Name:lunagoth •
Title: Islamic point of view •
Date posted: 10/21/07 3:26
Q: All this time, the debate and discussion about Jesus only taken from Jewish and Christianity point of view.
Why don't you try to see it from Islamic point of view?
As Christians and Jews,Moslems also believe in Jesus,but they believe him as a prophet not son of God.
I dont really know much about what Islam see in Jesus.
By the way, if you read The Choice from Ahmed Deedat,perhaps you'll find some interesting explanation about Jesus death.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/04/08 16:08
A: Hi Luna,
It is my experience that Palestinians know a lot about
Christianity. More so than Muslims from other areas of the world.
A Muslim writer from many centuries ago was known by 2 names : Ibn Rusht and Averoes. I wish he could suddently join this exchange.
Indie Anna in Quebec
Name:Panluna •
Date: 01/06/08 19:47
A: lunagoth,
Sam and Roy are two of the Moslims on this forum.You can get their genuine perspective from reading their many posts all through out the forum.If you want to learn about a religion do some research or/and talk to the members.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/18/08 13:58
A: Scholarship on the Koran
I did a web search, using the words "Koran" and "exegesis".
"Exegesis" means text analysis.
The pages I first went to were not simple enough for me.
This second link gives the kind of simplicity I was looking for.
It concludes by saying the following :
" Despite all such religious and secular avenues from which the Koran is approached, Muslim and Western analyses agree that the Koran is a beautiful, lyrical, and powerful work. "
This web page allows, I believe, Christians and Muslims to establish before an exchange begins, where each person is coming from,
each person's approach to Scripture.
Understanding a person's approach to Scripture makes for respectful and fruitful exchange.
Christians approach Scripture analysis in one of two ways.
Christians either believe that the Bible is
- "reportage" or "dictation" of God, or,
- the record by mankind of its faith experience, which contain exhortation, supplication, history, multiple books and editings...
Approach to Koranic writings,
according to the above quoted E-note web page explains that
" The critical reception of the Koran can be
divided roughly into 2 categories:
1.
Muslim exegesis ; distinction may be drawn between
- traditional or conservative interpretation,
- and the approach of modernists to the Koran.
Nineteenth- and twentieth-century Muslim exegesis of the Koran has been approached primarily from 3 different viewpoints:
(i) natural history, also referred to as scientific exegesis, in which attempts are made to prove that modern sciences are not in contradiction with the Koran;
(ii) philology, in which attempts are made to uncover the literal meaning of the Koran, the meaning it would have had in Muhammad's time;
(iii) and from the viewpoint of the day-to-day life of Muslims
(this approach is often referred to as practical exegesis),
in which an effort is made to determine which aspects of modern daily life should be influenced by the Koran.
2.
Western examination of the Koran has included
- histories of the text and its "author;"
- analysis of its form and style; and
- comparison with Jewish and Christian scripture. " (End of quote)
Conservative US Christians see the Bible as a " dictation from God " .
Conservative Muslims see the Koran as the "direct word of God".
Before exchanging, it is useful to understand a person's approach to Scripture.
I do not believe in the ' direct dictation' method of revelation.
I believe that Scripture is literature which reflects what men are able to say about divinity. Though human literature, I believe that God's goodness is revealled in that literature.
Scripture is the record by men, sometimes inspired men, of the story of their faith in God and of their faith journey.
After watching Discovery channel's March 07 Press Conference
on the Talpiot Tomb
( http://dsc.discovery.com/-convergence/tomb/tomb.htm-l- ) ,
I agree with Doctor Tabor that it is d e s i r a b l e to have the imperfections and imprint of history in sacreed text.
It is in the examination of the imperfections in sacred text,
it is in the examination of the imprint of history in sacred text,
that I see r e v e a l e d the ruoh of God.
If Christians and Muslim exchange about Scripture,
it is my prayer that they will not "talk AT each other',
but talk WITH each other.
The E-notes web page (see first link quoted above) lists
the major themes of the Koran as :
- salvation and judgement;
- the nature of God;
- the concepts of free will and predestination;
- the relationship between reason and revelation;
- the role of prophets;
- universalism;
- religious duties,
- day-to-day living principles and rules.
May exchanges between Christians and Muslims on this site be
between people who are genuinely curious about the beliefs
of her or his fellow human being.
Indie Anna
Name:Jonn •
Date: 01/19/08 3:49
A: I was surprise to find out the Jews Talmud (Anti -Christ Book) said about Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. When I compared what the Muslim Quran said about Jesus Christ.
It is the weirdest book (Talmud) I ever read. So how can they get peace and stable life in their country with denying Jesus? They are still paying the price! I am praying to the Lord to give them mercy and revelation. Our precious Jesus Christ gave us peace, salvation, Eternal life, healing to our spirit, soul and flesh. He changed our attitude and perception of this world. I don’t have words to express my deep satisfaction after he changed my life. He is our bridegroom and will come take us to live with Him. Bless be the almighty God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who gave us his only begotten son.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/19/08 5:28
A: The Talmud
http://www.sacred--texts.com/jud/talmud.htm
-A- search for Talmud at Google will turn up hundreds of thousands of hits, a depressing number of which are to anti-Semitic sites.
However, to our knowledge this is the first extensive English translation of the Talmud to be posted on the Internet.
The Talmud is a vast collection of Jewish laws and traditions.
Despite the dry subject matter, the Talmud makes interesting reading because it is infused with vigorous intellectual debate, humor and deep wisdom.
As the saying goes, 'you don't have to be Jewish' to appreciate this text.
If you put in the hard work required to read the Talmud, your mind will get a world-class workout.
The process of studying the Talmud has been compared with the practice of Zen Buddhist Koan meditation, and for good reason.
R o d k i n s o n s ' 10-book edition, the only extensive one currently in the public domain, contains complete translations of
the 'Festivals' and 'Jurisprudence' sections of the Talmud.
Rodkinson only finished about a third of the Talmud.
All ten volumes were prepared at Sacred-texts and are available here in their entirety.
Rodkinson has been widely criticized, both from traditionalist Jews who feel that translating the Talmud is not an acceptable practice,
as well as from those hostile to the Talmud and Judaism in general.
As often seems to be the case, the political spectrum seems to be a Mobeius loop.
All of these viewpoints are abundantly represented on the Internet.
Some quote material out of context, or ascribe hostile intent to innocent passages.
The most hurtful critics are those who claim that Rodkinson deliberately left out material to conceal an evil Jewish agenda.
After completion of this etext, I can unequivocally state that this is hogwash.
Rodkinson's Talmud is, by definition, an abridgement for modern readers. He left out only the sections where the debate spins off into complete obscurity, and was careful to document where he did so.
Now that this incredible text, lovingly translated, is on the Internet perhaps these criticisms can finally be put to rest.
Bibliographic note on Rodkinsons' Talmud
Rodkinson's translation went through at least two editions.
The sacred-texts version was prepared from the second edition.
All of these were from the 1918 printing, with the exception of book 1, which was scanned from a 1903 printing.
The numbering of the volumes changed radically between the first and second edition ; to add to the confusion the 2nd edition was bound into a 10-book set, 2 volumes per book.
This numbering is consistent, for instance,
the 2nd edition
book 1 contains volumes 1 and 2;
book 5 contains volumes 9 and 10, and so on.
However, the volume sequence of the first edition was completely shuffled in the second edition; for instance,
volumes 9 and 10 of the second edition (in book 5) correspond to volumes 1 and 2 of the first edition.
This confusion will be evident if you shop the used book market for individual books of this set (which are fairly abundant at reasonable prices).
Book 1: Tract Sabbath
This book contains Tract Sabbath, which discusses what can and cannot be done on the Jewish Holy day. This tract has a wealth of information on everyday Jewish life in late Classical times, including, for some reason, a great number of medical recipies. Because almost everything is done differently on the Sabbath, this contains an incredible level of ethnographic detail about a wide range of household activities including livestock, clothing, meals, horticulture, hunting, and other more obscure topics, such as fire-fighting and feminine hygene.
Rodkinson makes the point in an appendix that many of the Talmundic regulations which seem to be arbitrary were developed as a response to political persecution. He also includes a prayer which is offered upon the conclusion of studying any tract.
Book 2: Tracts Erubin, Shekalim, Rosh Hashana
This book contains tracts from section Moed (Festivals). Tract Erubin deals with regulations concerning travel on the Sabbath, and the proper construction of 'Erub', propitiatory offerings for transgressions of these rules, usually, but not always, constructed of food. Tract Shekalim deals with tithes. Tract Rosh Hashana discusses the Jewish New Year, a floating holiday tied to lunar observations.
Book 3: Tracts Pesachim, Yomah and Hagiga
This book also contains tracts from section Moed (Festivals), primarily discussions of the rituals to be performed on important holy days: principally Passover and the Day of Atonement. The short third tract, Hagiga, discusses the Holocaust ceremony, (meaning a burnt-offering), which today has come into use as a term for the Nazi genocide. Among other points of interest is description of the ritual of the scapegoat in Chapter VI. of Tract Yomah; and Chapter II. of Tract Hagiga has a notable digression on a variety of subjects, including the cryptic Chariot of God, and the names and characteristics of the seven heavens.
Book 4: Tracts Betzh, Succah, Moed Katan, Taanith, Megilla and Ebel
Rabbathi or Semahoth
This rounds out the Festivals portion of Rodkinson's Talmud translation. Tract Betzah details regulations about cooking, fishing, hunting and other activities on feast days. Tract Succah discusses the Festival of the Tabernacles, particularly the construction and use of the Succah, or booth. Moed Katan is about miscellaneous laws about some minor festivals, for instance activites which are permissible during intercalendary periods. Taanith has discussions about the beginning of the rains, including a sequence of folktales about rainmaking Rabbis. Megilla is about Purim, particularly about the public reading of the book of Esther during that festival. Ebel Rabbath is about mourning and other funerary activities.
Book 5: Tracts Aboth, Derech Eretz-Rabba, Derech Eretz-Zuta, and Baba Kama (First Gate)
This book starts out with three tracts on ethics, including the lucid and moving Pirqe Aboth (Sayings of the Fathers), (also available at sacred-texts in a translation by Taylor). This edition of Aboth comes with extensive commentary. The Baba Kama is the first section of a three-part opening arc of the Jurisprudence section. To the modern reader it is of interest because of the unintentional and (sometimes pungent) atmospheric details of everyday life in first century Israel. Many of the Baba Kama cases start when 'an ox gores' someone or something; the modern equivalent would probably be automobile moving violations. The debates are notable because they are based equally on scripture and appeals to an emerging standard of common-sense justice and human rights.
Book 6: Tract Baba Kama (First Gate), Part II and Tract Baba Metzia (Middle Gate)
This book contains the conclusion of Baba Kama, the First Gate, and Baba Metzia, the Middle Gate. The second half of Baba Kama continues with cases involving stolen items. Baba Metzia continues with civil law, particularly cases involving damages: among the topics are found and loaned articles, real estate, loans, titles, what constitutes usury and fraud, and labor law. Many of the cases in Baba Metzia are extremely convoluted, more so than usual. There are a few scattered legends about the life and death of the principal authors of the Talmud, and some notable passages, mostly in Chapter IV.
Book 7: Tract Baba Bathra (Last Gate)
This, the third part of the 'Gate' sequence of tracts, deals with issues of civil law regarding property, including real estate, moveable possessions, and inheritance, in the usual great detail. At times the discussion becomes so hypothetical that Rodkinson, thankfully, skips ahead a bit. Sandwiched in this very dry volume is one wild section of Haggada (at the end of Chapter V) which consists of some very tall tales about fish, alligators and nautical going-ons. Also, notably, this tract includes what has to be one of the first attempts to discuss where transgender people fit into the legal framework.
Book 8: Tract Sanhedrin: Section Jurisprudence (Damages)
The subject matter of Tract Sanhedrin is principally about crime and punishment. One of the most notable discussions in this book is the debate about the 'stubborn and rebellious son' (Chapter VIII). The rabbis openly express scepticism that a son who disrespects his father in a particular way should be put to death. Out of this quibble over an obscure 'worst case scenario' we see the emergence of a key principle of jurisprudence: the execution of divine law must be tempered by human mercy. This book also wanders far and wide, dispensing wisdom on such topics as the location of the lost tribes, what the windows on Noah's ark were made of, and when the Messiah is due to arrive.
Book 9: Tracts Maccoth, Shebuoth, Eduyoth, Abuda Zara, and Horioth
This is the final book of the Rodkinson translation of the Talmud; it contains the remaining portions of the Jurisprudence section. Tract Maccoth deals with corporal punishment. Tract Shebuoth discusses oaths: what constitutes an oath, false oaths, and so on. Tract Eduyoth is a grab-bag of Mishna without commentary which give various cases related to other Talmud tracts. Tract Abuda Zara elaborates the Biblical commandment not to worship idols; it is of historical interest because of the tangential information about what the idolators (i.e. ancient Pagans) did or did not do. Tract Horioth is another short tract which discusses a number of very technical issues, including the hierarchy of dogs, cats and mice.
Book 10: History of the Talmud
This is the introduction to Rodkinsons' translation. A history of the Talmud, starting with its five hundred years of composition from the first to fifth centuries C.E., and its bitter persecution from antiquity, through the Reformation up to the 19th Century. Includes biographies of the dozens of authors who wrote the Talmud, and a detailed bibliography through 1900.
...It's strange, ya know, ... when I came back from the Middle East,
I was strongly pro-Palestinian, ... still am.
I finished my degree in theology and went on to work in another
field.
This event, the Talpiot tomb, has convinced me that despite all my objections to a Jewish State, despite the fact that I still feel Palestinians had their country taken from them, and need to get a country back,
if, for no other reason than for the human race to finally have it out
with respect to religion, the existence of the State of Israel,
because only it would have cared about unearthing Biblical history,
somehow needed to 'be' once again.
To the person who wrote the post above this one,
John, is that your name?
you have made me want to read the Talmud.
Indie Anna
.
Name:hawken •
Date: 02/15/08 12:58
A: Who cares about islam, its a false religion.
Name:sam •
Date: 02/16/08 0:32
A: Hello hawken,
When you throw few words, and you claim " Who cares about islam, its a false religion", that show that you are much less than educated person !!!.
If you do not care about Islam , that is OK, many do the same, the Jews don not care about Christianity and so the Hindu and the Buddhist , even some of the Christians today, but when you said it is a false religion, that is a wrong thing to say and MY QUESTIONS TO YOU:
1- What do you know about Islam, beside what the churches people filled your head with from hate ?
2- Did you read the Quran, their holy book?
3- AS A CHRISTIAN, do you know the history of Christianity and who created it , and who created the TRINITY which you believe in?
4- Did you understand THE WORDS OF JESUS, which they were written in the Gospels ?. If not I will be happy to bring them and explain them to you .
hawken,
You should think before you speak or write, because you will be judged for your words not by me or the others on this forums, but by GOD, the GOD of Abraham, and Moses, and Jesus. Jesus said:
"But I tell you that every careless word that people speak {YOU ARE ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE}, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment. For by your words you will be justified, and by your words { WHO CARES } you {hawken} will be condemned." M-12:36/37
"ISLAM MEANS THE TOTAL SUBMISSION TO GOD."
Jesus was not a Christian, the Christianity is the products of Paul and the Romans.
Jesus words and acts shows us that He SUBMITTED HIMSELF TO GOD.
1- It was at this time that HE {JESUS} went off tho the mountain TO PRAY, AND HE SPENT THE WHOLE NIGHT IN PRAYER TO GOD. L-6:12
( Jesus pray to God, and you pray to Jesus as God !!!, That is CARELESS)
2- Why do you call Me good?, NO ONE IS GOOD EXCEPT GOD ALONE . Mark - 10:18
( God alone .... Jesus is not a God...so do not call Him God. That is CARELESS.)
3- WHEN YOU LIFT UP THE SON OF MAN, THEN YOU WILL KNOW THAT I AM HE. J-8:28
(Jesus words testify that He is the son of man, you should not FALSIFY His words and accept Paul's and the Romans words, because that is a clear CARELESS from you, and you will be judged for it)
4- Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, BUT BLASPHEMY AGAINST THE SPIRIT [GOD] SHALL NOT BE FORGIVEN.
WHOEVER SPEAKS A WORD AGAINST THE SON OF MAN[JESUS], IT SHALL BE FORGIVEN HIM; BUT WHOEVER SPEAKS AGAINST THE HOLY SPIRIT [GOD] , IT SHALL NOT BE FORGIVEN HIM, either in this age or the age to come. M- 12:31/32.
( IFJesus was a part of God, or the son of God, or God, then any word against Him "shall not be forgiven, but He is the son of man, and any word against Him shall be forgiven. That is very clear, except for those who follow the churches instead of following JESUS WORD, and that is CARELESS.)
- I CAN DO NOTHING ON MY OWN INITIATIVE......BUT THE WILL OF HIM [GOD] WHO SENT ME. J-5:30
- THE WORD WHICH YOU HEAR IS NOT MINE, BUT THE FATHER'S WHO SENT ME. J-14:24
{THAT A TOTAL SUBMISSION FROM JESUS TO GOD}
hawken, you should believe in Jesus only, and follow His words, because you will be judged at the end by THE ONE AND ONLY GOD, the God of Jesus, because the churches and the popes and the saints will not be there with you to deffend you, and they are going to be judged by God and not by Jesus.
