Name:sam •
Title: JESUS IN THE QURAN . •
Date posted: 09/07/12 18:29
Q: Hello Indie,
You said:
“One FASCINATING point he raises that I'd like to learn more about are the following criticisms :
1- this concerns criticisms by Occidentals of the Jesus-content in the Quran;...”
— “JESUS” as the name which the western Christians uses for the son of Mary [Mariam], never comes, and never been mentioned in the Quran or in the Arabic Bible.
First:
The name ‘Jesus’ is a fabrication done by the westerners, and it is not the actual/original/ true name of the person who was born to the virgin Mary [Mariam], [If anyone calls Him Jesus , he will not respond, because this is not His name].
Question: Does anyone accept a name given to him to be switched without his permission?. Did Jesus gave His permission to change His name?.
His twelve disciples they never knew Him by this name ‘Jesus’, and they never heard of such a name.
So, what is His name?:
In His own language “Aramaic” , and in the Hebrew language of the Jewish people at His time , He was known as “ISA or ESA”, The Arabic Bible and the Arabic Quran prove it
That is the name which been mentioned in the Arabic Bible countless times, and equal to the times to the name Jesus in the English Bible. And that is very easy to prove.
In the debate between Shorroh and Deedat in the part 27 of 28 , Shorrosh said:
“It will help to ask Mr. Deedat, to see if he can explain to you [Deedat and the audience] , where did you come up with the name “ESA” in the Quran, when His name is
“YASOO(EIN)” {‘EIN’is a letter in Arabic, Hebrew, Aramaic, and there is no corresponding letter for it in English}.
After that he started with [quoting from the Quran], “In the name of Allah the Merciful, the Most Merciful” [and those are the words of the Quran, and came 113 times, Shorrosh mention that], followed by a verse from the Quran, and he attach to it verses from the Bible , [in continuation from one to the other, not mentioning which is from the Quran or which is from the Bible , and done his reading in Arabic ?] .
- The Muslims understand the words of the Quran in Arabic and can differentiate between what comes from the Quran, and what was not from it, but most of The Christians do not know the difference specially when the words are mixed up, so, they will believe that the Name “ISA” came only in the Quran but not in the Bible [they do not know the Arabic Bible, and most of them do not know their own Bible word by word, and that include Shorrosh himself *], while Shorrosh spoke the verses from the Arabic Bible, and every time the name Jesus came in English, it was mentioned as “ISA” in the Arabic Bible.
* Dr. Shorrosh and his partner Dr. Jackson who sat at his side, both do not know their own Bible, and I can prove that if you want.
The names are , “TOUMA /THOMAS” & “PHILIP -Al Hawari” [the name ‘Philip’ came in the Arabic Bible as ‘ Uhana’], which Shorosh spoke of, those names never mentioned in the Quran.
Anyhow, the verse he quoted from the Arabic Bible was from , John 14:3-9 witch mentioned the name of Jesus as “ESA”:
- Thomas/Touma, said to Him... ESA [Jesus] said to him ... John- 5/6
- Philip/Uhana, said to Him.... ESA [Jesus] said to him.... John-8/9
So, when Shorrosh asked Deedat, “where did you come up with the word “ESA” in the Quran”, it doesn’t need Deedat or any other Muslim to answer him back, because the ‘stupid’ Dr. Shorrosh gave the answer himself. IT CAME FROM THE BIBLE, the Arabic Bible.
Shorrosh suppose at the least to know and understand his Bible which been written in his own language which he claimed that he knows very well
Names of people should not be translated, specially the names of the prophets, the messengers of God.
But the Christians translated many, many other names, and even they translated the name of the creator.
Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad they never heard of the name ‘god’or ‘diew’ or whatever name the west came with from names.
‘ELI’, ‘ELOH’, ‘ELOHIM’ , ‘ELAH’, ‘ALLAH’, I think those are the names which came in the Arabic Bible and in the Quran and which were spoken by all the prophets and their followers, at their time.
‘god’ or ‘God’ ?. Using the capital latter changes a god made of stone to the creator .
The word ‘God’, ‘Diew’ etc., was not mentioned by anyone from the time of Abraham to the time of Jesus, and after.
Second:
2- “this concerns the criticism that Muhammed's Arabian location makes for a Quran-Jesus that is removed from the 'source-texts' about Jesus and based only on vague hearsay information on Jesus:”
That is what the Christian claimed, but is it true?.
Many Christian scholars came with the idea that 75% [more or less] of the Quran taken from the Bible/Gospels, but none came with a proof , we saw that in Deedat/Shorrosh debates, and it is the same with every Christians/Muslims debate.
The Quran came to correct what the scribes wrote about Jesus life and death, those events which been distorted by them. Bart Ehrman proved that.
The story of the birth of Jesus in the Gospels:
Mat. 2:9 After hearing the king, they went their way; AND THE STAR, WHICH THEY HAD SEEN AT THE EAST, WENT ON BEFORE THEM UNTIL IT CAME AND STOOD OVER THE PLACE WHERE THE CHILD WAS.
— The moving star !. Those who wrote this story lived in a time when the people think that the stars are small light object in the sky, and can move in any direction and stop !, and those who live in the 21st century still accept this story as God’s words.
This story of the birth of Jesus, the son of God/God the most important person for the Christians was told only by Matthew, and no one else , Mark, Luke and John and even Paul etc. they never heard of it !!!.
The story of the birth of Jesus in the Quran: [from chapter Mariam]
Q- 19:16 - 34
And mention [O Muhammad], in the book [the story of] Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place toward the east.
And she took, in seclusion from them, a screen. Then the Angel [Gabriel], and he represented himself to her as a well-proportioned man.
She said, “Indeed, I seek refuge in the Most Merciful from you, [so leave me], if you should be fearing of Allah.”
He said, “I am only the messenger of your Lord to give you [news of] a pure boy.
She said, “how can I have a boy while no man has touched me and I have not been unchaste?”
He Said, “Thus it will be; your Lord says, it is easy for Me, and We will make him a sign to the people and mercy from Us. And it is a matter already decreed.”
So she conceived him, and she withdrew with him to a remote place.
And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm tree. She said, Oh, I wish I had died before this and was in oblivion, forgotten.”
But He called her from below her, “Do not grieve; your Lord has provided beneath you a stream.
And shake toward you the trunk of the palm tree; it will drop upon you ripe, fresh dates.
So eat and drink and be contended. And if you see from among humanity anyone, say, “Indeed, I have vowed to the Most Merciful abstention, so I will not speak today to any man.”
Then she brought him to her people, carrying him. They said, “O Mary, you have certainly done a thing unprecedented.
O Sister of Aaron, your father was not a man of evil, nor was your mother unchaste.”
So she pointed to him. They said, “How can we speak to one who is in the cradle a child ?.”
[Jesus the child] said, “Indeed, I am the servant of Allah. He has given me the Scripture and made me a prophet.
And He has made me blessed wherever I am and has enjoined upon me prayer and zakah as long as I remain alive
And [made me] dutiful to my mother, and He has not made me a wretched tyrant.
And peace is on me the day I was born and the day I will die and the day I am raised alive.”
19: 34 THAT IS JESUS, THE SON OF MARY , THE WORD OF TRUTH ABOUT WHICH THEY ARE IN DISPUTE.
...............................
The truth is, they [the Christians] are in dispute about everything came in their Gospels, from the time of Jesus birth, to the time when he was died/crucified.
The Quran said:
Q-4:157- 159
And for their saying, “Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah.” And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but was made to resemble him to them*. And Indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption **. And they did not kill him, for certain.
Rather, Allah raised him to himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise.
And there is none from the people of the Scripture but that he will surely believe in him [Jesus] before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection he will be against them a witness.
* Just if we go back, and look at the many miracles, the story of saving the son of Abraham, the saving of Moses from Pharaoh, and the many others, all those are done not by Abraham, Moses, but by God, and the many miracles performed by Jesus was it done by Jesus ?. Jesus said, “I can do nothing on my own initiative...”.
The Question is, “Can God save Jesus by doing a small miracle ?, do you think it is hard for Him to save Jesus by lifting him up to Himself, and to bring an angel or one from the Jews to take his place ?, while we know that God miracles in creating the universe and creating Adam & Eve, and creating billions of living thing from nothing was easy for Him.
** ‘Doubt’ , ‘Assumption’. That is what Allah [God] is telling us in His book the Quran.
Is that true ?. Let us see.
Bishop John S. Spong wrote:
“The Bible full of contradictions and errors. The Gospels cannot be trusted to be reliable.”
Prof. Dr. Bart Ehrman:
He wrote many books among them, ‘Misquoting Jesus’ , ‘Jesus, interrupted’ ,’The Orthodox corruption of the Scripture’ , ‘Forged’ etc., adding to them the many talks and debates, and in all that he is bringing the truth about the Gospels, which is to show the contradictions and the errors in what the scribes wrote, and that will bring doubt about accepting their works as true, and that is what the Quran came with 1400 years ago to correct the stories.
After 1400 years, many Christian scholars who are honest, and not afraid to tell the truth came to agree that the Gospels cannot be trusted in telling the truth, Many believed that the Quran is the correction to what came in the Bible and many accepted Islam [Dr. Dirks & Dr. Brown] and that came after they read both books , the Bible and the Quran, and others who do not believe in the Quran or in God, and who do not want to read the Quran came to the same conclusion about the Bible [Dr. Bart Ehrman, and others]
I can bring many examples, that the Quran was not as a result of ,”Arabian location makes for a Quran-Jesus that is removed from the 'source-texts' “ as you said.
Because if it was, then the stories will be the same, but they are not, and they are completely different, as you see in the above examples.
Note: When people watch the debate, they concentrate mainly on the word spoken, and they might not notice the different behavior of the debaters.
As for Deedat, we see him lifting up the books, but he never open any to read and check, he knows the Quran fully, and he knows the Bible as well.
As for Dr. Shorrosh, we see him going back to the Bible and the Quran to check if Deedat make a mistake or switched the truth, and he did not mention that he found any. And he was confused when he try pick a Bible from the many in front of him, even with help of Dr. Jackson.
Deedat , brought with him the books, but he did not write in advance what he want to say.
Dr. Shorrosh, he wrote in advance an essay, the complete work of what he want to say, and that was done with help of Dr. Jackson and maybe others, and he was reading from it at all time [That is what we call preaching and not a debate], even so he was mistaken between the word of the Bible and the Quran, plus many others.
God bless you
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 09/08/12 8:33
A: .
Saturday September 8th 2012
Good morning Sam.
A busy week is over. Had supper with a work friend last night, a wise woman who grew up in a family of 17! Typical number of some of the older families in Quebec, who ran farms.
Anyway, thank you for the information on the changes in the name of Jesus.
Something happened in English between 1300 and 1700 hundred.
It was called "The Great Vowel Shift".
An easy explination is that the invention of the printing press cause a kind of "gelling" in spelling. This was a gradual process.
(They say, for example, the even Shakespear (1564-1616) himself did not spell his own name the same way everytime he wrote it. He was alive at the end of the 1500s, yet spelling was still very fluid.
Also, the fact that humanity gradually went from being an "oral" culture to a "writing" culture also had an effect in how things were said,
In Middle English, the vowel in :
- "same" [aː] was similar to our modern "psalm";
- "feet" [eː] was similar to our modern "fate";
- "wipe" [iː] was similar to our modern "weep";
- "boot" [oː] was similar to our modern "boat"; and
- "mouse" [uː] was similar to our modern "moose".
The ancient Yehoda became Jesus, in part because of the evolution of language.
Even Arabic is very different as you go from Morroco to Lebanon.
But I will concede that it makes geographical sense that the name of Jesus in the Arabic Qur'an might be closer to the original Aramaîc name of Jesus. You make an interesting point.
So, my question now is :
- even though the Arabian (and Qur'anic) pronunciation of the name of 'Jesus' might be closer to the original Aramaîc pronunciation and written form of the name Jesus, is it not still true that the spread of Christianity travelled in a more north-westerly direction? And not south-easterly direction?
If what Shorrosh says is correct, and two of Muhammed wives came from a Christian background, one has to assume that elements of Christianity manages to trikle down into the Arabian peninsula, probably along the trading route, the same route which Hadijah, his first wife ran her business.
So, I agree with you that Arabian culture and history can and should inform the study of early Christianity, even if from an anachronistic angle.
You raise interesting points.
I am going to enjoy this beautiful Saturday, warn and sunny.
The cooler weather is arriving soon.
Have a nice day, Sam.
Indle
.
Name:sam •
Date: 09/09/12 13:15
A: Good morning, Dear Indie
Thank you for taking time to answer my post.
We had a good weather in the last few days, but it is raining heavy now, and maybe all day today.
I am glad to hear that you had good time with a friend last night. And I wish you all the best at all times.
You said:
“Even Arabic is very different as you go from Morroco to Lebanon.”
That is true, and I agree with you 100%, but, that is what we call “DIALECT” .
It is not only different between Morocco and Lebanon, but between Beirut and Tripoli, Damascus and Aleppo, New York and New Orleans, Quebec and Paris , even sometime between one part of a city and another. For example, in Damascus a person can be identified if he is from ‘Duma’ or ‘El-Maliki’ by his dialect. All that come by using the “ORAL’ spoken language.
Now, my question is, does those who speaks the same language [let us say English] in different ‘dialects’ in different countries [England, Australia, Canada etc.], or Arabic dialect, [Lebanon, Algeria, Egypt] writes the words as they speak it ?. Does all the English speaking people all around the world use the same writing and the same grammar ?.
When comes to writing, there is no such thing as Australian English or England English, or Algerian Arabic or Syrian Arabic. If a person come to study the English language in any university and in any English speaking country, he got the same words and the same grammar, and that goes for the French, Arabic, Latin or whatsoever.
Another example, ‘Oxford dictionary’ it is for all the English people, and there no special dictionary for the Irish or the Australian.
You said: “So, my question now is :
(1) - even though the Arabian (and Qur'anic) pronunciation of the name of 'Jesus' might be closer to the original Aramaîc pronunciation and written form of the name Jesus, is it not still true that the spread of Christianity travelled in a more north-westerly direction? And not south-easterly direction?”
Dear Indie, always you try to find an ‘excuse’ to anything and everything . A religion, if it is really true religion doesn’t change when moving from the east to the west or from south to north, [we cannot change Jesus words when moving around, His words when translated should be carefully chosen the right words, and the name should not , ever changed] , and you do not change ‘ESA’ to ‘Jesus’ etc., and you do not westernize the eastern religion to make it accepted by the west, that is very wrong.
Islam religion [the Quran] is the same all around the world, and what came 1400 years ago are the same today, and it is the same for the Arab Muslim and non-Arab Muslims.
(2) - “If what Shorrosh says is correct, and two of Muhammad wives came from a Christian background.....”
Indie, Do you remember my question?
I asked: I would like to know your opinion about few things:
First, do you trust a person who deliberately lies to you?. yes , no
And your answer:
“You were a member of this forum when I posted to it for the first time 5 years ago.
You have been reading my posts since then.
Do you not know the answers to questions you ask?”
If I asked my brother[ who is very close to me] a question, for sure he will answer it, and he will not say ‘you know me’, for sure I know him all my life, but I do not know what in his mind.
Tell you the truth, no one knows the answer of the others for a question asked, before the answer is given, and you did not give an answer yet, while it is very simple , ‘yes’ or ‘no’.
So from that I knew that you are running away, and you do not want to commit yourself to either yes or no, and that is a political way and not the right way.
When I ask you such question, I want to know beforehand where you stand in regard to those people who lies, either you accept them as liars or not, or if you still keep believing in them as telling the truth?.
“If what Shorrosh says is correct...”. Indie, can a liar be trusted ?, ‘yes’ or ‘no’ ?.
Shorrosh aske Deedat many questions and he got a clear answer for every question asked. Deedat did not lie but Shorrosh did.
If you read my entire post, for sure you know. Shorrosh read verses from the Arabic Bible and claim them that they are from the Quran, and what a liar and idiot he is.
Shorrosh and all the Christians , always keep trying to find something not right in the Quran , and every time any question arise , a right and clear answer is given. Always they fail.
There were many questions from Shorrosh and all been answered, so did your hear those questions and answers ?, or only you hear the questions which you want, from the person you like, and you give a deaf ears to the answer from the one on the other side?.
It is not correct to claim that the Quran was influenced by Muhammad wives or those Jews and Christians whom He met. The Quran is not the words of Muhammad, and similar to that, those who claim such thing and claim that 75% of the Quran are from the Bible are just lying, lies after lies.
Jesus came with His words [Gospel of Jesus], to correct what was wrong by the follower of the old books, and the Quran was sent to correct what came in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John which are not Jesus words, and not the truth [Please go back and listen to Dr. Ehrman, or to the many who said that the Bible is corrupted all the way], and if the Christian books are corrupted, do not go around and attack the others book without knowing the facts.
For you to know and understand the Islam religion, is to go first and read its book, and you can go and ask a highly educated person, a Christian who accepted Islam will be of better choice, and there are many.
I am sure that you will bring many other question about the Quran, because that is what you been doing al the time. For sure you will be Questioning of the women rights in the Quran, and I will be glad to answer, but for you to know the truth is to read the Quran, and then read again your Bible and find out which book brought the better answer to this question.
Dear indie, you do not have to go and buy the Quran, because it is in the internet. I am getting all the information I need from the Bible from the internet .
Many times you mentioned , “Love your neighbor...”, and you think that is great, but what about those who are not your neighbor ?
In the Quran , in the chapter ‘Women’ it came with much broader idea than love only your neighbor:
Q- 4:36/37 Worship Allah and associate nothing with Him, and to parents do good, and to relatives, orphans, the needy, THE NEAR NEIGHBOR, THE NEIGHBOR FARTHER AWAY, the companion at your side, the traveler, and those whom your right hands possess. Indeed, Allah does not like those who are self-deluding and boastful , who are stingy and enjoin upon other people stinginess and conceal what Allah has given them of His bounty.
Dear Indie, please take my word as words from friend, because I do mean well and nothing else. Our talk are no more than exchange of thoughts and ideas, and it is like a debate between two friends who try to come to the truth.
Peace and love, that is what our world need.
God bless you.
You can read the Quran if you are interested from:
Islamcity- the holy Quran
Chapter 19 [MARIAM} , I think you will like and enjoy.
Name:sam •
Date: 09/09/12 16:19
A: Hello Indie,
THE FIVE TRANSLATIONS OF THE QURAN.
Beside the Arabic words of the Quran [in this site], it came with five translations, in which you can chose one or two or all, and I did find this very interesting, and which you might like to know.
The site is:
99 Islam- Islamic video- audio broadcast channel
Next, you click “Allahs Quran” , on the left,
Next, you click on “Read”.
And when you chose a chapter [1- 114] , the chapter will appear with many choices of translations , which you can chose one or more.
Note: Translations are not versions.
This site, beside the translations, it cover a lot of other information about the Quran, and on many other subjects.
This site was created by Yusuf Estes , the man who told his story of conversion , from Christianity to Islam, and you watched his video, you described him as a “funny guy”.
