Name:exact55 •
Title: Jesus ? evidence of crucifixion ? •
Date posted: 02/28/07 10:25
Q: Having browsed through this web site and various others that comment on the Talpiot find I can find no references to evidence of crucifixion. Is there evidence of crucifixion on the Jesus remains? If not then this find does not fit with our historical knowledge of Jesus and these are highly unlikely to be his remains.
Name:jesusismysaviour87 •
Date: 02/28/07 12:07
A: Yeh very true, I agree to what you said there. Can you "FILM PRODUCERS" actually prove the holes on Jesus' Hands? And other marks of crucifixion? You guys make your website look all fancy and "WOW archeological and scientific" but hey, your marketing skills don't work on everybody. Nice try.
Name:golfdane •
Date: 02/28/07 14:23
A: Since the original bones were reburied shortly after the discovery in 1980, is such investigation not currently possible.
This is also the reason why DNA sampling isn't possible of all the ossuaries. Only 2 contained enough fragments to complete a DNA sampling.
IMO, more questions arise than what is answered (which is a great way to prime the market for even more material). Definately not a slam dunk case, but indeed a distinct possibility. If they succeed in establishing genealogy more precisely, will it be really interesting.
IMO not a blow to Christianity as I see it, but some might disagree (those that believe in a physical ascension (though I doubt the Bible says that it was)).
Name:Nate Spain •
Date: 02/28/07 17:15
A: Why would DNA "prove" anything? You'd have to have something to COMPARE the DNA to.
Now, there is ONE well-known artifact that might be useful: The Shroud of Turin. DNA has been found on the bloodstains on the Shroud, and those stains have been proved to be REAL blood, not pigment. The proof was done by Dr. Heller, of the STURP team.
Okay, is the Shroud real? Was it the Shroud that wrapped Jesus? No one knows.
But, if DNA found in those bones matched the DNA found on the Santa Sindone (Holy Shroud), then maybe you'd have a REAL controversy on your hands. Or, a different one at least.
If it didn't match, then you'd have nothing--one way or the other.
There currently is no proof of Jesus. But, if any DNA testing is ever done, I think that it will be a comparsion between any DNA that might be found inside the underground casket, under the Rauza Bal mausoleum, in Kan Yar, Srinagar, Kashmir in India.
There, in fact, is where the remains of Jesus lie. Unfortunately, despite decades of books written on the subject of Jesus in India, and his post-crucifixion life there [he survived the crucifixion].
Any DNA found in that casket could be compared to DNA on the Shroud. If there is a match, then three things are proven.
1. That the Man of the Shroud (as he is called in Sindology studies) and the Man in the Tomb in Kashmir, were one and the same person.
2. That the Man of the Shroud somehow ended up in Kashmir, where, according to both oral and written tradition, he lived to the ripe old age of about 115.
3. That the Man of the Shroud and the Man of the Tomb was Jesus, who did not die on the cross, but survived the ordeal.
Consider visiting The Tomb of Jesus Christ Website: www.tombofjesus.com
Regards,
Nate
Name:Schwar3Kat •
Date: 03/03/07 6:57
A: I would have expected that when the bones from an ossuary marked Jesus son of Joseph were re-buried, if any had been from a crucifixion they would have made major waves. Other crucified bones from other ossuaries have made waves in archeological circles, but deathly silence from this one.
Name:Esco-Crudux •
Date: 03/03/07 10:47
A: Skull Hill - The real place of the Crucifixion.
http://www.yo-utube.com/watch?v=D5tgHwo5tRI-
Name:Esco-Crudux •
Date: 03/03/07 14:41
A: YOUTUBE SEARCH RONN WYATT.
My main question, has Ronn Wyatt seen this/approove of this Tomb find?
Name:roy •
Date: 03/04/07 16:55
A: I wrote from Istanbul Turkiye.
Referring your topic related to James Cameron’s new documentary about Jesus Christ. I describe my ideas as the following;
Jesus was a human being who was created resembling creation as Adam, made as God‘s speacial envoy and word. He was subject to death and resurrection as all other humans at the dooms day.[3:59]
He was not killed or crucified but the scenery was recepted as if he was crucified . In reality, he was never hanged, the person who hanged was resembled to him in the views of the enemy Israelites.[4:157,158]
He was not killed by enemies but survived till the natural death. [19:33]God has taken his life. They were not defeated by the enemies but on the contrary him and his supporter disciples and israelites defeated the enemies.[61:14]
These are the statements written 1430 years ago by Quran. It is believed by heart by billions of muslims, as a prerequisite to be accepted into Islam. Maybe out of bias, or fear of sameness they prefer to ignore what is claimed. It is surprising that modern world is barely aware of this fact or they blind their eyes with superstition. Christ, he disciples and his followers were also muslims who were ordered with salat (prayer) and zekat ( voluntary wealth distribution).
The views above is supported with the related verses of Quran as below. Some of the ideas has been tought by various western writers,which are noted as well.
You may further make your research in english Quran at the link below.
For example ; word of “Christ” I found this link: http://www.kuranmeali.com/arama.asp?kelim-e=Christ&meal=yusufali&sure=hepsi
word- of “Jesus” I found this link:
http://www.kuranmeali.com/arama.asp?ke-lime=jesus&meal=yusufali&sure=hepsi
Sura- - 4 Women (Al-Nesaa')
[4:157] And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - They slew him not nor crucified, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain,
[4:158] Instead, GOD raised him to Him; GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.
[4:159] Everyone among the people of the scripture was required to believe in him before his death. On the Day of Resurrection, he will be a witness against them.
[4:171] O people of the scripture, do not transgress the limits of your religion, and do not say about GOD except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was a messenger of GOD, and His word that He had sent to Mary, and a revelation from Him. Therefore, you shall believe in GOD and His messengers. You shall not say, "Trinity." You shall refrain from this for your own good. GOD is only one god. Be He glorified; He is much too glorious to have a son. To Him belongs everything in the heavens and everything on earth. GOD suffices as Lord and Master.
Sura - 19 Mary (Maryam)
[19:33] And peace be upon me the day I was born, the day I die, and the day I get resurrected."
[19:34] That was Jesus, the son of Mary, and this is the truth of this matter, about which they continue to doubt.
[19:35] It does not befit GOD that He begets a son, be He glorified. To have anything done, He simply says to it, "Be," and it is.
[19:36] He also proclaimed, "GOD is my Lord and your Lord; you shall worship Him alone. This is the right path."
*19:36 This is similar to the statement attributed to Jesus in the Gospel of John 20:17.
Sura - 5 The Feast (Al-Ma'edah)
[5:72] Pagans indeed are those who say that GOD is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah himself said, "O Children of Israel, you shall worship GOD; my Lord and your Lord." Anyone who sets up any idol beside GOD, GOD has forbidden Paradise for him, and his destiny is Hell. The wicked have no helpers.
*Look at the sameness of Kuran: Sura - 5 ( The Feast ) Al-Ma'edah and Bible Matta 7:21-23
*5:72-76 In John 20:17, we see that Jesus taught that he was neither God, nor the son of God. Many theologians have concluded, after careful research, that today's Christianity is not the same Christianity taught by Jesus. Two outstanding books on this subject are "The Myth of God Incarnate" (The Westminster Press, Philadelphia, 1977) and The "Mythmaker" (Harper & Row, New York, 1986). On the front jacket of "The Mythmaker" we read the following statement:
" ...Hyam Maccoby presents new arguments to support the view that Paul, not Jesus, was the founder of Christianity....it was Paul alone who created a new religion through his vision of Jesus as a divine Saviour who died to save humanity."
Sura - 3 The Amramites ( Ali-'Imran)
[3:55] Thus, GOD said, "O Jesus, I am terminating your life, raising you to Me, and ridding you of the disbelievers. I will exalt those who follow you above those who disbelieve, till the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is the ultimate destiny of all of you, then I will judge among you regarding your disputes.
[3:59] The example of Jesus, as far as GOD is concerned, is the same as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, "Be," and he was.
[3:60] This is the truth from your Lord; do not harbor any doubts.
Sura - 61 The Column (Al-Suff)
[61:6] Recall that Jesus, son of Mary, said, "O Children of Israel, I am GOD's messenger to you, confirming the Torah and bringing good news of a messenger to come after me whose name will be even more praised (Ahmad)." Then, when he showed them the clear proofs, they said, "This is profound magic."
*Sameness of Sura - 61 The Column (Al-Suff) and Bible İsiah 45:21,22
Psalm 99:9 Timothy 1:17 good news fro sneding another prophet called Ahmad(Hz Mohammad) or Pheraklid (praised)= Ahmad
[61:14] O you who believe, be GOD's supporters, like the disciples of Jesus, son of Mary. When he said to them, "Who are my supporters towards GOD," they said, "We are GOD's supporters." Thus, a group from the Children of Israel believed, and another group disbelieved. We helped those who believed against their enemy, until they won.
Sura - 3 The Amramites ( Ali-'Imran)
[3:51] "GOD is my Lord and your Lord; you shall worship Him alone. This is the right path."
[3:52] When Jesus sensed their disbelief, he said, "Who are my supporters towards GOD?" The disciples said, "We are GOD's supporters; we believe in GOD, and bear witness that we are submitters / muslims."
*3:51 This is precisely what Jesus is quoted to say throughout the New Testament. See for example the Gospel of John 20:17, and the book "Jesus: Myths and Message" by Lisa Spray, Ch. 4 (Universal Unity, Fremont, CA 1992).
Name:Little Benny •
Date: 03/05/07 6:29
A: I think this is a very important point. I wonder if the filmmakers looked into it? Surely it would have been noted back in 1980 if any of the "Jesus" bones showed evidence of death by crucifixion.
I also wonder if it is possible to find where the bones were buried. It seems like there would be a record of that somewhere.
There are so many of these questions that come up after viewing this film. I think the filmmakers should have done an exhaustive job of finding the facts before making this public. There are a lot of people who will be swayed by this film, and it could be very dangerous.
The Devil is working hard for sure.
Name:BlessedYou •
Date: 03/05/07 8:22
A: We have DNA evidence.. look no further than John the Baptist.
Name:Schwar3Kat •
Date: 03/08/07 10:29
A: Having thought about this for a few days this would be the most important question. If the remains in this ossuary were crucified then the evidence should have been visible when the bones were reburied and it would undoubtably have been very big news unless the remains were not Jesus or not complete (possible but not likely). Has anyone heard any more about records of the bones.
Name:KRS •
Date: 03/08/07 15:51
A: Very good point, there was a tomb where they found a crucificixion victim, and there were articles by forensic archeologists for several years afterwards, and I think it was after 1980. I would have assumed that they would have examined the remains to ascertain that the conclusions based on that study weren't the result of something peculiar to the study as a whole.
Name:KRS •
Date: 03/08/07 15:56
A: Incidentally, for those who will argue that maybe Jesus wasn't really crucified because on the gospels say that he was . . .
His death was recorded by Tacitus (Annals XV. 44)
Name:roy •
Date: 03/11/07 13:31
A: Why should God be so complex not to be understood by common man? Does He address only to the scholars? If so why He held the common responsible what He says and forbids? Is He so cruel to punish those from which reasons that common people has no clue to understand?
Islam has brought the most clear understanding of God and definition of Christ for whom who wants to find out or whom God wants to reveal and let him be.
Saying God is three in one context but, One made up of three, no one can realise what is going on… How is three agree on ruling on universe that there is no disagreement between them? If God decides to extinct Jesus and Virgin Mary who will stop Him from it? How three in spiritual and matter decided to come together to send somepart of three among those miniscule sized peasants and didnt guess one piece of God will be killed there by torture? Wasnt there any other way to save people from sins rather to sacrifice one piece of God? How was it done before Christ (are they only comunity to be saved as majority of jews also claim as favored nation)? One of gods gave up divine and such sort of things are just fables from the Greek mythology. Is there any thema difference in stories with Zeus who hypothetically lived on Olympos, some other god had stolen fire from him, and such nonsence and complex stories. (Some Greeks gave rebirth a new religion on that belief and ask recognition by parliament in Greece today.)
Please be simple and come to your senses to find real God in your heart with peace. It will calm you down if you found Him. Searching thousands of pages but not spending time on the most referred and read book ~Quran is so big loss for you.
Christian Church claims The gospels, most especially John, indicate that Christ was not taken because the "peasants" (actually the temple guard and probably some Roman soldiers as well) over powered Him, but because He went to his death willingly. “
Guard, soldier ect.. has no difference than peasant comparing with God as former are made up all from human. No matter what is the position of human ~ temple guard or Roman soldiers or even todays atomic powered soldiers may not possibly over power even small evidence of God let alone God himself.
“Going to his death willing” is another made-up story. Too unlogical to be devine. All science, philosophy, antropology, history, logic, nature, biolgy, cosmology, physics, theology (christianity except this incident) strives the essence of existance not extinction, natural selection, wish of living - not dieing.
On the contrary Christ must ask God to live on to save his people by preaching (He lived and won over non believers~Islamic view, otherwise no christians would have been mentioned today~my opinion). Moses, and Abraham has been saved by God with two miracles ( Red sea divide and fire becoming serene.)
If our prophet does something “going to his death willingly” we must wish the same thing as good followers. Why don’t you dare to wish some unlogical thing then?;
We will all go death willingly to save others!!
I only believe the brotherhood to be adhered by man of any race, wealth, religion or sex. Beause they are equal and only be better than other in terms of observing God’s wishes. The religions come from same God although Jewish and Christians refuse to accept it, Islam is saying similar things plus improvement open to scientific evidence and criticism of any sort (except depicting or dishonoring holy figures). Actually encouraging debate.
God does not need peoples recognition of the latest versions of what He says. That’s why He says keep your own faith as Christian or Jew but don’t commit sin of Trinity or false claims against Me or Jesus because I am the only One. He does not accept religions from those who curses Him in that Trias way, and will not forgive those (only sin NOT to be forgiven) .
If the trias is not accepted at Byzantene time Council 300 AD. It would have been less likely to get acceptance by plural gods greek society of that time and would have been difficult to unite them. Imperialism was on the scene that time, not now.
On the other hand if Church didnt defend their position strongly against other religions, there would have been no reason of existence of them and the priests and kings had to give up huge wealth and power over society. The latter religion forbids any devine class, rabbis, or super powered ruler, not to mention some papacy who claim to be the shadow and replica of God on earth! (another form of Imperialism)
I hope it helps the claims of Jesus was a dieable, marryable, child conceive causable and tomb burriable (yet to be proven) human with flesh and blood created by God’s word to Mary.
Name:pczerwonka •
Date: 03/13/07 2:33
A: What we see and what is there are two different things. Evidence may have been lost.
Name:E-Z •
Date: 03/13/07 7:52
A: It is interesting to note that evidence of Jesus' crucifixion can be found on the website www.tombofjesus.com where it suggests that the tomb of Jesus lies in Srinagar, Kashmir.
There is a shrine called Roza Bel here and the people of the village where the tomb is located claim that it is of a prophet that came from Israel and claimed to be born of a virgin.
There are also footprints beside the tomb of the person that is buried there and they bare marking of one that is crucified.
"Why were these feet carvings made and placed next to the tomb in Kashmir?
'The position of the scars, just behind the toes, do not match each other, but they would align if a single nail was driven through both of the feet with the left foot placed on top of the right.'
- Did Jesus Die? BBC 4, Wild Planet Productions"
Interesting information about the crucifixion can be found at the following link:
