for the wrongdoers be no one to help.
75- Christ, the son of Mary, was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make his Signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!
78- Curses were pronounced on those among the Children of Israel who rejected Faith, by the tongue of David and of Jesus the son of Mary: because they disobeyed and persisted in excesses.
82- Strongest among men in enmity to the Believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the Believers wilt thou find those who say, we are Christians: because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.
84- Say: we believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham. Isma`il; Isaac, Jacob, and the tribes, and in (the books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: we make no distinction between on and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam).
85- And Zakariya and john, and Jesus and Elias: all in the ranks of the righteous:
87- We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of Messengers; we gave Jesus, the son of Mary, clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit. Is it that whenever there comes to you a Messenger with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride? Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay!
19:16-35
Relate in the Book (The story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family To a place in the east.
She placed a screen (To screen herself) from them; then we sent to her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects.
She said: I seek refuge from thee to (Allah) Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear Allah.
He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son."
She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that non man has touched me and I am not unchaste?"
He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'That is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us:' It is a matter (so) decreed."
So she conceived him, And she retired with him to a remote place.
And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk Of a palm tree: She cried (in her anguish): Ah! would that I had died before this! would that I had been a thing forgotten and out of sight!
But (a voice) cried to her from beneath the (palm tree): grieve not! for thy Lord hath provided a rivulet beneath thee;
And shake towards thyself The trunk of the palm tree: It will let fall fresh ripe dates upon thee.
So eat and drink And cool (thine) eye. And if thou dost see Any man, say, I have Vowed a fast to (Allah) Most Gracious, and this day Will I enter into no talk With any human being
At length she brought The (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: O Mary! Truly an amazing thing hast thou brought!
O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not A man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!
But she pointed to the babe. They said: How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?
He said: I am indeed A servant of Allah: He hath given me revelation and made me A prophet;
And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, And hath enjoined on me prayer and Charity as long As I live;
(He) hath made me kind To my mother, and not overbearing or miserable;
So peace is on me The day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)!
Such (was) Jesus the son Of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.
It is not befitting To (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to him! when he determines a matter, He only says To it, be, and it is.
#9 Yes Muslims believe Christ was capable of dying because He says to God the day I was born the day I would be dead,same sentence for Yahya of Zekariya…
19: 33- So peace is on me The day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)!
Coming back to life is a lot of confusion for muslims too. Some sects of muslims believe He will come back to life at future time when there will be common distress all over the world, such as war and high rate of crime. He will reign his kingdom of world-scale for 40 years for absolute peace, then he will die again. This will be one sign of dooms day. There are lots of artificial Mehdi produced in the past and present who supposedly would help Messiah to run his kingdom and establish his reign. And of course if he ever comes He will be descended a muslim origin and a city. It is believed that this kind of hadiths were produced by Christians who converted into muslim at early İslam era, they brought their faith into muslims.
# 10,11 He didnt have the right to take back his life again, unless God wished so. There is a story in Quran similarly for “Companions of the cave”
18: 9-12 Or dost thou reflect that the companions of the cave and of the inscription were wonders among our Signs? Behold, the youths betook themselves to the cave: they said, our Lord bestow on us mercy from thyself, and dispose of our affair for us in the right way. Then we draw (a veil) over their ears, for a number of years, in the cave, (so that they heard not): Then we roused them, in order to test which of the two parties was best at calculating the term of years they had tarried
25- So they stayed in their cave three hundred years, and (some) add nine (more)
#12,13 Similar to Bible (John 19:26), We have the strong belief that, all kinds of decaying has no influence on our resurrection on dooms day, as we will be on a new fresh body all over the beginning. We will be given birth again correct even with our finger prints. A scientific calculation has prooved that the necessary root codes of entire human ever lived on earth may be contained in a small cup of coffee.
75:3- 4 Does man think that We cannot assemble his bones? Nay, We are able to put together in perfect order the very tips of his fingers.
40- Has not He, (the same), the power to give life to the dead?
#14,15 Our bodies are not needed for us resurrected. We are raised from earth as the first creation.
21: 104- The day that we roll up the heavens like a scroll rolled up for books (completed), Even as We produced The first Creation, so Shall we produce A new one: a promise we have undertaken: truly shall We fulfil it.
22: 5- O mankind! if ye have a doubt about resurrection, (consider) that we created you out of dust, then out of Sperm, then out of a leech like clot, then out of a morsel of flesh, partly unformed, in order that We may manifest (our power) to you; and We cause whom We will to rest in the wombs For an appointed term, Then do we bring you out as babes, then (foster you) that ye may reach your age Of full strength; and some of you are called to die, and some are sent back to the feeblest old age, So that they know nothing after having know (much). And (further), thou seest the earth barren and lifeless, but when We pour down rain on it, it is stirred (to life), it swells, and it puts forth every kind of beautiful growth (in pairs).
23 35-38 Does he promise that when ye die and become dust and bones, ye shall be brought forth (again)? Far, very far is that which ye are promised! There is nothing but Our life in this world! We shall die and we live! But we shall never be raised up again!He is only a man who invents a lie against Allah, but we are not the ones to believe in him!
23 :82- They say: What! When we die and become dust and bones, could we really be raised up again?
#16 We muslims believe exactly same things what you wrote. Except The translation may be smooth, or may be understood differently by different comunities. Translation may even help to get the more true meanings. It may be refined from the traditional views. Unnecessary biases such as women dress code, beating and not only vine but all intoxicans were haram. Original arab Quran has not been well understood by living arabs of that day and today. Either because of dual meanings, or future events that should take place or yet to be explored, or left delibeartely to the comments / various applications of different cultures/ times .
We are required to observe Bible as our holy book, God word, otherwise not accepted as muslim. We hold the scepticism for the Bible was edited and manupulated way false from the original, the genuine is kept at divine recording at heavens.
For your english translation smoothness complaint. I suggest different books to check compare from various authors. You will find the correct meaning/best sound through different views.
Those verses are very rare that are not unanimously agreed, however the few ones are very imporant that change all perception on İslam. Such as head cover, adultry, theft, enemy punishment, and alcholic beverage consumption. I reccommend following links for consulting.
-Various (10) translators into English
quranbrowser.com/
-In different languages
kuran.gen.tr/
-You may have your free copy from
cair.com/explorethequran/request.asp
Thinking minds are most welcome, true way of living only be acquired through questioning.
Name:Eagle •
Date: 03/28/07 5:45
A: Roy:
Thanks for responding to me. I was afraid that since I am pretty naïve about Islam that I might not get any response.
The Qur’an seems to tell the same story as the Torah (the Old Testament for me). But it is as though two people saw the same event and both tell the story from their own cultural perspective. The Old Testament has a lot more detail.
The Old Testament clearly indicates that Adam was created in the image of God. Genesis 1:26-27 “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female create he them.” I personally believe that the record means exactly what it says. But I can understand why the Qur’an would be a little ambiguous about it, not knowing if it means only the spirit likeness, or the body. I believe the “soul” to be the body and spirit united. I do wonder why God would breathe his soul into the body of some inferior being, not his own kind. I pour out my soul into my children. So it is easy for me to accept that God would put his own soul into the body of his children.
Also, as additional proof that God really is like us: when God was writing the Ten Commandments for Moses (Musa) he saw the commands written by the “finger of the Lord”. And also in Exodus 24:9, the Old Testament says “Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.”
So that mentions God’s finger, his feet, and also his hand. Perhaps his soul has attributes similar to the human body? (but "as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.") But I have not found in the Qur’an any mention of this incident.
Anyway, the point is, coming back to the tomb question: Could Jesus have died and left his bones to be entombed? It seems from what you said, that from the Islamic view, it could be. The body is just a shell that can be left behind. The spirit has the power to create the flesh and bones body again in the resurrection. Jesus said (John 2:19) “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? But he spake of the temple of his body.”
So the bottom line again, for me, is that I can accept either way. If the box in the tomb contained the bones of Jesus Christ, I know that he could “rear it up” again out of new material. I was very, very interested to see the quotes from the Qur’an that tell the same belief. Our spirit knows our own DNA and we can recreate this through the power of God.
Back to some more of your comments, though. I think we are very close in our beliefs that Jesus could not take back his life unless it was the will of God (Allah).
He said in John 7:28-29: Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am; and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not. But I now him: for I am from him, and he hath sent me.”
And before he was crucified he prayed to not have to “drink the cup” yet he said “Nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.” So we think the same about that.
I am perhaps a different kind of Christian in some ways. I belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (a “Mormon”). Some of the things that make us “different” are that we believe in modest dress for our men and women; we do not drink alcohol; and we believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. But we agree that there are a lot of things that are not completely correct. But also feel that God has protected the book so that the main points of the religion are there for us. So it that way we are similar to Muslims. But we fully accept Christ as divine and as the Son of God. So in that way we differ strongly.
But when Christ comes again, he will set things straight for us all. I read in the Qur’an (Surah 16:92) “Allah only tries you by this; and He will most certainly make clear to you on the resurrection day that about which you differed.” Perhaps on that day we will discover that we were not so very different, after all.
Name:Nate Spain •
Date: 03/28/07 12:09
A: "I take solace in the fact I live in a forest. I say two words to my wife, and it confuses her, But the trees are great listeners.... "
You live in a forest? Red, is your real name John? And was your mother a publisher? If so, it's been a while!! I tried to email you but couldn't reach you. I see your books are still up [well, if it's you]. Been wondering if you're okay, etc.
Peace out,
Nate
Name:Red •
Date: 03/28/07 12:14
A: No, Wrong guy.
Name:Nate Spain •
Date: 03/28/07 18:40
A: Cool.
Name:onewhoknows •
Date: 03/28/07 19:13
A: I don't know why people have so readily accepted the tomb's authenticiy, when it could have been easily counterfeited anytime after the death of Jesus Christ. I have studied he Shroud of Turin for almost 30 years and I am amazed at its abundance of evidence and complexities. If anyone wants to discuss this, I would love to. If you want to research on your own, there are plenty of good websites.
Name:Nate Spain •
Date: 03/29/07 1:05
A: onewhoknows, I have a question. And you can confirm this with Mr. Barry Swortz of the Shroud of Turin website. Barry was the photographer of the STURP (Shroud of Turin Research Project) team of scientists. Barry photographed every single square centimeter of the Santa Sindone in 1978 for the STURP team.
Back in 2001, I asked Barry whether he was aware of whether or not the gas chromatography test had been performed on the Santa Sindone. At first he said, "Well...of course." Then he stated he wasn't sure, but that he was going to be having a luncheon meeting with Dr. Adler in Turin, and that he would ask him. He told me he would get back to me.
Well, he did have that luncheon meeting, and he did ask Dr. Adler whether or not such a test had been performed. Barry told me that Dr. Adler told him that the gas chromatography test had NOT been performed in 1978, nor had it been performed, that ne knew of, at any time after 1978 up to 2001. So, for 23 years--from 1978 to 2001--the gas chromatography test had not been performed.
Now, the reason I asked Barry this is because I had been told that the gas chromatography test was a test that would determine whether blood was PRE-MORTEM (before death) or POST-MORTEM (after death) blood. Now, think about that: Why on earth would the STURP team NOT perform a test that would determine whether or not the stains that Dr. Heller confirmed as blood stains, were pre-mortem or post-mortem?
The importance of such a test is quite obvious: If the Man of the Shroud, as he is called, was taken down from the cross ALIVE, then the blood found on the Santa Sindone, obviously, would be PRE-MORTEM blood. And, of course, if the man had been dead, then the blood would be post-mortem.
In reading Heller's book, it seemed clear to me that ASSUMPTIONS were being made about the Man of the Shroud. It appeared clear to me that the STURP team--as well as other scientists that have studied the Santa Sindone since then--were beginning their study with the assumption that the man of the Shroud had been dead when the Shroud was draped over him.
It causes one to wonder whether or not the conclusions of the STURP team, and others, are tained due to their beginning assumptions. Now, I am not a scientist AT ALL. It could be that the gas chromatography test is not that important, I don't know. But Dr. Adler did confirm, through Barry, that that test had NOT been performed.
So, why would they NOT want to know if the blood is pre-mortem or post-mortem? Or do they? If the blood is pre-mortem, then the Man of the Shroud SURVIVED the crucifixion, obviously.
Although the STURP team was the first team to do extensive real science on the Santa Sindone, one Dr. Theodor Hirt studied the Shroud back in the 1960s. And he concluded that the Man of the Shroud had been alived when he was covered with that cloth. Just a few tiny excerpts from his conclusion, although it does not do justice to reproduce such a small excerpt:
"...the traces visible on the Shroud can have originated only from the blood that was flowing from open wounds..."
"There is no blood pressure in a dead body, and, as everybody who understands anything about human blood circulation knows, without pressure blood does not flow from a wound..."
"But what happens [at the removal of the crown of thorns] if here is blood pressure--that is, if the heart is still beating? The little wounds fill with blood; the blood flows from the head into the hair; and because it keeps flowing, it trickles through the hair onto the Shroud--as we can see on the Shroud of Jesus. That is why it cannot have been a corpse that was in the Shroud--the body was not dead.
"We can all see the evidence on the Shroud, as revealed by a camera nineteen hundred years later--and the camera does not lie...It is so obvious and easy to understand that I am certain you have followed my reasoning..."
"Evidence on the Shroud proving activity of the heart during the body's removal from the cross was bound to lead scientists to look for traces of even later bleeding...One instance is the blood from the back of the head with which we dealt this morning.
"The next photograph (Picture 21) provides further proof of heart activity while the body was in the Shroud. It shows the hands crossed; it also shows the direction of blood streak 3, which comes from the nail wound. Bearing in mind the position of the body in the Shroud, it becomes obvious that only pressure from the heart could force blood to come from the wound.
"The left hand was at the highest point of the prone body and blood does not flow upward in the body without pressure (see also the following photographs). There can be no possible doubt that blood streak 3 came into being when the body was laying flat, because careful and extensive reconstructions of the angles and the respective distances of the blood streaks from each other prove that this bleeding could not have occurred earlier."
At this point, Dr. Hirt's assistant, Dr. Ernst, took ovef:
"For the same reason we must take serious account of Picture 27, which shows the organs in the human chest. The position of the wound in the side, which is generally accepted to hvae been between the fifth and sixth rib, makes an injury to the heart unlikely..."
"It is time the assertion that the body in the Shroud of Turin had suffered an injury to the heart was officially retracted because it is based not on scientific research but on an artificially constructed hypothesis based on faith."
A quick note here, onewhoknows. One of the head guys of the STURP team, who was in charge of organizing it (and who's name, unfortunately, I cannot remember. But Barry can confirm what I'm going to say) made a speech AT HIS CHURCH, declaring that the Santa Sindone was a sign of the truth of the Resurrection. How can a SCIENTIST make such a statement, even in his church? It calls into question the integrity of the STURP team, although I believe Heller was fully straight. Not so sure about others, except Barry.
"In scientific fact, no post-mortem bleedings are on the Holy Shroud, because the position of the marks and the blood serum borders around the 'identified human blood' prove active bleeding as a result of heart activity."
To read all of Dr. Hirt's conclusions (IF you can find the book!!), get hold of the book, Christ Did Not Perish on the Cross, by Kurt Berna. It's going to be hard to fine. Just like Andreas Faber Kaiser's, Jesus died in Kashmir, is extremely hard to find. There are REAONS for that.
I wish I could reproduce the rest. You can find the full text of Dr. Hirt's conclusions in a book entitled, Christ did not Perish on the Cross. It was written by Kert (Kurt) Berna, who also went by the name of John Reban. He was not a scientists. He was considered extremely eccentric, and for YEARS he was a thorn in the side of the Catholic Church, often showing up at the Vatican demanding entrance, etc.
So, as such, he was dismissed by some as a nut. But Kert Berna, in recording Dr. Hirt's analysis, might probably go down in history, in the future, as someone who exposed something the Church does not want the world to know: That, yes, the Santa Sindone IS real; it IS the cloth that covered the body of Jesus. But it does not prove that he died. It proves, rather, that he SURVIVED.
Another story that Barry told me [and you can confirm this with him] by emailing him at his website] was that when they were actually studying the Shroud, one of the scientists was wearing a crucifix--WHILE studying the Shroud. Barry told him that he should be try to be aware of the importance of at least LOOKING neutral, so that the press would not accuse the STURP scientists of being biased one way or the other.
What I am saying is that one wonders whether or not these so-called scientific conclusions about the Man of the Shroud being "dead" are true or not. People hate to hear about massive conspiracies. But, personally, I would NOT be surprised if a certain...agreement had been made somewhere.
So many of the scientists were Christians, though claiming "no agenda." What made Kurt Berna such a royal pain in the side of the Church was that he was a DEDICATED CATHOLIC. Kurt believed that there was no contradiction in the idea of Jesus surviving the crucifixion, and the idea of "resurrection."
The Church didn't know what to do with him! LOL!! Because he was not denying the "resurrection." He was not denying the "divinity" of Christ. But what he had put forward, along with Dr. Hirt, was that the "resurrection" was a DIFFERENT kind of resurrection than that taught by the Church.
By the way, this idea of the "burst of energy" that made the image on the Shroud was disproved by Vignon, and, later, by Dr. Garza Galdez in his 1999 book, The DNA of God. Valdez confirmed what Paul Vignon had concluded in the early 1900s: and that is that the image on the Santa Sindone is a CONTACT IMAGE.
Oh, by the way, I just rememberd that guy's name: Tom D'Muhala. He was a founding member of STURP. And he gave a speech, at his church, entitled, "Where do we go from here?" List to what he said:
"I think this [the Shroud] is a wonderful tool for fulfilling part of that commission of those that preach the gospel..."
"Despite that, inside I was just screaming to say 'Jesus Christ-crucified..."
"...the Shroud is the vehicle for the message of Jesus Christ."
Now, here is a man who is supposed to be on a team of SCIENTISTS, and he's testifying, as in church, that the Shroud of Turin is a "vehicle for the message of Jesus Christ."
I want to ask people to beware of the Shroud Crowd that would have you believe that the science on the Shroud meticulously "proves" that the Man of The Shroud was dead. Since the time of Burna--and I hesitate to state this--there has been a very-well ORCHESTRATED attempt to keep the real conclusions about the Santa Sindone away from the public.
The Church was originally going to allow 10 labs to study the Shroud, but whittled it down to 3 that IT picked. And there have been other disturbing things, but I won't get into that.
In my view, Dr. Hurt's analysis was probably correct. Whoever the Man of the Shroud was, he was alive when he was taken down from that cross. And the stains on that Shroud show NOT that the man died, but that he LIVED after his ordeal.
There has been DNA found on the Santa Sindone, as you know. It would be interesting if there is ever found something inside the Roza Bal tomb in Kashmir. Of course, the Church would never allow a comparsion. But it is interesting to think about.
Regards,
Nate
Name:onewhoknows •
Date: 03/29/07 3:07
A: Nate, I will try to find some answers for you. To be honest, I have never heard your theory that the image on the Shroud came from a man who had never been dead. Of course, I know that some religions, (Islamic, I think) believe the "swoon theory" is correct. So, how do you think this image was made on the cloth, by a swooned man?
I will debate your point by saying that the Roman soldiers were convinced He was dead. Otherwise, they would have broken His legs. (Instead they pierced Him with a spear.) I personally thought this could have been a lung wound, and not necessarily in the heart.
There have been several physicians and pathologists that have studied the Shroud. I remember one saying something about a rigor mortis (sp?) spasm, but I will have to look that up.
I am a med tech and work with blood from the living, although occasionally some of my coworkers might have to draw a sample in the morgue.
Many tests have been performed on the Shroud's blood, but I don't remember any GLC either. However, I am not sure that this test would even support the point you are trying to make.
I'll do some research and get back to you.
I
Name:onewhoknows •
Date: 03/29/07 3:52
A: To Nate again, Another reason that Christians believe Jesus died for their sins, (and you probably know this) is justice. Is it not possible that there are laws of justice, just like there are laws of gravity, thermodynamics, etc.? And perhaps we don't fully understand those laws.
One interesting observation I made when teaching elementary school, humans at a very young age desire and demand justice. How many times did I hear, "That's not fair!" Of course they didn't all agree on WHAT was fair. So where does this hunger for justice come from? Perhaps from being created in God's image?
And another reason why God MIGHT have allowed Jesus to be crucified. Maybe this gory death was one of the best ways to get our attention. Unfortunately, when I look at some of today's movie trailers, it seems like people are interested, and even entertained, by other's suffering. The gorier, the better. I think this is really sad, but it must be in peoples' nature. Otherwise Hollywood would just make "happy" films.
Name:Nate Spain •
Date: 03/29/07 12:19
A: onewhoknows, I'm actually supposed to be using my time for some other things, and I'm getting behind. So, I'll answer as briefly as I can.
And since you're intensely interested in the Santa Sindone, I strongly suggest that you pick up the book entitled The DNA of God, by Garza-Valdez. Read pages 55 to 59. Of course it is better to read the entire book.
Another important book to red is The Jesus Conspiracy, by Holger Kersten. The conspiracy part of his theory regarding the Catholic Church's manipulation of the studies on the Shroud (accusing them of replacing samples taken from the Shroud) have been pretty much soundly debunked by Ian Wilson, a Catholic Shroud writer.
But, other parts of the book are extremely powerful. In The Jesus Conspiracy, Holger explains the work done by Vignon in the early 1900s, in which Vignon explained how the image was made. In my mind, it is not insignificant that Garza-Valdez, a modern Shroud researcher, reached the same conclusion that Vignon did back in the early 1900s.
It is important to read Holger's account of Vignon's work, and also Garza Valdez's study. Very important.
But, I will very briefly explain, although you will have to read Garza-Valdez's book to understand what "bioplastic coating" is, a natural coating that develops on ancient artifacts over centuries. Interesting.
Anyway, to summarize it, the darker areas on the image contained more natural depositis of bioplastic coating. As such, the bacteria in those areas grew faster than the bacteria in the areas that had less contact with the body of "Jesus" (or, whoever the Man of the Shroud was).
The concentrations of sweat, salt, oils, blood, and urea," would be higher in areas of the Shroud that had touched the body, and lower in areas that the Shroud had not come in contact with, assuming the Shroud to have been laid over the body, rather than tightly wrapped.
That's it in summary, though to do justice to that summary you really need to read Garza-Valdez's book. He says that, "those who say it is not a contact image are just guessing," and that such speculation has nothing to do with scientific fact.
For instance, scientists have speculated that the image was made by some burst of radiation. Well, that's just **religious** speculation that comes in part from Church **artistic depictions" of the resurrection, and also from interpretations of the Biblical account.
Again, read Holger Kersten's account of Paul Vignon's study that was done in the early 1900s. Important.
Regarding the soldier who pierced Jesus body, again I'm going to have you do some homework, since you're interested. You MUST read Holger Kersten's, The Jesus Conspiracy. Holger did some incredible historical detective work, as well as his personal study (though not hands-on) of the Shroud.
I am sorry that I can't get into it now. But once you read his book, I think you might be challenged to re-think some things.
Regarding the issue of justice, I had mentioned before somewhere that that is precisely why I do not believe in the Christian doctrine of atonement--because it is unjust. It is not justice to make someone else die for MY sins.
That is injustice at its height. I cannot accept that God would kill his "son" for ME. That does not make me feel good. That idea makes me feel horrible. I was raised a Catholic for 12 years--8 years in grammar school, and 4 years high school.
And that issue of Jesus dying for me was horrible in my mind. In grammar school, they had this life-sized crucifix that I had to pass each day going to class. That crucifix, at least they'd told us, had been donated by someone in Rome, Italy.
It was not only life-sized, but it was life-like, and it depicted a "Jesus" whose face was twisted in the deepest agony. The worst thing for me was to arrive at school late. Because I'd have to go upstairs to my first period class ALONE. I'd have to pass that HORRID statue by myself.
When I got halfway between the first and second floors, I would put my head down and RUN real fast, so that I would not have to look at that statute. I sometimes thought that Jesus would start talking to me, asking me to help him.
No, I see no justice in killing someone else for my sake. We would not accept such a thing in our human lives.
And, I don't accept the explanation that "it is a mystery." That does not work for me.
Regards,
Nate
Name:Nate Spain •
Date: 03/29/07 17:00
A: onewhoknows, another thing: In your capacity as a med tech, keep and open mind when studying this Shroud business. Re-read whatever you read before about the Shroud. But this time (and this is just for the sake of experiment) **begin** your analysis with the assumption that the Man of the Shroud was ALIVE.
You don't have to believe that. Just do it as an experiment.
For instance, ask yourself a question: If there were concentrations of sweat, salt, oils, blood, and urea, that made a "contact image", could a DEAD body exude sweat, salts, oils, blood, and urea?
Not even Garza-Valdez, ca Catholic scientist, questioned this. Could it be that his **doctrine** prevents him from seeing that "Jesus" may have been alive under that Shroud?
You tell me, because I'm no doctor: Does urea exude from a dead body? I do not think so.
Also, if it is assumed that the 100 pounds of herbs that Nicodemus (read the Bible) brought to the tomb were being used for **medicinal reasons,** then could those herbs somehow have been combined, with the emissions of the body, to help cause that image? Could Nicodemus & Joseph of Arimathea [who my gut tells me were working feverishly to save his life] have applied those herbs, mentione in the Bible, to Jesus' body, and then placed a **different** cloth over him, other than the one that was first draped over him when he was taken down? Could that second cloth be the Santa Sindone? (as you know, and as I think I recall, there is mention, in history, of a second cloth. It's mentioned, I think, in one of Ian Wilson's books on the Shroud).
onewhoknows, I challenge you to play objective scientist for a while, even for fun. It won't hurt anything. Don't look at the studies in a Christian light, just for the heck of it.
People **did** survive crucifixions, as I proved by quoting Flavius Josephus at other posts. It happened. If taken down in time, as was Flavius' friend, a crucifixion victim could live.
Name:sam •
Date: 03/29/07 21:52
A: THE TRUTH & THE LOGIC.
In front of us are three HOLY BOOKS:
1- THE BIBLE (OT),
2- THE GOSPELS,
3- THE QURAN.
In this forums which deals with the "lost tomb of Jesus" , or in the many others which come as a results of different discoveries, "Gospel of Judas etc.", people using these books to support their claims, some claimng that they are the word of God, others believe they are inspired by Him. Some belive in theirs but not in the others!?.
The logic says:"if they are (the books) His word or inspired by Him, they should bring within them just the truth and nothing but the truth, otherwise they are not from God or belong to Him."
Saying all that, then the only thing left, is to go back to these book and analyse them, and let their words be the judge fo it is authenticity.
Let us first take the word of Jesus as a guide. "But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment. FOR BY YOUR WORDS YOU WILL BE JUSTIFIED, AND BY YOUR WORDS YOU WILL BE CONDEMNED." M-12:36/37
Spoken words and written words are the same, this fact should be known to everyone. Jesus words came to Him from God, and they represents the truth.
As for the Bible, there are many stories told but they cannot represent the truth:
1- The story of CREATION in Genesis:
Christian Encyclopedia. The creation stories in the Biblical book of GENESIS.
Creation is described in Genesis 1:1 to 2:3 as occurring in six "days":
Day 1: creation of light and its separation from darkness.
Day 2: separation of the sky and oceans.
Day 3: separation of land from the oceans; spreading of plants and grass and trees across the land.
Day 4: Creation of the sun, moon, and stars.
Day 5: Creation of sea animals and birds.
Day 6: Creation of the land animals. Creation of humanity, "someone like ourselves" (Living Bible).
Day 7: God rested. Followers of the Documentary Hypothesis believe this to have been a later addition, 4 placed there to give theological justification for the Sabbath (Saturday as a day of rest).
This sequence does contain some problems.
Light was listed as being created on day 1, but its source (the sun and stars) did not appear until day 4.
The sun and the stars were created in day 4 after the creation of the earth!!!.
Birds were said to be created before other land animals. Paleontologists, who almost universally support the theory of evolution, point out that the fossil record shows the opposite order.
The most controversial debate over this creation story relates to its time span. Genesis 1 and 2 explain how Creation of Earth's life forms, the Earth itself, and the rest of the universe took six days. Supporters of the theory of evolution find evidence for a universe that has been evolving for about 14 billion years.
We are in the 21st century and we know that what came in the Bible about the creation, does not represents the truth, for that cannot be the word of God, period. But still those who believe blindly in everything without using the logic.
2-The story of Abraham: G16:1-21
I spent a lot of time reading the Bible (the King James Bible & the Catholic online Bible, NAB), and I was surprised to find things which are not true, plus the big difference between the two , here some:
FIRST: when Ishmail was born, Abraham was 86.
When Isaac was born, Abraham was 100, that make the age of Ishmael 14.
When Isaac had the weaning party at the age of 2 , Ishmael was at age of 16
SECOND: At the age of 16 Ishmael became a full grown up man and not a child, and at that age at that time (the time of Abraham) men usually get married. So when I read the story here it seems to be not true, (putting it on her shoulder, and the child )(So she put the child down under a shrub ), when they say “put the child down” that means he was carried, and I don’t think a 16 years old young man need to be carried and put down, and under the shrub, and to cry ,
THIRD: the words ‘Hagar’, ‘Ishmael’ they come with red underline as if they are wrong , I think that is wrong, they are Just names like the others, and as for Ishmael “Behold, I have blessed him” God blessed him, and Hagar “angel of God called to Hagar” that mean she was blessed too. And i don’t think the others opinion about them, and the hate will matter much, but in the contrary they will be judged for it.
GENESIS:
KJB- 16:3 And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.
NAB-16-3-Thus, after Abram had lived ten years in the land of Canaan, his wife Sarai took her maid, Hagar the Egyptian, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his concubine.
WIFE: married woman esp. in relation to her husband.
CONCUBINE: woman who cohabits with man without marriage. “ Adultery”
I cannot believe that a prophet will accept to take a woman without marriage . Hagar is his wife, and his son Ishmael was named by God, and blessed by God many times.
KJB- 16:11 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
NAB-16-11 Besides, the LORD'S messenger said to her: You are now pregnant and shall bear a son; you shall name him Ishmael, For the LORD has heard you, God has answered you.
KJB- 16:12And he will be a "WILD MAN" ; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee:
NAB-16-12-He shall be a "WILD ASS OF AMAN", his hand against everyone, and everyone's hand against him; In opposition to all his kin shall he encamp.
WILD MAN ..WILD ASS OF A MAN . How can he blessed by God, then be called in such names . You think God uses such language . the next verses will show you the truth.
KJB- 17:20 Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
NAB-17:20 As for Ishmael, I am heeding you: I hereby bless him. I will make him fertile and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall become the father of twelve chieftains, and I will make of him a great nation.
KJB-21:9 And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, "MOCKING".
NAB-21:9 Sarah noticed the son whom Hagar the Egyptian had borne to Abraham "PLAYING" with her son Isaac;
MOCKING in one and PLAYING in the other . I imagine that Ishmael was looking after his young brother and taking care of him, while the big party going on and everyone having a good time, but the hate inside the heart of the old woman Sarah to Hagar and her son has to come out, and the reason was just a complete selfishness, and it is all about the "INHERITANCE". The next verse prove that:
KJB-21:10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham, cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be "HEIR" with my son Isaac.
NAB-21-10 so she demanded of Abraham: Drive out that slave and her son No son of that slave is going to share the "INHERITANCE" with my son Isaac
KJB-21:13And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed.
NAB-21-13 As for the son of the slave woman, I will make a great nation of him also, since he too is your offspring.
KJB-21:14 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba.
NAB-21-14 Early the next morning Abraham got some bread and a skin of water and gave them to Hagar. Then, "PLACING THE CHILD ON HER BACK" (16 YEARS OLD!!!), he sent her away. As she roamed aimlessly in the wilderness of Beer-sheba,
“putting it on her shoulder, and the child”...”placing the child on her back .” How can Abraham the 100+ years old put his 16 years old son on his wife back?
KJB-21:15 And the water was spent in the bottle, and she cast "THE CHILD" under one of the shrubs.
NAB-21-15 the water in the skin was used up. So she put "THE CHILD" down under a shrub,
KJB-21:17 And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is.
NAB-21-17 God heard the boy's cry, and God's messenger called to Hagar from heaven: What is the matter, Hagar? Don't be afraid; God has heard the boy's cry in this plight of his.
KJB-21:18 Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation.
NAB-21-18 Arise, lift up the boy and hold him by the hand; for I will make of him a great nation.
she cast (throw) the child under one of the shrubs....she put the child down under a shrub....God heard the voice of the lad....God heard the boy's cry....lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand.... lift up the boy and hold him by the hand. Here we should not forget that the CHILD, the LAD, and THE BOY is a young man at the age of 16.
3- Creation, Flood, and Abraham through Joseph derived either from existing historical references OR by Moses or revelation from God (We are not told specifically.)
-Exodus – Giving of the Law (Torah) and Instructions for Building the Tabernacle.
-Leviticus – More Law (Torah) historical events
-Numbers – More Law (Torah), census, historical events
-Deuteronomy – explanation of the law (Torah).
There are laws & historical events in the Bible, and while we can accept the laws (THE COMMANDMENTS) are from God, and without any question , but the stories and the historical events can be questioned because those belongs to people and sometimes people are not perfect, and they do not always tell the truth specially at those early times. Myths were accepted and believed as real thing
So when we read this:
"Archbishop James Ussherof Armagh, Ireland, calculated from the Bible (augmented by some astronomy and numerology) that creation began on October 23, 4004 BC."
then everyone will understand what I meant.
And we read this:
Bishop John S. Spong wrote:
"The bible full of contradictions and errors."
then everyone will understand that I am not alone in my findings.
and when we read this from the Bishop:
"The gospels cannot be trusted to be reliable."
"PAUL quite obviously was not Trinitarian?."
"I am not interested in preserving the doctrine of the TRINITY. I do not believe that the ultimate truth of GOD has been captured in the Trinitarian formula."
"They were moving the Christ experience far beyond its original vocabulary."
Adding to all that, what we read here, from the former catholic NUN.
Mary Ann Collins said:
"I believe in the trinity. There is only one God.
But there is the father, the son (Jesus), and the holy spirit.
Jesus Christ is truly God and truly Man.!!!"
Then she said:"I DON’T UNDERSTAND HOW THIS WORK."
then we can understand that what we found in the Bible from right & wrong information, also the same can be found in the Gospels. SINCE
The words of Jesus "TO FULFIL" the laws in the bible, and can be acepted with no question asked, but the words of Paul, John, Mark etc., can be questioned, because sometime they tell us stories which cannot be logically (or by a common sense) accepted. Sometime the words of Jesus were changed by those who wanted to play with the truth as in this:
John-9:35 (NASB)- "Jesus heard that they had put Him out, and finding Him, He said, "DO YOU BELIEVE IN THE SON OF MAN?"
John-9:35 (the Bible-catholic online)- ".....He said,"DO YOU BELIEVE IN THE SON OF GOD?"
That what we call forgery. No one can change the word of Jesus.
And the story of the Devil tempting Jesus in Matthew-4:1-11, Just a faulse one, and cannot be accepte since there were no witness to record what went on between Jesus and the devil, word by word. And this story did not come from Jesus, but the devil might be the one who is responsible for it.
Adding to the forgeries, what we read from the past history of the churches in Rome. The burning of people and the other Gospels, plus the six dicades of debating about Jesus under the influence of the Roman's Emperors to bring the trinity formula which no one understand how it works logically.
The Bible claims that "GOD CREATED MAN IN HIS OWN IMAGE"?, did anyone saw the image of God "THE HOLY SPIRIT", and Jesus said, "GOD WHOM YOU DON'T KNOW", "HE WHO IS IN HEAVEN"?.
The fact and the truth that "MAN CREATED GOD IN HIS OWN IMAGE", then make Him walk with Abraham and do other things like man do, then created a son for Him, then they created Him by making Him three persons, then they mixed the three person to become one, then they make the son God, and they make the one "GOD" the son the creator!!!, CREATION AFTER CREATION, MAN CREATIONS!!!.
All that creation came from man, and they try to prove them by the words of Paul, and the others!, but not BY Jesus words!?.
The commandment "THE WORD OF GOD" said:
#1- YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME.
And Jesus Said (His word is from God too):
-THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD.
-NO ONE IS GOOD EXCEPT GOD ALONE.
-THE ONE AND ONLY GOD.
-THE ONE WHO SENT ME.
-THE WORD WHICH YOU HEAR IS NOT MINE, BUT THE FATHER'S WHO SENT ME. ( THE WORD OF THE GOD'S WHO SENT ME).
-I CAN DO NOTHING ON MY OWN INITIATIVE.
-TRULY, TRULY, I SAY TO YOU, A SLAVE IS NOT GREATER THAN HIS MASTER, NOR IS ONE WHO IS SENT (JESUS) GREATER THAN THE ONE WHO SENT HIM (GOD).
My question" if Jesus is not equal to God, and He is a sevant and slave to God, then how can He be GOD?.
The authenticity of a book can be found by the informations that holds which suppose to be accepted logically, so as I brought some of the words from the Bible and the Gospels, I will bring some words from the Quran, the last holy book:
- 2:256 There shall be no compulsion in acceptance of the religion.
(that is not the same by the others, millions of people killed by the Chritians "the inquisition" and many others)
- 29:20 O MUHAMMAD, say to them, "GO TRAVEL THROUGH THE EARTH AND OBSERVE HOW THE CREATION BEGAN.
( in the other religions many were killed, burned or arrested because they find the truth about creation (Galileo just one example)
- 41:53 WE will show them our signs in the horizons and within themselves UNTIL IT BECOMES CLEAR to them THAT IT IS THE TRUTH, but it is not sufficient concerning YOUR LORD that HE is, over all things, A WITNESS?.
(Who is better witness than God Himself?. People at that time 1400 years back they don't know what are those signs)
But let us read what God said:
- 38:88 AND YOU WILL 'SURELY' KNOW THE TRUTH OF ITS INFORMATION 'AFTER TIME'.
(it says here that we will come to the truth of what was mentioned in the Quran AFTER TIME, and for sure what we discover in the HOEIZON, in the universe today is another world, a world behind any imagination, also we discoverd in OURSELVES more things, another world within behind any imagination, the marvels of science which show you on the screen inside your body and how it works, and bring to you the cell and the DNA , all those marvels are SIGNS and a proof to the power of God.)
29:19 Have you considered how God begins creation and then repeated it?
(The Geologic records tells us that early life on earth started at the CAMBRIAN period 600 million years ago, then followed by another 15 geological peiod until we come to the recent QUATERNARY period (1-2 million years), which brought the modern life that include apes, pig, whale, horse, plants etc. and then man. during these 15 periods many spieces were created and then died, there were a continious chain of creations all the time, that is until man came. GOD BEGINS CREATION AND THEN REPEATED IT. WE ARE HIS LAST CREATION AND THE BEST. God gave us the brain, the tool to know Him and to submit ourselves to Him.)
21:30 Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heaven and earth were a joined entity, and WE SEPERATED THEM.
(Today scientists believe that all matters in out universe are from one origin, and our universe and what is in it came as a result of "BIG BANG" which happen 13-20 billion years ago.)
51:47 And the heaven WE constructed with strength and INDEED WE ARE ITS EXPANDER.
( THE EXPANDING UNIVERSE IS A PROVEN FACT TODAY, and the Quran, before 1400 years mentioned the seperation and the expanding "SKY" heaven (In Arabic was mentioned as "SAMAWAT" and that word means skys, which we give it today the term universe, and the term heaven was used wrong because that in Arabic "JANNAT".)
21:33 And it is HE who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; ALL HEAVENLY BODIES, IN AN ORBIT ARE SWIMMING.
(Galileo was put under house arrest when he found out that the earth and the moon are arbitting the sun!!!, and Galileo he did not know that our sun and its planets are going in an orbit around our galaxy, once every 250 million years, the billions of stars and planets among the billions of galaxies, all are going in an orbit. "ALL HEAVENLY BODIES GOING IN AN ORBIT", IF THAT WE KNOW TODAY IS TRUE THEN LOGICALLY WE CAN SAY THAT THE QURAN WORDS ARE TRUE AND THEY SURELY REPRESENT THE WORD OF GOD.
There are many other scientific examples in the Quran. But I don't think that those who believe in the false stories or make their own false stories, and those who kill for them will ever accept the truth.
They built an Empire and make it grow by the sword and fire for 2000 years, and they will never accept anything that might have an effect on it, they will fight hard to keep it, the truth that came from the finding of the Gospels and the truth that might come from the lost tomb of Jesus will nevever be accepted. Who care about the truth, there is business to run, and positions to hold on.
God bless you.
Name:roy •
Date: 03/30/07 1:08
A: Nate ,
İ am surprised deeply by hearing those moving statements of yours reaching the same beliefs of mine after study thoroughly the doctrines of mine. Mental free minds can have the truths, it proved to me. However you are exceptional, unique, different than millions of christian. But you are the true christian who is closer to god i bet for that with my life.
nate spain wrote:
İ have **lost** friendships. İ am somewhat, in fact, isolated. İ do not have a real community of any type--not really. And it is because i made the mistake [it now seems like a mistake] of being such a **purist** in my need to "be right" that, somehow, i ended up virtually alone, except for my wife of 20 years.
But because of ***your nature***, you start beginning to recognize something: that your group don't have "the" truth. That there are parts of its doctrines, or interpretations of those doctrines, that don't seem right.
Roy wrote:
İt is a proud thing, many envy those who are correct, strive for virtues believed , although you have some consequences to pay the price to be a leader. Some extreme cases, it is matter of death or live.
The man below is a pillar in his understanding of our muslim doctrine. He was in his unique journey in his spiritual life from one extreme to another, paved with bad luck, strugling against rule for comunity got bruises, scars, had a difficult life but living as a proud one. A leader. He is strongly against now, the story that you put down. ( he was once even jailed to be fundementalist defending hadiths. Luckily understood this isn't in quran, but in alleged sayings of muhammad.)
İ put down a life story very similar what you felt, i met his books recently at a bookstore and checked his website.
Yuksel.org/e/
Nate wrote:
Now, here's something very funny i heard about this dog business. And i don't know if it's true, because i don't know arabic. Maybe our muslim friend here, roy, can confirm this. Truth, check this out!! Now, the person who claimed that muhammad said this thing about dogs not being allowed in the house was a guy named abu hurairah, who was supposedly a companion of muhammad's, i think. And he is the one, in the sayings of muhammad, who claimed that he hard muhammad say that there should be no dogs in the house. Now check this out. İ was told by a muslim that there was something interesting about abu hurairah. Guess what he was. He loved cats and hated dogs!! The implication being that muhammad did not ban dogs in the house, but that abu hurairah lied, only because he--abu hurairah--loved cats, and hated dogs! So he, one guy told me, purposely lied in stating that muhammad had banned dogs, knowing full well that anything muhammad said would be followed.
But that doesn't end it, and this is where roy will have to come in and help me. İ was told that the name, "abu hurairah," actually means, "father of the cats."
now, if that is so, then why is it not possible that the "father of the cats" would have concocted a saying of muhammad, simply because he--abu hurairah--hated dogs. İmagine that people build an entire religious life based on such things! Really!!
İt was strongly forbidden to write down mohammads sayings during his life and after his death. İt was requested by mohammad himself.
But the people didnt keep the oath, after 238 years they started keeping records of millions of words alleged sayings of our prophet. Of course millions of them not possible to be told, they edited,re-edited,manupulated ,the picture of today muslims are blamed to this false fabricated hadiths. They even rule the country saudi arabia, egypt on this abu hurairah hadiths. He was accused of lie by prophets’ uncle, son in law and wife . He was not a friend of our prophet but a peasant surviving on his help. Some production of him:
- Cut mustache and leave beard
- Eat with right hand only
- Dont build tombs on graves
- Women dont visit graveyards
- Kill all types of dog keep the watch dog for farm (he had farm)
- Use perfume (a perfume merchant bribery)
- Hurairah’s bribed king becomes prophet himself
- Women dress in veil
Nate says:
Yesterday, for the first time in 37 years, i busted a cold one, and drank that sucker with my brother and a friend. Yet, my muslim friends would tell me, "allah forbid!!", while at the same time telling me that all the jews in israel should be driven to the sea; or i can't have a dog in my house.
İ mean, which is worse? Busting me out a brewski!!?? Or wishing that all jews die?? No, not all muslims think like that. Maybe most don't. But the ugly is so bad, amongst those that do, that it's enough to make a man drink!!
Roy says:
We muslim majority is not that crazy belive me. The main teaching is extend love to everybody who deserve it. Treat well to elders family, woman/ husband, live chaste, not fight unless been attacked, forgive much, be patient. All events are tests.
On the contrary we have no ill feelings with jews living around us. They are valuable minorities of our country. Hardliner iran chief may utter such remarks, but i think there is still many jews living in iran.
And not all of them are the same.
For drinking alcohol, quran leaves it up to one’s choise. Defy to drinking and forbids one to pray untill gets sober. This is the biggest punishment told on quran. Suggests advices manytimes give up on drinking and gambling although they both have some good in them, damage is bigger than good, so kindly discontinue. There is no forseful order.
Nate wrote:
"the truth." we got to "find" the truth. As if it's hiding somewhere. What can be more truthful than a clear blue sky; or a sunny day, or the trees in a forest, or the walk of a female?
The sky, the smell of the air after a rainstorm, the beauty of a waterfall, birds that fly up in the sky, the lakes, butterflies, leaves, trees, mountains, meadows, rivers, lakes, oceans, our food that grows in the earth, good company. So, after creating all these things that clearly demonstrate god's love for us, those things were not enough to show that love? You mean, he had to kill his son...to show that he loved us?
İ mean, you came over to my house, i opened the door, sat you down, called my son in the the living room, pulled out a gun and blew his head off; and then, jerking in shock, you went, "my god...what...what...why..."
and i answered, "i just wanted to show you how much i love you as a friend."
Roy wrote:
İt can not be put better than this. But dont sign off from religion that easily. There is some true meaning in bible that your feelings are justified as well. The lies were replaced/added in some parts by hurairahs of christians.
Nate spain wrote:
“regarding the issue of justice, i had mentioned before somewhere that that is precisely why i do not believe in the christian doctrine of atonement--because it is unjust. İt is not justice to make someone else die for my sins.
That is injustice at its height. İ cannot accept that god would kill his "son" for me. That does not make me feel good. That idea makes me feel horrible. İ was raised a catholic for 12 years--8 years in grammar school, and 4 years high school.
And that issue of jesus dying for me was horrible in my mind. İn grammar school, they had this life-sized crucifix that i had to pass each day going to class. That crucifix, at least they'd told us, had been donated by someone in rome, italy.
İt was not only life-sized, but it was life-like, and it depicted a "jesus" whose face was twisted in the deepest agony. The worst thing for me was to arrive at school late. Because i'd have to go upstairs to my first period class alone. İ'd have to pass that horrid statue by myself.when i got halfway between the first and second floors, i would put my head down and run real fast, so that i would not have to look at that statute. İ sometimes thought that jesus would start talking to me, asking me to help him.no, i see no justice in killing someone else for my sake. We would not accept such a thing in our human lives. And, i don't accept the explanation that "it is a mystery." that does not work for me.
Roy wrote:
İ admire your brave remarks nate , there are some objective thinkers around. İ strongly assure you that jesus was not crucified, we are positive on that. There have been signs everywhere, for minds who can be unbiased or preoccupied.
How three in spiritual and matter decided to come together to send somepart of three among those miniscule sized peasants and didnt guess one piece of god will be killed there by torture? Guard, soldier ect.. Has no difference than peasant comparing with god as former are made up all from human. No matter what is the position of human ~ temple guard or roman soldiers or even todays atomic powered soldiers may not possibly over power even small evidence of god let alone god himself.
Stay well, you are not alone.
Eagle,
İt would be my honor to write back to you.
You say :
“the old testament clearly indicates that adam was created in the image of god. God’s finger, his feet, and also his hand. Perhaps his soul has attributes similar to the human body? “
Roy say:
God has instructed through various verses to muslims, tha he forbids to say things about him that we are not aware of.
He had different relation of father to son than human being. He is able to create anything in any shape. He didnt created only us, but everything around. The shape is not necessarily similar to human male/female but different than any of our imagination. Our brains are not designed to enable comprehend him. As moses asked to see him, he pointed moses the mountain, which has been turn into a shambles.
You may see him as a father but if you look another perspective, the resemblance to human is baseles.
İronicaly muslim authors has been influenced by christians, resulting in false hadiths (says of mohammad saas) depicting god with legs, (god forbid ! Never)
Eagle say:
Anyway, the point is, coming back to the tomb question: could jesus have died and left his bones to be entombed? İt seems from what you said, that from the islamic view, it could be.
Roy say:
The tomb may be found, there is no real statement against it. İn fact jesus prays god in quran for three events about him, “the day i was born the day i would die and the day i would be raised. “ they are for all human being believed natural cyles. On the other hand i found the interesting tomb shrines of prophets in history. One picture relates to jesus birth point.
Why no tomb for jesus could not be. There can be a tomb but concealed for hostile attacks he experienced during lifetime. We dont know the wherabouts of prophet adam, also. Mariam, virgin mary and jesus apostles had graveyards for sure but where are the ones related jesus family? İt has been a mystery.
Please see following pictures
Raw.com.pk/gallery/v/islam/
Raw.co-m.pk/gallery/v/islamic+pictures+-+2/
Eagle- says:
So it that way we are similar to muslims. But we fully accept christ as divine and as the son of god. So in that way we differ strongly.
Roy says:
Very important for us that no partner is acceptable to the creator of universe. He says he was very angry about it:
19: 90- at it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin,
You are very kind citing from quran. İ appreciate your receptive attitude
Onewhoknows wrote:
“i know that some religions, (islamic, i think) believe the "swoon theory" is correct.”
İslamic theory says they never crucified him. He was never on the torture nor even captured by enemy. But the person seem to be as jesus to them.
Later he was on his safe place to live rest of his life, a high plain, with springs around.
Onewhoknows wrote:
“another reason that christians believe jesus died for their sins, (and you probably know this) is justice. İs it not possible that there are laws of justice, just like there are laws of gravity, thermodynamics, etc.? And perhaps we don't fully understand those laws.”
Roy says:
İn logic, islam, and all modern justice system, there is one simple rule, noone may be hold responsible or punished for others crimes.
Even someone says “i want to atone for other person” (mother to son, son to father, lover to lover) do you accept it? Why god should?
On the other hand why human must have a sin as previously from exlife this life and if had, not be able to save himself / herself by own prayer? Or if will be saved by atonement of jesus eventually, why to care to be a better person not commit sins?
Whichever perspective you look at the made-up belief by byzantene ruler and council of yours, is misleading.
Wasnt there any other way to save people from sins rather to sacrifice one piece of god? How was it done before christ (are they only comunity to be saved as majority of jews also claim as favored nation)?
“going to his death willingly” is another made-up story. Too unlogical to be devine. All science, philosophy, antropology, history, logic, nature, biolgy, cosmology, physics, theology (christianity except this incident) strives the essence of existance not extinction, natural selection, wish of living - not dieing.
On the contrary christ must have asked god to live on to save his people by preaching (he lived and won over non believers~islamic view, otherwise no christians would have been mentioned today~my opinion). Moses, and abraham has been saved by god with two miracles ( red sea divide and fire becoming serene.)
İf prophet does something “going to his death willingly” we must wish the same thing as good followers. Why don’t we –folowers of christ dare to wish some unlogical thing then?
We will all go death willingly to save others!!
Onewhoknows wrote:
And another reason why god might have allowed jesus to be crucified. Maybe this gory death was one of the best ways to get our attention. Unfortunately, when i look at some of today's movie trailers, it seems like people are interested, and even entertained, by other's suffering. The gorier, the better. İ think this is really sad, but it must be in peoples' nature. Otherwise hollywood would just make "happy" films.
Roy wrote:
This holywood is just addicted to dark films do not mean all world liked those films. They have happy films all over europe. İtalian french films perhaps.. Why should god be so complex not to be understood by common man? Does he address only to the scholars? İf so why he held the common responsible what he says and forbids? İs he so cruel to punish those from which reasons that common people has no clue to understand?
Regards
Name:onewhoknows •
Date: 03/30/07 4:19
A: Nate, sorry you grew up Catholic. I grew up Protestant and our cross was empty :-) The image I remember most vivdly of my early Christian upbringing, was a beautiful stain glass window of Christ at the door. When the sunset came through it, the crimson was spectacular! Sorry you grew up with a "spooky" Jesus image. I have been busy working at the blood bank today and helping to save lives, so I didn't get all my homework done for you.
I've got a few emails out to some of my Shroud expert acquaintences, and I am doing some reading of my own. As far as dead bodies exuding substances and gases--- they do! I know that one of the most recent hypothesis speculates that some amino molecule came off the body in gaseous form and by a Maillard reaction formed a brown substance with the sacchride (sp?) residue from soapwort on the linen. However, gas molecules bounce around too much to get such a precise image. I think it had to be radiation or light. How about controlled lightning? Yea, I know that's a little too far out of the box for you.
Name:Eagle •
Date: 03/30/07 4:25
A: Onewhoknows and Nate: Well, I don't believe in the Shroud, but if I did, it would not bother me that it was used by a person who was alive. If Christ died on the cross and was wrapped in the shroud, what would have happened if he came "back to life" while lying in the shroud? I'm guessing that as the blood again infused his veins (in some miraculous way) his wounds would have started to bleed again. So just determining if the shroud blood as pre- or post mortem would not necessarily prove that the user did or did not "die". Did they do any DNA tests on the material?
Name:onewhoknows •
Date: 03/30/07 5:03
A: Hey Nate, Are you still reading this? I've got something for you to watch. www.shroud2000.com . Go to the streaming video section, and watch Dr. Lavoie, the featured video this month. He has a lot of things to say concerning the LIFE BLOOD that was shed AT THE TIME OF DEATH and why Jewish customs treated it differently. We can see on the Shroud that whoever wrapped the man were convinced he was DEAD, or MORTE if you are French. Also he tells why the blood stains are contact related, but NOT the image and gives a cool 3D demonstration of a blood flow at the elbow. As far a Galdez, is he the Texas bacteriologist that came up with the theory of the bioplastic coat interferring with the carbon14? As for bacterial contact causing the image: Have you ever worked with bacti plates? You can touch a plate and the next day bacterial colonies will be in that fingerprint, BUT they won't be in a precise fingerprint formation and in focus like the Shroud image. Why? Because the bacteria multiply "like rabbits" and colonies can swarm and grow on top of each other and they tend to take over the whole plate. In other words, they don't create a crisp, 3 dimensional image. If bacteria were artists :-) they would paint like Picasso, not Rockwell.
Name:Nate Spain •
Date: 03/30/07 14:14
A: Ha!! Thanks, Roy. That's good information about Abu Hurairah, and about those sayings of Muhammad. It sounds similiar to Christianity, where the Gospels were written long after Jesus, but Christians cannot dare stomach the idea that certain verses might have...problems.
So, I understand why you choose to be a simple Muslim. By the way, I've read the Quran. And I know that many people tell lies against Muslims. And the sad thing is that when people hear those anti-Muslim preachers, they never follow up to study the Quran for themselves. They just mimick what they hear.
I'm a universalist now. I can't subscribe to any particular religion anymore.
I'm okay now. I just go through periods of frustration. In truth, there's something good in all religions. Even Quran says that Jews, Christians and others can go to heaven.
Life is good!!
Regards,
Nate
Name:Nate Spain •
Date: 03/30/07 15:16
A: onewhoknows, truthfully, you got me totally whipped on science stuff. And I don't keep up with Shroud stuff like I used to. I know there's probably a lot more study and papers and stuff than when I was studying it years back.
When I get a chance, I'll hope over to Barry's Shroud.com and that Shroud2000 site you recommended, and see what's new. I must tell you, though, that I have very deep suspicions about the conclusions of scientists who are Christians who study the Shroud.
Barry, as you know, is an orthodox Jew. He's not ultra-orthodox.
Anyway, he seems convinced that the scientists are fair. I, though, have doubts, especially after reading D'Muhala's SERMON about the Shroud.
Really, I personally could not scientifically defend the idea that the Man of the Shroud survived. But, I would certainly like to know what they think of Dr. Hirt's analysis, which he did based on pure observation. His analysis seems very logical, as he talked about the angels that the blood stains made, for instance, with certain parts of the body, indicating heart activity, etc.
Do get hold of, Christ Did Not Perish on the Cross, if you can find it. Read Dr. Hirt's theory. If I had more time, believe me I would read the latest with Sherlock Holmes scrutiny. I have a gift for detective work, once I can at least get a basic understanding.
The one problem with the Shroud business is that everytime a scientist "debunks" one aspect of another scientists study, some other scientist comes back to refute. So, the layman has no idea whose science is true.
In fact, you just caused me to remember something, but I have to look it up. Some guy (was it last year?), I heard, who died had totally destroyed the so-called carbon-dating "proof," and I heard that his study was irrefutable. Maybe you know who I'm talking about.
The truth is, they'll be debating about that cloth forever. And I think that it would be naieve to believe that some of those scientists don't have religious agendas.
It would have been good if Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu and other scientists could have been asked to study the Shroud. That did not happen. The vast majority of the scientists are Christians--church-going Christians.
That doesn't mean that their conclusions are automatically tainted. But, if Christians have decided to place their entire faith on proving that Shroud to be true (and some do), then there is a LOT at stake--2000 years of doctrine. So, it would not be suprising if those Christian scientists would begin their study of the Shroud with Christian, doctrinal assumptions, thus tainting both their study of the Shroud, and their conclusions.
Are they REALLY studying it in a detached manner? Or, are they studying it with the conscious or subconscious idea of proving the truth of Christian doctrine? If the latter, then might this not cause them to draw wrong conclusions?
Regarding the bacteria colonies, I don't know about that at all. But you are tempting me to put on my Sherlock Holmes hat to see what I can come up with. :-)
For instance: Okay, the bacteria colonies that you talk about, that are allowed to grow on plates in a lab, is one thing. But what were the **conditions** inside that open and airy tomb?
Might there have been processes occuring that could have allowed the bacteria [or whatever] to grow for a time, but then that process become arrested for some reason?
Suppose that part of the 100 pounds of herbs [see Bible] that Nicodemus brought to the tomb were used to help heal Jesus wounds, but another part of those herbs were used to SMOKE the tomb.
Even the smoke from burnt herbs can have a strong healing effect. Remember that the stone was rolled over the entrance? Well, suppose Nicodemus and Joseph, in a corner of the tomb, allowed some of those herbs to burn, so that the smoke from the tomb was allowed to fill the inside of the tomb, where Jesus lay on a slab.
Then, suppose Joseph and Nicodemus left the tomb, and then rolled the rock over the entrance in order to keep the smoke inside. How would that effect the growth of the bacteria? Like I said, I'm no scientists. But doesn't backteria need a certain amount of oxygen to survive?
In the case of Jesus, if smoke filled the tomb, there probably still would be enough air for him to breath and not choke to death--maybe. Or maybe what I'm saying is just crock.
But, we're talking about an even that happen 2000 years ago, and we're trying to apply modern science on a relic that, so far, has not been definitively dated (some claiming it's 2000 years old, others claiming it's from the Middle Ages).
But, if the Shroud is the Shroud of Jesus, then, again, it is simply a fact that nobody knows what went on in that tomb, if anything. It raises my eyebrow that Nicodemus, according to the Bible, came to that tomb with 100 pounds of herbs. I mean, 100 pounds!!??
What did he need all those herbs for? I would like to know if Jewish burial practices included the application of so many herbs. You're a Christian. So, you are bound to believe that verse in the Bible [aren't you?] that says that Nicodemus took 100 pounds of herbs to the tomb.
There are other issues:
"And Pilate marvelled that he were already dead." (The Bible)
Why did Pilate "marvel" that Jesus were "already dead," when the Centurion gave his report to Pilate? Why was Pilate SURPRISED that Jesus was ALREADY dead.
Let's re-word Pilate's statement: "But...how could he be dead this soon?"
Then, again, there are those verses that claim that Jesus, after 3 days, was walking around, assuring his followers that he was alive ["Feel me and see that I am flesh and bones..."]
The scientist who put forth the idea that a "burst of energy" caused the image on the Shroud will themselves admit that that is pure speculation. They can't prove it. So, this means that the Biblical verse that says that Jesus told his disciples to FEEL him shows clearly that he was alive--physically alive. I know of no reason to assume that he rose from the dead. That idea is Christian doctrine. There is no proof of it.
And that is why the Shroud is important to some Christians: They HAVE to make the attempt to prove that the image was made by some kind of burst of energy, because that would support the artistic depictions of Jesus' alleged resurrection. And the Shroud, at the moment, is literally the ONLY possible proof of the "resurrection" of Jesus.
The Puffer fish is a fish that is found in the Mediterranian Sea and other waters around the world. It contains a substance called tetradotoxin. When rubbed into the skin, it can create a state of suspended animation--a coma-like state. This is the substances that so-called witchdoctors in Haiti us to induce the coma-like state in "zombies." A Canadian scientist exposed this years ago.
Did Jesus go into a coma? What was really in that sponge, or whatever it was, that the Centurion held up for Jesus to suck, or drink? Was it Pilate who chose the Centurion who oversaw the crucifixion? Was he ordered to give something to Jesus that would induce a coma?
Sound far fetched? Remember, Pilate felt that Jesus was innocent. Also, Pilate's wife had had a dream that frightened her, and she told Pilate to stay out of the matter.
Could Pilate have been part of a scheme to help save Jesus from death? Why did Pilate set the crucifixion to be held at a time that would FORCE the Jews to take Jesus' body down?
The Torah said, "He that is hanged is accurrsed of God." Because of that Torah verse, it was against Jewish religious law to allow a crucified person to hang on the cross during the Shabat (Sabbath).
Jesus was only on the cross a few hours--NOT enough time to die as a result of crucifixion, crucifixion being a form of death that took DAYS, not a few hours. The Jews were forced to take Jesus' body down after a few hours, in order to prevent his "accurssed" body to be hanging on the cross at the approach of Shabat.
In the Phillipines, they crucify people every year, as part of fanatic [as I see it] ceremonies, around Easter, to commemorate the crucifixion of Jesus. It is a very sterile event--alcohol and other healing medicines readily availble, and it's a public display.
But! In the backwoods areas of the Phillipines, the more fanatical ones DO IT RIGHT! When the authorities finally find these people, they take the body down after it has been hanging FOR DAYS. Then they take the victim to a hospital, have him administered to; and then, after he is sufficiently healed, they charge him with a misdemeaner crime.
This happens very rarely. I had an article on it many years ago. I have tried like mad to find it on the web, but to no avail. But that article appeared in a magazine many years ago.
The point is that there is too much that is unknown. I predict, though, that some very definite information about the historical Jesus will surface one day. It will either come from Jerusalem, the Vatican itself, or Kashmir. Gut feeling, that's all.
The Shroud stuff is interesting. But, I doubt that total agreement on the science will ever happen.
Regards,
Nate
Name:Nate Spain •
Date: 03/30/07 15:40
A: Here's a very interesting article. One sentence says,
"The process then repeats. Done properly, it can take days for a crucifixion victim to die."
A: In the previous post, please remove the hyphen in the world library, and then that URL will work.
Name:Perceptions •
Date: 03/31/07 3:24
A: Great postings here, no doubt, the more I read the more do i enjoy the directions PERCEPTIONS can fly!
Roy!
I apologize for keeping you awaited for what I wrote about the Aya of the Holy Quran, you mentioned, earlier.
AL-QURAN 23 :50
Khalifa
We made the son of Mary and his mother a sign, and we gave them refuge on a mesa with food and drink.
Pickthall
And We made the son of Mary and his mother a portent, and We gave them refuge on a height, a place of flocks and watersprings.
Shakir
And We made the son of Marium and his mother a sign, and We gave them a shelter on a lofty ground having meadows and springs.
Yousaf Ali
And We made the son of Mary and his mother as a Sign: We gave them both shelter on high ground, affording rest and security and furnished with springs.
........................-...................
Thi-s- Ayat is from the Chapter "the Prophets', that discuss the established state of many differenrtProphets of past, I mean ,it's not about their Childhood stories.
The WAY , the very Aya got it's position therein, justifies, that the time of REFUGE was the time when prophet Jesus, was given a peaceful opportunity to deliver his message to the people,
Th sequence, "Jesus , the son of Mary, and his Mother", obviously support the concept of an ADULT JESUS ALONG WITH HIS MOTHR (most probably after the event of crucifixion)....and not MARY WITH HER UNBORN CHILD,...finding a REFUGE!!! (at the time earller, when Mary was being blamed)
I , myself, noticed it quite recently!
( I've another thing that I been pondering upon, from Quran, provided you'll be interested!)
Name:roy •
Date: 03/31/07 14:12
A: Perceptions,
Thanks I am interested further , please go ahead.
Name:Nate Spain •
Date: 03/31/07 15:31
A: I'd like to go back to the original question of this thread. I want to re-emphasize that I disagree with Roy's assessment that **all** Muslims agree on what happened to Jesus. I also want to show that Muslim **historians** had no problem recording the idea that Yuz Asaf (the man buried in the Roza Bal) might have been Jesus.
First, regarding the difference (right quick). There is the Substitution theory. Some Muslims believe that Jesus was replaced by someone else on the cross. This parallels a Gnostic teaching.
Another interpretation of Qur'anic verses, as Roy has pointed out, is that Jesus was never crucified period. Another interpretation is that Jesus was bodily taken up to heaven, **in the flesh.** Another belief, held by the Ahmadiyyas, is that Jesus **was** crucified, but, like other crucifixion victims who were taken down after only being on the cross for a few hours, he survived the crucifixion.
Again the above shows clearly that there does NOT exist unanimity of opinion within the Muslim world about what happened to Jesus. Although they may offer similiar **translations** of the Qur'an, they DO NOT offer the same understanding of what those translations mean. They have different understanding of what happened to Jesus.
Now, I would like to mention at least one Muslim historian that had no problem recording, in his book, the fact that Jesus and Yuz Asaf, the man buried in the Roza Bal, are probably the same person:
A Muslim named Mullah Nadri, In the year 1420 , compiled the first full record of the history of Kashmir in a book named "Tahrik-i-Kashmir" (History of Kashmir). Here is what he said:
"During this time Hazrat Yuz Asaf having come from Bait-ul Muqaddas [the Holy Land] to this holy valley proclaimed his prophethood. He devoted himself, day and night, in [prayers to] God, and having attained the heights of piety and virtue, he declared himself to be a Messenger [of God] for the people of Kashmir.
"He invited people [to his teaching]. Because the people of the valley had faith in this Prophet, Raja Gopadatta referred the objection of Hindus to him [for decision]. It was because of this Prophet’s orders that Sulaiman, whom Hindus called Sandeman, completed [the repairs of] the dome. [The year was] Fifty and four.
"Further, on one of the stones of the stairs he [Sulaiman] inscribed: ‘In these times Yuz Asaf proclaimed his prophethood,’ and on the other stone of the stairs he also inscribed that he [Yuz Asaf] was Yusu, Prophet of the Children of Israel.
"I have seen in a book of Hindus that this prophet was really Hazrat Isa [Jesus], the Spirit of God, on whom be peace [and salutations] and had also assumed the name of Yuz Asaf. The real knowledge is with God. He spent his life in this [valley].
"After his departure [his death] he was laid to rest in Mohalla Anzmarah. It is also said that lights of prophethood used to emanate from the tomb of this Prophet. Raja Gopadatta having ruled for sixty years and two months, [then] died…" (Tarikh-i-Kashmir, p. 69)
Now, the above is important. This Muslim historian expressed NO disgust, or surprise; he did not write a disclaimer, such as, "Of course, this cannot be so, because according to Islam, Jesus was taken up." He did not do that. He did what an historian should: recorded what he came across in the traditions of Kashmir.
Note also that he said that he had read in a Hindu book, probably the Bhavishya Mahapurana (which mentions Jesus in Kashmir), that Yuz Asaf was Isa. Note also that he said that Yuz Asaf was a Prophet who came from The Holy Land, i.e., Palestine (Canaan, Israel). The only Prophet in "Israel" 2000 years ago was Isa.
Hassnain says that year 54 is a measure of time taken from a calender used there in Kashmir, at one time, that is based on something he called the Laukika Era. Laukika Year 1, he says, is 3076 BC. So, 54, he thinks, would be 78 A.D (see page 202-203, A Search for the Historical Jesus).
Again, the point here is that some Muslim historians had no problem acknowledging the possibility that Yuz Asaf was Jesus. They did not scream and holler; they did not suggest anything about Muslims having a certain unified view.
Now, another book, written by a Muslim, is entitled Tarikh-i-Kabir Kashmir, written by Haji Mohiuddin and published at the Suraj Prakash Press in Amritsar, Punjab in 1902. On page 34 of that book, he says,
"Syed Nasirruddin Khanyari is much revered for spending his life in piety and prayers. He was buried in the famous shrine known as the Roza Bal tomb. His grave is located towards the south of the holy grave of a Prophet. As such, the shrine is known as the Site of the Prophet.
"Khawaja Azam Didmari writes that in the past a Prince, who absorbed himself in prayers and piety attained the station of a Messenger [of God] and was sent to this land for guidance of the people. His name was Yuzu-Asaph. After his death, he was buried here in Mohala Anzmar near Khanyar.
"Mulla Ahmad in his Asar-ul-Ikhyar has quoted that Sultan Zain-ul-Abidin deputed Syed Abdullah Bahaiqi as an Ambassador to Egypt and the Pharoah of Egypt deputed Yuzu-Asaph, who was a progeny of Moses, as his ambassador. The Shias believe that Yuzu-Asaph descended from Hazrat Imam Jafar-i-Sadiq.
"However, in an Arabic manuscript, it is related that the Prince came from Sholapit to Kashmir as a traveler and is buried in Anzmar, Khanyar, Srinagar. But more older information is available that a sweet smell used to come from one of the holes of the sarcophagus. A lady who desecrated the tomb became mad.
"Others believe that it is the tomb of a great Prophet who is no other than Hazrat Isa [Jesus]--the Spirit of God."
Now, for those at this forum who might now know, "Isa" is the name used for Jesus in both Hindu and Islamic literature, including the Qur'an. So, what we see above is that two Islamic historians, one from the year 1420, and the other 1902.
The fact that that Tarikh [history] was written in 1420, demonstrates that this theory was not invented at some later time. The belief that Yuz Asaf was Jesus Christ existed in Kashmir for almost 2000 years.
Muslims would have a problem accepting this tradition, because it defies their DOCTRINES. They think that the Qur'an is absolutely clear on what happened to Jesus. That is not so. If the Qur'an was that clear, then there would not exist differences of opinion, such as that held by the Ahmadiyyas, or that held by those who believe in the Substitution Theory.
So, since such differences of opinion exist, there is nothing wrong whatsoever for a Muslim to PURSUE the theory of Jesus in Kashmir. It's detective work.
Regards,
Nate Spain
Name:Perceptions •
Date: 03/31/07 21:03
A: .....One quick correction ,first!
Owing to another reference in my mind I wrote the chapter's name, WRONG,...it's "THE BELIEVERS"! (Al mo'minoon)
I'll be back!
Name:Perceptions •
Date: 04/01/07 15:10
A: Hi,
(Nate, Thanks again for you DETECTIVE"S REPORT! (smile)
I appreciate it, Imeaning looking throught the history. Apart from this Ahmadiyyah group, there had been many scholars who were used to believe in jesus's death, until the present time reached and Muslim eye's are stuck to their sky-bound VISION, just like other followers of the MYTHS of past.
That's why I got interested in WHAT MUSLIMS of 14 centuries ago, used to believe in. Precisely what is THE MESSEGE IN QURAN, ITSELF!)
This- is THE ONLY PLACE in Quran which is represented in favour of THE NEWS OF JESUS"S SECOND COMING IN THE WORLD.
"4.157": And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.
"4.158": Nay! Allah took him up to Himself; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.
"4.159": And there is not one of the followers of the Book but most certainly believes in this before his death, and on the day of resurrection he (Isa) shall be a witness against them.
(This is etext.virginia.edu , Kindly go ahead and explore the other authentic translations, as I felt I should keep mypost tof resonable length.)
1 st. Aya tells us about the DOUBT about jesus's DEATH ON CROSS, amongst JEWS, more precisely.
2 nd. Aya is a SENSATIVE PLACE where, the word RA'FA is interpreted as "taken up the sky" , although the very word is NOT used in that meaning anywhere else in Quran, and the SKY was not mentioned ,altogether.(This is another issue, Iavoid it here as there are many OTHER places in Quran, CONFIRMING that Jesus has did like all the rest of the Prophets.)
#rd. Aya is of the EXTREME IMPORTANCE, in my opinion, as it RECTIFIES the issue raised in 2nd. Aya, too.
Please read the Arabic , first!
4:159 Wa Im-min Ahlal Kitaabi Illa la yo’minu BIHI qabla motihiwa yomul qiaamati ya kunu alaihim Shaheed.
"BIHI", suits the word "THIS" - THE DOUBTED ISSUE OF JESUS"S DEATH ON CROSS
and NOT "HIM" -JESUS
I mean it's being taken as if there will be no one left who will not BELIEVE IN HIM J(ESUS), before his death.
This is MEANINGLESS in sense, beacuse:
a- Why should every one MUST BELIEVe in him, now , when he was rejected in his TIME,?
b- Why should he be coming bodily, when Quran came after him to tell people that he was the Prophet of Allah?
c- Aya still , is, insufficient to tell , HE WILL DESCEND FROM THE SKY.
4- The issue being discussed, Iman referring to the CONTEXT, id the DOUBT about his DEATH ON CROSS, and NOT himself. (What's the use of CLARIFYING it when he he has been proven the CURSED ONE ,(God Fobidden), for past 20 centuries, having been crucified for the purpose?)
5- And above all, WHY would he be WITNESSING AGAINST THEM, when everyone will finally believe in him?
This also indicates that he WILL BE WITNESSING ON THE JUDGEMENT DAY ,...AND NOT BEFORE THAT DAY,....AS HE WOULD NEVER CoME BACK BEFORE IT, IN THE WORLD!!!!!!
Thanks!
Name:Perceptions •
Date: 04/01/07 15:20
A: Sorry for many mistakes, I did, I hope you'll get the SENSE, in it, anyway.
Especially concerned about the points a, b, c, I wrote , 4, 5, instead of d, and e...
Name:onewhoknows •
Date: 04/02/07 4:53
A: Eagle, Nate and others, I will try to answer a couple questions that you asked. The scientist that recently died was Ray Rogers of Los Alamos Lab and head chemist of the STURP project in '78. Marino and Bedford of Columbus, OH wrote a paper on an "invisible mend" from the middle ages. They said that the carbon 14 sample was taken from this EXPERTLY repaired edge of the Shroud. Rogers, who could be a surly old coot, (I say that with affection) thought that it was another weird hypothesis from the lunatic fringe, and he was actually angry and disgusted about it. He said that he could prove this theory to be false with practically no effort. He had samples of the Shroud from '78 and I think some of the Raes sample that was adjacent to it.
Instead of proving them wrong he proved that the carbon 14 sample WAS NOT like the rest of the Shroud, because it contained: cotton, dye, end to end thread splicing, and a difference in vanillin (sp?) Actually there were more chemical differences, but you would have to read his paper. Barrie should have it on www.shroud.com. I ordered a DVD of Schwortz's final interviews with Rogers on this subject. Rogers didn't often give interviews or sell books. He seemed to be a no nonsense kind of guy.
A short note on bacteria.... some are aerobic (need oxygen) and some are anaerobic. There was a theory that perhaps a bioplastic film of bacteria and fungus caused the inaccuracy of the radiocarbon dating, but Rogers said, from the beginning, that this carbon would not be enough to skew the test that much.
Not all sindonologist are Christians, and even if they are, I believe most of them have been unbiased in their testing. One of the Arizona lab guys who came up with the approx. 1325 A.D. dating, was a devout Catholic. On the other hand, Avinoam Danin who wrote on the flora of the Shroud, is Jewish and works as a professor at the Hebrew Univ. in Jerusalem. He confirmed that the most prevalent pollen on the Shroud was Gundelia tournifortii (sp?) a THORN plant that grows near Jerusalem. It is also on the Sudarium, an ancient, bloody, face cloth, that has been in Spain since about 700 A.D.
Eagle, you asked about the DNA. Someone in Texas (Texas Univ?) did do some DNA testing, however, they did not have the Vatican's approval so they do not recognize the results. The results, to the best of my remembrance was the DNA was from a male, I believe it pointed to possible middle east origins, and the blood type was AB. AB is the rarest ABO type, and it is also found on the Sudarium. It would be easy to check this out for yourself on www.shroudstory.com or www.shroudofturin4journalists.com. (They are the most user friendly and entertaining. But www.shroud.com is more for scientist's and research papers, and might seem too much in depth for just an overview.
Name:Nate Spain •
Date: 04/02/07 12:32
A: "Instead of proving them wrong he proved that the carbon 14 sample WAS NOT like the rest of the Shroud, because it contained: cotton, dye, end to end thread splicing, and a difference in vanillin (sp?) "
Long before Rogers' exposed that, Holger Kersten, in his book, the Jesus Conspiracy, strongly stated the the Shroud samples had been purposely switched, and that what was dated was a part of the Shroud that had been re-woven.
Kersten attributed this to a conspiracy, but his theory about a conspiracy was debunked by Ian Smith. Yet, his suspicions about the Shroud samples were on target.
It is very interesting what you say about the bacteria, as my detective nose was wondering precisely that: are there bacteria that need more oxygen that other kinds of bacteria. Your answer is, obviously, yes.
I readily admit that we often are ruled by our desires and belief systems, rather than by facts. I admit that my personal belief, in part based on my "hunches" that I've developed over the years, is that if that Shroud was layed over the person of Jesus, then what it **really** proves is that the body was alive. This is my personal belief for which I have no scientific proof.
There is no scientific proof for the existence of Jesus. No such proof exists.
Well, thanks for the run down. I am sorry that I cannot engage you properly in this Shroud study, as I dropped out of it years ago and am spending most of my waking ours trying to recover certain bad moves in life [economically].
I still have my doubts about this Shroud business. Heller mentioned that the Man of the Shroud was dead, but did not mention how he could see that. It always looks to me as if people are **assuming** that he was dead, but not offering any proof.
But, I have not read all the scientific literature. Barry's really cool, by the way. I had befriended him and we used to talk a bit on the phone, but sometimes not about Shroud stuff.
I hope someone else here will be able to engage you in this.
Name:Nate Spain •
Date: 04/02/07 14:00
A: Incidentally, I do believe that there is an "agreement," somewhere, about controlling information on the science of the Shroud, Barry had assurred me, in the past, that everything was on the up and up.
Weeeeel, I just don't believe that. I suspect that **somebody,** in the Vatican, knows, or at least suspects, that the markings on the Shroud prove that the Man of the Shroud was alive. I think that the Church was **not** happy with Rogers. I will be surprised if the Church allows a new carbon dating from a **correct** sample of the Shroud.
It would prefer that the Shroud be found as a fake. Berna, and later, Kersten, are the two people in Shroud history who have declared that the Man of the Shroud was alive.
The early actions of the Church in first allowing 10 labs to study samples, but then, later, changing its mind and allowing on 3 **hand-picked** labs to study, was the first sign that something was funky.
I think that, somehow, the Church purposely arranged that re-woven portions of the Shroud be carbon dated. Holger Kersten even theorized precisely when this happened, in a room where the Shroud samples were placed in a box, I think, but no reporters or anyone else was allowed to go into that room. Ian Wilson pretty much debunked Holger's theory.
Yet it is very interesting that Holger's theory that the wrong parts of the Shroud had been has now been proven to be true by Rogers, before his death. So, could Holger be right about his switch theory, despite Wilson's "debunking?"
When Holger first put forth his theory that re-woven parts of the Shroud had been carbon dated, he was thrashed. But now we know that he was right. And he was doing pure detective work, not hard science.
The detective part of this, not just the science alone, is VERY important. Read Holger's book, The Jesus Conspiracy.
Name:sam •
Date: 04/02/07 14:59
A: Nate spain, you said:
"I'd like to go back to the original question of this thread. I want to re-emphasize that I disagree with Roy's assessment that **all** Muslims agree on what happened to Jesus. I also want to show that Muslim **historians** had no problem recording the idea that Yuz Asaf (the man buried in the Roza Bal) might have been Jesus."
-----------------------------------
If you agree or disagree with Roy, or agree or disagree with the Muslim, and if the christians and the muslims and the Jews do not agree with each other, all that because you & they are leaving the soul and the main purpose of the religion that came in messages from God by His messengers Moses, Jesus and Muhammad and the laws that came with those messages.
Catholic, protestant, mormon, etc.they represent themselves only, and they are not the christian faith, because the faith comes from the teaching which came from the messenger Jesus and His words, most of it is writen in the gospels.
Ahmadiya, alawite, sunni or shiite etc., they represent themselves and not the Islam faith. Only the Quran, the message from God represents the faith of Islam.
We cannot judge the Christian or the muslim faiths by what is written by ordinary people those who been created by people as the saints or imam or whatsoever. That is wrong.
People who follow Paul, Peter, Simon etc., are not the real chritians, because the christian suppose to follow only Jesus's teaching, and follow the "CHRIST" and not the others .
Also, the people who follow Muhammad, Ali, Ahmad and Imams etc., those are not the real muslims, because the muslims suppose to follow the teaching of God only, "the Quran" the word of God, and Muhammad is just a messenger like Jesus and Mose and Abraham before Him.
"But if they turn away, THEN WE HAVE NOT SENT YOU , O MUHAMMAD, OVER THEM AS A GUARDIAN; UPON YOU IS ONLY THE DUTY OF NOTIFICATION..." Q-42:48
If I wanted to know and understand the christian faith I do not go to find the truth about it in the the personal letters of Paul or in the millions of books which been written in the past 2000 years by whom they thought that they know the truth, but I should go direct to the main and the original source and that is the words of Jesus Himself. so, If Jesus said: "THE LORD "OUR" (that means His &theirs) GOD IS ONE LORD", "THE ONLY TRUE GOD", "no one is good EXCEPT GOD "ALONE".
Then after I read this, "the trinity. There is only one God.
But there is the father, the son (Jesus), and the holy spirit.
JESUS CHRIST IS TRULY GOD AND TRULY MAN."
Jesus Said , "OUR GOD - THE ONE AND ONLY GOD" and they say "JESUS IS GOD". Then who we should believe? Jesus or the Romans?, was Jesus not telling the truth?. Do the Romans & the popes knows God and Jesus more than Jesus Himself???.
What the popes and bishops "said" or what the khalifa or imam "said", those are only their words and their work and their thoughts, and has nothing to do with the faith.
The sects (groups) in all religions created their own religions and teaching, (catholic, protestant, sunni, shiite), the y cannot be trusted, because they went too far from the teaching of Jesus and the Quran, and anyone who understand logic will find this truth.
As for "what happened to Jesus" question, I will say, to find the truth i should say that we should go back to the gospels (words of Jesus) and to the Quran, leaving the others guesses behind.
We know that Jesus has the ability to disguise Himself and the ability to disappear even from closed room, and the ability to do miracles, for that I believe He did His last miracle when disappeared and then appeared after three days then to dissapear with His family, so no one knows what happen to Him at that time. and after six centuries the Quran brought us His story:
"And for saying, "indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of God." And they did not kill Him, nor did they crucify Him; but another was made to resemble Him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill Him, for certain."
Nothing is clear in the gospels about Jesus disappearance, and their saying that Jesus was lifet up and sat on the right hand of God cannot be accepted logically, and they are in doubt and all the stories about Him just assumption, and the discovery of "THE LOST TOMB OF JESUS", brought more doubt, and also brought mor assumption. and that makes the Quran saying is more acceptable, because the facts is Jesus is able to do miracles and He was supported by God,
"I CAN DO NOTHING ON MY OWN INITIATIVE" prove that.
Name:sam •
Date: 04/02/07 15:19
A: Dear, Nate Spain.
In regards to the "SHROUD" you asked: "I hope someone else here will be able to engage you in this."
The shroud of Torin is one of many HOAX , that the churches helped people to accept. And when people ingage in debating a hoax, then they are westing their time.
I wonder how can a shroud that been found a hoax still sitting guarde in the cathedral of Torin, and to be visited by people and by popes & bishops
Please try to find better things to talk about.
Name:Nate Spain •
Date: 04/02/07 16:26
A: Sam, if you've covered any of the history of the Santa Sindone (Holy Shroud), you'd know that hundreds and hundreds of man-hours have been expended studying the tomb. The very most sophisticated equipment from NASA, Jet Propulsion Laboratories, Sandia Labs and other institutions were used, by scientists, to study every square centimeter of the Shroud.
The studies are very intense, and the scientists recorded the findings of their studies in minute detail in the form of reports that they provided to their peers, as well as to the public in some cases. This is common knowledge amongst those "Sindonologists," that is, people who study the Santa Sindone.
No, my point is this: If you find it easy to dismiss the Shroud as a hoax, even though Ray Rogers has (as his peers agree) clearly demonstrated that the carbon dating was flawed due to the fact that samples taken from the Shroud were re-woven samples; despite the fact that Max Frei's (and, since him, others) analysis of pollen on the Shroud traced the pollen to the Middle East, as well as tons other issues, then be my guess.
But, amongst the scientists, the verdict is still out
Regards,
Nate
Name:sam •
Date: 04/03/07 14:07
A: Nate Spain,
About the shroud of Turin:
Many believers have hypothesized the image on the shroud to be produced by a side effect of the Resurrection of Jesus. This has been countered by scientists who assert that blood does not flow from a dead body. The quantity of blood on the cloth could not have been simply imprinted upon the cloth after his body was removed from the crucifix.
Jewish burial rules meant that dead bodies were washed before being wrapped up. (THAT IS TRUE)
Some religious speculators have asserted that the shroud collapsed through the glorified body of Jesus. Supporters of this theory point to certain X-ray-like impressions of the teeth and the finger bones. (THERE IS DOUBT)
Others suggest that radiation caused by the miraculous event may have burned the image into the cloth. (IT IS SUGGESTED, BUT CANNOT BE PROVED)
One point against the veracity of the shroud is that it was Jewish custom to separately wrap the head. (THAT IS TRUE)
The New Testament accounts mention a separate hood that covered Jesus' head. It is not clear if this hood was placed on Jesus, as the disciples found the hood placed apart from the other burial clothes. (BUT BOTH, THE HOOD AND OTHER BURIAL CLOTHES WERE FOUND IN THE SAME PLACE, AND THAT PROVE THEY BEEN USED, AND FOUND THEM APART AFTER THE BODY WAS REMOVED DO NOT PROVE ANYTHING)
If the accounts are accurate then it suggests the falsehood of the shroud. (THAT IS TRUE)
The Electron Optics Group of McCrone Associates published the results of these studies in five articles in peer-reviewed journals: Microscope 1980, 28, 105, 115; 1981, 29, 19; Wiener Berichte uber Naturwissenschaft in der Kunst 1987/1988, 4/5, 50 and Acc. Chem. Res. 1990, 23, 77-83. STURP,
upon learning of his findings, confiscated McCrone's samples and brought in other scientists to replace him. (THAT IS WRONG, BECAUSE THEY DID ACCEPT HIM AND TRUSTED HIM TO START THE WORK, AND THE CHURCH SHOULD ACCEPT THE RESULTS, WHATEVER IT COMES)
In McCrone's words, he was "drummed out" of STURP, and continued to defend the analysis he had performed, becoming a prominent proponent of the position that the Shroud is a forgery. (CONFISCATING THE SAMPLES PROVES THAT THE CHURCH WILL NOT ACCEPT THE FACT AND THE TRUTH IF IT IS NOT SUITED THEIR PURPOSE. THAT IS VERY WRONG)
[edit] Radiocarbon dating
In 1988, the Holy See agreed to permit six centers to independently perform radiocarbon dating on portions of a swatch taken from a corner of the shroud, but at the last minute they changed their minds and only permitted three research centers to independently perform radiocarbon dating. All three, Oxford University, the University of Arizona, and the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology agreed with a dating in the 13th to 14th centuries (1260-1390), although recently published chemical analysis (see below) indicates that the sample used was invalid (people think that the material used may have come from one of the patches used to repair it from fire in 1532 - all the patches were removed during a restoration in June 2002). The scientific community had asked the Holy See to authorize more samples, including from the image-bearing part of the shroud, but this request was refused.
(THE CHURCH ALWAYS "REFUSE", THEY WILL NEVER ACCEPT THE TRUTH !!!. THE SHROUD OF TURIN, THE MANY DISCOVERED GOSPELS, AND THE DISCOVERY OF THE TOMB OF JESUS AND EVERYTHING ELSE, AND ALL THE SCIENTIFIC WORK THAT BEEN DONE USING THE MOST SOPHISTICATED TOOL OF THE 21ST CENTURY ARE REFUSED BY THE CHURCH !!!. THE CHURCH ALWAYS TRY TO HIDE THE TRUTH, AND THAT IS A FACT).
As of 2004, no other scientists have confirmed McCrone's results with independent experiments, simply because the Vatican refuses to co-operate.
Name:Nate Spain •
Date: 04/03/07 16:19
A: Sam, I am fully aware of all that. I met McCrone, with my daughter, at his Chicago office near IIT (Illinois Institute of Technology) many years ago. But, Sam, all that you have said can be countered by those who support the Shroud as being authentic.
I certainly DO NOT believe that the image was made by some burst of light from the body. But, Sam, Dr. Heller proved conclusively that McCrone was totally in error. Heller performed a bunch of tests, all of which proved that the stains on the Shroud are bloodstains. Read Heller's book, which contains his analysis.
There is no reason for anyone to take McCrone's word over Heller's, or perhaps vice versa. This isn't as easy as you think. Those who **want** to believe it's a fake will naturally side with the scientists who believe it's a fake. Those who believe it's genuine will side with the scientists who believe it's genuine.
You can't so easily dismiss it. Rogers (now deceased) proved that re-woven parts of the Shroud were carbon dated, not the Shroud itself. And nobody's disputing that. So, the carbon dating has to be re-done, this time using samples from the original cloth, not re-woven parts.
Heller's gedankenexperiment blows a hole in the idea that the Shroud is fake. I can reproduce that here, if I have time.
I'm not Christian. But, I know that it ain't so easy as you think to dismiss the Shroud. McCrone had his reputation to hold up. He **had** to hold fast to his theory, lest his previous (and future) clients get nervous.
He was (or is, if he's still alive) an expert on art forgeries. So, if he backs down, even in the face of science that proved him wrong, his backing down will call into question ALL of the previous work he did for clients that hired him to determine if an artistic piece was a forgery. He'll stick to that paint theory until he dies, because his reputation is at stake.
But Dr. Heller blew McCrone out of the water.
Regards,
Nate
Name:Perceptions •
Date: 04/03/07 18:21
A: Sam,
"And for saying, "indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of God." And they did not kill Him, nor did they crucify Him; but another was made to resemble Him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill Him, for certain."
"...BUT ANOTHER WAS MADE TO RESEMBLE HIM TO THEM.."
Regarding the ABOVE , TRANSLATED portion
........... they were made to think that they did. KHALIFA
...........but it appeared so unto them; PICTHALL
............but it appeared to them so (like Isa) SHAKIR
...........they were made to think that they did SHER ALI
..........but so it was made to appear to them,YUSUF ALI
.............................
YOURS is just of a kind, that is ONLY supporting the MYTHICAL STORY ABOUT JESUS CRUCIFIXION, ......and is NOT the actaul TRANSLATION OF THEARABIC.......
WAL KIN SHUBBEHA LAKUM
IT"S MISLEADING!
Nothing is clear in the gospels about Jesus disappearance, and their saying that Jesus was lifet up and sat on the right hand of God cannot be accepted logically, and they are in doubt and all the stories about Him just assumption, and the discovery of "THE LOST TOMB OF JESUS", brought more doubt, and also brought mor assumption. and that makes the Quran saying is more acceptable, because the facts is Jesus is able to do miracles and He was supported by God,
IF YOU ATTRIBUTE EVERY SINGLE THING WITH JESUS IN IT'S LITERARY SENSE ,FROM HIS MIRACULOUS BIRTH TO HIS END THEN
HE WAS NOT A HUMAN!!!!
Name:Perceptions •
Date: 04/03/07 18:38
A: I forgot, there is not a SINGLE HADITH in support of that MYTH, interestingly, though it MUST have been an important ISSUE for Muslims of 14 centuries ago.
Did they never BOTHER to CONFIRM it, with Muhammad pbuh???
(ARABIC : corrections: WALAKIN SHUBBIHA LAKUM...)
Name:roy •
Date: 04/03/07 19:44
A: Nate,
Roy wrote: It must be continuing to exude the sweet smell today.
Quran is not certain what happened to Jesus after attemted crucifixion.
I was interested in what you wrote. It is true that many holy sites and prophets touched places carry the sweet smell. You may experience it with Prophet Mohammad (sas) it is so common among believers that they mention about this fact without astonishment. I am one of them experienced, and facinated. Yet this does not prove that the tomb belongs to Jesus. He may or may not be some other prophet or we dont know the identiy. I can believe from what you wrote:
“However, in an Arabic manuscript, it is related that the Prince came from Sholapit to Kashmir as a traveler and is buried in Anzmar, Khanyar, Srinagar. But more older information is available that a sweet smell used to come from one of the holes of the sarcophagus. “
You may see other prophets tombs from links below:
We- know from Quran that there will be continuous debate and doubt about Jesus, whether they crucifixed him or not between christians.
34- Such (was) Jesus the son Of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.
WE KNOW THAT HE DIED
19: 33- So peace is on me The day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)!
55- Behold Allah said: O Jesus I will take thee and raise thee to myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject Faith, to the day of resurrection: then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.
WE BELIEVE THAT JESUS PREVAILED. THERE HINTS THAT NO REASON FOR FLIGHT TO KASHMIR.
14- O ye who believe! Be ye helpers of Allah: As said Jesus the son of Mary to the Disciples, Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah? Said the Disciples, We are Allah's helpers! Then a portion of the Children of Israel believed, and a portion disbelieved: but We gave power to those who believed, against their enemies, and they became the ones that prevailed.
WE BELIEVE THATTHEY NEVER KILLED HIM
157- That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah"- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not-
HE WAS NOT GOD OR ANY RELATIVE TO GOD
17- In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary. Say: who then hath the least power against Allah, if his will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every one that is on the earth? for to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what he pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things.
171- O People of the Book! commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one God: glory be to him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.
172- Christ disdaineth not to serve and worship Allah, nor do the angels, those nearest (to Allah): those who disdain his worship and are arrogant, he will gather them all together unto Himself to (answer).
18- (both) the Jews and the Christians say: we are sons of Allah, and his beloved. Say: why then doth he punish you for your sins? nay, ye are but men, of the men he created: he forgiveth whom he pleaseth, and he punisheth whom he pleaseth,: and to god belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between: and unto him is the final goal (of all)
30- The Jews call Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the Unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the truth
31- They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but one Allah: there is no god but he. Praise and glory to him: (far is he) from having the partners they associate (with him).
JESUS AND APOSTLES WERE MUSLIM
52- When Jesus found unbelief on their part he said: who will be my helpers to (the work of) Allah? said the disciples: we are Allah's helpers: we believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.
59- The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; he created him from dust, then said to him: Be: and he was.
75- Christ, the son of Mary, was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make his Signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!
JESUS WAS BLESSED WHERESOEVER HE BE (IN TOMB TOO), PEACE ON HIM THE DAY HE DIE. THIS IS A CLUE THAT NO TOMB WOULD HAVE BEEN DISCOVERED IN HASTE OF GETTING HIS BONES OUT AS IN ROSE BALL OR JARUSALEM.
THEY SAY A HISTORICAL STORY ABOUT HAZRETI MOHAMMAD AFTER HIS BURIAL. TWO THIEVES FROM WEST CAME TO MEDINA TO STEAL TOMB BY DIGGING UNDER COVER PLOT. THEY WERE STOPPED BY THE KING. THE KING SET FOR MEDINA AFTER REPETITION OF A HOLY DREAM. HE CARRIED OUT A PLAN SUCCESSFULLY TO CAPTURE TWO THIEVES BEFORE ANY DAMAGE DONE. THEY MADE A HEAVY ARMOUR TO THE TOMB AFTER THE INCIDENT.
SIMILARLY I BELIEVE NO ADVERSARY PLOT MAY EVER BE DONE TO JESUS TOMB. OR TO ANY PROPHETS TOMB.
19:28-35
O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not A man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!
But she pointed to the babe. They said: How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?
He said: I am indeed A servant of Allah: He hath given me revelation and made me A prophet;
And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, And hath enjoined on me prayer and Charity as long As I live;
(He) hath made me kind To my mother, and not overbearing or miserable;
So peace is on me The day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)!
Such (was) Jesus the son Of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.
It is not befitting To (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to him! when he determines a matter, He only says To it, be, and it is.
The above statements reflect my humble opinions, does not relate/ attribute to any islamic or non islamic view.
Regards
Name:roy •
Date: 04/03/07 20:24
A: Perseptions,
If you take the verse at this meaning in the past tense, the expectation of Jesus coming to earth once more is going to become baseless.
[4:159] Everyone among the people of the scripture was required to believe in him before his death. On the Day of Resurrection, he will be a witness against them.
There is no evidece in Quran that he will come back to world again.
If you / many translators build your idea of “Jesus will come earth – then everybody will believe in him”. It will be very difficult to solving the generations faith/punishment of nonbelieving until his second coming.
It will be very absurd to expect everybody to believe in him in his second coming, as it didnt happened at the first coming. No prophet has enjoyed total surrender to him by his peers/ comunity. Quran says nonbelievers are always majority, however the believers have been governing over them from past till eternity.
You may further investigate the ideas of another islamic approach to Jesus topics from link below: Please take off any hyphens if appears.
http://www.submission.org/jesus.html
Name:roy •
Date: 04/03/07 20:37
A: Sam,
Monumental articles you produce, I am amazed after reading your letters. They are filled with wisdom ornamented with belief which made a civilised man Quran asked from us.
Selamun Aleykum
Name:Nate Spain •
Date: 04/03/07 21:36
A: I'm sorry, Roy, but I have to emphasize that when you say, "We believe," the fact of the matter is that there is **not** universal agreement, amongst Muslims, about those verses. I have already proven that. There is no sense in my repeating those proofs.
All over the Internet there are, in fact, entire websites that debate the meanings of the verses pertaining to Jesus. I'll provide two of them later, if I get time. It seems that you want people to believe that there is 100% unanimity, amongst Muslims, about Jesus in Qur'an.
"WE BELIEVE THAT JESUS PREVAILED. THERE HINTS THAT NO REASON FOR FLIGHT TO KASHMIR.
14- O ye who believe! Be ye helpers of Allah: As said Jesus the son of Mary to the Disciples, Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah? Said the Disciples, We are Allah's helpers! Then a portion of the Children of Israel believed, and a portion disbelieved: but We gave power to those who believed, against their enemies, and they became the ones that prevailed."
I have no idea what the relevance is. The above verse does not exclude the possibility that Jesus went to Kashmir, **where there were other Israelite tribes,** for the purpose of continuing his preaching.
The fact that Jewish tribes existed in Kashmir has always been known, and even the Rabbinate of Israel recently accepted the Bnai Manashe tribe of India as being true Jews.
The Qur'an is not a history book. Also, only Muslims who believe as you do believe the interpretation you place on that book. I, and some 5 billion or so other human beings, **are not Muslims.** So, the Qur'an does not hold, for me, as the definitive book.
It's just ONE book. The Bible offers clues that Jesus may have left his homeland, and gone to Kashmir. Because the Bible records that Jesus said that he had "other sheep" that he had to administer to. Who were those other sheep? Those other sheep were the 10 tribes of Jews that WERE NOT in his homeland when he preached.
When he preached, there were only 2 tribes of Jews in his homeland: Binyomeen (Benjamin) and Yehuda (Judah). The other 10 tribes had been scattered far away by previous conquerers, one being Nebechadneezer. Fact.
So, the "other sheep" that he said that he had to administer to could have been those Jewish tribes who had scattered to the northern tier of Afghanistan, and on to Kashmir.
Again, the Qur'an is NOT a history book. The Qur'an DOES NOT give all answers to all things in history. The Qur'an does not say where Jesus was born. The Qur'an does not say where he went to school. The Qur'an does not say where he was during those missing years that are unaccounted for in the Bible.
So, it is perfectly legitimate, especially for non-Muslims, to see the Qur'an as ONE book that might give a CLUE about where Jesus went:
"And we made the son of Mary and his mother a Sign, and gave them shelter on an elevated land of pastures and streams of running water."
--Nate--
Name:Perceptions •
Date: 04/04/07 1:05
A: Roy,
I DO NOT support Jesus's being BODILY ALIVE CONCEPT or his SECONG COMING.
Had you read that POST, carefully, you might had replied differently.
My arguments were based on WHAT, is usually represented FROM QURAN ,in favour of THIS MYTHICAL BELIEF.
The FIRST AYA, creates such an illusion to most , that they interpret the SECOND AYA, to support this illusion, Nonetheess, it is disillusioned in the THIRD ONE in the row, quite clearly, in the main context of the DOUBTFUL/DISPUTED issue................whether taken in present or past tense.
You can read my arguments for SAM, in another post.
Quran is not a BOOK OF HISTORY, and it was not supposed to be one.
It was not written as TRADITIONS by the narrators. It is believed to be the DIRECT RELEVATION---THE EXACT WORDS OF THE LORD OF THE UNIVERSE.
Quran itself admits that some people find it as a "book of stories of past"----ASSA TEER UL AV_VALEEN in Arabic, but it is NOT.
The stories described has some relevancy to what the coming generations should learn from it.
It covers ALL the important people and the issues, which must be taken into CONSIDERATION.
So it si MORE LIKELY that JESUS'S DEATH ISSUE, was NOT THE ISSUE FOR MUSLIMS, I mean those who believed in Quran, which indicates that there might have been NO SUCH MYTHS about his REPLACEMENT with another person (unjustfully), POPULAR amongst Muslims of that time, other wise , there must have been some clues in HADITH, at least, as it was such an interesting story to be retold ,repeatedly.
P.S. The above link supports your arguments from Bible .
Name:roy •
Date: 04/04/07 9:24
A: Nate,
Please take a look at my previous post again I put the warning describes as below:
The above statements reflect my humble opinions, does not relate/ attribute to any islamic or non islamic view.
Jesus might have never call his followers as sheeps. It is against human nature. We use it when someone want to degrade a comunity. I was almost got into fight with a Phd Theologian who called himself shepherd and us sheeps. He was about to be fired from his job because of that.
I dont say he was not possibly on journey to Kashmir as well as thousands of places. Jesus if ever went to Kashmir was not because he was on the run. He was prevailed. It is proven that his teaching has not been curbed out by opponents.
Regards
Name:Nate Spain •
Date: 04/04/07 12:18
A: Roy, the world "sheep" has two connotations, depending on how used. One connotation is the negative one. For instance, "Those people are nothing but sheep!!" That means the follow blindly.
The other connotation is a good one, Roy. It simply means a people who are in need of teaching, such as the Arabs were at the time of Muhammad. Muhammad was a shephered, leading his people. You probably would not like to use the word that way, but some do.
To Christians, the word "sheep" or "shephered" have a good connotation. It has a good connotation in my mind also. In fact, it is a term of endearment: "These are my sheep," that is, the people I am responsible to teach.
As regards Jesus going to Kashmir, his escape to Kashmir does not indicate failure. It indicates success. He had prayed to God, according to the Bible, to answer his prayers and save him from death on the cross. According to the Jesus-in-India theory, his prayers were answered. God saved his life. Then he travelled to Kashmir.
Moses was successful. He ESCAPED away from Pharoah. So, would you claim that Moses was a failure, because he "ran away?" Do you believe in Moses?
Jesus' travel to Kashmir is not failure, Roy. It is big success. He continued his preaching freely, in Kashmir, married, had children, and died at a ripe old age. And he was honored in Kashmir, both during and after his life. After his death, people have been visiting his grave since then, bringing offerings. And, to this very day, people bring offerings to the Roza Bal. And the people, according to one document, would come from all over Kashmir just to visit his grave.
Failure would have been if he had died on the cross. And some people, such as Suzanne Olsson, theorize that Jesus even became a king of Kashmir. If that happened, then his success was even stronger.
And, here is one interesting thing, though I do not know if it is as meaningful as it might sound: Go to a search engine and type, "tomb of Jesus." What comes up? Out of millions of returns, the return that comes up at the very top of the list, No. 1, is the tomb of Jesus IN KASHMIR.
Coincidence? Why would "the Universe," or God or Allah, allow that? None of the 3 tombs in Israel that are believed by some to be Jesus' tomb come up as the first return. Not the Garden Tomb, not the tomb inside the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, and not the Talpiot tomb.
It's almost as if it is a SIGN from God. And maybe it is. Roy, is the following verse of Quran talking about an incident in the life of Moses? Or is it talking about Jesus?
"Remember the time when you slew a person, and differed amongst yourselves about it? And Allah would bring to light what you were hiding."
If that verse was actually talking about Jesus, then perhaps the fact that the Kashmir tomb comes up as the No.1 return on a search of "tomb of Jesus" is a prophecy fulfilled: Your Allah "bringing to light" what "Bani Israel" was hiding.
Is it not possible? Is it not possible that Bani Israel, the Jews, KNOW very well where Jesus is buried? Your Quran says that people have "no certain knowledge" about where Jesus is buried. No **certain** knowledge. But your Quran also says that God would "bring to light what they were hiding," concerning a person who Bani Israel, the Jews, thought that they had killed, then differed about whether or not he was dead ["...and differed amongst yourselves about it."]
Certainly there was some confusion at the time of Jesus' death. Even Pilate was confused about it, according to the Bible. Because when Pilate's Centurion came to Pilate to give his report, telling Pilate that Jesus was dead, the Bible says, "And Pilate marvelled that he were already dead." Pilate expressed SURPRISE that Jesus had died so soon.
Then, afterwards, they went to visit his tomb--but he was gone. Where was he? There was confusion: "...and differed amongst yourselves about it."
I'm not an Arabic scholar, of course, nor am I Muslim historian. But Muslims tell me that the verse of the Quran can have MORE than one meaning. In fact, Muslims claim that the Arabic language is so rich that verses of Quran can have many different meanings.
So, the verse that says, "Remember the time when you slew a person and differed amongst yourselves about it," could be talking about Jesus. It could mean that they **attempted** to slay Jesus, but then there was confusion--they differed about it.
Then it says, "And Allah would bring to light what you were hiding." Again, maybe the prophecy has been fulfilled:
www.tombofjesus.com :-)
Regards,
Nate
Name:Nate Spain •
Date: 04/04/07 12:28
A: Roy, regarding the possibility that Bani Israel knows where Jesus is buried, here is an interesting item: Up until a couple of years ago, JEWISH travel to the tomb of Jesus in Kashmir was INCREASING.
In fact, the largest number of tourists visiting Jesus tomb in Kashmir has been Israelis. Go on the web and type, "Israelis visit Jesus tomb Kashmir."
One return is entitled, "The Israeli Connection." You can read that, but there are others you can read also.
The Israelis fully know that Jesus is buried in Kashmir, DESPITE this Talpiot charade.
--Nate--
Name:Perceptions •
Date: 04/04/07 13:51
A: Nate,
POLITELY; Did you start believing in Quran because of the TombOfJesus, or in TOJ because of Quran?
Kindly provide the referrence for the following, I would like to see the previous Ayas, too. Interesting!
"Remember the time when you slew a person, and differed amongst yourselves about it? And Allah would bring to light what you were hiding."
Thanks
Name:Perceptions •
Date: 04/04/07 13:57
A: Well, There's is a POSSIBILITY that it's a time to REVEAL some mysteries, by Allah.
In ART , we make a CONTRAST to HIGHLIGHT an image of the foreground, and to divert the attention of the viewer from other images!
Should this TALPIOT TOMB, be a CONTRAST to the TOJ, then many other QUESTIONS will also SURFACE!
???
Name:Nate Spain •
Date: 04/04/07 17:51
A: "POLITELY; Did you start believing in Quran because of the TombOfJesus, or in TOJ because of Quran?"
???
The question makes no sense.
Name:Nate Spain •
Date: 04/04/07 17:53
A: Chapter : 2 (Al-Baqarah) Verse : 73, says:
And remember the time when you killed a person and differed among yourselves about it, and Allah would bring to light what you were hiding.
Name:Nate Spain •
Date: 04/04/07 17:56
A: Incidentally, the tomb of Jesus in Kashmir is not my religion. I **do not have** a religion. I believe in God. I don't follow priests, rabbis, imams, churches, mosques, or synagogues. My relationship is between me and God, and I have no intermediaries.
No "hadith" come between me and the God I believe in. I do not allow people to interpret scriptures for me. I read the Bhagavad Gita, the Qur'an, the Bible, or whatever scripture I wish. There is no "authority" over me other than God.
Name:Perceptions •
Date: 04/04/07 21:21
A: Nate,
The question has , had SOME SENSE!
Thanks for the reference. It is 2:72, and not 73, excpet at one place.
I'll ,soon, comment on it.
Well having gone through the other posts by you, it does not sound a DIRECTIONLESS MIND, as you have just stated!
Searching for a GOD in these scriptures and referring to them, is NOT a meaningless task, either.
Regards
Name:sam •
Date: 04/04/07 21:34
A: Perceptions,
- here a correction to your correction:
First : WAL KIN SHUBBEHA "LAKUM".
Second: Arabic - WALAKIN SHUBBEHA "LAKUM". correction!
As it came in Arabic: WALAKEN SHUBBEHA "LAHUM"
The Quran was written in Arabic, and the right and exact word is "LAHUM", and that is how it came and written before 1400 years and never changed.
and there is a big difference between LAKUM and LAHUM, that is if you understand Arabic. In any translation from one language to another mistake can be made specially when the people who translate are not 100% knowledgable of the language. A Pakistany translated the word "JIBAL" (mountains) as it came in the Quran as "HILLS", and that is wrong, because the Arabic word for Hills is "TELAL".
"SAMAWAT" (SKYS) TRANSLATED WRONG AS "HEAVEN" WHILE HEAVEN IN ARABIC IS "JANNAT".
What happen in the translation of the Quran, happens in the translation of the bible and the gospels when translated from Aramaic to Hebrew to Greek- to Latin -to English, and that is a fact. but the truth you find in the original and you should ask the people whom their mother language is Arabic and not the others.
If the translation done wrong because a lack of knowledge, that should not be taken as the original is wrong, you will come to the truth from the original only.
Besise your mistake in putting the word "LAKUM" instead of "LAHUM", you make another mistake by claiming that the Quran was written by the Khaliph after the death of Muhhamad and that is wrong and another mistake. You should not bring lies.
"The history of the world is a witness to the fact that the authenticity of the Qur'an is beyond reproach. There are absolutely no discrepancies in its text, and there is only one version. Every copy is exactly like the other and anyone can verify that fact. The skeptic can purchase a copy of the Qur'an in Indonesia and check it with any Quran around the world, He will have to confirm that not even a dot has changed in its text over the centuries.
The prophet and hundreds of his companions committed it to memory right at the time of its revelation. Those who were literate read the written text and learnt it by heart.
Today there are millions of people who can recite the entire Qur’an by memory in its original order. It can never become extinct, even if all of its written copies are destroyed.
The veses of the Quran were written at the same time when spoken by the Prophet, and in His language,and compiled before His death, in the holy land. while the gospels were written after (35-70 years) from Jesus death, and not by His language (Aramaic), and not in the holy land. The gospels were written in Hebrew and Greek, by people who never been with Jesus (Mark, Luke and maybe the others), there is conflict about that. And while there is one book in the case of the Quran, there are many books (24 or 27?). four gospels chosen while many were burnt!!!, even those gospels which belong to people whom been with Jesus were burned!!!, for sure you know this fact.
Perceptions. you said:
I forgot, there is not a SINGLE HADITH in support of that MYTH,
------------------------------
The Quran is the word of God, and does not need to be supported by Hadith, (the words of the prophet), and not by any others. In the contrary the words of the Hadith should be in line to what came in the Quran otherwise will not be accepted. The muslims follow God and HIS word (the Quran),and not Muhammad and His word (the Hadith).
While on the other hand, when i bring the subject of Jesus as the son of man, the christians deny what Jesus said, and they say He is one person of three, and He is God, and they support their arguement by the words of Paul and the others!. While they know that formula came after more than 300 years from Jesus death, and it is an invention and a MYTH, similar to the others which been used by the Greeks and the Romans
THE MYTH!?.
The Quran said:
"....ALL HEAVENLY BODIES, IN AN ORBIT ARE SWIMMING". That is fact aproved by today science, and not a MYTH.
Important note before talking abour the Gospels: "THE WORD OF JESUS ARE THE WHOLE TRUTH., but the others not, and their word can be questioned."
"...If the sea were ink for writing the words of my LORD, the sea would be exausted before the words of my LORD were exausted, even if we brought the like of it as a supplement.' Q18:109
That is THE TRUTH because God is the creator, and if we understand what is the creation from, and from what we know today about the earth and what is on it and the universe above us and what it holds, then we might be able to imagine the true word of God.
It took NASA many years to creat a vehicle and put man on the moon, all that came in writing of millions of words, and all the people around the world are writing days and night, but they did not create as much as a fly.
and to create everything in God universe it will need seas of ink to record it. God just gave us an example to show us His power.
The Gospel said :
A - "And the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken." , " Then they will see the SON OF MAN (Jesus) COMING IN CLOUDS WITH GREAT POWER AND GLORY." Mark 13:25/26
The stars will be falling...THEN WILL SEE....Jesus will come in the cloud!!!, that is a MYTH, my friend.
But you belive in it, while you are an educated one and live in 21st century, and for sure you know what the star means.
So, please can you tell if the earth will still be intact and there are clouds on it, and then still be people to see Jesus or the cloud, even if only one star falls on the earth?. Do not forget that our sun is a star, so, you tell me what happen if it fall on earth.
B - "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which IF they were written in detail, I SUPPOSE THAT EVEN THE WORLD ITSELF WOULD NOT CONTAIN THE BOOKS THAT WOULD BE WRITTEN."!!! John21:25
That is not true, Jesus , from the time He started His ministery until His death was less than 3 years, all what He did and all what He says are written in less than 100 pages (His word and His journey). that makes John story an extreme EXAGGERATION, and make it more of MYTH.
While the Quran said:
"...If the sea were ink for writing the words of my LORD, the sea would be exausted before the words of my LORD were exausted, even if we brought the like of it as a supplement.' Q18:109
That is THE TRUTH. if you had the ability to differentiate between the word of God and the word of John.
interestingly, though it MUST have been an important ISSUE for Muslims of 14 centuries ago. Did they never BOTHER to CONFIRM it, with Muhammad pbuh???
-------------------------------
Jesus is a prophet , a messenger and a servant to God ( Behold my servant, whom I have chosen), (The disciple is not above [his] master, nor the servant above his lord), like Abraham and Moses and Muhammad and the others. The Quran tells the truth about Jesus death, and the muslims believe in Him as a prophet, and they do believe in what the Quran tell them. But as for your story of Jesus death and (lifted up , and sat down at the right hand of God) that is a MYTH, and the muslim understand that and it is not of an important issue for them not before 14 centuries and not now.
THE WORD OF GOD DOES NOT NEED A CONFIRMATION. You should know better.
Some christian belive that Allah is the God of the Muslim, forgeting that God has Many different names, for the English "GOD", for the French "DIEW", for Jesus "ELI" and so on, but with all those names given to God it won't change the fact that God is one an HE is our creator, and He is the same God.
"THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD", "THE ONE AND ONLY GOD"
I HOPE YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT JESUS SAID.
God bless you
Name:roy •
Date: 04/04/07 23:13
A: Nate,
Yes I believe in Moses, and know his story from the infant till the prophesy. His name is Mo-ses Going with the nile, or similar to that because he was left to river nile in a wooden box upon revelation to her mother ~just like Virgin Mary.
I believe he or we had no assumption / sense of defeat or victory upon his going to israel. He was ordered to do so by God.
The followers had been drawn into depth of redsea where they were killed. Mohammad (saas) had several fights because of that kind of flight. He was followed by enemy during Hijrat. It must be the same story if Jesus ever fled to Kashmir. But there is no recording of that kind of confrontation.
There is also a deep mystery for relatives of Jesus whereabouts. If they ever fled somewhere together, their tombs must also take place around him.Virgin Mary, Uncle, step brothers, ~if existed wife(s), children.
Google search for tomb of jesus point Roza Bal, does not make a profound witness. First rate evidence is not searched at Snap, Altavista, yahoo or Google at no time.
Regarding 2:071-73. You base your assumption on; there was a crime against Jesus. We believe it never happened according to Quran. Contraversal enough, you bring evidence from Quran which has omitted crucifixion.
That verse related to another event: The interpreters refer the story to a man who was killed by two of his nephews for inheritence. They were in dispute about the kiler. Then Moses did as described below to understand the killer.
It may be a clue for the future generations. Perhaps in the future some help from Genes of a cow might help otopsy of a dead men to identify the killer.
It has no direct relevancy to Jesus case. However imagination, with science may help to solve the mystery behind Hz.Jesus.
002:071-73 He [Musa (Moses)] said, "He says, 'It is a cow neither trained to till the soil nor water the fields, sound, having no other colour except bright yellow.' " They said, "Now you have brought the truth." So they slaughtered it though they were near to not doing it.
And (remember) when you killed a man and fell into dispute among yourselves as to the crime. But Allah brought forth that which you were hiding.
So We said: "Strike him (the dead man) with a piece of it (the cow)." Thus Allah brings the dead to life and shows you His Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) so that you may understand.
Another proof from Quran that Jesus was not crucifixed.
021:006-11
We never annihilated a believing community in the past. Are these people believers?
We did not send before you except men whom we inspired. Ask those who know the scripture, if you do not know.
We did not give them bodies that did not eat, nor were they immortal.
We fulfilled our promise to them; we saved them together with whomever we willed, and annihilated the transgressors.
We have sent down to you a scripture containing your message. Do you not understand?
Many a community we terminated because of their transgression, and we substituted other people in their place.
Nate Spain wrote:
My relationship is between me and God, and I have no intermediaries.
No "hadith" come between me and the God I believe in. I do not allow people to interpret scriptures for me. I read the Bhagavad Gita, the Qur'an, the Bible, or whatever scripture I wish. There is no "authority" over me other than God.
Roy wrote:
I am the same as you feel, only difference I go to mosque mainly, church and synagogue occasionally to pray to One God. I am muslim. I believe in Quran was word of God.
“Dont having a religion “ among millions nowadays justified to a certain extent as an excuse to avoid resemblence to others, minimize risk of the pitfalls others fell. If one use the brains they never fell into perceiving of one from the herd, or ugly looks of bigot devotee of religion. It goes to the opposite; perfecting ones soul, reaching upper echelons of knowledge, competing only with him/herself. I dont have any feeling of resemblence but freedom to pray as I wish to God directly. By product, I get brothers or sisters support and comfort around me when I recognise one of them.
Detective work is paying off, you made a lot of progress for us too in finding out more facts.
Name:Perceptions •
Date: 04/05/07 2:58
A: Sam,
Thanks for pointing out, Iread it wrongly, as LAKUM , and LAHUM , are common, I corrected the first part , that Iwrote wrongly.
I know this much at least LAKUM, is for you, and LAHUM or them...
Anyway , I HAVE NO INTENTIONS TO CHANGE QURAN BEING A BELIEVER! (ridiculous alleation, lol!)
Ipaid MORE attention to ALL the translations , I presented from the AUTHENTIC SOURCE...TO RECTIFY YOUR ABSURD AND MISLEADING TRANSLATION.
"...BUT ANOTHER WAS MADE TO RESEMBLE HIM TO THEM.."
THERE IS NO PLACE FOR SUCH MYTHS IN ISLAM, BORROWED FROM OTHERS.
Whe-re- did I write that QURAN was WRITTEN BY CALIPHS? (My God!)
Name:Perceptions •
Date: 04/05/07 3:11
A: ISLAMIC VIEW REGARDING JESUS"S DEATH ( etext.virginia.edu)
"5.116": And when Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah he will say: Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it; Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I do not know what is in Thy mind, surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen things.
"5.117": I did not say to them aught save what Thou didst enjoin me with: That serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord, and I was a witness of them so long as I was among them, but when Thou didst cause me to die, Thou wert the watcher over them, and Thou art witness of all things.
SUPPORTIVE HADITH
Narrated Ibn Abbas
The Prophet delivered a sermon and said, "You (people) will be gathered before Allah (on the Day of Resurrection) bare-footed, naked and uncircumcised." (The Prophet then recited):-- 'As We began the first creation We shall repeat it. (It is) a promise We have undertaken and truly We shall do it.' and added, "The first man who will be dressed on the Day of Resurrection, will be Abraham. Lo! Some men from my followers will be brought and taken towards the left side,whereupon I will say, 'O Lord, (these are) my companions!' It will be said, 'You do not know what new things they introduced (into the religion) after you.' I will then say as the righteous pious slave,Jesus, said, 'I was a witness over them while I dwelt among them...(to His Statement)..and You are the Witness to all things.' (5.117) Then it will be said, '(O Muhammad) These people never stopped to apostate since you left them."
"21.34"-:- And We did not ordain abiding for any mortal before you (Muhmmad). What! Then if you die, will they abide?
Chapter : 21 : 35
We granted not everlasting life to any mortal before thee. If thou shouldst die, shall they live here for ever?
Name:Shlomo •
Date: 04/05/07 4:36
A: The Qu'ran and its supporting books also went through a metamorphosis several times. It was written using the method of contextual elimination, altering and manipulating portions of old covenant, new covenant, ancient pagan Arabic stories, sayings of Mohammad and some of the old tribal leaders. The rejection of Mohammad being a true prophet sent from G-d by the Jewish people, his own trible people and family was the catalist to create the Qu'ran.
Name:roy •
Date: 04/05/07 13:58
A: Perceptions wrote:
Well!- what do you say in regard to the other AYA, I mean the one about
"JESUS & HIS MOTHER, AS A SIGN---with respect to a SHELTER?"
23:50 50- And We made the son of Mary and his mother as a Sign: We gave them both shelter on high ground, affording rest and security and furnished with springs.
The sequence shows that the time was after Jesus birth of course.
The place and details of timing is not clearly understood from this ayat. It was certain that place was habitable plain with enough basic comphorts.
Some authors say the place was at Damascus, Remle, Jaruslem or Egypt. According to Biblical referances, After the birth of Jesus , Virgin Mary firstly departed from her hometown and accommodated at Egypt at era of Nerad till his death. Secondly Mary had to leave her hometown and stay at Galile Nasira in time of Arishelus. (Matta 2:13-23)
ANOTHER AYAT REGARDING SIGN OF JESUS
43:61Yusuf Ali (English)
And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): Therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: this is a Straight Way.
43:61: M. Pickthall (English)
And lo! verily there is knowledge of the Hour. So doubt ye not concerning it, but follow Me. This is the right path.
The sign is not Jesus but the Quran for the knowledge of doomsday~Hour. I believe in that meaning. Some translators has selected word as “Jesus” some “Quran”. There is debate about it as you see in two different translations. Some even claim mathematically that after Jesus birth date as a sign the dooms day will be at 2280 AD (R. Khalifa ecole).
Name:roy •
Date: 04/05/07 14:14
A: Shlomo wrote:
The Qu'ran and its supporting books also went through a metamorphosis several times.
Roy Wrote:
The metamorphosis is observed in lifespans of insects. Your claim holds true for the hadiths ~alleged sayings of Prophet Mohammad sas.
Quran was memorized by hundreds of men at time of revelation. It was systematically recorded immediately after Mohammads pass away. It was never changed a word or added anything.
You may keep saying that Quran was manmade. You may not possibly understand the message in it as you are strongly opposing it. There is a simple defy competition in Quran.
2:23 And if ye are in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto Our slave (Muhammad), then produce a surah of the like thereof, and call your witnesses beside Allah if ye are truthful.
10:38 Or say they: He hath invented it? Say: Then bring a surah like unto it, and call (for help) on all ye can besides Allah, if ye are truthful.
On the other hand all other supplementary books has many false additions, that has caused todays confusion about the way of life of muslims and christians.
Your contribution holds truth and makes sense to understand the fundementalist and bigotry movements in both religion.
Name:Perceptions •
Date: 04/05/07 17:35
A: Roy,
I appreciate your response to my question.
It seems to me a matter of common sense, as the shelter, basically , applies to provide a security from an ESCAPE, for instance , as it was in case on Moses as a BABY found a shelter in Pharoah's palace; was brought up their, and started receiveing the relevation of what to do next.
(Her mother of course must have been instructed by the God to let the BABY go through the relevation, of course.)
The above two situations are UN-COMPARABLE to what happened both Prophets in their ADULTHOOD, regarding it's significance as SIGNS, as they were NOT RECOGNIZED, .....AS PROPHETS BY IN THEIR CHILDHOODS! ( although Jesus was believed to say wise things in his childhood and claimed to be from Allah. (Sura e Maryiam)
And what should have been the significance of such shelter, the chilhood one's, when Mary brought him back amongst the same people again, to preach, who were destined to become the future enemies?
(I'll be back , need to look for something.)
Name:sam •
Date: 04/05/07 17:57
A: Perceptions,
You quoted: Anyway , "I HAVE NO INTENTIONS TO CHANGE QURAN BEING A BELIEVER! (ridiculous alleation, lol!)".
------------------------------------------------
Ar-e- you aware, or at least understand (Mr. Perception) that you are attacking the Quran by your nonsence words. Saying: MYTH, ridiculous, alleation or lol , without supporting your silly and foolish claims by facts as I did when I brought you the facts, that the Bible and the gospels (not including the word of Moses or Jesus) are full with MYTH and false stories, then I support my claims by showing you where are those MYTHS written.
You did not stand up and defend your holy books when I brought some of the false and Myth stories exactly as been written, because you cannot deny that they are false and Myth, and you know that what I said is true, and instead of defending your many holy "BOOKS" you attacked the other holy "BOOK" by using ridiculous words which shows what kind of mind you have!. You should bring facts supported by LOGIC and not empty words. Jesus was right when He said:
LUKE- 6:41 “ Why do you look at the "SPECK" that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the "LOG" that is in your own eye?
The history of the churches full of lies, deceptions and LOL, from their biginning in Rome until now, and their followers follow their steps.
You do not follow Jesus, Jesus words are clear and hold the truth, but you follow Paul and the popes and the bishops and the fathers and the REV and everyone else. They burned the truth, and killed the people who did not accept the lies of Paul and his supporters.
1Cornintians 4:21 What do you desire? SHALL I COME TO YOU WITH A ROD, or with love and spirit of gentleness?,
-Either you follow me, or I will be using the ROD, that is PAUL doctrine, and the churches too.
Galattians-1:20 Now in what I am writing to you, I ASSUR YOU BEFORE GOD THAT I AM NOT LYING.
Romans-9:1 I AM TELLING THE TRUTH in Christ, I AM NOT LYING, MY CONSCIENCE TESTIFIES WITH ME in the holy spirit.
-Paul testify by GOD, the Holy Spirit , and not by the son of GOD?.
- Then, he lies :
Romans 3:7 But if THROUGH MY LIE the truth of GOD abounded to his glory, why am I also still being judged as a sinner.
-Is that means that HE is lying, or what?. Because lying never bring the truth , and we will never get the truth from a person who lie.
-He was judged before as a sinner, and still judged as a sinner after, that is by his own words. And from his own words came this:
Romans 3:8 And why not say, “LET US DO EVIL that good may come”? Their condemnation is just.
-Is that means that HE justified doing evil thing, or what?, and does it ever the good comes from evil?.
2Corinthians-11:16 Again I say, LET NO ONE THINK ME FOOLISH; BUT IF YOU DO, RECEIVE ME EVEN AS FOOLISH, so that I also may boast a little.
2Corinthians-11:19 For you, being so wise, tolerate the foolish gladly.
-Did any one think or said that he is foolish?, and whom?. Why he want to boast himself instead of being a humble man?.
JESUS said:
MATTHEW- 15:10 “ it is not what enters into the mouth that defiles the man, but what proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man.”
2COR. 11: 8 I ROBBED OTHER CHURCHES by taking wages from them to serve you.
Paul robbed to serve others. That is wrong. #8 commandment: "YOU SHALL NOT STEAL".
1COR 6:3 Do you not know that WE WILL JUDGE ANGELS ? How much more matters of this life?.
"WE WILL". That means for sure, but can he do that?. Can the ANGELS OF GOD, whom they are of spirit be judged by man, Paul and his friends?. Is that a BIG LIE?.
And Paul's VISION was it true?, Can he be allowed to visit the third heaven after claiming that he will judge God Angels?.
Do you think that the personal letters and the words of Paul are from God or inspired by God?,
I would like to ask you an important question: " what you say about a man who show himself as a dimocrat in front of dimocrats, and then he make himself a republican in front of republican, the he is with the left against the right and with right against the left the right ?. Do you agree with me that such a man has different faces and has no loyalty, and cannot be trusted, and his is a liar?. then what is your opinion when you read this:
1Cor. 9:20 TO THE JEWS I BECAME AS A JEW; SO THAT I MIGHT WIN JEWS; TO THOSE WHO ARE UNDER THE LAW, AS UNDER THE LAW THOUGH NOT BEING MYSELF UNDER THE LAW, AS UNDER THE LAW, SO THAT I MIGHT WIN THOSE WHO ARE UNDER THE LAW;
1COR. 9:21 TO THOSE WHO ARE WITHOUT LAW, AS WITHOUT LAW OF GOD BUT UNDER THE LAW OF CHRIST*, SO THAT I MIGHT WIN THOSE WHO ARE WITHOUT LAW.
1COR. 9:23 I DO ALL THINGS for the sake of the gospel, SO THAT I MAY BECAME A FELLOW PARTAKER OF IT.
* Is the law of the CHRIST differ from the law of GOD?.
- Is what he said shows clearly that he is a man with many faces?
- Is that sows that his aim is to be a PARTAKER in the gospels?
- is what he said next is a prove to that.
Galatians 1:8 But even if WE (Paul and his supporter), or an ANGEL FROM HEAVEN (God's Angel), should preach to you a GOSPEL contrary to what WE HAVE PREACHED TO YOU, HE IS TO BE ACCURSED !!!.
- is what been said next is a prove to that too.
From the Catholic online Saints:
"Paul, returned to Damascus, he stayed there for a time, PREACHING in the Synagogues THAT JESUS IS THE CHRIST, ‘THE SON OF GOD’.
It was mentioned that PAUL, shows himself to be a profound religious thinker and he has had an enduring INFLUENCE IN ‘ THE DEVELOPMENT OF CHRISTIANITY’."
-My understanding from the subjects above that PAUL is the one who choses and desided for you what you read or hear, and you should follow him only otherwise you will be accursed, and he was the first one to discover, and to preach that JESUS CHRIST IS THE SON OF GOD, and he is the one who DEVELOPED CHRISTIANITY beyond it is originality .
Bishop John S. Spong agree with this, when he said:
"They were moving the CHRIST experience FAR BEYOUND ITS "ORIGINAL" VOCABULARY."
Also, he agree with me when he said:
"The Bible FULL OF CONTRADICTIONS AND ERRORS"
"The Gospels CANNOT BE TRUSTED to be reliable."
The word and teaching of Jesus is the whole truth, and they are clear and anyone can understand them , even a child,and should not be developed or interpreted in any other way.
Mr. Perceptios, read the words of Jesus and follow Him only, and not the others who follow the TRADITION. As Jesus mentioning them:
"YOU ARE EXPERTS AT SETTING ASIDE THE COMMANDMENT OF GOD IN ORDER TO KEEP YOUR TRADITION. Mark 7:9
God bless you.
Name:Nate Spain •
Date: 04/05/07 18:48
A: "13But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins."
The Christian West is AWASH in sin. Therefore, apparently the death of Christ did not redeem the sins of the world. It is as Paul said: "And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins."
If we are to believe Paul's words, then we must conclude that Christ was not raised from the dead.
www.tombofjesus.com
Name:Perceptions •
Date: 04/06/07 1:46
A: Sam Wrote for perceptions:
Ar-e- you aware, or at least understand (Mr. Perception) that you are attacking the Quran by your nonsence words. Saying: MYTH, ridiculous, alleation or lol , without supporting your silly and foolish claims by facts as I did when I brought you the facts, that the Bible and the gospels (not including the word of Moses or Jesus) are full with MYTH and false stories, then I support my claims by showing you where are those MYTHS written.
You did not stand up and defend your holy books when I brought some of the false and Myth stories exactly as been written, because you cannot deny that they are false and Myth, and you know that what I said is true, and instead of defending your many holy "BOOKS" you attacked the other holy "BOOK" by using ridiculous words which shows what kind of mind you have!
I'M A MUSLIM, AND I'M NOT HIDING MYSELF BEHIND ANY BUSHES .
I RESPECT ALL THE HOLY BOOKS AS I BELIEVE THAT ALLAH HAVE PRESERVED THE TRUTH OF THEM AS HE WANTED TO, EVEN IF THERE IS A GENERAL CONCEPT OF OCCURANCE "METAMORPHOLOGICAL CONSEQUENCES " THROUGH THE PASSAGE TIME,IN THEM.
I BELIEVE QURAN IS UNCHANGED, YET,MAY BE MISINTERPRETTED, ACCORDING TO SCHOLAR'S UNDERSTANDINGS,SO IT'S YOUR SILLINESS TO PUT SUCH ALLEGATIONS AGAINST ME.
QURAN AND HADITH DO NOT SUPPORT THE STORY OF JESUS BEING REPLACED BY ANYONE, NETHER HIS SECOND COMING, CLEARLY.SO ALL MY PREVIOUS ARGUMENTS WERE RELATED TO THAT VIEW, AS THE TOPIC OF THIS VERY THREAD REFER TO.
OPEN YOUR EYES PLZ. MIND YOU!
BYE!
Name:nothing_but_the_truth •
Date: 04/06/07 3:02
A: 'sam' wrote:
"The word and teaching of Jesus is the whole truth, and they are clear and anyone can understand them"
1. That is a matter of faith.
2. What Jesus taught and what can be read in the bible to be the same is also a matter of faith.
3. To take the bible as _the_ truth, the _whole_ truth, and _nothing_ _but_ the truth requires faith.
Instead of relying on sources and evidence which some people accept blindly as such and some reject entirely, why don't we all rely on scientific evidence instead?
Science may or may not be able to prove this or that, but the tomb and everything related to it sure is interesting regardless of what the evidence eventually supports.
And remember, that it is not always the destination or result that counts, but rather the journey or the process. The chase often _is_ better than the catch.
Name:sam •
Date: 04/06/07 22:34
A: Perceptions,
My language is Arabic and so is my education, My English is somehow not perfect, i taught myself to start with and learned more by living in England, Australia and Canada (38 years) mostly through work and reading. Still i have some problems writing and in finding the right word to explain my thoughts. I go to two dictionaries & Thesaurus (Arabic & English-Arabic) for help. I try to do my best, but after all that I do make mitakes as everyone else, and after sending my post to you i came back to read it againg, before reading the answers (I do that with all my posts) I discovered that I did a mix up and I do apologize. All what I wrote mainly came as an answer to this:
YOURS is just of a kind, that is ONLY supporting the MYTHICAL STORY ABOUT JESUS CRUCIFIXION, ......
"and is NOT the actual TRANSLATION OF THE "ARABIC......."
WAL KIN SHUBBEHA LAKUM......IT"S MISLEADING!
IF YOU ATTRIBUTE EVERY SINGLE THING WITH JESUS IN IT'S LITERARY SENSE ,FROM HIS MIRACULOUS BIRTH TO HIS END THEN
"HE WAS NOT A HUMAN!!!!"
Here some explanation about my work:
Facts: A- In the past I never been interested in any religions (for many reasons), and I never read any holy book, and my little knowledge about them comes from what I hear only, though, My believe in God and in His messages (His words)and messengers (the prophets) was always strong. what I heard about the laws of God (in all religion) Do not kill, do not steal etc., and what I heard about the prophets (in all religions) and their miracles and their way of teaching the people to be good, all that make me fell that all religions are the same and brought the same message. But looking around me, I saw that the religions are not representing the truth most of the time. The one faith became many, and the one God became many, and everything became total confusion.
B- At age of 65, and from watching TV"s programs about the "Jesus life", the "Inquisition", and many others, then came the "Gospel of Judas" and the forums about it, which make me feel that I should find the truth at last. I bought the Quran and the Gospels , and I read the Bible OT and read about Buddha and others, and I learned about the trinity and the popes and bishops and the saints history through the internet, besides, I learned a lot from those who participated in those forum as I am still learning here in this forum.
C- Since I am not attached to any religion, my search was neutral and I analyse things using the logic as a tool, and I do not take a phrase or few phrases (verse or few veses) to judge the authenticity of a book, but look at a book/books (Quran-Gospels-Bible), as whole, one unit, and what hold within in its different parts suppose to go in the same direction and should not contradict each others.
Ex. One and only God... Trinity. Son of man....Son of God....God.
Enoch walked with God ..........and Noah walked with God.
God the Holy Spirit, Who is in heaven, Walked with Enoch & Noah on earth !!!. Wow, what a story!!!. And the earth was created before the sun and the stars, and they do believe in it as the word of God!!!.
D- I started to collect the informations given in all the books, and sorted them according to the subjects that they represent, hundreds of pages and thousands of hours spent. I brought my finding while discussing the gospel of Judas in the NG forum, and as you know I am using it here.
E- The summary of the result of my work was these finding. 1- The Bible which they claim as the word of God, cannot be all from His word or not even a revelation from Him because some of what is written in it cannot be accepted logicaly * . Knowing the facts that the Gospels written after many yearsand by people who never been with Jesus, and then there are stories behind any logic makes the words of the writers cannot be accepted as representing the truth **. But reading the words of Jesus i could not find anything that is not true, and His words can be accepted lgically. As for the Quran there is nothing to contradict the other messeges that came before, but it goes on the same line of teaching, either by Moses or Jesus. Then the Quran gave many example of scientific knowledge, which were not known to people in the past but they are true in todays terms.
F- It came as a surprise to me when I found later, that the Bishop "John S. Spong of NJ " came to the same conclusion. The Bishop wrote 14 books with some of best sellers (internet), and here few line from his books:
- * The Bible full of contradictions and errors.
- ** The Gospels cannot be trusted to be reliable.
-God who can be killed ought to be killed
-A God or a faith system that has to be defended daily is finally no God or a faith system at all.
- Mark would never have understood a word like incarnation.
-Paul quite obviously was not trinitarian.
-The essnce of Christ was confused with the form in which that essence was communicated.
And from the former catholic NUN, Mary Ann Collins book (internet) I read the following:
"I BELIEVE IN THE TRINITY....I DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW IT WORK".
And when I read about the Trinity, I found out how that this formula was created in Rome by the Emperor Constantene and the Bishops, and it took six decades of DEBATES to be finalized.
And from the catholic online I foud another creation:
"Mary is the mother of God (Jesus), and God (Jesus) chose's Mary (Jesus-mother) to be HIS SPOUCE. And the so of God (Jesus) chose Mary (the mother & spouce of God) to be His mother.".
Then I wondered how a NUN who spent years studying in the Vatican from the top scholars and after all she could not understand this complecated formula, then I wondered if any one of the massess(ordinary) who believed it, really understand it.
(you can read her book 'online', it hold a lot of information about the Vatican and the popes).
Perceptions, both my son and his wife are doctors, they been married for ten years (my grandson is 8), she is catholic, and we never discussed religions, but it was a surprise to us to hear that she start fasting in last Ramadan, my son was surprised too, he did not ask her why, but we did ask her if she know the regulation of it, and she told us that she learn everything from the muslim sites, but she asked me one question, which wasn't mentioned on the net. She said: "can i brush my teeth and use water to clean, and not break my fasting", my answer was YES, and even if she drinks water by mistake that will not effect on her fasting.
I think what led her to learn about Islam is the same as what led me to go and read the books. From what we hear and what we read and what we see every day, about many new discoveries people for sure will ask themselves if they are on the righ track, most people specially the opem minded and the educated ones want the truth, because they understand the consequences of following the wrong teaching.
About the case of my daughter-in-law I think the Quran said it right here:
"INDEED, (O MUHAMMAD), YOU DO NOT GUIDE WHOM YOU LIKE, BUT ALLAH GUIDES WHOM HE WILLS. Q- 28:56
"THERE SHALL BE NO COMPULSION IN ACCEPTANCE OF THE RELIGION." Q- 2:256
God bless you.
Name:Perceptions •
Date: 04/07/07 3:08
A: Thankyou Sam for your concern!
I believe and respect you. Consider me as your daughter, and forgive me if I hurt your feelings anyway.
The mistakes I did were un-intentional.
I believe in Islam. It was the RELIGION of Allah, since day one, and was enjoined upon ALL the known Prophets of Allah, including Jesus Alaihissalaam.
PEACE!
Name:roy •
Date: 04/07/07 23:09
A: Sam wrote:
from watching TV"s programs about the "Jesus life", the "Inquisition", and many others, then came the "Gospel of Judas" and the forums about it, which make me feel that I should find the truth at last.
Roy wrote:
I recommend ;
İnside mecca http://shop.nationalgeograp-hic.com/product/1526.html
-(- Please take away – hyphens if any)
I wonder if you really not atached to any religion? Do you have any doubts about verses, if I may ask. Can you share if I can support with my ideas?
Name:Shlomo •
Date: 04/08/07 5:45
A: Islam does not have a clear understanding of G_d. That is mis-leading and self-serving.
Name:Perceptions •
Date: 04/08/07 15:09
A: HE IS THE GOD OF IBRAHIM
4.125: And who has a better religion than he who submits himself entirely to Allah? And he is the doer of good (to others) and follows the faith of Ibrahim, the upright one, and Allah took Ibrahim as a friend.
2.258: Have you not considered him (Namrud) who disputed with Ibrahim about his Lord, because Allah had given him the kingdom? When Ibrahim said: My Lord is He who gives life and causes to die, he said: I give life and cause death. Ibrahim said: So surely Allah causes the sun to rise from the east, then make it rise from the west; thus he who disbelieved was confounded; and Allah does not guide aright the unjust people.
Name:sam •
Date: 04/08/07 19:54
A: Nate Spain,
You mentioned this: "I'm not an Arabic scholar, of course, nor am I Muslim historian. But Muslims tell me that the verse of the Quran can have MORE than one meaning. In fact, Muslims claim that the Arabic language is so rich that verses of Quran can have many different meanings."
---------------------------
And I am not a scholar in English, nor a Christian historian, but I can say this:
- Those messages (the holy books) that came to us from long time ago been written in the language which been spoken by the messengers. Abraham He might spoke Aramaic, and Moses He might spoke Hebrew, and Jesus spoke Aramaic/Hebrew, and Muhammad spoke Arabic. The Aramaic, Hebrew and Arabic they are branches to the original "SEMITIC" language, (Semitic languages were among the earliest to attain a written form), for that reason there are many similarities among them, and some words in these three languages might have different meanings, and that is the case in many other languages. My language is Arabic, but I am writing in English, and sometimes I need the dictionary to find the real meaning of some words, and there are many word that has different meaning eve in English. For example, ( taken from "Oxford")
-1: JAM ....Squeeze;(cause to) become wedged..etc.
2: JAM.....Conserve of fruit...
-1: SCALE...Relative dimensions, ratio of reduction or enlargment...
2: SCALE...Tartar on teeth...skin of many reptiles an fishes...
3: SCALE...Weighing-instrument....
Translation done by persons who are fully knowlegable with thier language but not in the others. For ex. Arabic who try to translate an English literature, or vice-versa, for sure he will not be able to brig the story100% as the original. But there will be more wrong in giving the exact translation when it done by a third party, for ex. An "URDU" speaking person is going to traslate Arabic to English or vice-versa.
As an Arabic speaking , it s easy for me to find the mitakes in translation, for ex. the word "JIBAL" which any Arabic knows that it means, "MOUNTAINS", But it was translated wrong as "HILLS", and Hill in Arabic is "TALLAT".
- At the time of the coming of those messages their dictionary of words are very limited. and the prophets spoke the words which people has knowledge of and can understand.
The words "GALAXY"and "UNIVERSE", and thousands others are added through the years with the growing of knowledge.
The word "SAMA'A" or pl. "SAMAWAT", means the unlimited space above the earth "SKY" or SKYS", and it is equal to the term we use today as "UNIVERSE". But most of the translators, translate the "SAMAWAT" as the "HEAVENS", and that is wrong, because HEAVENS in Arabic called "JANNAT". (Jannat and Jahim= Heavens and hell.)
You said, "Muslims tell me ".
- Even with some mistakes in translation, still the words In the Quran give you the truth, and if you think that you did not understand a word or verse the best thing is to go to those who speak Arabic an with good knowledge, and not just to any Muslin, that is if you seeking the truth.
You said" "verses of Quran can have many different meanings."
A word might have different meanings as I explained before, but the meaning of the word becomes clear when put in a complete sentence or verse. except if it came as parable.
In All the holy books there are examples, that might come to reffer to something else (parable). In Luke13:5 "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish." then after came the story of the fig-tree, (L13:6/7)
then in (13:8) we read: "And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig aroud it and put in fertilizer."*
* Now, while I am checking the story of the fig tree which I remember, I find out that the same story is completely different, between from what I found in the (NET), King James Bible, (search the Bible), and in my NASB new testament !!!.
I brought up all that just to mention to you that what it meant here not the fig tree itself, and this parable has a much wider meanings that might cover many other aspect in the real life of people.
I took 2 Hrs. brake to watch a decomentery on NG about Judas Gospel, and when they brought many acts that shows Jesus talking to the disciples in a language (Aramaic or Hebrew. i have no idea), but many words said are similar in the Arabic, but I was surprised to hear the word "ALLAH" said by Jesus, and the subtitle in English was "GOD". All that because I thought the word "ELI" which been mentioned by the Gospels is what Jesus called God:
from Aramaic/Hebrew :"Eli, Eli, lama sabachtani!". in Arabic "Allah, Allah lema (lemaza), sibtani!", or in English, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me!"
So the Christian who believe that "Allah" is the God of Muslims only (as been taught) the are wrong, because "Allah" the God of Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, but God or Diew and many other they were used by the Roman and for their others God, Ex. Jupiter, the God of Gods, and Bachous the God of wine etc..
Whatever name you use if you believe in it, and you mean by it the creator, the Holy Spirit, and the Almighty, who is in heaven is OK, because they are His names if not attached with anything else.
Note: Please help me in finding the origin of the words "SLI" & "ALLAH" and if the are Hebrew or Aramaic. many thanks.
God bless you.
Name:Eagle •
Date: 04/08/07 20:34
A: Perceptions, and others interested:
Your questions and comments about Allah and El or Eli sent me to the wikipedia site for more information. I found there a wealth of details about the names, including a discussion of how Elohim and Allah are related. Go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elohim for more information.
It is interesting to note that Elohim is plural, but often used with singular verbs to show a group (like when we say "the group is going to the movies" instead of "the gorup are going to movies". El or Eli is singular. If Jesus is God (singular), why was he speaking to himself from the cross? And, if El is God, why/how could he forsake himself?
The traditional Catholic/Christian view of the trinity is so confusing. Three Gods in one. God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. Anyone have any comments about that plurality?
Name:Perceptions •
Date: 04/08/07 21:59
A: Interesting aurguments by Sam, and Eagle!
I would like to add something to this understanding.
Does it make any DIFFERENCE, if it's said that "The PEOPLE are coming" or The CROWD is coming" even if one is plural and the other is singular!
The better example , that might be more suitable in this case , could be WATER , it's usually referred as WATER in a glass, WATER on the table, WATER in the river, etc............
...or may be FIRE, similarly where, quantity does NOT apply.
So GOD is A GOD in the above sense.
I'm taught that the word Allah, is like ILAH, which means the ONE, who is the ONLY ONE ,to be worthy of being worshipped!
It would be helpful to visit the link below. You could check the ARABIC WORD for GOD, by printing.
A: roy,
This is your question.
"A- I wonder if you really not atached to any religion? B- Do you have any doubts about verses, if I may ask. C- Can you share if I can support with my ideas? "
--------------------------------
As for A.
- By believing in Allah as ONE GOD, and believing in His Angels, and believing in all His messages (the holy books*), and all His prophets, and submiting myself to His will, I became a believer in Islam.
- The main purpose for God messages from the first prophet until the last is to believe in Him as the only God and follow His laws. The same in all religions, but people make their own religions by adding to it their own thoughts and creations.
- The Bible was written by people, and they added their own stories which has a lot of family and personal stories, and stories about the creation which are false and cannot be accepted in today's facts or logics. And burning most of the gospels (around 26) and keeping only four, is an act which can leave many question unaswered. besides, the gospels left, there are many stories within that cannot be trusted or accepted logically and others which won't agree to each other, and while the words of Jesus represent the truth, I found that some of His words changed ( one bible Jesus says: "THE SON OF MAN" in another "SON OF GOD" !!!, and I can call that a FORGERY. The discoveries of Nag-Hamadi books and the gospel of Judas plus many others, create a big shock for the churches and their followers, and the debates started. When there is dibates about something, it comes the uncertainty, and that will lead to the doubt. A faith or a believe system which has daubt in it, cannot be accepted. Retired bishop John S. Spong wrote:
While the Bible and the Gospels presented by many books, the Quran is only one book, and nothing been attached to it not even the words of the prophet Muhammad, and the words in the Quran never changed, it is now the same as when it was written 1400 years ago. There are no Myth stories, and all what it came in it can be accepted logically, besides, the Quran brought a lot of information, which was not known until recently, for example, "the expanding universe" & "that the earth and the moon and all heavenly bodies in the sky (universe) are going in an orbit". Those only two can make a person wonder How can thing said many centuries ago came to be right in 20th centureies!!!. There is only one who knows such information, and it is the one who created it.
Now as for the question, if I am atached to any religion, the answer is Yes. I am atached now to Islam only, but I will never be atached to any sect or group ar party, those who call themselves Muslims. (I will explain that later on).
As for B: After reading the Quran and the Gospels and the Bible and many times, I have no doubt about the authenticity of the Quran and it represents the words of God. and it is for sure a holy book.
I hope what I brought in this poste will be an answer to your question C, and I would like to exchange many other ideas if you like.
God bless you.
Name:roy •
Date: 04/09/07 10:04
A: Eagle,
I encounter your questions ,
“The traditional Catholic/Christian view of the trinity is so confusing. Three Gods in one. God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. Anyone have any comments about that plurality? “
I wrote the article below:
Christian Claim: That Jesus was the Son of God and was resurrected on the third day are two things that I do believe.
Roy Wrote:
There is one and only one God. Prophets ,including Adam Enoch Noah Eber Shelah Abraham Lot Ishmael Isaac Jacob Joseph Job Jethro Moses Aaron Ezekiel David Solomon Elijah Elisha Jonah Zechariah John Jesus and Mohammed were His slaves and prophets among whom we accept no prerogative of any sort. He made the books to be understood easily by common man, improved rules in each consequtive book as the man improves. He wants us to obey the one religion brought & implemented by prophets ~ as sample living humans. Is there anything unfair or complex in this?
God forgives all sins except heretics of trinity.Atributing Him human traits, like to have a son.Then who is the mother God? Mary? Was Abrahams wife Sarai also a goddess having child at old ages? Was Zecharias’s wife as well a goddess? What about Adams creation, is he also Son of God? In translation of Aramaic written original bible into Latin has been distorted by saying “slave and servant of God” they put “son of man~son of God”.It refers not only to Jesus in these bible traslations but it refers all human kind. But man made interpretations has singled out name to Jesus only. Trias is strictly forbidden in Islam and said is the continuous pitfall in all previous religions, often lured many believers. It holds the same danger for muslims loving too much of anchestors, priests, or prophets to make them equal or germane in ranking to God. Even asking a wish from those deities are biggest sin committed against God. He warns in hundreds of verses of Quran and Bible to avoid this pitfall or else you wont be forgiven. (Killing may be forgiven but deity worshipping not.) So please be ware of this threat from God and check your books better.I put proofs above. True Christianity never offered equal deity to God. Christ was praying to God for help, why should he have done, if He had been a god himself? Jesus never said pray to me, ask from me. Please check the above Bible verses starting with One God
Saying God is three in one context but, One made up of three, no one can realise what is going on… How is three agree on ruling on universe that there is no disagreement between them? If God decides to extinct Jesus and Virgin Mary who will stop Him from it? How three in spiritual and matter decided to come together to send somepart of three among those miniscule sized peasants and didnt guess one piece of God will be killed there by torture?
Christian Church claims The gospels, most especially John, indicate that Christ was not taken because the "peasants" (actually the temple guard and probably some Roman soldiers as well) over powered Him, but because He went to his death willingly. “
Guard, soldier ect.. has no difference than peasant comparing with God as former are made up all from human. No matter what is the position of human ~ temple guard or Roman soldiers or even todays atomic powered soldiers may not possibly over power even small evidence of God let alone God himself.
God does not need peoples recognition of the latest versions of what He says. That’s why He says keep your own faith as Christian or Jew but don’t commit sin of Trinity or false claims against Me or Jesus because I am the only One. He does not accept religions from those who curses Him in that Trias way, and will not forgive those (only sin NOT to be forgiven) .
If the trias is not accepted at Byzantene time Council 300 AD. It would have been less likely to get acceptance by plural gods greek society of that time and would have been difficult to unite them. Imperialism was on the scene that time, not now.
On the other hand if Church hasnt defend their position strongly against other religions, there would have been no reason of existence of them and the priests and kings had to give up huge wealth and power over society. The latter religion forbids any devine class, rabbis, or super powered ruler, not to mention some papacy who claim to be the shadow and replica of God on earth! (another form of Imperialism)
Christian Claim: Jesus' purpose in coming to earth was to offer the perfect, one-time sacrifice on the cross for the remission of our sins.
Roy Wrote:
In logic, and all modern justice system, there is one simple rule, noone may be hold responsible or punished for others crimes.
Even someone says “I want to atone for other person” (mother to son, son to father, lover to lover) do you accept it? Why God should?
On the other hand why human must have a sin as prerequisite and if had, not be able to save himself / herself by prayer? Or if will be saved by atonement of Jesus eventually, why to care to be a better person not commit sins?
Whichever perspective you look at the made-up belief by Byzantene ruler and council of yours, is misleading.
Wasnt there any other way to save people from sins rather to sacrifice one piece of God? How was it done before Christ (are they only comunity to be saved as majority of jews also claim as favored nation)? One of gods gave up divine and such sort of things are just fables from the Greek mythology. Is there any thema difference in stories with Zeus who hypothetically lived on Olympos, some other god had stolen fire from him, and such nonsence and complex stories. (Some Greeks gave rebirth a new religion on that belief and ask recognition by parliament in Greece today.)
“Going to his death willingly” is another made-up story. Too unlogical to be devine. All science, philosophy, antropology, history, logic, nature, biolgy, cosmology, physics, theology (christianity except this incident) strives the essence of existance not extinction, natural selection, wish of living - not dieing.
On the contrary Christ must ask God to live on to save his people by preaching (He lived and won over non believers~Islamic view, otherwise no christians would have been mentioned today~my opinion). Moses, and Abraham has been saved by God with two miracles ( Red sea divide and fire becoming serene.)
If our prophet does something “going to his death willingly” we must wish the same thing as good followers. Why don’t you dare to wish some unlogical thing then?;
We will all go death willingly to save others!!
I hope it helps the claims of Jesus was a dieable, marryable, child conceive causable and tomb burriable (yet to be proven) human with flesh and blood created by God’s word to Mary.
I keep saying that Quran was not changed even a word, but may have been influenced by several translators and their cultures minimally. Quran witnesses same doctrine with old and new testament, pointing to the same God sent them.
Mohammad’s teaching were unlike any other books, memorized by hundreds of muslims systematicaly and diligently. The simple words of him Hadiths were forbidden to be written or recorded in order prevent mess up with revelations.
Records of bible were not kept in order and deliberately distorted. However muslims believe the original is kept by God and it is true that it was given to Jesus.
There are too many proofs that Bible was edited, added many false claims, manupulated according to politics, finally diverted from its true path. Muslims hadiths books were similar in their destiny. They were overly biased, lies alleged to Mohammad (sas) added, religion overburdened with unnecessary hardships, bigotry, bidat (added ruling, principles).
They took their toll to the extent that, they claimed Mohammad, as the imam of all prophets, for whom the earth was created for. In one hadith they claim he went several times between God and Moses to reduce repetition of prayer in a day from 50 times down to five times. It was claimed on some occasions inspired by christian faith, God had shank (God forbid! Never).
Early Christian belief was too much different than todays versions. I put down the historic events and different sects of Christians, some still in effect today, which have been very close to Muslim version of religion. It shows only one truth that God has sent several prophets, prescribing same religion at basic concepts ,ie.. pray one God only, give charity, not kill or commit adultry, etc.. I hope this will give a secular insight to our beliefs.
Roy’s script: Please bear in mind that the notes were written according to Biblical names, here Jesus was referred as son instead of prophet, many times. (it is misleading attribute as the true meaning should be God slave and Messenger according to muslim faith.)
NONTRINITARIANISM
Nontrinitarianism is any of various Christian beliefs that reject the doctrine that God is three distinct persons in one being, (the Trinity).
The notion of the Trinity is not of particular importance to most nontrinitarians. Persons and groups espousing this position generally do not refer to themselves affirmatively by the term, although some nontrinitarian groups such as the Unitarians have adopted a name that bespeaks of their belief in God as subsisting in a theological or cosmic unity. Modern nontrinitarian groups views differ widely on the nature of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.
Various nontrinitarian views, such as Arianism, existed alongside what is now considered mainstream Christianity before the Trinity was formally defined as doctrine in AD 325. Nontrinitarianism was very rare for hundreds of years. It surfaced again in the Gnosticism of the Cathars and in the Enlightenment and Restorationism.
Forms of Nontrinitarianism
ALL NONTRINITARIANS ARGUE THAT THE DOCTRINE OF THE EARLIEST FORM OF THE CHURCH WAS NOT TRINITARIAN. Typically, nontrinitarians explain that the Church was altered as a direct and indirect consequence of the edicts of Constantine the Great, which resulted in toleration of the Christian religion, and the eventual adoption of Trinitarian Christianity as the official religion of the Roman Empire. Because it was at this time of a dramatic shift in Christianity's status that the doctrine of the Trinity attained its definitive development, nontrinitarians typically find the development of the doctrine questionable. It is in this light that the Nicene Creed is seen by nontrinitarians as an essentially political document, resulting from the subordination of Church to State interests by the leaders of Catholic Church, so that the Church became, in their view, an extension of the Roman Empire.
Although Nontrinitarian beliefs of a great variety continued to multiply, and among some people (such as the Lombards in the West) it was dominant for hundreds of years afterward, the Trinitarians now had the immense power of the Empire behind them. NONTRINITARIANS TYPICALLY ARGUE THAT THE PRIMITIVE BELIEFS OF THE CHURCH WERE SYSTEMATICALLY SUPPRESSED (EVEN TO THE POINT OF DEATH), AND THAT THE HISTORICAL RECORD, PERHAPS ALSO INCLUDING THE SCRIPTURES OF THE NEW TESTAMENT, WAS ALTERED AS A CONSEQUENCE.
Nontrinitarian followers of Jesus fall into roughly four different groups.
• Some believe that Jesus is not God, instead believing that he was a messenger from God, or Prophet, or the perfect created human. This is the view espoused by modern day Unitarianism and ancient sects such as the Ebionites. A specific form of Nontrinitarianism is Arianism, which had become the dominant view in some regions in the time of the Roman Empire. Arianism taught the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit but held that the Son was not co-eternal with the Father. However, Arians did not consider worship of Jesus as wrong.[citation needed] Another early form of Nontrinarianism was Monarchianism.
• Others believe that the one God who revealed himself in the Old Testament as Jehovah revealed himself in his Son, Jesus Christ. This is a doctrine known originally as Sabellianism or modalism, although it is explained somewhat differently in the churches which hold these beliefs today. Examples of such churches today are Oneness Pentecostals and the New Church.
• Several denominations within Mormonism (including the largest, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) accept the divinity of Jesus, but believe the three persons of the Trinity to be separate. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints specifically holds that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three separate and distinct individuals (D&C 130:22), but can and do act together in perfect unity as a single monotheistic entity (the "Godhead") for the common purpose of saving mankind, Jesus Christ having received divine investiture of authority from Heavenly Father in the pre-existence.
• Several denominations within the Sabbatarian Church of God and certain groups within Seventh-day Adventism accept the divinity of the Father and Jesus the Son, but do not teach that the Holy Spirit is a Being. The Living Church of God, for example, teaches, "The Holy Spirit is the very essence, the mind, life and power of God. It is not a Being. The Spirit is inherent in the Father and the Son, and emanates from Them throughout the entire universe". This view has historically been termed Semi-Arianism or Binitarianism.
kingdomready.org/topics/god.php
[ GOD IS 1 NOT 3 ]
Only the Father, Yahweh, is God. Jesus is the Son of God, His only begotten Son, the Messiah. The Bible emphatically and repeatedly sets forth Yahweh's supremacy and exclusivity. There are no other gods besides Him. God is all powerful, everywhere present, immortal, invisible, and all knowing. He did not become a man, His word (reason, intent, plan, self-expression) did. Jesus is the perfect human who always did what God wanted done and always spoke what God wanted said. In fact, it was Jesus who said that the Father is the only one who is truly God (John 17.3). Paul likewise confessed belief in a single deity when he said, "Yet, for us there is but one God, the Father...and one Lord, Jesus Christ..." (1 Corinthians 8.6). Below are resources that aim to describe what the Bible teaches not the philosophies of men.
Origins and basis for Nontrinitarianism
Nontrinitarians claim the roots of their position go back farther than those of their counterpart Trinitarians. The biblical basis for each side of the issue is debated chiefly on the question of the divinity of Jesus. Nontrinitarians note that in deference to God, Jesus rejected even being called "good", that he disavowed omniscience as the Son,[1] and that he referred to ascending unto "my Father, and to your Father; and to my God, and to your God", and that he said "the Father is the only true God." Additionally, Jesus quoted Deuteronomy 6:4 when saying in Mark 12:29 "The most important one (commandment)," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one."
Siding with nontrinitarians, scholars investigating the historical Jesus often assert that Jesus taught neither his own equality with God nor the Trinity (see, for example, the Jesus Seminar). Jesus Seminar is a research team of about 135 New Testament scholars founded in 1985 by the late Robert Funk and John Dominic Crossan under the auspices of the Westar Institute.[1][2] The seminar's purpose is to use historical methods to determine what Jesus, as a historical figure, may or may not have said or done. In addition, the seminar popularizes research into the historical Jesus. The public is welcome to attend the twice-yearly meetings. They produced new translations of the New Testament plus the Gospel of Thomas to use as textual sources. They published their results in three reports The Five Gospels (1993),[3] The Acts of Jesus (1998),[4] and The Gospel of Jesus (1999).[5] They also run a series of lectures and workshops in various U.S. cities.
The text of the Nicene Creed and the Trinity state that the three are "coequal". This is the term actually used in the Doctrine. One might consider co-owners of a business as being equal owners but with different roles to play in operating the business. But nontrinitarians point to a very important statement by Jesus that contradicts the use of the term equal or "coequal". It is a simple passage where Jesus stated his explicit subordinance to the Father: "for my Father is Greater than I(John 14:28)."
In addition, the Trinity and the Nicene Creed were doctrines established over 300 years after the time of Christ on Earth as a result of conflict within the early Church. It is curious to note that Jesus had forewarned the reader in Matthew "beware the doctrines of men".
Some nontrinitarians accept that Scripture teaches Christ is divine in some sense, and the son of God, but deny the personality of the Holy Spirit.
Main Points of Dissent
1. The Trinity as being irrational
Criticism of the doctrine includes the argument that its "mystery" is essentially an inherent irrationality, where the persons of God are claimed to share completely a single divine substance, the "being of God", and yet not partake of each others' identity. It is also pointed out that many polytheistic pre-Christian religions arranged many of their gods in trinities, and that this doctrine may been promoted by Church leaders to make Christendom more acceptable to surrounding cultures.
2. Possible lack of Scriptural support
The New Catholic Encyclopedia, for example, says, "The doctrine of the Holy Trinity is not taught [explicitly] in the [Old Testament]"[14], "The formulation 'one God in three Persons' was not solidly established [by a council]...prior to the end of the 4th century"[15], and The Columbia Electronic Encyclopedia adds, "The doctrine is not explicitly taught in the New Testament". The question, however, of why such a supposedly central doctrine to the Christian faith would never have been explicitly stated in scripture or taught in detail by Jesus himself was sufficiently important to 16th century historical figures such as Michael Servetus as to lead them to argue the question. The Geneva City Council, in accord with the judgment of the cantons of Zürich, Bern, Basel, and Schaffhausen, condemned Servetus to be burned at the stake for this, and for his opposition to infant baptism.
3. Divinity of Jesus
For some, debate over the biblical basis of the doctrine tends to revolve chiefly over the question of the deity of Jesus (see Christology). Those who reject the divinity of Jesus argue among other things that Jesus rejected being called so little as good in deference to God (versus "the Father") , disavowed omniscience as the Son, "learned obedience" , and referred to ascending unto "my Father, and to your Father; and to my God, and to your God" .
They also dispute that "Elohim" denotes plurality, noting that this name in nearly all circumstances takes a singular verb and arguing that where it seems to suggest plurality, Hebrew grammar still indicates against it. They also point to statements by Jesus such as his declaration that the Father was greater than he or that he was not omniscient, in his statement that of a final day and hour not even he knew, but the Father , and to Jesus' being called the firstborn of creation and 'the beginning of God's creation,' which argues against his being eternal.
In Theological Studies #26 (1965) p.545-73, Does the NT call Jesus God?, Raymond E. Brown wrote that there are "texts that seem to imply that the title God was not used for Jesus" and are "negative evidence which is often somewhat neglected in Catholic treatments of the subject."
Trinitarians, and some non-Trinitarians such as the Modalists who also hold to the divinity of Jesus Christ, claim that these statements are based on the fact that Jesus existed as the Son of God in human flesh. Thus he is both God and man, who became "lower than the angels, for our sake" and who was tempted as humans are tempted, but did not sin .
Some Nontrinitarians counter the belief that the Son was limited only during his earthly life (Trinitarians believe, instead, that Christ retains full human nature even after his resurrection), by citing ("the head of Christ [is] God" [KJV]), written after Jesus had returned to Heaven, thus placing him still in an inferior relation to the Father. Additionally, they claim that Jesus became exalted after ascension to Heaven, and regarding Jesus as a distinct personality in Heaven, all after his ascension.
4. Possible un-Biblical terminology
Christian Unitarians, Restorationists, and others question the doctrine of the Trinity because it relies on non-Biblical terminology. The term "Trinity" is not found in scripture and the number three is never associated with God in any sense other than within the Comma Johanneum. Detractors hold that the only number ascribed to God in the Bible is One and that the Trinity, literally meaning three-in-one, ascribes a threeness to God that is not Biblical.
5. Many scriptural citations lack the Holy Spirit
It is also argued that the vast majority of scriptures that Trinitarians offer in support of their beliefs refer to the Father and to Jesus, but not to the Holy Spirit. This suggests that the concept of the trinity was not well-established in the early Christian community.
6. Whether it is truly monotheistic or not
The teaching is also pivotal to inter-religious disagreements with two of the other major faiths, Judaism and Islam; the former reject Jesus' divine mission entirely, the latter accepts Jesus as a human prophet just like Muhammad but rejects altogether the deity of Jesus. Many within Judaism and Islam also accuse Christian Trinitarians of practicing polytheism, of believing in three gods rather than just one. Islam holds that because Allah is unique and absolute (the concept of tawhid) the Trinity is impossible and has even been condemned as polytheistic. This is emphasized in the Qur'an which states "He (Allah) does not beget, nor is He begotten, And (there is) none like Him." (Qur'an, 112:3-4)
Scriptural texts cited as implying opposition
Among Bible verses cited by opponents of Trinitarianism are those that claim there is only one God, the Father. Other verses state that Jesus Christ was a man. Trinitarians explain these apparent contradictions by reference to the mystery and paradox of the Trinity itself. This is a partial list of verses implying opposition to Trinitarianism:
One God
• Matthew 4:10: "Jesus said to him, 'Away from me, Satan! For it is written: "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."'"
• John 17:3: "Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."
• 1Corinthians 8:5-6: "For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live."
• 1Timothy 2:5: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"
The Son is subordinate to the Father
• Mark 13:32:"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."
• John 5:19: "Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does."
• John 14:28: "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."
• John 17:20-23: "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."
• Colossians 1:15: "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation."
• 1stCorinthians 15:24-28: "Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all."
Jesus is not the old testament God
• John 2:16: And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
• Acts 3:13: The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up...
• John 20:17: Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.
• Daniel 7:13: I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
• Psalms 110:1: Jehovah saith unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, Until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Ontological Differences Between "God" and Jesus
• John 17:1-3 Jesus prays to God.
• Hebrews 2:17,18 Hebrews 3:2 Jesus has faith in God.
• Acts 3:13 Jesus is a servant of God.
• Mark 13:32 Revelation 1:1 Jesus does not know things God knows.
• John 4:22 Jesus worships God.
• Revelation 3:12 Jesus has one who is God to him.
• 1stCorinthians 15:28 Jesus is in subjection to God.
• 1stCorinthians 11:1 Jesus' head is God.
• Hebrews 5:7 Jesus has reverent submission, fear, of God.
• Acts 2:36 Jesus is given lordship by God.
• Acts 5:31 Jesus is exalted by God.
• Hebrews 5:10 Jesus is made high priest by God.
• Philippians 2:9 Jesus is given aurthority by God.
• Luke 1:32,33 Jesus is given kingship by God.
• Acts 10:42 Jesus is given judgment by God.
• Acts 2:24, Romans 10.9, 1 Cor 15:15 "God raised [Jesus] from the dead".
• Mark 16:19, Luke 22:69, Acts 2:33, Romans 8:34 Jesus is at the right hand of God.
• 1 Tim 2:5 Jesus is the one human mediator between the one God and man.
• 1 Cor 15:24-28 God put everything, except Himself, under Jesus.
Alternate views to the Trinity
There have been numerous other views of the relations of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit; the most prominent include:
• Arius believed that the Son was subordinate to the Father, firstborn of all Creation. However, the Son did have Divine status. This view is very close to that of Jehovah's Witnesses.
• Ebionites believed that the Son was subordinate to the Father and nothing more than a special human.
• Marcion believed that there were two Deities, one of Creation / Hebrew Bible and one of the New Testament.
• Modalism states that God has taken numerous forms in both the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament, and that God has manifested Himself in three primary modes in regards to the salvation of mankind.
• Swedenborgianism holds that the Trinity exists in One Person, the Lord God Jesus Christ. The Father, the Being or soul of God, was born into the world and put on a body from Mary.
• The Urantia Book teaches that God is the first "Uncaused Cause" who is a personality that is omniscient, omnipresent, transcendent, infinite, eternal and omnipotent, but He is also a person of the Original Trinity - "The Paradise Trinity" who are the "First Source and Center, Second Source and Center, and Third Source and Center" or otherwise described as "God, The Eternal Son, and The Divine Holy Spirit".
• The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, aka "Mormons," hold that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three separate and distinct individuals (Covenant 130:22), but can and do act together in perfect unity as a single monotheistic entity (the "Godhead") for the common purpose of saving mankind, Jesus Christ having received divine investiture of authority from Heavenly Father in the pre-existence.
• Docetism comes from the Greek: δοκηο (doceo), meaning "to seem." This view holds that Jesus only seemed to be human and only appeared to die.
• Adoptionism holds that Jesus was chosen on the event of his baptism to be anointed by the Holy Spirit and became divine upon resurrection.
• Rastafarians accept Haile Selassie I, the former (and last) emperor of Ethiopia, as Jah (the Rasta name for God incarnate, from a shortened form of Jehovah found in Psalms 68:4 in the King James Version of the Bible), and part of the Holy Trinity as the messiah promised to return in the Bible.
• Islam's Holy Book, the Quran, denounces the concept of Trinity (Qur'an 4:171, 5:72-73, 112:1-4), also in nonstandard forms, a Trinity composed of Father, Son and Mary (Qur'an 5:116). Inclusion of Mary in the presumed trinity may have been due to either a quasi-Christian sect known as the Collyridians in Arabia who apparently believed that Mary was divine, or use of the title "Mother of God" to refer to Mary.
Theory of pagan origin and influence
Nontrinitarian Christians have long contended that the doctrine of the Trinity is a prime example of Christian borrowing from pagan sources. According to this view, a simpler idea of God was lost very early in the history of the Church, through accommodation to pagan ideas, and the "incomprehensible" doctrine of the Trinity took its place. As evidence of this process, a comparison is often drawn between the Trinity and notions of a divine triad, found in pagan religions and Hinduism. Hinduism has a triad, i.e., Trimurti.
Some find a direct link between the doctrine of the Trinity, and the Egyptian theologians of Alexandria, for example. They suggest that Alexandrian theology, with its strong emphasis on the deity of Christ, was an intermediary between the Egyptian religious heritage and Christianity.
Nontrinitarians assert that Catholics must have recognized the pagan roots of the trinity, because the allegation of borrowing was raised by some disputants during the time that the Nicene doctrine was being formalized and adopted by the bishops. For example, in the 4th century Catholic Bishop Marcellus of Ancyra's writings, On the Holy Church,9 :
Such a late date for a key term of Nicene Christianity, and attributed to a Gnostic, they believe, lends credibility to the charge of pagan borrowing. Marcellus was rejected by the Catholic Church for teaching a form of Sabellianism.
The early apologists, including Justin Martyr, Tertullian and Irenaeus, frequently discussed the parallels and contrasts between Christianity and the pagan and syncretic religions, and answered charges of borrowing from paganism in their apologetical writings.
Hellenic influences on Christian thought
Advocates of the "Hellenic origins" argument consider it well supported by primary sources. They see these sources as tracing the influence of Philo on post-Apostolic Christian philosophers - many of them ex-pagan Hellenic philosophers - who then interpreted Scripture through the Neoplatonic filter of their original beliefs and subsequently incorporated those interpretations into their theology. The early synthesis between Hellenic philosophy and early Christianity was certainly made easier by the fact that so many of the earliest apologists (such as Athenagoras and Justin Martyr) were Greek converts themselves, whose original beliefs had consisted more of philosophy than religion.
Controversy over Nontrinitarianism's Status
Most nontrinitarians identify themselves as Christian. In this regard The Encyclopedia Britannica states, "To some Christians the doctrine of the Trinity appeared inconsistent with the unity of God....They therefore denied it, and accepted Jesus Christ, not as incarnate God, but as God's highest creature by Whom all else was created....[this] view in the early Church long contended with the orthodox doctrine."This view (nonrtinitarian) “in the early church”, still supported by some Christians, generates controversy among mainstream Christians. Most members of mainstream Christianity considered it heresy not to believe in the Trinity.
Although some denominations require their members to profess faith in the trinity, most mainline denominations have taken a "hands-off" policy on the subject of the trinity, realizing that since personal study and free thought have been encouraged for years, it is not surprising that some of the conclusions reached would be nontrinitarian. The recognition here is that the trinity is tool for pointing to a greater truth. In other words, Christianity has historically sought to look beyond its doctrines (see Apophasis) to the greater truth they are intended to address, IE God. It is not uncommon for a Methodist, Presbyterian, or Anglican to profess non-trinitarian views, even among the clergy. The response from the governing bodies of those denominations is usually neutral, so long as the disagreement is voiced in respect.
Nontrinitarian Christian groups
• American Unitarian Conference
• Arian Catholicism
• Arianism
• Bible Students
• Christadelphians
• Christian Conventions a non-denominational group which publishes no dogmatic positions, but which a majority of observers classify as non-Trinitarian
• Church of Christ, Scientist
• Church of God General Conference (Abrahamic Faith)
• Church of the Blessed Hope (Church of God of the Abrahamic Faith)
• Creation Seventh Day Adventism
• Doukhobors
• Higher Ground Online
• Jehovah's Witnesses
• Living Church of God
• Living Hope International Ministries
• Molokan
• Monarchianism
• New Church
• Oneness Pentecostals
• Polish Brethren
• Socinianism
• The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church; see also Mormon)
• The Way International
• Unification Church
• Unitarian Christians
• Unitarian Universalist Christian Fellowship
• Iglesia ni Cristo
• True Jesus Church
Nontrinitarian people
• Natalius, ~200
• Sabellius, ~220
• Paul of Samosata, 269
• Arius, 336
• Eusebius of Nicomedia, 341, baptized Constantine
• Constantius II, Byzantine Emperor, 361
• Antipope Felix II, 365
• Aëtius, 367
• Ulfilas, Apostle to the Goths, 383
• Priscillian, 385, considered first Christian to be executed for heresy
• Muhammad, 632, see also Isa
• Ludwig Haetzer, 1529
• Juan de Valdés, 1541
• Michael Servetus, 1553, burned at the stake in Geneva under John Calvin
• Sebastian Castellio, 1563
• Ferenc Dávid, 1579
• Fausto Paolo Sozzini, 1604
• John Biddle, 1662
• Thomas Aikenhead, 1697, last person to be hanged for blasphemy in Britain
• John Locke, 1704
• Isaac Newton, 1727
• William Whiston, 1752, expelled from University of Cambridge in 1710
• Jonathan Mayhew, 1766
• Emanuel Swedenborg, 1772
• Benjamin Franklin, 1790
• Joseph Priestley, 1804
• Joseph Smith, 1805
• Thomas Paine, 1809
• Thomas Jefferson, 1826
• James Madison, 1836
• William Ellery Channing, 1842
• Robert Hibbert, 1849
• John Thomas (Christadelphian), 1871
• Ralph Waldo Emerson, 1882
• Benjamin Wilson, 18??
• James Martineau, 1900
• Charles Taze Russell, 1916
• Neville Chamberlain, 1940
• William Branham, 1965
• Herbert W. Armstrong, 1986
UNİTARİANİSM
Unitarianism is the belief in the oneness of God opposed to the Christian doctrine of the Trinity (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in one God). Unitarians believe in the moral authority, but not the deity, of Jesus.
Unitarianism as a system of Christian thought and religious observance has its basis, as opposed to that of orthodox Trinitarianism, in the unipersonality of the Christian Godhead, i.e. in the idea that the Godhead exists in the person of the Father alone. Unitarians trace their history back to the Apostolic age, claim for their doctrine a prevalence during the ante-Nicene period. A small number of Unitarians claim a continuity through Arian communities and individual thinkers to the present time.
ARİANİSM
God the Father ("unbegotten"), always existing, was separate from the lesser Jesus Christ ("only-begotten"), born before time began and creator of the world. The Father, working through the Son, created the Holy Spirit, who was subservient to the Son as the Son was to the Father. The Father was seen as "the only true God."
Arianism refers to the theological positions made famous by the theologian Arius (c. 250-336 AD), who lived and taught in Alexandria, Egypt, in the early 4th century. The controversial teachings of Arius dealt with the relationship between God the Father and the person of Jesus Christ, a relationship known as the doctrine of the Trinity.
While Arianism continued to dominate for several decades even within the family of the Emperor, the Imperial nobility and higher ranking clergy, in the end it was Trinitarianism which prevailed theologically and politically in the Roman Empire at the end of the fourth century. Arianism, which had been taught by the Arian missionary Ulfilas to the Germanic tribes, was dominant for some centuries among several Germanic tribes in western Europe, especially Goths and Longobards, but ceased to be the mainstream belief by the 8th Century AD. Trinitarianism remained the dominant doctrine in all major branches of the Eastern and Western Church and within Protestantism, although there have been several anti-trinitarian movements, some of which acknowledge various similarities to classical Arianism.
ANOMOEAN
In 4th century Christianity, the Anomœans, also known as Anomeans, Heterousians, Aetians, or Eunomians, were a sect of Arians who asserted that Jesus Christ (the Son) was of a different nature and in no way like to that of God (the Father).
The word is from Greek α(ν)- 'not' and όμοίος 'similar' i.e. "different; dissimilar".
In the 4th century, this was the name by which the followers of Aëtius and Eunomius were distinguished; they not only denied the consubstantiality of Jesus but even asserted that he was of a nature different from that of God. This was in contradistinction to the semi-Arians, who indeed denied the consubstantiality of Jesus, but believed at the same time that he was like the Father.
ARİANİSM İN THE EARLY MEDİEVAL GERMANİC KİNGDOMS
During the time of Arianism's flowering in Constantinople, the Gothic convert Ulfilas (later the subject of the letter of Auxentius cited above) was sent as a missionary to the Gothic barbarians across the Danube, a mission favored for political reasons by emperor Constantius II. Ulfilas' initial success in converting this Germanic people to an Arian form of Christianity was strengthened by later events. When the Germanic peoples entered the Roman Empire and founded successor-kingdoms in the western part, most had been Arian Christians for more than a century.
The conflict in the 4th century had seen Arian and Nicene factions struggling for control of the Church. In contrast, in the Arian German kingdoms established on the wreckage of the Western Roman Empire in the 5th century, there were entirely separate Arian and Nicene Churches with parallel hierarchies, each serving different sets of believers. The Germanic elites were Arians, and the majority population Nicene.
The Franks were unique among the Germanic peoples in that they entered the empire as pagans and converted to Nicene Christianity directly.
"ARİAN" AS A POLEMİCAL EPITHET
Like the Arians, many groups have embraced the belief that Jesus is not the one God, but a separate being subordinate to the Father, and that Jesus at one time did not exist. Some of these profess, as the Arians did, that God made all things through the pre-existent Christ. Some profess that Jesus became divine, through exaltation, just as the Arians believed. Drawing a parallel between these groups and Arians can be useful for distinguishing a type of unbelief in the Trinity.
Those whose religious beliefs have been compared to or labeled as Arianism include:
*Unitarians, who believe that God is one as opposed to a Trinity, and many of whom believe in the moral authority, but not the deity, of Jesus. Arianism is considered to be an antecedent of Unitarian Universalism.
*Jehovah's Witnesses, who do have some similar beliefs to Arius, namely, that Jesus had a pre-human existence as the Logos. However, Arius viewed the Holy Spirit as a person, whereas Jehovah's Witnesses do not attribute personality to the spirit. Jehovah's Witnesses also, unlike Arians, deny belief in a disembodied soul after death, eternal punishment in hell for the unrepentantly wicked, and episcopacy.
*Christadelphians, along with the Church of the Blessed Hope, believe that Jesus' pre-natal existence was a conceptual Logos, rather than a literal Logos.
*Mormons, followers of the various churches of the Latter Day Saint movement, who believe in the unity in purpose of the Godhead but that Jesus is a divine being distinct from, and created by, God the Father, but similar in every other respect (thus roughly Homoiousian rather than Anomoean). Thus, Jesus is literally (spiritually) the Firstborn of the Father. Also in line with Arianism, Mormons believe that the pre-incarnate Jesus (the Logos of John 1) created the Earth under the direction of the Father. In fact, they go further than most on this point, equating the pre-existent Jesus with Jehovah, the God of the Old Testament (perhaps as a spokesman for the Father, for whom they reserve the Old Testament title Elohim). Although the LDS Church views the doctrinal schisms of the late Roman Empire as a sure sign of the Great Apostasy, they do not officially claim any allegiance to Arius.
*Muslims, who believe that Jesus (generally called Isa), was a Messenger and Prophet of the one God, but not himself divine.
*Michael Servetus, a Spanish scholar and Protestant reformer, is viewed by many Unitarians as a founding figure. In 1553, he was sentenced to death and burned at the stake by his fellow reformers, including John Calvin, for the heresy of Antitrinitarianism, a Christology that may seem similar in some ways to Arianism. However, Servetus rejected Arius's teaching on the Son being a creature created by the Father, and his theology was actually closer to Sabellianism.
*Unpublished writings by Isaac Newton indicate that he held anti-Trinitarian beliefs and regarded the worship of Jesus Christ as God to be idolatrous.[2] He did not publicize these views, which could have cost him his fellowship at Trinity College, Cambridge, and has been described by modern scholars as a secret Arian.[3]
*Spanish liberation theologian Juan José Tamayo was accused in 2003 of defending "a renewed version of the old Arian error" which is "incompatible with the Catholic faith", by the Spanish Bishops' Commission for the Doctrine of the Faith, because of his theological positions published in several of his books about the relationship between Jesus and God the Father. Tamayo has up to now rejected the Bishops' demand to stop writing on this issue.[4]
THE THEOLOGİAN JUAN JOSE TAMAYO, ADMONİSHED BY İTS İNCOMPATİBLE İDEAS "WİTH THE CATHOLİC FAİTH"
ABC MADRID.
His book "God and Jesus", written by the secretary of the Association of Theologians and Theologians Juan XXIII, Juan Jose Tamayo Acosta, when considering that their conclusions "are incompatible with the catholic doctrine".
Frontal rejection of the tradition of the Church in its cristológicas definitions, arbitrary selection - not justified of passages of the New Testament with the express abandonment of others and interpretation of such according to confused criteria that do not specify ". In the same way,negation of the divinity of Jesus Christ, presentation of Jesus like a mere man, negation of the historical and real character of the resurrection, and this one like fundamental data of the Christian faith ".
THE THEOLOGICAL DEBATES REOPEN AFTER COUNCIL OF NICEA.
The Council of Nicea had not ended the controversy, as many bishops of the Eastern provinces disputed the homoousios, the central term of the Nicene creed, as it had been used by Paul of Samosata, who had advocated a monarchianist Christology. Both the man and his teaching, including the term homoousios, had been condemned by the Synods of Antioch in 269.
Hence, after Constantine's death in 337, open dispute resumed again. Constantine's son Constantius II, who had become Emperor of the eastern part of the Empire, actually encouraged the Arians and set out to reverse the Nicene creed.
Constantius used his power to exile bishops adhering to the Nicene creed, especially Athanasius of Alexandria, who fled to Rome. In 355 Constantius became the sole Emperor and extended his pro-Arian policy toward the western provinces, frequently using force to push through his creed.
As debates raged in an attempt to come up with a new formula, three camps evolved among the opponents of the Nicene creed.
The first group mainly opposed the Nicene terminology and preferred the term homoiousios (alike in substance) to the Nicene homoousios, while they rejected Arius and his teaching and accepted the equality and coeternality of the persons of the Trinity.
The second group also avoided invoking the name of Arius, but in large part followed Arius' teachings and, in another attempted compromise wording, described the Son as being like (homoios) the Father.
A third group explicitly called upon Arius and described the Son as unlike (anhomoios) the Father. Constantius wavered in his support between the first and the second party, while harshly persecuting the third.
The debates between these groups resulted in numerous synods, among them the Council of Sardica in 343, the Council of Sirmium in 358 and the double Council of Rimini and Selecia in 359, and no less than fourteen further creed formulas between 340 and 360, leading the pagan observer Ammianus Marcellinus to comment sarcastically: "The highways were covered with galloping bishops." None of these attempts were acceptable to the defenders of Nicene orthodoxy: writing about the latter councils, Saint Jerome remarked that the world "awoke with a groan to find itself Arian."
After Constantius' death in 361, his successor Julian, a devotee of Rome's pagan gods, declared that he would no longer attempt to favor one church faction over another, and allowed all exiled bishops to return; this had the objective of further increasing dissension among Christians. The Emperor Valens, however, revived Constantius' policy and supported the "Homoian" party, exiling bishops and often using force.
Valens died in the Battle of Adrianople in 378 and was succeeded by Theodosius I, who adhered to the Nicene creed. This allowed for settling the dispute.
Two days after Theodosius arrived in Constantinople, November 24, 380, he expelled the Homoian bishop. Theodosius had just been baptized, by bishop Acholius of Thessalonica, during a severe illness, as was common in the early Christian world. In February he and Gratian published an edict that all their subjects should profess the faith of the bishops of Rome and Alexandria (i.e., the Nicene faith), or be handed over for punishment for not doing so.
In 381, at the Second Ecumenical Council in Constantinople, a group of mainly Eastern bishops assembled and accepted the Nicene Creed of 381, which was supplemented in regard to the Holy Spirit, as well as some other changes, see Comparison between Creed of 325 and Creed of 381. This is generally considered the end of the dispute about the Trinity and the end of Arianism among the Roman, non-Germanic peoples.
Suggested sites. (take away - please)
A: Sam wrote:
Now as for the question, if I am atached to any religion, the answer is Yes. I am atached now to Islam only, but I will never be atached to any sect or group ar party, those who call themselves Muslims. (I will explain that later on). I would like to exchange many other ideas if you like.
Roy wrote:
I like exchange of your ideas of course. I understand your reason of avoid saying attached to any religion as you quoted before.
sam • Date: 04/06/07 wrote:
C- Since I am not attached to any religion, my search was neutral and I analyse things using the logic as a tool.
Roy wrote:
I am ashamed of the peope who called them muslim has made you too much hesitant to identify yourself as one of them. I recall in history no nation has called themselves namely “islamic “ country because of the heaviness of the meaning. They prefered names represent themselves only. We see exceptions today with such as Afghanistan, Iran, Mauritania, and Pakistan islamic republic. It is a big thing to say islamic republic, openly Afghanistan, Iran, Mauritania, and Pakistan can not carry the name properly.
Islam is the name of all religions since Adam~it is basic teaching. I also claim because of this fact there is no meaning in “dialogue between religions”. A Vatican invention, in which many islamic scholars succumb. There is only one religion, so where is the other religions to dialogue with.
We muslims have the inability to cope with Quranic advices only, let alone hadiths, sunnath. They invented many false beliefs supposedly Prophet Mohammad (sas) applied. The products of those belief are todays shameful situations in islamic countries. He, as a prophet, has predicted this in his era and erased every recorded material of his words.
The sayings and behaviours if kept at hearts only would have been much more useful. I wish, people come to realize that, they found true İslam in their Quran and well educated scholars around the globe today. I aggree with you in all your attributes.
Name:hayomtov8 •
Date: 04/12/07 18:19
A: A: HEY GUYS,
RELIGIOUS OR NOT ,BELIEVER OR UNBELIEVER, NATURALIST OR CREATIONIST.COME ON! YOU ARE NOT DOING YOUR HOME WORK . THIS IS A FORGERY! A HOAX ! ALL OF YOU WHO ARE SPEAKING IN FAVOR OF THIS FAKE FRAUDAULENT FIND ARE GOING TO HAVE EGG ON YOUR FACES!! THIS IS GOING TO END UP STRENGTHENING THE CHRISTIANS POSITION WATCH!!! IT IT IS A STRAW DOG FOR SURE. THERE ARE SO MANY RED FLAGS TO THE DISCRIMINATING MIND. MARK MY WORDS!! I PROMISE I WILL POST NO OTHER STATEMENTS UNTIL THAT DAY WHICH HAS ALREADY BEGUN . THE TRICKLE OF DETRACTIONS,RESHUFFLELING,RETRACTIONS WILL BECOME A RAGING RIVER!!!!! ON THAT DAY I WILL POST AGAIN,SO UNTIL THEN KEEP......(FILL IN THE BLANKS WITH WHAT EVER YOU CALL YOURSELVES DOING).
Name:Rest •
Date: 01/02/09 4:14
A: If some people take cue from Bhavishya puraana taking it to be some sort of a miracle then let me tell you Bhavishya puraana hails Satan as "Kali pUrusha" who mislead Adam and Eve and got them punished it calls them Malechcha who spoke dirty language and malechchas are to be killed wherever they are found.It furthur states there was life before Adam and Eve.
According to Islam only Jinns lived on earth before Adam and this clearly proves Hindu scriptures were written by Jinns and they hail Satan too who was one of the Jin naccording to islam!
It refers to Prophet moahmmed as a devil who lived by River Saraswathi and who challanged their God Lord Shiva.Bhavishya puaran is Satanic as it abuses Prophet Moses and Noah too.You can read the full articles here:http://www.indiadivine.org/articles/187/1/Bh-avishya-Purana-The-History-of-the-Bible/Page1.htm-l-
Name:Enron •
Date: 01/10/09 17:17
A: Indiana Jones meets the Da Vinci Code areply to authenticity of Quran relating to Bible
By Spengler January 10, 2009
Islam watchers blogged all weekend about news that a secret archive
of ancient Islamic texts had surfaced after 60 years of suppression.
Andrew Higgins' Wall Street Journal report that the photographic
record of Koranic manuscripts, supposedly destroyed during World War
II but occulted by a scholar of alleged Nazi sympathies, reads like
a conflation of the Da Vinci Code with Indiana Jones and the Holy
Grail.
The Da Vinci Code offered a silly fantasy in which Opus Dei,
homicidal monks and twisted billionaires chased after proof that
Christianity is a hoax. But the story of the photographic archive of
the Bavarian Academy of Sciences, now ensconced in a Berlin vault,
is a case of life imitating truly dreadful art. It even has
Nazis. "I hate those guys!" as Indiana Jones said.
No one is going to produce proof that Jesus Christ did not rise from
the grave three days after the Crucifixion, of course. Humankind
will choose to believe or not that God revealed Himself in this
fashion. But Islam stands at risk of a Da Vinci Code effect, for in
Islam, God's self-revelation took the form not of the Exodus, nor
the revelation at Mount Sinai, nor the Resurrection, but rather a
book, namely the Koran. The Encyclopaedia of Islam (1982)
observes, "The closest analogue in Christian belief to the role of
the Koran in Muslim belief is not the Bible, but Christ." The Koran
alone is the revelatory event in Islam.
What if scholars can prove beyond reasonable doubt that the Koran
was not dictated by the Archangel Gabriel to the Prophet Mohammad
during the 7th century, but rather was redacted by later writers
drawing on a variety of extant Christian and Jewish sources? That
would be the precise equivalent of proving that the Jesus Christ of
the Gospels really was a composite of several individuals, some of
whom lived a century or two apart.
It has long been known that variant copies of the Koran exist,
including some found in 1972 in a paper grave at Sa'na in Yemen, the
subject of a cover story in the January 1999 Atlantic Monthly.
Before the Yemeni authorities shut the door to Western scholars, two
German academics, Gerhard R Puin and H C Graf von Bothmer, made
35,000 microfilm copies, which remain at the University of the
Saarland. Many scholars believe that the German archive, which
includes photocopies of manuscripts as old as 700 AD, will provide
more evidence of variation in the Koran.
The history of the archive reads like an Islamic version of the Da
Vinci Code. It is not clear why its existence was occulted for sixty
years, or why it has come to light now, or when scholars will have
free access to it. Higgins' account begins,
On the night of April 24, 1944, British air force bombers hammered a
former Jesuit college here housing the Bavarian Academy of Science.
The 16th-century building crumpled in the inferno. Among the
treasures lost, later lamented Anton Spitaler, an Arabic scholar at
the academy, was a unique photo archive of ancient manuscripts of
the Koran.
The 450 rolls of film had been assembled before the war for a bold
venture: a study of the evolution of the Koran, the text Muslims
view as the verbatim transcript of God's word. The wartime
destruction made the project "outright impossible", Mr Spitaler
wrote in the 1970s.
Mr Spitaler was lying. The cache of photos survived, and he was
sitting on it all along. The truth is only now dribbling out to
scholars - and a Koran research project buried for more than 60
years has risen from the grave. Why Spitaler concealed the archive
is unknown, but Koranic critics who challenge the received Muslim
account suspect his motives. Higgins reports,
"The whole period after 1945 was poisoned by the Nazis," says Gunter
Luling, a scholar who was drummed out of his university in the 1970s
after he put forward heterodox theories about the Koran's origins.
His doctoral thesis argued that the Koran was lifted in part from
Christian hymns. Blackballed by Spitaler, Luling lost his teaching
job and launched a fruitless six-year court battle to be reinstated.
Feuding over the Koran, he says, "ruined my life".
He wrote books and articles at home, funded by his wife, who took a
job in a pharmacy. Asked by a French journal to write a paper on
German Arabists, Luling went to Berlin to examine wartime records.
Germany's prominent postwar Arabic scholars, he says, "were all
connected to the Nazis".
Why were the Nazis so eager to suppress Koranic criticism? Most
likely, the answer lies in their alliance with Islamist leaders, who
shared their hatred of the Jews and also sought leverage against the
British in the Middle East. The most recent of many books on this
subject, Matthias Kuntzel's Jihad and Jew-Hatred, was reviewed
January 13 in the New York Times by Jeffrey Goldberg, who reports
Kuntzel makes a bold and consequential argument: the dissemination
of European models of anti-Semitism among Muslims was not haphazard,
but an actual project of the Nazi Party, meant to turn Muslims
against Jews and Zionism. He says that in the years before World War
II, two Muslim leaders in particular willingly and knowingly carried
Nazi ideology directly to the Muslim masses. They were Haj Amin al-
Husseini, the mufti of Jerusalem, and the Egyptian proto-Islamist
Hassan al-Banna, the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood.
It may be a very long time before the contents of the Bavarian
archive are known. Some Koranic critics, notably the pseudonymous
scholar "Ibn Warraq", claim that Professor Angelika Neuwirth, the
archive's custodian, has denied access to scholars who stray from
the traditional interpretation. Neuwirth admits that she has had the
archive since 1990. She has 18 years of funding to study the
Bavarian archive, and it is not clear who will have access to it.
When the Atlantic Monthly story on Koranic criticism appeared nine
years ago, author Toby Lester expected early results from the Yemeni
finds.
Von Bothmer, Puin, and other scholars will finally have a chance to
scrutinize the texts and to publish their findings freely - a
prospect that thrills Puin. "So many Muslims have this belief that
everything between the two covers of the Koran is just God's
unaltered word," he says. "They like to quote the textual work that
shows that the Bible has a history and did not fall straight out of
the sky, but until now the Koran has been out of this discussion.
The only way to break through this wall is to prove that the Koran
has a history too. The Sana'a fragments will help us to do this.
In 2005, Puin published a collection of articles under the title,
Die dunklen Anfange. Neue Forschungen zur Entstehung und fruhen
Geschichte des Islam ("The dark beginnings: new research on the
origin and early history of Islam," Hans Schiller Verlag, 2005).
This drew on the work of the pseudonymous German
philologist "Christoph Luxenburg", who sought to prove that
incomprehensible passages in the Koran were written in Syriac-
Aramaic rather than Arabic. Luxenburg's thesis became notorious for
explaining that the "virgins" provided to Islamic jihadis in
paradise were only raisins. The Koran, according to the research of
Puin and his associates, copied a great deal of extant Christian
material.
Apart from the little group at the University of the Saarland and a
handful of others, though, the Western Academy is loathe to go near
the issue. In the United States, where Arab and Islamic Studies rely
on funding from the Gulf States, an interest in Koranic criticism is
a failsafe way to commit career suicide.
Neuwirth has led the attack on "Christoph Luxenburg" and other
Koranic critics who dispute the traditional Muslim account.
According to Higgins, "Ms Neuwirth, the Berlin Koran expert, and Mr
Marx, her research director, have tried to explain the project to
the Muslim world in trips to Iran, Turkey, Syria and Morocco. When a
German newspaper trumpeted their work last fall on its front page
and predicted that it would 'overthrow rulers and topple kingdoms',
Mr Marx called Arab television network al-Jazeera and other media to
deny any assault on the tenets of Islam."
Despite her best efforts to reassure Islamic opinion, Higgins
reports, she has stepped on landmines herself. "Ms Neuwirth, though
widely regarded as respectful of Islamic tradition, got sideswiped
by Arab suspicion of Western scholars. She was fired from a teaching
post in Jordan, she says, for mentioning a radical revisionist
scholar during a lecture in Germany."
The story thus far recalls the ending of another Indiana Jones film
(Raiders of the Lost Ark), in which the Ark of the Covenant is filed
away in an enormous warehouse, presumably never to be touched again.
The Muslim world will continue to treat Koranic criticism as an
existential risk, and apply whatever pressure is required to
discourage it - albino monks presumably included.
But that is not the end of the matter. The Islamic world is forced
to adopt an openly irrational stance, employing its power to
intimidate scholars and frustrate the search for truth. It is
impossible for Muslims to propose a dialogue with Western religions,
as 38 Islamic scholars did in an October 13 letter to Pope Benedict
XVI and other Christian leaders, and rule the subject of text
criticism out of the discussion.
Precisely for this reason, Church leaders see little basis for a
dialogue with Islam. Jean-Louis Cardinal Tauran, who directs the
Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue, told the French
daily La Croix, "Muslims do not accept discussion about the Koran,
because they say it was written under the dictates of God. With such
an absolutist interpretation, it's difficult to discuss the contents
of the faith."
Throughout the Internet, Islamist sites denounce the work of a
handful of marginalized scholars as evidence of a plot by Christian
missionaries to sabotage Islam. What the Muslim world cannot conceal
is its vulnerability and fear in the face of Koranic criticism. In
the great battle for converts through the Global South, this may
turn out to be a paralyzing disadvantage.
Copyright 2008 Asia Times Online Ltd. All rights reserved.
