Name:Alexandra •
Title: Jesus died and was risen three days later! •
Date posted: 02/28/07 4:08
Q: Jesus' purpose in coming here was to offer the perfect, ONE-TIME sacrifice on the cross. Without shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins.
Jesus is alive and in heaven at the right hand of God the Father. He did not marry or father children.
I do NOT believe ANYONE who claims otherwise.
I notice that the Jesus/Mary Magdalene heresy is being promoted as well. I have royal ancestry myself, and I do not believe for one minute that I am descended from Christ Himself!
I am a Bible-believing Christian. The Bible (King James--Authorized Version) is the Word of God and it's completely true!
(Funny, I'd expected this stuff to come out of Rennes-le-Chateau in France!)
Name:Peas •
Date: 02/28/07 11:44
A: Plausable deniability
Name:jesusismysaviour87 •
Date: 02/28/07 12:03
A: Amen!
Name:Pat •
Date: 02/28/07 17:44
A: was born on December 25th.
-was considered a great traveling teacher and master.
-had 12 companions or disciples.
-performed miracles.
-was buried in a tomb.
-after three days he rose again.
-his resurrection was celebrated every year.
-was called “the Good Shepherd.”
-was considered “the Way, the Truth and the Light, the Redeemer, the Savior, the Messiah.”
-was identified with both the Lion and the Lamb.
-his sacred day was Sunday, “the Lord’s Day,”.
-he had his principal festival on what was later to become Easter, at which time he was resurrected.
-his religion had a Eucharist or “Lord’s Supper.”
Well if you guessed Jesus Christ, well, YOU’D BE WRONG!!
In fact all of the above are attributes to … MITHRA, a Roman-Persian God who existed hundreds of years before Christ.
Are these facts of Jesus?
- God was his father
- He was born in a cowshed.
- A human woman, a virgin, was his mother.
- His birth was prophesized by a star in the heavens.
- At a marriage ceremony, he performed the miracle of converting water into wine.
- He was powerless to perform miracles in his hometown.
- His followers were born-again through baptism in water.
- He rode triumphantly into a city on a donkey. Tradition records that the inhabitants waved palm leaves.
- He had 12 disciples.
- He was accused of licentious behavior.
- He was killed near the time of the Vernal Equinox, about MAR-21.
- He died “as a sacrifice for the sins of the world.”
- He was hung on a tree, stake, or cross.
- After death, he descended into hell.
- On the third day after his death, he returned to life.
- After death, he descended into hell.
- On the third day after his death, he returned to life.
- The cave where he was laid was visited by three of his female followers.
- He later ascended to heaven.
- His titles: God made flesh. Savior of the world Son of God.
- He is “God made man,” and equal to the Father.
- He will return in the last days.
- He will judge the human race at that time.
- Humans are separated from God by original sin. The godman’s sacrificial death reunites the believer with God and atones for the original sin.
Well if you guessed Jesus Christ, again, YOU’D BE WRONG!!
In fact all of the above are attributes are to … OSIRIS-DIONYSUS, an Egyptian God that existed thousands of years before Jesus Christ allegedly came around.
Name:ollypop •
Date: 02/28/07 18:24
A: Pat,
Very well put!
Yet the interest in Christianity and Christ himself is as strong as always despite discoveries such as a tomb which could possibly be of importance.
I believe the Bible is the most important Christina book obviously but, it must be examined in the right context just like this discovery
Name:blp1949 •
Date: 02/28/07 21:49
A: My thoughts as well i believe Jesus not man
Name:joshua adesina •
Date: 03/01/07 2:15
A: I AM NOT MOVED BY PEOPLE'S OPINION ABOUT ANYTHING ,I EXAMINE CRITICALLY AND HOLD ON TO WHAT I BELIEVE,TOO MUCH STUDIES IS MAKING PEOPLE TO BEHAVE FUNNY(NOTE ,I AM CONDEMING RESEARCHES),THE HOLY BIBLE IS MY YARDSTICK AND I WILL NOT DEVIATE TILL I DIE.
Name:Kerry •
Date: 03/01/07 3:11
A: I am a Bible-believing Christian. The original manuscripts werent' written in Elizabethton english. The Bible says that Jesus was without sin. Choosing a wife and fathering children isn't a sin. The scriptures say that not all is revealed. Whether he was and did doesn't affect my faith.
Allowing Jesus the freedom to be completely human but without sin doesn't make anyone less Christian (a follower of Christ).
Name:thelord3003 •
Date: 03/01/07 4:13
A: Where in the Bible says that after Christ died he decended into hell? Let me know!
Name:Pat •
Date: 03/01/07 18:43
A: Name: joshua adesina • Date: 02/28/07 21:15
Joshua wrote :
A: I AM NOT MOVED BY PEOPLE'S OPINION ABOUT ANYTHING ,I EXAMINE CRITICALLY AND HOLD ON TO WHAT I BELIEVE,TOO MUCH STUDIES IS MAKING PEOPLE TO BEHAVE FUNNY(NOTE ,I AM CONDEMING RESEARCHES),THE HOLY BIBLE IS MY YARDSTICK AND I WILL NOT DEVIATE TILL I DIE.
Joshua:
The stories of the Bible evolved slowly over centuries before the existence of orthodox religions. Many belief cults spread stories and myths probably handed down by oral tradition from generation to generation before people wrote them down. Many of the stories originally came from Egyptian and Sumerian cults. All of these early religions practiced polytheism, including the early Hebrews. Some of the oldest records of the stories that later entered the Old Testament came from thousands of small cylinder seals depicting creation stories, excavated from the Mesopotamia period. These early artifacts and artworks (dated as early as 2500 B.C.E.) established the basis for the Garden of Eden stories a least a thousand years before it impacted Hebrew mythology.
There is a lot of issues that people will not even face in the bible.
Name:Kluggy •
Date: 03/02/07 21:21
A: What a sad soul you are.
Name:factfinding •
Date: 03/03/07 12:05
A: Was Jesus in the grave for exactly three days and three nights?
"Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" (Matthew 12:38-40).
Since Jesus claimed to be the Messiah, the Jews demanded a sign of Him to prove His claim. Jesus could give them no better proof that He was the Christ than the literal fulfillment of the well-known sign of Jonah, Luke 11:30. If this sign were not literally fulfilled, it would prove unto them that He was not the Messiah. This was the only sign Jesus ever gave them to prove His Messiahship. Hence the great need for Him to do exactly what He promised them to do.
Modern interpreters of the Bible make Jesus Christ a liar. They say Jesus was crucified on Good Friday, buried about sundown the same day, and arose on the next Sunday about daybreak in contradiction to the Scriptures! Any schoolboy knows that this is only two nights and one day. If He were crucified on Good Friday and arose on Sunday morning as they say, then He did not literally fulfill the sign of Jonah. If He did not fulfill this sign as He promised the Jews, then He was an impostor and not the Messiah! In other words, Jesus Christ lied to the Jews about His burial and resurrection.
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" (Matthew 12:38-40).
Factfinding:
Do some of us really believe that Jonas was in a whale belly or in a big fish for 3 days or nights?
Would one not die from all these gastric juices? How gluey and what could be the purpose? It must stink. What in the hell did poor Jonas do to deserve this?
However what if Jonas was in a submarine or some type of underwater boat?
After all God at the time had fiery military vehicles to blast of Israel enemies and to take Elijah, Jacob and Enoch into atmosphere and into space?
What if the text really meant that like Jonas, Jesus took some sort of submarine and went really deep into the caves of the under watered earth to visit those who are bound there.
Was there and are there still people condemn to live there.
Now that make more sense.
Maybe hell is there and in could be a place pretty hot being closer to the core nucleus of the planet.
Name:mardideles •
Date: 03/03/07 17:43
A: This tomb DOES NOT CHANGE MY FAITH IN CHRIST
WILL THIS CHANGE YOUR WALK WITH CHRIST?
-Christ is just a symbol of God, of someone we believe that guides us for good and brings good to us.
Your question is a non sense for non christians, like budhist, muslims, etc.
What is about the website is the actual studies of Jesus Christ Tomb, and the site did not provoke a change in views for Jesus Christ.
But I believe Christ aka God or Budha, etc, gives us wisdom, and to those who accept wisdom will not be blinded from truth, yes of course you believe new technology comes from wisdom, and you of course you accept new technologies in your daily life.
The problem is when Technologies and Discoveries try to tackle our Faith we tend not to believe it. But everyday we depend on it, from turning on your TV, talking to your mobile phone, or browsing the net. But we disbelieve it the moment it tackles our religion and our faith.
I repeat that to know more about God you must be open to Wisdom. Actually Wisdom is God... People with great Wisdom are indeed closest to GOD.
Name:Santiago •
Date: 03/04/07 0:26
A: Pat:
You must be somewhat confused with your allegations about Mithra.
"As the protector of truth and the enemy of error, Mithra occupied an intermediate position in the Zoroastrian pantheon as the greatest of the yazatas, the beings created by Ahuramazda to aid in the destruction of evil and the administration of the world. He was thus a divinity of the realms of air and light, and, by transfer to the moral realm, the manifestation of truth and loyalty. As the enemy of darkness and evil spirits, he protected souls, accompanying them to paradise, and was thus a redeemer. Because light is accompanied by heat, he was the promoter of vegetation and increase; he rewarded the good with prosperity and annihilated the bad."
http://en.wikipedia-.org/wiki/Mithra
Although- I admit there are some far-fetched similarities, I believe your theory can be dismissed.
As for Dionysos, I will provide this quote, followed by a URL:
"D was not merely a god of wine, but a god of paradox; he was the god of the civilized theater, but also the god of wild, orgiastic behavior and drunkenness. He was a god of fertility, but also a god who comforted the dying. He is depicted sometimes as a maniacal, destructive figure, and at other times as an innocent child; sometimes as a bearded man, other times as an effeminiate youth. He is a god of sensuality and experience: "Dionysism throws itself wholeheartedly into savagery in seeking to possess and contact the supernatural." [Dan.GLE, 150] And, it is: "...an expression of the sensual joys of life unrestrained by the state and unchanneled by the patriarchal family." [Eva.GE, 37] Sum it up: Dionysism is a religion that celebrates the destruction of boundaries and the blurring of categories. It is no more like Christianity than Buddhism. So how is it that some argue that D and Christ are twins?"
*D = Dionysos
http://www.tekton-ics.org/copycat/dionysus.html-
Name:Pat •
Date: 03/04/07 16:33
A: Santiago • Date: 03/03/07 19:26 wrote:
A: Pat:
You must be somewhat confused with your allegations about Mithra.
..................-.....Dionysus
Santiago:
I- still stand on by facts and here are the similarities
Dionysus Bacchus similarities to Jesus
Place where Jesus started:
Jesus was from Nazareth, Israel, then the Christian faith spread throughout world.
Place where Dionysus Bacchus started:
The Dionysus (aka Dionysos) religion is generally considered to have begun in Thrace and spread throughout the known world, to Greece, Egypt, and Rome, where he was called Bacchus.
However, it might be that the deity's origin was in the Mediterranean, in Minoan Crete, as Dionysus was one of the names of gods discovered on the Linear B tablets of Mycenae.
Time of Jesus:
Jesus lived approximately 2,000 years ago, probably c. 4 BCE - c. 30.
Time of Dionysus Bacchus :
The worship of Dioynsus dates back several centuries BCE in Greece. The historian Livy mentions the faith in Rome as early as 186 BCE. with the mysteries formally recognized under Julius Cesar in the mid first century BCE
Jesus of Royal Descent and born of a virgin :
Of royal descent, Jesus was born of a virgin, Mary in a stable or cave (the Apocryphal Gospel Protevangelion says in a cave, and the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem is still located in a cave).
Dionysus Bacchus Of Royal descent and born of a virgin:
Dionysus Bacchus was born of the virgin Semele; his father was the supreme god Zeus. Some sources say he was placed in a manger and reared in a cave
Jesus Life was about :
Jesus warned of 'stumbling blocks' along the way (1 Cor. 1: 23 ; Rev. 2: 14).
Dionysus Bacchus Life was about:
Dionysus is a life-death-rebirth deity.
Jesus was named and also identified as:
Jesus is called the Christ; King of Kings; Beginning and the end (Alpha and Omega) Revelation 1: 8 ); Only Begotten Son; Saviour; Redeemer; Sin Bearer; Anointed One; the Way, the Truth and the Life; Light of the World; Messiah; Son of Man; the Word; the Word made Flesh; Lamb of God; Resurrected One; Good Shepherd; King of Kings; associated with fish ('Ichthys'); the Word; Master; Lord; Rabbi (teacher); the Most High God; Prince of Peace; Son of Righteousness; Lion of the Tribe of Judah; identified as 'the seed of the woman bruising the serpent's head'.
Jesus is the second person of the Christian Trinity: (1) God, the Father, (2) Jesus the Son, (3) the Holy Ghost.
Dionysus Bacchus was named and also identified as:
Dionysus was sometimes identified with the lamb; King of Kings; Only Begotten Son; Saviour (Sôtêrios); Redeemer; Sin Bearer; Anointed One; Alpha and Omega.
Dionysos was identified by Greek writers with the Egyptian god Osiris, the Roman Liber, the Thracian Sabazios, the Arabian Orotatl and various other non-Greek gods."
The way Jesus died :
Jesus died painfully, pierced by a spear, crucified on a cross,
The way Dionysus Bacchus died:
Of the Roman God Liber (aka Dionysus, or Bacchus) Christian father Firmicus Maternus writes that his followers believe 'he was intercepted and killed,' and his murderers, 'chopped his members up into pieces and ... devoured them.' An event which his worshipers celebrate in 'recurring sacred rights celebrated every two years,' in which, 'They tear a live bull with their teeth, representing the cruel banquet [at which the God was eaten.]'
Also there is an amulate with Dionysus Bacchus cruxcified
He was a sacred king God killed and eaten in a eucharistic ritual for fecundity and purification.
Jesus Beleifs were :
Baptism: Christians from at least the time of St Paul understood immersion in water as a death-like experience, and emergence from the water they took as the beginning of a new life.
Eucharist: Sacred meal of Blood and Body of the God.
Jesus Christ was 'without sin'. Considered both human and divine; omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent.
Christ claimed: "I am the Resurrection".
He referred to himself as having existed before his birth on earth. Jesus will return on the last day to judge the living and the dead.
Some features: A future reward in heaven or punishment in Hell; a day of judgment; a general resurrection; the need for repentance for sin; salvation requires faith in the Saviour; belief in angels and of evil spirits; belief that disease and sickness is caused by evil spirits; a past war in heaven between good and bad angels; free will; God is considered the 'Word'
Scriptures speak of "the blind leading the blind, "a new heaven and a new earth", "living water", "all scripture is given by inspiration of God", "all scripture is profitable for doctrine", "to die is great gain".
Fasting forms a part of the religion.
The act of being born again is present.
Dionysus Bacchus beleifs:
The Mysteries included: a sacred meal; a myth about the death of the god; salvation.
Dionysus was worshipped, along with other deities, at Eleusis, site of the Eleusinian Mysteries. There was a strong soteriological element of the Mysteries: "It was the common belief in Athens that whoever had been taught the Mysteries [at Eleusis] would, when he died, be deemed worthy of divine glory.
Hence all were eager for initiation."
Scholiast (ancient commentator) on The Frogs, by Aristophanes (c. 446 BCE - 385 BCE), 158
"It looks as if those also who established rites of initiation [into the mysteries] for us were no fools, but that there is a hidden meaning in their teaching when it says that whoever arrives uninitiated in Hades will lie in mud, but the purified and initiated when he arrives there will dwell with gods."
Plato (c. 427 BCE - c. 347 BCE), Phaedo, 69 c
"In Italy, in the third or fourth century BC, texts written on gold plates and buried with the dead, describe the souls of Dionysus followers in the afterlife, drinking not from one particular spring in Hades, but from another cool pool – and that will give them divinity and eternal life." Source: Pagan Origins of the Christ Myth
"There was usually the meal of mystic foods – grains of all sorts at Eleusis, bread and water in the cult of Mithra, wine (Dionysus), milk and honey , raw bull's flesh in the Orphic Dionysus-Zagreus cult."
'Paganism', in The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume XI
Baptism: "at all events, at the Apollinarian and Eleusinian games they are baptized; and they presume that the effect of their doing that is their regeneration and the remission of the penalties due to their perjuries. Among the ancients, again, whoever had defiled himself with murder, was wont to go in quest of purifying waters."
Tertullian (born c. 150 or 160 - died between 220 and 240 CE)
Name:archaeologist992000 •
Date: 03/04/07 16:39
A: A many of you already know, early Christianity, is referred to as the Jesus Movement until the first Church was founded by Paul. Until the founding of teh first Christian Ministry by Paul at Antioch, there were several versions of Christianity in the very early period and until there was the main Gospels were written and compiled. This early period of Xhristianity has many sources usually referred to Collectively as Q (short for the German word Quelle (the well)). Some of the parts of Q have been verified by the findings of the Nag Hamadi Scrolls, the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Aprocypha's, etc... that have popped up thorughout history. The existence of these alternate texts to the main 4 Gospels could be seen as cultural and religious bifurcation points for establishing the different Christian Churches. As well as alternate resources that have yet to be discovered. In some of these texts are obvious references to family members of Jesus, Jesus being married, Jesus being homosexual, etc... These were all merely different takes from a time period when information took decades to travel around and take effect. So, if you can show that Jesus' lost tomb is now located, why not? There is no circumstance in any text or even the bible that shows anythign to the contrary. We know more about earlier religious leaders and have specific information on the birth and death places of Buddha, Muhammad, Zoroaster, Plato, Aristotle, etc... Why should we not assume that this isn't the tomb...
Name:Pat •
Date: 03/04/07 16:39
A: More than twenty beings invested with divine honor (deified) -- have come forward and presented themselves at the bar of the world with their credentials, to contest the verdict of Christendom, in having proclaimed Jesus Christ, "the only son, and sent of God:"
Twenty Messiahs, Saviors, and Sons of God, according to history or tradition, have, in past times, descended from heaven, and taken upon themselves the form of men, clothing themselves with human flesh, and furnishing incontestable evidence of a divine origin, by various miracles, marvelous works, and superlative virtues; and finally these twenty Jesus Christs (accepting their character for the name) laid the foundation for the salvation of the world, and ascended back to heaven.
1. Chrishna of Hindostan.
2. Budha Sakia of India.
3. Salivahana of Bermuda.
4. Zulis, or Zhule, also Osiris and Orus, of Egypt.
5. Odin of the Scaudinavians.
6. Crite of Chaldea.
7. Zoroaster and Mithra of Persia.
8. Baal and Taut, "the only Begotten of God," of Phenicia.
9. Indra of Thibet.
10. Bali of Afghanistan.
11. Jao of Nepaul.
12. Wittoba of the Bilingonese.
13. Thammuz of Syria.
14. Atys of Phrygia.
15. Xaniolxis of Thrace.
16. Zoar of the Bonzes.
17. Adad of Assyria.
18. Deva Tat, and Sammonocadam of Siam.
19. Alcides of Thebes.
20. Mikado of the Sintoos.
21. Beddru of Japan.
22. Hesus or Eros, and Bremrillah, of the Druids.
23. Thor, son of Odin, of the Gauls.
24. Cadmus of Greece.
25. Hil and Feta of the Mandaites.
26. Gentaut and Quexalcote of Mexico.
27. Universal Monarch of the Sibyls.
28. Ischy of the Island of Formosa.
29. Divine Teacher of Plato.
30. Holy One of Xaca.
31. Fohi and Tien of China.
32. Adonis, son of the virgin Io of Greece.
33. IxiOn and Quirinus of Rome.
34. Prometheus of Caucasus.
35. Mohamud, or Mahomet, of Arabia.
These have all received divine honors, have nearly all been worshiped as Gods, or sons of God; were mostly incarnated as Christs, Saviors, Messiahs, or Mediators; not a few of them were reputedly born of virgins; some of them filling a character almost identical with that ascribed by the Christian's bible to Jesus Christ; many of them, like him, are reported to have been crucified; and all of them, taken together, furnish a prototype and parallel for nearly every important incident and wonder-inciting miracle, doctrine and precept recorded in the New Testament, of the Christian's Savior. Surely, with so many Saviors the world cannot, or should not, be lost.
Bacchus of Egypt, Bacchus of Greece, Adonis of Greece, Chrishna of India, Chang-ti of China, Chris of Chaldea, Mithra of Persia, Sakia of India, Jao Wapaul (a crucified Savior of ancient Britain), were all born on the twenty-fifth of December, according to their respective histories.
Chrishna is represented to have been born at midnight on the twenty-fifth of the month Savarana, which answers to our December, and millions of his disciples celebrated his birthday by decorating their houses with garlands and gilt paper, and the bestowment of presents to friends.
It was once common for the women in Rome to perambulate the streets on the twenty-fifth of December, singing in a loud voice, "Unto us a child is born this day."
The twenty-fifth of December, then, it will be observed, was marked as the birthday of the incarnated Gods, Saviors, and Sons of God, of many of the religious systems of antiquity, long prior to the birth of Christ.
And why his birth was fixed at that date is not hard to account for. According to the celebrated Christian writer Mr. Goodrich, the Christian world had no chronology and recorded no dates for several centuries after the commencement of the Christian era. (See History of all Nations, p. 23.) No event of their history was marked by dates for nearly four hundred years. Hence, the time of Christ's birth is altogether a matter of conjecture, as is also every other event noticed in the Christian bible. This is proved by the fact that the ablest Christian writers and chronologists differ to the extent of thirty-five hundred years in fixing the time of every event in the bible. A Mr. Kennedy presents us with three hundred different chronological systems, by different Christian writers, all founded on the bible, and proving that the date of its various events are inextricably involved in a labyrinth of doubt, darkness and uncertainty.
NEARLY all religious history is prophetic of the coming of Saviors, Messiahs, Redeemers, and virgin-born Gods. Most religious countries, and more than a score of religious systems, had a standing prophecy that a divine deliverer would descend from heaven and relieve them from their depressed state, and ameliorate their condition. And in most cases that prophecy was believed to have been fulfilled by the birth of a being, who, as he approached the goal of moral and intellectual manhood exhibited such remarkable proof of superiority of mind as to be readily accepted as the promised Messiah.
Name:Pat •
Date: 03/04/07 16:53
A: The Mithras cult arose c. 600 BCE, before the rise of Rome.
When the Christ myth was new Mithras and Mithraism were already ancient. Worshiped for centuries as God's Messenger of Truth, Mithras was long revered by the Persians (Zoroastrianism) and the Indians (see the Vedic literature).
Christian apologist Justin Martyr (1 Apologia, 66, 4) denounces the devil for having sent a God so similar to Jesus – yet preceding him.
Every year in Rome, in the middle of winter, the Son of God was born once more, putting an end to darkness.
Every year at first minute of December 25th the temple of Mithras was lit with candles, priests in in white garments celebrated the birth of the Son of God and boys burned incense.
Mithras was born in a cave, on December 25th, of a virgin mother. God, in the form of light, entered a virgin, Anahita.
"In Armenian tradition, Mithras was believed to shut himself up in a cave from which he emerged once a year, born anew. The Persians introduced initiates to the mysteries in natural caves, according to Porphyry, the third century neoplatonic philosopher. These cave temples were created in the image of the World Cave that Mithras had created, according to the Persian creation myth."
With twelve disciples, Mithras travelled far and wide as a teacher and illuminator of men.
At about age 30 he began his ministry, offering salvation based on faith, compassion, knowledge and valour.
He had 12 companions or disciples and was considered a great travelling teacher and master.
Mithras performed miracles.
The god remained celibate throughout his life, and valued self-control, renunciation and resistance to sensuality among his worshippers. Mithras represented a system of ethics in which brotherhood was encouraged in order to unify against the forces of evil.
Mithras was known as: Saviour; Son of God; Redeemer; Lamb of God; the Way, the Truth and the Light; Messiah; Light of the World.
He also was called the Good Shepherd and was identified with both the lion and the lamb.
Mithras was known as the God of Truth, and Lord of Heavenly Light, and said to have stated 'I am a star which goes with thee and shines out of the depths'."
Mithras was buried in a tomb from which he rose again from the dead – an event celebrated yearly (spring equinox) with much rejoicing.
After the earthly mission of this god had been accomplished, he took part in a Last Supper with his companions before ascending to heaven, to forever protect the faithful from above.
Mithras of Persia atoned for mankind, and prepared for the salvation of mankind through slaying the primaeval bull—the first sacrifice ... his celebrations at the spring and autumn equinoxes were associated with crucifixion on a tree.
These were the Persian New Year festivities described in the scriptural book of Esther, and involved the crucifixion of the old years, considered wicked, so that a new and uncorrupted year could take its place.
This was seen as an annual rehearsal of the eschaton when the wicked world is finally replaced by the purity of the original creation of Ahuramazda. Christian writers speak of Mithras being slain, and yet do not say how.
Mithras was one part of a holy trinity.
The worshippers of Mithras held strong beliefs in a celestial heaven and an infernal hell. They believed that the benevolent powers of the god would sympathize with their suffering and grant them the final justice of immortality and eternal salvation in the world to come.
They looked forward to a final day of Judgment in which the dead would resurrect, and to a final conflict that would destroy the existing order of all things to bring about the triumph of light over darkness
The followers of Mithras kept the Sabbath holy, eating sacramental meals in remembrance of Him. The sacred meal of bread and water, or bread and wine, was symbolic of the body and blood of the sacred bull.
"He who will not eat of my body and drink of my blood will not be made one with me or I with him, the same shall not know salvation."
Persian Mithraic text
Baptism in the blood of the bull (taurobolum) – early baptism 'washed in the blood of the Lamb' – late baptism by water.
Mithraic baptism was recorded by the early Christian author Tertullian: "Mithra there brings in the symbol of a resurrection." Also, Tertullian: "
The Devil, whose business is to pervert the truth, mimics the exact circumstances of the divine sacraments in the mysteries of idols. He himself baptizes some, that is to say, his believers and followers; he promises forgiveness of sins in the sacred fount, and thus initiates them into the religion of Mithra."
Mithraic rituals brought about the transformation and salvation of his adherents – an ascent of the soul of the adherent into the realm of the divine.
From the wall of a Mithraic temple in Rome: 'And thou hast saved us by shedding the eternal blood.'
Like today's clergy, Mithrasian priests acknowledged a 'Last Supper' and performed baptisms first with water and then 'with the spirit'.
According to D Jason Cooper, (Mithras: Mysteries and Initiation Rediscovered, Red Wheel, 1996), the Mithrasians had a 'Last Supper' which, like the modern Communion or Eucharist, included wine as a symbol of sacrificial blood.
"Bread in wafers, or small loaves marked with a cross, was used to symbolise flesh," he writes.
"As to the future, the initiate into Mithraism was guaranteed a righteous judgment and a happy immortality.
He felt secure about the judgment, for Mithra, the guardian of truth, would preside at the great assize which determined his eternal destiny.
According to the picture suggested by the Emperor Julian, Mithra was also the guide who assisted the soul on its heavenly journey and, finally, like a fond father, welcomed the soul to its heavenly home."
"... reborn and created for delights," and "you have saved us by the shedding of eternal blood."
Inscriptions in a Mithraeum (temple of Mithras) in Rome
Now ain't this pretty similar?
Name:roy •
Date: 03/04/07 16:57
A: I wrote from Istanbul Turkiye.
Referring your topic related to James Cameron’s new documentary about Jesus Christ. I describe my ideas as the following;
Jesus was a human being who was created resembling creation as Adam, made as God‘s speacial envoy and word. He was subject to death and resurrection as all other humans at the dooms day.[3:59]
He was not killed or crucified but the scenery was recepted as if he was crucified . In reality, he was never hanged, the person who hanged was resembled to him in the views of the enemy Israelites.[4:157,158]
He was not killed by enemies but survived till the natural death. [19:33]God has taken his life. They were not defeated by the enemies but on the contrary him and his supporter disciples and israelites defeated the enemies.[61:14]
These are the statements written 1430 years ago by Quran. It is believed by heart by billions of muslims, as a prerequisite to be accepted into Islam. Maybe out of bias, or fear of sameness they prefer to ignore what is claimed. It is surprising that modern world is barely aware of this fact or they blind their eyes with superstition. Christ, he disciples and his followers were also muslims who were ordered with salat (prayer) and zekat ( voluntary wealth distribution).
The views above is supported with the related verses of Quran as below. Some of the ideas has been tought by various western writers,which are noted as well.
You may further make your research in english Quran at the link below.
For example ; word of “Christ” I found this link: http://www.kuranmeali.com/arama.asp?kelim-e=Christ&meal=yusufali&sure=hepsi
word- of “Jesus” I found this link:
http://www.kuranmeali.com/arama.asp?ke-lime=jesus&meal=yusufali&sure=hepsi
Sura- - 4 Women (Al-Nesaa')
[4:157] And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - They slew him not nor crucified, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain,
[4:158] Instead, GOD raised him to Him; GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.
[4:159] Everyone among the people of the scripture was required to believe in him before his death. On the Day of Resurrection, he will be a witness against them.
[4:171] O people of the scripture, do not transgress the limits of your religion, and do not say about GOD except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was a messenger of GOD, and His word that He had sent to Mary, and a revelation from Him. Therefore, you shall believe in GOD and His messengers. You shall not say, "Trinity." You shall refrain from this for your own good. GOD is only one god. Be He glorified; He is much too glorious to have a son. To Him belongs everything in the heavens and everything on earth. GOD suffices as Lord and Master.
Sura - 19 Mary (Maryam)
[19:33] And peace be upon me the day I was born, the day I die, and the day I get resurrected."
[19:34] That was Jesus, the son of Mary, and this is the truth of this matter, about which they continue to doubt.
[19:35] It does not befit GOD that He begets a son, be He glorified. To have anything done, He simply says to it, "Be," and it is.
[19:36] He also proclaimed, "GOD is my Lord and your Lord; you shall worship Him alone. This is the right path."
*19:36 This is similar to the statement attributed to Jesus in the Gospel of John 20:17.
Sura - 5 The Feast (Al-Ma'edah)
[5:72] Pagans indeed are those who say that GOD is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah himself said, "O Children of Israel, you shall worship GOD; my Lord and your Lord." Anyone who sets up any idol beside GOD, GOD has forbidden Paradise for him, and his destiny is Hell. The wicked have no helpers.
*Look at the sameness of Kuran: Sura - 5 ( The Feast ) Al-Ma'edah and Bible Matta 7:21-23
*5:72-76 In John 20:17, we see that Jesus taught that he was neither God, nor the son of God. Many theologians have concluded, after careful research, that today's Christianity is not the same Christianity taught by Jesus. Two outstanding books on this subject are "The Myth of God Incarnate" (The Westminster Press, Philadelphia, 1977) and The "Mythmaker" (Harper & Row, New York, 1986). On the front jacket of "The Mythmaker" we read the following statement:
" ...Hyam Maccoby presents new arguments to support the view that Paul, not Jesus, was the founder of Christianity....it was Paul alone who created a new religion through his vision of Jesus as a divine Saviour who died to save humanity."
Sura - 3 The Amramites ( Ali-'Imran)
[3:55] Thus, GOD said, "O Jesus, I am terminating your life, raising you to Me, and ridding you of the disbelievers. I will exalt those who follow you above those who disbelieve, till the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is the ultimate destiny of all of you, then I will judge among you regarding your disputes.
[3:59] The example of Jesus, as far as GOD is concerned, is the same as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, "Be," and he was.
[3:60] This is the truth from your Lord; do not harbor any doubts.
Sura - 61 The Column (Al-Suff)
[61:6] Recall that Jesus, son of Mary, said, "O Children of Israel, I am GOD's messenger to you, confirming the Torah and bringing good news of a messenger to come after me whose name will be even more praised (Ahmad)." Then, when he showed them the clear proofs, they said, "This is profound magic."
*Sameness of Sura - 61 The Column (Al-Suff) and Bible İsiah 45:21,22
Psalm 99:9 Timothy 1:17 good news fro sneding another prophet called Ahmad(Hz Mohammad) or Pheraklid (praised)= Ahmad
[61:14] O you who believe, be GOD's supporters, like the disciples of Jesus, son of Mary. When he said to them, "Who are my supporters towards GOD," they said, "We are GOD's supporters." Thus, a group from the Children of Israel believed, and another group disbelieved. We helped those who believed against their enemy, until they won.
Sura - 3 The Amramites ( Ali-'Imran)
[3:51] "GOD is my Lord and your Lord; you shall worship Him alone. This is the right path."
[3:52] When Jesus sensed their disbelief, he said, "Who are my supporters towards GOD?" The disciples said, "We are GOD's supporters; we believe in GOD, and bear witness that we are submitters / muslims."
*3:51 This is precisely what Jesus is quoted to say throughout the New Testament. See for example the Gospel of John 20:17, and the book "Jesus: Myths and Message" by Lisa Spray, Ch. 4 (Universal Unity, Fremont, CA 1992).
Name:Pat •
Date: 03/04/07 17:00
A: XVI. -- MITHRA OF PERSIA CRUCIFIED, 600 B.C.
This Persian God, "slain upon the cross to make atonement for mankind, and to take away the sins of the world."
He was reputedly born on the twenty-fifth day of December, and crucified on a tree.
The list of crucified Gods is full.
Devatat of Siam, Ixion of Rome, Apollonius of Tyana in Cappadocia, are all reported in history as having died the death of the cross.
ORIGIN OF THE BELIEF OF THE CRUCIFIXION OF GODS
It has always been presumed that death, and especially death by crucifixion, involved the highest state of suffering possible to be endured by mortals. Hence, the Gods must suffer in this way as an example of courage and fortitude, and to show themselves willing to undergo all the affliction and misery incident to the lot, and unavoidable to the lives of their devoted worshipers. They must not only be equal, but superior to their subjects in this respect. Hence, they would not merely die, but choose, or at least uncomplainingly submit to the most ignoble and ignominious mode of suffering death that could be devised, and that was crucifixion. This gave the highest finishing touch to the drama.
And thus the legend of the crucifixion became the crowning chapter, the aggrandizing episode in the history of their lives. It was presumed that nothing less than a God could endure such excruciating tortures without complaining.
CRUCIFIXION OF CHRISHNA OF INDIA, 1200 B.C.
CRUCIFIXION OF THE HINDOO SAKIA, 600 B.C.
THAMMUZ OF SYRIA CRUCIFIED, 1160 B.C.
CRUCIFIXION OF WITTOBA OF THE TELINGONESIC, 552 B.C.
IAO OF NEPAUL CRUCIFIED, 622 B.C.
HESUS OF THE CELTIC DRUIDS CRUCIFIED, 834 B.C.
QUEXALCOTE OF MEXICO CRUCIFIED, 587 B.C.
QUIRINUS OF ROME CRUCIFIED, 506 B.C.
(AESCHYLUS) PROMETHEUS CRUCIFIED, 547 B.C.
CRUCIFIXION OF THULIS OF EGYPT, 1700 B.C.
CRUCIFIXION OF INDRA OF TIBET, 725 B.C.
ALCESTOS OF EURIPIDES CRUCIFIED, 600 B.C.
ATYS OF PHRYGIA CRUCIFIED, 1170 B.C.
CRITE OF CHALDEA CRUCIFIED, 1200 B.C
BALI OF ORISSA CRUCIFIED, 725 B.C.
MITHRA OF PERSIA CRUCIFIED, 600 B.C.
Name:ArmyStallion05 •
Date: 03/05/07 5:43
A: We are all God's creation and if you cast judgement on any fellow man and his belief, then your are wrong. God created all beings and gave us the capacity to learn and to be something great. It klills me to know that people wont even listen, and have an open mind to what all is out there. What the heck, were all wrong...but I do KNOW one thing and that is The Truth Will Stand When The World Is On Fire! It seems to be getting aweful hot lately too!
Name:bigpundaddy •
Date: 03/05/07 5:50
A: Authorized version eh. mmmmmm interest to state that. Who authorized it? You, your Pastor, Jesus or God himself? I am really curious who did. Also, did you find that in the fiction or non fiction section? Bought online or at your local christian store?
Name:bigpundaddy •
Date: 03/05/07 5:52
A: AmyStallion, Questions for you? Do you know what a pagan or wiccan is? Do you know the definition of open minded?
Name:Gerri •
Date: 03/05/07 6:01
A: It's clear from your comments that you have neither studied the bible OR the history of religion. Yours are the grade school, blind faith comments my girlfriends used to make after a ruler lashing from the nuns. Jesus message was to worship GOD - not him. (As a Jew, that he was - he would have found this as blasphemous as worshiping a golden calf - and yet we pin him up on the cross and worship him in a way HE would have found abhorent. How ironic. Further - we do not worship HIS sabbath - Fri -Sat at sundown. We worship on Sundays because "Ra" the sun god - was worshiped by the Roman's on Sunday and when they moved from polytheism to Roman Catholic - THEY changed Jesus' sabbath to Sunday. Read a book - PLEASE! Surely royalty can afford a trip to Barnes and Noble.
I recommend you purchase "From Jesus to Christ" - a documentary about the history of religion (who christianity formed). It's available on PBS. The King James bible (1500s) is an altered version of the original Roman Catholic version that was in Latin. King James took it upon himself to delete a few sections and convert the language to English. If you believe it word for word - that's your perogative - however, it's only testimony to your poor education in the history of how Christianity evolved.
The truth is that you do not KNOW what he did or didn't do - married - fathered children. You weren't there. It's just what you BELIEVE - big difference. What people believe - doesn't make it TRUE....particularly when there is much compelling evidence to the contrary.
But fear not - the church does such a good job brainwashing people - that scientific proof positive will be denied by "believers"
Such people remind me of a guy and his son who were on line in front of me at the post office. He called Al Gore a liar and said Global Warming was BS. Does that make him right - hmmmmmmm I think I'm gonna stick with the Harvard scholars and believe that that guys was simply an opinionated ignoramus - but hey - that's his problem.
The EVIDENCE is compelling open your eyes and be OPEN to TRUTH. Jesus would've wanted it that way.
Name:bigpundaddy •
Date: 03/05/07 6:13
A: Nice way of putting that Gerri.
Name:Wes Boll •
Date: 03/05/07 19:17
A: I respect your faith,but you should be asking, Why, who and where are the bones, doesn't matter if they belonged to Jesus, can't be just digging up bones of an entire family and not know where we put them and how we marked them!!!Wow
Name:OpenMinded •
Date: 03/05/07 21:15
A: Jesus is alive and in heaven at the right hand of God the Father. He did not marry or father children.
I don't think anyone is questioning weather Jesus is alive or real. However, unless you were with Jesus, I beg to differ that you know for a fact that he never got married or fathered a child.
Name:anne •
Date: 03/06/07 1:53
A: Alexandra,
Jesus' purpose was not to be perfect...but to be human!!Yes he has shed blood and tears and remission of sins...and why are you to know that he has acceptted a wife and fathered a child... so be it!!!!!He was and is a MAN!!!!!!!!!I I do not believe your royaly ancestry, for there is no other than the Lord.. Royalty is just a made-up game that well-dressed peasants play!!!Funny you are not a Christian
Name:HeatherC0320 •
Date: 03/06/07 2:00
A: Pat, you rock!
Name:shofyke •
Date: 03/07/07 3:49
A: so the word of god didn't appear until the 17th century(i think), and in england at that. any holy book named after a political figure i surely give credence to.
Name:KRS •
Date: 03/07/07 3:54
A: Pat, a lot of these attributions to Mithra are from books written well after the New Testament (with Mithra, if I recall correctly, they are using fourth and fifth century works); thats why scholars have, since the fifties, have realized that the various gnostic origin theories of the Bible are, at best, an exercise in begging the question.
Name:KRS •
Date: 03/07/07 3:57
A: Gerri, the King James is not based on the Latin, and you make some other errors, things I've noted on this site so many times I'd rather not type it out again. You probably need to find a better source of data than the PBS special you're touting; I saw part of it, and as an NT scholar, I really wasn't impressed.
Name:pat7the7avenger •
Date: 03/07/07 9:33
A: Kind of funny how much of the worlds' histoy was influnced by those who had no knowledge of the specific god you choose to exonorate. Funny how quickly Rome fell after Nero forsake science and latched on to the catholic church. Please look out across the vastness of History and relize we are but a speck therin. Connect the dots in the evolution of our many modernday faiths, and what this discovery implies should it prove inconclusivly true. For me the simple deductions used to draw the conclusion that this was the tomb of The Christ are enough. Sorry if you need a 2,ooo year old smoking gun. All I need is an open mind.
Thank you. and bless your passion for your faith
Name:roy •
Date: 03/07/07 11:43
A: Overloving Jesus by his followers brought him to the stage sharing power of God. It remains the same mistake and danger for Muslims to their prophets or imams.
The findings of him may or may not be the real tomb of Jesus( personally I think remote possibility~ because if it was; it should have been known and respected by people for two thousand years).
However the importance of the concept is Christ was not any God. God strongly forbids paradise; anyone who claims Christ or any partner share to His Throne. Hundreds of verses written on this topic only because of people have diverted from the true path. Early Christians have changed the Bible according to power hungry Byzantene ruler & bishops wishes at year around 300 AD. The hypothesis and proof of Christ created fatherless but to be a mere human being is very important to us from this point. Quran persistently renounces the notion of “Trias” and defines it as the only unforgivable sin could be made to Him.
2 AL BAQARAH (The Heifer). 213
3 AL `IMRAN (The Family of `Imran). 19
Each of the primary religions teach the same general rule, but perhaps uses different words and stories to give examples of how to live those virtues.
2 AL BAQARAH (The Heifer). 213 Mankind was one single nation, and Allah sent Messengers with glad tidings and warnings; and with them He sent the Book in truth, to judge between people in matters wherein they differed; but the People of the Book, after the clear Signs came to them, did not differ among themselves, except through selfish contumacy. Allah by His Grace guided the Believers to the Truth, concerning that wherein they differed. For Allah guides whom He will to a path that is straight.
3 AL `IMRAN (The Family of `Imran). 19 The religion before Allah is Islam (submission to his will): nor did the People of the Book dissent therefrom except through envy of each other, after knowledge had come to them. But if any deny the Signs of. Allah, Allah is swift in calling to account.
Name:loganathompson •
Date: 03/07/07 12:09
A: "It's clear from your comments that you have neither studied the bible OR the history of religion."
Oh, Oh, gerri, apparently you would be one of who is true when it is said, "You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving....they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes" MT 13:14,15
"Jesus message was to worship GOD - not him. (As a Jew, that he was - he would have found this as blasphemous as worshiping a golden calf - and yet we pin him up on the cross and worship him in a way HE would have found abhorent. How ironic."
Gerri....dude c'mon man. have you never read the following passages.." Then Jesus declared, ' I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never go thirsty." JN 6:35, or what about, "..he said(Jesus), ' Do you believe in the Son of Man?' ,'Who is he sir?', the man asked....Jesus said, ' You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you.' Then the man said, ' Lord, I believe', and he worshipped him." JN 9:35-38
"Further - we do not worship HIS sabbath - Fri -Sat at sundown. We worship on Sundays because "Ra" the sun god - was worshiped by the Roman's on Sunday and when they moved from polytheism to Roman Catholic - THEY changed Jesus' sabbath to Sunday."
Acts 20:7 "On the first day of the week we came together to break bread."
Christ rose on the first day of the week-thats why christians came together on sunday instead of saturday, to celebrate the resurrection of the Lord. And they did this before Constantine's edict in 312 a.d.
"The truth is that you do not KNOW what he did or didn't do - married - fathered children. You weren't there. It's just what you BELIEVE - big difference. What people believe - doesn't make it TRUE....particularly when there is much compelling evidence to the contrary."
And what compelling evidence is there to the contrary? The gospel of phillip? the gospel of judas? both examples where written in the 2nd century a.d., long after all the eye witnesses were dead. The 4 gospels, matthew, mark, luke, john were written when the eyewitness were still alive. Mark being the earliest, Matthew, Luke were next, and then John was written by the apostle John who was with Jesus from the beginning of his minisrtry. eyewitness accounts are the most trustworthy evidence we have.
"But fear not - the church does such a good job brainwashing people - that scientific proof positive will be denied by "believers."
Again, what 'scientific' proof positive do you have?
"The EVIDENCE is compelling open your eyes and be OPEN to TRUTH. Jesus would've wanted it that way."
Well gerri, looks like you need to look at the evidence again for yourself. and take a little bit of your own advice, "the evidence is compelling, open your eyes and be open to truth........Jesus would've wanted it that way"
thank you
Name:Howard •
Date: 03/07/07 19:12
A: Jesus was a man who became a G-d. It is a process that G-d the Father has enacted as His Work. The work is known as "bringing to pass the immortal lives of His children" That's just happens to be you and me. The fact that it has occured prior to it happening to Jesus who becomes a Christos is not alarming, rather in keeping with "things being in G-ds time" Only the Father can reveal the Son and only the Son can reveal the Father. As all of creation is "of Him, by Him and through Him", we are also like Him. This is in direct keeping with what He said about us as "being made in His Image". The great awakening or "resurrection" is just as much one of a "conscious awakening from the dead" as it also is an "in the flesh" commanded experience for us to have. If one is able to read John the Revelator with the proper Keys to the Revelation one is going to see how the Primitive Church "taught to those who where, of a specific age, righteous enough and men of good spirit the Mysteries of Christ. " Indeed Johns writings although very purposed veiled, coded and hidden in understanding to this very day from those theologians and religious naysayers who made "Jesus into a God and worshipped Him" rather than listen to what he said. IS JOHN THE REVELATOR'S PERSONAL EXPERIENCE OF SACRED INITIATION INTO THE MYSTERIES OF CHRIST, THE CHURCH OF THE FIRST BORN. The Great Conqueror described in his writings is to be YOU and I, overcoming the flesh, the carnal man, the natural enemy of G-d and becoming a spiritual being, Born of the Spirit.
All of His Children, regardless of what ever religious belief system they have is invited by the Ruach ha Kodesh, the Holy Spirit to be given the free gift of Eternal Life, the very fruit of the Tree of Life and tho become Perfect as even He is Perfect, a Holy Nation, an Eternal Being, made in the Image of the Father, who like the rightful son or daughter of the Father has become just like in whom they are a reflected image. This is happening right now before your very eyes even as you read this message. It is GOD THE FATHER OF ALL CREATIONS WORK, not some church or religious charismatic. It is one on ONE, it is "The Mark", it is the Gift, it is the Pearl of Great Price for Jew and Gentile, all of His Children...and it is His Gift. Jeremiah said that in the end times "Man would be taught directly of G-d" no need for human intervention. If you want to experiene your ETERNAL NATURE, How you are to become
like Christ, a messiah. Then begin the process today by : repenting of your old belief systems that have held your soul captive to false doctrines and the arm of flesh belief systems. Wipe the slate clean, the world is not flat. We are spirit not flesh. Ask G-d regardless of what your current religious persuasion might be, Jew, Gentile, Taoist, Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, athiest, what ever, for the cognitive experience of Being Born of the Spirit so that you actually KNOW GOD and become a co-creator with Jesus who also became a Christ and eternal being. Finally, keep the only two important conscious head spaces there really are; Love One Another, and Love God with all of your mind, might and heart. In so doing you also, like many every day have their "appointed time" and "resurrection" with the Father.
Name:loganathompson •
Date: 03/07/07 21:14
A: I am amazed...really. where do you people come up with these ideas!......anyways, you people who say that later christians turned Christ into God, (alot of you people would say the council at Nicea did it, when in fact they didnt change anything, just confirmed what everybody already knew to be the truth about Christ as recorded in the Bible.), what do you say to the Bible verses like John 8:58 that reads, "I tell you the truth,' Jesus answered,'before Abraham was born, I am!'' Which is a reference to Exodus chapter 3:14 where Moses asks God, " Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'The God of our fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, ' What is his name?' Then what shall I tell them?" God said to moses,' I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM' has sent me to you."
Another example of Jesus claiming to be God is that, who has the authority to forgive sins? Only God alone. 2 Chr. 7:14 states," if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from Heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land." And yet, to you alls surprise Jesus claimed to have the authority to forgive sin! Mark 2:10 says,"But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority to forgive sins..." See also Mt 9:1-8
Thats just a few examples from scripture. And if your gonna make a claim about what Jesus said or didn't say, make sure you use his words. not your own imagination.
(seriuosly! have any of you people who make these claims actually read the entire new testament?)
Name:sadinoel •
Date: 03/07/07 21:18
A: You all don't need to argue theology when SCIENCE already refutes the data completely.
It's a bogus "study".
Who are you going to believe? A movie director and the "Naked Archaeologist"" or 99.999% of the rest of the scientific community.
Ok case closed let's move on nothing to see here people. :)
Name:sweetandsimple •
Date: 03/08/07 4:21
A: says you...lol
Name:mark •
Date: 03/08/07 16:13
A: Hi Alexandra,
At no time did anyone involved in the making of this film say that Jesus was not ressurected!
Christians, you all have a responsibility to understand the difference between ressurection and ascension!
It was the bodily ressurection that redeemed the world not a bodily ascension!
Why couldn't Jesus have been a normal jewish man who would have been expected to be married and have started a family by His age at the time of His death? They would have travelled with Him and need not have been a hinderance to His ministry.
Why would a "Bible believing Christian" have a problem accepting either one of these points?
sincerely and courteously,
mark
Name:roy •
Date: 03/11/07 13:29
A: Why should God be so complex not to be understood by common man? Does He address only to the scholars? If so why He held the common responsible what He says and forbids? Is He so cruel to punish those from which reasons that common people has no clue to understand?
Islam has brought the most clear understanding of God and definition of Christ for whom who wants to find out or whom God wants to reveal and let him be.
Saying God is three in one context but, One made up of three, no one can realise what is going on… How is three agree on ruling on universe that there is no disagreement between them? If God decides to extinct Jesus and Virgin Mary who will stop Him from it? How three in spiritual and matter decided to come together to send somepart of three among those miniscule sized peasants and didnt guess one piece of God will be killed there by torture? Wasnt there any other way to save people from sins rather to sacrifice one piece of God? How was it done before Christ (are they only comunity to be saved as majority of jews also claim as favored nation)? One of gods gave up divine and such sort of things are just fables from the Greek mythology. Is there any thema difference in stories with Zeus who hypothetically lived on Olympos, some other god had stolen fire from him, and such nonsence and complex stories. (Some Greeks gave rebirth a new religion on that belief and ask recognition by parliament in Greece today.)
Please be simple and come to your senses to find real God in your heart with peace. It will calm you down if you found Him. Searching thousands of pages but not spending time on the most referred and read book ~Quran is so big loss for you.
Christian Church claims The gospels, most especially John, indicate that Christ was not taken because the "peasants" (actually the temple guard and probably some Roman soldiers as well) over powered Him, but because He went to his death willingly. “
Guard, soldier ect.. has no difference than peasant comparing with God as former are made up all from human. No matter what is the position of human ~ temple guard or Roman soldiers or even todays atomic powered soldiers may not possibly over power even small evidence of God let alone God himself.
“Going to his death willing” is another made-up story. Too unlogical to be devine. All science, philosophy, antropology, history, logic, nature, biolgy, cosmology, physics, theology (christianity except this incident) strives the essence of existance not extinction, natural selection, wish of living - not dieing.
On the contrary Christ must ask God to live on to save his people by preaching (He lived and won over non believers~Islamic view, otherwise no christians would have been mentioned today~my opinion). Moses, and Abraham has been saved by God with two miracles ( Red sea divide and fire becoming serene.)
If our prophet does something “going to his death willingly” we must wish the same thing as good followers. Why don’t you dare to wish some unlogical thing then?;
We will all go death willingly to save others!!
I only believe the brotherhood to be adhered by man of any race, wealth, religion or sex. Beause they are equal and only be better than other in terms of observing God’s wishes. The religions come from same God although Jewish and Christians refuse to accept it, Islam is saying similar things plus improvement open to scientific evidence and criticism of any sort (except depicting or dishonoring holy figures). Actually encouraging debate.
God does not need peoples recognition of the latest versions of what He says. That’s why He says keep your own faith as Christian or Jew but don’t commit sin of Trinity or false claims against Me or Jesus because I am the only One. He does not accept religions from those who curses Him in that Trias way, and will not forgive those (only sin NOT to be forgiven) .
If the trias is not accepted at Byzantene time Council 300 AD. It would have been less likely to get acceptance by plural gods greek society of that time and would have been difficult to unite them. Imperialism was on the scene that time, not now.
On the other hand if Church didnt defend their position strongly against other religions, there would have been no reason of existence of them and the priests and kings had to give up huge wealth and power over society. The latter religion forbids any devine class, rabbis, or super powered ruler, not to mention some papacy who claim to be the shadow and replica of God on earth! (another form of Imperialism)
I hope it helps the claims of Jesus was a dieable, marryable, child conceive causable and tomb burriable (yet to be proven) human with flesh and blood created by God’s word to Mary.
Name:Red •
Date: 03/11/07 14:24
A: Roy , islam is just another brainwashing religion. Ive read the Koran.... several times. And while there are some moments of profound wisdsom, they dont come close to the Moral teachings Jesus gave.
Reading the Koran with an open mind, leaves me with a general impression that the Author was really just Pissed off.......
Name:Pat •
Date: 03/11/07 17:12
A: Red wrote:
Roy , islam is just another brainwashing religion. Ive read the Koran.... several times. And while there are some moments of profound wisdsom, they dont come close to the Moral teachings Jesus gave.
Reading the Koran with an open mind, leaves me with a general impression that the Author was really just Pissed off.......
Pat wrote:
The Koran, Mohammed and Islam were a Vatican creation in order to have them eventually exterminate the Jews and eventually uproot the Jews from Israel.
The Vatican wants to control Israel and rule the world from Jerusalem on the Temple Mount. Eventually the Muslims mosques will be blown up by Vatican Orders to send of the last blow.
The Vatican would love to see millions of Muslims and Jews die by war confrontations and perhaps by a few nuclear bombs. They still want to evangelize everyone to Jesus Christ and to Catholic dogmas and doctrines at any costs.
How the Vatican created Islam' link posted bellow
Arabs fell victim to one of the most clever plans ever devised by the powers of darkness. Early Christians went everywhere with the gospel setting up small churches, but they met heavy opposition. Both the Jews and the Roman government persecuted the believers in Christ to stop their spread. But the Jews rebelled against Rome, and in 70 AD, Roman armies under General Titus smashed Jerusalem and destroyed the great Jewish temple which was the heart of Jewish worship...in fulfillment of Christ's prophecy in Matthew 24:2.
The persecution against Christians was useless as they continued to lay down their lives for the gospel of Christ.
A counterfeit "Christian" religion to destroy the work of early Christian and Jews was created began in the writings of the 'early church fathers'.
"It was through their writings that a new religion would take shape. The statue of Jupiter in Rome was eventually called St. Peter, and the statue of Venus was changed to the Virgin Mary. The site chosen for its headquarters was on one of the seven hills called 'Vaticanus', the place of the diving serpent where the Satanic temple of Janus stood.
"The great counterfeit religion was Roman Catholicism, called 'Mystery, Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots and Abominations of the Earth'- Revelation 17:5. She was raised up to block the gospel, slaughter the believers in Christ, establish religions, create wars and make the nations drunk with the wine of her fornication as we will see.
"Three major religions have one thing in common - each has a holy place where they look for guidance. Roman Catholicism looks to the Vatican as the Holy City. The Jews look to the wailing wall in Jerusalem, and the Muslims look to Mecca as their Holy City. Each group believes that they receive certain types of blessings for the rest of their lives for visiting their holy place. In the beginning, Arab visitors would bring gifts to the 'House of God', and the keepers of the Kaaba were gracious to all who came. Some brought their idols and, not wanting to offend these people, their idols were placed inside the sanctuary. It is said that the Jews looked upon the Kaaba as an outlying tabernacle of the Lord with veneration until it became polluted with idols.
"In a tribal contention over a well(Zamzam) the treasure of the Kaaba and the offerings that pilgrims had given were dumped down the well and it was filled with sand - it disappeared. Many years later Adb Al-Muttalib was given visions telling him where to find the well and its treasure. He became the hero of Mecca, and he was destined to become the grandfather of Muhammad. Before this time, Augustine became the bishop of North Africa and was effective in winning Arabs to Roman Catholicism, including whole tribes. It was among these Arab converts to Catholicism that the concept of looking for an Arab prophet developed.
"Muhammad's father died from illness and sons born to great Arab families in places like Mecca were sent into the desert to be suckled and weaned and spend some of their childhood with Bedouin tribes for training and to avoid the plagues in the cities.
"After his mother and grandfather also died, Muhammad was with his uncle when a Roman Catholic monk learned of his identity and said, "Take your brother's son back to his country and guard him against the Jews, for by god, if they see him and know of him that which I know, they will construe evil against him. Great things are in store for this brother's son of yours."
"The Roman Catholic monk had fanned the flames for future Jewish persecutions at the hands of the followers of Muhammad. The Vatican desperately wanted Jerusalem because of its religious significance, but was blocked by the Jews.
"Another problem was the true Christians in North Africa who preached the gospel. Roman Catholicism was growing in power, but would not tolerate opposition. Somehow the Vatican had to create a weapon to eliminate both the Jews and the true Christian believers who refused to accept Roman Catholicism. Lookng to North Africa, they saw the multitudes of Arabs as a source of manpower to do their dirty work. Some Arabs had become Roman Catholic, and could be used in reporting information to leaders in Rome. Others were used in an underground spy network to carry out Rome's master plan to control the great multitudes of Arabs who rejected Catholicism. When 'St Augustine' appeared on the scene, he knew what was going on. His monasteries served as bases to seek out and destroy Bible manuscripts owned by the true Christians.
"The Vatican wanted to create a messiah for the Arabs, someone they could raise up as a great leader, a man with charisma whom they could train, and eventually unite all the non-Catholic Arabs behind him, creating a mighty army that would ultimately capture Jerusalem for the pope. In the Vatican briefing, Cardinal Bea told us this story:
'A wealthy Arabian lady who was a faithful follower of the pope played a tremendous part in this drama. She was a widow named Khadijah. She gave her wealth to the church and retired to a convent, but was given an assignment. She was to find a brilliant young man who could be used by the Vatican to create a new religion and become the messiah for the children of Ishmael. Khadijah had a cousin named Waraquah,, who was also a very faithful Roman Catholic and the Vatican placed him in a critical role as Muhammad's advisor. He had tremendous influence on Muhammad.
'Teachers were sent to young Muhammad and he had intensive training. Muhammad studied the works of St. Augustine which prepared him for his "great calling." The Vatican had Catholic Arabs across North Africa spread the story of a great one who was about to rise up among the people and be the chosen one of their God.
'While Muhammad was being prepared, he was told that his enemies were the Jews and that the only true Christians were Roman Catholic. He was taught that others calling themselves Christians were actually wicked impostors and should be destroyed. Many Muslims believe this.
'Muhammad began receiving "divine revelations" and his wife's Catholic cousin Waraquah helped interpret them. From this came the Koran. In the fifth year of Muhammad's mission, persecution came against his followers because they refused to worship the idols in the Kaaba.
'Muhammad instructed some of them to flee to Abysinnia where Negus, the Roman Catholic king accepted them because Muhammad's views on the virgin Mary were so close to Roman Catholic doctrine. These Muslims received protection from Catholic kings because of Muhammad's revelations.
'Muhammad later conquered Mecca and the Kaaba was cleared of idols. History proves that before Islam came into existence, the Sabeans in Arabia worshiped the moon-god who was married to the sun-god. They gave birth to three goddesses who were worshipped throughout the Arab world as "Daughters of Allah" An idol excavated at Hazor in Palestine in 1950's shows Allah sitting on a throne with the crescent moon on his chest.
'Muhammad claimed he had a vision from Allah and was told, "You are the messenger of Allah." This began his career as a prophet and he received many messages. By the time Muhammad died, the religion of Islam was exploding. The nomadic Arab tribes were joining forces in the name of Allah and his prophet, Muhammad.
'Some of Muhammad's writings were placed in the Koran, others were never published. They are now in the hands of high ranking holy men (Ayatollahs) in the Islamic faith.'
"When Cardinal Bea shared with us in the Vatican, he said, these writings are guarded because they contain information that links the Vatican to the creation of Islam. Both sides have so much information on each other, that if exposed, it could create such a scandal that it would be a disaster for both religions.
"In their "holy" book, the Koran, Christ is regarded as only a prophet. If the pope was His representative on earth, then he also must be a prophet of God. This caused the followers of Muhammad to fear and respect the pope as another "holy man."
"The pope moved quickly and issued bulls granting the Arab generals permission to invade and conquer the nations of North Africa. The Vatican helped to finance the building of these massive Islamic armies in exchange for three favors:
1. Eliminate the Jews and Christians (true believers, which they called infidels).
2. Protect the Augustinian Monks and Roman Catholics.
3. Conquer Jerusalem for "His Holiness" in the Vatican.
"As time went by, the power of Islam became tremendous - Jews and true Christians were slaughtered, and Jerusalem fell into their hands. Roman Catholics were never attacked, nor were their shrines, during this time. But when the pope asked for Jerusalem, he was surprised at their denial! The Arab generals had such military success that they could not be intimidated by the pope - nothing could stand in the way of their own plan.
"Under Waraquah's direction, Muhammad wrote that Abraham offered Ishmael as a sacrifice. The Bible says that Isaac was the sacrifice, but Muhammad removed Isaac's name and inserted Ishmael's name. As a result of this and Muhammad's vision, the faithful Muslims built a mosque, the Dome of the Rock, in Ishmael's honor on the site of the Jewish temple that was destroyed in 70 AD. This made Jerusalem the 2nd most holy place in the Islam faith. How could they give such a sacred shrine to the pope without causing a revolt?
"The pope realized what they had created was out of control when he heard they were calling "His Holiness" an infidel. The Muslim generals were determined to conquer the world for Allah and now they turned toward Europe. Islamic ambassadors approached the pope and asked for papal bulls to give them permission to invade European countries.
"The Vatican was outraged; war was inevitable. Temporal power and control of the world was considered the basic right of the pope. He wouldn't think of sharing it with those whom he considered heathens.
"The pope raised up his armies and called them crusades to hold back the children of Ishmael from grabbing Catholic Europe. The crusades lasted centuries and Jerusalem slipped out of the pope's hands.
"Turkey fell and Spain and Portugal were invaded by Islamic forces. In Portugal, they called a mountain village "Fatima" in honor of Muhammad's daughter, never dreaming it would become world famous.
"Years later when the Muslim armies were poised on the islands of Sardinia and Corsica, to invade Italy, there was a serious problem. The Islamic generals realized they were too far extended. It was time for peace talks. One of the negotiators was Francis of Assisi.
"As a result, the Muslims were allowed to occupy Turkey in a "Christian" world, and the Catholics were allowed to occupy Lebanon in the Arab world. It was also agreed that the Muslims could build mosques in Catholic countries without interference as long as Roman Catholicism could flourish Arab countries.
"Cardinal Bea told us in Vatican briefings that both the Muslims and Roman Catholics agreed to block and destroy the efforts of their common enemy, Bible-believing Christianm missionaries. Through these concordats, Satan blocked the children of Ishmael from a knowledge of Scripture and the truth.
"A light control was kept on Muslims from the Ayatollah down through the Islamic priests, nuns and monks. The Vatican also engineers a campaign of hatred between the Muslim Arabs and the Jews. Before this, they had co-existed peacefully.
"The Islamic community looks on the Bible-believing missionary as a devil who brings poison to the children of Allah. This explains years of ministry in those countries with little results.
"The next plan was to control Islam. In 1910, Portugal was going Socialistic. Red flags were appearing and the Catholic Church was facing a major problem. Increasing numbers were against the church.
"The Jesuits wanted Russia involved, and the location of this vision at Fatima could play a key part in pulling Islam to the Mother Church.
"In 1917, the Virgin appeared in Fatima. "The Mother of God" was a smashing success, playing to overflow crowds. As a result, the Socialists of Portugal suffered a major defeat.
"Roman Catholics world-wide began praying for the conversion of Russia and the Jesuits invented the Novenas to Fatima which they could perform throughout North Africa, spreading good public relations to the Muslim world. The Arabs thought they were honoring the daughter of Muhammad, which is what the Jesuits wanted them to believe.
"As a result of the vision of Fatima, Pope Pius XII ordered his Nazi army to crush Russia and the Orthodox religion and make Russia Roman Catholic." A few years after he lost World war II, Pope Pius XII startled the world with his phoney dancing sun vision to keep Fatima in the news. It was great religious show biz and the world swallowed it.
"Not surprisingly, Pope Pius was the only one to see this vision. As a result, a group of followers has grown into a Blue Army world-wide, totaling millions of faithful Roman Catholics ready to die for the blessed virgin.
"But we haven't seen anything yet. The Jesuits have their Virgin Mary scheduled to appear four or five times in China, Russia, and major appearance in the U.S.
"What has this got to do with Islam? Note Bishop Sheen's
statement: "Our Lady's appearances at Fatima marked the turning point in the history of the world's 350 million Muslims. After the death of his daughter, Muhammad wrote that she "is the most holy of all women in Paradise, next to Mary."
"He believed that the Virgin Mary chose to be known as Our Lady of Fatima as a sign and a pledge that the Muslims who believe in Christ's virgin birth, will come to believe in His divinity.
"Bishop Sheen pointed out that the pilgrim virgin statues of Our Lady of Fatima were enthusiastically received by Muslims in Africa, India, and elsewhere, and that many Muslims are now coming into the Roman Catholic Church."
A: Red,
So pity to have read Quran but couldn’t get the warm message out of it. It reveals itself as a bride only to those who is chosen. Sorry for the misfortune. You ve better not ridicule the Author, He may be angry with you.
There are several miracles mentioned in Quran at year of 620 AD. Some barely understood today, and many of the mysteries yet to be solved.
-Expansion of universe
-Creation from a nucleus
-Eclipses, paths of planets, galaxies
-Dual sexes of everything created
-Relativity of Time
-Flowing journey of sun in a path
-Source of light of sun; reflecting feature of moon
-Possibility of lunar voyage
-Surface layers to the pit
-Elipsoid shape of earth, arctic basins are at lower altitude
-Feature of wind as carrier of seed
-Measure of rain fall equals 500 million liter/year
-Water curtain at waterpasses between seas
-Flow of current at deep sea, darkness of depth
-Feature of mountains as balancing weight to the earth surface
-Movements of mountains as clouds, departing continents
-Earthquake break lines
-Evolution of petroleum
-Photosynthesis of plants
-Breathing is uneasy at increased altitudes
-Environmental problems as a result of man fault. Warning “keep the balance”
-Sexes in plants
-Female bee making the hove
-Communication ability in birds and ants…
-Texture of man from earth and water
-Creation starting from water
-Phases of baby creation in the womb
-Identification on tips of fingers
-Love between the couples
-Groups intermingle with marriages
-Spread of mankind from city of Mecca
-Sabeans, Magrib dam catastrophy,
-Yemen Ad Comunity Extinction Lost Pillars found recent years
-Lut Comunity, Sodom Gomorah being the lowest point on earth surface Jordan
-Haman name (Vice president for Paroah) revelas recently Egypt
-Paroah of Egypt killed at Red sea finding. His corpse analysed as hit to the rocks and left at sea for a long time
-Old testament and new testament correction, amendment of stories
-Romans good news of victory over Persians within 3-9 years that happend.
-Transporting of matter in light speeds
-Possibility of death of stars and sun
-Boiling of oceans as a scientific result of global warming caused by icebergs melt or at resurrection day
-Big bang and big inner downfall
-Seven layers above sky, and beneath earth down to pit.
These miraculous explanations may not awe you still? however you better check if they pass in Quran or not. There were many miracles performed at the time of Prophet Mohammed, but we cant prove them today scientifically, so I let them unmentioned.
Pat wrote: The Koran, Mohammed and Islam were a Vatican creation.
Roy Wrote:
There is no limit to imagination, and obsession of money, fame and satanic stories. Keep up these nonsence so that both catholic, muslim, christian, jews etc.. benefit more with publicity and curiosity.
Religion is something to be taken seriously by the vast majority of the universe. It makes nations and breaks them. Please be more careful.
Taking real names from history of holy people and institutions and adding fiction to them have made false heroes throughout centuries. But it made also great culprits to condemn themselves what they have done to billions of innocent peoples faith. There is no difference between bombing several temple and their made-up lies into beliefs.
My suggestion do not be vehicles to their evil purposes unless you truly believe in them.
These writers have nothing to loose with their conspiracy theories. You may check your ironic similar recent news comments on the website below. One difference they say they are making fun.
A: Roy,
Believe what you want. There is 1600 years of past Catholic Vatican terror.
The Bible and the Koran are full of attocities to keep the people in ignorance and in fear for full control of the masses.
Read your history.
Name:betty47 •
Date: 03/12/07 21:21
A: Thank you Pat and Joshua for wonderful postings. The truth is that these myths were around for hundreds of years before Christ. It's also true that some of the things Christ said were said by Rabbi's hundreds of years before Jesus. Alexander the Great claimed to be of a Virgin Mother. They said this at those times to convince people that they were seeing a great man. But does it mean that Christians should stop believing in Christ? No! The world does not need the violence that religions have spawned, but people do need comfort in times of crisis. And since all Abraham religions believe in one God, it doesn't really matter what we call him. Prayer heals and comforts and people should still do that.
Name:Red •
Date: 03/13/07 0:13
A: O.k. Roy,, Allah is gonna get me because I have a diffrent Opinion? Your God has absolutely with me because quite frankly, I dont believe. This old 'fear my God or else is getting mighty old these days. A freak blowing himself up does NOT impress me with his God. It only shows he left half his brain at the alter.
However, I am aware of the physical havoc that goes with being a nut, that is why I keep My Semi spot on at 100 yds.
Name:Red •
Date: 03/13/07 0:19
A: Btw, Until the "peacful " of your faith GET CONTROL of the suicidal murdering element that's loosely floating around your habitation ,I can not , nor will I consider any respect.
Name:roy •
Date: 03/13/07 11:48
A: Pat,
You may say as your tongue leads you to reach, hatred at your heart convinced you blind to the facts. I let you believe all the conspiracy theories the rest of them you have posted to the website here cl dagger something made in germany. How respectful claims they are! How clever evilish claims they are! I guess you identify yourself with them, the insane, comedy, websites which has no value other than sweet nonsence mumblings.
If you were intellectual enough you should have known Jews were saved from Spain by the Otoman (islamic king), 1500s during sloughtering of the king there. They were treated highest respected guests in various parts of the empire. Jews were and still is undiscriminated populace of turkish states. Only positive favoring has been granted to them throughout muslim states. Is it what you claim uprooting jews by muslims?
On the account to payback ! a Jew in greece of today had built museum at Ioanninia against turks, how supposedly cruel turks were to the greeks during war! They forgat biggest manhunt was in greece against jews during world war II, which turks didnot interfere, and again welcomed running jews .
You must read your history and take lessons not to try to make people enemy to each other. It is a bloody ball, like bumerang hitting to its initiator. Dont keep insulting to our prophet or any prophet in the world, it is not up to your swallow of knowledge what you are saying about those big figures. Let them be any prophet but a common man they influenced billions of people invited into peace, ethical living. Without them world would have been a jungle filled with evilish souls who screwing their sisters, burrying daughters, slaying brothers.
Qoran has promoted education at all respects starting with initial words “read” and the rest of it.
67 AL MULK (The Dominion). 1 1- Nun. BY THE PEN and by the (Record) which (men) write,
Proclaim! (OR READ!) In the name of thy Lord and Cherisher, who created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood:
Proclaim! And thy Lord is Most Bountiful,
He Who taught (THE USE OF) THE PEN,
Taught man that which he knew not.
Nay, but man doth transgress all bounds,
IN THAT HE LOOKETH UPON HIMSELF AS SELF-SUFFICIENT.
(The last word exactly describing you & similar people!)
95 AL TIN (The Fig). 1 -2
96 AL `ALAQ or IQRA' (Read!).3-7
Being part of the catholic, christian, muslim population living state, benefit their free circumstances, abundant resourses, wealth, power, brain/body hardwork of people and still cursing them must be the motto of yourslike jews. I am sure there are millions of good faith jews around.
You are unaware of the thousands of islamic scientists, which has caused Renaissance in Europe. The golden ages may not necessarily last 1400 years of any sects of people. It has lows and ups, zest of power and dark ages, study jews history in bible.
Last word: please have more respect to the great religions while critisizing them, think twice before throw mud at them.
Name:roy •
Date: 03/13/07 11:52
A: Red
Allah is so great to allow those not to punish and wait till dooms day. He gives all riches to these who even curse at Him on living. It should not get you encouraged further ridiculing, however there are other finite beings you hurt, who loves God of any numerous names in any religion being the only One. Do we play my God beats your Allah at kindergarten?
The suicidal attacks are burdening to islam reputation not supporting nor representing any good values, however it is way below to shadow the open and enlightening message Qoran gives out.
Suicidal elements are commenting upon the false attributes to their faith. They have to keep their life as well as not to attack those who does not force or help these; oust from their homes. These are one of the few alowance to kill others. Killing himself is forbidden and punished at forever hell, according to the belief. They even kill their fellow muslims claiming they are not enough or upto their muslim standards. Have you solved your problems addressing racizm, fanatic jewism, anti-semitizm or evangelism which claims millions of lives each year?
Name:Red •
Date: 03/13/07 21:35
A: Roy, In the U.S. we have Laws. And one of those Laws is that you cant shove your religion up peoples noses Forcibly. The Law makes no distiction between an Athiest, Christain, Muslim, jew or Druid. You just dont go around screwing with people.
Not only is there laws like that, American citizen have the right and duty to protect themselves on an induvidual basis, or a common one. Middle eastern Muslim countries tend to like Theocracies. Iron boot, religious freak governments. This is a big reason the U.S. fought for independence. To stay away from that kind of garbage governments.
On a Philisophical note, IM a peaceful man, but Im a careful one. I have comprimised endlessly to get along with whomever I have come in contact with in my life, regardless of political or religious reasons. And I have found that this the problem. Religions, yours, ours, their's, all tout peace love and utopia. THEY ARE ONLY WORDS. All three major faiths in the world are intolerate with one another on a philosophical level, and over the years it has spilled into the Physical realm. These religions are absolute in their authority, and only leach off societies. When thay run into trouble surviving in a civilization, an attempt is made for a theocracy. This is happening here there and everywhere.
People cant just be humans anymore, or just people, they have to be a 'religion', or some political dupe.
You claim like every other religious genious ,to know EVERYTHING about GOD. What heaven, hell, the afterlife, the pre-life, ect,ect,ect,ect,.
If religious people like you know so much, than how come you do good to get up out of bed in the morning?. Or balance your check book? If your car broke down, can you fix it? Do you know what's going on in your back yard right now? The ant wars, Eggs hatching in the nest's of your trees?
If you cant know simple things like these, how can you know all those deep God questions? FAITH???? Yeah, right...
Name:Achaney •
Date: 03/13/07 21:48
A: Right on Pat! I see you have your facts straight. In regards to all the christ like figures, I told this to a pastor one time in a debate, his excuse (as weel as others), is that Satan and his dominion went back in time or planted ahead these false christs before Jesus Christ came into the world! Despite the fact that Bible Scholars say that the prophecy of Jesus was hidden in the O.T. and that even God's angels didn't know about Christ to come. I think there confused and cant make up there minds.
Name:Achaney •
Date: 03/13/07 21:51
A: Hey Red, your are right. The laws to protect religion, EVEN THE FAKE ONES !
I live by the facts, and those facts are overwhelmingly proving Christianity to be fake.
Name:Red •
Date: 03/13/07 22:19
A: Achaney..... Their all fake..... They serve themselves and no God. That's why I suspect most people who claim not to believe that these are very possibily Jesu's bones, are denying it for other reasons . To protect the religion and it's intrinsic power in society. Remember, The big churches make ALOT of cash shoveling this crap, and they aint gonna give that up easily.
They damn well know better. A 10 year old knows when you die your body get's buried. Well so does every preacher, priest, minister, arch bishop, and Druid too. Their covering for the BUSNESS.
They know which side their bread is buttered on. Well, I say, it's nigh time these lazy people hit the unemployment line with the rest of us.
Name:Schwar3Kat •
Date: 03/14/07 2:32
A: Much of the discussion on this blog has become about religion rather than science and many of the arguments denigrate the posts made by religious people as worthless because the comments come from a religious perspective.
This is not helpful to the discussion. Even religious people can have valid arguments and we should refrain from throwing out the reasoning because the argument comes from a religious person.
There are basically two major life view perspectives represented here.
1. Those who believe that the universe could not have arisen out of nothing and therefore it has to have been created by a God.
2. Those who believe that it is more likely that the universe manifested out of something unknown than the alternative that an all powerful super intelligent god arose out of nothing and created the universe.
Whether Jesus rose again on the third day is irrelevant against this backdrop. Let's try and keep the discussion scientific and lets take on board all the arguments regardless of their source.
Name:Red •
Date: 03/14/07 2:47
A: That would be nice, but anyone who disagrees with this finding does not offer any 'Scientific" proof that it cant be. Their best claim is the math is flawed, yet know one on this site or anywhere else shows anything Scientific to dispute the finding and it' assumptions.
BtW, This subject is about religion too. A religious book and it's adherant's claims are in direct conflict with the finding's assumptions.
Until I see better scientific proof from those who disagree, I have to assume it is their RELIGION they are operating from. When I suspect that, than I will disput that stance. It's only logical.
Name:Nate Spain •
Date: 03/14/07 3:01
A: Schwar3Kat , thank you for your important input. You statement about examining the evidence, or circumstantial evidence, regardless of the source, is so imporant.
The Bible offers hints of the SURVIVAL of Jesus, for instance:
"Feel me and see that I am flesh and blood. For a spirit hath not flesh and blood as ye see me have."
A non-Christian CANNOT be held to religious doctrinal interpretations of the above sentences. When a non-Christian looks at those sentence [or even a Christian, if he's LOOKING], he will see that Jesus, after 3 days, was
1. Walking around
2. Hiding from the authorities, dressed as a gardener, or so it's claimed
3. Eating food ( "fish and a honeycomb")
4. Asking people to touch him, so that they could be assurred that he was OKAY--that he had SURVIVED; that his wounds were healing.
That's one piece of circumstantial evidence that can be put in the pot. Then, as I've indicated elsewhere, the are oral and written traditions, as well as physical evidence, in Kashmir, where it is believed he ended his days.
The Talpiot people claim to have unearthed evidence, and we shall see how far they get, as there is more to come out, they claim. We shall see.
In regard to your suggestion to look at ALL the evidence, or as much as possible, I have asked the people at the TOJ (Tomb of Jesus Christ) website to consider developing a comparsion chart that coldly compares the circumstantial evidence gathered at the Talpiot tomb, as well as Christian documents and other information in Israel, to the circumstantial evidence at the Rauza Bal (Roza Bal) tomb in Kashmir, as well as the Kashmiri and Indian documents and other information that exists in India, specifically in Kashmir.
If desired, the circumstantial evidence, if any, that places Jesus in France, England, Japan, or anywhere else can be included in this comparsion chart. Then it can be studied and weighed, to see which evidence is the most believable, accurate, and most likely.
I personally believe that when that is done, it will be concluded, and easily, that Yuz Asaf (Jesus the Gatherer) lies dead and buried under the Rauza Bal tomb, as the written and oral tradition, and certain markings inside the tomb, indicate.
Elsewhere, I gave a good list of books that mention the sojourn of Jesus to Kashmir. For more information, visit The Tomb of Jesus Christ Website at www.tombofjesus.com
Name:Red •
Date: 03/14/07 3:14
A: If that is true, then who are these people? A 1 to 600 longshot?
Name:Dez •
Date: 03/14/07 16:21
A: It always amazes me when any theological debate manifests how everyone is so resolute. I go to Church, I even sing in the Choir. I go for spiritual reasons. I don't hate anyone that doesn't share my exact idea about a higher being or religion. The thing that gets me is the quest for me (or any other believer) to provide scientific proof. Why do I need to do that? I already believe based on my own experiences. and no matter what I say, you'll continue to look for reasons to not believe. There is no scientific proof of a lot of things. Theories, yes. Proof? To me, my faith and experience is all the proof I need. You seek out hard core evidence from scientific studies. The sad thing is that much of this "proof" is an ever changing "theory" passed off as fact. I don't claim to know everything about God/Jesus. I just know I feel better when I talk to him and he has saved me despite myself. I've never gotten that feeling talking to a scientist. Science is a wonderful thing, but it is not the answer to every question.
Name:roy •
Date: 03/14/07 19:27
A: I dont believe those laws are effectively protecting US society from false claims of every religion. There are big billboards everywhere depicting “christ calls you”. banks and business either closes or puts jewish candle holders on the counters which is supposed to used serving clients. Is it shove religion up to the nose what you say? there were the worst cases of suicide in groups by the followers of a religion in the US. There were another prophet who had 50 rolce royce sedans, luxurious living, until secretary fled with fortune. How do you protect yor children from those crooks? it was not protection or freedom, it is outright ridiculing peoples beliefs, exploiting them. Please try go to a bank at hannukah. The mide ast governments are supported by american, british governments which one is more garbage you better decide on that. You are ruled by money barons not by the independence of common man. It must take another 100 years for you to wake up. Middle eastern rulers are on spot not by themselves but by secret backing of industrialised countries at the expense of suffering locals. 200 dies every day at iraq today.
Muslims neither tout peace love or utopia nor intolerant to other religions. i m not fanatic muslim or deep rooted inconvincable theologian but just a common muslim, objective in observations, searching for the truth. 25 christian or secular states emerged after 600 years rule of islamic Ottoman rule; todays people didnt fly there all from rest of europe, only this simple fact must prove you islam has been tolerant and at equal distance to all human being. israel, lebenan were two of them lived close to thousand years under muslim authority, jewish and christians were there having own temples without any complaint in peace with no fight, under simple lutenant soldier governance. Look now what is happening for the last 40 years after muslim left.
if i seem to know it all, sorry ! my humble profile which should have been in the place. i tell some claims of Qoran about these issues of God, heaven, hell, afterlife, pre-life, conditions of being eligible for the heaven according to my belief. it is same as islamic point of view rules to religion if you compare rules to science dealing with math or phisics or biology.
believing or not depends on individual. no shove up, no tout, no pressure…
its my privilage to write to you.
Name:joe joe •
Date: 03/15/07 5:23
A: You need to look at the facts. This is an issue that provides lots of evidence. I is very hard for me to believe to bible is the word of god. After all of the reading and researching that I have done the seems to be more evidence otherwise.
Name:roy •
Date: 03/15/07 11:07
A: Joe joe ,
We believe Jesus died and ascended to God, however not by crucifying but by natural death, after defeating enemy and well establishing His message to masses. we muslims believe that Bible once was the word of God but severely manupulated, and ammended by interest laden priests, and changed the main message of it. Yet still some sentences are original. Please continue your searches till something hits you for sure word of God. I recommend our book Qoran for review. If you still have some doubts call back again to me, if you are satisfied pray for me too.
http://www.kuranmeali.com/arama.asp?-kelime=Christ&meal=yusufali&sure=hepsi
Dont keep insulting to our prophet or any prophet in the world, it is not up to your swallow of knowledge what you are saying about those big figures. Let them be any prophet but a common man they influenced billions of people invited into peace, ethical living. Without them world would have been a jungle filled with evilish souls who screwing their sisters, burrying daughters, slaying brothers.
Qoran has promoted education at all respects starting with initial words “read” and the rest of it.
Pat wrote:
In all religion and in all races there are some very good people.
In the Bible in the Koran and in the Torah there are some very grave attrocited.
Roy this is reality my friend and here are some facts about Islam the Koran and the prophet Mohamed. Much are recorded facts and many ex Mulsims can attest to this.
One who claims to be a messenger of God is expected to live a saintly life. He must not be given to lust, he must not be a sexual pervert, and he must not be a rapist, a highway robber, a war criminal, a mass murderer or an assassin.
One who claims to be a messenger of God must have a superior character. He must stand above the vices of the people of his time.
Read your Koran Roy, and your history books.
Muhammad’s life is that of a gangster godfather. He raided merchant caravans, looted innocent people, massacred entire male populations and enslaved the women and children.
He raped the women captured in war after killing their husbands and told his followers that it is okay to have sex with their captives and their “right hand possessions” (Quran 33:50)
He assassinated those who criticized him and executed them when he came to power and became de facto despot of Arabia.
Muhammad was bereft of human compassion. He was an obsessed man with his dreams of grandiosity and could not forgive those who stood in his way. Muhammad was a narcissist like Hitler, Saddam or Stalin. He was astute and knew how to manipulate people, but his emotional intelligence was less evolved than that of a 6-year-old child. He simply could not feel the pain of others. He brutally massacred thousands of innocent people and pillaged their wealth. His ambitions were big and as a narcissist he honestly believed he is entitled to do as he pleased and commit all sorts of crimes and his evil deeds are justified
Read your Koran Roy and take a cursory look at the Quran revealing that this book is full of errors.
Quran is replete with scientific heresies, historic blunders, mathematical mistakes, logical absurdities, grammatical errors and ethical fallacies. It is badly compiled and it contradicts itself. There is nothing intelligent in this book let alone miraculous. Muhammad challenged people to produce a “Surah like it” or find an error therein, yet Muslims would kill anyone who dares to criticize it. In such a climate of hypocrisy and violence truth is the first casualty
Mohamed a pedophile
The Prophet Mohamed in the Islam religion married 'Aa'ishah when
she was six years old, and he consummated the marriage
with her when she was nine, and at that time he was over
fifty. The little girl was still playing with dolls.
Roy you ex religious leader Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, The Supreme Leader of Iran , 1979-89 put in place by the USA said in his official statements:
http://www.amcoptic.com/fatawy-_islamiah/ayatollah_khomeini.htm-
A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as young as a baby. However he should not penetrate, sodomising the child is OK. If the man penetrates and damages the child then he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life. This girl, however does not count as one of his four permanent wives. The man will not be eligible to marry the girls sister.
From Khomeini's book, "Tahrirolvasyleh", fourth volume, Darol Elm, Gom, Iran, 1990
Book Title Page/ Cover
Inside Cover of Book
Excerpt: Page [1] | Page [2]
[Mohammad (founder of Islam) The Pedophile]
It is better for a girl to marry in such a time when she would begin
menstruation at her husband's house rather than her father's home.
Any father marrying his daughter so young will have a permanent place in heaven. From Khomeini's book, "Tahrirolvasyleh", fourth volume, Darol Elm,Gom,Iran, 1990 [Mohammad (founder of Islam) The Pedophile]
A man can have sex with animals such as sheep¹s, cows, camels and so on. However he should kill the animal after he has his orgasm. He should not sell the meat to the people in his own village, however selling the meat to the next door village should be fine.
From Khomeini's book,
"Tahrirolvasyleh", fourth volume, Darol Elm, Gom, Iran, 1990
"If one commits the act of sodomy with a cow, a ewe, or a camel, their urine and their excrements become impure, and even their milk may no longer be consumed. The animal must then be killed and as quickly as possible and burned."
The little green book, Sayings of Ayatollah Khomeini,
Political, Phylosophica, Social and Religious with a special introduction by Clive Irving, ISBN number 0-553-14032-9, page 47
Did you know Roy - Quran (4:34) orders a man to beat his wife if she doesn't obey him?
Quran 4:34: Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in their sleeping places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great. Teachings of Islam
Roy did you know the rewards for those that go against Allah or Mohamed?
"The only reward of those who make war against Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be murdered or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land.
Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom" Quran 5:33 [AL-MAEDA (THE TABLE)]
Did you know that does who do not simply beleive in Islam the reward will be ?
Those who dont beleive in Islam will burn in hell forever.
Those who reject Islam will be forced to drink boiling fetid water, and they will still not die after going through this unthinkable torture.
Those who deny 'Allah' will be punished by pouring boiling water on their heads, and forcing them to wear clothes made from fire. This will cause their bodies to be scalded and burnt both from inside and outside.
Their skin and whatever there is in their abdomens, will be melted.
Furthermore, they will be punished with chains and whips made from Iron.
And If they try to run from all these torturous suffering, they shall be forced to turn back into it.
From the Koran that is supose to be a loving peacful religion with a mercifull God
Quran 14.16 : In front of such a one is Hell, and he is given, for drink, boiling fetid water.
Quran 14.17 : In gulps will he sip it, but never will he be near swallowing it down his throat: death will come to him from every quarter, yet will he not die: and in front of him will be a chastisement unrelenting.
Quran 22.19 : These twain (the believers and the disbelievers) are two opponents who contend concerning their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured down on their heads,
Quran 22.20 : With it shall be melted what is in their bellies and (their) skins as well.
Quran 22.21 : And for them are whips of iron.
Quran 76.4 : For the Rejecters we have prepared chains, yokes, and a blazing Fire.
Still in our present days and because of Islam
In Iran, and Afghanistan, brutal punishments are give for extra-marital sex.
Stoning to death was ordered by Mohammed, and is still used in Iran. This is a very cruel brutal punishment and its only aim is to inflict maximum pain on the individual.
Muslims in Afghanistan and Iran can be flogged for consuming alchohol, slandering or for adultery while they are not married.
Flogging is ordered by the Quran:
And those who accuse free women and bring not for witnesses, flog them with eighty stripes."59 For the adulterer, God says :"The adulteress and the adulterer, flog each of them with a hundred stripes." 60 s
These punishments are condemned by the International Community (Stonings: 1 2 3 4, Floggings: 1 2 3)
But the Quran says that:
Any religion except Islam will not be accepted
Quran 3.85 : If anyone desires a religion other than Islam, never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost.
This is also mentioned in Violation 5, where those who dont beleive in Allah, will be tortured severely.
Stoning to death is a cruel insane Islamic punishment given to people who are married but still voluntarily have sex outside marraige. This punishment was ordered by the "merciful" Prophet, who ofcourse was the messenger of the "merciful" Allah.
Many hadith, including Sahih Bukhari give proof that Stoning was ordered and practiced by Muhammed
So if you follow the Koran your reward in heaven are
• Rivers of Milk and Wine, and honey (47.15)
• Fruit and Meat (52.22)
• Young male servants (52.24)
• Dishes of Gold (43.71)
• Women with big beautiful eyes (44.54)
• Facing each other, Sitting on Thrones(37.44)
• No headaches or tiredness (37.47)
• Wear ornaments of pearl and gold, and clothes of silk (35.33) •
If you do not follow the Koran your reward in hell is
Blazing fire (48.13)
• Drinks of boiling water which cuts into the stomach (47.15)
• Boiling fluid, dark and intensely cold (38.57)
• A fruit which will boil the insides of the sinners, like boiling water (44.43-46)
• Boiling water will be poured on the sinner’s head. (44.48)
• Bound together in chains ( 14.49)
• Their skins will be replaced when they are roasted in fire. (4.56)
• They will eat fruits shaped like the devil, and then drink boiling water.(37.65-68)
• Whips of Iron (22.21)
Roy the Bible and the Catholic Church teached and still teaches such absurdities.
I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes his creations in such a way and with such human negative attributes.
In reality roy , Quran is a creation of Mohammed's mind and includes collections of stories, brainwashing techniques, general common sense and morals, and some "scientific" statements.
All these elements were either common sense, were borrowed from other religions and sources, or were invented by Mohammed.
Name:Pat •
Date: 03/15/07 13:56
A: Roy
There are many numerical contradictions in the Quran. Can God make so much error in doing simple calculations?
How many days did it take to create Heavens and Earth ?
Quran 7: 54 Your gurdian-Lord is Allah who created the heavens and earth in Six Days
Quran 10: 3 Verily your Lord is Allah, who created the heavens and earth in Six Days
Quran 11:7 He it is Who created the heavens and earth in Six Days
Quran-25:29: He Who created the heavens and earth and all that is between, in Six Days
The above verses clearly state that God created the heaven and Allah created the heaven and the Earth in 6 days. But the verses below stated-
Quran 41: 9 Is it that ye deny Him who created the earth in Two Days ?
Quran 41: 10 He set on the (earth) Mountains standing firm high above it, and bestowed blessing on the earth, and measured therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in FOUR DAYS…
Quran 41: 12 So He completed them (heavens) as seven firmaments in Two days and …
Now do the math: 2(for earth) + 4(for nourishment) + 2 (for heavens) = 8 days; and not 6 days
Similar mistakes you can see in the verse: Quran 4: 11 - 12, and Quran 4: 176 in inheritance law. In these verses one can see the total property after adding all distributed parties adds up more than the available property, i.e., totals become more than 1 which are: 1.125 and 1.25. How come ? A gross mathematical errors, is not it ?
Allah’s Days Equal to 1000 Years or 50,000 Years?
Quran 22: 47 A day in the sight of the Lord is like a thousand years of your reckoning. Quran-32:5: To Him, on a Day, the space whereof will be a thousands years of your rekoning
Quran 70: 4 The angels and the spirit ascend unto him in a day the measure whereof is Fifty thousands years.
So, which one is it? Is the day of Allah equal to 1,000 earth years or 50,000 earth years?
Creation of the Heaven and Earth
Which one was created first? As you will see in the verses below, Allah at one time says that Earth was created first and another time he says that the Heaven was created first.
Quran 2: 29 It is He who hath created for you all things that are on Earth; THEN He turned to the Heaven and made them into seven firmaments (Skies)….
Quran 79: 27 - 30 Are you the harder to create, or is the heaven that He built? He raised the height thereof and ordered it; and He has made dark the night thereof, and He brought forth the morning thereof. And after that, He spread (flattened) the earth
Now, does it match modern science? Do you believe that, Earth was created first, after that, God created Heaven? Modern science tells us that? Or How come SEVEN firmaments (layers)? Modern science tells us that, actually there is no such thing Sky is no “roof” over us. It is only a space with no known boundary at all. These verses simply reinforce the ancient idea of ROOF over us which is called SKY, is it not so? How funny!
Sun-set and Sun-rise
Koran teaches us that the Sun sets in a muddy spring:
Quran 18: 86 Till, when he (the traveller Zul-qarnain) reached the setting-place of the Sun, he found it going down into a muddy spring…
Quran 18: 90 Till, when he reached the rising-place of the Sun, he found it rising on a people for whom We had appointed no shelter from it.
Serious scientific errors here! Firstly, it is scientifically accepted fact that, the Sun never go down in a muddy spring. Secondly, this seems to presuppose a FLAT Earth, otherwise how can there be an extreme point in the West or in the East? A sunrise there would be basically just the same as at any other place on this earth, at land or sea. It would still look as if it is setting “far away”. It does say, that he reached THE PLACE where the Sun sets and in his second Journey the place where it rises.
A resting place for Sun!?
Quran 36: 38 And the sun runneth on unto a resting place for him. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Wise.
Quran 36: 39 And for the moon We have appointed mansions till she return like an old shrivelled palm leaf.
Quran 36: 40 It is not for Sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit.
Allah is indeed a big scientist. Where is sun and where is moon situated? Can anybody tell me how they could collide/meet/overtake each other? Are the sun and the moon neighbors to each other? I have the answer for this error: Ancient Allah saw (bare eye observations) sun and moon traveling from east to west seemingly in the same Sky area or same path, without colliding, causing day and night etc. Allah hardly could imagine that all these phenomena are simply due to Earth’s rotation and NOT by Sun’s rotation. Sun is stationary for Earth, because earth is stuck in the sun’s Gravity, like we are stuck in earth’s gravity. Allah never says any where in the whole Quran that, EARTH ROTATES. Perhaps Allah could not feel earth’s rotation.
A resting place for sun WAS CONFIRMED BY HADITHS?
Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 54, Number 421
Sahih Bukhari Hadiths: Abzur Ghifari (ra) narrated: one day Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) asked me, “Abzar do you know after setting where does Sun go?” I replied, I do not know, only Allah’s apostle can say better. Then Prophet (SA) replied, “After setting, the sun remains prostrated under Allah’s Aro’sh and waits for Allah’s command for rising again in the East. Day will come when sun will not get permission to rise again and Qeyamot will fall upon Earth”.
Can anybody tell me what is it? It was the superstitious belief of ancient people reflected in the Quran and Hadiths by Allah. A 10-year-old boy would not tell such fairy tale story today.
Why Allah Created Stars!
Quran gives us further scientific knowledge by telling us that the stars were created by Allah as missiles to throw at the devils:
Quran 67: 5 And We have (from of old) adorned the lowest heaven (sky) with lamps, and We have made such (Lamps as) missiles to drive away Satans…
Quran 37: 6-8 We have indeed decorated the lower heaven (sky) with beauty (in) the stars, (for beauty) and for guard against all obstinate rebellious Satans. So they should not strain their ears in the direction of the Exalted Assembly but be cast away from every side.
Thus, the stars are nothing but missiles to throw at devils so that they may not eavesdrop on the heavenly council. Once again we find how Allah was high on his superstitious weirdness.
Is Sky/Heaven A ROOF or Canopy Over the Earth?
Quran 21: 32 And We have made the sky a roof withheld (from them). Yet they turn away from its portents.
Quran 31: 10 He hath created the heavens (Skies) without supports (pillars) that ye can see, and hath cast into the earth firm Mountains/Hills, so that it quake not with you; and He hath dispersed…
Quran 2: 22: Who has made the earth your couch, And the heavens (Sky) your canopy
Modern science tells us- whole thing around the earth is space and there is no boundary even if we go Billions of light years away in all directions. Questions are: When there is no sky above us then how in the world, it needs pillars for support? Do we really have a roof above us? Is there a canopy above the Earth? Is there anything called above or beneath us? Are mountains there to prevent Earth from shaking? Give me a break!
Once again Allah considered sky as roof over the Earth, which will broke/shattered during dooms day
Quran 78: 19 And the heavens (sky) Shall be broken (opened) as if there were doors opens…
Quran 82: 1 When the Sky is cleft asunder
Quran 69: 16 And the sky will be Rent asunder, for it will That day be flimsy (soft)
Quran 81: 2 When the stars fall, losing their luster.
Yousuf Ali comments in his Tafsir: beautiful blue-sky overhead (which we take for granted in sunshine) will be shattered to pieces. Modern science tells us that there is no such thing as roof/sky or any canopy over the Earth; rather all around Earth is a limitless space. Only Allah knows what will break/shatter or will get soft/flimsy or how doors will open , there is no walls, where from doors will come? In some Ayats Allah threatened kafirs by saying: “I (Allah) will throw broken pieces of sky over your head.”
Does Sun Rotate Around the Earth?
Quran 31: 29 Seest thou not that Allah merges Night into Day and He merges Day into Night; That He has subjected the sun and moon (to His law), each running its course for a term (time) appointed.
Quran 21: 33 It is He who created The Night and Day, And the Sun and Moon; each of them Swim (float) along in its own course.
Ayats mentioned above could be found over and over again and again almost in every pages of Quran. Because, Allah standing in the open Arab desert saw very well that, every morning SUN is rising from the East and gradually (appointed time or fixed time) setting to the West, and as a result, day and night follows. Allah truly mentioned this wrong knowledge (sun moving) of pre-historic people. Every time Allah mentioned Sun & Moon, He mentioned day & night, as if it is due to sun’s movement day and night follows. But surprisingly, all the hypocrite Mullahs giving false credit to Allah by saying: look Quran told about sun’s movement 1400 years ago which modern science only found out now. In real world, sun takes 225 millions of years to make just one complete circle through the solar Universe. And obviously this movement of sun has nothing to do with DAY & NIGHT of the earth. Actually, Sun is stationary in relation to the Earth, because the Earth is stuck to the giant gravitation force of the Sun, and the Earth also moves along with the Sun wherever it goes, just the way we are stuck to the Earth’s gravitation force and do not feel its movement at all.
Why then, Allah was telling the Sun’s movement again and again. I have already mentioned above, why Allah was hysteric about the Sun’s movements. Now dishonest Mullahs are claiming science here. I wonder, why Allah has to mentioned about the Sun’s 225 millions year journey (which is even unimaginable to mankind) to tell about day and night? What relation Sun’s movement has with the day and night?
Does Earth Spread Out Like Carpet (flat)?
Quran 15: 19 And the earth We have spread out (like a carpet); set thereon Mountains firm and immovable;
Quran 78: 6-7 Have We not made the earth as a wide expanse, And the mountains as pegs (anchor)?
Allah was sure that earth is flat like a carpet and mountains are there to anchor the earth so that earth does not shake with us. Allah is really merciful scientist.
Is Man Created From Clotted Blood?
Quran-23:14: Then fashioned We the drop (semen) a CLOT OF CONGEALED BLOOD then fashioned We the Clot a little lump (foetus), fashioned We the little lump into bones, then clothed the bones with flesh, and then produced it another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of Creators. ( Bengali translated Quran said: “Zamaa’t Raokto theeke Manoosh banieesi” And this Ayat has been repeated again and again throughout the Quran ) Quran-75:38: Then he becomes a CLOT; then (Allah) shaped and fashioned…
Quran 96: 2 Created man, out of a mere clot of congealed blood
There are serious scientific problems here:
Blood clot cannot grow into anything. This idea also came from the Greek. Aristotle erroneously believed that, humans are originated from the action of male semen upon female menstrual blood, which is absolutely an incorrect assumption. Quran’s assertion on Clot (alaqa) is completely wrong about human development, since there is absolutely no stage during which the embryo consists of a clot. The only situation in which an embryo might appear like a clot is during a miscarriage, in which case the clotted blood that is seen to emerge (much of which comes from mother) is solidified and by definition no longer alive. Therefore, if ever an embryo appeared to look like a clot it would never develop any further into a human; it would be a dead mass of bloody miscarrying flesh. Since Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) had some thirteen wives it is entirely possible that he would be very familiar with miscarriages.
Modern science tells us that, the formation of human embryo is a seamless continuation from conception to birth; hence there are no hard- and- fast boundaries of stages as Quran describes. Quran describes 4 stages, which matches exactly with Galenic description of development of human embryo (which was proved wrong by modern science).
Creation of bones and clothing of bones with flesh: According to modern embryologists including Prof. Moore, the tissue from which bone originates, known as mesoderm, is the same tissue as that from which muscle (flesh) develops. Thus bone and muscles begin to develop simultaneously, rather than sequentially (as the Quran is telling us). Moreover, most of the muscle tissue that we humans have is laid down before birth, but bones continue to develop and calcify (strengthen with calcium) right into one’s teenage years. So it would be more accurate if the Quran had said that muscles started to develop at the same time as bones, but completed their development earlier. The idea that bones are clothed with flesh is not only scientifically completely wrong/false, but was directly copied from the ancient Greek doctor Galen’s hypothesis.
Also, the idea of saying: “made into bones and clothed the bones with muscle” came from the technique of making animal statue out of rod and cement or mud. People usually make the skeleton (out of rod or stick) first and, then cover it up with cement or mud. This is scarcely a scientific description of embryonic development. It is rather a description of an unlettered man.
Is Religion Compulsive Or Is It Not?
Quran 02: 256 There is no Compulsion in religion….
OR
Quran 9: 29 Fight those who do not profess the true faith(Islam) till they pay the polltax (jiziya) with the hand of humility.
Quran 9: 5 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolators wherever ye find them and take them captive, and besiege them and prepare for them each ambush….
Quran 47: 4 When you meet the unbelievers in the Jihad strike off their heads….
Quran 2: 191 And slay (kill) them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out such is the reward of those who suppress faith.
Quran 8: 65 O Apostle ! rouse the believers to the fight of….unbelievers.
Very often apologetics claim that, Islam is a religion of peace and there is no compulsion. Yet punishment of an apostate in Islam is, of course, death penalty.
In very many Ayats Allah claimed that, He has given this Quran in the easy and clear language so that, it will not be difficult to understand by the ordinary Arabs.
Quran 44: 58 Verily, We have made This Quran easy in the tongue, in order that they may give heed.
No matter which translated Quran we read, the Quranic materials remain the same to us and every sentence is self explanatory and it does not take a rocket scientist to comprehend what is the message Allah wanted to transmit for Arabs. Yet, bigot Mullahs will always blame translators for Quranic contradictions/errors/inconsistencies etc. and will try to find lame excuses to cover up Allah’s ignorance.
Comments:
The Holy Qur’an is full of inaccuracies, contradictions, inconsistencies, redundancies, no chronology or chapters, grammatical errors, etc. One can find hundreds of contradictions/errors/inconsistencies in the Holy Quran. The above-mentioned Ayats are just selected samples from the Quran. But still it is a miracle to those who are blindfolded bigots.
Name:joe joe •
Date: 03/15/07 16:10
A: Roy,
The bible was definatly manipulated!
Name:newguy2this •
Date: 03/15/07 20:01
A: Well for one there are too many Bibles revised to suite the needs of what people want to believe. and religions with very similiar beliefs. These beliefs are stolen from Jewish, the world took there beliefs and made it open to anyone. Did they not find a book of Philip ? who happens to be a relative or family member to jesus the earliest findings of anything about jesus and his follower or wife what every she was. They too me in my opnion Scientifictly prove that they have found the tomb of jesus and his family. mY QUESTION is for that. What are the odds of them all having the exact names they have and all being in one tomb ??? to me they seem to be very slim chance of another family having the exact same names. And why do Christians Not accept this becuase just like anyone else when we are right we are right we get bold headed. And my meaning of too many bibles i mean too many you can't even tell who is truth anymore I heard that Christians Believe that the Norht American indians and African American ways were witch craft if so how does the bible know this when in fact these people where not even around?? and how can only one belief be the only way i always hear that did jesus really say that ??? our has it been revised too say that trying to make this belief more stronger.?? If so when did jesus say that or where was it written that god made the world in seven days ??? and who wrote that down ?? but yet it is in the bible... Where does it say that god and again who wrote it down that god made adam and eve ??? and if so that is so hard to believe and is far fetched. cause according to the Christianity thats is how life started as they know it ??? althought science sounds way better and more believable. here is what i understand about adam and eve... they have 3 sons people please correct me if im wrong. ok so now what happpened??? To me that belief only has 2 options Insest which would be a sin and just wrong or you can believe they had sex with animals hence ape to man theory. and NO there where no other people around. so the choices people who revised the Bible soo many times seem to have also made it hard to believe at times. And what about the Greek gods are they lower then God himself. And Jesus did not claim to be the messiah either the jews assumed he was the messiah and Christ. Jesus said his fathers Kingdom not his which does not make hime a king or a messiah and at the end of the documentry that is more believable that god had a son and was actually talking to his wife or known as marie megdalen when he says WOMAN BEHOLD YOUR SON
cause they would have killed his son. well i have alot more but that could be later.
Name:TheNakedBoneHunter •
Date: 03/15/07 20:46
A: VERY IMPORTANT - SEE BELOW - email of JOE ZIAS, March 1, 2007 - CAN SOMEONE VERIFY THIS AS BEING THE GENUINE EMAIL FROM JOE ZIAS, if it is, then this is critical news ( Note: I am not the author of the following excerpt , The Naked Bone Hunter )
Time magazine again reports: "Asbury Theological Seminary professor Ben Witherington, a early Christianity expert who was deeply involved with the James Ossuary, says there are physical reasons to believe it couldn't have originated in the Talpiot plot." Following the lead of Time, I did my own detective work and checked out Ben Witherington's blogspot (see, www.benwitherington.blogspot.com).
Witherington claims: "Joe Zias is a fine archaeologist of long standing and good reputation. He is the person who catalogued the ten ossuaries from the Talpiot tomb, and personally catalogued the tenth ossuary. He worked with Amos Kloner as part of the team who made the original discovery. In two emails this morning to someone I have been talking to he made crystal clear that the tenth ossuary was blank, certainly was not the James ossuary at all despite the assertions of those involved in making the (Vision TV) special. These emails have been sent along to me, and I will let them speak for themselves.
Joe Zias [email protected]: Subject: Re: Jesus Tomb Sent: Thursday, March 1, 2007 6:02 AM
"Amos Kloner is right as I received and catalogued the objects, the 10th was plain and I put it out in the courtyard with all the rest of the plain ossuaries as was the standard procedure when one has little storage space available. Nothing was stolen nor missing and they were fully aware of this fact. It just didn't fit in with their agenda." Shalom, Joe.
The filmmakers were fully aware that the tenth ossuary in the so-called "Jesus family tomb" was blank, but it didn't fit in with their agenda. So they deliberately misled viewers with a spurious assertion that this was the James ossuary
END OF EXCERPT
CAN SOMEONE CONFIRM THIS WITH JOE ZIAS ?
Name:Pat •
Date: 03/15/07 22:21
A: Roy:
Have you check out your Koran and analyzed the verses that I brought up?
Like the bible there are full of contradictions and errors because they are man made and not by the real Creator God.
Name:jcal •
Date: 03/15/07 22:52
A: I Too am a devought catholic who beleaves strongly in the message of the bible. But to think that every word of any story that is not told by the subject of the story, to me, is naive. It would not change my moral beliefs if jesus died like the rest of us. Maybe when the bible says that Jesus rose to heaven mind body and soul, it just means that his spirit rose in the shape of his human body, with the memories of his human mind.
Name:jsm •
Date: 03/16/07 3:35
A: Pat,
"Like the bible there are full of contradictions and errors because they are man made and not by the real Creator God."
Are you saying the bible is full of contradictions or what?
Name:sage •
Date: 03/16/07 5:11
A: When I opened this forum I expected flames but not like this! There are so many views I appreciate in here from both sides of the table, and I think were those views left to a few lines each in the beginning, it wouldn't have taken me half an hour to read this! (and I'm a speed reader! ;)
First please let me say (raises her shield) for a bunch of educated people, there sure are alot of spelling mistakes here! lol... I just had to say it..
Second please let me remind everyone that the WINNERS wrote the history books, not the losers. So all history is somewhat biased. ALL OF IT.
Thirdly I don't think that typing your whole statement in caps makes it anymore meaningful.. sheesh, I bet you people also yell during debates.
Last, and most importantly, this post began about the probability of a person dying, then rising into the heaven three days later. I think not.. and here's an idea for all the bible thumpers that blindly accept the STORIES of people, whose stories were then EDITED, then RE-EDITED by the church, and further edited by those who formed a religion. Faith is an ancient idea, one that came thousands of years before King David or any of his lineage. Faith requires only the belief in something greater than you. I embrace the belief that the power of my life beats in my heart and is held in my own hand. I don't beg the forgivess of anyone, and I don't ask for positive change because I know that only I can bring it.
I'm a knowledge junkie and I'm all about balance. I take what I need and give what I can. Narrowmindedness and judging other because of thier beliefs are the greater sins I can imagine, and I'm certain that Jesus would not stand beside anyone who ridiculed and belittled.
Name:Pat •
Date: 03/16/07 13:21
A: jsm wrote:
"Like the bible there are full of contradictions and errors because they are man made and not by the real Creator God."
Are you saying the bible is full of contradictions or what?
Pat wrote:
Yes the bible is full of contradictions just like the Koran. Here is a list.
of contradictions and curious things in the Old and New Testaments.
1
At least two Creation stories appear in the Bible, and they disagree. The first is in Genesis 1:1 to 2:3, the second in the remainder of Chapter 2.
In the first version, God (Elohim in the manuscripts) created men & women on the same day (1:27). subsequent to the creation of all animals (1:25). In the second version, God (Jehovah) created Adam first (2:7). then animals & birds (2:19). then Eve (2:22). In the first version. trees appeared before man (1:11): in the second. the world was barren of vegetation at the time of man's creation (2:5). and plantlife was created later (2:8-9).
Compare these with Genesis 5:1-2, a third creation story, which strongly suggests the simultaneous creation of man & woman. It states that at the time of the creation of men and women. God blessed them and called them "man" (in the Hebrew text, adam).
Most translators and Bible scholars candidly admit the differences in the Creation stories. and call the first two the Priestly and the Yahwehist versions. (In particular, see the New American Bible and its fine commentary.) The versions differ strongly in texture and language as #ell as content. ln some translations, however, verb tenses are subtly altered to conceal the problems.
(This item is clearest in the New International Bible and the Revised KJ Bible.)
2
Genesis 6:4 The Nephilim (Giants) lived on earth prior to the Flood.
Genesis 7:23 Only Noah and his family, and the animals on the Ark, survived the Flood.
Numbers 13:33 Long after the Flood, the Nephilim (Giants) still lived.
3
Genesis 9:3-4 God makes a covenant with Noah: Mankind will be permitted to eat the flesh of any living creature, as long as the blood is drained.
Deuteronomy 14:7-20 God goes back on his word.
4
Genesis 11:1,6-9 In the days of Babel, generations after the Flood, the world had one common language. God "confused the tongues" to create many.
Genesis 10:5 Prior to this. the Bible speaks of many "nations", each with its own language.
Some apologists suggest the Babel story was a "flashback"; the events in Genesis 11:1-9 actually occured prior to those in Genesis 10:5. It's possible, but nothing in the source manuscripts support it. The narrative link at the beginning of Chapter 11 is the same which elsewhere is translated as "and", and invaribly implies a normal sucession of events.
5
Exodus 4:11 God admitted He is the cause of blindness. deafness. dumbness.
Isaiah 53:2 It is sometimes God's will to crush people or to cause them to suffer.
Lamentations 3:33 Yet, God does not willingly cause grief or affliction.
(In the KJ version:)
6
Genesis 15:13.16 God fortold the enslavement of the descendants of Abram (Abraham). but said they would return in the "fourth generation".
The return actually occured in the fifth generation--or the sixth. if you wish to count Abraham. The generations were: 1. Abraham: 2. Isaac (Gen 21:3): 3. Levi (Ex 1:3); 4. Kohath (Ex 6:16); 5. Aram (Ex 6:18): 6. Moses (Ex 6:20).
Genesis 11:26.32 Terah lived 135 years after begetting Abraham. Acts 7:4
Abraham departed Haran when his father (Terah) was dead. Genesis 12:4
Abraham was 75 years old when he departed Haran. Thus, after living 135 years. Abraham was only 75 years old!
(In the KJ version:)
7
Genesis 23:1 God tempted Abraham.
James 1:13 God tempts no one.
8
Who brought Joseph to Egypt and sold him to Potiphar, the courtier of Pharaoh?
Genesis 37:38,36 The Midianites.
Geneis 39:1 The Ishmaelites.
9
Exodus 3:10. 4:19-23 God sent Moses to Egypt to speak to Pharaoh.
Exodus 4:24-26 God immediately and arbitrarily attempted to kill Moses before Moses could carry out the mission. No explanation provided.
10
Exodus 9:3-6 God killed all the cattle (field animals) of the Egyptians with a grevious murrain. including the horses. asses, camels, oxen and sheep. None survived the plague.
Exodus 9:19-21,25 Later. at least some of the Egyptian field animals were mysteriously alive again, to suffer a plague of hail.
11
Exodus 6:2-3 God informed Moses that previousiy His name (Jehovah) had been unknown even to the patriarchs. such as Abraham. Isaac and Jacob.
Genesis 4:26 long before this. men began to call on the name of the Lord, "Jehovah".
Genesis 22:14 Abraham named a place Jehovah-jireh. "The Lord will provide."
Note: In each passage in the Pentateuch manuscripts. the name given is Yod-He-Vau-He, YHVH. generally interpreted as "Yahweh", "Yehovah" or "Jehovah".
12
Exodus 20:4 Image-making forbidden.
Exodus 25:18 Commanded.
13
Exodus 20:13 Murder forbidden.
Exodus 23:27 Commanded.
14
Exodus 20:15 Stealing forbidden.
Exodus 3:21-22 Commanded.
15
Exodus 20:16 Lying forbidden.
I Kings 22:20 Commanded.
16
Leviticus 11:6 The Bible maintains that hares chew cud, like cows. They do not.
17
leviticus 11:21-23 Also, that locusts. beetles and grasshoppers have four legs.
18
Leviticus 3:17, 11:1-47 God gave many rules about what may be eaten or handled.
Colossians 2:21-22 Such rules come from man, not God.
19
Leviticus 19:15 You must judge your neighbor.
Matthew 7:1 Judge not.
(In the KJ version:)
20
Numbers 23:19; I Samuel 15:29 God does not repent.
Genesis 6:6; Exodus 32:14: I Samuel 15:11.35: Psalms 42:10: Jonah 3:10 God does repent.
21
Numbers 23:19: Titus 1:2 God cannot lie.
I Kings 22:20-30: II Chronicles 18:19-22 God deliberately sent a "lying spirit" into the mouth of Ahab's prophets.
II Thessalonians 2:11-12 God sends delusions on people to make them believe false things and be damned.
Ezekiel 13:9. 14:9 The Lord deceives prophets (puts false words into their mouths) in order to get rid of them.
22
Numbers 31:7.9,15-18 The Israelites slew all the Midianites. except some of the female children.
Judges 6:1.5 Later. the Midianites invaded the Israelites.
23
Numbers 33:37-42 Aaron died on Mount Hor, on the border of Edom. Immediately thereafter. the Israelites went to Zalmonah and Punon.
Deuteronomy 10:6-7 Aaron died in Moserah. Right after that, the Israelites traveled to Gudgodah and Jotbathah. (See also Deut 32:50.)
24
Deuteronomy 6:5: Matthew 22:37 We must love God.
Deuteronomy 6:13: I Peter 2:17 We must fear God.
I John 4:18 Perfect love cannot be mingled with fear.
25
Who inscribed the Ten Commandments on the second set of stone tablets?
Deuteronomy 10:1-2.4 God inscribed them.
Exodus 34:27-28 God dictated whiie Moses inscribed them.
26
Joshua 8:28 Joshua burnt the city of Ai, making it an ash heap forever.
Nehemiah 7:32 Ai still exists as a city.
27
Joshua 10:38-39 Joshua utterly destroyed the inhabitants of Debir; he did not leave a living soul.
Joshua 15:15,17; Judges 1:1,11,13 Othniel the son of Kenaz conquored Debar. It's evident that this was after Joshua's death.
28
Judges 4:21 Jael killed Sisera by driving a tent stake through his head while he slept, fastening his head to the ground.
Judges 5:26-27 When Jael killed Sisera. he sank to the ground at her feet. and died.
29
I Samuel 15:7-8,20 Saul completely destroyed the Amalekites.
I Samuel 27:8-9 Then David completely destroyed the Amalekites.
I Samuel 30:1-2,17 Later, David destroyed a raiding party of Amalekites. Only 400 men escaped.
I Chronicles 4:42-43 Finally the Simeonites killed all the Amalekites.
30
I Samuel 16:10.11 Jesse had seven sons besides his youngest, David.
I Chronicles 2:13-15 David was the seventh son.
31
How did King Saul become acquainted with David? Two contradictory accounts:
I Samuel 16:18-23 Saul met David when David entered Saul's servce as a royal harper. David was a warrior. A servant informed Saul of the identity of David's father. Thereafter David remained in Saul's service as both harper and armor bearer.
I Samuel 17:14-15,26,31-32,55-56, 18:1-2 David was a shepherd, and unlike his brothers did not follow Saul to war. Saul sent for him. having heard that David was asking about the reward for killing Goliath. Saul did not know the identity of David's father, and had to ask. Thereafter David remained in Saul's service and did not return home.
32
I Samuel 28:6 Saul attempted to consult the Lord.
I Chronicles 10:13-14 Saul did no such thing.
33
How did King Saul die?
I Samuel 31:4-6: I Chronicles 10:4-5 He committed suicide. II Samuel 1:8-10 An Amalekite slew him.
II Samuel 21:12 The Philistines slew him.
34
How many horsemen did David take from Hadadezer?
II Samuel 8:4 Seven hundred.
I Chronicles 18:4 Seven thousand.
35
II Samuel 10:18 David slew 700 Aramean charioteers and 40,000 horsemen.
I Chronicles 19:18 He slew 7000 Aramean charioteers and 40,000 footmen.
36
II Samuel 24:9 & I Chronicles 21:5 Contrary census totals for Israel.
37
I Kings 6:2: II Chronicles 3:3 The size of Solomon's temple was about ninety feet by thirty feet by fourty-five feet high.
I Chronicles 23:4 And yet, managing it required 23.000 servants.
38
How many chiefs or officers did Solomon have to oversee the people?
I Kings 9:23 Five hundred fifty.
II Chronicles 8:10 Two hundred fifty.
39
I Kings 16:6,8 Baasha, King of Israel. died in the 26th year of Asa's reign over Judah.
II Chronicles 16:1 In the 36th year of Asa's reign, Baasha built a city.
40
I Chronicles 21:1 Satan "rose up" against Israel and incited King David to take a census.
II Samuel 24:1 It was God who directly incited the census (apparently seeking an excuse to vent anger on Israel).
In both versions, God responded by killing thousands of Israelites (I Chron 21:7 onward & II Samuel 24:15 onward). In both versions, David criticised God for slaughtering so many innocents (I Chron 21:17, II Samuel 24:17).
41
II Samuel 24:24 King David paid 50 shekels of silver for the threshing floor, oxen, wheat, etc.. which he appropriated for ceremonial purposes.
I Chronicles 21:1 He paid 600 shekels of gold.
(Most explicit in the New American Bible and the International Bible:)
42
I Samuel 17:23.50-51 David slew the Philistine, Goliath of Gath.
II Samuel 21:19 Elhanan son of Jair slew Goliath of Gath. Note: In the standard KJ translation, the story is altered in the second instance, so that Elhanan slays the cousin of Goliath; the prevarication is disclosed by the italics in most editions. The contradiction stands in the source texts. See any good Bible commentary.
(Clearest in the Revised KJ version:)
43
II Samuel 6:23 Michal. the daughter of Saul, was childless.
II Samuel 21:8 She bore five sons.
Note: The Authorized (standard) KJ version says Michal "brought up" the five sons. but the more honest Revised KJ version makes it clear that these were her sons by birth. Some other translations substitute "Merab" or "Merob" for Michal in the same passage, but translators and commentators admit that in the majority of Septuagint sources, the name is Michal.
44
(In the New International Bible:)
II Kings 1:17 Joram became King of Israel in the second year that Jehoram son of Jehosaphat reigned over Judah.
11 Kings 8:16 Jehoram son of Jehosaphat became King of Judah in the fifth year of Joram's reign over Israel. Note: Joram (son of Ahab). the King of Israel. was also sometimes called Jehoram. Do not confuse him with the other Jehoram (son of Jehosaphat). the King of Judah. Again. see any good commentary.
45
II Kings 9:6-9, 10:11,30 The Lord commanded Jehu to destroy the house of Ahab. Jehu obeyed. destroying everyone in the city of #ezreei who was of the house of Ahab, including friends and priests. God commended him for these actions.
Hosea 1:4 God promises to punish the House of Jehu for the massacre.
46
(In the KJ and Revised KJ versions only:)
How old was King Ahaziah when he began to reign?
II Kings 8:26 22 years old.
II Chronicles 22:2 42 years old.
47
II Kings 16:5 King Ahaz of Judah (Jerusalem) was not conquered by the kings of Israel and Syria. (See also Isaiah 7:1-7. in which God prophesied that Israel and Syria will fail to conquor Jerusalem.)
II Chronicles 28:5-6 The kings of Israel and Syria did conquer him.
48
II Kings 23:29-30 King Josiah was slain at Magiddo. Servants brought his dead body to Jerusalem.
II Chronicles 35:22-24 He was wounded at Magiddo. Servants brought him alive to Jerusalem, where he died.
49
II Kings 25:19-20 Nebuzaradan, commander of the invading Babylonian army, took five royal advisors as prisoners.
Jeremiah 52:25-26 He took seven advisors as prisoners.
50
Compare Ezra 2:1-67 with Nehemiah 7:6-68 to find a number of contradictions. Each passage purports to be a comprehensive list, by family unit, of the inhabitants of Jerusalem who returned from Babylonian captivity. Compare numbers for each family: fourteen of them disagree. Moreover the addition is wrong. Both Ezra and Nehemiah put the total at 42,360 plus 2,337 servants. but simple addition shows it to be 29,818 in Ezra, and 31.089 in Nehemiah.
51
Psalms 104:5 (KJ version); Ecclesiastes 1:4 The Earth will last forever.
II Peter 3:10; Hebrews 1:10-11 The Earth will perish.
52
Proverbs 26:4 & 26:5 Contradictory advice, in adjacent verses!
53
Leviticus, chapters 1-7 After delivering the Jews from Egypt, God went into minute detail regarding sacrifices and burnt offerings.
Jeremiah 7:22 God denied that he ever said anything about sacrifices or burnt offerings.
54
Job 7:9: Ecclesiastes 9:5 The dead will never rise again. They will have no further reward.
John 5:28-29: I Corinthians 15:16,52 The dead will rise again to be rewarded or punished.
55
Deuteronomy 24:16: II Kings 14:16; II Chronicles 25:4 The son should not be punished for the father's sin. Every man bears guilt only for his own transgressions.
Ezekiel 18:20 Again. the son does not bear guilt for the sins of the father.
Exodus 20:5 Ang yet. God blames children for the iniquities of the father. even for four generations.
Deuteronomy 5:9 His curse or punishment may extend far beyond the third or fourth generation.
Romans 5:12,14.19, 6:23 Also, all men are considered sinners because of Adam's sin. Death, the punishment for sin, is inflicted even on those who did not sin, because Adam sinned.
56
Who was the father of Joseph--Jacob (Matthew 1:16) or Heli (Luke 3:23)? The Bible provides two geneoiogies for #oseph. Jesus's earthly Father, one in Chapter 1 of Matthew and the other in Chapter 3 of Luke. Both are by line of male descent. They contradict. See Luke 3:23-31 and Matthew 1:6-15 for the conflicting Portions. The two versions occasionally come together so other questions occur. For example, who was father to Sheatiel and grandfather to Zerubbabel? Was it Neri (Luke 3:27) or Jeconiah (Matt 1:12)?
57
More problems arise when we compare the New Testament geneologies with the version in the first chapters of I Chronicles. For example, in Matthew, the son of Zerubbabel (Zorobabbel) is Abiud (Matthew 1:13). In Luke, his son is Rhesa (Luke 3:27). But I Chronicles lists seven sons for Zerubbabel (I Chron 3:19-20), and neither Abiud nor Rhesa are among them.
58
Another problem with the geneology:
Matthew 1:8-9 Joram was the father of Uzziah (Ozias). who was the father of Jotham (Joatham).
I Chronicles 3:11-12 Joram was the father of Ahaziah, father of Joash, father of Amaziah. father of Azariah--who. finally. was the father of Jotham.
59
Yet another problem:
Matthew 1:11 Josiah was the father of Jechoniah. I Chronicles 3:15-16 Josiah was the grandfather of Jechoniah.
60
And another:
Matthew 1:12: Luke 3:27 Zerubbabel was the son of Shealtiel (Salathiel).
I Chronicles 3:17-19 Zerubbabel was the son of Pedaiah: Shealtiel was his uncle.
61
And another:
Matthew 1:17 Matthew says there were fourteen generations from the Babylonian captivity to the birth of the Messiah.
Matthew 1:12-16 Count carefully. There were only thirteen.
62
And another:
Luke 3:35-36 Shelah was the son of Cainan, and great-grandson of Shem.
Genesis 11:11-12 Shelah was the son of Arpachsnad. and grandson of Shem.
63
John 1:18, 6:46: I John 4:12 No one has ever seen God.
Exodus 33:11 God says no man will ever see His face and live. But ... the Lord appeared to Abraham
(Gen 18:1#. Jacob saw God face-to-face (Gen 32:30). Moses and the Elders gazed upon God (Exodus 24:9-11). God spoke to Moses face-to-face (Exodus 33:11: Deut 34:10). God allowed Moses to see his "back parts" (Exodus 33:22-23). Isaiah saw God in a vision (Isaiah 6:1,5). Ezekiel also saw God in a vision and described Him in some detail (Ezekiel 1:27-28). Amos saw God (Amos 7:7).
64
Matthew 1:20: Luke 1:26-35 Before Jesus's birth, angels appeared and clearly informed both Joseph and Mary that their child was the Son of God.
Luke 2:49-50 In spite of this, Joseph and Mary did not understand Jesus when he refered to God as his "father".
65
Matthew 2:1,14-15,22-23 Joseph and his family fled Judea (Bethlehem) in order to avoid Herod. stayed in Egypt a while, feared to return to Judea after Herod's death, and so settled in Galilee (Nazareth).
Luke 1:26-27, 2:1,4-5,39-40 Joseph was an original resident of Galilee (Nazareth) at the time of his marriage. only briefly visited Judea (Bethlehem) to register for the census, and returned peacefully to Galilee after fulfilling ritual prescriptions concerning childbirth.
66
Mark 1:7-13 Immediately after Jesus's baptism and encounter with Paul, Jesus went into the wilderness for fourty days, and dwelled alone.
John 1:27-40 After the encounter, Jesus continued to live near Galilee, and went about gathering disciples.
67
Mark 1:14,16-18 Jesus gathered Simon. Andrew and other disciples after John the Baptist was imprisoned.
John 1:40-42. 3:22-24 Jesus already had his disciples-- including Simon and Andrew--before John was imprisioned.
68
Mark 1:29-30,40-42 Jesus healed the leper after visiting Simon Peter's house.
Matthew 8:1-3.14 Jesus heaied the leper before visiting the house.
69
(Most explicit in the New American Bible and the New International bible:)
Matthew 4:5-8 The Devil took Jesus first to the parapet of the temple, then to a high place to view all the kingdoms of the world.
Luke 4:5-9 The Devil took Jesus first to a high place to view the kingdoms, then to the parapet of the temple.
70
Matthew 11:2-3: Luke 7:18-22 While imprisioned. John the Baptist sent followers to Jesus to inquire if Jesus was the Messiah.
John 1:29-34,36 John already knew Jesus was the Messiah.
71
John 3:13 Jesus said that no man but himself has ever ascended to heaven.
II Kings 2:11 Elijah ascended to heaven in a whirlwind.
Genesis 5:24: Hebrews 11:5 Enoch was taken bodily into Heaven.
72
Mark 2:26 David ate consecrated bread from the House of God. and gave some to his companions, in the days of Abiathar the high priest.
I Samuel 21:1-6 This event actually occured in the days of Ahimelech the high priest.
I Chronicles 24:6: I Samuel 23:6 Abiathar was the son of Ahimelech (they were high priest at different times).
73
Matthew 11:28-30 Jesus will give rest and peace to his followers: his yoke is easy, his burden light.
Hebrews 12:6 God will discipline and punish, or scourge, everyone who comes to him.
II Timothy 3:12 The followers of Christ will suffer great persecution.
74
John 2:14-16 The purging of the temple occured near the beginning of Jesus's ministry. two or three years before the crucifixion.
Matthew 21:12-13; Mark 11:15-17; Luke 19:45-46 The purging occured
Note: Some apologists have suggested that Jesus purged the temple twice. If so, and if we assume the gospels are independent accounts as apologists insist. it is remarkab|y unlikely that one of them shouid mention oniy the first purging. and three should mention only the second.
75
John 3:36 Only those who beiieve in the Son of God will be saved.
Luke 10:25-28 No! To be saved. it suffices to love God and your fellow man.
Matthew 19:16-21 Jesus told one man that to gain "eternal life", it was necessary only to obey the Ten Commandments. Only if the man wanted to be "perfect" did he need to sell his possessions and follow Jesus.
Acts 10:34-5 God will accept anyone who fears Him and "works righteousness".
76
John 6:17,19.21 Jesus walked all the way across the lake: he did not climb into the boat.
Matthew 14:25,32: Mark 6:48,51 Jesus walked only part way. and finished the journey in the boat.
77
Matthew 5:1, 6:9-13, 7:28 Jesus delivered the Lord's Prayer during the Sermon on the Mount before the multitudes.
Luke 11:1-4 He delivered it before the disciples alone, and not as part of the Sermon on the Mount.
78
Matthew 5:3-11 The sermon contained nine Beatitudes.
Luke 6:20-22 The sermon contained only four Beatitudes.
79
Matthew 6:5-6 Jesus condemned public prayer.
I Timothy 2:8 Paul encouraged public prayer.
80
Matthew 6:25-28, 30-34 We should take no thought for ourselves, or for tomorrow: we should not toil: tomorrow will take care of itself.
II Thessalonians 3:10 If a man does not provide for himself or his own, he has denied his faith. and he is worse than an infidel.
I Corinthians 3:8 If anyone does not work, he should not be allowed to eat.
81
Matthew 8:26, 9:9 Jesus acquired Matthew as a disciple after stilling the tempest.
Mark 2:14. 4:39 Jesus acquired Matthew (Levi) before stilling the tempest. Note: The context identifies Levi as another name for Matthew. Compare Matt 9:9-17 with Mark 2:14-22 & Luke 5:27-39. or see any good commentary.
82
Matthew 8:5-7 The Centurion approached Jesus, beseeching help for a sick servant.
Luke 7:3.6-7 The Centurion did not approach Jesus. He sent friends and elders of the Jews.
83
Compare the names of the Twelve Apostles, meticulously listed in four places in the Bible.
Matthew 10:2-4: Mark 3:16-19 Lebbaeus Thaddaeus was one of the Twelve.
Luke 6:14-16: Acts 1:13 Judas the brother of James (not Iscariot) has replaced him.
84
Acts 13:39 All sins can be forgiven.
Mark 3:29 Cursing or blaspheming the Holy Spirit is unforgivable.
85
Luke 8:41-42 Jairus approached Jesus for help, because his daughter was dying.
Matthew 9:18 He asked for help, saying his daughter was already dead.
86
Mark 6:8 Jesus instructed his disciples to wear sandals and take a staff on their journey.
Matthew 10:9 Jesus instructed them not to take a staff, not to wear sandals.
87
Matthew 11:12,14. 17:12-13 Jesus said that John the Baptist was Elijah.
John 1:21 John the Baptist maintained that he was not Elijah. See also Malachi 4:5. which predicts that Elijah must return before the final days of the world. And see Mark 9:13, where Jesus insists that Elijah has, indeed. returned.
88
John 5:22 God the Father entrusted all judgment to Jesus. John 5:27,30, 8:26: Matthew 25:31-32: II Corinthians 5:10; Acts 10:42 Other verses which imply that Jesus passes judgment.
John 8:15, 12:47 Jesus. however, said that he judges no one. Luke 12:14; John 8:50 Verses which agree that Jesus does not judge. I Corinthians 6:2 It will be the "saints" who judge the whole world.
89
Mark 8:12-13; Matthew 12:38-40 Jesus announced that no signs would be given to that generation. except possibly the Resurrection itself.
John 20:30: Acts 2:22 Yet. Jesus provided many wonders and signs. See also: Mark 16:20: Acts 5:12, 8:13
90
Matthew 12:40 Jesus predicted that he would spend "three days and three nights" in the earth.
Matthew 27:57-60,62, 28:1-6: Mark 15:42-43,46, 16:1-6; Luke 23:53-54, 24:1-3 In fact. Jesus was paced in the tomb on the evening of Preparation Day, the day before the Jewish Sabbath, and arose by the morning after the Sabbath. Time elapsed in the earth: two nights. one day.
91
Matthew 13:55-56: Mark 6:3; Galatians 1:19 These passages imply that James the Less, Joseph (Joses), Simon and Judas were Jesus's brothers. Jesus also seemed to have several sisters.
Matthew 27:56: Mark 15:40,47 These imply that James and Joseph (Joses) were sons of some other Mary, not Jesus's mother.
92
Matthew 10:3: Mark 3:18 These state that Alpheus was father to James.
Matthew 27:56 & John 19:25 Taken together, these imply that Clophas, not Alpheus. was husband to the Mary the mother of James.
Note: The Greek word generally translated as "brother" in the Gospel manuscripts can also sometimes mean "cousin": this may be a partial resolution to these problems.
On the other hand. Luke 2:7 imples that Jesus was the first of several offspring. and John 1[11? - typist]:26-27 suggests that he had at least one sibling.
93
Matthew 17:1-2 Six days after Jesus made his prophecy of his second coming. the Transfiguration occured.
Luke 9:28-29 It occured after about eight days.
94
Who requested that James and John, Zebedee's children, should sit beside Jesus in his Kingdom?
Matthew 20:20-21 Their mother requested it.
Mark 10:35-37 James and John made the request.
95
Matthew 20:29-30 Following this last incident, on the way out of Jericho, Jesus encountered two blind men.
Mark 10:46-47 He encountered only one blind man.
96
Matthew 21:2-7 Next, two of the disciples brought Jesus an ass and a colt from the village of Bethphage.
Mark 11:2-7 The brought him only a colt.
97
Matthew 21:17-19 Jesus cursed the fig tree after purging the temple.
Mark 11:14-15.20 He cursed it before the purging.
98
Mark 11:12-14,20 The morning after Jesus cursed the fig tree. the disciples noticed it had withered. and expressed astonishment.
Matthew 21:9 The fig tree withered immediately. and the disciples registered surprise then and there.
99
Matthew 23:35 Jesus said that Zechariah was the son of Berechiah.
II Chronicles 24:20-22 Zechariah was the son of Jehoiada.
100
John 13:34-35 Jesus commanded us to love one another: in this #ay. all men will recognize his disciples.
Luke 14:26 You cannot be a disciple of Jesus unless you hate your father and mother, your siblings, your children. your wife.
101
Mark 14:16-18: Luke 22:13-14 The Last Supper was the Passover meal.
John 13:1. 18:28,39. 19:14-18 The Last Supper occured the day just before Passover. The trial and curcifixion occured on Passover Day.
102
John 18:12 Jesus was arrested by a detachment of Roman soldiers and some Jewish officials.
Matthew 26:47: Mark 14:43: Luke 22:47 Jesus was arrested by "multitudes" sent by the priests.
103
John 18:19,24 After his arrest, Jesus's preliminary interrogation was before Annas; after that, he was brought to Caiaphas.
Matthew 26:57 He was led directly to Caiaphas.
104
Matthew 27:28 Immediately after Pilate had Jesus flogged. the soldiers dressed Jesus in a scarlet robe.
Mark 15:17: John 19:2 It was a purple robe.
105
Mark 14:30,57-72 As Peter denied Jesus three times, the cock crowed twice.
Luke 22:34.60-61: Matthew 26:34.69-74 The cock crowed only once. Note that each version of the story conveniently adjusts Jesus's prophecy to fit the events.
106
To whom did Peter make his three denials?
First denial: to a maid and others (Matt 26:69-70): to the maid only (Mark 14:66-68).
Second denial: to another maid (Matt 26:71-72); to a man (Luke 22:58): to several people (John 18:55).
Third denial: to several bystanders (Matt 26:73-74): to a single man (Luke 22:59-60); to one of the servants (John 18:26- 27).
107
Matthew 27:3-8 Judas returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests, then hanged himself. The priests used the silver to establish a graveyard.
Acts 1:16-18 Judas purchased land with the silver, and subsequently died in a fall.
108
John 19:17 Jesus carried his own cross.
Matthew 27:32: Mark 15:21: Luke 23:26 Simon the Cyrenian was forced to carry Jesus's cross.
109
Mark 15:25 Jesus was crucified at about 9:00 a.m. (the "third hour").
John 19:14-15,31 He was crucified after noon on Preparation Day (the "sixth hour").
110
Each Gospel reports a different wording for the inscription placed above Jesus during the crucifixion.
Matthew 27:37 The inscription was, "This is Jesus the King of the Jews."
Mark 16:26 The inscription was simply, "The King of the Jews".
Luke 23:38 It was. ''This is the King of the Jews,'' in three languages.
John 19:19 It was. "Jesus of Nazareth the King of the Jews."
111
Mark 15:32: Matthew 27:44 Both of the criminals crucified with Jesus taunted him.
Luke 23:39 Only one of the criminals taunted him.
112
Matthew 27:46-50: Mark 15:34-37 Jesus's last words were: "My God. my God. why hast thou forsaken me?" (KJ version). (According to Matthew, he cried out once more in a loud voice.) Then Jesus died.
Luke 23:46 Jesus's last words were. "Father, into your hands I commend my spirit." Then Jesus died.
John 19:30 The last words were, "It is finished." Then Jesus died.
113
Matthew 27:55-56: Mark 15:40; Luke 23:49 The women, including Mary Magdalene and Jesus's mother, watched the crucifixion from a "distance" or from ''afar".
John 19:25 They stood near the cross or next to the cross.
114
(KJ Version only:)
Luke 23:44 At the moment of Jesus's death, darkness covered the whole earth for three hours.
But extensive documents are available from this period in history. No historian. no scientist. no astronomer--in Rome. Greece. Egypt. Palestine. Arabia. India. China or any other land--reported such an unusuai phenomenon.
115
(In the New American Bible and the New International Bible:)
Luke 23:54-56, 24:1 On the day before the Sabath, the women prepared spices and ointments for Jesus's body. Mark 16:1 They did not purchase the spices until the day after the Sabath.
116
How many women visited Jesus's tomb on the morning of the Resurrection, and when?
What did they discover?
John 20:1 Mary Magdalene. alone, first visited the tomb. It was "still dark." She found the stone rolled away.
Matthew 28:1-2 It was Mary Magdaline and another Mary who visited the tomb. It was dawn. They found the tomb still covered: thereupon an angel rolled back the stone.
Mark 16:1-4 The visitors were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, Johanna, and an undetermined number of other women. They found the stone rolled back.
117
John 20:8-9 The disciples did not know or understand that Jesus was to rise from the dead.
Luke 14:6-8: Matthew 20:17-19. 27:63-64: Mark 8:31, 10:34 Jesus had carefully explained to them. in simple terms. that this was to happen. Even Jesus's enemies understood the prophecy of the Resurrection.
118
Matthew 28:2.5: Mark 11 [???]:5-6 Immediately upon visiting Jesus's tomb. the women met one young man or angel. who addressed them.
Luke 24:4-5 The women encountered two young men or angels.
John 20:8-12 Mary Magdalene met two angels, but only later, after the disciples had examined the tomb and found it empty.
119
Mark 16:1,8 Mary Magdalene, Mary and Salome. discovering that Jesus had risen from death. fled in fear and said nothing to anyone.
Luke 24:8-9 Mary Magdalene, Mary. Johanna and other women. discovering this, returned and reported to the eleven apostles.
Matthew 28:9 The women saw Jesus on their way back to report to the disciples.
Luke 24:9,22-23 The women apparently did not see Jesus.
120
Matthew 28:1,9 Mary Magdaline obviously recognized Jesus when she first saw him after the Resurrection.
John 20:14 She did not recognize him.
121
Matthew 28:16-17 After the Resurrection. Jesus first appeared to the disciples in Galilee.
Luke 24:33.36 He first appeared to them in Jerusalem.
122
Luke 24:15,18,32-34.36,50-51 Jesus appeared first to Celopas and Simon Peter, then to all eleven disciples; then he immediately ascended to heaven.
John 20:14.19,26. 21:1 Jesus appeared first to Mary Magdalene, then to most of the disciples, a week later to a larger group of disciples, and later still to the disciples while they were fishing.
I Corinthians 15:4-8 Jesus appeared, in order. to Cephas (Peter). then to "the Twelve" (although Judas was dead at this time. and the others had not yet appointed Matthias to replace-- see Acts 1:23.26). then to a crowd of five hundred. then to James, then to all the apostles, and lastly to Peter.
123
John 2:13. 5:1 (?). 6:4, 11:55 Jesus's ministry spanned at least three, perhaps four passovers.
Matthew 26:1: Mark 14:1: Luke 22:1 The other Gospels mention only one passover. and strongly imply that Jesus's ministry lasted only about one year.
124
Acts 5:21 [???] We ought to obey God rather than man.
I Peter 2:13-14 Submit yourselves to man's 1aw.
Acts 7:15-16 Jacob was buried in Sychem. in a sepulchre which Abraham had purchased from Emmor.
Genesis 50:13 Jacob was buried in Canaan. in a cave which Abraham had purchased from Ephron the Hittite.
125
Acts 9:7 The men travelling with Saul heard Jesus's voice.
Acts 22:9 They did not hear the voice.
126
Acts 9:19-20,26-30 After his conversion, Paul (Saul) stayed with the disciples in Damascus, preached in the synagogues. fled to Jerusalem and preached there also, then went to Tarsus by way of Caesarea.
Galatians 1:16-21 After his conversion, Paul "conferred not with flesh and blood" (KJ version). but instead went off to Arabia, then returned to Damasucs. Three years later he went to Jerusalem; the only apostle he met was James. This account. Paul swears before God, the the true one. Thereafter, Paul says, he went to Syria and Cilicia.
127
Acts 13:18-22 (KJ version) The Israelites wandered 40 years in the wilderness after the release from Egypt. After that they had judges for 450 years. Then, Saul was king for 40 years. Total: 530 years.
Acts 13:18-22 (New International Bible) The time in the wilderness and the subsequent conquest of seven nations in Cannan took 450 years. After that, the Jews had judges for an unspecified period. Then Saul ruied for 40 years. Total: more than 490 years.
I Kings 6:1 (both versions) Much, much later, in the fourth year of Solomon's reign, only 480 years had passed since the release from Egypt. (Some versions of the Septuagint make this only 440. making the contradiction even more drastic.)
128
I Corinthians 11:14 Paul preaches that it is a shame for any man to have long hair.
Judges 13:15; Numbers 6:2,5: I Samuel 1:11 All verses which imply that long hair on a man is. or can be, a sign of holiness.
Galatians 2:7-8 Peter was apostle to the Jews.
Acts 15:7 Peter was apostle to the Gentiles.
129
Galatians 4:22: Genesis 16:15-16, 21:2-3 Abraham had two sons: first Ishmael, then Isaac.
Hebrews 11:17 Isaac was his only son.
130
I John 4:1-2 If a spirit confesses that Christ has come, it is a spirit of God.
Matthew 8:29; Mark 1:23-24. 3:11, 5:7: Luke 4:41 Cases where demons or unclean spirits confessed that Christ has come.
131
John 12:3#-40 # Isaiah 6:10 God causes people not to believe the truth in order to prevent them from being "healed".
II Thessalonians 2:11-12 God sends strong delusions on certain people in order to make them believe false things and be damned.
Romans 9:18 (& subsequent verses) More of the same. Salvation is a matter of God's whim: people have no choice or control or responsibility in the matter.
I Timothy 2:4 Contrary to all this, God "desires all men to be saved" and to have the truth!
132
Galatians 6:2 We should bear one another's burdens.
Galatians 6:5 Every man should bear his own burdens.
133
Romans 2:13 Those who keep the law will be declared just.
Romans 3:19 Keeping the law does not make anyone just.
134
Romans 3:23 All men have sinned in God's eye.
Genesis 6:9 Noah was perfect.
Job 1:1 Job was perfect.
135
Revelations 8:7 Fire will consume all the grass in the world.
Revelations 9:4 Later, an army of locusts will be instructed not to harm any of the grass.
FAILED PROPHECIES
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Genesis 15:18 God promised Abram (Abraham) that his descendants. the Jews, would receive all the land from the River of Egypt (the Nile) to the river Euphrates.
Joshua 1:3-4 Israelite territory will extend as far as the Euphrates. But Israelite territory has never extended to the Euphrates, and it is very doubtful that it ever even extended to the Nile.
137
Genesis 17:3.8 God gave the whole land of Canaan to Abraham and his descendants, to inhabit forever. (See also: Gen 13:15, Ex 32:13.) Canaan was the land west of the Jordan and the Dead Sea, between those waters and the Mediterranean. the general region later called Palestine. As a matter of history. the Jews did not receive all of Canaan for an everiasting possession. Revolts of the Jews against Rome in 132-135 AD led to their dispersal throughout the world. For eighteen centuries, Turkish, Persian and Arabic peoples occupied Palestine. The Jews began to return in significant numbers only in 1921, shortly before the creation of the modern state of Israel in 1948.
See Acts 7:5 and Hebrews 11:13, which candidly admit that God's promise or prophecy, in this case. failed.
138
Psalms 89:3-4 God promised David this his royal line and throne would last through "all generations".
Psalms 89:35-37 Again, God promised that David's royal throne will last as long as the sun and the moon. Yet, after Zedekiah, there was no Davidic king for 450 years. The royal line was finally restored with Aristobulus, of the Hasmonean dynasty, but eventually that ended also. According to New Testament prophecy, Jesus will receive the throne of David and reign forever (Luke 1:32-33). but even so. the royal line has a very evident break and the prophecy has failed.
139
Isaiah 17:1 A prophecy of the city of Damascus. It will become "a heap of ruins." But Damascus, the capital of Syria, thrives today. one of the oldest cities in the world, and has been continuously inhabited since its founding. It has never been a heap of ruins.
140
Isaiah 34:8-10 A prophecy that the land of Edom (which borders the Dead Sea and the Gulf of Aqaba) will become "burning pitch". The streams will become pitch. the soil will become brimstone. it will lay waste for generations. none will pass through it forever, and the smoke from the burning will go up forever. But this has never happened, and people continue to pass through Edom to this day.
141
Jeremiah 9:11 A prophecy that Jerusalem and the cities of Judah will become heaps of ruins, desolate, without inhabitants. Neither Jerusalem nor Judah have ever been desolate and uninhabited for any period. (The New Testament predits that Jerusalem will be an eternal city.)
142
Jeremiah 42:17 The Jews who returned to live in Egypt will all die by the sword, by famine or by pestilence: none will survive. But many Jews have lived in Egypt and died peacful deaths. Many live there today. In fact. in Alexandria the Jews established a great cultural center in the first century A.D.
143
Jeremiah 49:33 Hazor, an ancient city of Israel, will become a dwelling place for jackals (or dragons. KJ version). and no one will live there, forever. But people have never stopped living in the city of Hazor. and continue to do so today.
144
Jeremiah 51:24-26.28-31,40,53-55,58 Highlights from a long prophecy of the violent demise of Babylon and of all inhabitants of Babylonia or Chaldea. Many enemies will attack them: the walls of Babylon will be leveled, the gates set on fire: it will be as a burned-out mountain, a heap or ruins. a desolation forever.
Isaiah 14:23 Another prophecy of Babylon's destruction. It will become swampland. a haunt for owls. Apologists have claimed that the fulfillment of these prophecies proves the literal veracity of the Bible. Yet history shows that the violent permanent destruction of Babylon never happened. The context of the prophesied destruction indicates that it was to be a punishment for Babylon's domination of the Israelites. from 586 to 538 B.C. But when Babylon finally died, it was with a whimper, not a bang, in the second century A.D., when its last inhabitants abandoned it -- long, long after the citizens could still be considered responsible for ancient Babylon's treatment of Israel.
Many enemies marched against Babylon throughout its history, and from time to time an enemy would capture or occupy it or cause some damage, as occured to most other great cities, but there was never a holocaust with permanent effects. In 538 b.c., for example, the Persians conquored Babylon. The city later revolted, then the Persians captured it again, destroying the city walls in the process. But the walls were rebuilt and the city suffered little damage. In 330 B.C.. Alexander the Great captured Babylon. Most of the inhabitants move to the new city of Selucia. Henceforth, Jews inhabited the city until the second century A.D., when it was peacefully abandoned. Babylon is even mentioned in the New Testament (I Peter 1:1, 5:13).
145
Ezekiel 26:3-4,7-12, 27:32,36, 28:19 A prophecy of the downfall of Tyre (Tyrus). King Nebuchadnezzer of Babylon will come with an army, batter down the walls and towers, trample the streets, kill all the people, and toss the rubble into the sea. Tyre will come to a terrible end and "never shalt be any more" (KJ version). Despite the prophecy, and in spite of much effort. Babylon failed to capture or destroy Tyre. (The Bible admits, in fact, that the effort failed -- so God gave Egypt to Nebuchadnezzer as compensation! See Ezekiel 29:18-19.)
The eventual conquest of Tyre was a feat reserved for Alexander the Great, 240 years later. Again. in spite of all prophecy. Tyre was rebuilt, and the New Testament even mentions it (Acts 7:20; Luke 10:13; Mark 7:24.31). Today, Tyre (Sur) has over 10.000 inhabitants.
146
Ezekiel 29:9-12 Egypt will become "utterly waste and desolate", and no man or animal will pass through it, and no one will inhabit it, for fourty years. The Egyptians will be scattered through other nations. None of this has ever occured, and history shows that Egypt has been continuously inhabited
since the days of this prophecy. Ezekiel 29:15 Egypt will be "diminished" and never again rule over other nations. Yet, in the 1820's, Egypt conquered and ruled the Sudan.
147
Ezekiel 30:4-16.22-26 King Nebuchadnezzar will destroy the multitudes of Egypt. Ethopia, Libya and "all the mingled people" will fall by the sword. The rivers will run dry, the Egyptians will be scattered among other nations and dispersed through many countries. There will be no more Egyptian prince. Historically. this never occured. Egyptians still live in Egypt (the United Arab Republic): they were never scattered or dispersed.
Nebuchadnezzer never destroyed Egypt, nor conquored Ethopia, Libya or Lydia. Princes continued to rule in Egypt long after Nebuchadnezzar's death. The rivers of Egypt have not run dry.
147
Daniel 9:26 Jerusalem will be destroyed by a flood. No flood has ever destroyed Jerusalem, nor caused permanent damage.
148
Micah 7:13: Zephaniah 1:2-3,18 God will destroy everything on earth, including man and beast. fish and fowl: the whole world will be consumed, and become desolate, because of the wicked deeds of its inhabitants. Of course this has never occured. And in the light of New Testament prophecy, it never will occur!
149
Matthew 16:27-28 Jesus predicted his Return within the lifetime of some of his listeners. He will be accompanied by his angels, he said, and will "reward each man according to his works" (KJ version).
Matthew 24:3-35; Mark 13:24-30; Luke 21:27-32 Jesus's extensive and detailed description of the end of the world, and of his second coming. All will occur before the present generation passed away. (Some apologists have defended these passages with the observation that the word "generation" may also be translated as "race". But God had promised Abraham that the Jewish race would possess Palestine forever, so such an interpretation would simply render the passages meaningless.)
John 5:25 Very specific statement by Jesus that the "hour has now come" when the dead will #hear the voice of the Son of God" and "those who hear will live."
John 21:20-23 A suggestion by Jesus. after the Resurrection, that he would "return" during the lifetime of at least one of his disciples. Note that the anonymous author or scribe of the Book of John recognized the ostensible failure of this prophecy, and attempted to explain it in the subsequent verses. I Thessalonians 4:15-17 Another statement, by Paul, that Jesus's return would occur within the lifetime of some of his contemporaries.
I Peter 4:7: I Corinthians 7:29-31: Hebrews 10:37 Further statements that Jesus's second coming was imminent. Paul even advised people not to make plans for the future.
I John 2:18 John was even more specific than Paul. The final hour was at hand, and various Antichrists had already appeared on the earth. See also: Matthew 23:25: Hebrews 1:2. 9:26: I Timothy 6:13-14: I Peter 1:20: Revelations 22:20. All these passages imply that the apocalypse was very close, not in some mystical sense, but in human terms.
150
Acts 18:9-10 In a vision. Jesus guaranteed Paul that he would not be harmed or attacked so long as Paul continued preaching. Acts 21:20. a crowd attacked Paul: 23:2, the priests's attendant struck Paul: 24:27, Paul was imprisoned: 27:41-43. shipwrecked.
151
Isaiah 52:1 A prophecy that the "uncircumcised and unclean" shall no longer enter the city of Jerusalem. In spite of the prophecy. the uncircumcised and the unclean travel in Jerusalem to this day.
CRUELTIES AND INCONGRUITIES
152
Genesis 3:14,17 God punished Adam & Eve for disobeying.His warning and eating of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.
Genesis 2:25. 3:6-7, 3:22 But as God admits. until Adam & Eve ate from this tree, they did not know right from wrong. Therefore they could have not known it was wrong to disobey God's warning.
153
Exodus 4:21. 7:1. 10:1 It was actually God who caused Pharaoh to be obstinate about freeing the Jews. (Pharaoh's refusal was not an act of free will.)
154
Exodus 21:17 God proclaimed that a child must be put to death if, in a moment of anger, he reviles either of his parents for any reason.
155
Exodus 21:20-21 God also proclaimed that it is permissible for a man to beat a slave. as long as death does not occur immediately. The reason: "For the slave is the man's property."
156
(KJ version only:)
Exodus 22:28 God commanded us not to revile or denigrate other "gods."
Exodus 24:12. 31:18, 32:19. 34:1.4,10-28 These passages demonstrate great confusion about the identity of the Ten Commandments, the Decalogue inscribed on both the first and second set of stone tablets, which Moses placed in the Ark of the Covenant. The traditional version of the commandments appears in Exodus Chap. 20. According to Exodus, however, these are not the true Ten Commandments. Read the passages carefully. The true Commandments appear in Exodus 34:10-26, and they include such curious injunctions as: "Do not cook a young goat in its mother's milk," and "Do not offer a sacrifice to the Lord along with anything containing yeast."
Deuteronomy 5:4-22 The traditional Commandments appear here.
157
Exodus 32:27-28 Moses had the Levites murder their brothers, neighbors and companions over a religious difference. Three thousand people die.
158
Leviticus 19:21 God declared it a sin to trim your beard or sideburns.
159
Leviticus 19:28 God said that tatoos are a sin.
160
Leviticus 25:44-46 God authorized slavery.
161
Numbers 15:32-36 God commanded a man to be stoned to death for gathering sticks on the Sabbath Day.
162
Numbers 31:17-18 Moses ordered innocent women and children killed and commanded his officers to keep the virgins alive for themselves.
163
Deuteronomy 2:34 Again Moses ordered the slaughter of women and chiidren captured in war.
164
Further bloody injunctions from Moses to the Israelites: Deuteronomy 13:6-10 A man must slay his daughter, wife, son or friend for a difference in religion.
165
Deuteronomy 13:12-16 Whole cities must be destroyed. plundered and burned, the inhabitants all slaughtered, for the same reason.
166
Deuteronomy 20:12-17 God's injunction to Moses: If a city does not enslave itself to him immediately, lay seige to it. kill all the males and take women and children as slaves. Some cities, however, must be destroyed utterly: even women, children and babies must be murdered.
167
Deuteronomy 21:11-14 Female prisoners-of-war, said God, must be subject to the sexual whims of their captors. They may have only one month of mourning for slain parents. Thereafter, when the captor grows tired of a prisoner, he may cast her aside.
168
Deuteronomy 22:25-29 The penalty for raping a betrothed virgin is death: but the penalty for raping an unbetrothed virgin is to pay a fine to the father and then marry the woman. (This is the only Biblical injunction against rape!)
169
Deuteronomy 23:1-3 A man who has suffered sexual injury or mutulation has no right to worship in church (enter the assembly of the Lord). Illegitimate children, or children of incestious relationships, also may not worship or enter. In fact, you may not attend if any of your ancestors were illegitimate, up to ten generations back.
170
Deuteronomy 25:11-12 If a wife attempts to attempts to rescue or protect her husband from an assailant, and if in so doing she deliberately or accidently touches the assailant's private parts, her hand must be cut off. This is God's direct command.
171
Joshua's acts of mass murder, commanded or condoned by the Lord: Joshua 6:21 After capturing Jericho, the Israelites under Joshua's command slaughtered women, children and old men. Even the animals of the city were killed.
Joshua 8:2,24-25 Under God's command, Joshua killed all the inhabitants of the city of Ai, including women and children.
Joshua 10:28-37,40 Continuing in this fashion, Joshua obliterated the complete populations of Makkedah, Libnah, Lachish, Gezer, Eglon, Hebron, and all who dwelled in "the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs'' (KJ version). He destroyed everything that breathed, and did not even spare suckling babies.
172
Joshua 7:20-26 A man named Archen kept some of the plunder from Jericho for himself, instead of turning it all over to the priests. He confessed to the crime. As punishment, Joshua not only had Archen stoned and burned, but Archen's innocent sons and daughters as well. This deed appeased God.
173
Judges 8:16 Gideon, the son of Joshua (and the same Gideon for whom the Gideon Bible is named) used torture on the captive elders of Succoth.
174
Judges 11:24 The Bible recognizes the existence of the Ammonite god, Chemosh.
175
Intimations of human sacrifice in the Bible:
Judges 11:30-32.34.39 God delivered Jepthah's enemies into his hands in exchange for a human sacrifice.
Leviticus 27:28-29 Human beings "devoted" or made sacred to God must be put to death. (See also Exodus 22:28-29 in this context.)
II Samuel 21:1,8,9,14 God accepts the sacrifice (by dismemberment) of seven innocent men, and removes a famine.
176
I Samuel 15:3.8 On God's orders, Saul killed all the Amalekits, including women, infants and suckling babies.
177
II Samuel 6:6-7 Uzzah saved the Ark of the Covenant from tipping over by steadying it with his hand. God's response was to strike him dead.
178
II Samuel 12:14-18 God punished a man by killing his innocent child.
179
II Kings 2:23-24 The prophet Elisha (protegee of Elijah) caused bears to tear children apart for laughing at his bald head.
David, the "favorite of God," lived by robbery and unprovoked massacre of neighboring tribes, slaughtering both men and women (I Sam 27:8-9), lied afterwards about the killings (I Sam 27:10-11), ordered the blind and lame of the city of Zion to be killed (II Sam 5:8), murdered prisoners of war (II Sam 8:2), maimed horses (II Sam 8:4), tortured and killed more prisoners of war (II Sam 12:31 & I Chron 20:3, KJ version). With his last breath, he betrayed an oath and advocated murder (I Kings 2:8-9).
I Kings 11:6. 15:3,5; Acts 13:22 David followed the Lord completely. All his deeds were right in the eyes of God. except for those regarding Uriah (a small matter of adultery, betrayal and a single murder: see II Sam 11). David was a man after God's heart.
180
I Chronicies 16:30 The earth does not move through space.
181
Matthew 4:8; Luke 4:5 Also, two verses that suggest the earth is flat.
182
II Chronicles 1:11-12 God promised that Solomon would have material wealth greater than any other king, before or since. History shows otherwise. Solomon was weathy, but several kings in Solomon's day, and many since, were much wealthier. Some have been so wealthy that could have misplaced the value of all of Palestine without missing it. Note that if you reinterpret "wealth" to mean "spiritual wealth", the prophecy also fails, because Solomon lived his later years in spiritual darkness.
183
Job 1:6-12 Satan saw God.
III John 1:11 Those who have seen God do not do evil.
184
The Bible (KJ version and sourcetexts) seems to insist that the soul, or consciousness, exists in the kidneys (reins) and heart.
Psalms 73:21 "Thus my heart was grieved. and I was pricked in my reins."
Psalms 16:7 "My reins also instruct me in the night seasons."
Psalms 7:9 "God trieth the hearts and reins."
Proverbs 23:16 "My reins shall rejoice when my lips speak right things.''
Revelation 2:23 "I am He which searcheth the reins and heart."
On the other hand, the Bible never mentions the brain as the center of anything mental or spiritual.
185
Psalms 109:9.10,12 A holy psalm which cruelly calls down misery and suffering on a man's innocent wife and children.
186
Psalms 139:21.22 A holy psalm which declares "nothing but hatred" on those who oppose God.
187
Psalms 137:9 This psalm proclaims happiness for those who dash Babylonian children against rocks.
188
Biblical statements and prophecies about the "son of man" (KJ version): Psalms 146:3 Put not your trust in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
Job 25:6 The son of man is a worm, or like a worm. Psalms 8:4 & 144:3, in the KJ version, also belittle the "son of man".
189
Proverbs 14:15 The wise man does not have blind faith in everything said to him. but looks for proof. (Clearest in the New English Bible.)
190
Ecclesiastes 3:18-22 Men are as beasts: they have the same fate, the same "breath" (spirit): all go to the same place: none know if the breath (spirit) of man and beast have different destinies.
Ecclesiastes 12:9-10,12 The preacher or teacher who wrote these things was wise, and what he wrote was true. Be warned of any attempt to add to his words or change them.
191
Isaiah 23:17-18 Revenue from prostitution will be used to provide abundant food and fine clothes for those living in God's grace.
192
Jeremiah 19:9 God intentionally forces people into acts of cannabalism. The victims are innocent children.
193
Hosea 13:16 Because Samaria rebelled against God, God ordained that its pregnant women will be ripped open and innocent children dashed to the ground.
194
(KJ version only:)
Exodus 32:14 God does evil.
Isaiah 45:7 God creates evil.
Jeremiah 26:3 God inflicts evil.
Amos 3:6 God causes evil.
Lamentations 3:38 Evil comes from the mouth of God.
Mark 4:11-12 Jesus deliberately spoke in parables in order to exclude some people from being converted and being forgiven their sins.
See also: John 12:39-40: Isaiah 6:10.
195
Matthew 5:31-39 Jesus admitted that scripture contains errors. He disagreed with several specific teachings from the Old Testament, in particular Deut 24:1, Ex 21:24, Lev 24:20. Deut 19:21.
196
John 14:12 Jesus declared that anyone who believes in him will perform the same miracles and greater miracles than He performed. (Thus, anyone who does not perform greater miracles is, by Jesus's own words, an unbeliever.)
Mark 16:17-18 Also, that believers will be immune to poison and poisonous serpents, and will cure the sick by laying-on of hands. Note: The passage from Mark is absent from the two earliest, most reliable Greek manuscripts of the gospel.
197
Matthew 5:33-37 The Bible prohibits oaths or vows in any form, even oaths before God or oaths on the Bible.
198
Matthew 10:34-36 Jesus's purpose on earth was not to bring peace, but conflict, strife, discord.
Luke 12:49,51 Jesus came to spread fire on the earth, and to cause not peace. but division.
Luke 22:3 Jesus commanded his followers to procure swords.
199
Matthew 15:22-28 A Canannite woman pleaded with Jesus to help her aflicted daughter. Jesus refused to answer. She continued to plead. The disciples reviled her. Jesus announced that he will only help Israelites: to help Gentiles would be like taking bread from the Jews and casting it to dogs. The woman continued to humiliate herself. Finally, Jesus relented and agreed to heal the child, using the occasion the deliver a little homily on the virtues of faith and persistence.
200
Luke 7:36-50 By Jesus's own words, a woman was saved by her faith even before the crucifixion. Thus the crucifixion was not absolutely necessary for salvation.
201
Luke 15:7 A verse that implies that some people need no repentence.
202
(KJ version & New International version:)
Luke 14:26 Jesus demanded that his disciples hate their parents.
Matthew 10:35-36 Jesus said he came to turn children against their parents.
203
Luke 19:27 Jesus implied, in a parable. that those who do not accept him are to be killed.
204
Matthew 19:17; John 14:28 Verses implying that Jesus believed he was not God, but less than God.
John 14:28 God is Jesus's God as well as our God. Again, it appears that God and Jesus are not identical.
205
Matthew 19:21; Luke 14:33; Mark 10:21: Luke 3:11 Verses implying that those with wealth will never enter heaven.
206
Matthew 19:28 Speaking to the twelve disciples, Jesus gave his solemn word and prophecy that all twelve of them -- including Judas! -- will sit on twelve thrones in Heaven and judge the Twelve Tribes of Israel. (This was clearly when Judas was still a disciple.)
207
Matthew 24:29: Revelation 6:13 In the days of the Apocalypse. the stars will fall from the sky and land on the earth like "figs". In other words, the stars are small and subject to earthly gravity.
208
Matthew 27:52-53 At the moment of Jesus's death, many of the Jewish saints or patriarchs rose from the dead. They waited in their tombs until after Jesus's resurrection, three days later, then came forth and wandered about Jerusalem. The resurrection of the Jewish saints is easily the most spectacular miracle in Jesus's career, yet one hears very little of it. Not a word of it appears in the other gospels!
209
Acts 5:10 Ananias, a new convert to Christianity, sold his land and turned most of the money over to the apostles, but kept part for himself. Saint Peter, who wanted all the money, considered this deceitful. Peter reviled and criticised Ananias, and Ananias fell down dead. Heartlessly, Peter's followers threw him into a grave without telling his wife what had happened. Three hours later, the wife came looking for him. Peter reviled her the same way. She also expired on the spot, and the same followers threw her summarily into the ground.
210
Romans 13:1-7 Civil authorities receive their power from God, and everyone should submit to them. To rebell against governmental authority is to rebell against God. (See also Titus 3:1 and I Peter 2:13-14.) Therefore, faithful Christians must not disobey or oppose laws they regard as distasteful -- e.g., laws regarding abortion, taxation, the teaching of evolution, and even restriction of worship in Communist countries.
211
What about Universalism, the doctrine that all souls must eventually be saved? Many fundamentalists regard it as a terrible heresy, and yet some passages in the Bible seem to support it.
Psalm 72:11: Daniel 7:14.27 All nations, all kings, all people will serve and obey the messiah.
Joel 2:27-28 God will pour out his spirit upon all flesh. Psalms 103:9:
Lamentations 3:31 The Lord will not reject anyone forever, or keep His anger forever.
Colossians 1:20 God will reconcile all things to himself.
Romans 11:26 All Israel shall be saved; salvation will be universal among the Jews.
II Peter 3:9 It is God's will that none will perish, that all will come to repentance.
I Corinthians 11:5 When women pray, they must have their heads covered.
212
I Corinthians 12:24-37 There will be only harmony and no conflict or disagreement (discord) within the "body of Christ" (the Christian church). 2000 years of conflict and schism show this is untrue. Or else, nearly all Christians are damned.
213
I Corinthians 14:34-35 Women may never speak in chruch.
214
II Corinthians 12:2 There is more than one Heaven.
215
Galatians 5:2-3 Saint Paul insists that Christ is of "no use" to those who have themselves circumcised. Anyone circumcised is obligated to obey the entire Jewish law.
Philippians 3:5; Luke 2:21 And yet. Paul himself was circumcised: Jesus was circumcised.
216
I Timothy 2:11-12 No woman is to teach, nor to have authority over men.
217
(In the KJ and Revised KJ versions:)
I Timothy 3:2.12: Titus 1:6 Bishops may wed.
218
I Timothy 6:1: Titus 2:9 Two of many passages in the New Testament which explicitly condone slavery.
219
Ephesians 6:5: I Peter 2:18: Colossians 3:22 Slaves should serve their masters in all respects: never question, never rebell.
220
Revelation 21:1 After the Apocalypse, the new Earth will have no sea.
Scholars have estimated that the Bible contains over two thousand explicit or implicit contradictions. Some are major, some trivial: this list is only a small selection.
The Bible is not all the perfect, infallable word of God. Interestingly, the Bible itself confirms this. It tells us that all scripture is by inspiration of God (II Timothy 3:16), but also tells us that some of its parts are not from divine inspiration (I Corinthians 7:6. 5:12: II Corinthians 11:17). What could be clearer?
Name:Mark-Tao •
Date: 03/16/07 13:44
A: Pat • Date: 03/16/07 9:21
wow, I reported you for Poor taste, but I don't know if your post will get deleted or not. It's way too long. This is a place for conversation, not a site for you to download your book.
Name:roy •
Date: 03/16/07 14:47
A: Pat wrote:
Roy,
Have you check out your Koran and analyzed the verses that I brought up?
Roy Wrote:
it is my pleasure to answer to you, thanks for brought it up. I need to study for them give me some time please till revert to your findings in Qoran. By the way did you study my claims of miraculous verses I assert again below:
There are several miracles mentioned in Quran at year of 620 AD. Some barely understood today, and many of the mysteries yet to be solved.
-Expansion of universe
-Creation from a nucleus
-Eclipses, paths of planets, galaxies
-Dual sexes of everything created
-Relativity of Time
-Flowing journey of sun in a path
-Source of light of sun; reflecting feature of moon
-Possibility of lunar voyage
-Surface layers to the pit
-Elipsoid shape of earth, arctic basins are at lower altitude
-Feature of wind as carrier of seed
-Measure of rain fall equals 500 million liter/year
-Water curtain at waterpasses between seas
-Flow of current at deep sea, darkness of depth
-Feature of mountains as balancing weight to the earth surface
-Movements of mountains as clouds, departing continents
-Earthquake break lines
-Evolution of petroleum
-Photosynthesis of plants
-Breathing is uneasy at increased altitudes
-Environmental problems as a result of man fault. Warning “keep the balance”
-Sexes in plants
-Female bee making the hove
-Communication ability in birds and ants…
-Texture of man from earth and water
-Creation starting from water
-Phases of baby creation in the womb
-Identification on tips of fingers
-Love between the couples
-Groups intermingle with marriages
-Spread of mankind from city of Mecca
-Sabeans, Magrib dam catastrophy,
-Yemen Ad Comunity Extinction Lost Pillars found recent years
-Lut Comunity, Sodom Gomorah being the lowest point on earth surface Jordan
-Haman name (Vice president for Paroah) revelas recently Egypt
-Paroah of Egypt killed at Red sea finding. His corpse analysed as hit to the rocks and left at sea for a long time
-Old testament and new testament correction, amendment of stories
-Romans good news of victory over Persians within 3-9 years that happend.
-Transporting of matter in light speeds
-Possibility of death of stars and sun
-Boiling of oceans as a scientific result of global warming caused by icebergs melt or at resurrection day
-Big bang and big inner downfall
-Seven layers above sky, and beneath earth down to pit.
Name:CanuckChick •
Date: 03/16/07 15:07
A: Pat & JSM - Re Pat's long post with over 200 bible contradictions: Please see the post entitled "Different Body???"
These points were already posted there several days ago. I have answered and refuted the first ten, to the best of my ability, and will continue to dig, as time permits.
Name:sage •
Date: 03/16/07 18:45
A: Good grief.. ok so I WAS enjoying this thread, but Pat (and Roy) really.. its a discussion turned debate, not a place for a few chapters of a book or a thesis! If there are a couple of people who want to engage in a "lets trade quotes from bible for endless hours", I'd suggest exchanging private email info to do that, instead of turning a public forum into a private exchange.
If the posts can get back to the original topic and remain an acceptable length then I'd appreciate learning others view points.
Name:roy •
Date: 03/16/07 22:32
A: MISCONCEPTIONS ABOUT ISLAM
Islam is the name of a way of life which the Creator wants us to follow. We avoid the word religion because in many non-Islamic societies, there is a separation of "religion and state." This separation is not recognized at all in Islam: the Creator is very much concerned with all that we do, including the political, social, economic, and other aspects of our society. Hence, Islam is a complete way of life.
The source of Islam is Allah, the Creator of everything known and unknown to us. He is One, and He is Unique. Allah has taught us about Islam via two mediums: the Qur'an and the Sunnah. Both the Qur'an and Sunnah were transmitted to us, humanity, via the Messenger of Allah: Muhammad bin Abdullah, may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him (saas). The Messenger of Allah was nothing more and nothing less than a mortal messenger of the immortal Creator.
The Qur'an is a book containing the literal Word of Allah. It was transmitted from Allah to an angel of His (Gabriel), and from the angel to the Messenger of Allah who delivered it to us. The Qur'an covers a wide variety of topics, including evidence to support its claim of being the Word of the Creator, stories of earlier generations, rules which humanity is asked to obey, and information about the Hereafter. The Qur'an claims that it is protected from change by other than Allah, and this is confirmed by its 1400 year history. The earliest copies and the latest copies are the same.
The Sunnah is the term used to describe how the Messenger of Allah (saas) lived his life. The Messenger's life is an example for all Muslims, or those who accept Islam, to follow. Whatever the Messenger (saas) did, said, or approved of is a source of Islam just as much as the Qur'an. The Messenger's role is not overemphasized: his life was dictated by what the Creator desired, and the Messenger did not add or subtract to Islam according to his own personal whim. His life was such that his wife called him "a walking Qur'an."
The Qur'an and Sunnah are the only two mediums by which Allah has directly taught us about Islam. This leads us to the following simple but critical principle:
If any man or woman engages in a belief or action which clearly contradicts the Qur'an or Sunnah, then that belief or action cannot be thought of as `Islamic'.
This rule applies whether the man or woman is Muslim or non-Muslim. Hence, we cannot equate Islam and the Muslims. Islam is the way of life; Muslims are people who claim to follow that way of life. A Muslim may claim to follow Islam, but be wrong. In the context of misconceptions, we can restate the above principle in a slightly different way:
Some misconceptions about Islam are due to the wrong beliefs and actions of Muslims, and others are due to a significant lack of understanding and false stereotyping by non-Muslims.
[2:136] Say (O Muslims): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed to us and that which was revealed to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received, and that which the prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have surrendered. [Arabic "Muslimoon"]
MISCONCEPTION
IN ISLAM, DENİAL OF HUMAN RİGHTS İS OK BECAUSE:
• Islam is against pure democracy
• Islam tolerates slavery
The misconception does not follow from the reasons given, and the reasons ignore a great deal of information.
As stated earlier, Islam is a complete way of life. Given this, it is not surprising that the Creator is concerned with the method which we choose to govern ourselves. The preeminent rule which the Islamic state must observe is stated in the Qur'an (translation follows):
[4:59] O you who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If you differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if you do believe in Allah and the Last Day; That is best, and most suitable for final determination.
From this verse, it is clear that the state's obligation of obedience to the Creator is as important as the obedience of the individual. Hence, the Islamic state must derive its law from the Qur'an and Sunnah. This principle excludes certain choices from the Islamic state's options for political and economic systems, such as a pure democracy, unrestricted capitalism, communism, socialism, etc. For example, a pure democracy places the people above the Qur'an and Sunnah, and this is disobedience to the Creator. However, the best alternative to a pure democracy is a democracy that implements and enforces the Shari'ah (Islamic Law).
The Creator also states in the Qur'an (translated):
[42:36-38] So whatever thing you are given, that is only a provision of this world's life, and what is with Allah is better and more lasting for those who believe and rely on their Lord, and those who shun the great sins and indecencies, and whenever they are angry they forgive, and those who respond to their Lord and keep up prayer, and their rule is to take counsel among themselves, and who spend out of what We have given them.
Allah orders us in this verse to conduct our matters by taking counsel among ourselves, or by consulting each other. This is the methodology of the Islamic state, to consult one another, but to always keep the Qur'an and Sunnah paramount. Any law which contradicts the Qur'an or Sunnah is unlawful. This broad principle of consultation is certainly wide enough to encompass a form of government where all are heard - in fact, encouraged to be heard. The early Islamic states were of this form. The petty governments of many `Muslim countries' today do not apply this principle and in fact commit many crimes against the people.
As for slavery, Islam is unique among the `religions' in its close attention to the peaceful removal of this practice. Before the advent of Islam, slavery was widespread all over the world.
Also from the Sunnah, specifically in the study of the Sunnah called Malik's Muwatta, we find:
[38:9:15] Narrated Aisha Ummul Mu'minin: The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, was asked what was the most excellent kind of slave to free. The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, answered, "The most expensive and the most valuable to his master."
Also from the Sunnah, specifically in the study of the Sunnah called Sahih Bukhari, we find:
[3:46:721] Narrated Al-Ma'rur bin Suwaid: I saw Abu Dhar Al-Ghifari wearing a cloak, and his slave, too, was wearing a cloak. We asked him about that (i.e. how both were wearing similar cloaks). He replied, "Once I abused a man and he complained of me to the Prophet. The Prophet asked me, `Did you abuse him by slighting his mother?' He added, `Your slaves are your brethren upon whom Allah has given you authority. So, if one has one's brethren under one's control, one should feed them with the like of what one eats and clothe them with the like of what one wears. You should not overburden them with what they cannot bear, and if you do so, help them (in their hard job)."
As a result of the teachings of Islam, slavery was almost completely eradicated from many areas of the Muslim world, peacefully and without bloodshed.
MISCONCEPTION
IN ISLAM, WOMEN ARE İNFERİOR TO MEN BECAUSE:
• a man can marry up to 4 wives, a woman can marry only one man
• a man's share of inheritance is bigger than a woman's
• a man can marry a non-Muslim, a woman cannot
• women must wear the veil
This widely held misconception does not remotely follow from the reasons given. The first and most important observation to make about the popular question "Are men and women equal?" is that it is a badly-formed, unanswerable question. The problem which many people conveniently ignore is that "equal" is not defined. This is a very critical point: the equality must be specified with respect to some measurable property. For example, women on average are superior to men if we ask who is shorter in height than the other ("Growth and Development", Encyclopaedia Britannica, 1992). Women are also superior on average if we ask whom do children bond to deeper, mothers or fathers. Women are also superior on average if we ask who has a tendency to socialize more. On the other hand, men are superior on average if we ask who is taller in height than the other. And so on: every question can be turned around, and more importantly these are properties which are irrelevant.
What then, is the really important property which we are worried about in terms of gender equality? Naturally, from the point of view of the Qur'an and Sunnah, the obvious important property is who is dearer to Allah, men or women? This question is emphatically answered in the Qur'an (translation),
[4:124] If any do deeds of righteousness - be they male or female - and have faith, they will enter Paradise, and not the least injustice will be done to them.
[33:35] For Muslim men and women, for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for truthful men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in charity, for men and women who fast, for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah's praise, for them has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward.
The Qur'an and Sunnah repeat over and over again that Allah only favors one person over another based on that person's awareness, consciousness, fear, love, and hope of Allah (the Arabic word is difficult to translate: Taqwa). All other criteria are excluded: gender, ethnic group, country, ancestry, etc.
Given that Allah does not favor one gender over the other in His attention to us (and it helps to remember that Allah is neither male nor female), we can now address the differences between the genders in Islam. First, men and women are not the same as we know. The Creator states in the Qur'an (translation),
[3:36]...and the male is not like the female...
Men and women are different in their composition, and in their responsibilities under Islam. However, both are bound by obligations to one another, especially the following important one which must be understood in any discussion on men and women. From the Qur'an (translation),
[24:32] And marry those among you who are single and those who are fit among your male slaves and your female slaves; if they are needy, Allah will make them free from want out of His grace; and Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing.
In this verse, the Creator emphasizes that marriage is to be vigorously pursued by the Muslims: the state of being single is not to be maintained. With this in mind, we can begin to understand the four reasons cited above for the nonetheless erroneous conclusion.
Men and women are different in their responsibilities towards the families that they are strongly encouraged to set up. Women are not obligated to work, whereas men are obligated. The man must provide for the family, but the woman does not have to spend out of her money for it, though she gets a reward for doing so. Allah says in the Qur'an (translation),
[4:34] Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.
Given that husbands are obligated to provide for wives, and that marriage is a highly recommended goal of Islam, it is easy to see why women's inheritance share is half that of men. We note also that men are obligated to provide a suitable dowry to women on marriage. In fact, it is preferable at this point to speak in terms of husbands and wives instead of men and women. Allah says in the Qur'an (translation),
[4:4] And give women their dowries as a free gift, but if they of themselves be pleased to give up to you a portion of it, then eat it with enjoyment and with wholesome result.
Allah says in the Qur'an (translation),
[2:228]...And they (women) have rights similar to those (of men) over them in kindness, and men are a degree above them...
This one degree in no way affects the position of the Creator in which He has stated that He does not hold women dearer to him than men, or vice versa. Rather it is simply a way of partitioning responsibilities in a household of two adults: someone must make the final decision on daily matters. As will be shown below in a section on a different misconception, though the final decision rests with the husband, it is through mutual consultation that decisions are best reached at.
While men are allowed to marry up to four wives, they are also commanded to meet the preconditions of being able to financially support them. They must also deal with each wife justly and fairly with respect to marital and economic obligations. Allah says in the Qur'an (translation),
[4:3] If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.
Moreover, women are allowed to reject any marriage proposal made to her by prospective suitors, thus if she does not feel she can abide by the rules of the Qur'an and Sunnah if she marries a certain person, she can reject his proposal. While it is irrelevant to Islam, it is worthwhile to note that both Judaism and Christianity allow polygamy. The idea is not as foreign to the non-Muslims as is often claimed.
Finally, the wearing of the veil by women is also an illogical premise to claim that women are inferior to men. It is more appropriate to indict a society of female exploitation if it tolerates pornography rather than if it enforces the veil. Given that Allah is neither male nor female, given that He does not endear people to Himself based on their gender, given that the Creator cares about all of us male or female, given that the sexual and violent drive of men is stronger than that of women...given all this, it is illogical to cast a negative light on the following injunctions contained in the Qur'an (translation),
[33:59] O Prophet, tell your wives and daughters and the believing women to draw their outer garments around them (when they go out or are among men). That is better in order that they may be known (to be Muslims) and not be annoyed...
[24:30-31] Say to the believing man that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that will make for greater purity for them; and Allah is well acquainted with all that they do. And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; and that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what must ordinarily appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands...
On this misconception, there is a great deal more to write, most of it showing how current practices in many Muslim lands go against what the Qur'an and Sunnah have ordained, lands in which women are treated as property (unIslamic), are not educated (unIslamic), are forbidden their economic rights (unIslamic), and more. On this point in particular, we encourage everyone to consult the Qur'an and Sunnah before incriminating Islam. Always remember that Islam is a complete way of life from the Creator, and that Muslims are people who claim to follow that way of life. A Muslim may claim to follow Islam, but be wrong.
MISCONCEPTION
ISLAM İS WELL-SUİTED ONLY TO THE ARABS BECAUSE:
• most Muslims are Arabs
• the Qur'an is in Arabic
The first reason for this misconception is far from the truth. Of the more than one billion Muslims around the world, only 18% are Arab. The most populous Muslim country in the world is Indonesia. The second most populous Muslim country is Bangladesh. Neither of these countries is Arab.
Islam is the fastest growing major religion in the world (Encyclopedia Britannica). It has adherents on all the populated continents, and is accessible to Arabs and non-Arabs alike. In the United States, Muslims are expected to become the largest religious minority around the turn of the century, outstripping the Jews.
The universal appeal of Islam to Arabs and non-Arabs comes in spite of the Qur'an being in Arabic. Allah states in the Qur'an that this way of life called Islam is for all people (translation follows),
[21:107] And We (Allah) have not sent you (Muhammad) but as a mercy to the worlds.
[34:28] We have not sent you but as a universal (Messenger) to men, giving them glad tidings, and warning them (against sin), but most men understand not.
Moreover, the Creator does not use the color or mother tongue of people to judge them, be they Arab or not. Instead, it is the level of their awareness of Allah which is the criterion,
[49:13] O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know each other (not that you may despise each other). Verily the most honored of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things)."
The choice of Arabic as the language of the Qur'an is explained very simply and clearly (translation follows),
[41:44] And if We (Allah) had made it a Qur'an in a foreign tongue, they would certainly have said: "Why have not its communications been made clear? What! a foreign (tongue) and an Arab!" Say: It is, to those who believe, a guidance and a healing; and (as for) those who do not believe, there is a heaviness in their ears and it is obscure to them; these shall be called to from a far-off place.
However, it is also important to emphasize that the Qur'an in its revealed form in Arabic is the literal Word of the Creator - but any translation is not. Each translation is more accurately called a translation of an interpretation, for every translator includes his or her own bias.
MISCONCEPTION
ISLAM REJECTS JESUS BECAUSE:
• Jesus is not accepted as `the Son of God'
The Qur'an and Sunnah both teach us emphatically and without any doubt that the Creator considers the statement of the Trinity to be a great falsehood. The Qur'an states (translation):
[19:88-93] They say: "(Allah) the Most Merciful has begotten a son!" Indeed you have put forth a thing most monstrous! At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin, that they should invoke a son for (Allah) the Most Merciful. For it is not consonant with the majesty of (Allah) the Most Merciful that He should beget a son: Not one of the beings in the heavens and the earth but must come to (Allah) the Most Merciful as a servant.
However, the misconception that Jesus is rejected does not follow from the reason given above. It is more precise to say that identifying Jesus as `the Son of God' is rejected. As a Messenger of Allah, Jesus is accorded the same honor that all the Messengers are given, as the following verse attests to (translation),
[2:136] Say (O Muslims): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed to us and that which was revealed to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received, and that which the prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have surrendered. [Arabic "Muslimoon"]
MISCONCEPTION
ISLAM TOLERATES THE KİLLİNG OF İNNOCENTS BECAUSE:
• Muslims can be terrorists
• Muslims engage in `holy wars' (jihad)
• Islam spread by the sword
• it has a harsh and cruel judicial system
This misconception is one of the most widely held misconceptions about Islam today. And yet in the Qur'an, the Creator unambiguously states (translation),
[17:33] Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, we have given his heir authority (to demand retaliation or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life, for he is helped (by the Law)
Based on this verse, it is Islamically unlawful to murder anyone who is innocent of certain crimes. It is well to remember at this point the distinction made above between Qur'an and Sunnah, and the Muslims: only the Qur'an and Sunnah are guaranteed to be in accordance with what the Creator desires, whereas the Muslims may possibly deviate. Hence, if any Muslim kills an innocent person, that Muslim has committed a grave sin, and certainly the action cannot be claimed to have been done "in the name of Islam."
It should be clear, then, that "Muslim terrorist" is almost an oxymoron: by killing innocent people, a Muslim is commiting an awesome sin, and Allah is Justice personified. This phrase is offensive and demeaning of Islam, and it should be avoided. It is hoped that as the general level of public awareness and understanding of Islam increases, people will keep "terrorism" and "Islam" separate from each other, not to be used in the same phrase.
Another reason advanced in support of the misconception is that the Creator has imposed `jihad' on us. The term "holy war" is from the time of the Crusades and originated in Europe as a rallying cry against the Muslims in Jerusalem. Jihad is an Arabic word meaning struggle, but in the context of many verses in the Qur'an, it carries the meaning of military struggle, or war. Allah gradually introduced the obligation of military struggle to the Muslim community at the time of the Messenger (saas). The first verse ever revealed in that connection is as follows (translation),
[22:39] Permission (to fight) is given to those upon whom war is made because they are oppressed, and most surely Allah is well able to assist them;
This verse lays down the precondition for all war in Islam: there must exist certain oppressive conditions on the people. The Creator unequivocally orders us to fight oppression and persecution, even at the expense of bloodshed as the following verse shows (translation),
[2:190-192] And fight in the cause of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits. And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from where they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque (in Makkah) until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the reward of the unbelievers. But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.
As one might imagine, the method of military struggle has been clearly and extensively defined in the Qur'an and Sunnah. Since this subject is a huge one, we simply summarize part of it by noting that it is unlawful to kill women, children, the infirm, the old, and the innocent. From the Sunnah, specifically in the study of the Sunnah called Sahih Bukhari, we find:
[4:52:257] Narrated 'Abdullah: During some of the Ghazawat of the Prophet a woman was found killed. Allah's Apostle disapproved the killing of women and children.
A related misconception to jihad is often propagated by Muslims who say that "Jihad is only for self-defense of physical borders." The Qur'an and Sunnah refute this notion categorically. As the verses cited above show, jihad is obligatory wherever there is injustice, and Muslims need not acknowledge imaginary lines around the earth when it comes to upholding this obligation.
Hence, the Creator obligates us to fight wherever people are being grossly deprived of freely hearing or practicing the Message of Allah as contained in the Qur'an and Sunnah. Sayyed Qutb, a famous Muslim scholar eloquently discusses the notion of jihad and self-defense in his book Milestones,
"If we insist on calling Islamic jihad a defensive movement, then we must change the meaning of the word `defense' and mean by it `defense of man' against all those elements which limit his freedom. These elements take the form of beliefs and concepts, as well as of political systems, based on economic, racial, or class distinction."
A third reason often cited for the misconception about Islam which says that this way of life tolerates the killing of innocents is that the judicial system of Islam is unnecessarily harsh. This reason is weak in two respects. First, it presupposes that human beings are more just and more merciful than the Creator, and therefore we can change the law. Second, it is often based on gross oversimplifications of Islamic law, such as saying "all thieves get their hands cut off."
The Qur'an and Sunnah make it clear that the law of retaliation (or equality) governs us for murder and physical injury, but forgiveness is better as the following verses from the Qur'an show (translation),
[2:178] O you who believe! the law of equality is prescribed to you in cases of murder: the free for the free, the slave for the slave, the woman for the woman. But if any remission is made by the brother of the slain, then prosecution (for the bloodwit) should be made according to usage, and payment should be made to him in a good manner; this is an alleviation from your Lord and a mercy; so whoever exceeds the limit after this he shall have a painful chastisement.
[42:40-43] The recompense for an injury is an injury equal thereto (in degree): but if a person forgives and makes reconciliation, his reward is due from Allah: for (Allah) loves not those who do wrong. But indeed if any do help and defend themselves after a wrong (done) to them, against such there is no cause of blame. The blame is only against those who oppress men and insolently transgress beyond bounds through the land, defying right and justice: for such there will be a grievous penalty. And whoever is patient and forgiving, these most surely are actions due to courage.
The Creator ordained the law of retaliation on us knowing full well that we might question it. In many non-Muslim societies today, there are ongoing debates about the death penalty. In Islam, this discussion is moot: the Creator has decided the matter for us. He has however given us an interesting verse in the Qur'an which advises to consider the matter carefully if we want to understand it (translation follows),
[2:179] And there is life for you in (the law of) retaliation, O people of understanding, that you may guard yourselves.
Most people are also unaware of the stringent conditions which must be met for the law of retaliation to be applicable. The Sunnah is full of examples of the Messenger of Allah showing us when the law's preconditions were fulfilled. For example, a thief is only liable to lose his or her hand if the item stolen exceeds a certain value, and if it is proven that the item was taken from its normal resting place. Stealing food is not punishable by the loss of one's hand, and other items are exempt as well. This is just an example of how gingerly the law is applied in Islam.
Finally, another reason advanced for this prevalent misconception is that Islam `spread by the sword'. It should be clear by now that we must always distinguish between the Qur'an and Sunnah and the Muslims when it comes to determining what the Creator has asked of us. Allah has stated clearly in the Qur'an (translation),
[2:256] There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever rejects Satan (and what he calls to) and believes in Allah, he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handhold, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.
Hence, it is impossible to accept Islam under duress. Even if misguided Muslims were to try to `force' Islam somehow on others, it would not be accepted by the Creator based on this verse.
Historical arguments that try to demonstrate that Muslims did not `convert others by force' are actually secondary to the argument given above. However, it is worth noting that historically, Islam did spread by peaceful means. The Message of the Creator was conveyed to Africa and to southeast Asia by trading Muslims, and today the largest Muslim country in the world is Indonesia. The military expeditions that led to the conquest of large swathes of territory in Europe and central Asia were all marked by tolerance of other creeds and faith.
Again, it is important to remember that Allah declares it IMPOSSIBLE that Islam can be forced on a person, hence Muslims find it useless to try!
MISCONCEPTION
ISLAM İS İNTOLERANT OF OTHER RELİGİONS BECAUSE
• the Qur'an condemns the other religions as false
The Creator has taught us in the Qur'an and Sunnah that all other `religions' and ways of life are unacceptable to Him if a person is aware of Islam. The Qur'an states (translation),
[3:85] And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.
However, even though the Creator has clearly specified that no other way of life is acceptable to Him except Islam (i.e. submission to Him as embodied in the Qur'an and Sunnah), He has also commanded the Muslims to be tolerant of people who espouse other creeds. From the Sunnah, specifically in the study of the Sunnah called Al-Awsat by Al-Tabarani, we find regarding those non-Muslims living in the Islamic state,
The Messenger of Allah (saas) said, "One who kills a non-Muslim person under protection (Arabic: dhimmi) will not even smell the fragrance of Paradise."
Also from the Sunnah, specifically in a report from Al-Khatib, we find that the Messenger of Allah (saas) also said:
Whoever hurts a non-Muslim person under protection, I am his adversary, and I shall be an adversary to him on the Day of Resurrection.
In short, Islam is intolerant of false ideas, however it is tolerant of the people who hold to those ideas. One historical example of Muslims living up to the standard of Islam can be found from the time of the Spanish Inquisition. During that disaster sprung by misguided Catholics, some Spanish Jews fled to Muslim Turkey and to this day, there is a community of Spanish-speaking Jews in Turkey. Another example may be found during one of the Crusader invasions from Western Europe. Some of the the Catholic Western European knights were so likely to rape, murder, and pillage the Jews and Orthodox Christians, that when the Muslims won, they were treated as a liberating force by those non-Muslims.
MISCONCEPTION
ISLAM İS A RACİST, AFRO-CENTRİC CULT BECAUSE:
• Nation of Islam espouses the superiority of the black man
• The Nation of Islam recognizes God as a black man
One of the great misconceptions of the twentieth century is that the so-called `Nation of Islam' is a Muslim community, or more precisely: a community which submits to Allah by following the Qur'an and Sunnah. The `Nation of Islam' is a man-made way of life which borrowed some elements of Islam and then mixed them with a large number of inventions and lies to reach their present doctrines.
It suffices to point out the `Nation of Islam's deviation in two areas. First, they reject the essence of Islam by concocting a story wherein the Creator takes the form of a black man. From their on-line publications, we find that the `Nation of Islam' believes in
...one God (Allah) and that Allah (God) appeared in the Person of Master W. Fard Muhammad, July, 1930; the long awaited `Messiah' of the Christians and the `Mahdi' of the Muslims...
However, the Creator states in the Qur'an (translation),
[6:103] No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision: He is above all comprehension, yet is acquainted with all things.
The `Nation of Islam' also claims that white men are `devils', and that black people are in general superior to all other races. However, from the Sunnah, specifically in the Messenger of Allah's farewell sermon, we find the Messenger (pbuh) saying:
All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over a black nor a black has any superiority over a white - except by piety and good action.
There are many other beliefs which the `Nation of Islam' holds which take it outside of Islam. It is interesting to note that in the mid-1970's, the overwhelming majority of the group realized its errors and converted to true Islam. There is, however, a splinter group which remains active today.
MISCONCEPTION
ISLAM PRODUCES A LAZY, UNEDUCATED SOCİETY BECAUSE:
• all things come from God, and so fatalism is OK
• modern technology and science are condemned
The reasons given for this misconception are false, and the misconception itself is actually refuted directly by the Qur'an and Sunnah. While it is true that the Creator is the source of everything to us, it is not true that this can be used as an excuse for humanity to hide behind as the following verses from the Qur'an state (translation),
[16:35] The worshippers of false gods say: "If Allah had so willed, we should not have worshipped anything but Him - neither we nor our fathers,- nor should we have prescribed prohibitions other than His." So did those who went before them. But what is the mission of messengers but to preach the Clear Message?
[43:20] They (the idolators) say, "If it had been the will of (Allah) the Most Merciful, we should not have worshipped such (deities)!" Of that they have no knowledge: they do nothing but lie!
Allah has taught us via the Qur'an and Sunnah that we all have a certain amount of free will. This free will must be exercised properly in accordance with the Qur'an and Sunnah to please the Creator. This is plenty of motivation for all Muslims to push themselves to be the most knowledgeable, effective Muslims they can be. If Muslim societies today are not meeting their potential, it is surely not due to their knowledge of Islam, rather it is their ignorance of this way of life. The importance of seeking knowledge and working are made clear in the Sunnah.
From the Sunnah, specifically in the study of the Sunnah called Sunan Abu-Dawud, we find:
[9:1637] Narrated Anas ibn Malik: A man of the Ansar came to the Prophet (pbuh) and begged from him.
He (the Prophet) asked: Have you nothing in your house? He replied: Yes, a piece of cloth, a part of which we wear and a part of which we spread (on the ground), and a wooden bowl from which we drink water.
He said: Bring them to me. He then brought these articles to him and he (the Prophet) took them in his hands and asked: Who will buy these? A man said: I shall buy them for one dirham. He said twice or thrice: Who will offer more than one dirham? A man said: I shall buy them for two dirhams.
He gave these to him and took the two dirhams and, giving them to the Ansari, he said: Buy food with one of them and hand it to your family, and buy an axe and bring it to me. He then brought it to him. The Apostle of Allah (pbuh) fixed a handle on it with his own hands and said: Go, gather firewood and sell it, and do not let me see you for a fortnight. The man went away and gathered firewood and sold it. When he had earned ten dirhams, he came to him and bought a garment with some of them and food with the others.
The Apostle of Allah (pbuh) then said: This is better for you than that begging should come as a spot on your face on the Day of Judgment. Begging is right only for three people: one who is in grinding poverty, one who is seriously in debt, or one who is responsible for compensation and finds it difficult to pay.
Also from the Sunnah, specifically in the study of the Sunnah called Sunan Ibn Majah, we find that the Messenger of Allah said:
Seeking knowledge is a duty upon every Muslim.
Knowledge of the Qur'an and Sunnah are clearly the best types of knowledge, and knowledge which benefits humanity is good as well. The Qur'an and Sunnah do not condemn the study of this earth and in fact the Creator encourages us to investigate the world we live in according to the following verse from the Qur'an (translation),
[3:190-191] Behold! in the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the alternation of night and day, there are indeed Signs for people of understanding. People who celebrate the praises of Allah, standing, sitting, and lying down on their sides, and contemplate the (wonders of) creation in the heavens and the earth, (with the thought): "Our Lord! not for nothing have You created (all) this! Glory to You! Give us salvation from the penalty of the Fire."
_____________________-___________________
Anything- good in this document is from Allah, while everything bad in it is from us.
Name:roy •
Date: 03/17/07 10:49
A: THE REASONS ; WHY SOME JEWISH HARDLINERS HATE MUSLIMS
62: 6- Say: O ye that stand on Judaism! If ye think that ye are friends to Allah, to the exclusion of (other) men, then express your desire for Dearth, if ye are truthful!
9: 30- 31The Jews call Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the Unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the truth. They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but one Allah: there is no god but he. Praise and glory to him: (far is he) from having the partners they associate (with him).
7: 168- We broke them up into sections on this earth. There are among them some that are the righteous, and some that are the opposite. We have tried them with both prosperity and adversity: in order that they might turn (to us).
5: 82- Strongest among men in enmity to the Believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the Believers wilt thou find those who say, we are Christians: because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.
3:112- Shame is pitched over them (like a tent) wherever they are found, except when under a convenient (of protection) from Allah and from men; they draw on themselves wrath from Allah, and pitched over them is (the tent of) destitution. This because they rejected the Signs of Allah, and slew the prophets in defiance of right; this because they rebelled and transgressed beyond bounds.
2:135- They say: "Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided (to salvation)." Say thou: "Nay! (I would rather) the Religion of Abraham, the True, and he joined not gods with Allah."
17: (2-8)
We gave Moses the Book, and made it a guide to the Children of Israel, (commanding): take not other than me as Disposer of (your) affairs. O ye that are sprung from those whom we carried (in the ark) with Noah verily he was a devotee most grateful. And we gave (clear) warning to the Children of Israel in the Book, that twice would they do mischief on the earth and be elated with mighty arrogance (and twice would they be punished) When the first of the warnings came to pass, we sent against you our servants given to terrible warfare: they entered the very inmost parts of your homes; and it was a warning (completely) fulfilled. Then did we grant you the return as against them: we gave you increase in resources and sons, and made you the more numerous in man power. If ye did well, ye did well for yourself; if ye did evil, (ye did it) against yourself. So when the second of the warnings came to pass, (we permitted your enemies) to disfigure your faces, and to enter your temple as they had entered it before, and to visit with destruction all that fell into their power. It may be that your Lord may (yet) show mercy unto you; but if ye revert (to your sins), we shall revert (to our punishments): and we have made Hell a prison for those who reject (all Faith).
74:(49- 56)
Then what is the matter with them that they turn away from admonition? As if they were affrighted asses, Fleeing from a lion! Forsooth, each one of them wants to be given scrolls (of revelation) spread out! By no means! But they fear not the Hereafter. Nay, this surely is an admonition: Let any who will, keep it in remembrance! But none will keep it in remembrance except as Allah wills: He is the Lord of Righteousness, and the Lord of Forgiveness.
Name:Pat •
Date: 03/17/07 14:44
A: Mark-Tao wrote:
A: Pat,
wow, I reported you for Poor taste, but I don't know if your post will get deleted or not. It's way too long. This is a place for conversation, not a site for you to download your book.
Pat wrote:
Who the hell are you? The Jesus tomb secret Police.?
The post is long because I wanted to stress out all the contradictions in the Bible.
You are just peeve off. Chill out.
Name:Perceptions •
Date: 03/17/07 17:08
A: 2.62: Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.
Name:roy •
Date: 03/18/07 23:02
A: Pat .Here are my answers: I hope the study, I made, deserves some respect. You are free to dig any weak points, you may deem necessary. I am here to reply.
ANSWERS TO A CRITICS LADEN NON-BELIEVER AGAINST MUSLIM FAITH.
4:82 DO THEY NOT CONSIDER THE QURAN (WITH CARE)? HAD IT BEEN FROM OTHER THAN ALLAH, THEY WOULD SURELY HAVE FOUND THEREIN MUCH DISCREPANCY.
9:32- Fain would they extinguish Allah's light with their mouths, but Allah will not allow but that his light should be perfected, even though the Unbelievers may detest (it).
61:8- Their intention is to extinguish Allah's Light (by blowing) with their mouths: but Allah will complete (the revelation of) His Light, even though the Unbelievers may detest (it).
74 : 16-26 By no means! For to Ours Signs he has been refractory! Soon will I visit him with a mount of calamities! For he thought and he plotted; And woe to him! How he plotted! Yea, woe to him: how he plotted! Then he looked round; Then he frowned and he scowled; Then he turned back and was haughty; Then said he: This is nothing but magic, derived from of old; This is nothing but the word of a mortal! Soon will I cast him into Hell Fire!
3:119 Lo! you are they who will love them while they do not love you, and you believe in the Book (in) the whole of it; and when they meet you they say: We believe, and when they are alone, they bite the ends of their fingers in rage against you. Say: Die in your rage; surely Allah knows what is in the breasts.
MISPERCEPTION : sex with captives
33:50 O Prophet! surely We have made lawful to you your wives whom you have given their dowries, and those whom your right hand possesses out of those whom Allah has given to you as prisoners of war,
If you correctly study how the marriages took place at the life of Prophet Mohammed (saas), you can be convinced. They were all made with the consent of the ladies~we accept them as mothers of all muslims. They were for protection of ladies or political purposes, which were granted to the honorable woman of that time. It built bridges of love between the comunities, eased the way of surrounding people getting in touch with the devine message.
You may not even compare the prisoners of war what had been made to the girls, babies and woman throughout history or today with those during era of Prophet Mohammed.
Study well and witness the mercy granted even to the dog with puppies which stand milking them on the path of army. Prophet Mohammed (saas) ordered the army to change the track in order not to disturb the mother dog. Can you guess this man could be any cruel to any lady?
MISPERCEPTION : Prophet (saas) marriage with uncle’s daughter of six.
The claims are baseless and has no facts in it. The mother of muslims Aishah (rad) was 17 when got engaged and older than 18 when got married. She is one of the main source of hadiths (words ) from prophet. She became a teacher during revelations. She was a leader in all respects, even commanded a battle after death of prophet.
Even today the age of woman in Egypt is counted as the years passed after first menstruation. The false claims may be caused by that. There are strong written evidences about age of Aishah, this historical fact.
MISPERCEPTION : Mistake of one muslim may not be generalised.
I am not from Iran. Any muslim nation is honorable have many virtues, however have some problems too. Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini is neither representing Islam nor a leader to be chosen by cleric of any sect of Islam. He was one of the mollahs claiming had super powers, non mistakable in remarks. He might have written books which I am not aware of. Everybody has freedom what to say, but does not necessarily represents Islam. Always remember that Islam is a complete way of life from the Creator, and that Muslims are people who claim to follow that way of life. A Muslim may claim to follow Islam, but be wrong. The petty governments of many `Muslim countries' today do not apply many principles of Islam and in fact commit many crimes against the people. By the same token, many `Non Muslim countries' follow the paths of islamic doctrines unknowingly, and solve relevant problems.
MISPERCEPTION : woman beating
4:34 Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly)/send them away; but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).
Although many translations tend to describe the word beat them it may also translated with the other meanings of the same word ~ /beat them / get them out of house/ send them away from where they stay. The traditional women oppression societies had taken the advantageous first meaning of the word.
On the other hand, even if we take the word as “beat them” beating described as the last resort coming after admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly).
It may be even advocated beating to be better than divorcing the vulnerable lady with children out to field. However the divorce probability always kept at reserve by woman and man in 3 phases, without any difficulty.
MISPERCEPTION :Punishment who commits crime against Allah or Mohamed.
5:32-34 On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person- unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land- it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our Messengers with Clear Signs, yet, even after that, many of then continued to commit excesses in the land.
The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;
Except for those who repent before they fall into your power: in that case, know that Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
You have better read the verse with before and after it. Did you see any cruelty in this or the opposite. You are blinded to the extent even to omit the fact that Old testament has the same verses, rules crimes committed against humanity.
MISPERCEPTION: Those who dont beleive in Islam will burn in hell forever.
2.62: Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.
Is there anything said what you claim above? There are at least 50 verses saying :~ whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord.
22:50- Those who believe and work Righteousness, for them is forgiveness and a sustenance most generous.
85: 11- For those who believe and do righteous deeds, will be Gardens beneath which Rivers flow: that is the great Salvation, (the fulfillment of all desires),
98: 7- Those who have Faith and do righteous deeds, they are the best of creatures.
56: 10-14 And those Foremost (in Faith) will be foremost (in the Hereafter). These will be those Nearest to Allah: In Gardens of Bliss: A number of people from those of old, And a few from those of later times.
It is quite misleading claiming the opposit.
MISPERCEPTION: Those who reject Islam will be forced to drink boiling fetid water, and they will still not die after going through this unthinkable torture.
14:13-18 And the Unbelievers said to their messengers: "Be sure we shall drive you out of our land, or ye shall return to our religion." But their Lord inspired (this Message) to them: "Verily We shall cause the wrongdoers to perish!
"And verily We shall cause you to abide in the land, and succeed them. This for such as fear the Time when they shall stand before My tribunal- such as fear the Punishment denounced."
But they sought victory and decision (there and then), and frustration was the lot of every powerful obstinate transgressor.
In front of such a one is Hell, and he is given, for drink, boiling fetid water.
In gulps will he sip it, but never will he be near swallowing it down his throat: death will come to him from every quarter, yet will he not die: and in front of him will be a chastisement unrelenting.
They are not simply those who rejects İslam but actively treathening that they shall drive believers out of their land, or force them to return to non-believers religion.
(This tragedy happened in Spain inqusition, your jew anchestors survived either after accepting Catolic demands or flee to muslim countries. They are still living among us equally proud with name of Safarad or (from rest of Europe) Eskinasi jews) For details read the following; http://www.crisismagazine.com/octo-ber2003/madden.htm
MISCONCEPTIO-N- : Those who deny 'Allah' will be punished by pouring boiling water on their heads, and forcing them to wear clothes made from fire. This will cause their bodies to be scalded and burnt both from inside and outside. Their skin and whatever there is in their abdomens, will be melted. Furthermore, they will be punished with chains and whips made from Iron.And If they try to run from all these torturous suffering, they shall be forced to turn back into it.
22 :19-25 These two antagonists dispute with each other about their Lord: but those who deny (their Lord), for them will be cut out a garment of Fire: over their heads will be poured out boiling water.
With it will be scalded what is within their bodies, as well as (their) skins.
In addition there will be maces of iron (to punish) them.
Every time they wish to get away therefrom from anguish, they will be forced back therein, and (It will be said), taste ye the Penalty of burning!
Allah will admit those Who believe and work righteous deeds, to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow: they shall be Adorned therein with bracelets of gold and pearls; and their garments there will be of silk.
For they have been guided (In this life) to the purest of speeches; they have been guided to the path of Him Who is worthy of (all) praise.
As to who have rejected (Allah), and would keep back (men) from the way of Allah, and From the Sacred Mosque, which We have made (open) to (all) men Equal is the dweller there and the visitor from the country and any whose purpose therein Is profanity or wrong doing them will we cause to taste Of a most grievous penalty.
You can understand from above clearly and you try to hide again the truth, delude the people. The punishment is not for who have rejected (Allah), It is again not for the passive Rejecters but for those actively fight against İslam try to keep back (men) from the way of Allah, and From the Sacred Mosque. Simple Rejecters are kept at their choise, as one can not cover against for more than thousand years of practice in history.
2: 256- Let there be no compulsion in religion.
60: 8-9 Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.
Allah only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong.
MISPERCEPTION; rejecters punishment is extreme!
76 :2-5 Verily We created man from a drop of mingled sperm, in order to try him: so We gave him (the gifts). Of Hearing and Sight. We showed him the Way: whether he be grateful or ungrateful (rests on his will). For the Rejecters We have prepared chains, Yokes, and a Blazing Fire. As to the Righteous, they shall drink of a Cup (of Wine) mixed with Kafur,
It is fairly described by our Creator who has the right to do what He wishes to do with us. It is commensurate what He gives and asked in return.
MISCONCEPTION extra marital sex punished with stoning.
Although there were several cases of the stoning punishment actually it was inherited from jewish tradition, lived in Arabia, not ordered with any verses in Quran. The punishment is described for those who commit adultery as follows.
24 : 2-3 The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication, flog each of them with a hundred stripes: let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
Let no man guilty of adultery or fornication marry any but a woman similarly guilty, or an Unbeliever: nor let any but such a man or an Unbeliever marry such a woman: to the Believers such a thing is forbidden.
If any adulterious person would have been faced capital punishment how had it be possible ordered not to marry them? There would have been no adultry acting woman or man living left around. It is very clear. On the contrary to claim someone with adultry is heavily punished so that human rights and private life have been secured. The conditions of proof of adultery is hardened, by bringing 4 witness, almost impossible, to prove but for sure if it is once proven.
24.:4 And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors;- Unless they repent thereafter and mend (their conduct); for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
MISPERCEPTION : people will be flogged for consuming alchohol, drugs, slandering.
Slandering is not mentioned for punishment, however it is required severe reprimand if occured, except adultry slandering punishment to which is stated above. Alcohol (drugs) consumption hold back to be punished neither recommended, nor ordered anywhere in Qoran. It is a big deception. Even some of the prizes includes wine in heaven. Though it will be different than worldly, not cause any dizziness or paralyze will-power.
76:5 As to the Righteous, they shall drink of a Cup (of Wine) mixed with Kafur,- A Fountain where the Devotees of Allah do drink, making it flow in unstinted abundance.
47:15 A similitude of the Garden which those who keep their duty (to Allah) are promised: Therein are rivers of water unpolluted, and rivers of milk whereof the flavour changeth not, and rivers of wine delicious to the drinkers, and rivers of clear-run honey; therein for them is every kind of fruit, with pardon from their Lord. (Are those who enjoy all this) like those who are immortal in the Fire and are given boiling water to drink so that it teareth their bowels?
37:43-47 In Gardens of Felicity, Facing each other on Thrones (of dignity Round will be passed to them a Cup from a clear flowing fountain Crystal white, of a taste delicious to those who drink (thereof), Free from headiness; nor will they suffer intoxication therefrom.
76:17-22 And they will be given to drink there of a Cup (of Wine) mixed with Zanjabil A fountain there, called Salsabil.
And round about them will (serve) youths of perpetual (freshness): If thou seest them, thou wouldst think them scattered Pearls. And when thou lookest, it is there thou wilt see a Bliss and a Realm Magnificent. Upon them will be green Garments of fine silk and heavy brocade, and they will be adorned with bracelets of silver; and their Lord will give to them to drink of a Wine Pure and Holy. Verily this is a Reward for you, and your Endeavour is accepted and recognized.
78 :31-34 Verily for the Righteous there will be a fulfillment of (the Heart's) desires; Gardens enclosed, and Grapevines Companions of Equal Age; And a Cup full (to the Brim).
83 : 22-28 Truly the Righteous will be in Bliss: On Thrones (of Dignity) will they command a sight (of all things): Thou wilt recognize in their Faces the beaming brightness of Bliss. Their thirst will be slaked with Pure Wine sealed: The seal thereof will be musk: and for this let those aspire, who have aspirations: With it will be (given) a mixture of Tasnim:A spring, from (the waters) whereof drink those Nearest to Allah.
Some alcohol related verses are written below. They let people decide freely on discontinue drinking alcohol at their own will. Discourages believers from praying (biggest punishment for loved ones) if they are drunk. Please observe the mention of drunkenness by the same sentence, calling upon dirtiness. Please judge on your conscience if it is fair or not.
5 : 91- Satan's plan is (but) to excite enmity and hatred between you, with intoxicants and gambling, and hinder you from the remembrance of Allah, and from prayer: will ye not then abstain?
16 : 67- And from the fruit of the date palm and the vine, ye get out wholesome drink and food: behold, in this also is a sign for those who are wise.
4 : 43- O you who believe! do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated until you know (well) what you say, nor when you are under an obligation to perform a bath-- unless (you are) travelling on the road-- until you have washed yourselves; and if you are sick, or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth, then wipe your faces and your hands; surely Allah is Pardoning, Forgiving.
MISPERCEPTION : Any religion except Islam will not be accepted.
3:85 If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).
Yes true but with a huge difference when you accept the religions throughout history from Prophet Adam till Mohammed has been single religion which is called Islam.
3:19 Surely the (true) religion with Allah is Islam, and those to whom the Book had been given did not show opposition but after knowledge had come to them, out of envy among themselves; and whoever disbelieves in the communications of Allah then surely Allah is quick in reckoning.
3:65,67-68 O followers of the Book! why do you dispute about Ibrahim, when the Taurat and the Injeel were not revealed till after him; do you not then understand? Ibrahim was not a Jew nor a Christian but he was (an) upright (man), a Muslim, and he was not one of the polytheists.
Most surely the nearest of people to Ibrahim are those who followed him and this Prophet and those who believe and Allah is the guardian of the believers.
22 :78- And strive in His cause as ye ought to strive, (with sincerity and under discipline). He has chosen you, and has imposed no difficulties on you in religion; it is the cult of your father Abraham. It is He Who has named you Muslims, both before and in this (Revelation); that the Messenger may be a witness for you, and ye be witnesses for mankind! So establish regular Prayer, give regular Charity, and hold fast to Allah! He is your Protector- the best to protect and the best to help!
MISCONCEPTION : Hadith books Sahih Bukhari, Gazali etc.. are the unmistaken sources of religion.
The valid hadith (word) is only used for the ones which refers the words of Allah as mentioned in Qoran. No other hadith book has been allowed or ordered to obey by Allah except His hadith (word). Prophet himself has ordered to burn all other words of him in his life; correctly predicting the pitfall of subtitude or mixing with Allah hadith~word of Qoran. All the books attributed to words (hadith) of Prophet Mohammed has been written after 200-300 years later. Therefore the hadith (words) of Prophet most likely deteriorated over time when recorded systematically. Or intentionally made up by ill-will authors deceiving the muslim writers who were thinking they did a good thing to write them down. Not to mention, there were even some bad caractered people who manipulated the words ~hadiths according to their trade purposes.
Although some of the words~hadiths are true that Mohammed has said them, they have to be approached with scepticism, just like Bible.
Ironically some muslim clerics had produced hadiths~words from the stories of Christians, & Judaism to build bridges between religions or from Greeks mythology, to be seem sophisticated.
THE CORRECT WAY TO ACCUSE OR EMBRACE AND ENHANCE ISLAM SHOULD BE THROUGH ONLY THE SOURCE OF QORAN.
MISCONCEPTION: Numerical contradictions.
7:54 Surely your Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six periods of time, and He is firm in power
41: 9-12 Say (O Muhammad, unto the idolaters): Disbelieve ye verily in Him Who created the earth in two Days, and ascribe ye unto Him rivals? He (and none else) is the Lord of the Worlds. He placed therein firm hills rising above it, and blessed it and measured therein its sustenance in four Days, alike for (all) who ask; Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke, and said unto it and unto the earth: Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said: We come, obedient. Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days and inspired in each heaven its mandate; and We decked the nether heaven with lamps, and rendered it inviolable. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Knower.
The days has been described to point out the phases of creation. The days counted by God may vary from 1.000, 50.000 that we count. It is clearly stated in verses of Qoran by Him. There is no mistake or difficulty understanding of the concept of ‘Time’ which may be ‘relatively different’ from case to case. It is a miracle showing us the relativity rather than a mistake.
Can you believe even a common writer would make a mistake within the same pragraph following sentences from one another? Todays science accepts the phases of creation in 6 various steps, discovering the creation has started from water, exactly described in Qoran.
“Dukhan” is the word used in Arabic for smoke, vapor and gaseous matter. It appears that the universe was a gaseous mass before it reached the state - by the will of God - from which the universe and the earth came to be.
We know that our world, the sun and the stars did not come about immediately after the primeval explosion. For the universe was in a gaseous state before the formation of the stars. This gaseous state was initially made of hydrogen and helium. Condensation and compression shaped the planets, the earth, the sun and the stars that were but products of the gaseous state.
21:30 Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them, and We made every living thing of water? Will they not then believe?
24:45 Allah hath created every animal of water. Of them is (a kind) that goeth upon its belly and (a kind) that goeth upon two legs and (a kind) that goeth upon four. Allah createth what He will. Lo! Allah is Able to do all things.
MISPERCEPTION: The inheritence law contradicts in Quran 4: 11 - 12, and 4: 176. Totals become more than 1 which are: 1.125 and 1.25.
4:11 Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females:
4 : 176- …. if there are brothers and sisters, (they share), the male having twice the share of the female.
There is this simple rule mentioned above. The left fortune is not added up, but descended from the whole to the single. The whole devided in a way that males gets 2 times what females get. There is no misconcept here, unless the person is ill-faithed, or biased towards Qoran. It is miraculous such a complex matter in detail has been described in a few sentences clearly.
MISPERCEPTION :Allah at one time says that Earth was created first and another time He says that the Heaven was created first.
2:29 He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth, and He directed Himself to the heaven, so He made them complete seven heavens, and He knows all things.
The seven heavens are yet to be discovered or would be witnessed afterlife. We still dont know what is the boundries of sky, layers, black holes… whereas according to some scientists, the athmospheric layers are thought to be seven dependin on grouping. Also the layers of crust of earth are explored to be seven.
From another standpoint, the aim in these verses are not cronically describe creation, but to remind human what had took place.
There is a miracle in the creation description of no one knew at that time: Round shape of earth.
79: 27-30 Are you the harder to create or the heaven? He made it. He raised high its height, then put it into a right good state. And He made dark its night and brought out its light. And the earth, He expanded it, made it similar to egg of a camel bird after that.
In Arabic "dahhaha" word singular form "dahya" means “egg”. Old translators of Qoran who didnt know earth could possibly be round shaped; has thought, ostrich ~Struthio camelus (camel-like bird) egg means representation only for lyric purposes. They described the verse in a way that “ He expanded the earth, flat as an egg clutch (egg bed)”
MISPERCEPTION : Koran teaches us that the Sun sets in a muddy spring.
On the contrary there is no meaninglessness or supernatural event in it. Read carefuly what they bring up the arguments from:
8: 86,89,90 Until when he reached the place where the sun set, he found it going down into a black sea, and found by it a people. We said: O Zulqarnain! either give them a chastisement or do them a benefit. …. Then he followed (another) course. Until when he reached the land of the rising of the sun, he found it rising on a people to whom We had given no shelter from It;
36:38 And the sun runs on to a term appointed for it; that is the ordinance of the Mighty, the Knowing.And (as for) the moon, We have ordained for it stages till it becomes again as an old dry palm branch. It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit.
There is another miracle in this explanation. The words talking about orbits, round figure in space at year of 620.
Another interesting point is ; In Arabic all “küllün fi felekin (They float each in an orbit)” made up of letters (K, L, F, Y, F, L, K) sounds the same as it is read from the back to front, as if pointing to the spherical elipsoid orbits of the sky matters. It repeats at verse below;
21:33 And He it is Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. They float, each in an orbit.
MISPERCEPTION : Is Sky/Heaven A ROOF or Canopy Over the Earth? Are mountains there to prevent Earth from shaking?
21:31-32 “And We have set on the earth mountains standing firm lest it should shake with them.” and We have made therein broad highways (between mountains) for them to pass through: that they may receive Guidance.And We have made the heaven a guarded canopy/roof and (yet) they turn aside from its signs.
31:10 He created the heavens without any pillars that ye can see; He set on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with you; and He scattered through it beasts of all kinds. We send down rain from the sky, and produce on the earth every kind of noble creature, in pairs.
2:22 Who hath appointed the earth a resting-place for you, and the sky a canopy; and causeth water to pour down from the sky, thereby producing fruits as food for you. And do not set up rivals to Allah when ye know (better).
If you have considered sky as the outer space complete with galaxies, billions of stars with drawing, and Centrifugal forces working in great harmony, they were protected from hitting each other. Outer space is used to distinguish it from airspace (and terrestrial locations). Contrary to popular understanding, outer space is not completely empty (i.e. a perfect vacuum) but contains a low density of particles, predominantly hydrogen gas, as well as electromagnetic radiation.
If you consider sky as the earth athmosphere, modern science has proven that it protects us from hitting dangerous sky bodies, meteors, poisinous gasses and dangerous sunbeams, low temperatures of space, as if wrapping earth with transparent cushion/comforter.
Modern science has proven that The mountains has been balancing the earth. It is called “isostasi ” Webster’s Third New Twentieth Century Dictionary describes it as follows: “Isostasy is the general equilibrium in the earth’s crust, maintained by a yielding flow of rock material beneath the surface under gravitate stress, and by the approximate equality in mass of each unit column of the earth from the surface to a depth of about 100 km.” They are weighing the cover of the immediate earth cluster.
They go well into the liquid layer oposit way in dept as it grows up in the sky. They have numerous functions. Also, beside maountains, consider the following verse.Think about a barier between the two seas~which has been explored recently.
27:61 Is not He (best) Who made the earth a fixed abode, and placed rivers in the folds thereof, and placed firm hills therein, and hath set a barrier between the two seas? Is there any Allah beside Allah? Nay, but most of them know not!
MISPERCEPTION : Is Man Created From Clotted Blood? scientifically completely wrong/false, but was directly copied from the ancient Greek doctor Galen’s hypothesis.
23:13,14 Then We placed him as a drop in a firmly established lodging… Then We made the seed a clot,/ Then We developed the drop into a hanging... then We made the clot a lump of flesh/ then developed the hanging into a chewed lump of flesh., then We made (in) the lump of flesh bones, then We clothed the bones with flesh,/ then created the chewed lump of flesh (mudga) into bones, then covered the bones with flesh (lahm)... then We caused it to grow into another creation, so blessed be Allah, the best of the creators.
75:38 Then did he become a leech-like clot; then did (Allah) make and fashion (him) in due proportion.
96:2 He created man from a clot.
“Alaq” is the Arabic word referring to something that is hanging on a place. Embryology did not exist as a science at the time of the Prophet. Neither was there special terminology yet. The Quran described the stages using the words current at the time. According to this description, the zygote then hangs on the wall of the uterus. The Quran brings clarification to something unknown at the time. To render the word “alaq” with the signification ‘embryo’ may not exactly reflect its original meaning, and would moreover fail to convey the spirit of it. To translate it as “a clot of blood” deviates from the literal meaning of the word. This rendering has often been adopted, giving it the attribute of a secondary meaning of the word. The reason was the failure of exegetists to conceive the true meaning of the word.
Keith Moore, anatomy professor in the Toronto University of Canada, says that the information contained in the Quran about embryology cannot be accounted for by the data available in the 7th century.
The Quran continues displaying its miracles in its description of “alaq” succeeded by the “mudga” (chewed lump of flesh) stage. As a matter of fact, the embryo in the uterus has the appearance of a chewed lump of flesh, a tiny piece of flesh. Sura 22-The Pilgrimage, verse 5, speaks “of chewed lump of flesh, partly formed and partly unformed,” which is a good description of the aspect of the fetus. The aspect presented to our sight is of an indented figure whose head, feet and internal organs have begun to develop (partly formed, partly unformed).
Prof. Keith L. Moore says that he had a model made in plastic in the shape of an embryo and bit on it, leaving the marks of his teeth; this seemed to be an exact reproduction of an embryo, and explained the indentation referred to in the Quran.
The embryo is a boneless lump. Its cartilage tissue is transformed into bones in due time, as stated in the Quran, followed by their being clothed in muscular flesh. The Arabic word “lahm” means the muscular flesh. This process was unknown 1400 years ago. It was believed that the bones and muscles developed simultaneously. Advanced microscopes and micro cameras introduced into the uterus corroborated once again the truth expressed in the Quran.
MISPERCEPTION : Is Religion Compulsive Or Is It Not?
2 : 256- Let there be no compulsion in religion.
9:4-5Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you, so fulfill their agreement to the end of their term; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty). So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. And if one of the idolaters seek protection from you, grant him protection till he hears the word of Allah, then make him attain his place of safety; this is because they are a people who do not know. How can there be an agreement for the idolaters with Allah and with His Messenger; except those with whom you made an agreement at the Sacred Mosque? So as long as they are true to you, be true to them; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).
9:29Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
47:4 So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates.
2:190-192 And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits. And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers. But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
The conditions abovementioned are in the circumstances of war. The rules of war are different than peacetime.
You can still feel the ordered mercy in case if they surrender or cease fire. The wars, take place today are much more cruel than described rules in Qoran.
8:65,66 O Prophet! urge the believers to war; if there are twenty patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a hundred of you they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they are a people who do not understand. For the present Allah has made light your burden, and He knows that there is weakness in you; so if there are a hundred patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a thousand they shall overcome two thousand by Allah's permission, and Allah is with the patient.
During the war environment people must be encouraged, given morale, made ready to fight. The verses had proven hundreds of times true in the war. Endulus (Spain, Portugal, South France) has been captured by muslims shortly after Prophets death in 7th Century by less than 20.000 people who fought against 110.000, and defeated them. It was kept untill 14th century, with minimal army, thanks to support of local people who in great numbers accepted İslam..
MISPERCEPTION : Punishment of an apostate in Islam is death penalty.
It is a big delusion, very hard to prove this untruthful claim.
2:192 But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
You can easily understand upon reviewing Qoran that, whenever possible peple must give up revenge and forgive. Below verses are proofs to that;
2:109 Many of the followers of the Book wish that they could turn you back into unbelievers after your faith, out of envy from themselves, (even) after the truth has become manifest to them; but pardon and forgive, so that Allah should bring about His command; surely Allah has power over all things.
3:134 Those who spend (benevolently/ freely), in ease as well as in straitness, and those who restrain (their) anger and pardon men; and Allah loves the doers of good (to others).
42:43 And whoever is patient and forgiving, these most surely are actions due to courage.
64:14 O you who believe! surely from among your wives and your children there is an enemy to you; therefore beware of them; and if you pardon and forbear and forgive, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
MISPERCEPTION : No matter which translated Quran we read, the Quranic materials remain the same to us, we dont see it as muslims way.
44:58 So have We made it easy in your tongue that they may be mindful.
3:7 He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - They are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.
The Qoran is clearly understood however, it does not reveal itself to everyone. There is a mystery of test always going on, which is the reason of creation.
God does not permit to understand Quran or Islam fully unless He wills. People will not understand, unless (it be) that Allah willeth them see the facts.
6:111 And even if We had sent down to them the angels and the dead had spoken to them and We had brought together all things before them, they would not believe unless Allah pleases, but most of them are ignorant.
81:29 And ye will not, unless (it be) that Allah willeth, the Lord of Creation.
I offer the following link for brief portraits of fellow muslims.
http://www.americanmuslims.info/archive.asp
I invite discussion of scientists and theologians to view the following site and bring criticism/ amendments/ comments.
http://www.qu-ranmiracles.com/
Thanks- to whom causes to make this defensive article come into reality. Further reading may be pursued at the thousands of Quran websites one of which;
http://www.theholyquran.org/
Last word (dua):
Our Lord! Perfect our Light for us, and grant us Forgiveness: for You have power over all things.
Name:Perceptions •
Date: 03/20/07 2:06
A: Hi Roy!
I appreciate your concern, but I don't think its the right place for it, either.
Name:Pat •
Date: 03/20/07 11:52
A: Roy wrote:
Study well and witness the mercy granted even to the dog with puppies which stand milking them on the path of army. Prophet Mohammed (saas) ordered the army to change the track in order not to disturb the mother dog. Can you guess this man could be any cruel to any lady?
Pat wrote:
Roy, O wise one, if Mohamed and Allah are so merciful upon a female dog would you tell me why your men are running around in shirts with short sleeves, tea shirts and in comfortable pants, while your women are running around with their black burke converted head to toes in a 200 degree Celsius weather.
Now is that nice and fair? Or do you enjoy seeing your women suffer under the heat. Why can Mulsims marry so many wives and not women have so many husbands?
Teachings of Islam about others that are not Mulsims in the Koran
"The only reward of those who make war against Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be murdered or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom" Quran 5:33 [AL-MAEDA (THE TABLE)]
[Scriptural Evidence] Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64: Sahih Bukhari [the most venerated and authentic Islamic source]
Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).
Roy please check the link below concerning Wives of the Prophet
The tales of Muhammad’s wives and sex slaves are the most fascinating and also the most embarrassing part of the life of the Prophet. These are stories of lust, intrigues, mind games, jealousy and betrayal.
Juwayriah Ali Sina 14-Feb -2003
Propaganda from an apologist: a straight reply By Abul Kasem Jan, 1, 2003
Adoption in Islam and Muhammad's Marriage to Zainab Bint Jahsh. S Kamran Mirza
Mariyah The Coptic Sex Slave of the Prophet Ali Sina
Safiyah: the Jewish wife of Muhammad
Ayesha: the 9-year old Wife of the Prophet. Ali Sina
Controversies About the Age of Ayesha. Answering the Muslims apologetics denying the young age of Ayesha when the Prophet married her. Understanding-islam.com
Moral Evaluations of the Marriage of the Prophet with Ayesha Ali Sina
http://www.faithfreedom-.org/Articles.htm#wives
Ro-y- why does Islam clashes severely with the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) in the following ways:
Violation of Article 1 and 2: Islam gives lesser rights to the females as compared to males.
Violation of Article 5 (& 18) : Islam gives cruel, inhuman and degrading punishment to those who don’t believe in Islam.
Violation of Article 18 : Islam does not give humans beings, the right to choose their religion.
There are other violations of human rights, which are being done by various Muslim countries, such as:
Violation of Article 19 : In Pakistan and Afghanistan, Freedom of speech is prohibited and punishable by law.
Violation of Article 23 (1) & 26 (1): In Afghanistan, female employment and education is restricted and in some cases, banned.
But in Afghanistan, a Muslim country, girls are not allowed education (1 2 3) . Girl’s schools are banned and those caught running these schools, can be punished by law
Why is stoning to death a cruel insane Islamic punishment given to people who are married but still voluntarily have sex outside marriage.
Roy why did tthis punishment was ordered by the "merciful" Prophet, who of course was the messenger of the "merciful" Allah. According to you they seem to like dogs better than humans.
Many hadith, including Sahih Bukhari give proof that Stoning was ordered and practiced by Muhammed, for example:
Volume 2, Book 23, Number 413:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar :
The Jew brought to the Prophet a man and a woman from amongst them who have committed (adultery) illegal sexual intercourse. He ordered both of them to be stoned (to death), near the place of offering the funeral prayers beside the mosque."
Roy unless you do not know what happens in Stoning here is a video below. What a mercifull and nice way to kill people lead by Allah and Mohamed.
In stoning to death, the victims's hands are tied behind their backs and their bodies are put in a cloth sack. Then, this human "package" is buried in a hole, with only the victims heads showing above the ground. If its a woman, she is buried upto her shoulders. This is to give her an seemingly equal (but nonetheless impossible) chance to escape recognizing her lesser physical strength.
After the hapless individual has been secured in the hole, people start chanting "Allah hu Akbar" (meaning, God is great), and throw palm sized stones at the head of the victim from a certain distance (a circle is drawn).
The stones are thrown until the person dies or until he/she escapes out of the hole and crosses the circle. Escaping is impossible, given that the individual's hands are tied behind their backs and they are buried in a hole upto their necks or shoulders (in the case of males and females respectively).
Naturally, the procedure is extremely barbaric and bloody.
Gee Roy did Mohamed stoned bad dogs like women and men.
Warning! This is an extremely sick and disgusting punishment, and thus watching this video can make you weak or possibly give you nausea and shock for several days. Please do not watch if you are weak-hearted.
And- you have the nerve to call Allah and Mohamed merciful.
Give me a break.
They are just as bad as the Catholics in the past and what Yahweh did in the bible.
Want to find out more truth about Islam check the following site
http://www.faithfr-eedom.org/index.htm
Her-e- is a link from ex Mulsims and why they left Islam
http://www.apostatesofislam.com/index.htm
Name:Pat •
Date: 03/20/07 12:01
A: Aisha the Child Wife of Muhammad
By Ali Sina
The thought of an old man becoming aroused by a child is one of the most disturbing thoughts that makes us cringe as it reminds us of pedophilia and the most despicable people. It is difficult to accept that the Holy Prophet married Aisha when she was 6-years-old and consummated his marriage with her when she was 9. He was then, 54 years old.
Prophet Mohammed (saas) ordered the army to change the track in order not to disturb the mother dog. Can you guess this man could be any cruel to any lady
Pat wrote:
Here are some pictures because of Mohamed codoning stoning. I could just imagine how many thousands and thousands of women men have been tortured beaten and mainned because of Allha and Mohamed sick deluded minds.
Enjoy roy this is Islam and the Koran in pictures.
Stoning in Islam
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Gallery/6.htm
Name:Pat •
Date: 03/20/07 13:22
A: Roy;
Check out the picture link bellow :The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger
5:33,- The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter; [Anyone who disbeliefs in Islam and speaks against it is considered to be waging war against Allah and his messenger]
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Gallery/5.htm
Name:Pat •
Date: 03/20/07 13:30
A: Roy:
Check out the picture below with the link
Mullha kissing young boys.
Homosexuality in Islam is punishable by death but pederasty is permissible. Men can have sex with boys but they cannot have sex with men. How strange roy.
And this even in your Koran in Surah 76:19 Allah promises fresh youths to Muslim men.
Wake up my friend.
Pedophilia in Islam
Homosexuality in Islam is punishable by death but pederasty is permissible.
Quran 52:24 Round about them will serve, (devoted) to them, young male servants (handsome) as Pearls well-guarded.
Also in Surah 76:19 Allah promises fresh youths to Muslim men.
And round about them shall go youths never altering in age; when you see them you will think them to be scattered pearls.
I apologize if the above picture is disturbing. It is indeed disturbing. But it would be more disturbing if no one spoke about it.
When Catholic priests molest children there is a law, there is a justice that holds them accountable. The Mullahs ARE the law, justice and the government. So they can do their shameful acts in public and who is going to stop them?
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Gallery/16.htm
Name:BMillikan •
Date: 03/20/07 14:16
A: Ladies and Gentlemen (and others). The WORLD ACCORDING TO PAT. Geez. Write a book, Pat. You've got enough material.
Name:sage •
Date: 03/20/07 18:08
A: You two need a cold shower and to give your head a shake!
This is a disgusting example of typical human behaviour, when you can't agree to disagree, just start tearing at each other until one or the other hangs their head in shame, or when either are too proud (or stupid) to call a truce, then fight to the death.
This started as a religous discussion and everyone here (I think) enjoys being reading other people's opinions and being challenged, but no one likes to watch cock fights. You are fully attacking cultural and religious differences now, both of you should be ashamed of yourselves, but you seem too bull headed to pay attention. So for now, I will be ashamed of you.
My young daughters understand the rules of communication better than you two. A terrible disappointment as I really enjoyed your points, your DIFFERENT perspectives. And I think at some point one or both of you were standing by the belief that everyone has a right to their own opinions and everyone has the right to be respected for those differences.
If you cannot let the meanness and rudeness go, please redirect this to a private communication. No one here wants to watch this.
Name:Pat •
Date: 03/20/07 19:12
A: Sage wrote:
A terrible disappointment as I really enjoyed your points, your DIFFERENT perspectives. And I think at some point one or both of you were standing by the belief that everyone has a right to their own opinions and everyone has the right to be respected for those differences.
Pat wrote:
I respect other opignions my friend. Roy even wanted me to defy him in a way.
The problem with many is that they are too political correct.
Religions past and present are ruthless.
I just bring out facts.
And by the way you Jesus freaks He ain't coming on a cloudy fluffy cushion. He is coming for a kill.
Read your bible.
Sage there is nothing rude or mean in what I brought out just simple facts.
Be lucky you are not a woman and on the otherside of the big pond.
If you want a soap my friend check out channel 22 abc.
Name:Pat •
Date: 03/20/07 19:17
A: BMillikan wrote:
A: Ladies and Gentlemen (and others). The WORLD ACCORDING TO PAT. Geez. Write a book, Pat. You've got enough material.
Maybe I should. In the meantime check out the links and maybe you will learn something and understand what is going on. And perhaps you might be enlighten in understanding why the middle east is on fire.
Its a religious war friends and its not about oil.
Name:Pat •
Date: 03/20/07 19:48
A: sage wrote:
You two need a cold shower and to give your head a shake!
This is a disgusting example of typical human behavior, when you can't agree to disagree, just start tearing at each other until one or the other hangs their head in shame, or when either are too proud (or stupid) to call a truce, then fight to the death.
Pat wrote:
You are wrong my friend. Roy asked for a challenge an I am giving him one. I do not hate him I enjoy his challenge.
Also I am not saying that Christians are better or that the Bible is better than the Koran. They are both filled with stupidities and were created by men for control of the masses.
In the name of both books and their Gods millions of people have been tortured killed or maimed.
The problem is that the Catholics have stop murdering people for a while the Muslims are continuing it. Because also htey want to conquer the world.
People this is a relgious war between Christians and Mulsims like it or not.
And the Muslims don't even see the Vatican is behind them in having them trapped for the extinction of the Jews and the downfall of the United States.
Once this is done and that the new one world order is in place with the Vatican Catholic Church being the one world religion. The world will waken up.
Since the ecumenical stuff came into existing it’s a long time that if that was really applicable there would have been peace on earth. On the contrary it’s just a smoke screen.
Everything is pure hypocracy.
In the meantime the average Joe blow is getting suck screwed and he is to busily caught into entertainment tonight, football and movies.
Young men are dying in Iraq while women are treated as slaves and are brainwashed over there.
Folks the facts are that Jesus, Buddha, Mohamed, Moses and others are just a bunch of individuals humans men cloned back to life and are aliens that are living somewhere else in the universe watching our progress.
They have been part of our evolution and we were their bioengineering labaratory experiment.
In the meantime here on earth we either venerate them or use either one of them to kill conquer our fellow man.
So sage either say something intelligent or else put on Bugs Bunny.
Name:sage •
Date: 03/20/07 20:26
A: Pat... *sigh*
You just don't understand the rules of debate. Debate is an exchange of ideas that challenge the participants to open their minds and speak their opinions tactfully, without emotion. When emotions are added to the conversation, it becomes an arguement, and you prefer to argue. I haven't called you names, or accused you of idiotic comments. In fact I've said a few times already that I enjoyed your posts, you and I have mostly the same views on religion. Roy challenged you and invited you to disprove him, but religion is not about disproving or recruiting, at least not the belief system I think you have, and certainly not the path I follow. I thouroughly enjoy debates and discussions about religion, I love learning other people's perspectives, but I can't stand it when people abandon their reason and start full on insulting other people based on their religious beliefs or their cultural differences. That is distasteful and offensive.
IF you have read anything I have posted, you would know that I've spent alot of time learning about many other religions and cultures. I'm not an idiot, I'm a knowledge junkie, but as I've stated a few times already, I do not indulge in discussions that sling insults at each other.
"People this is a relgious war between Christians and Mulsims like it or not."
THIS is a discussion. Whatever wars you want to be a part of is up to you. *shudders*
We can be different, have different views, come from different histories, eat different food and wear different clothing. I (not you, tho I'm not saying you don't) appreciate the differences in people. History is full of blood and lies, from every corner of the globe. Christians and Muslims are not the only groups to have caused pain.
"Religion is the opiate of the masses" and I chose not be a part of it. I'm not religious tho I love learning about religions. I'm knowledgable, but I'm no expert. I'm interested, but not obsessed.
Balance is the key to my life. I most def. do not want to fight with you, I just want to keep the discussion, a discussion.
Do you mind if I ask, because you are obviously knowledgeable about religion, what path do you follow?
BTW, soap operas on are channel 21 here. And I really do love bugs bunny, but Sheera, Princess of Power is my favorite character!
Name:BMillikan •
Date: 03/21/07 1:16
A: Pat wrote:
"Also I am not saying that Christians are better or that the Bible is better than the Koran. They are both filled with stupidities and were created by men for control of the masses.
[You are talking about Judaism too. The Old Testament contains core beliefs of Orthodox Jews around the world. And how did all those different authors of all the different texts in the Bible believe in the same control of the masses? This sounds more like opinion than fact.]
In the name of both books and their Gods millions of people have been tortured killed or maimed.
The problem is that the Catholics have stop murdering people for a while the Muslims are continuing it. Because also htey want to conquer the world.
People this is a relgious war between Christians and Mulsims like it or not."
[Really a war between Arabs and Jews has been going on much longer than Christians and Muslims. America is largely atheist and there are many atheist apologists in our government, so it's rather short-sighted for you to say the war in Iraq and Afghanistan is Christians against Muslims.]
"Folks the facts are that Jesus, Buddha, Mohamed, Moses and others are just a bunch of individuals humans men cloned back to life and are aliens that are living somewhere else in the universe watching our progress.
[What facts??!?!? What are you using to support these claims?!?!?]
They have been part of our evolution and we were their bioengineering labaratory experiment.
In the meantime here on earth we either venerate them or use either one of them to kill conquer our fellow man."
[Nevermind the fact that Jesus said "Blessed are the peacemakers." and told his disciples, if they were struck to "turn the other cheek". Forget about what the Catholic Church or the Christian Church in general have done in the past, the teachings of Jesus do not condone war.]
Name:Perceptions •
Date: 03/21/07 1:55
A: Friends,
why don't you start a NEW thread ...
The title of this thread was...JESUS DIED AND RISEN THREE DAYS LATER.....
Name:Pat •
Date: 03/21/07 12:48
A: BMillikan wrote:
Forget about what the Catholic Church or the Christian Church in general have done in the past, the teachings of Jesus do not condone war
Patrick wrote:
Oh yeah what's this then straight out of the bible. Please read biblical verses proving the contrary.
I Came Not To Send Peace
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household." (Matthew 10:34-37)
Comment
These words of Jesus confirm the unbelievable notion that Jesus did not come to establish peace, but rather to send the sword and to put man against his family. So much for family values.
(See also Luke 12: 51-53, Luke 12:49 and Luke 14:26.)
I Come To Send Fire
"I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?" (Luke 12:49)
"Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law." (Luke 12:51-53)
Comment
Jesus did not come to send peace, but rather fire and division among the family. So much for the idea of a pacifist Jesus and the modern concept of "family values."
(See also Luke 14:26)
God-- Man Of War
"The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name." (Exodus 15:3)
Comment
Note that many fundamentalists who consider every word of the Bible as fact must also concede that God, not only consists of a man, but also a man of war; a killer man of men.
With such a belief, how could a Christian people ever divorce war from their lives?
The Midrash Rabbah gives an explanation of The Man God: "His lower half was 'man', but his upper half was as God. [Only the lower half of his body, the seat of the sexual and secretory organs, belonged to the earthly within him, but his head and heart, given over entirely to holiness, were as divine.]"
God Creates Evil And Peace
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7)
Comment
Here it explicitly states that God creates evil as well as makes peace. Considering that since the invention of man-made religions there has always existed war, it appears that God likes war more than peace.
(see also Lam. 3:38, II Samuel 12:11 & I Kings 14:10 "I will bring evil upon...")
esus Will Kill Children
"Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works." (Revelation 2:22-23)
Comment
If anyone thinks Jesus represents only a peaceful loving soul, then think again. For an act of adultery, Jesus would kill innocent children for the adultery of others; hardly fair justice, love, or the concern for human beings.
Some apologists claim that "children" refers to the followers of a cult of Jezebel and not to children birthed from Jezebel. However, if this proved the case, the situation would appear even more horrific, for a cult of believers could number in the dozens, hundreds, thousands, or more. The deaths of these multitude of cult believers (which would include children within its membership) would only make the moralistic problem far more atrocious.
Wars Must Be
"And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows." (Mark 13:7-8)
Comment
Belief in these words can justify any war and atrocity against nations. Yet Jesus here tells us that we should not feel troubled by it as long as we have belief in Him.
When Jesus prophesies about the future, he gives the message that we have no control over our lives other than to choose or not choose a belief in the Lord. With such a message, it should not surprise anyone why the Religious Right does little to strive against war.
Make Weapons
"Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up: Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong." (Joel 3:9-10)
Comment
Peace loving Jews and Christians love to quote the biblical passage about beating swords into ploughshares and spears into pruninghooks, (Micah 4:3) but here we have just the opposite.
BMillikan wrote:
Folks the facts are that Jesus, Buddha, Mohamed, Moses and others are just a bunch of individuals humans men cloned back to life and are aliens that are living somewhere else in the universe watching our progress.
[What facts??!?!? What are you using to support these claims?!?!?]
Pat wrote:
From this biblical passage
More Than One God
"Now I know that the LORD is greater than all gods: for in the thing wherein they dealt proudly he was above them." (Exodus 18:11)
Comment
Here we have the Bible alluding to the existence of more than one god.
Note that it does not say "the Lord is the only god" but rather that he "is greater than all gods."
History records that the ancient people in the area of the Middle East, including the Hebrews, believed in many goddesses and gods. Yahweh served only as their god, a god among many others.
The truth is that Yaweh to even back to the Gods of the Sumerian period they were all abuch of aliens playing God.
Name:Pat •
Date: 03/21/07 13:32
A: Sage wrote:
Do you mind if I ask, because you are obviously knowledgeable about religion, what path do you follow?
Pat wrote:
None. You are very right about religion being the opium of the people.
Right now we feel comfy because nothing as reach us on this side of the Atlantic beside 911.
Well 911 is just a prelude manufactured by the globalists Vatican and friends to dismantle the USA. And eventually usher in the New World One Order.
Once the North American Union is quietly established the next step will be the implementation of the New One World Order controlling 4 global division. headed by the Vatican and its trillions of trillions in assets and the elite that contolls the global corporations.
Eventualy the Vatican will combine the elements of the other major religions and from that stew they will enforce this religion world wide and will reign for a while.
Soon we will enter the cashless society and be forcing in being microchiped which as presently started in 500 hospitals in the USA for full control of the masses.
In the mean time the globolist wants to depopulate the earth by 3 billion people. It will be very easy with biological viruses man made such as aids and to be spread out at a specific given time.
Weather one is a fanatical Evangelist or a fanatical Muslim it comes to the same. Both are being brainwashed and used by the upper echelon war games.
One bombs and air raid cities with the bible and the church pastor or priests blessings while others run wild Koran in Hand cutting throats hanging, wiping people, axinh heads en mass with the same objective.
Both don't know that they are being used and manipulated by the head pupetters.
People around the world got to stop falling into the trap into playing a game that they have no idea of what it is all about.
Name:Pat •
Date: 03/21/07 13:43
A: BMillikan wrote:
Folks the facts are that Jesus, Buddha, Mohamed, Moses and others are just a bunch of individuals humans men cloned back to life and are aliens that are living somewhere else in the universe watching our progress.
[What facts??!?!? What are you using to support these claims?!?!?]
Pat wrote:
From these biblical verse
God-- Man Of War .........therefore a human being male
"The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name." (Exodus 15:3)
Comment
Note that many fundamentalists who consider every word of the Bible as fact must also concede that God, not only consists of a man, but also a man of war; a killer man of men.
More Than One God
"Now I know that the LORD is greater than all gods: for in the thing wherein they dealt proudly he was above them." (Exodus 18:11)
Comment
Here we have the Bible alluding to the existence of more than one god.
Note that it does not say "the Lord is the only god" but rather that he "is greater than all gods."
History records that the ancient people in the area of the Middle East, including the Hebrews, believed in many goddesses and gods. Yahweh served only as their god, a god among many others.
The truth is that Yaweh just like the Sumerian Gods Enki and Enhil were humans/ aliens playing God with a lot of scientific knowlege and machinery.
Name:Pat •
Date: 03/21/07 14:00
A: BMillikan wrote:
[What facts??!?!? What are you using to support these claims?!?!?]
Pat wrote:
In the bible. You have the cloning process descibe very well inEzekiel XXXVII 3/7/8/10.
Could the answer lies in some sort of cloning which is described in the bible.
God cloned Moses back. Moses had been dead and buried for hundred years before Jesus birth.
Days prior to Jesus’ crucifixion, Jesus meets on the mountain Moses ( re cloned ) back from the dead and Elijah back from Heaven.
Please note that Elijah had never died on earth but had been taken into heaven by a heavenly chariot hundreds of years before.
God biggest cloning and it's descriptive process of some sort of scientific resurrections lies in the bible and can be found in Ezekiel XXXVII 3/7/8/10.
Here we are told that Ezekiel is watching God performed with at lot of scientific knowledge the recreations of flesh and life on the dead bones of an entire Israel army.
First Yahweh biblical God flew ( in Spirit in the air ) to a certain place Ezekiel.
037:001 ........... The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
037:002 …., there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
037:003 ….Son of man, can these bones live? ………R-30;……….-.-
037:005..... Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
037:006....... And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. ………………-230;…-;………..
037:007- ………- there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone. ............
037:008........ And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
037:009 ……………. and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
037:010 ……. breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
So here we have Ezekiel watching God performed with at lot of scientific knowledge the recreations of flesh and life on the dead bones of an entire Israel army.
We are just at the infancy of cloning and stem cells could you imagine how advance one could be with thousands years of scientific knowlege.
The big noise and boom serounding what was hapening was probably the scientific machinery or equipment to make this come through.
Did God do the same with Jesus? From Jesus dead body and DNA cells he recreated or cloned him back in a very scientific way?
Perhaps a cell of a body contains all the DNA and the memory mechanism of a dead person and one can be recreated cloned or resurected back to life.
Name:roy •
Date: 03/21/07 14:02
A: It has been my privilage to be read by all you online audience. I want to pay my special thanks to whomever contributed.
Sage,Perceptions, please be more understanding for us debate on any media, including this one to find out the facts. Thanks Sage for opening up this forum, however it says Alexandra on the top of the thread. As Sage observes, we are not insulting~yet to each other. This will help to ease some tensions of opposite perspectives.
Pat, I am really not offended nor insulted by your claims to my faith or personality. I wont write if I got upset, or not valued your contribution.
In fact, I was angry with you at the beginning but started to see the picture why God let us be on different camps, I am really suspicious that you are serving in favor of Islam. He wants the truth come into presence. Actually I see you as a vehicle to point out the weak parts of my religion, giving me the chance to 'internal audit' my belief, as well as search for the reality ; giving your claims benefit of the daubt.
Please let me study on your new posts, I ll be back shortly. Regards
Name:BMillikan •
Date: 03/21/07 16:28
A: Pat:
I too will study and look at your answers. It's obvious you've done your homework. So, I will do mine. Contact me, if you wish, at [email protected]. It's a temp email address, but I will use it for debate as this post is getting rather long.
Name:Pat •
Date: 03/21/07 23:07
A: Roy wrote:
It has been my privilege to be read by all you online audience. I want
Pat, I am really not offended nor insulted by your claims to my faith or personality. I wont write if I got upset, or not valued your contribution.
In fact, I was angry with you at the beginning but started to see the picture why God let us be on different camps.
Please let me study on your new posts, I ll be back shortly. Regards
Pat wrote:
Roy you are a real gentlemen and a very good diplomatic person.
Sometimes I can be a bully or like we say an elephant in a china shop.
Nothing I brought out was to insult you or your religion. I always question what I see and also want to share my observations with others. I might be very pusy at times and for that I am sorry.
Like I said I have read some of the Bible, Koran, Torah and the Talmud.
There are some good things but in all but there is a lot of very evil things and a lot of inconsistencies.
To me they are all man made period and a real God would not lower himself with such low human attributes.
I personally believe there is a God, a Creator God Force that is so powerful and that we are part of that force.
When you look at nature, the universe and everything that is set in place with the laws that are set up to govern the universes it is impossible that it can be the same God describe with so many evil attributes that is depicted in certain religious books which describe a psychotic, vengeful cruel and hateful human God.
I was born raise as a catholic and served mass. Later on I went to Jehovah Witness bible school, followed by going to Presbyterian bible classes. I also studied different religion as an elective course at a university level.
I was also part of new age movements and read on all kinds of its teachings.
Further more I experienced certain UFO sightings that change my perspective.
Humanity is finally stepping out of kindergarten on a spirituality and on a scientific level.
We all have the same god because god is all and god is we. There is no God that sends us to hell because that is a man made invention to keep us into slavery, in obedience and in opression.
We are all eternal and what ever we do we reap in this lifetime or into another.
We are all matter made of electron and atoms vibrating at a different level and we are pure consciousness rule by scientific laws and housed in a physical body.
If we wish to become a peaceful species, it may well serve us to understand the forces of belief that keep us in continual conflict and why the Bible Koran Torah Talmud have such a stronghold on the minds of people around the world.
Name:Perceptions •
Date: 03/22/07 0:10
A: Well to tell you the TRUTH , I really feel EXACTLYl ike what Pat has mentioned, sometimes.
My main concern is about afterlife, could someone explain it what-so-ever the views/beliefs you have.
A HUMAN, although a miraculous combination of many physical, biological, and chemical aspects with the strict configurations and laws,.......has the SPIRTUAL ASPECT OF THE LIFE.....concerning his PURPOSE ON EARTH..........or not???
We have to pay for UPSETTING the BALANCE IN NATURE.....either way,...physical or spirtual!!!!
YET.....HUMAN ...the only CREATION is CAPABLE of SINS,...or ACCOUNTABLE,.....should be, I guess.
BUT, .......the PUNISHMENT OF HELL...............is still UN_UNDERSTANDABLE to me for HUMANS, compared to their CONFINED AUTHORITY!!!!!!!!!!
What do you think???
Name:Pat •
Date: 03/22/07 13:10
A: Perceptions wrote:
My main concern is about afterlife, could someone explain it what-so-ever the views/beliefs you have.
..............................
BUT, .......the PUNISHMENT OF HELL...............is still UN_UNDERSTANDABLE to me for HUMANS, compared to their CONFINED AUTHORITY!!!!!!!!!!
What do you think???
Pat wrote:
In our English translation of the word 'hell' it is neither warrantable by Scripture or reason
"'Olam' (the Hebrew for aion) simply signifies for a long time. The Hebrew Scriptures do no contain any doctrine to everlasting punishment."
-Rabbi Loewe
We are told that the writers of Hebrew and Greek Scriptures were inspired to write exactly what God told them to write. Unfortunately, no translator was so inspired.
But what about hell?"
Jesus never used the English word "hell" and He never used any Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic word meaning what most people believe "hell" means
How many times is the word "hell" in the Bible, and how many Hebrew and Greek words are translated "hell" in your King James Bible?
None.
Here is a summary of the original Hebrew and Greek words which the King James' translators rendered into the English word "hell."
The only Hebrew word translated "hell" in what is commonly called the Old Testament, is the word "Sheol." "Sheol" occurs 65 times.
Sheol is translated as "hell" 31 times,
as "grave" 31 times,
and as "pit" 3 times in the King James Bible.
It is obvious that if "Sheol" means "hell," it should not be translated "grave or pit "
"Sheol" in Hebrew means the same as the Greek noun "Hades."
"Hades" is derived from the Greek verb "horao."
"Horao" means "I am seeing"
The Greeks then prefixed the word with "a" (alpha) which negates "to see"
Therefore "Hades" meaning "unseen."
Therefore, "Sheol" and "Hades" mean "unseen. and not Hell as the the King James translators did.
Got it perceptions.
Out of the belly of hell (Sheol) cried I." (Jonah 2:2) Verse 1:17 tells us he was "in the belly of the fish for three days and three nights.
Where was Jonah-in Hell or in a fish?
If "Sheol" is translated "unseen" we have no problem. Jonah was in the "belly of the fish" and was "unseen."
The bible says that Jonah was "in the belly of the fish for three days and three nights." (Jonah 1:17) This agrees with the words of Jesus, for He said, "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish." (Matt. 12:40)he would be.
Jesus meant that he would be unseen for three days and three nights.
according to the KJV, Jesus was in "Hell." (see Acts 2:27, 31) Obviously Jesus' soul was not in "hell-fire." He sure did suffer enough on the cross. Jesus was in a unseen place
Another Greek word "Gehenna" occurs 12 times in the New Testament; 11 times in the Gospels and one time in the Epistle of James. Jesus used "Gehenna" about 7 times. Some of the occurrences of "Gehenna" are in parallel passages, that is, they refer to the same event.
"Gehenna" is the Greek form of the Hebrew "ge-hinnom." It literally means "valley of Hinnom".
"Gehenna" is a valley that lays on the west and southwest of Jerusalem.
In the past and in this valley, Israel offered up its children as a burnt offering to a god who came to be known as Moloch. In Jeremiah, we see that YahwehGod/Alien speaking to Jeremiah is very piss off
regarding these sacrifice.
Jeremiah says this valley would one day be called the "Valley of slaughter." (Jer. 7:30-33) This Scripture had its literal fulfillment in 70 A.D. at the destruction of Jerusalem.
King Josiah, in his days, desecrated this place by tearing down all the idols, crushing or burning them, and burning human bones on them (probably those of the priests who presided over these rituals).
In Jesus' day, this valley was a city dump very much like modern dumps-always being filled, and therefore always having something for the fire to consume and worms to eat. ("where the worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.)
It was a place fit only for waste.
Should a Jew, God's "chosen" people ever be given a burial in "Gehenna," it would be the most humiliating thing that could ever happen to him.
It would be like saying that one's life here on earth was completely worthless, fit only for the dump.
For Jesus to tell a religious Jew, such as a Pharisee, that his life, his religious works, his devotion to God were fit only for the city dump, was to insult him in the worst possible way.
Today one can walk through this "Gehenna," valley and return unscathed by its fires and untouched by the worms which actually consumed a good part of the religious Priestly community of Israel in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.
Their bodies were piled up and their blood ran down into this very valley which Jesus prophesied would be the disgraceful burial place for hundreds of thousands of Jews of that very generation Jesus was speaking to.
Nowhere in the Old Testament is this place translated "Hell" and nowhere in the Old Testament is there a hint that this place referred to a place of eternal punishment after death.
The word which Jesus referred to most often which the King James Bible unfortunately chose to render "hell," in the New Testament, but did not do so in the Old Testament, is this word "Hinnom" or Ge-hinnom (valley of Hinnom) or "Ge-ben-hinnom" (valley of the sons of Hinnom) which was transliterated into the Greek as "gehenna."
A thorough study of this place in the Old Testament will dispel much myth regarding its significance.
The Greek word "tartarus" occurs one single time in the entire Bible and it is found in 2 Peter 2:4. It is the place where sinning messengers (angels) are reserved unto judgment.
"Hell," from the Hebrew word "Sheol" should never have been translated as "Hell."
The Jews today, whose Torah consists of the Old Testament do not translate it "Hell" because in no way does "Sheol" correspond with the images and doctrines the church associates with the word "Hell"
The Greek word "Hades" is the equivalent of "Sheol" and has the same meaning.
The Greek mythological place the Greeks called "Tartarus" occurs one time in the Biblical text to denote a holding place for messengers (angels) "til" judgment which indicates an eventual release from this place.
Gehenna was a well-known locality near Jerusalem, and ought no more to be translated Hell, than should Sodom or Gomorrah. See Josh. 15:8; 2 Kings 17:10; 2 Chron. 28:3; Jer. 7:31,32; 19:2.
Gehenna is never employed in the Old Testament to mean anything else than the place with which every Jew was familiar.
No Jewish writer, such as Josephus, or Philo, ever used it as the name of a place of future punishment, as they would have done had such then been its meaning.
No classical Greek author ever alludes to it, and therefore, it was a Jewish locality, purely.
The first Jewish writer who ever names it as a place of future punishment is Jonathan Ben Uzziel, who wrote, according to various authorities, from somewhere between the second to the eighth century A.D.
The first Christian writer who calls Hell, Gehenna, is Justin Martyr, who wrote about A.D. 150.
Neither Christ nor his apostles ever named it to Gentiles, but only to Jews, which proves it a locality only known to Jews, whereas, if it were a place of punishment after death for sinners, it would have been preached to Gentiles as well as to Jews.
It was only referred to twelve times, on eight occasions, in all the ministry of Christ and the apostles, and in the Gospels and Epistles.
Were they faithful to their mission to say no more than this, on so vital a theme as an endless Hell, if they intended to teach it?
Only Jesus and James ever named it. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jude ever employ it.
Would they not have warned sinners concerning it, if there were a Gehenna of torment after death?
Perception,
so you see Jonas was in the fish of a belly ( probably into an vehicle that could go underwater and Jonas was unseen for three days. And just like Jonas Jesus went into an unseen world for 3days and three nights.
Hell is an unseen place for humans
Tartarus is an unseen and holding place for fallen angels/aliens
No body is burning.
Name:BMillikan •
Date: 03/22/07 14:32
A: Hades (from Greek ᾍδης, Haidēs, originally Ἅιδης, Haidēs or Ἀΐδης, Aidēs, probably from Indo-European *n̥-wid- 'unseen'[1]) refers to both the ancient Greek underworld and the god of the dead.
Name:BMillikan •
Date: 03/22/07 14:36
A: In Hebrew [1], Sheol (שאול, Sh'ol) is the "abode of the dead", the "underworld", "the common grave of mankind" or "pit".[2] In the Hebrew Bible, it is a comfortless place beneath the earth, beyond gates, where both the bad and the good, slave and king, pious and wicked must go after death to sleep in silence and oblivion in the dust. Sheol is the common destination of both the righteous and the unrighteous dead, as recounted in Ecclesiastes and Job.
Sheol originated from the ancient Sumerian view that after one dies, no matter how benevolent or malevolent he or she was in life, in Sheol he or she is destined to eat dirt to survive. Sheol is sometimes compared to Hades, the gloomy, twilight afterlife of Greek mythology. In fact, Jews used the word "hades" for "sheol" when they translated their scriptures into Greek. The New Testament (written in Greek) also uses "hades" to mean the abode of the dead (sheol).
By the first century, Jews had come to believe that those in sheol awaited the resurrection either in comfort (in the bosom of Abraham) or in torment. This belief is reflected in Jesus' story of Lazarus and Dives.
Name:roy •
Date: 03/22/07 14:46
A: Pat,
I think it is so nice to hear polite things from you. I am appreciated. It is required to think about these important matters before our death. There are so few people around nowadays to bother even those spirital matters. I believe you have a better understanding of God than me or any ordinary person, It could be also possible that you are praying or believing in God more true way than most of us do. In essence the correct belief is direct from the human to his/her Creator without putting anything in between. (Muslims in minority, put so many idols between God that belief is spoiled. Such as their priests, sect leaders, even they believe their imam is Mesiah came on earth to help Jesus Christ before resurrection day.) (They even made a revolution in Iran after this belief Ayetollah Homayni was supposedly helper to mesiah).
We internally debate to those who have diverted their path as many times as with the non-believers or other religion believers. Within any islamic majority country there is this challenge going on.
The only true source of Muslims is Quran, and science which have never been contradictory. The basis in the teaching of Mohammed was very scientific meshing together pyschology, philosophy, logic, human nature even biology. Thats why the devotees are somewhat lured, seduced, blinded with the Light in this marvelous book.
It took some of them to the point of bigotry. Some logical ones stayed sane but with difficult-to-explain love affair with their Creator and His Messenger~ Please find Mevlana Celaleddin Rumi ;Poems books, sold bestseller in North America.
I find it very interesting that not many muslims are as knowledgeable about their religion as the foreigners to this faith. God says many times He wants thinking brains, rather than dogmatic enslaved peoples. Otherwise He sends dirtyness, stupidty upon them. Does it make any sense to you?
I am a free minded muslim who has chosen to question, learn, investigate the truth. I am still very open if any serious suspicion comes to my faith. I strongly reject Hadiths and traditional way of life that are embedded into Islam from previous times and latter times of living. Islam is misunderstood from those misleading effects. This is why new converts to İslam are living much more correct way than the born muslims. They are not binded by these false attributes, learn it from direct source.
Pat wrote:
“I personally believe there is a God, a Creator God Force that is so powerful and that we are part of that force.”
“We all have the same god because god is all and god is we.”
This is exactly stated in Quran to receive God’s mercy and forgiving, enough to be rewarded with paradise. You need not be muslim to deserve it. I sent the related verses previously so I dont put here again. 2:62/ 22:50/ 85:11/ 98: 7
We all have the same god, but I dont agree on ”god is we”. God is a seperate entity than us. Some muslims have same thought with you, which are called “sufi”, concept name is ; vahded-i vucud. It is a continuing debate within islamic intellectual society for thousand of years. It is very interesting you as nonbeliever has so many common patterns with deep-rooted philosophers of my belief.
Perceptions , Pat,
Coincidentally, I wrote two scientists about similar topics with you, about their findings in their field of research: geneologist, National Institutes of Health and another Phd on human evolution. I put my letter down for your review, as subjects relevant.
I hope to revert to your previous critisicms, thanks for all the feelings of friendly nature, untill then good bye.
LETTER I:
VMAT2
Dean H. Hamer, Ph. D.
Laboratory of Biochemistry, Center for Cancer Research, National Cancer Institute, National Institutes of Health
Building 37, Room 6002
9000 Rockville Pike
BETHESDA MD 20892-4255
Phone: 301-402-2709
Fax: 301-402-5565
Dear Dean H. Hamer, Ph. D.
I read about your research on VMAT2 Genes,
I wanted to contribute from Theology point of view.
I am a muslim who studies Qoran continuously. I came accross some verses related to your topic.
You wrote: “we still dont know how the VMAT2 Gene becomes active and the person becomes a believer. Only by will of God the VMAT2 Gene becomes active. THEY WOULD NOT BELIEVE UNLESS ALLAH SO WILLED We shall solve the mystery behind it.”
The Qoran verses are supporting your claim:
81:19-29 Verily this is the word of a most honourable Messenger, Endued with Power, with rank before the Lord of the Throne, With authority there, (and) faithful to his trust. And (o people!) Your Companion is not one possessed; And without doubt he saw him in the clear horizon. Neither doth he withhold grudgingly a knowledge of the Unseen. Nor is it the word of an evil spirit accursed. Then whither go ye? Verily this is no less than a Message to (all) the Worlds: (With profit) to whoever among you wills to go straight: BUT YE SHALL NOT WİLL EXCEPT AS ALLAH WILLS, THE CHERISHER OF THE WORLDS.
6: 109-112 They swear their strongest oaths by Allah, that if a (special) sign came to them, by it they would believe. Say: certainly (all) Signs are in the power of go: but what will make you (Muslims) realize that (even) if (special) Signs came, they will not believe. We (too) shall turn to (confusion) their hearts and their eyes, even as they refused to believe in this in the first instance: we shall leave them in their trespasses, to wander in distraction. AND THOUGH WE SHOULD SEND DOWN THE ANGELS UNTO THEM, AND THE DEAD SHOULD SPEAK UNTO THEM, AND WE SHOULD GATHER AGAINST THEM ALL THINGS IN ARRAY, THEY WOULD NOT BELIEVE UNLESS ALLAH SO WILLED. HOWBEIT, MOST OF THEM ARE IGNORANT. Likewise did we make for every Messenger an enemy- evil ones among men and Jinns, inspiring each other with flowery discourses by way of deception. If thy Lord had so planned, they would not have done it: so leave them and their inventions alone.
I also want to point out the resemblence in sounds of Genes, and Jinns = Genie which passes at the same verses of Qoran.
LETTER II:
http://www.genome.gov/
Subject: Conference on : Reconciling God and Science
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/-article/0,9171,1211593,00.html
Dear Dr. Francis Collins,
Thanks for your answer,
There is a prestigious and welknown professor in Turkiye, who claims almost same theory with you.
Prof Dr. Hüseyin Hatemi (Ph.D) Law, [email protected]
He has written a booklet “Duanin Anlami” ( Meaning of Prayer) where he describes the creation of human being as a result of evolution and God‘s intervention to it by sending Prophet Adam and Eve, in September 5594 BC. According to their theory, Evolution has been coming till the era while some human-like animals were on the planet. God sent Adam and Eve to the world, their children got married to the already living species, has made up different races and made todays societies. It may also solve positively believers problem that in this case there was no “incest “ between the children, took place at the early stages of human kind.
1000 years after Prophet Adam, Prophet Noah has survived the big flood which was for punishment of those with idolatries. Around 1600 BC. Prophet Abraham was sent, his sons Isiac, Eshmail and several prophets from their generations followed him. Abraham has built the Sacred Kaba at Mecca today. 1300-1230 BC. Was the era of Prophet Moses. More than 1000 years later Prophet Jesus Christ has arrived. At year of 569 AD. Prophet Mohammed was born.
Over 3 millions of muslims gather each year at the pilgrimage ceremony near Mecca at Mount Arafat on Zilhicce 9 (Arabic Calendar~lunar ) (Date changes according to our Calendar every year) . Arafat is at 15 miles South east of Mecca. They believe it is the point where Prophet Adam and Eve were sent to earth after discharged from heaven. (see: photos)
This belief includes Jesus Christ as a muslim Prophet, who once visited Mecca for Pilgrimage purposes.
Coincidentally, Muslims only book Quran describes the city of Mecca as the mother of all the cities. I enclose several verses.
42:7 Thus have We sent by inspiration to thee an Arabic Qur'an: that thou mayest warn the Mother of Cities and all around her,- and warn (them) of the Day of Assembly, of which there is no doubt: (when) some will be in the Garden, and some in the Blazing Fire.
http://www.usc.edu/dept-/MSA/quran/042.qmt.html
6:9-2- And this is a blessed Scripture which We have revealed, confirming that which (was revealed) before it, that thou mayst warn the Mother of Villages and those around her. Those who believe in the Hereafter believe herein, and they are careful of their worship.
http://www.usc.edu/de-pt/MSA/quran/006.qmt.html
3:96--- Lo! the first Sanctuary appointed for mankind was that at Becca [Mecca], a blessed place, a guidance to the peoples; http://www.usc.edu/dept/MS-A/quran/003.qmt.html
27:9-1- I am commanded only that I should serve the Lord of this city (Mecca), Who has made it sacred, and His are all things; and I am commanded that I should be of these who submit;
http://www.usc.edu/dep-t/MSA/quran/027.qmt.html
The- science has also supporting evidence for the human immigration has started near Mecca. The recent DNA research has produced this map below.
Map of Human migrations by mitochondrial population genetics. Numbers are millennia before present.
You may search further at the link below:
http://en.wikipedia.o-rg/wiki/Human_migration
We- muslims believe, the humanity has started with Islam Prophet Adam and continued till today with several Islamic prophets mentioned in Quran numbering around 35 including Abraham Lut, David, Solomon, Moses, Jesus, Mohammed.
Your opinions at article below has some questions and hypothesis. I address some of the issues from islamic point of view:
'WHAT- IS THE MEANING OF HUMAN EXISTENCE'—reason of creation has been described in Quran as following:
51: 56- I have only created Jinns and men, that they may serve Me.
11: 7- He it is who created the heavens and the earth in six days and his throne was over the waters that he might try you, which of you is best in conduct. But if thou wert to say to them, ye shall indeed be raised up after death, the Unbelievers would be sure to say, this is nothing but obvious sorcery
67: 2- He Who created Death and Life, that He may try which of you is best in deed: and He is the Exalted in Might, Oft-Forgiving;
SURRENDER, TRIAS OR TRINITY:
You quote: Finally, one morning in 1978, while hiking in the Pacific Cascades, he came upon a massive, frozen, three-stream waterfall. To him it recalled the Trinity. He writes, "I knelt in the dewy grass as the sun rose and surrendered to Jesus Christ."
3 : 19 The religion before Allah is Islam (submission to his will): nor did the People of the Book dissent therefrom except through envy of each other, after knowledge had come to them. But if any deny the Signs of. Allah, Allah is swift in calling to account.
You have lived a massive emotional experience where you conclude saying felt surrendered to God ~but falsely you call Jesus as God. Do you know what is meaning of Islam in Arabic: Islam (submission to His will), surrender.
The root word of Islam is "al-silm" which means "submission" or "surrender." It is understood to mean "submission to Allah."
[2:136] Say (O Muslims): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed to us and that which was revealed to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received, and that which the prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have surrendered. [Arabic "Muslimoon"]
The text of the Qur'an makes it clear that Allah has clearly intended the focus of this way of life to be submission to Him. This entails submission to Him at all times, in times of peace, war, ease, or difficulty. It is more precise to say that identifying Jesus as `the Son of God' is rejected. As a Messenger of Allah, Jesus is accorded the same honor that all the Messengers are given.
Christ was not any God. God strongly forbids paradise to anyone who claims Christ or any partner share to His Throne. Hundreds of verses written exists in Quran on this topic only because of people have diverted from the true path. Early Christians have changed the Bible according to power hungry Byzantene ruler & bishops wishes at year around 300 AD. The hypothesis and proof of Christ created fatherless but to be a mere human being is very important to us from this point. Quran persistently renounces the notion of “Trias” and defines it as the only unforgivable sin that could be made to Him. Overloving Jesus by his followers brought him to the stage sharing power of God. It remains the same mistake and danger for Muslims to their prophets or imams. God does not need peoples recognition of the latest versions of what He says. That’s why He says keep your own faith as Christian or Jew but don’t commit sin of Trinity or false claims against Me or Jesus because I am the only One. He does not accept religions from those who curses Him in that Trias way, and will not forgive those (only sin NOT to be forgiven) .
If the trias is not accepted at Byzantene time Council 300 AD. It would have been less likely to get acceptance by plural gods greek society of that time and would have been difficult to unite them. God forgives all sins except heretics of trinity. Trias is strictly forbidden in Islam and said has been the continuous pitfall in all previous religions, often lured many believers. It holds the same danger for muslims loving too much of anchestors, priests, or prophets to make them equal or germane in ranking to God. Even asking a wish from those deities are biggest sin committed against God. He warns in hundreds of verses of Quran and Bible to avoid this pitfall or else you wont be forgiven. (Killing may be forgiven but deity worshipping not.) So please be ware of this threat from God and check your books better. You are especially a person to lead the crowd and want to be closer to God. You will get the burden of each person you‘ve diverted, or reward you’ve lead to truth, too. True Christianity never offered equal deity to God. Christ was praying to God for help, why should he have done, if He had been a god himself? Jesus never said pray to me, ask from me. Please check the following Bible verses:
Matta 7:21-23
Psalm 99:9
Timothy 1:17
Isiah 45:21,22
The Qur'an and Sunnah both teach us emphatically and without any doubt that the Creator considers the statement of the Trinity to be a great falsehood. The Qur'an states (translation):
[19:88-93] They say: "(Allah) the Most Merciful has begotten a son!" Indeed you have put forth a thing most monstrous! At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin, that they should invoke a son for (Allah) the Most Merciful. For it is not consonant with the majesty of (Allah) the Most Merciful that He should beget a son: Not one of the beings in the heavens and the earth but must come to (Allah) the Most Merciful as a servant.
2 : 213 Mankind was one single nation, and Allah sent Messengers with glad tidings and warnings; and with them He sent the Book in truth, to judge between people in matters wherein they differed; but the People of the Book, after the clear Signs came to them, did not differ among themselves, except through selfish contumacy. Allah by His Grace guided the Believers to the Truth, concerning that wherein they differed. For Allah guides whom He will to a path that is straight.
[4:171] O people of the scripture, do not transgress the limits of your religion, and do not say about GOD except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was a messenger of GOD, and His word that He had sent to Mary, and a revelation from Him. Therefore, you shall believe in GOD and His messengers. You shall not say, "Trinity." You shall refrain from this for your own good. GOD is only one god. Be He glorified; He is much too glorious to have a son. To Him belongs everything in the heavens and everything on earth. GOD suffices as Lord and Master.
[19:36] He also proclaimed, "GOD is my Lord and your Lord; you shall worship Him alone. This is the right path."
*19:36 This is similar to the statement attributed to Jesus in the Gospel of John 20:17.
[5:72] Pagans indeed are those who say that GOD is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah himself said, "O Children of Israel, you shall worship GOD; my Lord and your Lord." Anyone who sets up any idol beside GOD, GOD has forbidden Paradise for him, and his destiny is Hell. The wicked have no helpers.
*Look at the sameness of Kuran: Sura - 5 ( The Feast ) Al-Ma'edah and Bible Matta 7:21-23
*5:72-76 In John 20:17, we see that Jesus taught that he was neither God, nor the son of God. Many theologians have concluded, after careful research, that today's Christianity is not the same Christianity taught by Jesus. Two outstanding books on this subject are "The Myth of God Incarnate" (The Westminster Press, Philadelphia, 1977) and The "Mythmaker" (Harper & Row, New York, 1986). On the front jacket of "The Mythmaker" we read the following statement:
" ...Hyam Maccoby presents new arguments to support the view that Paul, not Jesus, was the founder of Christianity....it was Paul alone who created a new religion through his vision of Jesus as a divine Saviour who died to save humanity."
[3:59] The example of Jesus, as far as GOD is concerned, is the same as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, "Be," and he was.
[3:60] This is the truth from your Lord; do not harbor any doubts.
[61:6] Recall that Jesus, son of Mary, said, "O Children of Israel, I am GOD's messenger to you, confirming the Torah and bringing good news of a messenger to come after me whose name will be even more praised (Ahmad)." Then, when he showed them the clear proofs, they said, "This is profound magic."
*Sameness of Sura - 61 The Column (Al-Suff) and Bible İsiah 45:21,22
Psalm 99:9 Timothy 1:17 good news fro sneding another prophet called Ahmad(Hz Mohammad) or Pheraklid (praised)= Ahmad
[3:51] "GOD is my Lord and your Lord; you shall worship Him alone. This is the right path."
[3:52] When Jesus sensed their disbelief, he said, "Who are my supporters towards GOD?" The disciples said, "We are GOD's supporters; we believe in GOD, and bear witness that we are submitters / muslims."
*3:51 This is precisely what Jesus is quoted to say throughout the New Testament. See for example the Gospel of John 20:17, and the book "Jesus: Myths and Message" by Lisa Spray, Ch. 4 (Universal Unity, Fremont, CA 1992).
As you say: --such as the development of conditions favoring life on earth in the face of incredible odds--point toward the divine.
It is said exactly same way in many verses of Quran. Where you may find out yourself by searching at :
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/-reference/searchquran.html
I-t- has been my honor to write to you. I am at your disposal.
My kindest regards
Name:BMillikan •
Date: 03/22/07 14:57
A: Hades: A Logical View
Yes, Christians believe in Hell and the "abode of the dead" or Greek Underworld because in Hell the soul "dies". We do not believe Christians go there because the soul continues to "live" after death. Believe what you want about Hell, but I strongly believe it's real. I'm sure a good search would uncover many words that relate to Sh'ol or Hades in the Bible. The question is, do you want to believe that people like Hitler, Stalin, Jeffrey Dahmer and others like that (mass murderers and such) are going to be in the same afterlife as those who aren't?
Pat has a very critical view of the Bible and I happen to believe in it because I've heard and seen it work in practice! I've experienced it's truths. You can believe me when I say a Hell does exist, but so will a new Earth (after this one is destroyed) and true Christians will live there forever. There is a "God above all gods" that Pat pointed out earlier that will sit in the Judgement seat and judge each and every one of us. This may seen cruel, but I'm speaking to you now so that you might escape eternal death and have eternal life. You will have nothing to fear.
Name:BMillikan •
Date: 03/22/07 15:06
A: As a former student of Hebrew, I know that the word depends greatly on the "context" in which it is used. Most Hebrew writers do not include the "vowels" when they write. You hear them when they speak, however. Unlike Chinese where words may sound the same, but have different symbols for different meaning words. A lot of times when they speak, you must understand the context in which they are using the word or words. Same thing in Hebrew writing. A lot of Pat's contradictions, I have found, to be out of context with the Bible as a whole. Many are talking about the future or prophesy about what's going to happen vs. what we are supposed to be doing now. I don't want to go line by line because so many are listed, but that's just a general statement for most of the one's I've looked at.
Name:BMillikan •
Date: 03/22/07 15:13
A: Pat:
Look here, there's some discrepancies in your "doctrine" about Sh'ol.
http://www.yeshuatyisrael.com/sheol.htm
Name:Pat •
Date: 03/22/07 22:07
A: BMillikan wrote:
The question is, do you want to believe that people like Hitler, Stalin, Jeffrey Dahmer and others like that (mass murderers and such) are going to be in the same afterlife as those who aren't?
Pat wrote:
Everybody does not die and go into the after life at the same time. And yes in due time they will live in peace and be forgiven. The laws of Karma exist and that is what Jesus preached what you sow your reap
Paradise is not just a place were you go and have eternal fun bathing in the sun and eating figs.
Once dead your real you which is a replica of your physical body for a while vibrating at a higher level goes into a learning process with others that guide you through that school period.
You are the one who evaluate yourself and judge your actions and decide your further existence and how painful it may be based on your past earthly experience results.
You are the one that judge yourself into a pretty hard existence to be if the case may be.
Did Jesus not say don't you know that ye are Gods.
Well friends we are eternal and an extension of individual souls of the God Force and if it take billions of years to find our true selves and get back to the right place and the right track we have eternity to figure it out.
The God Force is in no ruch.
If we can create our heaven and hell on this earth we can create it elsewhere or back here in another life. We choose.
These people will put themselves into suffering positions just like they made other suffer. Yet they will enter also during eternity eventually a blissmal place to be too.
All is energy and you cannot destroy energy it just transform itself.
Name:Pat •
Date: 03/22/07 22:32
A: BMillikan wrote:
You can believe me when I say a Hell does exist, but so will a new Earth (after this one is destroyed) and true Christians will live there forever.
Pat wrote:
This earth might go through rough times and changes but it is not going to be destroyed. Christians and others will still live here on earth if they are still alive. The up coming battle is not a battle about the God Force versus human’s beings. It is the battle between good and evil aliens that have manufactured us in labs. ( Good or bad Angels ). Angels have no wings and they eat solid food too. Not only that they mated with women on earth and produced children.
So to some we are their prize possessions and they want to continue to enslave us especially since we have reach a scientific mind and that we can be more useful for them than before. In a way they harvest us.
BMillikan wrote:
There is a "God above all gods" that Pat pointed out earlier that will sit in the Judgment seat and judge each and every one of us. This may seem cruel, but I'm speaking to you now so that you might escape eternal death and have eternal life. You will have nothing to fear.
Pat wrote:
There is a God Force that we are all part of and who is above aliens like Yahweh and Satan playing Gods. However the God in the bible the God in the Koran the God in the Torah or in the Talmud is not the real God force.
They are very advance scientific aliens that played God to primitive people back then with a future agenda, which is approaching fast.
If there is going to be hell fire it is going to be here on earth when a few nuclear bombs are going to be triggered off. And also when there is going to be a confrontation between their military and our earthly military.
What could be hell too is that some very advance aliens are able to capture souls and held them captive for a while. But this is not done by the God force.
Us as pure individual energy souls and extention of the God Force choose our destiny past present and future througout eternity
Name:Pat •
Date: 03/22/07 22:40
A: : BMillikan • Date: 03/22/07 11:13
A: Pat:
Look here, there's some discrepancies in your "doctrine" about Sh'ol.
http://www.yeshuatyisrael.com/sheol.htm
Pat wrote:
Not at all check my previous post.
I talk about unseen place, I mention it can be the grave the pit.
My point is that there is no hell were people go to suffer and burn for all of eternity.
Name:roy •
Date: 03/23/07 23:02
A: Pat wrote:
Everybody does not die and go into the after life at the same time. And yes in due time they will live in peace and be forgiven. The laws of Karma exist and that is what Jesus preached what you sow your reap.They are very advance scientific aliens that played God to primitive people back then with a future agenda, which is approaching fast.
If there is going to be hell fire it is going to be here on earth when a few nuclear bombs are going to be triggered off. And also when there is going to be a confrontation between their military and our earthly military.
What could be hell too is that some very advance aliens are able to capture souls and held them captive for a while. But this is not done by the God force.
Us as pure individual energy souls and extention of the God Force choose our destiny past present and future througout eternity
Roy Wrote:
You know this life and after life hell and heaven . how is it possible? Do you have a clue or any book of yours to believe inlik echristians or muslims? If yes who wrote it? Do you believe in aliens created life on earth, several gods and a superior God. If I am not mistaken you say so. You dont believe a very fact of existence theories science prooves, billlions of believers acceps, but just for teh sake of marginal living,you choose to believe in such invention crap.
If you testify these things against a doctor in mental clinic, definetly will mark you for insanity. It is non comparable to th eworst bigotry case of any conventional religion. Is it scientology what you believe in? I dont know them very well.
Sorry for being too harsh to your belief but it is false way ~ return back before too late falling down the cliff. such as putting all fortune or effort at this church's disposal, finally at age of 80 realise that they decieved you.
When you start saying there is God. I thought you believe in God but after saying many gods visited earth, started life here as test ground, we were created at labratory, I met aliens, we a re god ...
What else will come after these claims? You are the terminator, or new religion settler? After critisizing fiercly about the established belief systems. Seems defending human freedom, superiority of thought and science, theories of idealism, historical claims of massacre, genocide of one race against another.. I was expecting more sophisticated belief of yours behind all.
What are you doing with all these junk. Creating a new ideology or saved holy land for you? I am sure you have thousands people of this Science fiction fairy tale fake-religion. This is not what we are talking here, no relevancy with playing around stories. We talk about religion, Jesus, Moses, Prophets most important matter in millions of man's life... States, families make and break, people live honestly, sacrifies many joys of life, saves many falsehood, helps others because of it. These have nothing to do comparing to your space religion, aliens, conspiracy theories, hatred filled slanders.
You are mixed up in reality, imagination, fiction, belief... everything in flying state.. as your alien scientists.
No wonder many American find it so much intersting the
Name:roy •
Date: 03/23/07 23:13
A: "star wars" Mad max, waterworld, Matrix, Lord of the rings, Superman . We rest of the world ridicule the naive people, when movie first released thousands sleep at the gate of the theather to see it first. They recently paid 60.000 usd for a small item used in the star wars movie. Similarly this space religion is well suited to American society.
Come on this is not one of them we are talking about, here is a religion in question although the documentary is still a movie it is coming form different perspective. When are you American intellectual looking but child level maturity in mind masses will grow up to make a serious discussion.
Name:Miles •
Date: 03/24/07 1:58
A: Thanks to Jacobovici,Pellegrino and Cameron for their good work and their corurage. Plausibility, sensibility and spirituallity have never been supported by the inappropriate literalist belief that Jesus floated into the sky like a helium balloon, a medievial intepretation that obfuscates Christianity and leaves it in dysfunction. Christians need to stop worshiping their doctrine and embrace the message of compassion, tolerance and service to others in the grace of our amazement of creation, as Jesus advocated. I don't think that he ever intended the doctrinal nonsense that preoccupies most fundamentalist and near-fundamentalist Christian organizations. It is not only that Jacobovici embraces the far better plausibility but that this work can only improve Christianity and resurrect the message that has been lost in a mound of doctrine and dogma.
Name:Pat •
Date: 03/24/07 13:20
A: Roy :
Please do not degrate yourself with name calling. This will be my last post.
The Koran and Islam came around 560 AD, the official Gospel of the Bible and the official Catholic Church came around 450 Ad
1500 BC Moses was around.
2000 BC Abraham.
However 4000 years BC before existed the Sumerian culture with God Enki and Enhil who were Aliens playing God. It is all depicted very well. and all major religion such as Christian Jewish /Hebrew and Islam derives from that Sumerian culture and period.
Thousands of cuneiform tablets and texts depicts a very high civilization and out ways any other older text here on earth.
This over 4000 years BC depicting the following points
445,000 years ago the Nefilim sons of the ANNUnaki / Alien race led by Enki arrive on earth in southern Mesopotamia Earth Station 1 in search of gold and other things.
430,000 years ago the great ice sheets begin to recede. Hospitable climate in the Near East is available.
415,000 years ago Enki moves inland and establish Larsa
400,000 years ago Enlil arrives who is Enki’s brother. He establishes Nippur as a mission control station. ( Just like one day we will be able to do so once we land on Mars or elsewhere in the distant future)
Enki establishes sea routes to southern Africa organizes gold-mining operations.
They came here for Gold.
360,000 years ago the Annunaki race or Nefilim establish Bad Tiira as their metallurgical center for smelting and refining. Sippar the spaceport and other cities of the Gods or Aliens are built.
300,000 years ago the Annunaki mutiny with in their race on earth happened. These scientist aliens were tired of doing hard laborious work in the mines.
They revolted and complained to their leader.
Scientific bioengineering man was fashion as a solution.
In the meantime 2,000,000 years ago the first being considered to be manlike called Advanced Australopithecus existed in the same parts of Africa. It took another 1,000,000 millions years to have Homo Erectus.
The Annunaki took Homo Erectus as guinea pigs. In scientific laboratories here on earth Enki and the female head bioengineering scientific doctor Ninhursag with trial and error used Homo Erectus to fashion out their Primitive Worker.
In the beginning many bad monstrous results where produce to finally get the primitive worker to slave the mines.
However the primitive worker could not copulate and produce offspring at the time .
250,000 years ago early Homo sapiens is finally reached by mixing their alien DNA with their primitive worker. Early Homo sapiens modern man can multiply and also spread to other continents
200,000 years ago life on Earth regresses during a new glacial period.
100,000 years ago the climate warms again. The sons of the Gods/Aliens take the daughters of men as wives
75,000 years ago a new ice age begins. Regressive types of man roam the earth
49,000 years ago the reign of Ziusurddra (or Noah) a faithful servant of Enki begins.
38,000 years ago the harsh climatic period begins to decimate Mankind Europe Neanderthal Man disappears only Cro-Magnon man based in the near East survives
Enhil the son of an Annunaki god or alien and to me also the so-called biblical God later called Yahweh is very disenchanted with Mankind seeks its demise.
This is very clearly depicted in the Sumerian tablets and texts as well later on recorded in the biblical Old Testament.
13,000 years ago the Nephilim sons of the Gods or of the aliens with scientist technology are very aware of an impending tidal wave will be triggered. They vow to let mankind ( their scientific laboratory creation) perish.
The Deluge seeps over the Earth abruptly ending the ice age.
Not a bad story written and recorded down over 6,000 years ago and it is far from being finished.
To me the personage of the alien Ehlil depicted in the Sumerian texts who reappears and is one and the same but now called Yahweh as depicted in the Old Testament.
He actually brought out of Babylon Abraham.
Abraham before this and with his meeting with Yahweh was worshipping the same gods of his parents which were Ehil and Enki and all the Sumerian Gods of the past.
Enhil now called Yahweh wanted to make sure that Abraham got the concept that he was the most powerful and only God and started the bioengineer of his Jewish pure human race through him.
Yahweh God/alien acknowlege that there are other Gods and claims that he is the most powerful one.
He is not a God but a Alien.
Let us remember that without alien intervention, man normal evolution on earth without their scientific interference would of taken millions of years in the future before the normal course of evolution would of produce homo sapiens thinking man.
Enlil /Yahweh often wanted more than once to remove the once hybrid mixture of aliens and humans on earth.
This happened with the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah moving the Jews out of Babylon, their 40 years exile in the desert. and the ethnic biological cleansing.
When Yahweh commands Moses and his army to kill all the women, children, and men of the existing tribes in Canaan, who unfortunately where still living there it is because they were the remaining descendants of the mixtures of aliens and earth women.
Before their arrival in that promise land in order so that his pure race was save of possible cross hybrid contamination a full massacred was therefore ordained before.
Enlil/ Yahweh in the bible period as well in the past Sumerian period just had distain and contempt for the human race.
Enki seems to love us more or perhaps wanted to team with us so that one day we can overpower his brother.
However they are coming back to rule the planet with an Iron fist and to enslave mankind once they have ushered in the New world order and the new one world wide religion and put it in place.
Now that we have reach a certain scientific level we could be much more of use and help to them.
The rest Roy I leave it up to you to do your search on the internet.
Roy wrote:
When you start saying there is God. I thought you believe in God but after saying many gods visited earth, started life here as test ground, we were created at laboratory, I met aliens, we a re god...
What else will come after these claims? You are the terminator, or new religion settler? After criticizing fiercely about the established belief systems. Seems defending human freedom, superiority of thought and science, theories of idealism, historical claims of massacre, genocide of one race against another. I was expecting more sophisticated belief of yours behind all.
What are you doing with all these junk? Creating a new ideology or saved holy land for you?
Pat wrote:
It is not junk Roy it is a lot of common sense. A 100 years ago there was no electricity. In a hundred years we now are flying planes and space ships with computers through out the Solar system.
We are doing all kinds of bioengineering in laboratories today and discovering there is a lot of water on Mars and elsewhere.
In a Hundred years we will be able to colonies hospitable planets and in those colonies we will be able to place humans there to live. We could create offspring’s there living a climate adaptable and have humans born there thinking that we are their creators and their Gods. Just like it happened to us. Scientist around the world are already working on all of these concepts.
Grow up and stop being so emotional.
Name:Pat •
Date: 03/24/07 14:20
A: Roy wrote:
When you start saying there is God. I thought you believe in God but after saying many gods visited earth, started life here as test ground, we were created at labratory, I met aliens, we a re god ...
What else will come after these claims? You are the terminator, or new religion settler? After critisizing fiercly about the established belief
systems. Seems defending human freedom, superiority of thought and science, theories of idealism, historical claims of massacre, genocide of one race against another.. I was expecting more sophisticated belief of yours behind all.
Pat wrote:
There are trillions and trillions and to no end of stars, planets and universes.
Do you really believe that the planet earth and us humans are the belly button of the universes?
Wrong my friend, If Bush and others bomb the planet with nuclear bombs and destroy all life on the whole planet there is still life elsewhere with humans or some type of humanoids.
There is a Creator God Force
There are other people living in other planets and worlds and who are visiting us for thousands and thousands of years.
When we will land on an other planet we will be extraterrestrials to them too.
The Bible/Christian, the Vedas/ Hindu the Torah/ Talmud Hebrew all refers to God but in fact they do not depict the Creator God Force but aliens playing God nor. The same with Allah in the Koran.
Roy do you honestly think that Mohamed flew on a horse in heaven or in the air?
If he flew, it was with some sort of flying vehicle. Primitive people were ignorant back then and had no concept of science.
And because men were very savage and ignorant these aliens playing God created religion to keep them in line.
The people that came and met Abraham Moses Mohamed and others with sophisticated flying vehicles were not the Almighty God force per say but they were extraterrestrial beings in flesh and blood.
They were so powerful in sciences and technology that humans back them naturally took them for Gods. And this just like a helicopter that lands in the jungle in front of a pygmy that never say a white man before he will automatically think that the white man is a god from heaven.
And Roy yes I did see some UFOs that were not man made and so have millions of other people around the world.
Do you think that the American Government and others plus the Vatican the Catholic Church and other religions tell the real truth to the ordinary people.
No and please stop being so naive and start thinking for yourself.
The Creator God Force will not punish you or send you to hell like the suppose holy books that were written by men do to keep you in slavery and exploit you.
I find it strange with all the comments and links that I have made concerning Islam from opression of women and pedophile acceptable in Islam you never came back on this.
Name:roy •
Date: 03/24/07 16:37
A: Pat,
If I may, some advice from me my friend: Whoever wrote your belief is a man, who took the real stories passed in holy books, or antient sumerians, Sier books ( History of life) of Prophet Mohammed, Jesus, and make a nonfiction novel out of it adding them many slanders. They often irritates the believers, causes scepticism in hearts of less knowledgable devotees. You better give up on that. Believe wahatever else, but dont insult peoples beliefs, nor damage them. Is it for you as a job to fuel the conflicts between jews, christians, and muslims? Or keep records of them or exagerate genocide stories? Keep your unearthly faith if you like but dont try to make people enemy to each other. They already had enough fight, but at present seen more civilized. Contribute to the peace, not to the war, or else your gods will get you, haha. If I sound calling you names at previous writing, I appologise, I didnt mean.
For aliens living in space, nobody has any objection. No christian or muslim says it is against my belief, there may be or may not be. It is not so important. The importance is whoever comes one planet does not claim he is “god”. If your future generation able to go and habitat at Mars, they will surely have the technology to carry with them a small chip to store history. Can you not think this much simple proving your theories are fallacies?
PAT WROTE:
I find it strange with all the comments and links that I have made concerning Islam from opression of women and pedophile acceptable in Islam you never came back on this.
ROY WROTE:
I will hopefuly write about them. As I earlier wrote a little. I dont have this much energy to answer all your imaginative slanders. Your letters has so many nonsence that I can not cope with them. For the time being read the answer given by someone else. By the way do you read what I wrote? Or else I am doing everything for trash?
PAT WROTE:
Let us remember that without alien intervention, man normal evolution on earth without their scientific interference would of taken millions of years in the future before the normal course of evolution would of produce homo sapiens thinking man.
ROY WROTE:
I think it is same story believed by all faiths. Plus science has contributed to this fact recently. This is only truth you wrote perhaps.
DR.- HUSEYIN HATEMI VERSION (Muslim Scholar):
Prof Dr. Hüseyin Hatemi (Ph.D) Law, [email protected]
He has written a booklet “Duanin Anlami” ( Meaning of Prayer) where he describes the creation of human being as a result of evolution and God‘s intervention to it by sending Prophet Adam and Eve, in September 5594 BC. According to their theory, Evolution has been coming till the era while some human-like animals were on the planet. God sent Adam and Eve to the world, their children got married to the already living species, has made up different races and made todays societies.
DR. COLLINS' VERSION (Christian Scientist)
The pious young scientist had a question about human origins and the attention of one of the foremost geneticists in the world. Standing up in a crowded Hilton-hotel conference room in Alexandria, Va., the inquisitive Ph.D.-M.D. candidate asked Francis Collins, who mapped the human genome, about an attempt to reconcile science and faith: Did Collins think it possible that all species are products of evolution--except for humanity, which God created separately? "Based on everything we know," the young man asked, "would that tie together evolution and [a literal reading of the Bible] and make room for God to intervene?"
Collins showed no surprise that a star scholar poised to contribute to the future of medicine should entertain the idea that evolution might not apply to humans.
Collins' version sees God as having preplanned the process of mutation and selection at time's beginning, knowing it would produce humanity. It differs from Deism, the "divine clockmaker" theology of Enlightenment thinkers like Thomas Jefferson, in that many Deists think God signed off once the clock was wound. Collins, on the other hand, thinks the whole point was for God to create a being with whom he could develop an ongoing relationship through prayer, Scripture and what the scientist cheerfully acknowledges as a scientifically inexplicable "divine invasion of the natural world" in the saving person of Jesus Christ.
The book is hard on intelligent design, heaping scientific doubt on its key notion of "irreducible complexity" in phenomena like blood clotting, and theological scorn on its ultimate implications ("I.D. portrays the Almighty as a clumsy Creator, having to intervene at regular intervals to fix the inadequacies of His own initial plan ... this is a very unsatisfactory image").
Indeed, the question was almost predictable, since the room was filled with Harvey Fellows, high-performing young academics devoted to bringing a Christian presence to fields where Evangelicals are underrepresented. And Collins, that rarest of raritiesa superstar evangelical biologist and author of the new book The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief (Free Press; 304 pages), was perfectly qualified to answer. He did. That notion "gets you into a series of real problems," he replied. He sketched one out: the human genome contains nonfunctional elements in the precise spot where they can be found on the chromosomes of lower animals. If God was creating humans afresh, Collins asked, "why would he insert a pseudo-gene that has lost its ability to do anything in the same place that it appears in a chimp?" Barring evolution, "you're forced to the conclusion that God was trying to mislead us and test our faith--and I have trouble with that kind of conjecture."
In America's ongoing and sometimes rancorous discussion about science and God, some stock characters have evolved. There are the vocal proponents of creationism and intelligent design who storm school boards in hopes that either science or local government will conform to their beliefs. Then there are academic atheists who claim increasingly aggressively that science is in the process of proving religion a delusion. But few of the polemicists have the authority to preach beyond their own choirs. Most believers don't care to listen to an atheistic scientist calling the idea of God a mythology created to explain what humans don't understand, and academic atheists are just as uninterested in scientific lectures from Bible literalists.
Collins, however, has both the standing and the desire to promote a third way. At 56, he is an unassuming 6-ft. 4-in. stork with a reedy voice, a techie's el cheapo digital Timex and--his one touch of flash--a wide silver ring emblazoned with a cross. "I think the majority of people in the U.S. probably occupy a middle ground but feel under attack by the bombs thrown from either side," he says. "We haven't heard very much about the way these views can be rendered into a very satisfying harmony. And I do hope that both camps are a potential audience for what I have to say."
For whole story Link at:
time.com/time/magazine/artic-le/0,9171,1211593,00.html
PA-T- WROTE:
Roy do you honestly think that Mohamed flew on a horse in heaven or in the air?
If he flew, it was with some sort of flying vehicle. Primitive people were ignorant back then and had no concept of science.
And because men were very savage and ignorant these aliens playing God created religion to keep them in line.
ROY WROTE:
Yes I believe. It is written in Quran, celebrated every year as the “mirac” Watch out for the synonomity with “miracle”. I leave it to etimologists where name is it coming from.
We have a great belief in Mohammed (saas) has flew to Jarusalem from Mecca in one moment, from where He ascended to heaven on a special vehicle ( a horse called
“Burak” we have the Stone in Istanbul where he has standed before the flight. The Stone has some carvings, marks for his footsteps and his horses steps as one inch radius circles. It is brought from Jarusalem the holy place for Muslims Mescid-i Aksa. If you are interested I can help further, in a condition that you will not use news for your fairy tales.
ARTICLE:
Who Practices Polygamy?
___________________-_____________________
Polygam-y- has been practiced by mankind for thousands of years. Many of the ancient Israelites were polygamous, some having hundreds of wives. King Solomon is said to have had seven hundred wives and three hundred concubines. David (Dawood) had ninety-nine and Jacob (Yacub, peace be upon them both) had four. Advice given by some Jewish wise men state that no man should marry more than four wives. No early society put any restrictions on the number of wives or put any conditions about how they were to be treated. Jesus was not known to have spoken against polygamy. As recently as the seventeenth century, polygamy was practiced and accepted by the Christian Church. The Mormons (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) has allowed and practiced polygamy in the United States.
Monogamy was introduced into Christianity at the time of Paul when many revisions took place in Christianity. This was done in order for the church to conform to the Greco-Roman culture where men were monogamous but owned many slaves who were free for them to use: In other words, unrestricted polygamy.
Early Christians invented ideas that women were "full of sin" and man was better off to "never marry." Since this would be the end of mankind these same people compromised and said "marry only one."
In the American society many times when relations are strained, the husband simply deserts his wife. The he cohabits with a prostitute or other immoral woman without marriage. Actually there are three kinds of polygamy practiced in Western societies:
1. serial polygamy, that is, marriage, divorce, marriage, divorce, and so on any number of times;
2. a man married to one woman but having and supporting one or more mistresses;
3. an unmarried man having a number of mistresses.
Islam condones but discourages the first and forbids the other two.
Wars cause the number of women to greatly exceed the number of men. In a monogamous society these women, left without husbands or support, resort to prostitution, illicit relationships with married men resulting in illegitimate children with no responsibility on the part of the father, or lonely spinsterhood or widowhood.
Some Western men take the position that monogamy protects the rights of women. But are these men really concerned about the rights of women? The society has so many practices which exploit and suppress women, leading to women's liberation movements from the suffragettes of the early twentieth century to the feminists of today.
The truth of the matter is that monogamy protects men, allowing them to "play around" without responsibility. Easy birth control and easy legal abortion has opened the door of illicit sex to woman and she has been lured into the so-called sexual revolution. But she is still the one who suffers the trauma of abortion and the side effects of the birth control methods. Taking aside the plagues of venereal disease, herpes and AIDS, the male continues to enjoy himself free of worry. Men are the ones protected by monogamy while women continue to be victims of men's desires. Polygamy is very much opposed by the male dominated society because it would force men to face up to responsibility and fidelity. It would force them to take responsibility for their polygamous inclinations and would protect and provide for women and children.
Among all the polygamous societies in history there were none which limited the number of wives. All of the relationships were unrestricted. In Islam, the regulations concerning polygamy limit the number of wives a man can have while making him responsible for all of the women involved.
"Marry women of your choice, two or three or four; but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with them, then only one or one that your right hands possess. That will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice." (Qur'an 4:3)
This verse from the Qur'an allows a man to marry more than one woman but only if he can deal justly with them. Another verse says that a person is unable to deal justly between wives, thus giving permission but discouraging.
"You will never be able to deal justly between wives however much you desire (to do so). But (if you have more than one wife) do not turn altogether away (from one), leaving her in suspense..." (Qur'an 4:129)
While the provision for polygamy makes the social system flexible enough to deal with all kinds of conditions, it is not necessarily recommended or preferred by Islam. Taking the example of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is instructive. He was married to one woman, Khadijah, for twenty-five years. It was only after her death when he had reached the age of fifty that he entered into other marriages to promote friendships, create alliances or to be an example of some lesson to the community; also to show the Muslims how to treat their spouses under different conditions of life.
The Prophet was given inspiration from Allah about how to deal with multiple marriages and the difficulties encountered therein. It is not an easy matter for a man to handle two wives, two families, and two households and still be just between the two. No man of reasonable intelligence would enter into this situation without a great deal of thought and very compelling reasons (other than sexual).
Some people have said that the first wife must agree to the second marriage. Others have said that the couple can put it into the marriage contract that the man will not marry a second wife. First of all, neither the Qur'an nor Hadith state that the first wife need be consulted at all concerning a second marriage let alone gain her approval. Consideration and compassion on the part of the man for his first wife should prompt him to discuss the matter with her but he is not required to do so or to gain her approval. Secondly, the Qur'an has explicitly given permission for a man to marry "two or three or four." No one has the authority to make a contract forbidding something that has been granted by Allah.
The bottom line in the marriage relationship is good morality and happiness, creating a just and cohesive society where the needs of men and women are well taken care of. The present Western society, which permits free sex between consenting adults, has given rise to an abundance of irresponsible sexual relationships, an abundance of "fatherless" children, many unmarried teenage mothers; all becoming a burden on the country's welfare system. In part, such an undesirable welfare burden has given rise to bloated budget deficits which even an economically powerful country like the United States cannot accommodate. Bloated budget deficits have become a political football which is affecting the political system of the United States.
In short, we find that artificially created monogamy has become a factor in ruining the family structure, and the social, economic and political systems of the country.
It must be a prophet, and indeed it was Prophet Muhammad who directed Muslims to get married or observe patience until one gets married. 'Abdullah b. Mas'ud reported Allah's messenger as saying, "Young man, those of you who can support a wife should marry, for it keeps you from looking at strange women and preserves you from immorality; but those who cannot should devote themselves to fasting, for it is a means of suppressing sexual desire." (Bukhari and Muslim)
Islam wants people to be married and to develop a good family structure. Also Islam realizes the requirements of the society and the individual in special circumstances where polygamy can be the solution to problems. Therefore, Islam has allowed polygamy, limiting the number of wives to four, but does not require or even recommend polygamy.
In the Muslim societies of our times, polygamy is not frequently practiced despite legal permission in many countries. It appears that the American male is very polygamous, getting away with not taking responsibility for the families he should be responsible for.
Mary Ali
(Note: In this article polygamy has been used to mean polygamy meaning having two or more wives. Islam forbids polyandry meaning having two or more husbands.)
Name:Pat •
Date: 03/24/07 20:20
A: ROY WROTE:
Yes I believe. It is written in Quran, celebrated every year as the “mirac” Watch out for the synonomity with “miracle”. I leave it to etimologists where name is it coming from.
We have a great belief in Mohammed (saas) has flew to Jarusalem from Mecca in one moment, from where He ascended to heaven on a special vehicle ( a horse called
“Burak” we have the Stone in Istanbul where he has standed before the flight. The Stone has some carvings, marks for his footsteps and his horses steps as one inch radius circles. It is brought from Jarusalem the holy place for Muslims Mescid-i Aksa. If you are interested I can help further, in a condition that you will not use news for your fairy tales.
Roy:
Flying horse miracle of God. Oh Please Roy. Now that is a fairy tale
Roy wrote:
For aliens living in space, nobody has any objection. No christian or muslim says it is against my belief, there may be or may not be. It is not so important.
Pat wrote:
Yes this is very important because man would not be man as it is today.
There was aliens interferance and it was very well depicted over 6000 years ago.
Roy:
Those that came from the sky played Gods because they are the ones that tampered with the hominid, the product of evolution on Earth that were living at that time on earth.
By mixing their genes to them the created humans in labaratories which were are thier decendants
Those newly formed humans had no choice than to take them for Gods.
Chapter One
THE FIRST ENCOUNTERS
"....Divine Encounters are the ultimate human experience perhaps because they were also the very first human experience; for when God created Man, Man met God at the very moment of being created.
"....No one after Adam and Eve could attain the experience of being the first humans on Earth, with the attendant first Divine Encounters. But what has ensued in the Garden of Eden has endured as part of human yearning unto our own days.
"....The chain of events leading to the Expulsion from Paradise raises a lasting question: How did Adam and Eve hear God - how does God communicate with humans at such, or any Divine Encounters? Can the humans see the divine speaker, or just hear the message? And how is the message conveyed - face-to-face? Telepathically? In a holographic vision? Through the medium of dreams?
"We shall examine the ancient evidence for the answers. But as far as the events in the Garden of Eden are concerned, the biblical text suggests a physical divine presence....
And they heard the sound of the Lord God
walking in the garden in the cool of the day;
And Adam and his wife hid themselves
from the presence of the Lord God
amongst the trees of the garden.
"God is physically present in the Garden of Eden.... can they see the deity? The biblical narration is silent on the issue; it makes clear however, that God can see them - or, in this instance, was expecting to see them but could not because they were hiding. So God used his voice to reach them....
"....A trialogue ensues.... it suggests that the Adam could talk from the very beginning.... The Lord God then declares the punishment [for eating of the forbidden fruit]....
"....By this time the encounter is clearly face-to-face, for now the Lord God not only makes skin-coats for Adam and his wife, but also clothes them with the coats.... the biblical passage cannot be treated as only symbolical. It clearly lets us know that in the beginning, when the Adam was in the Garden of Eden, humans encountered their Creator face-to-face.
"Now, unexpectedly, God gets worried. Speaking again to unnamed colleagues, Yahweh Elohim expresses his concern that "now that the Adam has become as one of us, to know good and evil, what if he shall put forth his hand and also take of the Tree of Life, and eat, and live forever?"
"....The decision to create The Adam stems from a suggestion to fashion him "in the image and after the likeness" of the divine creators. The resulting being, the handiwork of the Elohim, is brought forth "in the image of Elohim." And now, having eaten the fruit of Knowing, Man has become godlike in one more crucial respect. Looking at it from the view point of the deity, "The Adam has become as one of us" except for Immortality. And so the other unnamed colleagues of Yahweh concur in the decision to expel Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden, placing Cherubim with a "revolving flaming sword" to block the humans’ way back if they ever tried.
"Thus did Man’s very creator decree Man’s mortality. But Man undaunted, has searched for immortality ever since through the medium of Divine Encounters.
"Is this yearning for Encounters based on a recollection of real happenings, or an illusionary search based on mere myths? How much of the biblical tale is fact, how much fiction?
"....The veracity of the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) - be it its tales of Creation, of the Deluge and Noah’s Ark, of the Patriarchs, of the Exodus - has come into doubting criticism in the nineteenth century. Much of that skepticism and disbelief has been muted and countered by archaeological discoveries and increasingly validated the biblical record and data in an ever-receding order - from the near past to the earlier times, carrying the corroboration farther and farther back through historical times to prehistorical ones....
"....The archaeologists’ spades not only verified the existence of Shine’ar/Sumer. The finds also brought to light ancient texts from Mesopotamia that paralleled the biblical tales of Creation and the Deluge....
"....History, as the great scholar Samuel N. Kramer has so excellently expounded in his 1959 book of that title, Begins at Sumer.
"It all began, we learn from the various texts, a very long time ago, with the splashing down in the waters of the Persian Gulf or the Arabian Sea of a group of fifty ANUNNAKI - a term literally meaning "Those Who from Heaven to Earth Came...." Other settlements followed in pursuit of the visitors’ mission: Obtaining gold by distilling the water of the Persian Gulf - gold needed urgently back on the home planet of the Anunnaki so that their dwindling atmosphere could be protected by a shield of suspended gold particles....
"....The evidence presented and analyzed by us in books I - V of The Earth Chronicles series and the companion book Genesis Revisited, indicated a vast elliptical orbit for Nibiru that lasts 3,600 Earth-years, a period called SAR in Sumerian....
"....Therein , in the Sars, lies the secret to the apparent immortality of the ancient "gods...." The orbit of Nibiru lasts 3,600 Earth-years; but for those who live on Nibiru, that amounts to only one of their years.... in the eyes of the Earthlings (for that, literally, is what Adam - "He of Earth" - meant in Hebrew), the life cycles of the Anunnaki were such that, in human terms, they were immortal for all practical purposes.
"....Man, The Adam, was not yet on Earth when the Anunnaki arrived. For forty Sars the Anunnaki who were sent to the Abzu toiled mining the gold; but then they mutinied.
"....Enki, the scientist, had a solution. Let us create a Primitive Worker, he said, that will take over the backbreaking toil. The other leaders of the Anunnaki present wondered: How can it be done, how can an Adamu be created? To which Enki gave this answer:
The creature whose name you uttered
it exists!
"He found the "creature" - a hominid, the product of evolution on Earth - in southeast Africa, "above the Abzu." All that we need to do to make it an intelligent worker, Enki added, was to:
Bind upon it the image of the gods.
"The assembled gods - the Anunnaki leaders - agreed enthusiastically....
"....In Chapter 1 of Genesis the discussions that led to this decision is summed up in one verse: "And Elohim said, Let us make the Adam in our image, after our likeness."
Mr. Sitchin goes through the process that was used to create the worker, which readers may find in his previous books.
"....In ancient Egypt, where the gods were called Neteru ("Guardians") and identified by the hieroglyphic symbol of a mining axe, the act of creating the first Man out of clay was attributed to the ram-headed god Khnemu ("He who joins"), of who the texts said that he was "the maker of men . . . the father who was in the beginning." Egyptian artists too, as the Sumerians before them, depicted pictorially the moment of the First Encounter; it showed Khnemu holding up the newly created being, assisted by his son Thoth (the god of science and medicine).
"....But, like any hybrid.... (The Adam, male and female) the "Mixed Ones" could not procreate. The biblical tale of how the new being acquired "Knowing," the ability to procreate in the biblical terminology covers with an allegorical veneer the second act of genetic engineering. The principal actor in the dramatic development is neither Yahweh-Elohim nor the created Adam and Eve but the Serpent, the instigator of the crucial biological change....
"....Indeed, the frequent Sumerian symbol for Enki was that of a serpent.... As we shall show later on, Enki’s use of genetic engineering in the Garden of Eden also led to the double helix motif in Tree of Life depictions....
"....As we trace these double and triple meanings of Enki’s epithets (Serpent-copper-healing-genetics), it behooves to recall the biblical tale of the plague that befell the Israelites during their wanderings in the Sinai wilderness: it stopped after Moses had made a "copper serpent" and held it up to summon divine help.
"It is nothing short of mind-boggling to realize that this second Divine Encounter, when Humankind was given the ability to procreate, was also captured for us by ancient "photographers" - artists who carved the scene in reverse on the small stone cylinders, images that were seen in positive after the seal was rolled in wet clay.
Mr. Sitchin also mentions depictions of Enki with his symbolic epithets.
"....All these texts and depictions, augmenting the biblical narrative, have thus combined to paint a detailed picture, a course of events with identifiable principal participants, in the saga of Divine Encounters. Nevertheless, scholars by and large persist in lumping all such evidence as "mythology." To them the tale of events in the Garden of Eden is just a myth, an imaginary allegory taking place in a nonexistent place.
"An interesting light is shed on the "Geography of Creation" (to coin a term) and, consequently on the initial Divine Encounters, by the Book of Jubilees. Composed in Jerusalem during the time of the Second Temple, it was known in those centuries as The Testament of Moses, because it began by answering the question, How could Humanity know about those early events that even preceded the creation of Humankind? The answer was that it was all revealed to Moses on Mount Sinai, when an Angel of the divine Presence dictated it to Moses by the Lord’s command. The name Book of Jubilees, applied to the work by its Greek translators, stems from the chronological structure of the book, which is based on a count of the years by "jubilees" whose years are called "days" and "weeks."
"....The Book of Jubilees, using the enigmatic count of "days," states that Adam was brought by the angels into the Garden of Eden only "after Adam had completed forty days in the land where he had been created"; and "his wife they brought in on the eightieth day." Adam and Eve, in other words, were brought into being elsewhere.
"The Book of Jubilees, dealing with the expulsion from Eden later on, provides another morsel of valuable information. It informs us that "Adam and his wife went forth from the Garden of Eden, and they dwelt in the Land of Nativity, the land of their creation." In other words from the Edin they went back to the Abzu, in southeastern Africa. Only there, in the second Jubilee, did Adam "know" his wife Eve and "in the third week in the second jubilee she gave birth to Cain, and in the fourth she gave birth to Abel, and in the fifth she gave birth to a daughter, Awan." (The Bible states that Adam and Eve had thereafter other sons and daughters; noncanonical books say they numbered sixty-three in all).
"Such a sequence of events, that places the start of Humankind’s proliferation from a single primordial mother in the Mesopotamian Eden but back in the Abzu, in southeastern Africa, is now fully corroborated by scientific discoveries that have led to the "Out of Africa" theories regarding the origin and spread on Humankind. Not only finds of fossil remains of the earliest hominids, but also genetic evidence of the final line of Homo sapiens, confirms southeast Africa as the place where Humankind originated.
Mr. Sitchin gives at this point a thorough explanation of the plausible location of Eden, which the reader may view on previous books as well; then he continues:
"Confirmation of southern Mesopotamia, ancient Sumer as the E.DIN, the original biblical Eden does more than create a geographic congruency between the Sumerian texts and the biblical narrative. It also identifies the group with whom Humankind had Divine Encounters. The E.DIN was the abode ("E") of the DIN ("The Righteous/Divine Ones"). Their full title was DIN.GIR, meaning "The Righteous Ones of the Rocketships," and was written pictrographically as a two stage rocket whose command module could separate for landing. As the script evolved from pictographic to the wedgelike cuneiform the pictograph was changed by a star symbol meaning "Heavenly Ones"; later on, in Assyria and Babylon, the symbol was simplified to crossed wedges and its reading in the Akkadian language, changed to Ilu - "The Lofty Ones."
"The Mesopotamian Creation texts provide not just the answer to the puzzle of who were the several deities involved in the creation of The Adam, causing the Bible to employ the plural Elohim ("The Divine Ones") in a monotheistic version of the events and to retain the "us" in " Let us make Man in our image and after our likeness"; they also provide the background for this achievement.
"The evidence leaves little room for doubting that the Elohim of Genesis were the Sumerian DIN.GIR. It was to them that the feat of creating The Adam was attributed, and it was their diverse (and often antagonistic) leaders - Enki, Enlil, Ninmah - who were the "us" whom the first Homo sapiens first encountered.
"The expulsion from the Garden of Eden brought to an end the first chapter in this relationship. Losing Paradise but gaining knowledge and the ability to procreate, Humankind was henceforth destined to be bonded with Earth -
In the sweat of thy brow
shalt thou eat bread,
until your return to the earth,
for from it was thou taken.
For thou art earthdust
and unto earthdust thou shalt return.
"But that is not how Humankind saw its destiny. Being created in the image, after the likeness, and with the genes of Dingir/Elohim, it saw itself part of the heavens - the other planets, the stars, the universe. It strives to join them in their celestial abode, to gain their immortality. To do so, the ancient texts tell us, Man has continued to seek Divine Encounters without weapon-bearing Cherubim blocking the way.
Return
Chapter Two
WHEN PARADISE WAS LOST
"....The Expulsion was only the start of a new phase in that relationship that can be characterized as hide-and-seek, in which direct encounters become rare and visions or dreams become divine devices.
"The beginning of this post-Paradise relationship was far from auspicious; it was, in fact, a most tragic one. Unintentionally it brought about the emergence of new humans, Homo sapiens sapiens. And as it turned out, both the tragedy and its unexpected consequence planted the seeds of divine disillusionment with Humankind.
Mr. Sitchin relates here the incident of Abel-Cain, the sons of Adam and Eve, according to the Book of Genesis; he then continues:
"What was this "mark of Cain"? The Bible does not say, and countless guesses are just that - guesses. Our own guess (in the Lost Realms) was that the mark might have been a genetic change, such as depriving the line of Cain of facial hair - a mark that would be immediately obvious to whoever shall find them. Since this is a mark of recognition of Amerindians, we have suggested that since Cain "went away from the presence of Yahweh and resided in the Land of Nod, East of Eden," his wanderings took him and his offspring farther into Asia and the Far East, in time crossing the Pacific to settle in Mesoamerica....
"....Whatever the destination of Cain or the nature of the mark were, it is clear that this final act in the Cain-Abel drama required a direct Divine Encounter, a close contact between the deity and Cain so that the "mark" could be emplaced.
"....To find answers regarding those early times, we have to fish for information in the extra-biblical books, of which the Book of Jubilees is one. Called by scholars Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament, they include the Book of Adam and Eve that survived in several translated versions ranging from Armenian and Slavonic to Syriac, Arabic, and Ethiopic (but not the original Hebrew).
"....Since the death of Adam was the first natural passing of a mortal, Eve and Seth knew not what to do. They took the dying Adam and carried him to the "region of Paradise," and there sat at the Gates of Paradise until Adam’s soul departed from his body. They sat bewildered, mourning and crying. Then the Sun and Moon and the stars darkened "the heavens opened" and Eve saw celestial visions. Raising her eyes she saw "coming from the heavens a chariot of light, born by four bright eagles. And she heard the Lord instruct the angels Michael and Uriel to bring linen clothes and shroud Adam as well as Abel (who has not yet been buried); so were Adam and Abel consecrated for burial, then the two of them were carried by the angels [messengers] and buried, "according to the commandment of God, in the place where the Lord obtained the soildust" for the creation of Adam.
"There is a wealth of pertinent information in this tale....
"....In the case of prophetic dreams (of which more later) such a throwback in time would only serve to reinforce the fact that such dreams have been indeed deemed an undisputed channel between the deities and humans throughout recorded history.
"....The existence of pictorial depictions from that far back, in prehistory [preceding the Deluge] [(that had occurred, by our calculations, some 13,000 years ago)] is no secret. What is virtually a secret is the fact, that besides animals, and some human figures, those drawings and paintings also depicted what we nowadays call UFOs.
"We refer to what is known as Cave Art, the many drawings found in caves in Europe where Cro-Magnon Man made his home. Such "decorated-caves" as scholars call them have been found especially in the southwest of France and the north of Spain.... they created astoundingly beautiful works of art. Occasionally depicting humans as hunters, and sometimes their hunting weapons.... the depictions by and large are those of Ice Age animals: bison, reindeer, ibexes, horses, oxen, cows, felines, and here and there also fish and birds. There is no doubt that the anonymous artists painted what they had actually seen. Timewise they span millennia from about 30,000 to 13,000 years ago.
"....The inclination to view the Cave Art as religious art also stems from the plastic finds. These consist mainly of "Venus" figurines - statuettes of females known as the Willendorf Venus (image right) whose date is approximately 23000 B.C. Since the artists could also render the female shape perfectly naturally.... it is believed that the ones with exaggerated reproductive parts were intended to symbolize or seek - "pray for" - fertility; so that while the natural ones represented "Eves," the exaggerated ones ("Venuses") expressed veneration of a goddess.
"....Merlin Stone, [among others on the book] in his book When God Was a Woman considered the phenomenon "dawn of a Stone Age Garden of Eden" and linked the worship of a Mother Goddess to the later goddesses of the Sumerian pantheon. One of the nicknames of Ninmah, who had assisted Enki in the creation of Man, was Mammi; there is no doubt that it was the origin of the word for "mother" in almost all languages. That she was revered already some 30,000 years ago is no wonder - for the Anunnaki had been on Earth for far longer, with Ninmah/Mammi among them.
"The question is, though, how did Stone Age Man, more specifically Cro-Magnon Man, know of the existence of these "gods"?
"Here, we believe, come into play another type of drawings found in those Stone Age caves. If they are mentioned at all (which is rarely), they are referred to as "markings." But these were not scratches or incoherent lines. These "markings" depict well-defined shapes - shapes of objects that, nowadays are referred as UFOs . . .
"....Since all the other depictions in the decorated caves are of animals, etc., actually seen and most accurately rendered by the cave artists, there is no reason to assume that in the case of the "markings" they depicted objects that were abstract imaginings. If the depictions are of flying objects, then the artists must have actually seen them.
"Thanks to those artists and their handiwork, we can rest assure that when Adam and Eve - in pre-Diluvial times - claimed to have seen "celestial chariots," they were recording fact, not fiction.
"....We have already examined such sources in respect to the creation of the Adam and of Eve and the Garden of Eden. Let us now examine the Cain-Abel tragedy. Why did the too feel obliged to offer the first fruits or yearlings to Yahweh, why did he pay heed only to the offering of Abel, the shepherd, and why did the Lord then rush to appease Cain by promising him that he, Cain would rule over Able?
"This answers lie in a realization that, as in the tale of creation, the biblical version compresses more than one Sumerian deity into a single, monotheistic one.
"Sumerian texts include two that deal with disputes and conflicts between farming and shepherding. They both hold the key to an understanding of what had happened by going back to a time before of domestication of either grains or cattle, a "time when grains had not yet been brought forth, had not yet vegetated . . . when a lamb had not yet been dropped, there was no she-goat." But the "black-headed people" had already been fashioned and placed in the Edin, so the Anunnaki decided to give to NAM.LU.GAL.LU - "Civilized Mankind" - the knowledge of and tools for "the tilling of the land" and the "keeping of sheep"; not however, for the sake of Mankind but " for the sake of the gods," to assure their satiation.
"The task of bringing forth the two forms of domestication fell to Enki and Enlil....
"....After an initial idyllic period, Lahar and Anshan ("grains" and "woolly cattle") began to quarrel. A text named by scholars The Myth of Cattle and Grain reveals that in spite of the effort to separate the two by "establishing a house," a settled way of life, for Anshan (the farmer) and putting up sheepfolds in the grasing lands for Lahar (the shepherd) and in spite of the abundant crops and bountiful sheepfolds, the two began to quarrel. The quarrel began as the two offered these abundances to the "storehouse of the gods." At first each just extolled his own achievements and belittled those of the other. But the argument became so volatile, that both Enlil and Enki had to intervene. According to the Sumerian text, they declared Anshan - the farmer - the more surpassing.
"More explicit in its choice between the two food producers and two ways of life is a text known as The Dispute Between Emesh and Enten, in which the two come to Enlil for a decision as to who of them is the more important. Emesh is the one who "made wide stalls and sheepfolds"; Enten, who dug canals to water the lands, asserts that he is the "farmer of the gods." Bringing their offerings to Enlil, each seeks to be granted primacy. Enten boasts how he made "farm touch farm," his irrigation canals "brought water in abundance," how he "made grain increase in the furrows" and he "heaped high in the granaries." Emesh points out that he "made the ewe give birth to the lamb, the goat to give birth to the kid, cow and calf to multiply, fat and milk to increase," and also how he obtained eggs from nests made for the birds and caught fish from the sea.
"But Enlil rejects the pleas of Emesh, even repriminds him: "How could you compare yourself to your brother Enten!" he tells him, for it is Enten "who is in charge of the life-producing waters of all the lands." And water spells life, growth, abundance.
"....It is noteworthy that in the above quoted lines Enlil calls Emesh a brother of Enten - the same relationship as that between Cain and Abel. This and other similarities between the Sumerian and biblical tales indicate that the former were the inspiration for the latter. The preference of the farmer over the shepherd by Enlil can be traced to the fact that he was the one to introduce farming while Enki accounted for the domestication of livestock.
"....All in all, there can be little doubt that the Cain-Abel rivalry reflected a rivalry between the two divine brothers. It flared up from time to time....
"....A question rarely asked is, where did Cain obtained the very notion of killing? In the Garden of Eden Adam and Eve were vegetarians, eating only fruits of the trees. No animal was slaughtered by them. Away from the Garden there were only four humans, none of who has yet died (and certainly not as result of foul play). In such circumstances, what made Cain "come upon his brother Abel and kill him"?
"The answer, it seems, lies not among men but among the gods. Just as the rivalry between the human brothers reflected a rivalry between the divine brothers, so did the killing of one human by another emulated the killing of one "god" by another. Not of Enki by Enlil or vice versa - their rivalry never reached such vehemence - but still the killing of one leader of the Anunnaki by another.
"The tale is well documented in Sumerian literature. Scholars call it The Myth of Zu.... [Ninurta, the foremost of Enlil carried out the sentence].
"....Sumerian texts, the origin of and inspiration for the tales of Genesis, not only fill the bare-bones biblical versions with details, they also provide the background for understanding the events. One more aspect of the human experience this far can be explained by the divine encounters. The sins of Adam/Eve and of Cain are punished by nothing more severe than Expulsion. That too appears to be an application of an Anunnaki form of punishment to the created humans. It was once meted to Enlil himself, who "date-raped" a young Anunnaki nurse (who in the end became his wife).
"By combining the biblical and Sumerian data, we are now in a position to put the record of Mankind’s beginnings in a time frame supported by modern science.
"....A point that is usually ignored, but which we find highly significant, is that all through the narratives concerning Man’s creation, the Garden of Eden episode, and - most intriguing - in the story of the birth of Cain and Abel, the Bible refers to the humans as THE Adam, a generic term defining a certain species. Only in chapter 5 of Genesis, that begins with the words "This is the book of the genealogies of Adam," does the Bible drop the "the." It is only then that it starts to deal with a specific forefather of the human generations; but significantly, this listings omits Cain and Able, and proceeds from the person called Adam straight onto his son Seth, the father of Enosh. And it is only for Seth’s son Enosh that the Hebrew term meaning "human being" is employed; for that is what Enosh meant: "He who is human." To this day the Hebrew word for "Humankind" is Enoshut, "that which is like, that which stems from, Enosh."
"....whom the Bible considers the real progenitor of Humankind as it came to be in the ancient Near East.
"....It is in respect to Enosh that the Bible states (Genesis 4:26) that it was in his time that Humankind "began to call upon the name of Yahweh." It must have been an important development, a new phase in Humankind’s history, for the Book of Jubilees states in almost identical words that it was Enosh "who began to call on the name of the Lord on Earth." Man had discovered God!
"Who was this new human, "Enosh-man," from a scientific point of view?
"....Was he [Enosh] the progenitor of what we call Neanderthal Man, the first true Homo sapiens? Or was he already the ancestor of Cro-Magnon Man, the first true Homo sapiens sapiens that still walks the Earth as the current human beings? Cro-Magnon Man (so named after the site in France where his skeletal remains were found) appeared in Europe some 35,000 years ago, replacing there the Neanderthal Man (so named after the discovery site in Germany) who can be traced there to 100,000 years ago.... caves in Israel reveal Neanderthals were migrating through the Near East at least some 115,000 years ago, and Cro-Magnons had dwelt in the area already 92,000 years ago. Where do The Adam and Eve, the first created humans, and Adam and Eve, the progenitors of Seth and Enosh, fit into all that? What light do the Sumerian King Lists and the Bible shed on the issue, and how does it all correlate to modern scientific discoveries?
"....The genetic markers for Homo sapiens, first studied through the Mitochondrial DNA that is passed by the female alone, and then through studies of Nuclear DNA that is inherited from both parents.... indicate that we all stem from a single "Eve" that lived in southeast Africa between 200,000 to 250,000 years ago. Studies released in May 1995 of the Y chromosome indicate a single "Adam" ancestor some 270,000 years ago.
"The Sumerian data, we have concluded, places the creation of The Adam at about 290,000 years ago - well within the time scales for the two progenitors that modern science now suggests. How long the stay at the Garden of Eden, the attainment of the ability to procreate, the expulsion back to southeast Africa, and the Cain-Abel birth had taken place, the ancient texts do not state. Fifty thousand years? Whatever the exact time lapse, it seems evident that the "Eve" who was back in southeast Africa, bearing offspring to the Adam, fits well chronologically with the current scientific data.
"With those early humans gone from the stage, the time came for the specific Adam and his line to appear.
Mr. Sitchin includes in his book an interesting calculation of time from Adam (the specific individual) to the Deluge.
"Moreover, as we have shown earlier in this chapter, THE Adam and the person Adam were not one and the same. First there was the interlude in the Garden of Eden, then the Expulsion. How long that interlude lasted, the Bible does not say.
"....The solution offered here by us leads to astounding results. It places the Adam-Seth-Enosh line right in the time slot when Neanderthals and then Cro-Magnons passed through the Lands of the Bible as they spread toward Asia and Europe. It means that the individual (not the generic) Adam was the biblical Man whom we term Neanderthal, and that Enosh, whose name meant "Human" was the biblical term for what we call Cro-Magnon - the first Homo sapiens sapiens, indeed the forefather of Enoshut, today’s humanity.
"It was then, the Bible asserts, that humanity "began to call upon the name of Yahweh." Man was ready for renewed Divine Encounters; and some that then occurred were truly astounding
Return
Chapter Three
THE THREE WHO TO HEAVEN ASCENDED
"....All three require accepting as truthful the Sumerian assertion that there have been a developed civilization before the Deluge, one that was wiped out and buried under millions of tons of mud by the avalanche of water that engulfed Mesopotamia. This Sumerian assertion was not doubted by later generations.... The Bible too, describes an advanced civilization with cities, crafts, and arts in respect of the line of Cain. Though no such details are provided in respect to the line of Seth, the very tale of Noah and the construction of the ark implies a state of affairs where people could already build seagoing vessels.
"That such civilization expressed itself in urban centers in Mesopotamia (the core of such advances) but in only magnificent artistry among the European branch of Cro-Magnons is quite possible. As a matter of fact, some of the images painted or drawn by the cave artists depict inexplicable structures or objects. They become meaningful if one accepts the possibility that Cro-Magnons had seen (or perhaps even travelled by) masted seagoing vessels - a possibility that could explain how Man crossed the two oceans 20,000 or even 30,000 years ago to reach America from the Old World.
"....The first one is the tale recounted in what scholars call The Legend of Adapa. An intriguing aspect of the tale is that, prior to the heavenly ascent, Adapa was involved in an involuntary sea crossing to an unknown land because his boat was blown off course - an episode that is perhaps reflected in the recollections of early Americans and in the Cro-Magnons cave depictions.
"Adapa, according to the ancient text, was a protégé of Enki. Allowed to live in Enki’s city Eridu (the very first settlement of the Anunnaki on Earth), "daily he attended the sanctuary of Eridu." Choosing him to become "as a model of men," Enki (in this text called by his initial epithet-name, E.A) "gave him wisdom, but did not give him eternal life." It is not just the similarity between the names Adapa and Adam, but also this statement, that led various scholars to see in the ancient tale of Adapa the forerunner (or inspiration for) the tale of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, who were allowed to eat of the Tree of Knowing but not of the Tree of Life....
"....One day "at the holy quay, the Quay of the New Moon" (the Moon was then the celestial body associated with Ea/Enki) "he boarded the sailboat," perhaps intending to just sail to catch fish. But then calamity struck....
".... a major storm, "the South Wind, began to blow. It apparently unexpectedly changed direction, and instead of blowing from the sea toward land it blew toward the open ocean. For seven days the storm blew, carrying Adapa to an unknown distant region. There, stranded, "at the place where is the home of the fishes, he took up a residence." We are not told how long he was stranded at that southern location, not how he was finally rescued.
"....In his heavenly abode, according to the tale, Anu wondered why the South Wind "has not blown toward the land for seven days." His vizier Ilabrat answered him that it was because "Adapa, offspring of Ea, had broken the wing of the South Wind." Perplexed, Anu ("rising from his throne") said, "Let them fetch him hither!"
""At that, Ea, he who knows what pertains to Heaven," took charge of the preparations for the celestial journey. He made Adapa wear his hair unkempt, and clothed him in mourning garb." He then gave Adapa the following advice:
You are about to go before Anu, the king;
The road to heaven you will be taking.
When you approach the gate of Anu
the gods Dumuzi and Gizzida
at the gate of Anu will be standing.
When they see you, they will ask you:
"Man, on account of whom do you look thus,
for whom so you wear mourning garb?"
"To this question, Ea instructed Adapa, you must give the following answer: "Two gods have vanished from our land, that is why I am thus." When they question you who the two gods were, Ea continued, you must say, "Dumuzi and Gizzida they are." And, since the two gods whose names you tell as being the vanished gods for whom you mourn will be the very same two who guard the gate of Anu, Ea explained, "They will glance at each other, and laugh a lot, and will speak to Anu a good word about you."
As you stand before Anu
they will offer you bread;
it is Death, do not eat!
They will offer you water;
it is Death, do not drink!
They will offer you a garment;
put it on.
They will offer you oil;
anoint yourself with it!
"You must not neglect these instructions," Ea cautioned Adapa; "to that which I have spoken, hold fast!"
"Soon thereafter the emissary of Anu arrived. Anu, he said, gave the following instructions: "Adapa, he who broke the South Wind’s wing - bring him to me!" And so speaking,
He made Adapa take the way to heaven,
and to heaven he ascended
And it happened as Enki said it would....
"....Evidently Anu had such suspicions right then and there, for having heard Adapa’s tale he was puzzled, and asked:
Why did Ea to an unworthy human
disclose the way of heaven
and the plans of Earth -
rendering him distinguished,
making a Shem for him?
"And, continuing such rhetorical questions, Anu asked: "As for us, what shall we do about him?"
"....Adapa’s peculiar behavior amazed Anu. "Anu looked at him, and laughed at him." "Come now, Adapa," Anu said, "why did you not eat, why did you not drink?" To which Adapa responded, "Ea, my master, commanded me, ’you shall not eat, you shall not drink.’"
"When Anu heard this, wrath filled his heart." He dispatched an emissary, "one who knows the thoughts of the great Anunnaki," to discuss the matter with the lord Ea. The emissary.... repeated the events in Heaven word for word. The tablet then becomes too damaged and illegible, so that we do not know Ea’s explanations for his odd instructions (that were, obviously, intended to sustain his decision to give Adapa knowledge but not immortality).
"No matter how the discussion ended, Anu decided to send Adapa back to Earth, and since Adapa used the oil to anoint himself, Anu decreed that back in Eridu, Adapa’s destiny will be to start a line of priests who will be adept at curing diseases. On the way back,
Adapa, from the horizon of heaven
to the zenith of heaven cast a glance;
and he saw its awesomeness.
"The interesting question, what was the transportation by which Adapa had made the round-trip, seeing in the process the awesome expanse of the heavens, is answered by the ancient text only indirectly, when Anu wonders out loud why did Ea "make a Shem" for Adapa. This Akkadian word is usually translated "name." But as we have elaborated in The 12th Planet, the term (MU in Sumerian) obtained this meaning from the shape of the stones erected to "commemorate the name " of a king - a shape that emulated the pointed skychambers of the Anunnaki. What Anu wondered, then, was, Why did Ea provide a skyrocket for Adapa?
"Mesopotamian depictions show "Eaglemen" - Anunnaki astronauts in their dress uniforms - flanking and saluting a rocketlike Shem. Another depiction shows two such "Eaglemen" guarding the gateway of Anu (illustrating perhaps the gods Dumuzi and Gizzida of the Adapa tale). The gate’s lintel is decorated with the emblem of the winged Disc, the celestial symbol of Nibiru, which establishes where the gate was....
"....Tablets that cataloged literary works kept on shelves of the library of Ashurbanipal in Nineveh mention, in their undamaged portions, at least two "books" relating to Adapa’s knowledge....
"....One other book (i.e. a set of tablets) by Adapa that was listed on the shelves of the library of Nineveh was titled "Celestialship which to the Sage of Anu, Adapa [was given]." The Legend of Adapa texts repeatedly refer to the fact that Adapa was shown "the ways of heaven," enabling him to travel from Earth to the heavenly abode of Anu. The implication that Adapa was shown a celestial route map ought to be taken as based on fact, for - incredibly - at least one such route map has been found. It is depicted on a clay disc, undoubtedly a copy of an earlier artifact, that was also discovered in the ruins of the royal library of Nineveh and that is now kept in the British Museum in London. Divided into eight segments, it depicted (as evident from the undamaged portions), precise geometric shapes (some, such as an ellipse, unknown from other ancient artifacts), arrows, and accompanying notations in Akkadian that referred to various planets, stars, and constellations. Of particular interest is an almost-intact segment whose notations.... of space flight instructions identify it as the Route of Enlil from a mountainous planet (Nibiru) to Earth. Beyond Earth’s skies (the "Way of Enlil") lie four celestial bodies (which other texts identify as Sun, Moon, Mercury, and Venus). In between, the flight passes by seven planets.
"....Significant, too, though in other respects, is the fact that the route passes between the planets named in Sumerian DIL.GAN (Jupiter) and APIN (Mars). Mesopotamian astronomical texts referred to Mars as the planet "where the right course is set," when a turn is made as the drawing on the segment indicates. In Genesis Revisited we have presented considerable ancient and modern evidence in support of a conclusion that an ancient space base had existed on Mars.
"The missing text or the damaged portions of Adapa Legend might have shed light on a puzzling aspect of the tale: If Ea foresaw all that would happen at the heavenly abode, what was the purpose of scheming to send Adapa aloft if, in the end, he was to be deprived of Eternal Life?
"Tales from post-Diluvial times (such as that of Gilgamesh) indicate that offspring of human and a god (or goddess) deemed themselves worthy of Immortality, and went to great lengths to join the gods to attain that. Was Adapa such a "demigod," and did he nag Ea to endow him with Immortality? The reference to Adapa as "offspring of Ea" is translated by some literally as "son of Ea," born to Enki by a human female. This would explain Ea’s scheme to pretend that Adapa’s wish is being granted, while in fact he maneuvered for the opposite result.
"In Sumerian times the "Sages of Eridu" were a class unto themselves, ancient savants of blessed memory. Their names and specialties were listed and recorded with great respect and reverence in countless texts.
"According to those sources, the sages of Eridu were seven in number.... The Assyrian text calls [Enoch] Utu-Abzu; Professor Borger concluded that he was the Assyrian "Enoch," because according to the biblical record, it was the seventh pre-Diluvial Patriarch, whom the Bible calls Enoch, who was taken by God to the heavenly abode.
"...."Enoch walked with the Elohim," and was taken aloft by Elohim." The Hebrew term, as we have shown, stood for DIN.GIR ["The Righteous Ones of the Rocketships"] in the Sumerian sources of Genesis. Thus it was the Anunnaki with whom Enoch "walked" and by whom he was taken aloft. This gloss, as well as scientific data that could come only from the Sumerian sexagesimal system of mathematics and the Sumerian calendar that had originated in Nippur, are clues to the ancient sources of compositions thanks to which we know much more about Enoch than the laconic biblical sentence.
".... According to the Book of Jubilees, Enoch spent his time by "writing down the condemnations and judgments of the world," on account of which "God brought the waters of the Flood upon all the land of Eden."
"Even greater detail is provided by the Pseudepigraphic Book of Enoch, in which the tale of Enoch is not part of the patriarchal tale but the principal object of a major work....
"....The Hebrew original of the Book of Enoch is lost, but had surely existed because fragments thereof, mixed in with an Aramaic dialect (Aramaic having become by then the language of common daily usage), have been found among the Dead Sea Scrolls. Widely quoted and translated into Greek and Latin, it was considered as holy scripture by nearly all the writers of the New Testament. With all that, the composition has survived mainly owing to much later translations into Ethiopic (known as "1Enoch") and Slavonic ("2 Enoch," sometimes called The Book of the Secrets of Enoch).
"The Book of Enoch describes in detail not one but two celestial journeys....
"....The Bible states that Enoch "walked with the Elohim" well before he was taken aloft; the Book of Enoch enlarges on that pre-ascend period. It describes Enoch as a scribe with prophetic powers....
Mr. Sitchin describes Enoch’s ascents in several paragraphs, it is astounding, the encounter with other celestial beings, his visions and his realities, his return to Earth and his final ascent:
"The second and final ascent of Enoch to Heaven, the scribe of the Book of Enoch stated at the book’s conclusion, took place exactly on the day and hour he was born, at age 365. [Mr. Sitchin explains at length the significance of this number as well].
"Was this tale of Enoch’s heavenly ascent(s) the equivalent of, or inspired by, the Sumerian tale of Adapa?
"Certain details that are included in both tales point in that direction. Two angels, paralleling the gods Dumuzi and Gizzida in the Adapa legend, bring the Earthling "before the face of the Lord." The visitor’s garments are changed from earthly ones to divine ones. He is anointed. And finally, he is given great knowledge that he writes down in "books." In both instances, the visitor writes what is being dictated to him. These details appear within a framework that without doubt establishes the Sumerian origins of the Enoch "legend."
"We have already pointed out that by ascribing Enoch’s Divine Encounters to the "Elohim," the biblical narrative divulged its Sumerian source. [Numerology and Planet system are again explained in the book].
"....(It is noteworthy that in Jewish medieval mysticism known as the Kaballah, the abode of God the Almighty is in the tenth Sefira, a "brilliance" or heavenly place, a Tenth Heaven. The Sefirot (plural) were usually depicted as concentric circles, often superimposed on the figure of Kadmon ("The Ancient One") the center of which is called Yesod ("Foundation"), the tenth Ketter ("Crown" of God the Most High). Beyond it stretches the Ein Soff - infinity, infinite space.)
"These are all definite links to the Sumerian sources. But whether it was the tale of Adapa that is reflected in the Enoch record is uncertain, for one can find more similarities between Enoch and a second pre-Diluvial Sumerian individual, EN.ME.DUR.ANNA ("Master of the Divine Tablets of the Heavenly Bond"), also known as EN.ME.DUR.AN.KI ("Master of the Divine Tablets of the Bond Heaven-Earth").
"....Enmeduranki was taken by two divine chaperons heavenward, to be taught a variety of sciences. Whereas in the case of Adapa the possibility (mentioned above) that he was a seventh (sage) is not absolute (some Mesopotamian sources list him as the first of Eridu’s seven sages), the seventh position of Enmeduranki is certain; hence the scholarly opinion that it was he who was the Sumerian equivalent of the biblical Enoch. He came from Sippar, where in pre-Diluvial times the Spaceport of the Anunnaki was located, with Utu ("Shamash" in later times), a grandson of Enlil, as its commander.
"....The text detailing the ascent and training of Enmeduranki was pieced together from fragments of tablets, mostly from the royal library in Nineveh, then collated and published in an edited version by W.G. Lambert ("Enmeduranki and Related Material" in the Journal of Cuneiform Studies). The basic source is the record of pre-Diluvial events inscribed on clay tablets by a Babylonian king in support of his claim to the throne because he was a "distant scion of kingship, seed preserved from before the Flood, offspring of Enmeduranki who ruled in Sippar....:
Enmeduranki was a prince in sippar,
beloved of Anu, Enlil and Ea.
Shamash in the Bright Temple
appointed him as priest.
Shamash and Adad [took him]
to the assembly [of the gods].
"....Having been taught the "secrets of Heaven and Earth," specifically including medicine and mathematics, Enmeduranki was returned to Sippar, with instructions to reveal to the populace his Divine Encounter and to make the knowledge available to Humankind by passing the secrets from one priestly generation to another, father to son....
"....According to this rendition of the heavenly ascent of Enmeduranki, his abode was in Sippar (the post-Diluvial "cult center" of Shamash), and it is there that he used the Divine Tablets to teach secret knowledge to his successor priests. This detail forges a link with the events of the Deluge, because according to Mesopotamian sources as also reported by Berossus.... the tablets containing the knowledge revealed to Mankind by the Anunnaki before the Deluge were buried for safekeeping in Sippar.
"In fact, the two tales - of the Sumerian Enmeduranki and of the biblical Enoch - contain even stronger links than that one to the Deluge. For, as we shall examine the story-behind-the-story, we shall come upon a sequence of events whose principal motivation was Divine Sex and whose culmination was a deliberate plan to eradicate Mankind.
Here are some links for you
http://www.xfacts.com/ancie-nt/
http://world-mysteries.com/p-ex_2.htm
http://www.sitchin.com/-
Name:sage •
Date: 03/24/07 20:52
A: well here is my opinion about the original post:
I believe that Jesus was an amaxing humanitarian and that if he had be around during a different time, he would have recognized as such.
I do not believe in the divinity of Jesus; that he was born of a virgin and god. The way he died doesn't interest me, because it doesn't change the fact that he died.
I don't believe in the existance on one all powerful and knowing god, and in turn I don't believe in the existance of satan. Tho I believe that there is something greater than me and I strive to be the best person I can because at the end of the day, it is me that must live with the choices I have made.
Name:roy •
Date: 03/25/07 12:57
A: Sage, There is a serious conflict and surrender in what you say. You say there is no god, and then say there is something greater than me . This something is called God.
You wrote: "I strive to be the best person I can because at the end of the day, it is me that must live with the choices I have made. "
Why do you bother to be a good person, noone will punish or reward you? Exploit all the environment to your egotistic purposes( what most Americans do) There is something makes you feel good about yourself, if you strive to be best person. This is called faith which causes peace whithin. Although you try to avoid the very nature of creation of yourself, your genes, soul which is designed by God makes you accept these simple emotions. In other words you avoid religion but you found religion by mental work.
The missing part in most people on earth, they cant coose a religion where they can trust. The blame does nopt lie in peoples hearts. It lies at the priests, rabbis, imams, or other religious supplementary writers. Nobody told them to invent religion. They did and as a result these false and diverted paths of jewish,christian, muslim tribesmans tradition replaced as religion.
As a result you find these days bishops who rape children who come for education. Rabbis, orderin killing innocent muslims, imams living under bigotry conditions.
Search for the truth you will find one day and reach your heart in despair in peace. Your heart will never be peaceful before reacing true understanding of God. We are designed that way. There is nothing we can do about it.
Name:Ulaw •
Date: 03/25/07 13:46
A: Roy said, "Why do you bother to be a good person, noone will punish or reward you?"
If you really believe that your faith is hollow.
Matthew 7:22-24 (New International Version)
22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
Name:roy •
Date: 03/25/07 16:07
A: PAT WROTE:
and all major religion such as Christian Jewish /Hebrew and Islam derives from that Sumerian culture and period.
ROY WROTE:
You partially accept the basic teaching of muslims with this sentence, that all religions are derived from same source namely İslam. What is Sumerians to with it? Antient gods interfere with your belief spoils eveything. However you are lacking the most important part which is paganism; idolatry.
Idol-worship is the only unforgivable sin, if maintained till death, 4:48.
Your priest Zechariah a palestanian christian who heard these three great religion from where brought up, has written his books and theory based on these Abraham faiths, as it is not easy to deny them.
PAT WROTE:
Thousands of cuneiform tablets and texts depicts a very high civilization and out
ways any other older text here on earth.
ROY WROTE:
What type of authors are this man Zecharia Sitchin, Velikovsky and Däniken,have deluded you and thousands others, from true path of any sects of conventional religion.
If you are not biased, you can easily see your mistake of belief in this sentence. “High civilization” in one hand “ there are people writing on “Stone tablets” on the other. Can you imagine, Bill Gates writing on Stone tablets his Vista, or Windows XP programmes? Where are the other high civilazation Stone tablets about chemistry, biology, medical research, art, music, paints, food recepies, garment sewing books, printing machines? How come there is no artifacts found as we may recognise from technological marvel in gravel they unearthed, no machine, no vehicle, no instrument but axes, knives? Cant you see the simple facts from where the “high knowledge ! ” written on, Stones from the cartoon “flingstones”.
They were simple beliefs of that time, partially to their gods, they believed as their creators, just as greek mithological stories, similarly written on Stones, and ornamented the libraries of their temples. For your information, a modern greek university professor–who studies ancient greeks, (like your Zecharia ) has decided to re-establish the plural gods ancient greek religion to be officially recognized. Demand their rights to held religious ceremonies at temples like Acropolis. (May be they will invite you and Zecharia too)
Why all the multi-gods idolatry hindus also like playing with Stone carvings when religion is in question? There is a false dead end to these faiths, just like egyptian pyramids. Thousands of man, millions of manhours were perished for nothing. Please dont be one of them. I invite you for the easy life and to your nature dictates to be; İslam (Abraham religion jewish, christian, muslim~most satisfying of them all). Dont force your nature, and dont try to live against it. It will be as similar to homosexuals, who want to change their nature. They really cant. The stages of it decorated with unhappiness. Can they bear children, which is impossible, can they feel as real man/ woman? Never.
In todays American society there are no atheists majority, there are people who believes in God but does not accept bible true from the first page to the last (as muslims also agree ), they want to trust to church but every church has some weak points to criticize, although many attend Sunday liturgy. They dont not know or bother how is true religion. Some of them like you whom I respect and Mr Cameron, has questions, want to learn the truth, searches, reads, thinks, does something about it, which is admirable.
The exploitation of fait is to such an extent in the US that there were the worst cases of suicide in groups by the followers of a religion in 1990s. There were another prophet who had 50 rolce royce sedans, luxurious living, until secretary fled with fortune. How do you protect yor children from those crooks? it was not protection or freedom, it is outright ridiculing peoples beliefs, exploiting them.
Please get to your senses, spend one tenth of your hours on the real religious books, If God may, you will reach the truth that calms your heart. Forget those fame/fortune/money hunters, who sees no wrong in diverting path of people into their dark labirents of fairy tales.
I expect all who is interested especially Pat to fulfill spiritual and material obligations ( about 3000 $ of the trip) and visit Mecca this december for 20 days for hajj ceremony. You may realise how benefits may happen to yourself. If you decide so we can meet there.
God says in Quran “It is my right upon all human who believes in Me to visit Mecca once in lifetime” this who is invited includes jews and one God christians too.
[ 3:96-97] The most important shrine established for the people is the one in Becca; a blessed beacon for all the people. In it are clear signs: the station of Abraham. Anyone who enters it shall be granted safe passage. THE PEOPLE OWE IT TO GOD THAT THEY SHALL OBSERVE HAJJ TO THIS SHRINE, WHEN THEY CAN AFFORD IT. As for those who disbelieve, GOD does not need anyone.
I reccommend you read from quranbrowser.com and have a free hard copy (excluding shipping) from the website:
cair.com/explorethequran/request.asp
By the way I can answers your thousands of critics about İslam only day by day basis, as much as I can do.
MISUNDERSTANDING
Women suppression/ dress code
PAT WROTE:
why your men are running around in shirts with short sleeves, tea shirts and in comfortable pants, while your women are running around with their black burke converted head to toes in a 200 degree Celsius weather.
ROY WROTE:
It is not recommended from Quran to dress extra cover up. Tradition and jealousy of men has caused the misconception that İslam dictates it.
FIRST RULE : THE BEST GARMENT
[7:26] "O children of Adam, we have provided you with garments to cover your bodies, as well as for luxury. But the best garment is the garment of righteousness. These are some of GOD's signs, that they may take heed."
This is the BASIC rule of DRESS CODE in the Quran. This is the first rule in WOMEN DRESS CODE in Islam (Submission).
SECOND RULE : COVER YOUR BOSOMS
The second rule can be found in 24:31. Here God orders the women to cover their bosoms whenever they dress up. But before quoting 24:31 let us review some crucial words that are always mentioned with this topic, namely "Hijab" and "Khimar"
THE WORD "HIJAB" in the QURAN
"Hijab" is the term used by many Muslims women to describe their head cover that may or may not include covering their face except their eyes, and sometimes covering also one eye. The Arabic word "Hijab" can be translated into veil or yashmak. Other meanings for the word "Hijab" include, screen, cover(ing), mantle, curtain, drapes, partition, division, divider.
Can we find the word "Hijab" in the Quran??
The word "Hijab" appeared in the Quran 7 times, five of them as "Hijab" and two times as "Hijaban," these are 7:46, 33:53, 38:32, 41:5, 42:51, 17:45 & 19:17.
None of these "Hijab" words are used in the Quran in reference to what the traditional Muslims call today (Hijab) as a dress code for the Muslim woman.
God knows that generations after Muhammed's death the Muslims will use the word "Hijab" to invent a dress code that He never authorized. God used the word "Hijab" ahead of them just as He used the word "Hadith" ahead of them.
Hijab in the Quran has nothing to do with the Muslim Women dress code.
"Hijab" or veil can be traced back to early civilizations. It can be found in early and late Roman and Greek art. The evidence can be seen in archeological discoveries whether in pottery fragments, paintings or recorded civil laws. In Greco-Roman culture, both women and men wore head covering in religious contexts. The tradition of wearing the veil (by women) and the headcover (by men) was then adopted by the Jews who wrote it in the Talmud (Talmud equals the Hadiths and Sunna, neither are the words of God) then the Christians adopted the same.
THIRD RULE : LENGTHEN YOUR GARMENTS
The first regulation of DRESS CODE for Muslim women is in 7:26, the second is in 24:31 and the third is in
33:59
"O prophet, tell your wives, your daughters, and the wives of the believers that they shall LENGTHEN their garments. Thus, they will be recognized and avoid being insulted. God is Forgiver, Most Merciful." 33:59
It is clear from the above verses that the DRESS CODE for the Muslim women (Submitters) according to the Quran is righteousness and modesty. God knows that this modesty will be understood differently in different communities and that is why He left it open to us to decide for ourselves. Decide, after righteousness what is modesty. Modesty for a woman who lives in New York may not be accepted by a woman who lives in Cairo Egypt. Modesty of a woman who lives in Cairo, Egypt may not be accepted by a woman who lives in Saudi Arabia.
A woman may relax her dress code in front of the four-year-old son of her brother but not as much in front of the 16 year old son.
"The women may relax (their dress code) around their fathers, their sons, their brothers, the sons of their brothers, the sons of their sisters, the other women, and their (female) servants. They shall reverence GOD. GOD witnesses all things." 33:55
"The elderly women who do not expect to get married commit nothing wrong by relaxing their dress code, provided they do not reveal too much of their bodies. To maintain modesty is better for them. GOD is Hearer, Knower." 24:60
CONCLUSION:
God, the Most Merciful, gave us three basic rules for the Dress Code for Women in Islam (Submission),
(1) The BEST garment is the garment of righteousness.
(2) Whenever you dress , cover your chest (bosoms).
(3) Lengthen your garment.
We have no obligation to follow but God's rules, just as His messenger did all the time. Innovations and fabrications that added thousands of rules to the women dress code are nothing but idol-worship and should be refused.
PAT WROTE:
Flying horse miracle of God. Oh Please Roy. Now that is a fairy tale
ROY WROTE:
Yes I believe. It is written in Quran, celebrated every year as the “mirac / mi’raj”
017:001
Glory to (God) Who did take His servant for a Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque (Mecca) to the farthest Mosque (Jerusalem~ almasjidi al-aqsa) , whose precincts We did bless, - in order that We might show him some of Our Signs: for He is the One Who heareth and seeth (all things).
We have a great belief in Mohammed (saas) has flew to Jarusalem from Mecca in one moment, from where He ascended to heaven on a SPECIAL VEHICLE ( a horse called “Burak”) .
The very first verse indicates that this Surah was revealed on the occasion of Mi`raj (Ascension). According to the Traditions and books on the life of the Holy Prophet, this event happened one year before Hijrah. Moreover, salat was prescribed in order to reform and purify their souls, as if to say, "This is the thing' which will produce in you those high qualities of character which are essential for everyone who intends to struggle in the righteous way Incidentally, we learn from Traditions that Mi'raj was the first occasion on which the five daily Prayers were prescribed to be offered at fixed times.
STAY WITH GOD, that is where the winners go.
May God bless us with His mercy and guidance.
Name:roy •
Date: 03/25/07 16:23
A: Ulaw said,
If you really believe that your faith is hallow.
Roy says,
Yes, I really think so, Including your book of bible, which is my book also, I believe all of them. May be I am a better christian than you are? who knows best? Did you capitalize on God to yourself?
Maybe observing christian faith more correct than pope and catholics does today? Can muslims be a branch of God only religion? Why not? Did you pay the price of earth and heaven which only belongs to you but noone else?
Who are evildoers not been recognised by Christ? You or any muslim? Do you have proof until doomsday?
Name:Pat •
Date: 03/25/07 17:56
A: Roy wrote:
Please get to your senses, spend one tenth of your hours on the real religious books, If God may, you will reach the truth that calms your heart. Forget those fame/fortune/money hunters, who sees no wrong in diverting path of people into their dark labirents of fairy tales.
Pat wrote:
Roy I do not care about your comments concerning what I should read. You seemed to be very limited into your thinking but boy do you like to preach toothers
You have no idea concerning what I have read of studied. Sitchin is just one thing and he makes a lot of sense to a lot of people.
There as been a lot of work and research into his work. He has written over 15 books which were translated in many languages around the world.
What have you accomplished that is so grateful beside reciting the Koran or playing with your beads? Before criticizing someone you should study or read about their work bozo before making some half ass stupid ignorant comment.
I am not here to convert you like you seem to be doing to me and others.
You want to pray and stick your ass in the air 5 times a day it is fine with me but do it at home or in a Mosque. I do not think that the Creative God Force needs all that veneration.
The reality is that Islam like the Christian Catholic Church wants to convert the whole world to their world and to a theocratic supremacy.
The upcoming extermination is Vatican Catholic church Zionists vs Islam. Crusades happened and is going on now. The battle is between you guys and through the process millions have and will perrish.
The pope, the black pope the Jesuits and Zionists including Islam are worst than all other religions and are evil at heart and at their foundation because it is not about God but about politics money power and control of the world.
I am tired of Catholic crusade past and present and Muslim Jihad run by religious nincompoops wanting people to live in old barbaric ways and believing stupidities.
I will not even bother commenting anymore on your posts.
Your are so and too brainwashed into you religion while I am doing the opposite.
It is impossible to share ideas with you. In the end you want to be right no matter what and you will not share ideas.
You should be reading why your own people are leaving Islam with the link below
Here are stories of people who have become disillusioned with Islam and have left it. Naturally their ID has been kept in secret and in some cases I have changed the names. This is necessary to protect them from becoming the target of Islamic persecution.
The penalty of apostasy in Islam is death..
Honestly I do not know why Muslims are coming to America, Canada and Europe in masses. If they are so happy living in their theoretical world run by pedophile Mullahs.
They should stick into the middle east.
I think that all Muslims should move back and stay in Iran, Iraq and other Muslim countries. They could live in their Muslim world and not impose their religion teachings and behaviors to others who do not think like them.
Why live in a western world while you could all be so better off in your own countries. Live in theocratic states if you want and your Koran barbaric ways.
I want to live in a country where religion and state is separate.
In society everybody is equal and must live by society with equal rules and laws.
You want religion you go to a Mosque, a synagogue, a temple or a church.
Your Islamic Koran religion is full of hate vengeances and submissiveness plus the fact that it is a pretty hypocritical religion.
Your religion is far from being merciful just like the catholic church Christianity both are to suppress people.
Check the sites of Muslims leaving Islam in a present world.
http://www.faithf-reedom.org/testimonials.htm-
Name:sage •
Date: 03/25/07 18:59
A: Roy.. you just demonstrated the very attitude I can't stand.
Just because I don't believe in one all powerful and mighty god, doesn't mean I don't believe in the existance of something greater. That something creator may be a Goddess, maybe its an alien life form, I can't tell you for certain, tho I myself believe in the creator and the mother goddess.
I strive to be the best person I can all the time, that is the point. I'm not a sheep looking for reward or punishment from my master, I am my own master. No one can be harder on me when I make mistakes, and I do not reward myself with nice things when I am good, I expect to do good things.
I most certainly DO NOT expoit this green earth for my own purposes, I would take insult to that except that you don't know me, so I'll explain. Nature is my faith, the culmination of all awe, wonder and power in and around me. I find peace in the river, the mountains and the sky, and I find inspiration in those same things. The rape of our earth is disgusting.
I have faith, lots of faith, just not in the same things you do. I have faith that my life will be long and healthy, and that I will do right by my children and my friends and family. I have faith (or more like I cross my fingers and hope for the best) in the greater good of mankind, that one day we may learn to exist together and appreciate our differences. I have lots of faith Roy, and if you are able to accept that my faith is just as valid and respectable as your faith, we can remain open to communication. There is not one true path to redemption, or whatever you want to call it. People find their paths and walk them with knowledge strength, they don't need other stoning them for their differences.
Everyone makes choices and everyone has to live with the consequence. One of the biggest problems in western culture is the alleviation of personal responsibilty. People blame their mistakes on the envrionments, and they are treated for it. Our societies are full of such people and I will do everything I can not to ever be one of them, nor will my children.
BTW I'm Canadian and damn proud of it!
Name:Pat •
Date: 03/26/07 13:38
A: Sage wrote:
I strive to be the best person I can all the time that is the point. I'm not a sheep looking for reward or punishment from my master, I am my own master. No one can be harder on me when I make mistakes, and I do not reward myself with nice things when I am good, I expect to do good things
............... Most certainly DO NOT exploit this green earth for my own purposes,
Nature is my faith, the culmination of all awe, wonder and power in and around me. I find peace in the river, the mountains and the sky, and I find inspiration in those same things
I have faith that my life will be long and healthy, and that I will do right by my children and my friends and family. I have faith (or more like I cross my fingers and hope for the best) in the greater good of mankind, that one day we may learn to exist together and appreciate our differences............................
Pat wrote:
Your words are a prayer of thanks and is all that is needed. If everyone would practice it including our politicians and religious leaders we would have peace on earth.
Recitations of the same litanies with beads and rituals to a stone statue, wooden cross serve absolutely no purposes.
Genuflections to priests. Bishops, crosses, altars or and putting you butt 5 times in the air reciting prayers serve absolutely no purposes.
No crusade no Jihad serve God purposes. All they do is serve men and politicians men that claim to be religious and in contact with God which they are not.
What would a powerful God Force Creator need that all that for? If a God Force exist all he needs is that we live in peace, appreciate each other and enjoy life nature and our world. What he needs is that we respect each other and do care and that we grow out of are old barbarian traditional ritual religious submissive ways to men.
Name:Pat •
Date: 03/26/07 14:36
A: Roy wrote:
If you are not biased, you can easily see your mistake of belief in this sentence. “High civilization” in one hand “ there are people writing on “Stone tablets” on the other. Can you imagine, Bill Gates writing on Stone tablets his Vista, or Windows XP programmes? Where are the other high civilazation Stone tablets about chemistry, biology, medical research, art, music, paints, food recepies, garment sewing books, printing machines? How come there is no artifacts found as we may recognise from technological marvel in gravel they unearthed, no machine, no vehicle, no instrument but axes, knives? Cant you see the simple facts from where the “high knowledge ! ” written on, Stones from the cartoon “flingstones”.
Pat wrote:
You are really ignorant and have only a one track Koran mind Sir. Here is a link to Sumerian artifacts. Please note that the Sumerian humans back then wrote and narrated their whole creation, evolution and what the Gods/ Aliens did back then.
They are depicting man evolution. The Jews the Christians the Mulsims and stories derived from that period.
I never said that the humans of the day possed that technology.
The Gods/aliens of the time had it for themselves and left with it and did not give it to humans.
On the contrary when God/aliens in the Garden Of Eden realize that that Adam and Eve were just like them the God/Aliens gets them thrown out of the Garden. If Adam and Eve reached and had access to the tree of Knowledge of good and evil (science good and bad) they would become like on of us. Meaning humans would become as powerful as their creators God/aliens.
They left humans and keep us the human descendant in ignorance and it was for us in due time to discover knowledge and science.
Compared to flying horses there is a lot of history and depiction of scientific technological information describe on the cuneiforms tablets.
Please also note that all language derives from that period too.
Instead of bashing it you should read about that period in man’s history a knowledge on thousands of cuneiform tablets predating 6000 BC. There is more on those tablets than in your Koran dating 1400 years ago.
By the way your Prophet Mohamed was a creation of the Vatican and the Bishop of North Africa Augustine.
Back then 560 AD The Vatican Catholic Church and official church or the Roman Empire desperately wanted Jerusalem because of its religious significance, but was blocked by the Jews.
Also a lot of Arabs were not converting to Catholicism so the concept of looking for an Arab prophet developed............
The Vatican had to create a weapon to eliminate both the Jews and the true Christian believers who refused to accept Roman Catholicism.
Lookng to North Africa, they saw the multitudes of Arabs as a source of manpower to do their dirty work. Some Arabs had become Roman Catholic, and could be used in reporting information to leaders in Rome.
Others were used in an underground spy network to carry out Rome's master plan to control the great multitudes of Arabs who rejected Catholicism.
When 'St Augustine' appeared on the scene, he knew what was going on. His monasteries served as bases to seek out and destroy Bible manuscripts owned by the true Christians.
"The Vatican wanted to create a messiah for the Arabs, someone they could raise up as a great leader, a man with charisma whom they could train, and eventually unite all the non-Catholic Arabs behind him, creating a mighty army that would ultimately capture Jerusalem for the pope.
A wealthy Arabian lady who was a faithful follower of the pope played a tremendous part in this drama.
She was a widow named Khadijah. She gave her wealth to the church and retired to a convent, but was given an assignment.
She was to find a brilliant young man who could be used by the Vatican to create a new religion and become the messiah for the children of Ishmael.
Khadijah had a cousin named Waraquah,, who was also a very faithful Roman Catholic and the Vatican placed him in a critical role as Muhammad's advisor.
He had tremendous influence on Muhammad.
'Teachers were sent to young Muhammad and he had intensive training.
Muhammad studied the works of St. Augustine which prepared him for his "great calling."
The Vatican had Catholic Arabs across North Africa spread the story of a great one who was about to rise up among the people and be the chosen one of their God.
'While Muhammad was being prepared, he was told that his enemies were the Jews and that the only true Christians were Roman Catholic. He was taught that others calling themselves Christians were actually wicked impostors and should be destroyed.
Many Muslims believe this.
'Muhammad began receiving "divine revelations" and his wife's Catholic cousin Waraquah helped interpret them.
From this came the Koran. In the fifth year of Muhammad's mission, persecution came against his followers because they refused to worship the idols in the Kaaba.
'Muhammad instructed some of them to flee to Abysinnia where Negus, the Roman Catholic king accepted them because Muhammad's views on the virgin Mary were so close to Roman Catholic doctrine.
These Muslims received protection from Catholic kings because of Muhammad's revelations.
'Muhammad later conquered Mecca and the Kaaba was cleared of idols.
History proves that before Islam came into existence, the Sabeans in Arabia worshiped the moon-god who was married to the sun-god. They gave birth to three goddesses who were worshipped throughout the Arab world as "Daughters of Allah" An idol excavated at Hazor in Palestine in 1950's shows Allah sitting on a throne with the crescent moon on his chest.
'Muhammad claimed he had a vision from Allah and was told, "You are the messenger of Allah." This began his career as a prophet and he received many messages. By the time Muhammad died, the religion of Islam was exploding. The nomadic Arab tribes were joining forces in the name of Allah and his prophet, Muhammad.
"In their "holy" book, the Koran, Christ is regarded as only a prophet. If the pope was His representative on earth, then he also must be a prophet of God. This caused the followers of Muhammad to fear and respect the pope as another "holy man."
"The pope moved quickly and issued bulls granting the Arab generals permission to invade and conquer the nations of North Africa. The Vatican helped to finance the building of these massive Islamic armies in exchange for three favors:
1. Eliminate the Jews and Christians (true believers, which they called infidels).
2. Protect the Augustinian Monks and Roman Catholics.
3. Conquer Jerusalem for "His Holiness" in the Vatican.
"As time went by, the power of Islam became tremendous - Jews and true Christians were slaughtered, and Jerusalem fell into their hands. Roman Catholics were never attacked, nor were their shrines, during this time. But when the pope asked for Jerusalem, he was surprised at their denial! The Arab generals had such military success that they could not be intimidated by the pope - nothing could stand in the way of their own plan.
"Under Waraquah's direction, Muhammad wrote that Abraham offered Ishmael as a sacrifice. The Bible says that Isaac was the sacrifice, but Muhammad removed Isaac's name and inserted Ishmael's name. As a result of this and Muhammad's vision, the faithful Muslims built a mosque, the Dome of the Rock, in Ishmael's honor on the site of the Jewish temple that was destroyed in 70 AD. This made Jerusalem the 2nd most holy place in the Islam faith. How could they give such a sacred shrine to the pope without causing a revolt?
"The pope realized what they had created was out of control when he heard they were calling "His Holiness" an infidel. The Muslim generals were determined to conquer the world for Allah and now they turned toward Europe. Islamic ambassadors approached the pope and asked for papal bulls to give them permission to invade European countries.
"The Vatican was outraged; war was inevitable. Temporal power and control of the world was considered the basic right of the pope. He wouldn't think of sharing it with those whom he considered heathens.
"The pope raised up his armies and called them crusades to hold back the children of Ishmael from grabbing Catholic Europe. The crusades lasted centuries and Jerusalem slipped out of the pope's hands.
"Turkey fell and Spain and Portugal were invaded by Islamic forces. In Portugal, they called a mountain village "Fatima" in honor of Muhammad's daughter, never dreaming it would become world famous.
"Years later when the Muslim armies were poised on the islands of Sardinia and Corsica, to invade Italy, there was a serious problem. The Islamic generals realized they were too far extended. It was time for peace talks. One of the negotiators was Francis of Assisi.
"As a result, the Muslims were allowed to occupy Turkey in a "Christian" world, and the Catholics were allowed to occupy Lebanon in the Arab world. It was also agreed that the Muslims could build mosques in Catholic countries without interference as long as Roman Catholicism could flourish Arab countries.
Now The Vatican wants Jesusalem and will use the Jews and Mulsims to fight against each other to eventualy illiminate them
Name:Pat •
Date: 03/26/07 15:45
A: Roy wrote:
Can you imagine, Bill Gates writing on Stone tablets his Vista, or Windows XP programmes? Where are the other high civilazation Stone tablets about chemistry, biology, medical research, art, music, paints, food recepies, garment sewing books, printing machines? How come there is no artifacts found as we may recognise from technological marvel in gravel they unearthed, no machine, no vehicle, no instrument but axes, knives? Cant you see the simple facts from where the “high knowledge ! ” written on, Stones from the cartoon “flingstones”.
Pat wrote:
This ain't the Flinstone but heavy research with facts.
Here are some artifacts and learn real history and facts
The- Flood Tablet, relating part of the Epic of Gilgamesh
Neo-Assyrian, 7th century BC
From Nineveh, northern Iraq
The most famous cuneiform tablet from Mesopotamia
The Assyrian King Ashurbanipal (reigned 669-631 BC) collected a library of thousands of cuneiform tablets in his palace at Nineveh. They recorded myths, legends and scientific information. Among them was the story of the adventures of Gilgamesh, a legendary ruler of Uruk, and his search for immortality. The Epic of Gilgamesh is a huge work, the longest literary work in Akkadian (the language of Babylonia and Assyria). It was widely known, with versions also found at Hattusas, capital of the Hittites, and Megiddo in the Levant.
This, the eleventh tablet of the epic, describes the meeting of Gilgamesh with Utnapishtim. Like Noah in the Hebrew Bible, Utnapishtim had been forewarned of a plan by the gods to send a great flood. He built a boat and loaded it with everything he could find. Utnapishtim survived the flood for six days while mankind was destroyed, before landing on a mountain called Nimush. He released a dove and a swallow but they did not find dry land to rest on, and returned. Finally a raven that he released did not return, showing that the waters must have receded.
This Assyrian version of the Old Testament flood story was identified in 1872 by George Smith, an assistant in The British Museum. On reading the text he
... jumped up and rushed about the room in a great state of excitement, and, to the astonishment of those present, began to undress himself.'
http://xfacts.com/-ancient/index.html
Sumeria-n- Culture and the Anunnaki
Working from the same archaeological discoveries, artifacts, and recovered records as archaeologists and linguists have for two hundred years, Sitchin propounds – proves, in the opinion of this author -- that the Anunnaki (Sumerian: “those who came down from the heavens”; Old testament Hebrew, Anakeim, Nefilim, Elohim; Egyptian: Neter), an advanced civilization from the tenth planet in our solar system, splashed down in the Persian gulf area around 432,000 years ago, colonized the planet, with the purpose of obtaining large quantities of gold. Some 250,000 years ago, the recovered documents tell us, their lower echelon miners rebelled against the conditions in the mines and the Anunnaki directorate decided to create a creature to take their place. Enki, their chief scientist and Ninhursag their chief medical officer, after getting no satisfactory results splicing animal and Homo Erectus genes, merged their Anunnaki genes with that of Homo Erectus and produced us, Homo Sapiens, a genetically bicameral species, for their purposes as slaves. Because we were a hybrid, we could not procreate. The demand for us as workers became greater and we were genetically manipulated to reproduce.
http://xfa-cts.com/ancient/index.html-
Name:sage •
Date: 03/26/07 18:18
A: Thank you Pat, I try to live by the rules I set and I have respect for all different views, even when that respect is not given to me or mine.
I do not appreciate being told my beliefs are wrong just because they don't jive with someone else's opinion of what I should be believing and how I should express my faith. Those people can piss off and I hope they choke on their self righteousness. I take comfort in hoping they return to this earth once more, but next time hopefully they'll be back as a cockroach or some other equally useless creature. Karma works in fantastic ways!
I enjoy learning of other beliefs and perspectives. Just because I don't share them doesn't mean they are any less worthy of understanding.
Can't we all just get along? ;)
Name:roy •
Date: 03/27/07 2:39
A: Pat,
I didnt want to smash your belief into shambles but it is so weak that, when faced with reality inevitably it was voiced and break like a drum. Nothing inside but aloud over all thoughts. Do you see how other people are speaking short but meaningful but yours are the most longest but nothing real inside. I feel sorry about all causing earthquekes in your belief~signs are your arrogance, but try this Jesus family tomb forum as a chance to wake up, which was a gentle slap on your face, and shape up your future spiritual life.
We have to struggle to answer your empty faith. It is nothing personal please dont take it on your identity. I advise keep your integrity although you have lost temper a lot and very easily.
Believe me I can be very sarcastic and rude, as well as polite according to circumstances. Trust me. I know your culture well and plus my inherited culture (and curses), so better keep low at insulting or cursing or I can be also rude back to you this time attacking to your personality.
If you are not pretending but real intellectual, you should be listening to other information. You dont even read what I wrote for you and keep slandering same insults to my faith, want answer again. On the contrary you want all of us read your 15 something books, numerous soul darkening websites, in addition to full of false and deliberately produced lies in your posts.
Written books and fancy movies about space does not hold any meaning but entertainment unless proven reality. Your slander filled stories accusations do not make truth even you add them upto libraries load of work, as long as considered lies nothing to do with real history.
Your low faith into such aliens get so sarcastic that in order to be above all human
beliefs you must find the weak parts in them, contradictions, fight reasons, bad portraits, so that everybody will believe your faith is above them all. Raw savage psychologic ailment.
We as decent people, turn our faces away from where is waste, empty, nonsense jobs whenever we see them. You can enjoy reading as time killing novels, however it has to be kept at that stage. You accepted them as religion in full scale above all. Science fiction is story thats all. The people who created these stories added imagination to archeology and spiced it with future predictions plus unknown extraterresterials. How nice it sounds.
Let say there are aliens who visits our planet from time to time, they skip 2003 visit (so bad, you were prepared !) , did earth dwellers appoint you and Zecharie to meet them as representatives? Why are you busy body this much about the aliens? Let them visit their gene farm ! Are you the only one to get killed ! Are you the prophet Noah to save us !
I dont try to convert people or you. It is up to you or others to see and check the truth among other posts. I only voice and defend my faith. It is a right in US constitution aint it? Preaching toothers is more meaning ful than preeching to your-like minds, they are receptive cleverer in questions, accusations.
You even insult my prayers, too low to be negotiated, I pray everywhere with dignity. In restaurants, planes, stations, parks, wherever people can be… Do you have any objection?
I had no serious criticism from you untill now to cause change my mind, noone asks for war between the civilizations, states, sects of one rligion. Nevertheless it happens, it will happen also in the future. It is natural and have some theological implications, I can talk about it hours. However you take this chance to fuel future fights seeding hatred among people. It doesnt help more into peace barking each other. Can you find a way to heal wounds with magic cream, with smooth feel. Islam advocates this way. Can you be better, race with religions that way. ( Doesnt mean avoid being just.)
Islam is open to leaving and coming nobody can be captive.Aposty in İslam is free no capital punishment, you can even see ~although very few~ official ad changing religion. Why are you feel need bring up apostasy? We are not self-suspicious people. God doesnt need you or me. We need Him.
Why muslims are coming to America, Canada Europe. That is economical reasons, and turistic of course. Do you have objection freedom of pursuing happiness? It is another constitutional fact. Did you own earth? Did you paid for it or your father gave you inheritence? Everybody goes everywhere, Muslims have been all over world, Alaska included. Qoran principles are important to adhere not the name of country live in. As you find out from history, muslims were happy at their countries plus they wanted to save other nations from slavery, suppression, it was basic reason why they spread so fast all over world. However they neglect their teachings last 300 years.
If you care I put down many Quranic verses related to space. I trust your knowledge about stars, I expect you are familiar with some of them. Could you please comment on them. You may help peoples understanding. Some of them are not solved yet. Some are realised as truth. Examples are:
- there was an expansion in the universe, growing randomness through the expansion, in opposite there is a growing precission and detailed calculation towards the big bang, nothingness. These ideas of yours had coincided with our book Quran’s explanations about the universe, stars, sun and moon, dooms day, orbit, clouds, making of the world, and all other reality of todays world.
[51:47] With power did We construct the heaven. Verily, we are expanding it.
- the wall between waterpass by french scientist, Captain Jacques Cousteau.
[27:61]..and created a barrier between the two waters? ...
[55:19] He has let free the two bodies of flowing water meeting together
[55:20] Between them there is a barrier which they do not transgress
[25:53] He is the One who has set free the two seas; one is sweet and palatable, and the other is salty and bitter. And He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.
PLEASE INTERPRET THE FOLLOWING SENTENCES;
[7:54] Your Lord is the one GOD, who created the heavens and the earth in six days, then assumed all authority. The night overtakes the day, as it pursues it persistently, and the sun, the moon, and the stars are committed to serve by His command. Absolutely, He controls all creation and all commands. Most Exalted is GOD, Lord of the universe.
[11:7] He is the One who created the heavens and the earth in six days - and His (earthly) domain was completely covered with water - in order to test you, to distinguish those among you who work righteousness. Yet, when you say, "You will be resurrected after death," those who disbelieve would say, "This is clearly witchcraft."
[25:59] He is the One who created the heavens and the earth, and everything between them, in six days, then assumed all authority. The Most Gracious; ask about Him those who are well founded in knowledge.
[41:9] Say, "You disbelieve in the One who created the earth in two days, and you set up idols to rank with Him, though He is Lord of the universe.”
[41:10] He placed on it stabilizers (mountains), made it productive, and He calculated its provisions in four days, to satisfy the needs of all its inhabitants”
[41:11] Then He turned to the sky, when it was still gas, and said to it, and to the earth, "Come into existence, willingly or unwillingly." They said, "We come willingly."
[41:12] Thus, He completed the seven universes in two days, and set up the laws for every universe. And we adorned the lowest universe with lamps, and placed guards around it. Such is the design of the Almighty, the Omniscient.
[50:38] We have created the heavens and the earth, and everything between them in six days, and no fatigue touched us.
[57:4] He is the One who created the heavens and the earth in six days, then assumed all authority. He knows everything that enters into the earth, and everything that comes out of it, and everything that comes down from the sky, and everything that climbs into it. He is with you wherever you may be. GOD is Seer of everything you do.
[57:5] To Him belongs the kingship of the heavens and the earth. All matters are controlled by GOD.
[57:6] He merges the night into the day, and merges the day into the night. He is fully aware of the innermost thoughts.
[65:12] GOD created seven universes and the same number of earths. The commands flow among them. This is to let you know that GOD is Omnipotent, and that GOD is fully aware of all things.
[67:1] Most exalted is the One in whose hands is all kingship, and He is Omnipotent.
[67:2] The One who created death and life for the purpose of distinguishing those among you who would do better. He is the Almighty, the Forgiving.
[67:3] He created seven universes in layers. You do not see any imperfection in the creation by the Most Gracious. Keep looking; do you see any flaw?
[67:4] Look again and again; your eyes will come back stumped and conquered.
[67:5] We adorned the lowest universe with lamps, and guarded its borders with projectiles against the devils; we prepared for them a retribution in Hell.
[23:17] We created above you seven universes in layers, and we are never unaware of a single creature in them.
[71:15] Do you not realize that GOD created seven universes in layers?
[71:16] He designed the moon therein to be a light, and placed the sun to be a lamp.
[71:17] And GOD germinated you from the earth like plants.
[71:18] Then He returns you into it, and He will surely bring you out.
[71:19] GOD made the earth habitable for you.
[71:20] That you may build roads therein.
[78:12] We built above you seven universes.
[78:13] We created a bright lamp.
[54:1] The Hour has come closer, and the moon has split.
[54:49] Everything we created is precisely measured.
[37:6] We have adorned the lowest heaven with adorning planets.
[37:7] We guarded it from every evil devil.
Quran Verses related to your standpoint;
[6:96] At the crack of dawn, He causes the morning to emerge. He made the night still, and He rendered the sun and the moon to serve as calculation devices. Such is the design of the Almighty, the Omniscient.
[7:54] Your Lord is the one GOD, who created the heavens and the earth in six days, then assumed all authority. The night overtakes the day, as it pursues it persistently, and the sun, the moon, and the stars are committed to serve by His command. Absolutely, He controls all creation and all commands. Most Exalted is GOD, Lord of the universe.
[10:5] He is the One who rendered the sun radiant, and the moon a light, and He designed its phases that you may learn to count the years and to calculate. GOD did not create all this, except for a specific purpose. He explains the revelations for people who know.
[10:6] Surely, in the alternation of night and day, and what GOD created in the heavens and the earth, there are proofs for people who are righteous.
[13:2] GOD is the One who raised the heavens without pillars that you can see, then assumed all authority. He committed the sun and the moon, each running (in its orbit) for a predetermined period. He controls all things, and explains the revelations, that you may attain certainty about meeting your Lord.
54:1] The Hour has come closer, and the moon has split.
[54:2] Then they saw a miracle; but they turned away and said, "Old magic."
[2:164] In the creation of the heavens and the earth, the alternation of night and day, the ships that roam the ocean for the benefit of the people, the water that GOD sends down from the sky to revive dead land and to spread in it all kinds of creatures, the manipulation of the winds, and the clouds that are placed between the sky and the earth, there are sufficient proofs for people who understand.
[15:16] We placed galaxies in the sky, and adorned it for the beholders.
[15:17] And we guarded it against every rejected devil.
[15:18] If any of them sneaks around to listen, a mighty projectile will chase him back.
[15:19] As for the earth, we constructed it, and placed on it stabilizers (mountains), and we grew on it a perfect balance of everything.
[15:20] We made it habitable for you, and for creatures you do not provide for.
[15:21] There is nothing that we do not own infinite amounts thereof. But we send it down in precise measure.
[15:22] And we send the winds as pollinators, and cause water to come down from the sky for you to drink. Otherwise, you could not keep it palatable.
[15:23] It is we who control life and death, and we are the ultimate inheritors.
[15:24] And we fully know those among you who advance, and we fully know those who regress.
[15:25] Your Lord will surely summon them. He is Most Wise, Omniscient.
[15:26] We created the human being from aged mud, like the potter's clay.
[15:27] As for the jinns, we created them, before that, from blazing fire.
[15:85] We did not create the heavens and the earth, and everything between them, except for a specific purpose. The end of the world will come, so treat them with benign neglect.
[25:59] He is the One who created the heavens and the earth, and everything between them, in six days, then assumed all authority. The Most Gracious; ask about Him those who are well founded in knowledge.
[25:60] When they are told, "Fall prostrate before the Most Gracious," they say, "What is the Most Gracious? Shall we prostrate before what you advocate?" Thus, it only augments their aversion.
[25:61] Most blessed is the One who placed constellations in the sky, and placed in it a lamp, and a shining moon.
[85:1] The sky and its galaxies
[2:164] In the creation of the heavens and the earth, the alternation of night and day, the ships that roam the ocean for the benefit of the people, the water that GOD sends down from the sky to revive dead land and to spread in it all kinds of creatures, the manipulation of the winds, and the clouds that are placed between the sky and the earth, there are sufficient proofs for people who understand.
[6:1] Praise be to GOD, who created the heavens and the earth, and made the darkness and the light. Yet, those who disbelieve in their Lord continue to deviate.
[6:94] "You have come back to us as individuals, just as we created you the first time, and you have left behind what we provided for you. We do not see with you the intercessors that you idolized and claimed that they will help you. All ties among you have been severed; the idols you set up have abandoned you."
[6:95] GOD is the One who causes the grains and the seeds to crack and germinate. He produces the living from the dead, and the dead from the living. Such is GOD; how could you deviate!
[6:96] At the crack of dawn, He causes the morning to emerge. He made the night still, and He rendered the sun and the moon to serve as calculation devices. Such is the design of the Almighty, the Omniscient.
[6:97] And He is the One who made the stars to guide you during the darkness, on land and on sea. We thus clarify the revelations for people who know.
[6:98] He initiated you from one person, and decided your path, as well as your final destiny. We thus clarify the revelations for people who understand.
[6:99] He is the One who sends down from the sky water, whereby we produce all kinds of plants. We produce from the green material multitudes of complex grains, palm trees with hanging clusters, and gardens of grapes, olives and pomegranate; fruits that are similar, yet dissimilar. Note their fruits as they grow and ripen. These are signs for people who believe.
[6:100] Yet, they set up beside GOD idols from among the jinns, though He is the One who created them. They even attribute to Him sons and daughters, without any knowledge. Be He glorified. He is the Most High, far above their claims.
[6:101] The Initiator of the heavens and the earth. How can He have a son, when He never had a mate? He created all things, and He is fully aware of all things.
[6:102] Such is GOD your Lord, there is no god except He, the Creator of all things. You shall worship Him alone. He is in control of all things.
[6:103] No visions can encompass Him, but He encompasses all visions. He is the Compassionate, the Cognizant.
[6:104] Enlightenments have come to you from your Lord. As for those who can see, they do so for their own good, and those who turn blind, do so to their own detriment. I am not your guardian.
[6:105] We thus explain the revelations, to prove that you have received knowledge, and to clarify them for people who know.
[7:54] Your Lord is the one GOD, who created the heavens and the earth in six days, then assumed all authority. The night overtakes the day, as it pursues it persistently, and the sun, the moon, and the stars are committed to serve by His command. Absolutely, He controls all creation and all commands. Most Exalted is GOD, Lord of the universe.
[13:2] GOD is the One who raised the heavens without pillars that you can see, then assumed all authority. He committed the sun and the moon, each running (in its orbit) for a predetermined period. He controls all things, and explains the revelations, that you may attain certainty about meeting your Lord.
[13:3] He is the One who constructed the earth and placed on it mountains and rivers. And from the different kinds of fruits, He made them into pairs - males and females. The night overtakes the day. These are solid proofs for people who think.
[13:4] On earth, there are adjacent lots that produce orchards of grapes, crops, palm trees - dioecious and non-dioecious. Although they are irrigated with the same water, we prefer some of them over others in eating. These are solid proofs for people who understand.
[13:5] If you ever wonder, the real wonder is their saying: "After we turn into dust, do we get recreated anew?" These are the ones who have disbelieved in their Lord. These are the ones who have incurred shackles around their necks. These are the ones who have incurred Hell, wherein they abide forever.
[14:32] GOD is the One who created the heavens and the earth, and He sends down from the sky water to produce all kinds of fruit for your sustenance. He has committed the ships to serve you on the sea in accordance with His command. He has committed the rivers as well to serve you.
[14:33] He has committed the sun and the moon in your service, continuously. He has committed the night and the day to serve you.
[16:12] And He commits, in your service, the night and the day, as well as the sun and the moon. Also, the stars are committed by His command. These are (sufficient) proofs for people who understand.
[21:22] If there were in them (the heavens and the earth) other gods beside GOD, there would have been chaos. Glory be to GOD; the Lord with absolute authority. He is high above their claims.
[21:23] He is never to be asked about anything He does, while all others are questioned.
[21:24] Have they found other gods beside Him? Say, "Show me your proof. This is the message to my generation, consummating all previous messages." Indeed, most of them do not recognize the truth; this is why they are so hostile.
[21:25] We did not send any messenger before you except with the inspiration: "There is no god except Me; you shall worship Me alone."
[21:26] Yet, they said, "The Most Gracious has begotten a son!" Glory be to Him. All (messengers) are (His) honored servants.
[21:27] They never speak on their own, and they strictly follow His commands.
[21:28] He knows their future and their past. They do not intercede, except for those already accepted by Him, and they are worried about their own necks.
[21:29] If any of them claims to be a god beside Him, we requite him with Hell; we thus requite the wicked.
The Big Bang Theory Confirmed*
[21:30] Do the unbelievers not realize that the heaven and the earth used to be one solid mass that we exploded into existence? And from water we made all living things. Would they believe?
[21:31] And we placed on earth stabilizers, lest it tumbles with them, and we placed straight roads therein, that they may be guided.
[21:32] And we rendered the sky a guarded ceiling. Yet, they are totally oblivious to all the portents therein.
[21:33] And He is the One who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon; each floating in its own orbit.
[22:61] It is a fact that GOD merges the night into the day, and merges the day into the night, and that GOD is Hearer, Seer.
[22:65] Do you not see that GOD has committed in your service everything on earth? The ships run in the ocean by His command. He prevents the heavenly bodies from crashing onto the earth, except in accordance with His command. GOD is Most Kind towards the people, Most Merciful.
[23:80] He is the One who controls life and death, and He is the One who alternates the night and day. Do you not understand?
[23:81] They said what their ancestors said.
[23:82] They said, "After we die and become dust and bones, we get resurrected?
[23:83] "Such promises were given to us and to our parents in the past. These are no more than tales from the past."
[23:84] Say, "To whom belongs the earth and everyone on it, if you know?"
[23:85] They will say, "To GOD." Say, "Why then do you not take heed?"
[23:86] Say, "Who is the Lord of the seven universes; the Lord of the great dominion?"
[23:87] They will say, "GOD." Say, "Why then do you not turn righteous?"
[23:88] Say, "In whose hand is all sovereignty over all things, and He is the only one who can provide help, but needs no help, if you know?"
[23:89] They will say, "GOD." Say, "Where did you go wrong?"
[23:90] We have given them the truth, while they are liars.
[23:91] GOD has never begotten a son. Nor was there ever any other god beside Him. Otherwise, each god would have declared independence with his creations, and they would have competed with each other for dominance. GOD be glorified; far above their claims.
[23:92] The Knower of all secrets and declarations; be He exalted, far above having a partner.
[24:44] GOD controls the night and day. This should be a lesson for those who possess eyes.
[24:45] And GOD created every living creature from water. Some of them walk on their bellies, some walk on two legs, and some walk on four. GOD creates whatever He wills. GOD is Omnipotent.
[27:87] On the day when the horn is blown, everyone in the heavens and the earth will be horrified, except those chosen by GOD. All will come before Him, forcibly.
[27:88] When you look at the mountains, you think that they are standing still. But they are moving, like the clouds. Such is the manufacture of GOD, who perfected everything. He is fully Cognizant of everything you do.
[31:29] Do you not realize that GOD merges the night into the day and merges the day into the night, and that He has committed the sun and the moon in your service, each running in its orbit for a specific life span, and that GOD is fully Cognizant of everything you do?
[35:11] GOD created you from dust, then from a tiny drop, then He causes you to reproduce through your spouses. No female becomes pregnant, nor gives birth, without His knowledge. No one survives for a long life, and no one's life is snapped short, except in accordance with a pre-existing record. This is easy for GOD.
[35:12] The two seas are not the same; one is fresh and delicious, while the other is salty and undrinkable. From each of them you eat tender meat, and extract jewelry to wear. And you see the ships sailing through them, seeking His provisions, that you may be appreciative.
[35:13] He merges the night into the day, and merges the day into the night. He has committed the sun and the moon to run for a predetermined period of time. Such is GOD your Lord; to Him belongs all kingship. Any idols you set up beside Him do not possess as much as a seed's shell.
[36:37] Another sign for them is the night: we remove the daylight therefrom, whereupon they are in darkness.
[36:38] The sun sets into a specific location, according to the design of the Almighty, the Omniscient.
[36:39] The moon we designed to appear in stages, until it becomes like an old curved sheath.
[36:40] The sun is never to catch up with the moon - the night and the day never deviate - each of them is floating in its own orbit.
[39:4] If GOD wanted to have a son, He could have chosen whomever He willed from among His creations. Be He glorified; He is GOD, the One, the Supreme.
[39:5] He created the heavens and the earth truthfully. He rolls the night over the day, and rolls the day over the night. He committed the sun and the moon, each running for a finite period. Absolutely, He is the Almighty, the Forgiving.
[39:6] He created you from one person, then created from him his mate. He sent down to you eight kinds of livestock. He creates you in your mothers' bellies, creation after creation, in trimesters of darkness. Such is GOD your Lord. To Him belongs all sovereignty. There is no other god beside Him. How could you deviate?
[41:37] Among His proofs are the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. Do not prostrate before the sun, nor the moon; you shall fall prostrate before the GOD who created them, if you truly worship Him alone.
[79:27] Are you more difficult to create than the heaven? He constructed it.
[79:28] He raised its masses, and perfected it.
[79:29] He made its night dark, and brightened its morn.
[79:30] He made the earth egg-shaped.
[79:31] From it, He produced its own water and pasture.
[79:32] He established the mountains.
[79:33] All this to provide life support for you and your animals.
[79:34] Then, when the great blow comes.
[79:35] That is the day when the human will remember everything he did.
[89:1] By the dawn.
[89:2] And the ten nights.
[89:3] By the even and the odd.
[89:4] By the night as it passes.
[89:5] A profound oath, for one who possesses intelligence.
[91:1] By the sun and its brightness.
[91:2] The moon that follows it.
[91:3] The day that reveals.
[91:4] The night that covers.
[91:5] The sky and Him who built it.
[91:6] The earth and Him who sustains it.
[50:6] Have they not looked at the sky above them, and how we constructed it and adorned it, without a flaw?
[50:7] And we created the earth, and scattered on it mountains, and grew in it all kinds of beautiful plants.
[50:8] This is an enlightenment, and a reminder for every pious worshiper.
[71:15] Do you not realize that GOD created seven universes in layers?
[71:16] He designed the moon therein to be a light, and placed the sun to be a lamp.
[2:29] He is the One who created for you everything on earth, then turned to the sky and perfected seven universes therein, and He is fully aware of all things.
[2:30] Recall that your Lord said to the angels, "I am placing a representative (a temporary god) on Earth." They said, "Will You place therein one who will spread evil therein and shed blood, while we sing Your praises, glorify You, and uphold Your absolute authority?" He said, "I know what you do not know."
[2:31] He taught Adam all the names then presented them to the angels, saying, "Give me the names of these, if you are right."
[2:32] They said, "Be You glorified, we have no knowledge, except that which You have taught us. You are the Omniscient, Most Wise."
[2:33] He said, "O Adam, tell them their names." When he told them their names, He said, "Did I not tell you that I know the secrets of the heavens and the earth? I know what you declare, and what you conceal."
[2:116] They said, "GOD has begotten a son!" Be He glorified; never! To Him belongs everything in the heavens and the earth; all are subservient to Him.
[2:117] The Initiator of the heavens and the earth: to have anything done, He simply says to it, "Be," and it is.
[6:2] He is the One who created you from mud, then predetermined your life span, a life span that is known only to Him. Yet, you continue to doubt.
[6:73] He is the One who created the heavens and the earth, truthfully. Whenever He says, "Be," it is. His word is the absolute truth. All sovereignty belongs to Him the day the horn is blown. Knower of all secrets and declarations, He is the Most Wise, the Cognizant.
[6:101] The Initiator of the heavens and the earth. How can He have a son, when He never had a mate? He created all things, and He is fully aware of all things.
[17:99] Could they not see that the GOD who created the heavens and the earth is able to create the same creations? (That) He has predetermined for them an irrevocable life span? Yet, the disbelievers insist upon disbelieving.
[18:7] We have adorned everything on earth, in order to test them, and thus distinguish those among them who work righteousness.
[18:8] Inevitably, we will wipe out everything on it, leaving it completely barren.
[18:51] I never permitted them to witness the creation of the heavens and the earth, nor the creation of themselves. Nor do I permit the wicked to work in My kingdom.
[20:1] T. H.*
[20:2] We did not reveal the Quran to you, to cause you any hardship.
[20:3] Only to remind the reverent.
[20:4] A revelation from the Creator of the earth and the high heavens.
[20:5] The Most Gracious; He has assumed all authority.
[20:6] To Him belongs everything in the heavens, and the earth, and everything between them, and everything beneath the ground.
[24:35] GOD is the light of the heavens and the earth. The allegory of His light is that of a concave mirror behind a lamp that is placed inside a glass container. The glass container is like a bright, pearl-like star. The fuel thereof is supplied from a blessed oil-producing tree, that is neither eastern, nor western. Its oil is almost self-radiating; needs no fire to ignite it. Light upon light. GOD guides to His light whoever wills (to be guided). GOD thus cites the parables for the people. GOD is fully aware of all things.
[27:60] Who is the One who created the heavens and the earth? Who is the One who sends down to you from the sky water, whereby we produce gardens full of beauty - you could not possibly manufacture its trees? Is it another god with GOD? Indeed, they are people who have deviated.
[27:61] Who is the One who made the earth habitable, caused rivers to run through it, placed on it mountains, and created a barrier between the two waters? Is it another god with GOD? Indeed, most of them do not know.
[30:25] Among His proofs is that the heaven and the earth are standing at His disposal. Finally, when He calls you out of the earth, one call, you will immediately come out.
[32:5] All matters are controlled by Him from the heaven to the earth. To Him, the day is equivalent to one thousand of your years.
[34:9] Have they not seen all the things in front of them and behind them, in the heaven and the earth? If we willed, we could have caused the earth to swallow them, or caused masses to fall on them from the sky. This should be a sufficient proof for every obedient servant.
[35:41] GOD is the One who holds the heavens and the earth, lest they vanish. If anyone else is to hold them, they will most certainly vanish. He is Clement, Forgiving.
[38:27] We did not create the heaven and the earth, and everything between them, in vain. Such is the thinking of those who disbelieve. Therefore, woe to those who disbelieve; they will suffer in Hell.
[40:57] The creation of the heavens and the earth is even more awesome than the creation of the human being, but most people do not know.
[42:29] Among His proofs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the creatures He spreads in them. He is able to summon them, when He wills.
[45:3] The heavens and the earth are full of proofs for the believers.
[45:4] Also in your creation, and the creation of all the animals, there are proofs for people who are certain.
[45:5] Also, the alternation of the night and the day, and the provisions that GOD sends down from the sky to revive dead lands, and the manipulation of the winds; all these are proofs for people who understand.
[45:6] These are GOD's revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than GOD and His revelations do they believe?
[46:3] We did not create the heavens and the earth, and everything between them except for a specific purpose, and for a finite interim. Those who disbelieve are totally oblivious to the warnings given to them.
[51:7] Despite the perfectly created sky.
[51:8] You continue to dispute the truth.
[51:20] The earth is full of signs for those who are certain.
[51:21] And within yourselves; can you see?
[51:22] In the heaven is your provision, and everything that is promised to you.
[55:5] The sun and the moon are perfectly calculated.
[55:6] The stars and the trees prostrate.
[55:7] He constructed the sky and established the law.
[81:11] The heaven is removed.
[82:1] When the heaven is shattered.
[82:2] The planets are scattered.
[82:3] The oceans are exploded.
[82:4] The graves are opened.
[82:5] Every soul will find out what caused it to advance, and what caused it to regress.
[84:1] The time will come when the sky is ruptured.
[84:2] It will submit to its Lord and expire.
[84:3] The earth will be leveled.
[84:4] It will eject its contents, as it erupts.
[86:1] By the sky and Al-Taareq.
[86:2] Do you know what Al-Taareq is?
[86:3] The bright star.
[86:4] Absolutely, everyone is well guarded.
[99:1] When the earth is severely quaked.
[99:2] And the earth ejects its loads.
[99:3] The human will wonder: "What is happening?"
[99:4] On that day, it will tell its news.
[99:5] That your Lord has commanded it.
[99:6] On that day, the people will issue from every direction, to be shown their works.
[99:7] Whoever does an atom's weight of good will see it.
[99:8] And whoever does an atom's weight of evil will see it.
[6:158] Are they waiting for the angels to come to them, or your Lord, or some physical manifestations of your Lord? The day this happens, no soul will benefit from believing if it did not believe before that, and did not reap the benefits of belief by leading a righteous life. Say, "Keep on waiting; we too are waiting."
[54:1] The Hour has come closer, and the moon has split.
[54:2] Then they saw a miracle; but they turned away and said, "Old magic."
[7:187] They ask you about the end of the world (the Hour), and when it will come to pass. Say, "The knowledge thereof is with my Lord. Only He reveals its time. Heavy it is, in the heavens and the earth. It will not come to you except suddenly." They ask you as if you are in control thereof. Say, "The knowledge thereof is with GOD," but most people do not know.
[31:34] With GOD is the knowledge about the Hour (end of the world). He is the One who sends down the rain, and He knows the contents of the womb. No soul knows what will happen to it tomorrow, and no one knows in which land he or she will die. GOD is Omniscient, Cognizant.
[40:59] Most certainly, the Hour (Day of Judgment) is coming, no doubt about it, but most people do not believe.
[42:17] GOD is the One who sent down the scripture, to deliver the truth and the law. For all that you know, the Hour (Day of Judgment) may be very close.
[42:18] Challenging it are those who do not believe in it. As for those who believe, they are concerned about it, and they know that it is the truth. Absolutely, those who deny the Hour have gone far astray.
[43:61] He is to serve as a marker for knowing the end of the world, so you can no longer harbor any doubt about it. You shall follow Me; this is the right path.
[43:85] Most Exalted is the One who possesses all sovereignty of the heavens and the earth, and everything between them. With Him is the knowledge about the Hour (end of the world), and to Him you will be returned.
[45:32] When it is proclaimed that GOD's promise is the truth and that the Hour (of Judgment) is inevitable, you said, "We do not know what the Hour is! We are full of conjecture about it; we are not certain."
[47:18] Are they waiting until the Hour comes to them suddenly? All the signs thereof have already come. Once the Hour comes to them, how will they benefit from their message?
[77:1] (Angels) dispatched in succession.
[77:2] To drive the wind.
[77:3] Stir up clouds.
[77:4] Distribute the provisions.
[77:5] Deliver messages.
[77:6] Good news, as well as warnings.
[77:7] What is promised will come to pass.
[77:8] Thus, when the stars are put out.
[77:9] The sky is opened up.
[77:10] The mountains are blown up.
[77:11] The messengers are summoned.
[77:12] That is the appointed day.
[77:13] The Day of Decision.
[77:14] What a Day of Decision!
[77:15] Woe on that day to the rejectors.
[77:16] Did we not annihilate the earlier generations?
[77:17] Then we made others follow them?
[77:18] This is what we do to the criminals.
[77:19] Woe on that day to the rejectors.
[77:20] Did we not create you from a lowly liquid?
[77:21] Then we placed it in a well-protected repository.
[77:22] For a specific period.
[77:23] We measured it precisely. We are the best designers.
[77:24] Woe on that day to the rejectors.
[77:25] Did we not make the earth an abode?
[77:26] For the living and the dead?
[77:27] We placed on it high mountains, and provided you with fresh water to drink.
[77:28] Woe on that day to the rejectors.
[77:29] Go to what you used to disbelieve in.
[77:30] Go to a shade of three different densities.
[77:31] Yet, it provides neither coolness, nor protection from the heat.
[77:32] It throws sparks as big as mansions.
[77:33] As yellow as the color of camels.
[77:34] Woe on that day to the rejectors.
[77:35] That is the day they do not speak.
[77:36] Nor are they given permission to apologize.
[77:37] Woe on that day to the rejectors.
[77:38] This is the Day of Decision. We have summoned you and the previous generations.
[77:39] If you have any schemes, go ahead and scheme.
[77:40] Woe on that day to the rejectors.
[77:41] The righteous will enjoy shade and springs.
[77:42] And fruits that they desire.
[77:43] Eat and drink happily in return for your works.
[77:44] We thus reward the virtuous.
[77:45] Woe on that day to the rejectors.
[77:46] Eat and enjoy temporarily; you are guilty.
[77:47] Woe on that day to the rejectors.
[77:48] When they are told, "Bow down," they do not bow down.
[77:49] Woe on that day to the rejectors.
[77:50] Which Hadith, other than this, do they uphold?
[79:42] They ask you about the Hour, and when it will take place!
[79:43] It is not you (Muhammad) who is destined to announce its time.
[79:44] Your Lord decides its fate.
[79:45] Your mission is to warn those who expect it.
[79:46] The day they see it, they will feel as if they lasted one evening or half a day.
[20:105] They ask you about the mountains. Say, "My Lord will wipe them out.
[20:106] "He will leave them like a barren, flat land.
[20:107] "Not even the slightest hill will you see therein, nor a dip."
[27:87] On the day when the horn is blown, everyone in the heavens and the earth will be horrified, except those chosen by GOD. All will come before Him, forcibly.
[27:88] When you look at the mountains, you think that they are standing still. But they are moving, like the clouds. Such is the manufacture of GOD, who perfected everything. He is fully Cognizant of everything you do.
[36:53] All it will take is one blow, whereupon they are summoned before us.
[39:68] The horn will be blown, whereupon everyone in the heavens and the earth will be struck unconscious, except those who will be spared by GOD. Then it will be blown another time, whereupon they will all rise up, looking.
[50:42] When they hear the inevitable cry; that is the day you come out.
[50:43] We are the ones who control life and death; to us is the final destiny.
[50:44] The day will come when the earth cracks in a hurry, giving rise to them. Such summoning is easy for us to do.
[69:13] When the horn is blown once.
[69:14] The earth and the mountains will be carried off and crushed; utterly crushed.
[69:15] That is the day when the inevitable event will come to pass.
[69:16] The heaven will crack, and fall apart.
[69:38] I swear by what you see.
[69:39] And what you do not see.
[69:40] This is the utterance of an honorable messenger.
[69:41] Not the utterance of a poet; rarely do you believe.
[69:42] Nor the utterance of a soothsayer; rarely do you take heed.
[69:43] A revelation from the Lord of the universe.
[69:44] Had he uttered any other teachings.
[69:45] We would have punished him.
[69:46] We would have stopped the revelations to him.
[69:47] None of you could have helped him.
[69:48] This is a reminder for the righteous.
[69:49] We know; some of you are rejectors.
[69:50] It is but sorrow for the disbelievers.
[69:51] It is the absolute truth.
[69:52] Therefore, you shall glorify the name of your Lord, Most Great.
[78:1] What are they questioning?
[78:2] The great event.
[78:3] That is disputed by them.
[78:4] Indeed, they will find out.
[78:5] Most assuredly, they will find out.
[78:6] Did we not make the earth habitable?
[78:7] And the mountains stabilizers?
[78:8] We created you as mates (for one another).
[78:9] We created sleeping so you can rest.
[78:10] We made the night a cover.
[78:11] And the day to seek provisions.
[78:12] We built above you seven universes.
[78:13] We created a bright lamp.
[78:14] We send down from the clouds pouring water.
[78:15] To produce with it grains and plants.
[78:16] And various orchards.
[78:17] The Day of Decision is appointed.
[78:18] The day the horn is blown, and you come in throngs.
[78:19] The heaven will be opened like gates.
[78:20] The mountains will be removed, as if they were a mirage.
[78:21] Gehenna is inevitable.
[78:22] For the transgressors; it will be their abode.
[78:23] They stay in it for ages.
[78:24] They never taste in it coolness, nor a drink.
[78:25] Only an inferno, and bitter food.
[78:26] A just requital.
[78:27] They never expected to be held accountable.
[21:96] Not until Gog and Magog reappear, will they then return - they will come from every direction.
[21:97] That is when the inevitable prophecy will come to pass, and the disbelievers will stare in horror: "Woe to us; we have been oblivious. Indeed, we have been wicked."
[16:15] And He placed stabilizers (mountains) on earth, lest it tumbles with you, as well as rivers and roads, that you may be guided.
[16:16] And landmarks, as well as the stars; to be used for navigation.
[37:6] We have adorned the lowest heaven with adorning planets.
[37:7] We guarded it from every evil devil.
[53:1] As the stars fell away.
[53:2] Your friend (Muhammad) was not astray, nor was he deceived.
[55:5] The sun and the moon are perfectly calculated.
[55:6] The stars and the trees prostrate.
[55:7] He constructed the sky and established the law.
[55:17] Lord of the two easts and the two wests.
[55:19] He separates the two seas where they meet.
[55:29] Imploring Him is everyone in the heavens and the earth. Every day He is in full control.
[55:33] O you jinns and humans, if you can penetrate the outer limits of the heavens and the earth, go ahead and penetrate. You cannot penetrate without authorization.
[55:35] You get bombarded with projectiles of fire and metal, and you cannot win.
[55:37] When the sky disintegrates, and turns rose colored like paint.
[81:1] When the sun is rolled.
[81:2] The stars are crashed into each other.
[81:3] The mountains are wiped out.
[81:6] The oceans are set aflame.
[81:11] The heaven is removed.
[81:14] Every soul will know everything it brought.
Sage:
Can you be real environment lover by calling “your opponents return earth once more cockroach or some other equally useless creature. As a Karma bad wish? “ We muslims love cockroach and all creatures small and bigger with great love and respect as they are art of God. You may witness the principle of not killing any livinig during hajj, even you are not allowed to cut any leaves from a tree. Can you call yourself humanitarian, environmentalist, peaceful with yourself and others if you treat rest of the world garbage/sufferer or useless? Keep your Karma in your box please I can open Pandoras Box.
Name:sage •
Date: 03/27/07 3:02
A: Sage:
Can you be real environment lover by calling “your opponents return earth once more cockroach or some other equally useless creature. As a Karma bad wish? “ We muslims love cockroach and all creatures small and bigger with great love and respect as they are art of God.
Roy, you've got to be kidding, or are you really that petty? I used a cockroach for an example because many people find them insuffurable, and they're aren't one of my favorite bugs. I don't mind bugs, but there are some I can live without. Are you telling me you love everything? There is not one thing you do not like? You're preaching for the sake of seeing your own words, I might have made a mistake in thinking you were intelligent and capable of getting the point without me having to spell it out for you. You accused me of poisoning the earth for my own selfish reasons, I responded and told you that I do not abuse our good earth. I respect her and care for her as best I can.
"You may witness the principle of not killing any livinig during hajj, even you are not allowed to cut any leaves from a tree."
Do you think you are the only one here with beliefs and traditions? There are a few times of the year when there are certain things I do not do or participate in. I think your conversations might be easier if you kept an open mind and instead of listing pages of reference for your beliefs, just state them. We don't need to choke on them. Respect is given and earned.
"Can you call yourself humanitarian, environmentalist, peaceful with yourself and others if you treat rest of the world garbage/sufferer or useless?"
Your use of the english language is too foggy here, I'm unsure what you are saying. Unlike you, when I don't understand something, I ask for clarification instead of leaping to nasty conclusions.
I answer to no one, especially not YOU or someone like you. Ever. I am proud of who I am and what I do. Thats all I need to say to you.
"Keep your Karma in your box please I can open Pandoras Box."
There is quite a difference between karma and Pandora's Box, so I'm unsure how you're comparing them. Karma can bite back hard my friend, I'd be more gentle with others feelings if I were you.
Name:Pat •
Date: 03/27/07 12:37
A: roy wrote:
Pat,
I didnt want to smash your belief into shambles but it is so weak that, when faced with reality inevitably it was voiced and break like a drum. Nothing inside but aloud over all thoughts. Do you see how other people are speaking short but meaningful but yours are the most longest but nothing real inside. I feel sorry about all causing earthquekes in your belief~signs are your arrogance,
Pat wrote :
You are a real pompous ass and speaking of arrogance check yourself in the mirror buddy. I am not asking you to embrace my therory inwhich millions beleive it a possibility too. Who are you to judge it so weak you have not even studied the whole history of this theory. All I can say is that if it does not fall into your religious traditional values well according to Roy it must be garbage.
Roy wrote:
but try this Jesus family tomb forum as a chance to wake up, which was a gentle slap on your face, and shape up your future spiritual life.
We have to struggle to answer your empty faith. It is nothing personal please dont take it on your identity.
Pat wrote:
What arrogance from your part. Next you are going to state that Allah and Mohamed as send you to open my eyes? Chill out man maybe you are Bipolar. Get your medication or your carpet.
Roy wrote:
Believe me I can be very sarcastic and rude, as well as polite according to circumstances. Trust me. I know your culture well and plus my inherited culture (and curses), so better keep low at insulting or cursing or I can be also rude back to you this time attacking to your personality.
Pat wrote:
Take a shot at it it does not bother me.
Roy wrote Wrote:
You dont even read what I wrote for you and keep slandering same insults to my faith, want answer again.
Pat wrote:
Sorry fellow I do read what you right but I am not going to reat 200 pages of the Koran on your posts.
Roy wrote:
On the contrary you want all of us read your 15 something books, numerous soul darkening websites, in addition to full of false and deliberately produced lies in your posts.
Written books and fancy movies about space does not hold any meaning but entertainment unless proven reality.
Pat wrote:
I never ask you to read 15 books. The links and the info I gave you was to answer to your afirmation that my therory was hogwash. I brought that information to show you that a lot of research was made concerning this theory and that it can be a possibility.
As for the rest I on't bother I am finished in wasting my time.
Again I can only stress out go back and read why Mulsims are leaving Islam
Name:Pat •
Date: 03/27/07 12:51
A: Roy wrote:
As you find out from history, muslims were happy at their countries plus they wanted to save other nations from slavery, suppression, it was basic reason why they spread so fast all over world. However they neglect their teachings last 300 years.
Pat wrote:
HaHaha roy,
It must be pointed that slavery is permitted not only in the Koran but also in the Bible(7) You are full off poopoo
Islam institutionalized slavery. Muhammad began to take slaves after he moved to Medina, and had power. Slaves were usually taken in raids on nearby Arab tribes, or war, either through offensive or defensive actions. Islam allows the taking of slaves as "booty", or reward for fighting. This has led to numerous "jihads" by Muslim states and tribes to attack other non-Muslim groups and obtain slaves. Islamic jurisprudence laid down regulations for the proper treatment of slaves. However, abuses have occurred throughout history.
To begin with, the Quran justifies slavery, and often mentions slaves. Here are some relevant verses:
33:50 - "Prophet, We have made lawful to you the wives to whom you have granted dowries and the slave girls whom God has given you as booty."
This verse clearly shows that Muslims believe that taking slaves in war was a God-given right. These slaves were considered 'booty' or the spoils of war. As the saying goes: to the victors go the spoils.
23:5 - "... except with their wives and slave girls, for these are lawful to them:..."
The passage's context here (not quoted in full) details how Muslim males are allowed to have sexual relations with their wives and slave girls. Implicit in this is that Muslim males had slave-concubines. 70:30 is basically a repeat of 23:5.
Ibn Sa'd's "Tabaqat", gives a clear description of Muhammad having "relations" with at least one of his slave girls. Muhammad had sexual relations with Mariyah, his Coptic slave. Mariyah and her sister, Sirin were slaves given as gifts to Muhammad. Muhammad gave Sirin to Hasan Thabit, the poet. Ibn Sa'd says that Muhammad "liked Mariyah, who was of white complexion, with curly hair and pretty." [Taken from Ibn Sa'd's "Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir" (Book of the Major Classes), p151].
Ibn Sa'd also writes that Mariyah bore Muhammad a son named Ibrahim. He died 18 months later. Sa'd writes: "If he had lived, no maternal uncle of his would have remained in bondage", p164. This shows that there were other Coptic slaves owned by the Muslims.
The Quran also instructs Muslims NOT to force their female slaves into prostitution (24:34), and even allows Muslims to marry slaves if they so desire (4:24), and to free them at times as a penalty for crime or sin (4:92, 5:89, 58:3) and even allows slaves to buy their liberty, if they meet certain of their master's conditions (24:33). [90:10 'freeing of a bondsman' refers to Muslims ransoming other Muslims who were slaves of non-Muslims.]
While I think it's nice to allow a slave to obtain his freedom, (at his master's discretion) it is tragic that Islam allows them to be enslaved in the first place. That's like robbing a bank and giving some of the money back to the bank, and thinking you did the right thing!
The above verses show that taking slaves was ordained by Allah, and that it was permissible for Muslim males to have sex with their female slaves. It also shows that slaves were a valuable commodity to the Muslims, otherwise, Allah would not have imposed the penalty of freeing a slave to make up for a crime.
A: Sage,
Believe me your cockroach example was lapse of the tongue, I wish it is so, otherwise your complete profile changes. If you find any creature unsufferable in this world you have to start wondering where shall you be living. I dont invite anyone living among the cockroaches ofcourse but your environment is imbalanced without such creatures small or big. They contribute fertilizing soil-your goddess “mother nature” in its doings and creation, atleast you can think that way, as you dont believe in God.
There is no mother or a nature by itself, they are all signs of God, you can see and contemplate about them for hours. They have their unique beauty of its own. Have you checked how a bug becoming artful butterfly? Each one of them different after metamorphosis from less grotesque caterpillar. Malasians have a wonderful insect museum in their capital, watch how they are civilized .They have Hindu nationals. I dont accuse you as uncivilized but your approach to whole Creation Formula is wrong. I look with awe to any animal on earht, none of them ever seem ugly or disgusting or useless as you may consider. It is on the other hand discrimination and disrespect to your environment “mothernature” to you God to us, if you take them mundane Works of God.
The Canadian nationals of you ( highly you were proud) didnt abandon the bullfight for touristic purposes yet together with France, Portugal, Columbia and Spain, today. Tourists, especially from the UK , America & Canada keep bullfighting in business. Every year, tens of thousands of bulls are murdered during bullfights. You are one of the biggest fur producers from wild /domestic animals, you may check your country doings at peta.tv and peta.org. They kill seals12 days old, or as soon as they have molted their white natal fur. During last year's hunt, almost all the seals killed were 3 months old or younger. Have you got one “hakapiks” yourself? Not only animals, your nation has bad records with native indians treating them as animals in the past! Dont you sell me humanitarinism and environment respect and care. I wish you had been better. As best fit this reincarnation religion happens to be your favorite, I am not surprised.
I spend hours on getting the proof of my religion for you and you take it as “listing pages of referance”. I can tell you from my knowlege very easily but because of my respect to you I want to find out the correct wording. I build my arguments on firm bases, otherwise you will accuse me of beautifiying / civilizing my beliefs.
I dont make a classroom debate here, I dont have to win over anything. My religion had been burdened by so many fundemental devotees already that an outsider need not to be enemy to it. We try nowadays to educate up these bigot people around us, convince them for the truth of Quran not the tradition. Your and Pats accusation basic pitfalls are from these traditional parts.
As I feel always at “Turiya “ state I dont think your Karma can bite me back.
You better check out your belief once more , would not it be more realistic instead of putting your character as a god and worship to yourself, search find the real God out there every sign is available. You would be more accurate if you pray to the real God. Without afraid of becoming one day a cockroach. Love them, but if dangerous, if necessarry for protection of most sacred human life, - kill them without feeling guilt. Thats all.
Pat,
I am grateful to you, really, I havent got so much information against İslam. You have furnished me with tools to defend it in any hostile environment much better now. As a by product, I understand , reaffirm the light in my belief I found is real, giving me comfort and direction, removes the fear you got.
If you check my words correctly I dont have any objection to concept on other species in the universe , not antagonistic to any UFO. In fact Quran is supporting the thesis that there exists some other life forms out in the space, to my understanding. I sent you all verses thats why. Space theories fall into my belief, to your surprise. It is indicated many times journey to space etc..
NASA, and leading European Cosmologists have held studies on these verses. Example:
15: 16-18 It is we who have set out the Zodiacal Signs in the heavens, and made them fair seeming to (all) beholders; And (moreover) we have guarded them from every evil spirit accursed: But any that gains a hearing by stealth, is pursued by a flaming fire, bright (to see).
Your Zechariah and Daniken getting these information from such books, making an earning out of it by selling them with lies in sugar coated fashion. Search for the truth, before starting insult and being apostle of hate. Among all these rubbish space theories, why on earth they want to accuse Vatican I didnt get well. There was no place to rule the world except Jarusalem? What is the matter to get jews out of there? They live there for thousands of years, before christians. Muslims not try to fight against Vatican , in the past Ottomans saved Pope from killing many times, as well as they fought against Vatican led crusades. This shows, they are neither enemy nor friend, as natural as other population on earth. Why did your priests fabricated that muslim religion was created by Vatican? I shouldn’t even bother to answer you after these flippant quotations.
Your valuable ! websites’ other sample pearl news that we mortal people were not aware of:
- HITLER WAS A BRITISH AGENT
- FATHER BUSH WAS A KNOWN PEDOPHILE! (BLAME ON PAT NOT ROY)
- British Intelligence's JP Morgan Stolen U.S. Treasury Funds
- Agent Provocateurs have executed the 9/11 WTC collapse
- RIGGED THE WTC WITH THE LASER GUIDANCE EQUIPMENT
- Vatican Verified High Level Illuminati from Monte Carlo P2 Lodge Pins 9/11
Plot on Knights of Malta and Vatican involvement
- US government mismanagement problems of terrorism and Iraq
- WHY J.F.K. WAS MURDERED, unique solution.
- CORRUPTION OF THE AMERICAN JUSTICE SYSTEM
- BRITISH MONARCHY CONTROL BUSH & KERRY
- BUSH SECRETLY PERMITTED QUEEN OF ENGLAND TO STEAL U.S. GOLD
- BARRY CHAMISH ON THE PAPAL-JEWISH CONSPIRACY
- Black Pope's Step by Step Plan For World Domination
- THE VATICAN I.E. THE CHAIR OF PETER HAD MURDERED SEVEN U.S. PRESIDENTS.
These are some of the lies that Pat entertain his friends. Pat’s religion you guess what, Non of the regular peoples faith, because he is too clever for that, he is a candidate elected by gods for UFO fights to save us from total destruction. We stupid brats believe in prophets, search for the truth, is it real Tomb of Jesus or not? Such mundane things.
Pat, I read some of the books that you mention, They are just some imagination articulate archeological findings, old peoples false beliefs, exactly as today.
It may no way be replaced by true religions instructed by prophets.
Was it your friends gassed themselves killed several year ago? As they believed UFO friends came to them take them away for eternity, 20-30 commited suicide?
I see you as opportunity to get real criticism, thanks for that. If you got more send them here. No hard feelings, really. But say at least “I am sceptic about these claims I made against İslam or christianity”. You will be more respected and taken seriously.
Slavery is not recommended / encouraged in Quran , It was de facto. Quran arranged easy passage to get slave out to freedom. Your modern anchestors succeed with constitutions after bloody wars in1880. George Washington got inspiration from Quran to abolish these uncivilized customs, and erecting state.
They recently realized Goethe was preaching in his poems for God . Tolstoy wrote his book on pro İslam. Hadiths (words attributed to Mohammed -saas)are non justified sayings / slanders mostly to blame Mohammad. Earliest were written 238 years after his death, as to write them was sin and forbidden. You are better of if you drop your preoccupation for people. It will be loss for us to have real enemy, but we can do without one.
Last word : you wont loose a dime if you can love people.
Name:sage •
Date: 03/29/07 2:54
A: There is nothing left to debate with you Roy, as far as our beliefs go.
You have yours, and I respect your freedom to believe in whatever gods, goddesses or aliens you choose to. I only wish you could extend the same respect to others.
I am proud to be Canadian. No country is faultless, I know this. I'm part of GreenPeace and I know all about the rape my great Canada does, but I do not support it. I buy products that are made locally and try to find as many of the non-organic products that are made from recycled goods as I can.
I married a native indian and all my in laws live on a reserve. My daughters are half native. Don't even begin lecturing me on the unfair history of natives in Canada. I know far more about it than you could ever learn by sticking your nose in a book.
If you feel better about yourself by judging me then have at it and enjoy yourself. But at least have the knowledge to judge me by MY actions, not those of a city, race, ethnic background or country. You appear racist by making such ludicrous accusations against me, based solely on the fact that I live in Canada and am proud to be Canadian.
I do not blame you or hold you personally accountable for any of the horrors that your country has committed, nor any of the horrors your religion has committed. When I communicate with someone, its person to person, not person to all history attached to them, loosely or otherwise.
Name:Pat •
Date: 03/29/07 16:32
A: Roy wrote:
Was it your friends gassed themselves killed several year ago? As they believed UFO friends came to them take them away for eternity, 20-30 commited suicide?
Pat wrote:
So long roy you are not worth it. On one hand you state there is a possibility and this even in the Koran of other life forms in the universe and then you take it and tare it apart.
Bye bye bipolar man
Name:BMillikan •
Date: 03/30/07 8:51
A: Pat and sage:
I have to agree with roy on one point. You find it very easy to attack other people's faiths but when someone attacks yours you get angry. So, why do you think attacking other people's faiths will be any different?
Pat: You've deduced the Bible is nothing but a book of hatred and destruction and that shows me you do not have a full understanding of it.
This really is for the benefit of other readers rather than yourself because you cannot stand to hear the truth of the Bible. Many archaeological digs have proven the Bible to be true, yet you just throw those facts out the window. All your study has done nothing but led you to a belief system that is totally bogus, unfounded and ignorant of facts. However, you and sage have the right (given by God) to believe what you want. That's fine. You do that. I'm not going to try to persuade you. But, the Bible has many merits to it and has been proven right many times. Read the books "Evidence that demands a verdict." It was written by a pagan attorney who found so much evidence to believe in the Bible that he became a believer and wrote these books.
I hope others can see that all you've done is attacked my faith and roy's faith and tried to push your own beliefs on everyone else and then blew up when someone attacked your faith. There's an old adage that says, "If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen."
Some day you (sage and Pat) will know the Truth. I just pray it won't be too late.
Sincerely,
Brian
Name:Pat •
Date: 03/30/07 11:39
A: BMillikan wrote
A: Pat and sage:
Pat: You've deduced the Bible is nothing but a book of hatred and destruction and that shows me you do not have a full understanding of it.........
This really is for the benefit of other readers rather than yourself because you cannot stand to hear the truth of the Bible.
Pat wrote:
Brian I am going to give you a link. There there is a full analysis of all the attrocities and cruel things done by God and others in the bible.
All is taken from the King James Version. If you take the time to read the various subject, you will come to the same conclusion is that Yahweh God in the Bible is not a God. He has too many negative human attribute. Also this link explains very well how the bible came into being. Are you man enough to face the truth.
I was a Catholic and serve mass I went to Bible school at a Presbeterian Church I was also a Jehovah Witness at a time. So please refrain from telling me I do not know the bible.
The problem with most Christian is that they goble everything down and think that it is a sin to even to think to challenge the bible.
Most people read the ggod things in the bible but they do not read remember or do not want to confront the dark side of the bible.
Please read Brian the various subject with your bible in hand to check out the versesand you will be very surprise what there is in it.
Brian I am not saying that there is not a God but it ain't the one in the bible. I real God would not behave in such manner.
To me this is a very eye opener.
Contents
Forewor-d-
A Short History of the BIble
Atrocities (a few)
Sex, Obscenities, Filth
Morality And Contradictions
God, Satan, Jesus, Heaven
The Inferior Status Of Women
Bibliography
About The Dark Side of the Bible
I hope others can see that all you've done is attacked my faith and roy's faith and tried to push your own beliefs on everyone else and then blew up when someone attacked your faith. There's an old adage that says, "If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen."
Pat wrote:
Your wrong Brian. The Bible and the Koran my friend are written by men. Millions of Christians and Mulsims have died in the name of God and Alah in those books.
Those books teach intolarence, cruelty hatred and destruction.
Both books are opressive and are written by men to brainwash humanity into submission.
Sorry to take away your comfort food. But that food is 80 percent poison.
Name:roy •
Date: 03/30/07 19:17
A: we have become the most discussed of the forum with 143 posts.
i hope it is not the ~ most disgusted thanks to pat’s posts
pat,
lets start from the beginning
#1 you believe in one God.
christianity, jewish and muslim believe in one God too, although christians says trinity, and their God is different than allah. there is no big dispute for you here.
#2 you say the bible has contradictions, hadiths of mohammad (saas) alleged words, mullahs books has many contradictions/ false claims.
neither christians nor common muslims claim that bible and hadiths/mullahs books were kept as original. they are intervened by man. they might have mistakes as human is (made by God) prone to mistakes.
#3 you say there are sumerians, egyptians, mayans, greeks who believeth in plural Gods.
christians, jews, muslims all agree on that, no difficulty whatsoever.
#4 you say there is life in the universe other than we know on earth.
all abraham religions do not say a word against it. on the contrary muslims say there is life (not necessarily intelligent) beyond earth (42:29). book had some clues that will take place in the future. as the prophets dhul-kifl, shoaib and solomon had this power before. such as : represent the ultimate goals of science and technology. the quran relates that matter (but not humans) can be transported at the speed of light (27:30-40); that smell can be transported to remote places (12:94); that extensive communication with animals is possible (27:16-17); that sleep, in certain conditions, can slow down metabolism and increase life span (18:25); and that the vision of blind people can be restored (3:49).
#5 you say earth will be demolished by external force.
we all agree on that day, near future ~educated guess in 500 years or so, the world will come to an end.
#6 you say we must live in peace, prosperity, brotherhood, take good care of environment.
all teachings strive for that we must behave well to others, live ethical and treat nature well while serving human cause. they take another step after your dry wish, they founded charities, saved millions of peoples lives, educated poor, secured brotherhood (at least among their comunities) gave hope to mankind.
#7 you say archeological findings proves some early civilizations draw or carved statues, gravures depicting sun, flying birds, imaginary object, manlike animals.
no religion has claimed those findings are not genuine. they differ on they mean rudimentary knowledge.
#8 you say there are bad forces and God force which have been fighting with each other even before the man is produced.
all basic religions say the same thing. The names are different. there is one super powerful God, and there are numerous satans, evils, his army and helping human kind. there are also angels who had different jobs to do.
so i wonder why you are so agressive to make us irritated, annoyed trying your best that all faiths except yours are full with deception.
you can find your place(not necessary not compulsory to get a good afterlife) in any of the great faiths. you are free to believe your own way, criticize people in false prayer practices. portray your image of heavens. put down your claims in the enlightenment process taking place around the world combining religion with science. this jesus tomb movie/forum is one of them.
can you hold the core belief; THERE IS ONE GOD as starting point.
he/she created us all, universe and everything inside of it. he/she has no partner in his unique power. there is no one to challange him.
then ask him to help you find the facts. ask him alone, without any influence by any religious or science fiction book.
you all need to do this. keep your plain faith until doomsday. live as usual, lead your life as in perfect integrity as possible. do valuable things, add value to life.
this is all necessary to have the right or ticket of expecting heaven/ (what you say in your space faith. You dont believe one? if there is heaven or equal such thing, doesnt it worth to give a try to buy a ticket?)
on the inconsistency list of yours
#i- you defend peace but, you keep insulting others, never see you only contribute to ill feelings, hatred, war between the mankind.
#ii- you say religious books are false and baseless, but your books are noncomparably imaginary, produce of raw shots, no evidence, no foundation. whereas every holy book had proven arceological/scientific facts, centuries after they were printed.
#iii- you do everything possible with your best to belittle, agitate friends to attack you. what happens is commensurate to you achieve. We have a saying “whoever seeds wind, harvests storm”
you are most discussed man, so keep at good work.
Name:sage •
Date: 03/31/07 3:31
A: Brian, I take offense at what you say about me because it is not true. You're only insulting me because you don't like the beliefs I've shared with you and the fact that I'm not christian.
I'm more accepting of others beliefs than most people are, including you. I haven't once suggested that anyone was on the wrong path (piss off, I like my path and don't care if you don't) nor have I offered my wishes in anyone finding the truth before its too late, only a christian (not all christians, but certainly you) would say such crap to someone. Since when is it too late to find one's truth? And since I've already stated that I don't believe in heaven or hell, why would I be concerned for the safety of my soul if I continue on the path I'm on? Such ethnocentricism is insulting and annoying. For arguement's sake, lets have a little recap of my participation in this thread and see where I've told anyone their religion is wrong and/or offensive.
Sage said: Good grief.. ok so I WAS enjoying this thread, but Pat (and Roy) really.. its a discussion turned debate, not a place for a few chapters of a book or a thesis! If there are a couple of people who want to engage in a "lets trade quotes from bible for endless hours", I'd suggest exchanging private email info to do that, instead of turning a public forum into a private exchange.
If the posts can get back to the original topic and remain an acceptable length then I'd appreciate learning others view points.
I don't see anything that suggest I'm attacking anyone's beliefs there. Let's look some more shall we?
Sage said: This started as a religous discussion and everyone here (I think) enjoys being reading other people's opinions and being challenged, but no one likes to watch cock fights. You are fully attacking cultural and religious differences now, both of you should be ashamed of yourselves, but you seem too bull headed to pay attention. So for now, I will be ashamed of you.
I was trying to maintain respect for each other in this thread. I fail to see where I attacked anyone's beliefs.
Then of course there was this:
Roy challenged you and invited you to disprove him, but religion is not about disproving or recruiting, at least not the belief system I think you have, and certainly not the path I follow. I thouroughly enjoy debates and discussions about religion, I love learning other people's perspectives, but I can't stand it when people abandon their reason and start full on insulting other people based on their religious beliefs or their cultural differences. That is distasteful and offensive.
I def. can't leave this part out: We can be different, have different views, come from different histories, eat different food and wear different clothing. I (not you, tho I'm not saying you don't) appreciate the differences in people. History is full of blood and lies, from every corner of the globe. Christians and Muslims are not the only groups to have caused pain.
"Religion is the opiate of the masses" and I chose not be a part of it. I'm not religious tho I love learning about religions.
Clearly I made a mistake in sharing my own opinion with you and expecting it to be respected in return.
I said: I don't believe in the existance on one all powerful and knowing god, and in turn I don't believe in the existance of satan. Tho I believe that there is something greater than me and I strive to be the best person I can because at the end of the day, it is me that must live with the choices I have made.
And Roy said to me : ( after a bunch of crap) - Your heart will never be peaceful before reacing true understanding of God. We are designed that way. There is nothing we can do about it.
He then went on to insult me and accuse me of crimes I didn't even commit and said awful things. All this because he did not respect my beliefs as I had respected his.
And you dare to accuse ME of being unaccepting of others beliefs? Have you even read my posts? I"m tempted to go on with the examples but the post would be way too long.
Some day, Brain, I hope that you will find a reasonable and respectable way to talk with people without offending them. I just hope it won't be too late.
Sincerely,
Sage
Name:Pat •
Date: 04/01/07 13:49
A: Roy wrote:
#2 you say the bible has contradictions, hadiths of mohammad (saas) alleged words, mullahs books has many contradictions/ false claims.
neither christians nor common muslims claim that bible and hadiths/mullahs books were kept as original. they are intervened by man. they might have mistakes as human is (made by God) prone to mistakes.
Pat wrote:
First good thing that you bring out is with the admission that man intervened in rewriting those books and made mistakes in doing so .
Perhaps one can go further and can even imagine that a lot was intentionally miss translated and addition of pious writing and lying also occurred to install even greater fear and control of the masses for power and greed.
Till this day millions of Christians and Muslims take their so called holy books as the originals. Every word to them was either written by God or thought his inspiration. The majority doesn’t even know that the Bible and the Koran were tampered and re written over the centuries.
The Bible was edited. What is today referred to as the Christian Bible was not put together in its present form until about 300 A.D.
During that 300-year period and in the context of the times, do you suppose any of the original truths could have gotten distorted or lost?
The final message so strongly preached about today as the literal word of God is significantly different from the words that were originally written like any book of that nature.
What they did was the following:
Cut out a word here and there,
Change the spelling slightly and create a different word
with a different meaning,
Drop a line or two,
Add a word, a phrase or a few sentences,
Reverse the order of some phrases,
Leave out a couple of controversial passages,
such as those referring to reincarnation,
By doing this the bible took on a significantly new meaning.
The collection of letters and books that now constitute the Bible was written in, what to us today is a foreign language, in an ancient, non-technical, agrarian culture, for people who were almost completely illiterate, uneducated and who were highly superstitious.
The culture in which and for which the Bible was written was so vastly different from our current civilization that these ancient times are almost impossible for us to imagine today.
Although much of the Bible was probably intended as symbolic metaphors and teaching stories designed for its own time and culture, it is today being interpreted literally, word for word, by the anti-abortionists in a context° that is totally foreign to that in which it was written
The Catholic church altering the content of the Christian Bible
As you well know, knowledge and people who think for themselves are a serious threat to the control and dominance of any political hierarchy based on fantasy, manipulation, and illusion.
In the early years of the Roman Catholic Church, books were the holders and purveyors of knowledge. They were the major enemy of the so-called truth that was being peddled by the political/religious hierarchy of that era. Books were also an easy target for paranoid minds to focus on.
In 400 A.D., the library at Alexandria was by far the greatest storehouse of information that the world had ever known.
As the Roman Catholic Church solidified its financial power and its political control, the church leaders claimed that they already knew with absolute irrefutable certainty, all and everything that there was to know.
In 415 ad the catholic church leaders because of their paranoia declared the entire contents of the library at Alexandria to be symbols of anti-Christian paganism, as heresy, and as unnecessary
The head of the library was murdered by mindless, church followers and all of the books in this great library were burned under orders from the leaders of the Roman Catholic Church.
Such a wanton act of vandalism against all of humankind is equivalent, by today's standards, to burning every book in every home, office and library in the entire world and then erasing the content of every computer memory bank in the entire world.
The hands-on perpetrator of this absurd act of murder and arson was Cyril, the Roman Catholic Church's Archbishop of Alexandria. For his devoted service to Rome, he was declared a saint by the church.
.This type of arrogant disregard for knowledge and for the rights of others was the direct cause of, or was a major contributing factor in creating the 900-year period called the "Dark Ages
Reincarnation was edited of the original Christian theology.
First, reincarnation was a widely accepted belief among the
contemporary followers of Jesus and the Apostles.
Second, the theory of reincarnation interfered with the fairytales
that the church was using to amass its wealth and power.
Third, what we today refer to as the Christian Bible was not
assembled in written form until about 300 a.d
Reincarnation was edited out of the Bible.
Historical evidence shows that references to reincarnation were declared to be heresy by Emperor Justinian at the Council of Constantinople in the year 553 A.D. After that date, there were no further references to reincarnation in Christian theology.
Many Christians fail to consider that their Bible is the product of Roman Catholicism. It is a Roman Catholic Book. Some of the earliest Christians were opposed to including the books of the Old Testament. Other early Christian sects actually believed that the god of the Old Testament was the Demiurge, a lesser God than the Father of Jesus, who acted out in revenge and anger toward all who would oppose him. They believed that the Greater God, one of Love and Forgiveness, sent His Son to break the rule of the OT Demiurge-god, where the eye-for-an-eye Law was replaced with Grace and Compassion.
It is difficult for modern Christians to imagine that the Christians of the first 2 centuries did not have a "bible." There is absolutely no evidence that the earliest Christians of the first 2 centuries even had written gospels. Instead, the sayings of Jesus were originally preserved and circulated through the oral tradition. However, we do have fragments of texts that appear in the gospels from this era. The decision to include books from the Torah into a Christian bible was not finalized until well into the 3rd and 4th centuries. Jesus never asked his followers to compose a bible. Not once did He tell his disciples "Collect the writings of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and the later Epistles and Acts and combine them with selections from the Torah and place them in one book." That is what the Roman Catholic Church did, but Jesus never gave these instructions.
The Old Testament consists of a body of literature spread over a period from approximately 1450 B.C.E. to 200 B.C.E.
There exists no original writings of the Old Testament. There does exist, however, hundreds of fragments from copies that became the old testament.
These fragments consist of Cuneiform tablets, papyrus paper, leather etchings and the famous Dead Sea Scrolls.
The scribes of the old testament wrote in classical Hebrew except for some portions written in Aramaic. The traditional Hebrew scribes wrote the texts with consonants but the Rabbis later added vowels for verbal pronouncing.
Of course the Rabbis did their best in choosing the vowels that they thought gave the words their proper meaning and pronouncement. In the second century C.E., or even earlier, the Rabbis compiled a text from manuscripts as had survived the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 C.E. and on this basis they established the traditional or Masoretic text, so called from the Hebrew word Massorah.
This text incorporated the mistakes of generations of copyists, and in spite of the care bestowed on it, many errors of later copyists also found their way into it.
The earliest surviving manuscripts of this text date from the ninth to eleventh centuries C.E. It comes mostly from these texts which religionists have used for the present Old Testament translations.
The New Testament has even fewer surviving texts. Scholars think that not until years after Jesus' alleged death that its authors wrote the Gospels.
There exists no evidence that the New Testament came from the purported original apostles or anyone else that had seen the alleged Jesus.
Although the oldest surviving Christian texts came from Paul, he had never seen the earthly Jesus.
There occurs nothing in Paul's letters that either hints at the existence of the Gospels or even of a need for such memoirs of Jesus Christ.
The oldest copy of the New Testament yet found consists of a tiny fragment from the Gospel of John. Scholars dated the little flake of papyrus from the period style of its handwriting to around the first half of the 2nd century C.E.
The language of most of the new testament consists of old Greek.
Name:BMillikan •
Date: 04/02/07 18:01
A: For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."[c]
Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.
1 Corinthians 18
Name:roy •
Date: 04/02/07 23:11
A: For the first time we agree with Pat for some points. I keep saying that Qoran was not changed even a word, but may have been influenced by several translators and their cultures minimally. It witnesses same doctrine with old and new testament, pointing to the same God sent them.
Mohammad’s teaching were unlike any other books, memorized by hundreds of muslims systematicaly and diligently. The simple words of him Hadiths were forbidden to be written or recorded in order prevent mess up with revelations.
Records or bible were not kept in order and deliberately distorted. However muslims believe the original is kept by God and it is true that it was given to Jesus.
There are too many proofs that Bible was edited, added many false claims, manupulated according to politics, finally diverted from its true path. Muslims hadiths books were similar in their destiny. They were overly biased, lies alleged to Mohammad (sas) added, religion overburdened with unnecessary hardships, bigotry, bidat (added ruling, principles).
They took their toll to the extent that, they claimed Mohammad, as the imam of all prophets, for whom the earth was created for. In one hadith they claim he went several times between God and Moses to reduce repetition of prayer in a day from 50 times down to five times. It was claimed on some occasions inspired by christian faith, God had shank (God forbid! Never).
Early Christian belief was too much different than todays versions. I put down the historic events and different sects of Christians, some still in effect today, which have been very close to Muslim version of religion. It shows only one truth that God has sent several prophets, prescribing same religion at basic concepts ,ie.. pray one God only, give charity, not kill or commit adultry, etc.. I hope this will give a secular insight to our beliefs.
Roy’s note: Please bear in mind that the notes were written according to Biblical names, here Jesus was referred as son instead of prophet, many times. (it is misleading attribute as the true meaning should be God slave and Messenger according to muslim faith.)
NONTRINITARIANISM
Nontrinitarianism is any of various Christian beliefs that reject the doctrine that God is three distinct persons in one being, (the Trinity).
The notion of the Trinity is not of particular importance to most nontrinitarians. Persons and groups espousing this position generally do not refer to themselves affirmatively by the term, although some nontrinitarian groups such as the Unitarians have adopted a name that bespeaks of their belief in God as subsisting in a theological or cosmic unity. Modern nontrinitarian groups views differ widely on the nature of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.
Various nontrinitarian views, such as Arianism, existed alongside what is now considered mainstream Christianity before the Trinity was formally defined as doctrine in AD 325. Nontrinitarianism was very rare for hundreds of years. It surfaced again in the Gnosticism of the Cathars and in the Enlightenment and Restorationism.
Forms of Nontrinitarianism
ALL NONTRINITARIANS ARGUE THAT THE DOCTRINE OF THE EARLIEST FORM OF THE CHURCH WAS NOT TRINITARIAN. Typically, nontrinitarians explain that the Church was altered as a direct and indirect consequence of the edicts of Constantine the Great, which resulted in toleration of the Christian religion, and the eventual adoption of Trinitarian Christianity as the official religion of the Roman Empire. Because it was at this time of a dramatic shift in Christianity's status that the doctrine of the Trinity attained its definitive development, nontrinitarians typically find the development of the doctrine questionable. It is in this light that the Nicene Creed is seen by nontrinitarians as an essentially political document, resulting from the subordination of Church to State interests by the leaders of Catholic Church, so that the Church became, in their view, an extension of the Roman Empire.
Although Nontrinitarian beliefs of a great variety continued to multiply, and among some people (such as the Lombards in the West) it was dominant for hundreds of years afterward, the Trinitarians now had the immense power of the Empire behind them. NONTRINITARIANS TYPICALLY ARGUE THAT THE PRIMITIVE BELIEFS OF THE CHURCH WERE SYSTEMATICALLY SUPPRESSED (EVEN TO THE POINT OF DEATH), AND THAT THE HISTORICAL RECORD, PERHAPS ALSO INCLUDING THE SCRIPTURES OF THE NEW TESTAMENT, WAS ALTERED AS A CONSEQUENCE.
Nontrinitarian followers of Jesus fall into roughly four different groups.
• Some believe that Jesus is not God, instead believing that he was a messenger from God, or Prophet, or the perfect created human. This is the view espoused by modern day Unitarianism and ancient sects such as the Ebionites. A specific form of Nontrinitarianism is Arianism, which had become the dominant view in some regions in the time of the Roman Empire. Arianism taught the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit but held that the Son was not co-eternal with the Father. However, Arians did not consider worship of Jesus as wrong.[citation needed] Another early form of Nontrinarianism was Monarchianism.
• Others believe that the one God who revealed himself in the Old Testament as Jehovah revealed himself in his Son, Jesus Christ. This is a doctrine known originally as Sabellianism or modalism, although it is explained somewhat differently in the churches which hold these beliefs today. Examples of such churches today are Oneness Pentecostals and the New Church.
• Several denominations within Mormonism (including the largest, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) accept the divinity of Jesus, but believe the three persons of the Trinity to be separate. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints specifically holds that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three separate and distinct individuals (D&C 130:22), but can and do act together in perfect unity as a single monotheistic entity (the "Godhead") for the common purpose of saving mankind, Jesus Christ having received divine investiture of authority from Heavenly Father in the pre-existence.
• Several denominations within the Sabbatarian Church of God and certain groups within Seventh-day Adventism accept the divinity of the Father and Jesus the Son, but do not teach that the Holy Spirit is a Being. The Living Church of God, for example, teaches, "The Holy Spirit is the very essence, the mind, life and power of God. It is not a Being. The Spirit is inherent in the Father and the Son, and emanates from Them throughout the entire universe". This view has historically been termed Semi-Arianism or Binitarianism.
kingdomready.org/topics/god.php
[ GOD IS 1 NOT 3 ]
Only the Father, Yahweh, is God. Jesus is the Son of God, His only begotten Son, the Messiah. The Bible emphatically and repeatedly sets forth Yahweh's supremacy and exclusivity. There are no other gods besides Him. God is all powerful, everywhere present, immortal, invisible, and all knowing. He did not become a man, His word (reason, intent, plan, self-expression) did. Jesus is the perfect human who always did what God wanted done and always spoke what God wanted said. In fact, it was Jesus who said that the Father is the only one who is truly God (John 17.3). Paul likewise confessed belief in a single deity when he said, "Yet, for us there is but one God, the Father...and one Lord, Jesus Christ..." (1 Corinthians 8.6). Below are resources that aim to describe what the Bible teaches not the philosophies of men.
Origins and basis for Nontrinitarianism
Nontrinitarians claim the roots of their position go back farther than those of their counterpart Trinitarians. The biblical basis for each side of the issue is debated chiefly on the question of the divinity of Jesus. Nontrinitarians note that in deference to God, Jesus rejected even being called "good", that he disavowed omniscience as the Son,[1] and that he referred to ascending unto "my Father, and to your Father; and to my God, and to your God", and that he said "the Father is the only true God." Additionally, Jesus quoted Deuteronomy 6:4 when saying in Mark 12:29 "The most important one (commandment)," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one."
Siding with nontrinitarians, scholars investigating the historical Jesus often assert that Jesus taught neither his own equality with God nor the Trinity (see, for example, the Jesus Seminar). Jesus Seminar is a research team of about 135 New Testament scholars founded in 1985 by the late Robert Funk and John Dominic Crossan under the auspices of the Westar Institute.[1][2] The seminar's purpose is to use historical methods to determine what Jesus, as a historical figure, may or may not have said or done. In addition, the seminar popularizes research into the historical Jesus. The public is welcome to attend the twice-yearly meetings. They produced new translations of the New Testament plus the Gospel of Thomas to use as textual sources. They published their results in three reports The Five Gospels (1993),[3] The Acts of Jesus (1998),[4] and The Gospel of Jesus (1999).[5] They also run a series of lectures and workshops in various U.S. cities.
The text of the Nicene Creed and the Trinity state that the three are "coequal". This is the term actually used in the Doctrine. One might consider co-owners of a business as being equal owners but with different roles to play in operating the business. But nontrinitarians point to a very important statement by Jesus that contradicts the use of the term equal or "coequal". It is a simple passage where Jesus stated his explicit subordinance to the Father: "for my Father is Greater than I(John 14:28)."
In addition, the Trinity and the Nicene Creed were doctrines established over 300 years after the time of Christ on Earth as a result of conflict within the early Church. It is curious to note that Jesus had forewarned the reader in Matthew "beware the doctrines of men".
Some nontrinitarians accept that Scripture teaches Christ is divine in some sense, and the son of God, but deny the personality of the Holy Spirit.
Main Points of Dissent
1. The Trinity as being irrational
Criticism of the doctrine includes the argument that its "mystery" is essentially an inherent irrationality, where the persons of God are claimed to share completely a single divine substance, the "being of God", and yet not partake of each others' identity. It is also pointed out that many polytheistic pre-Christian religions arranged many of their gods in trinities, and that this doctrine may been promoted by Church leaders to make Christendom more acceptable to surrounding cultures.
2. Possible lack of Scriptural support
The New Catholic Encyclopedia, for example, says, "The doctrine of the Holy Trinity is not taught [explicitly] in the [Old Testament]"[14], "The formulation 'one God in three Persons' was not solidly established [by a council]...prior to the end of the 4th century"[15], and The Columbia Electronic Encyclopedia adds, "The doctrine is not explicitly taught in the New Testament". The question, however, of why such a supposedly central doctrine to the Christian faith would never have been explicitly stated in scripture or taught in detail by Jesus himself was sufficiently important to 16th century historical figures such as Michael Servetus as to lead them to argue the question. The Geneva City Council, in accord with the judgment of the cantons of Zürich, Bern, Basel, and Schaffhausen, condemned Servetus to be burned at the stake for this, and for his opposition to infant baptism.
3. Divinity of Jesus
For some, debate over the biblical basis of the doctrine tends to revolve chiefly over the question of the deity of Jesus (see Christology). Those who reject the divinity of Jesus argue among other things that Jesus rejected being called so little as good in deference to God (versus "the Father") , disavowed omniscience as the Son, "learned obedience" , and referred to ascending unto "my Father, and to your Father; and to my God, and to your God" .
They also dispute that "Elohim" denotes plurality, noting that this name in nearly all circumstances takes a singular verb and arguing that where it seems to suggest plurality, Hebrew grammar still indicates against it. They also point to statements by Jesus such as his declaration that the Father was greater than he or that he was not omniscient, in his statement that of a final day and hour not even he knew, but the Father , and to Jesus' being called the firstborn of creation and 'the beginning of God's creation,' which argues against his being eternal.
In Theological Studies #26 (1965) p.545-73, Does the NT call Jesus God?, Raymond E. Brown wrote that there are "texts that seem to imply that the title God was not used for Jesus" and are "negative evidence which is often somewhat neglected in Catholic treatments of the subject."
Trinitarians, and some non-Trinitarians such as the Modalists who also hold to the divinity of Jesus Christ, claim that these statements are based on the fact that Jesus existed as the Son of God in human flesh. Thus he is both God and man, who became "lower than the angels, for our sake" and who was tempted as humans are tempted, but did not sin .
Some Nontrinitarians counter the belief that the Son was limited only during his earthly life (Trinitarians believe, instead, that Christ retains full human nature even after his resurrection), by citing ("the head of Christ [is] God" [KJV]), written after Jesus had returned to Heaven, thus placing him still in an inferior relation to the Father. Additionally, they claim that Jesus became exalted after ascension to Heaven, and regarding Jesus as a distinct personality in Heaven, all after his ascension.
4. Possible un-Biblical terminology
Christian Unitarians, Restorationists, and others question the doctrine of the Trinity because it relies on non-Biblical terminology. The term "Trinity" is not found in scripture and the number three is never associated with God in any sense other than within the Comma Johanneum. Detractors hold that the only number ascribed to God in the Bible is One and that the Trinity, literally meaning three-in-one, ascribes a threeness to God that is not Biblical.
5. Many scriptural citations lack the Holy Spirit
It is also argued that the vast majority of scriptures that Trinitarians offer in support of their beliefs refer to the Father and to Jesus, but not to the Holy Spirit. This suggests that the concept of the trinity was not well-established in the early Christian community.
6. Whether it is truly monotheistic or not
The teaching is also pivotal to inter-religious disagreements with two of the other major faiths, Judaism and Islam; the former reject Jesus' divine mission entirely, the latter accepts Jesus as a human prophet just like Muhammad but rejects altogether the deity of Jesus. Many within Judaism and Islam also accuse Christian Trinitarians of practicing polytheism, of believing in three gods rather than just one. Islam holds that because Allah is unique and absolute (the concept of tawhid) the Trinity is impossible and has even been condemned as polytheistic. This is emphasized in the Qur'an which states "He (Allah) does not beget, nor is He begotten, And (there is) none like Him." (Qur'an, 112:3-4)
Scriptural texts cited as implying opposition
Among Bible verses cited by opponents of Trinitarianism are those that claim there is only one God, the Father. Other verses state that Jesus Christ was a man. Trinitarians explain these apparent contradictions by reference to the mystery and paradox of the Trinity itself. This is a partial list of verses implying opposition to Trinitarianism:
One God
• Matthew 4:10: "Jesus said to him, 'Away from me, Satan! For it is written: "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."'"
• John 17:3: "Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."
• 1Corinthians 8:5-6: "For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live."
• 1Timothy 2:5: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"
The Son is subordinate to the Father
• Mark 13:32:"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."
• John 5:19: "Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does."
• John 14:28: "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."
• John 17:20-23: "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."
• Colossians 1:15: "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation."
• 1stCorinthians 15:24-28: "Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all."
Jesus is not the old testament God
• John 2:16: And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
• Acts 3:13: The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up...
• John 20:17: Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.
• Daniel 7:13: I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
• Psalms 110:1: Jehovah saith unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, Until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Ontological Differences Between "God" and Jesus
• John 17:1-3 Jesus prays to God.
• Hebrews 2:17,18 Hebrews 3:2 Jesus has faith in God.
• Acts 3:13 Jesus is a servant of God.
• Mark 13:32 Revelation 1:1 Jesus does not know things God knows.
• John 4:22 Jesus worships God.
• Revelation 3:12 Jesus has one who is God to him.
• 1stCorinthians 15:28 Jesus is in subjection to God.
• 1stCorinthians 11:1 Jesus' head is God.
• Hebrews 5:7 Jesus has reverent submission, fear, of God.
• Acts 2:36 Jesus is given lordship by God.
• Acts 5:31 Jesus is exalted by God.
• Hebrews 5:10 Jesus is made high priest by God.
• Philippians 2:9 Jesus is given aurthority by God.
• Luke 1:32,33 Jesus is given kingship by God.
• Acts 10:42 Jesus is given judgment by God.
• Acts 2:24, Romans 10.9, 1 Cor 15:15 "God raised [Jesus] from the dead".
• Mark 16:19, Luke 22:69, Acts 2:33, Romans 8:34 Jesus is at the right hand of God.
• 1 Tim 2:5 Jesus is the one human mediator between the one God and man.
• 1 Cor 15:24-28 God put everything, except Himself, under Jesus.
Alternate views to the Trinity
There have been numerous other views of the relations of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit; the most prominent include:
• Arius believed that the Son was subordinate to the Father, firstborn of all Creation. However, the Son did have Divine status. This view is very close to that of Jehovah's Witnesses.
• Ebionites believed that the Son was subordinate to the Father and nothing more than a special human.
• Marcion believed that there were two Deities, one of Creation / Hebrew Bible and one of the New Testament.
• Modalism states that God has taken numerous forms in both the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament, and that God has manifested Himself in three primary modes in regards to the salvation of mankind.
• Swedenborgianism holds that the Trinity exists in One Person, the Lord God Jesus Christ. The Father, the Being or soul of God, was born into the world and put on a body from Mary.
• The Urantia Book teaches that God is the first "Uncaused Cause" who is a personality that is omniscient, omnipresent, transcendent, infinite, eternal and omnipotent, but He is also a person of the Original Trinity - "The Paradise Trinity" who are the "First Source and Center, Second Source and Center, and Third Source and Center" or otherwise described as "God, The Eternal Son, and The Divine Holy Spirit".
• The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, aka "Mormons," hold that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three separate and distinct individuals (Covenant 130:22), but can and do act together in perfect unity as a single monotheistic entity (the "Godhead") for the common purpose of saving mankind, Jesus Christ having received divine investiture of authority from Heavenly Father in the pre-existence.
• Docetism comes from the Greek: δοκηο (doceo), meaning "to seem." This view holds that Jesus only seemed to be human and only appeared to die.
• Adoptionism holds that Jesus was chosen on the event of his baptism to be anointed by the Holy Spirit and became divine upon resurrection.
• Rastafarians accept Haile Selassie I, the former (and last) emperor of Ethiopia, as Jah (the Rasta name for God incarnate, from a shortened form of Jehovah found in Psalms 68:4 in the King James Version of the Bible), and part of the Holy Trinity as the messiah promised to return in the Bible.
• Islam's Holy Book, the Quran, denounces the concept of Trinity (Qur'an 4:171, 5:72-73, 112:1-4), also in nonstandard forms, a Trinity composed of Father, Son and Mary (Qur'an 5:116). Inclusion of Mary in the presumed trinity may have been due to either a quasi-Christian sect known as the Collyridians in Arabia who apparently believed that Mary was divine, or use of the title "Mother of God" to refer to Mary.
Theory of pagan origin and influence
Nontrinitarian Christians have long contended that the doctrine of the Trinity is a prime example of Christian borrowing from pagan sources. According to this view, a simpler idea of God was lost very early in the history of the Church, through accommodation to pagan ideas, and the "incomprehensible" doctrine of the Trinity took its place. As evidence of this process, a comparison is often drawn between the Trinity and notions of a divine triad, found in pagan religions and Hinduism. Hinduism has a triad, i.e., Trimurti.
Some find a direct link between the doctrine of the Trinity, and the Egyptian theologians of Alexandria, for example. They suggest that Alexandrian theology, with its strong emphasis on the deity of Christ, was an intermediary between the Egyptian religious heritage and Christianity.
Nontrinitarians assert that Catholics must have recognized the pagan roots of the trinity, because the allegation of borrowing was raised by some disputants during the time that the Nicene doctrine was being formalized and adopted by the bishops. For example, in the 4th century Catholic Bishop Marcellus of Ancyra's writings, On the Holy Church,9 :
Such a late date for a key term of Nicene Christianity, and attributed to a Gnostic, they believe, lends credibility to the charge of pagan borrowing. Marcellus was rejected by the Catholic Church for teaching a form of Sabellianism.
The early apologists, including Justin Martyr, Tertullian and Irenaeus, frequently discussed the parallels and contrasts between Christianity and the pagan and syncretic religions, and answered charges of borrowing from paganism in their apologetical writings.
Hellenic influences on Christian thought
Advocates of the "Hellenic origins" argument consider it well supported by primary sources. They see these sources as tracing the influence of Philo on post-Apostolic Christian philosophers - many of them ex-pagan Hellenic philosophers - who then interpreted Scripture through the Neoplatonic filter of their original beliefs and subsequently incorporated those interpretations into their theology. The early synthesis between Hellenic philosophy and early Christianity was certainly made easier by the fact that so many of the earliest apologists (such as Athenagoras and Justin Martyr) were Greek converts themselves, whose original beliefs had consisted more of philosophy than religion.
Controversy over Nontrinitarianism's Status
Most nontrinitarians identify themselves as Christian. In this regard The Encyclopedia Britannica states, "To some Christians the doctrine of the Trinity appeared inconsistent with the unity of God....They therefore denied it, and accepted Jesus Christ, not as incarnate God, but as God's highest creature by Whom all else was created....[this] view in the early Church long contended with the orthodox doctrine."This view (nonrtinitarian) “in the early church”, still supported by some Christians, generates controversy among mainstream Christians. Most members of mainstream Christianity considered it heresy not to believe in the Trinity.
Although some denominations require their members to profess faith in the trinity, most mainline denominations have taken a "hands-off" policy on the subject of the trinity, realizing that since personal study and free thought have been encouraged for years, it is not surprising that some of the conclusions reached would be nontrinitarian. The recognition here is that the trinity is tool for pointing to a greater truth. In other words, Christianity has historically sought to look beyond its doctrines (see Apophasis) to the greater truth they are intended to address, IE God. It is not uncommon for a Methodist, Presbyterian, or Anglican to profess non-trinitarian views, even among the clergy. The response from the governing bodies of those denominations is usually neutral, so long as the disagreement is voiced in respect.
Nontrinitarian Christian groups
• American Unitarian Conference
• Arian Catholicism
• Arianism
• Bible Students
• Christadelphians
• Christian Conventions a non-denominational group which publishes no dogmatic positions, but which a majority of observers classify as non-Trinitarian
• Church of Christ, Scientist
• Church of God General Conference (Abrahamic Faith)
• Church of the Blessed Hope (Church of God of the Abrahamic Faith)
• Creation Seventh Day Adventism
• Doukhobors
• Higher Ground Online
• Jehovah's Witnesses
• Living Church of God
• Living Hope International Ministries
• Molokan
• Monarchianism
• New Church
• Oneness Pentecostals
• Polish Brethren
• Socinianism
• The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church; see also Mormon)
• The Way International
• Unification Church
• Unitarian Christians
• Unitarian Universalist Christian Fellowship
• Iglesia ni Cristo
• True Jesus Church
Nontrinitarian people
• Natalius, ~200
• Sabellius, ~220
• Paul of Samosata, 269
• Arius, 336
• Eusebius of Nicomedia, 341, baptized Constantine
• Constantius II, Byzantine Emperor, 361
• Antipope Felix II, 365
• Aëtius, 367
• Ulfilas, Apostle to the Goths, 383
• Priscillian, 385, considered first Christian to be executed for heresy
• Muhammad, 632, see also Isa
• Ludwig Haetzer, 1529
• Juan de Valdés, 1541
• Michael Servetus, 1553, burned at the stake in Geneva under John Calvin
• Sebastian Castellio, 1563
• Ferenc Dávid, 1579
• Fausto Paolo Sozzini, 1604
• John Biddle, 1662
• Thomas Aikenhead, 1697, last person to be hanged for blasphemy in Britain
• John Locke, 1704
• Isaac Newton, 1727
• William Whiston, 1752, expelled from University of Cambridge in 1710
• Jonathan Mayhew, 1766
• Emanuel Swedenborg, 1772
• Benjamin Franklin, 1790
• Joseph Priestley, 1804
• Joseph Smith, 1805
• Thomas Paine, 1809
• Thomas Jefferson, 1826
• James Madison, 1836
• William Ellery Channing, 1842
• Robert Hibbert, 1849
• John Thomas (Christadelphian), 1871
• Ralph Waldo Emerson, 1882
• Benjamin Wilson, 18??
• James Martineau, 1900
• Charles Taze Russell, 1916
• Neville Chamberlain, 1940
• William Branham, 1965
• Herbert W. Armstrong, 1986
UNİTARİANİSM
Unitarianism is the belief in the oneness of God opposed to the Christian doctrine of the Trinity (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in one God). Unitarians believe in the moral authority, but not the deity, of Jesus.
Unitarianism as a system of Christian thought and religious observance has its basis, as opposed to that of orthodox Trinitarianism, in the unipersonality of the Christian Godhead, i.e. in the idea that the Godhead exists in the person of the Father alone. Unitarians trace their history back to the Apostolic age, claim for their doctrine a prevalence during the ante-Nicene period. A small number of Unitarians claim a continuity through Arian communities and individual thinkers to the present time.
ARİANİSM
God the Father ("unbegotten"), always existing, was separate from the lesser Jesus Christ ("only-begotten"), born before time began and creator of the world. The Father, working through the Son, created the Holy Spirit, who was subservient to the Son as the Son was to the Father. The Father was seen as "the only true God."
Arianism refers to the theological positions made famous by the theologian Arius (c. 250-336 AD), who lived and taught in Alexandria, Egypt, in the early 4th century. The controversial teachings of Arius dealt with the relationship between God the Father and the person of Jesus Christ, a relationship known as the doctrine of the Trinity.
While Arianism continued to dominate for several decades even within the family of the Emperor, the Imperial nobility and higher ranking clergy, in the end it was Trinitarianism which prevailed theologically and politically in the Roman Empire at the end of the fourth century. Arianism, which had been taught by the Arian missionary Ulfilas to the Germanic tribes, was dominant for some centuries among several Germanic tribes in western Europe, especially Goths and Longobards, but ceased to be the mainstream belief by the 8th Century AD. Trinitarianism remained the dominant doctrine in all major branches of the Eastern and Western Church and within Protestantism, although there have been several anti-trinitarian movements, some of which acknowledge various similarities to classical Arianism.
ANOMOEAN
In 4th century Christianity, the Anomœans, also known as Anomeans, Heterousians, Aetians, or Eunomians, were a sect of Arians who asserted that Jesus Christ (the Son) was of a different nature and in no way like to that of God (the Father).
The word is from Greek α(ν)- 'not' and όμοίος 'similar' i.e. "different; dissimilar".
In the 4th century, this was the name by which the followers of Aëtius and Eunomius were distinguished; they not only denied the consubstantiality of Jesus but even asserted that he was of a nature different from that of God. This was in contradistinction to the semi-Arians, who indeed denied the consubstantiality of Jesus, but believed at the same time that he was like the Father.
ARİANİSM İN THE EARLY MEDİEVAL GERMANİC KİNGDOMS
During the time of Arianism's flowering in Constantinople, the Gothic convert Ulfilas (later the subject of the letter of Auxentius cited above) was sent as a missionary to the Gothic barbarians across the Danube, a mission favored for political reasons by emperor Constantius II. Ulfilas' initial success in converting this Germanic people to an Arian form of Christianity was strengthened by later events. When the Germanic peoples entered the Roman Empire and founded successor-kingdoms in the western part, most had been Arian Christians for more than a century.
The conflict in the 4th century had seen Arian and Nicene factions struggling for control of the Church. In contrast, in the Arian German kingdoms established on the wreckage of the Western Roman Empire in the 5th century, there were entirely separate Arian and Nicene Churches with parallel hierarchies, each serving different sets of believers. The Germanic elites were Arians, and the majority population Nicene.
The Franks were unique among the Germanic peoples in that they entered the empire as pagans and converted to Nicene Christianity directly.
"ARİAN" AS A POLEMİCAL EPITHET
Like the Arians, many groups have embraced the belief that Jesus is not the one God, but a separate being subordinate to the Father, and that Jesus at one time did not exist. Some of these profess, as the Arians did, that God made all things through the pre-existent Christ. Some profess that Jesus became divine, through exaltation, just as the Arians believed. Drawing a parallel between these groups and Arians can be useful for distinguishing a type of unbelief in the Trinity.
Those whose religious beliefs have been compared to or labeled as Arianism include:
*Unitarians, who believe that God is one as opposed to a Trinity, and many of whom believe in the moral authority, but not the deity, of Jesus. Arianism is considered to be an antecedent of Unitarian Universalism.
*Jehovah's Witnesses, who do have some similar beliefs to Arius, namely, that Jesus had a pre-human existence as the Logos. However, Arius viewed the Holy Spirit as a person, whereas Jehovah's Witnesses do not attribute personality to the spirit. Jehovah's Witnesses also, unlike Arians, deny belief in a disembodied soul after death, eternal punishment in hell for the unrepentantly wicked, and episcopacy.
*Christadelphians, along with the Church of the Blessed Hope, believe that Jesus' pre-natal existence was a conceptual Logos, rather than a literal Logos.
*Mormons, followers of the various churches of the Latter Day Saint movement, who believe in the unity in purpose of the Godhead but that Jesus is a divine being distinct from, and created by, God the Father, but similar in every other respect (thus roughly Homoiousian rather than Anomoean). Thus, Jesus is literally (spiritually) the Firstborn of the Father. Also in line with Arianism, Mormons believe that the pre-incarnate Jesus (the Logos of John 1) created the Earth under the direction of the Father. In fact, they go further than most on this point, equating the pre-existent Jesus with Jehovah, the God of the Old Testament (perhaps as a spokesman for the Father, for whom they reserve the Old Testament title Elohim). Although the LDS Church views the doctrinal schisms of the late Roman Empire as a sure sign of the Great Apostasy, they do not officially claim any allegiance to Arius.
*Muslims, who believe that Jesus (generally called Isa), was a Messenger and Prophet of the one God, but not himself divine.
*Michael Servetus, a Spanish scholar and Protestant reformer, is viewed by many Unitarians as a founding figure. In 1553, he was sentenced to death and burned at the stake by his fellow reformers, including John Calvin, for the heresy of Antitrinitarianism, a Christology that may seem similar in some ways to Arianism. However, Servetus rejected Arius's teaching on the Son being a creature created by the Father, and his theology was actually closer to Sabellianism.
*Unpublished writings by Isaac Newton indicate that he held anti-Trinitarian beliefs and regarded the worship of Jesus Christ as God to be idolatrous.[2] He did not publicize these views, which could have cost him his fellowship at Trinity College, Cambridge, and has been described by modern scholars as a secret Arian.[3]
*Spanish liberation theologian Juan José Tamayo was accused in 2003 of defending "a renewed version of the old Arian error" which is "incompatible with the Catholic faith", by the Spanish Bishops' Commission for the Doctrine of the Faith, because of his theological positions published in several of his books about the relationship between Jesus and God the Father. Tamayo has up to now rejected the Bishops' demand to stop writing on this issue.[4]
THE THEOLOGİAN JUAN JOSE TAMAYO, ADMONİSHED BY İTS İNCOMPATİBLE İDEAS "WİTH THE CATHOLİC FAİTH"
ABC MADRID.
His book "God and Jesus", written by the secretary of the Association of Theologians and Theologians Juan XXIII, Juan Jose Tamayo Acosta, when considering that their conclusions "are incompatible with the catholic doctrine".
Frontal rejection of the tradition of the Church in its cristológicas definitions, arbitrary selection - not justified of passages of the New Testament with the express abandonment of others and interpretation of such according to confused criteria that do not specify ". In the same way,negation of the divinity of Jesus Christ, presentation of Jesus like a mere man, negation of the historical and real character of the resurrection, and this one like fundamental data of the Christian faith ".
THE THEOLOGICAL DEBATES REOPEN AFTER COUNCIL OF NICEA.
The Council of Nicea had not ended the controversy, as many bishops of the Eastern provinces disputed the homoousios, the central term of the Nicene creed, as it had been used by Paul of Samosata, who had advocated a monarchianist Christology. Both the man and his teaching, including the term homoousios, had been condemned by the Synods of Antioch in 269.
Hence, after Constantine's death in 337, open dispute resumed again. Constantine's son Constantius II, who had become Emperor of the eastern part of the Empire, actually encouraged the Arians and set out to reverse the Nicene creed.
Constantius used his power to exile bishops adhering to the Nicene creed, especially Athanasius of Alexandria, who fled to Rome. In 355 Constantius became the sole Emperor and extended his pro-Arian policy toward the western provinces, frequently using force to push through his creed.
As debates raged in an attempt to come up with a new formula, three camps evolved among the opponents of the Nicene creed.
The first group mainly opposed the Nicene terminology and preferred the term homoiousios (alike in substance) to the Nicene homoousios, while they rejected Arius and his teaching and accepted the equality and coeternality of the persons of the Trinity.
The second group also avoided invoking the name of Arius, but in large part followed Arius' teachings and, in another attempted compromise wording, described the Son as being like (homoios) the Father.
A third group explicitly called upon Arius and described the Son as unlike (anhomoios) the Father. Constantius wavered in his support between the first and the second party, while harshly persecuting the third.
The debates between these groups resulted in numerous synods, among them the Council of Sardica in 343, the Council of Sirmium in 358 and the double Council of Rimini and Selecia in 359, and no less than fourteen further creed formulas between 340 and 360, leading the pagan observer Ammianus Marcellinus to comment sarcastically: "The highways were covered with galloping bishops." None of these attempts were acceptable to the defenders of Nicene orthodoxy: writing about the latter councils, Saint Jerome remarked that the world "awoke with a groan to find itself Arian."
After Constantius' death in 361, his successor Julian, a devotee of Rome's pagan gods, declared that he would no longer attempt to favor one church faction over another, and allowed all exiled bishops to return; this had the objective of further increasing dissension among Christians. The Emperor Valens, however, revived Constantius' policy and supported the "Homoian" party, exiling bishops and often using force.
Valens died in the Battle of Adrianople in 378 and was succeeded by Theodosius I, who adhered to the Nicene creed. This allowed for settling the dispute.
Two days after Theodosius arrived in Constantinople, November 24, 380, he expelled the Homoian bishop. Theodosius had just been baptized, by bishop Acholius of Thessalonica, during a severe illness, as was common in the early Christian world. In February he and Gratian published an edict that all their subjects should profess the faith of the bishops of Rome and Alexandria (i.e., the Nicene faith), or be handed over for punishment for not doing so.
In 381, at the Second Ecumenical Council in Constantinople, a group of mainly Eastern bishops assembled and accepted the Nicene Creed of 381, which was supplemented in regard to the Holy Spirit, as well as some other changes, see Comparison between Creed of 325 and Creed of 381. This is generally considered the end of the dispute about the Trinity and the end of Arianism among the Roman, non-Germanic peoples.
Name:sage •
Date: 04/03/07 0:28
A: typical...
Name:sam •
Date: 04/03/07 16:15
A: Pat,
you asked question after you brought two verses from the Quran,
"Quran 22: 47 A day in the sight of the Lord is like a thousand years of your reckoning. Quran-32:5: To Him, on a Day, the space whereof will be a thousands years of your rekoning
Quran 70: 4 The angels and the spirit ascend unto him in a day the measure whereof is Fifty thousands years.
So, which one is it? Is the day of Allah equal to 1,000 earth years or 50,000 earth years?
------------------------
God gave many example and all proven to be true today, for example:
1- in 21:30 THE HEAVEN AND EARTH WERE JOINED ENTITY. AND WE SEPARATE THEM.
2- IN 51:47 ...WE ARE ITS EXPANDER.
3- IN 21:33 ....ALL HEAVENLY BODIES, IN AN ORBIT ARE SWIMMING.
None of these information were known to people or came in the other books, Galileo is the first to bring the idea that the earht and the moon are orbiting the sun, and that was against the christian beliefs.
1000 & 50000 are example that people should understand that their days on earth differ from the days if they look at it from outside the earth, and we know now (thanks to science) what the people who wrote the bible do not know, that the 24 hr day is not the same on venus, mars, jupiter, and 365 day/yr on earth is not the same as for those planets, and you should know by now that our galaxy is rotating around its axis and the sun with its planets are going in an orbit around the galaxy, and it take 250 million years to complete one revolution, and we can call that a galxical year. now we are in the 19th revolution, and that make the age of our galaxy 19X250 M = 4.7 billion years.
I hope you understan all that, and undestand that 1000 & 50000 just an example given to people who understand nothing about the world or about the cration. the earth was flat and the sun goes around the earth.
God bless you.
Name:BMillikan •
Date: 04/03/07 18:56
A: sage,
I am not intolerant of others beliefs. Believe what you want. However, at the end of the day what you believe WILL matter. What day that is, I don't know. But, you're not learning about religions when you're blasting with a cannon a people who are trying to share their beliefs with you.
I don't understand why you believe in "Higher Power" at all. It doesn't make sense to me. So, explain it to me. I'll read it. Explain your beliefs to me. What is it based on? Who defined these beliefs?
Belief is a funny thing. You can believe in anything. You can believe in the ancient Egyptian sun god "Ra", or the Muslim god "Allah", or the Christian/Jewish God, or any number of things. You can choose to believe in none of those. My grandfather never believed (up until the time he passed) that man walked on the moon. He wasn't alone. Many believed it was done out in Hollywood somewhere and it was all just a big hoax. After all, Wells had almost a whole country panicked with the "War of the Worlds" radio show. A lot of people "believed" it to be true. Turns out that they were wrong. In this case, I cannot prove to you the God of the Bible is THE God. But, I believe that someday it WILL be proven. Take it or leave it. I know your answer to this already. But, I've seen plenty of evidence and experienced plenty of things that make me believe this to be true. I was once just like you. I didn't believe in the God of the Bible, but after a long search (for facts and TRUTH), I found Him. I won't cover what I discovered because it would make an already lengthy post even more lengthy. But, I know it to be true now. That's why I believe.
Name:sage •
Date: 04/03/07 20:33
A: Brian before I share my beliefs with you once again (the first time wasn't that pretty was it?) I'd like for you to point out where I've shot other people's beliefs down with a cannon. I think you should reread my posts, and Roy's response to them as I'm certain it is in those posts that you think I'm shooting cannons.
I am interested in learning everyone's beliefs and why they believe them. I give respect for our differences and expect to be treated the same in return.
What I do not, and will not, tolerate is others insulting my beliefs just because I don't belief in one all powerful and mighty god. Then I'm further insulted when you assume that I don't know enough about religion to make an informed decision.
I spent a third of my life RC, deeply involved in the church. I read in mass for years and taught catchecism for two years. I had a meeting with my priest one day because I had many questions I needed answered, and at the end of it, when he could only quote verses from the bible I decided that he didn't have the answers I needed. You did the same thing here. You insulted me, and I defended and explained and in return, you post bible verses.
When I left the church I had all this faith and no where to put it, so I spent the next several years learning as much as I could about all religions and in the end I made my decision.
I love to share my beliefs with other people, people who keep an open mind and don't assume that there is only one path to happiness in this life.
Name:Shlomo •
Date: 04/03/07 21:59
A: It is understandable of a persons belief in their particular religion. But what I have come across with most, irrespective of their sophisticated education, is their lacking of the basic understanding of what they term the "old testament" and is extremely widespread among the world. If they understood the basic tenents, the story would be drastically different in all respects. To adpot the method of contextual elimination from other sources to support particular pillars of a religion brings about chaos and a never ending dispute. There is nothing wrong with the debate of reasoning and logic, but the error comes in the door when the basic tenents are not considered and applied according to their original intent and are pushed aside to ones own interpretation and perception. Even though it is a normal reaction to do so, this type of reaction should be held in check until a full understanding has been accomplished. Then the validity of the basic evidence for which a pillar stands erect will be strong enough to withstand the outer forces. If the basic tenents are not adhered to and the pillar leans either way, you have the common term referrred to as "iron and clay mixture." The proof of this is in the variety of different religions existing. Each one leaning their pillars towards the other for an adoptive validity. Without their method of adoptive validity, they would all fall by the wayside and their facade of a foundation would crumble.
Name:Eliza Also •
Date: 04/05/07 16:47
A: I would like to believe that it is possible to be a Christian and not believe every word of the Bible is true. There are many things in the Bible I do not believe, such as the Garden of Eden story and the dietary restrictions. That Jesus was the Son of God and was resurrected on the third day are two things that I do believe.
Interestingly, I heard Dr. Charles Pelligrino speak recently, and he said that in fact they did not find evidence of bone in the Jesus ossuary, but rather evidence of blood. This sounds to me as if it could be in accordance with a body laid in a tomb for three days, but then resurrected.
Jesus' purpose in coming to earth was to offer the perfect, one-time sacrifice on the cross for the remission of our sins.
In searching my spirit, I can find nothing in that statement to say that he did not marry and have children.
Name:nothing_but_the_truth •
Date: 04/06/07 4:13
A: 'Alexandra' wrote:
"I do NOT believe ANYONE who claims otherwise."
_You_ have every right not to. But _we_ want to find out the _truth_.
You can be a devoted christian without sharing all the views of the majority of the christian world. Not everything taught by the church is backed by the bible. And some things might be misinterpretations or misconceptions that simply got widely accepted without anyone giving them too much thought.
For instance, people in the western countries tend to think it is written in the Qur'an that women should be treated the way the are in some parts of the muslim world, when in fact it is mostly a heritage from some nomadic tribes, thus pre-dating Islam by centuries at the very least.
Name:nothing_but_the_truth •
Date: 04/06/07 4:20
A: Many religions would benefit from people re-reading the holy texts without any of the bias and interpretation accumulated over centuries of centralized and organized religion.
Usually people misunderstand Islam, because they haven't read the Qur'an, but christians should go and read the bible _as_ _it_ _is_ for a change. It's startling to notice some of the things it actually says or doesn't say, once you stop making assumptions and 'educated' guesses.
Name:roy •
Date: 04/06/07 13:26
A: Eliza Also wrote,
That Jesus was the Son of God and was resurrected on the third day are two things that I do believe.
Roy Wrote:
There is one and only one God. Prophets ,including Adam Enoch Noah Eber Shelah Abraham Lot Ishmael Isaac Jacob Joseph Job Jethro Moses Aaron Ezekiel David Solomon Elijah Elisha Jonah Zechariah John Jesus and Mohammed were His slaves and prophets among whom we accept no prerogative of any sort. He made the books to be understood easily by common man, improved rules in each consequtive book as the man improves. He wants us to obey the one religion brought & implemented by prophets ~ as sample living humans. Is there anything unfair or complex in this?
God forgives all sins except heretics of trinity.Atributing Him human traits, like to have a son.Then who is the mother God? Mary? Was Abrahams wife Sarai also a goddess having child at old ages? Was Zecharias’s wife as well a goddess? What about Adams creation, is he also Son of God? In translation of Aramaic written original bible into Latin has been distorted by saying “slave and servant of God” they put “son of man~son of God”.It refers not only to Jesus in these bible traslations but it refers all human kind. But man made interpretations has singled out name to Jesus only. Trias is strictly forbidden in Islam and said is the continuous pitfall in all previous religions, often lured many believers. It holds the same danger for muslims loving too much of anchestors, priests, or prophets to make them equal or germane in ranking to God. Even asking a wish from those deities are biggest sin committed against God. He warns in hundreds of verses of Quran and Bible to avoid this pitfall or else you wont be forgiven. (Killing may be forgiven but deity worshipping not.) So please be ware of this threat from God and check your books better.I put proofs above. True Christianity never offered equal deity to God. Christ was praying to God for help, why should he have done, if He had been a god himself? Jesus never said pray to me, ask from me. Please check the above Bible verses starting with One God
Saying God is three in one context but, One made up of three, no one can realise what is going on… How is three agree on ruling on universe that there is no disagreement between them? If God decides to extinct Jesus and Virgin Mary who will stop Him from it? How three in spiritual and matter decided to come together to send somepart of three among those miniscule sized peasants and didnt guess one piece of God will be killed there by torture?
Please be simple and come to your senses to find real God in your heart with peace. It will calm you down if you found Him. Searching thousands of pages but not spending time on the most referred and read book ~Quran is so big loss for you.
Christian Church claims The gospels, most especially John, indicate that Christ was not taken because the "peasants" (actually the temple guard and probably some Roman soldiers as well) over powered Him, but because He went to his death willingly. “
Guard, soldier ect.. has no difference than peasant comparing with God as former are made up all from human. No matter what is the position of human ~ temple guard or Roman soldiers or even todays atomic powered soldiers may not possibly over power even small evidence of God let alone God himself.
God does not need peoples recognition of the latest versions of what He says. That’s why He says keep your own faith as Christian or Jew but don’t commit sin of Trinity or false claims against Me or Jesus because I am the only One. He does not accept religions from those who curses Him in that Trias way, and will not forgive those (only sin NOT to be forgiven) .
If the trias is not accepted at Byzantene time Council 300 AD. It would have been less likely to get acceptance by plural gods greek society of that time and would have been difficult to unite them. Imperialism was on the scene that time, not now.
On the other hand if Church hasnt defend their position strongly against other religions, there would have been no reason of existence of them and the priests and kings had to give up huge wealth and power over society. The latter religion forbids any devine class, rabbis, or super powered ruler, not to mention some papacy who claim to be the shadow and replica of God on earth! (another form of Imperialism)
Eliza Also wrote
Jesus' purpose in coming to earth was to offer the perfect, one-time sacrifice on the cross for the remission of our sins.
Roy Wrote:
In logic, and all modern justice system, there is one simple rule, noone may be hold responsible or punished for others crimes.
Even someone says “I want to atone for other person” (mother to son, son to father, lover to lover) do you accept it? Why God should?
On the other hand why human must have a sin as prerequisite and if had, not be able to save himself / herself by prayer? Or if will be saved by atonement of Jesus eventually, why to care to be a better person not commit sins?
Whichever perspective you look at the made-up belief by Byzantene ruler and council of yours, is misleading.
Wasnt there any other way to save people from sins rather to sacrifice one piece of God? How was it done before Christ (are they only comunity to be saved as majority of jews also claim as favored nation)? One of gods gave up divine and such sort of things are just fables from the Greek mythology. Is there any thema difference in stories with Zeus who hypothetically lived on Olympos, some other god had stolen fire from him, and such nonsence and complex stories. (Some Greeks gave rebirth a new religion on that belief and ask recognition by parliament in Greece today.)
“Going to his death willingly” is another made-up story. Too unlogical to be devine. All science, philosophy, antropology, history, logic, nature, biolgy, cosmology, physics, theology (christianity except this incident) strives the essence of existance not extinction, natural selection, wish of living - not dieing.
On the contrary Christ must ask God to live on to save his people by preaching (He lived and won over non believers~Islamic view, otherwise no christians would have been mentioned today~my opinion). Moses, and Abraham has been saved by God with two miracles ( Red sea divide and fire becoming serene.)
If our prophet does something “going to his death willingly” we must wish the same thing as good followers. Why don’t you dare to wish some unlogical thing then?;
We will all go death willingly to save others!!
I hope it helps the claims of Jesus was a dieable, marryable, child conceive causable and tomb burriable (yet to be proven) human with flesh and blood created by God’s word to Mary.
Eliza Also wrote:
Interestingly, I heard Dr. Charles Pelligrino speak recently, and he said that in fact they did not find evidence of bone in the Jesus ossuary, but rather evidence of blood. This sounds to me as if it could be in accordance with a body laid in a tomb for three days, but then resurrected.
Roy wrote:
The osuary has been prepared in that era in a way that, they bury the corpe to soil for one year, after decaying flesh they collect the bones and put them in Osuary.
This has no clue for proof of a body laid in a tomb for three days, but then resurrected.
Name:fabulous1 •
Date: 04/25/07 0:36
A: Can anyone tell me why Jesus would need his skin and bones in heaven? I can't believe people really think this way and that's why the tomb isn't Jesus and his family. Come out of the dark ages people!! Think for yourself!Good grief!
