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Hello, guest

Name: dattaswami • Title: Knowledge—Clearer and Sharper Than Ever Before • Date posted: 05/24/07 13:20

Q: Knowledge—Clearer and Sharper Than Ever Before

Ramanath (Bombay) asked that why such wonderful knowledge was not revealed by previous human incarnations. Lakshman (Bombay) asked that why My knowledge is becoming sharper and sharper day by day. Both these questions have the same answer. The first question was in a macro-scale and second question was in a micro-scale. As generations passed, human beings have become more and sharper by the development of scientific logical analysis. Therefore, a better knowledge is revealed at present. Similarly, as My devotees become sharper and sharper, My knowledge is also becoming sharper and sharper.

The same God existed in the previous human incarnations also, and possessed the complete knowledge. In this human body the same God exists everyday and God is not sharpened day by day! The Veda says that the body is the chariot (car). The senses are horses (wheels). The mind is the controlling reins of horses (steering rod). The soul is the owner of chariot sitting in the chariot (car). If the driver is an ignorant person, the car will meet with an accident and owner will die. Similarly, if you are proceeding in the spiritual path using your own intelligence or a wrong preacher as your driver, you are bound to go to the hell and fall in the liquid fire in the wrong path. If the driver is a human incarnation like Krishna, you are sure to travel in the right path and reach the final goal successfully like Arjuna. In the darkness, your eyes cannot lead you in the right path and you will certainly deviate. But the human incarnation is like the torch light and will lead you on the right path.

I am giving this divine knowledge step by step with certain gaps in between. The reason is that if the total divine knowledge is revealed, a real devotee will burst with surprise on understanding the total concept at single instance. A farmer won one lakh [hundred thousand] in a lottery. He was informed that he won the one lakh rupee lottery. He was so shocked and surprised that he died immediately. Therefore, this wonderful knowledge revealed in a single instance will shock the real devotee. The devotee may become mad or may even leave the body. The Gita says that the devotee hears the knowledge from God with infinite wonder (Ascharyavat…). I am giving the gaps so that you are deviated by such intervals. The interval will immerse you in Maya and thus dilute your seriousness and wonder. The Lord not only knows the divine spiritual knowledge but also knows the method of injecting the knowledge based on the withstanding capacity of the receiver.

Name: Todd • Date: 05/24/07 14:04

A: dattaswami

Congrats on your unrivaled knowledge that us mere mortal will never achieve.

Now if you could work on your humility/ego………….

Todd

Name: dattaswami • Date: 05/25/07 2:41

A: Todd ;

While preaching the Lord follows the psychology of receiver and speaks to His corresponding level only in a palatable way (Priyam) so that he will not run away on hearing a harsh truth (Satyam), which may correspond to higher level. But at the same time the Lord will not preach a lie (Amrutam) even if it is liked very much. At the same time he will introduce slightly higher level so that a little truth with little harshness is introduced. The psychology of the receiver which likes only palatable concepts is as important as the truth. If a lie which is highly palatable is spoken, the huge majority of followers will appear. But what is the use of such preaching? Because the receiver is not really benefited in long range (upper world). If the entire concept is reveled, it is so harsh that people will run away without even hearing it. Therefore, the middle gold path of Aristotle should be followed so that a minority of followers appears.

If the preacher shows some miracles, huge crowds will follow who will be interested in solving their problems by exploiting that super power. In that case the preacher may speak any nonsense, the followers will be clapping. The devotion of such followers is only artificial and such devotees are the prostitute devotees. The miracles are exhibited by the Lord spontaneously in the case of extreme necessity for the sake of a really deserving devotee. The miracle is expected to help the devotee in the spiritual path. The sage Udanka did not ask for the vision of Viswarupam. But still the Lord showed it and sage Udanka got its benefit permanently. The sage believed the human incarnation throughout his life. Arjuna could get only some temporary benefit by such vision and therefore the Lord did not show it by himself unless Arjuna requested for it. Duryodhana did not ask for it but Dhrutarashtra asked to see it. In the case of these two, there is no use at all and the vision did not change them. The miracle can not be a poof of the Lord because even the devotees either good or bad also show miracles.

Name: JMD • Date: 05/25/07 4:22

A: Jesus: "As for you, then, be on guard against the world. Prepare yourselves with great strength, so the robbers can't find a way to get to you, for the trouble you expect will come."
Gospel of Thomas

Name: dattaswami • Date: 05/25/07 12:52

A: JMD;

Why in bible it was told that 'many will use force to enter the kingdom of God, but they cannot'?
---------
The force of ignorance injected by the blind traditional priests and incomplete scholars cannot push them into the kingdom of God due to incomplete correct knowledge or complete wrong knowledge. The incomplete wrong knowledge is better than complete wrong knowledge relatively. Either you will go up to some stage in the divine path or you will go in the opposite direction. You can reach the ultimate goal in the spiritual path only by the complete correct knowledge given by human form of God directly. The knowledge given by the past human forms of God is complete and correct but the subsequent misinterpretations mask it and confuse you. The divine knowledge from the present human incarnation is complete and correct without misinterpretations since you are directly clarifying all your doubts from God.

Name: Todd • Date: 05/25/07 16:19

A: Dattaswami,

I see you follow the philosophy of our great spiritual leader P.T. Barnum “Always leave them wanting more”

So you are holding back your “knowledge” because we “can’t handle the truth”.

Will my feeble little mind explode if you lay it on me?

If I start following you, can you at least give me a “teaser” of your infinite wisdom?
I only have about 20 grand in the bank but I would willing pay for knowledge.

I leave you with another great saying from “swami P.T. Barnum” …

“There’s a sucker born every minute”

Stumbling at the bar of The Lotus Card Room,

Todd

Name: CanuckChick • Date: 05/25/07 16:42

A: Todd: I really like you.

CanuckChick
Stumbling under the Lotus after two Margaritas

Name: Todd • Date: 05/25/07 16:47

A: right back at ya CC

Name: CanuckChick • Date: 05/25/07 17:00

A: Well maybe the swami has done some good after all.

I'm feeling all warm and fuzzy.

Name: Todd • Date: 05/25/07 17:33

A: CC,

He has done all good and no good. He is everything and nothing. Blah, blah, blah…..

Talk about talking in circles.

I’ve tried to read this dudes stuff just so I could jam him with his own words but I’ve never heard someone use so many words to say nothing.

You thought I babbled on;]

Maybe that’s his true gift and I’m not smart enough to grasp his meaning.

I was never fluent in rhetoric.

“If you want to perceive and understand objectively, just don't allow yourself to be confused by people. Detach from whatever you find inside or outside yourself and only then will you attain liberation. When you are not entangled in things, you pass through freely to autonomy.”
-- Zen Master Lin-chi

in other words: "The quickest way around BS is straight through it" salamiTodd circa…… about 2 minutes ago.

“It reminds me of all the sayings about how lotus flowers only get the chance to bloom after rising above the mud.”

So if your standing at the feet of the Lotus you’re actually wallowing in the mud,

Todd

Name: CanuckChick • Date: 05/25/07 17:52

A: Check out the dude's website. Looks like he won first runner-up in the local Jesus Look-alike Contest.

Another picture clearly depicts him sporting a wound right in the middle of his forehead, doubtless from a cleaver attack.

Do you think we're going to go to hell for talking like this?

Name: Todd • Date: 05/25/07 18:37

A: I've always said if heaven is full of these people then I'd rather be in Hell with all my friends.

Name: Todd • Date: 05/25/07 19:09

A: John Lennon went to India to learn with The Mahesh Yogi, a popular Indian guru and spiritual adviser. He left more disillusioned by his fakeness and star addiction that Yogi seemed to thrive on.

I personally have a big problem with anyone saying they are better than I am. The Pope being God’s emissary on earth and all that crap.
No one is, we all just have differing points of views.

We are spiritually on a quest for a truth that hasn’t been handed down to us unfiltered.
It’s been diluted by 2000 years of agenda, preconceived notions, and prejudices that have left our “guru’s” message skewed. (Jesus. Not you dattaswami/ego boy)

I will not have my “religion” spoon fed to me by anyone. If my eternal soul is on the line then I better do the research to make sure I have an informed decision. Think for yourself!

I often wonder how people fall victim to cult leaders. Jim Jones, Heaven’s Gate, and David “Waco” boy come to mind. How do people fall for their scam? When you hear about the inner workings of their cults you realize that what they preached and how they lived were contradictory to what has been written.

Jim Jones and Waco Boy both took “many wives” with girls who were barely teenagers. Orgies were not uncommon yet they preached the word of the Lord. After awhile they actually believed they were Christ and people bought it. Literally bought it by giving their life’s savings to these bozos. There are still people who believe in these losers.

I guess when you’re disassociated with society and feel left out you are easy prey for these con men.

The lesson is listen to their message but hide your pocket book!

Todd

Name: Panluna • Date: 05/25/07 20:39

A: Todd, I agree with your previous post.We need to make up our own minds and follow what we feel is right for each of us.Spirits should be free just like butterflies.
Panluna siiting on her Lotus chair sipping a Sangrea while watching the clouds gather around Mt Baker.

Name: JMD • Date: 05/26/07 0:34

A: "Why in bible it was told that 'many will use force to enter the kingdom of God, but they cannot'?"

That's for me to know[gnosis] and for everyone else to find out on their own -by going within, to the kingdom. Just recall that it takes time, and it takes work, and dedication - i.e. can't just 'force' your way in. And I can't tell you in so many words how to do it, either, so don't ask me. Some think I'm crazy most likely, but I really don't care. I'm doing just fine -within at least. Without, not so much, though it could be worse, but eh, who cares? More reason to be a recluse.

"... All spiritual beings - whether human, animal, fairy, deceased person, or angel, - have a 'body' composed of energy and 'light matter.' This light matter has a form that gives it shape and mass. The consciousness, or thought patterns, of the being determines the density of a person's energy...[most humans] "think heavy thoughts, and our bodies reflect this consciousness."
"..The elemental kingdom.. regularly uses manifestation to attract or create their needs. This gives them lighter hearts and schedules... Nonetheless, the fairies' mind-sets are denser than angels, who are completely focused upon Spirit. ..Jesus' words, 'Seek ye first the kingdom of God [within], and all this shall be added unto you,' are the guiding words that will lift us from density, suffering, and hardship..."
"Healing with the Fairies: Messages, Manifestations, and Love from the World of the Fairies" by Doreen Virtue, Ph.D.

Seeking for Myth with Meaning?

Joseph Campbell:
"The psychological dangers through which earlier generations were guided by the symbols and spiritual exercises of their mythological and religious inheritance, we today... must face alone... This is our problem as modern, 'enlightened' individuals, for whom all gods and devils have been rationalized out of existence."

"It is possible that the failure of mythology and ritual to function effectively in our civilization may account for the high incidence among us of the malaise that has led to the characterization of our time as 'The Age of Anxiety.' "

"Mythology is a rendition of forms through which the formless Form of forms can be known."

"..and it has been the chief function of much of mythological lore... to carry the individual across the critical thresholds from... infancy to adulthood, and from old age to death."

"It has always been the prime function of mythology and rite to supply the symbols that carry the human spirit forward, in counteraction to those other constant human fantasies that tend to tie it back."

"Myth is the secret opening through which the inexhaustible energies of the cosmos pour into human cultural manifestation."

"Whenever men/women have looked for something solid on which to found their lives, they have chosen not the facts in which the [material] world abounds, but the myths of an immemorial imagination."

"We have not even to risk the adventure alone; for the heroes of all time have gone before us; the labyrinth is thoroughly known; we have only to follow the thread of the hero/ine-path. And where we had thought to find an abomination, we shall find a god; ... where we had thought to travel outward, we shall come to the center of our own existence; where we had thought to be alone, we shall be with all the world."

___

"This is what fools people: a man is always a teller of tales, he lives surrounded by his stories and the stories of others, he sees everything that happens to him through them; and he tries to live his own life as if he were telling a story."
-Jean-Paul Sartre

"The organizing myth of any culture functions in ways that may be either creative or destructive, healthful or pathological... it creates consensus, sanctifies the social order, and give the individual an authorized map of the path of life... But in the same measure that myth gives us security and identity, it also creates selective blindness, narrowness, and rigidity because it is instrinsically conservative...
As long as no radical change is necessary for survival, the status quo remains sacred, the myth and ritual are unquestioned, and the patterns of life, like the seasons of the year, repeat themselves. But when crisis comes... the mythic mind is at a loss to deal with novelty. As Marshall McLuhan said, it tries to 'walk into the future looking through a rearview mirror.' "
-Sam Keen

"No one who puts his hand to the plow and then looks back is fit for the kingdom of God [within]."
-Jesus

"Don't be satisfied with stories, how things have gone with others. Unfold your own myth."
-Rumi

"Life has confided so many stories to me, I shall have to retell them to people who cannot read the book of life itself."
-Etty Hillesum

"All sorrows can be borne if you put them into a story or tell a story about them."
-Isak Dinesen

"I asked myself 'What is the myth you are living?' and found that I did not know. So... I took it upon myself to get to know[gnosis] what unconscious or preconscious myth was forming in me."
-C.G. Jung

"Perhaps a stable order can only be established on earth if one always remains acutely conscious that his condition is that of a traveler... it is precisely the soul that is the traveler; it is of the soul and of the soul alone that we can say with supreme truth that 'being' necessarily means 'being on the way' [en route]."
-Gabriel Marcel

"One realm we have never conquered - the pure present. One great mystery of time is terra in-cognita to us - the instant, the most superb mystery we have hardly recognized - the immediate, instant self."
-D.H. Lawrence

"My miracle is that when I feel hungry, I eat, and when I feel thirsty, I drink."
-Bankei, Zen master

"A man has many skins in himself covering the depths of his heart. Man knows so many things; he does not know himself... Go into your own ground and learn to know yourself there."
-Meister Eckhart

"The mythogenetic zone today is the individual in contact with his own interior life, communicating through his art with those 'out there.' "
Joseph Campbell

"All that psychology has accomplished is to make the inner life the subject matter of science, and in doing this it dissipated the idea of the soul. But it was the soul which once linked one's inner life to a transcendent scheme of cosmic heroism."
-Ernest Becker

"It is easier to sail many thousands of miles through cold and storm and cannibals, in a government ship, with five hundred men and boys to assist one, than it is to explore the private sea, the Atlantic and Pacific Ocean of one's being alone."
-Henry David Thoreau

"The shadow is a moral problem that challenges the whole ego-personality, for no one can become conscious of the shadow without considerable moral effort. To become conscious of it involves recognizing the dark aspects of the personality as present and real. This act is the essential condition for any kind of self-knowledge, and it therefore, as a rule, meets with considerable resistance."
-C.G. Jung

"Woman, in the picture language of mythology, represents the totality of what can be known[gnosis]. The hero is the one who comes to know[gnosis]." :D
-Joseph Campbell

"The body is the spirit incognito. The human spirit and body are belly to belly with the cosmos. Or as the old mystics said: as below, so above; deeper in is further out; the microcosm reflects the macrocosm."
-Sandor McNab

"Conscience doth make cowards of us all."
-William Shakespeare

"The moment I heard my first love story I started looking for you, not knowing how blind that was. Lovers don't finally meet somewhere. They're in each other all along."
-Rumi

"Time present and time past
Are both perhaps present in time future
And time future contained in time past."
-T.S. Eliot

"The psyche is not of today; it ancestry goes back many millions of years. Individual consciousness is only the flower and the fruit of a season."
-C.G. Jung

"Grace strikes us when we are in great pain and restlessness... It strikes us when our disgust for our own being, our weakness, our hostility, and our lack of direction and composure have become intolerable to us. It strikes when year after year, the longed-for perfection of life does not appear, when the old compulsions reign with us as they have for decades... Sometimes at that moment a wave of light breaks into our darkness, and it is as though a voice were saying: 'You are accepted.' "
-Paul Tillich

"Only the wounded healer heals."
-T.S. Eliot

"If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles."
Sun Tzu

"The future enters into us, in order to transform itself in us, long before it happens."
-Rainer Maria Rilke

"The earliest evidence of anything like mythological thinking is associated with graves... Burials always involve the idea of the continued life beyond the visible one, of a plane of being that is behind the visible plane... I would say that is the basic theme of all mythology - that there is an invisible plane supporting the visible one."
-Joseph Campbell

"Where there is no vision the people perish."
Proverb

"The dream is the small hidden door in the deepest and most intimate sanctum of the soul, which opens into that primeval cosmic night that was soul long before there was a conscious ego and will be soul far beyond what a conscious ego could ever reach."
-C.G. Jung

"You yourself are participating in the evil, or you are not alive. Whatever you do is evil for somebody. This is one of the ironies of the whole creation."
-Joseph Campbell

"Suffering is the path of consciousness, and by it living beings arrive at the possession of self-consciousness. For to possess consciousness of oneself, to possess personality, is to know oneself and to feel oneself distinct from other beings, and this feeling of distinction is only reached through an act of collision, through suffering... through the sense of one's own limits."
-Miguel De Unamuno

"The only true wisdom lives far from humankind, out in the great loneliness, and it can be reached only through suffering. Privation and suffering alone can open the mind to all that is hidden to others."
-Eskimo shaman

"Many are standing at the door, but it is the solitary who will enter the bridal chamber."
-Gospel of Thomas

"If anyone examines his thoughts, he will find them entirely taken up with the past or the future ... So we never live, but hope to live; and since we are always preparing to be happy, it is enevitable that we shall never be so."
-Rene Pascal

"The real problem is that we are used to looking at the world simply. We are accustomed to believing that something is there or it is not there... Our experience tells us that the physical world is solid, real, and independent of us. Quantum mechanics says, simply, that this is not so."
-Gary Zurav

"The true purpose of all spiritual disciplines is to clear away whatever may block our awareness of that which is God in us. The aim is to get rid of whatever may so distract the mind and encumber the life that we function without this awareness."
-Howard Thurman

"Synchronicity... The term explains nothing, it simply formulates the occurrence of meaningful coincidences which, in themselves, are chance happenings, but are so improbably that we must assume them to be based on some kind of principle... of the empirical world... From this it follows either that the psyche cannot be localized in space, or that space is relative to the psyche."
-C.G. Jung

"All things... so to speak, call on us with small or loud voices. They want us to listen, they want us to understand their intrinsic claims, their justice of being... But we can give it to them only through the love that listens."
-Paul Tillich

"Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand."
Jesus, St. Matthew

"Go to a mountain-top and cry for a vision."
"Go to a lonely place and rub a stone in a circle on a rock for hours and days on end."
-Jerome Rothenberg

"Inside me I have a garden and an underground spring."
-Rumi

"This is an absolute necessity... You must have a room, or a certain hour or so in a day, where you don't know what was in the newspapers that morning, you don't know who your friends are... This is a place where you can simply experience and bring forth what you are and what you might be. This is the place of creative incubation. At first you may find that nothing happens there. But if you have a sacred place and use it, something eventually will happen."
-Joseph Campbell

"We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time
When the last of earth left to discover
Is that which was the beginning
At the source of the longest river
The voice of the hidden waterfall."
T.S. Eliot

"The great sea
Has sent me adrift,
It moves me as the weed
in a great river,
Earth and the great
weather move me,
Have carried me away,
And move my inward
parts with joy."
-Eskimo woman shaman

Name: Ladyhawk • Date: 05/26/07 1:15

A: :D

You guys are so cool! Way to go!

Name: Todd • Date: 05/26/07 2:23

A: JMD-swami,

I never thought it was humanly possible to quote Jung, T.S. Eliot, Campbell, Rumi, and a Eskimo shaman to make a counterpoint to:

"Why in bible it was told that 'many will use force to enter the kingdom of God, but they cannot'?"

You rock!! I am truly in awe,

Todd

Name: dattaswami • Date: 05/26/07 3:27

A: Todd;

True Essence of Yoga
Yoga is the most prestigious field of spiritualism. People think about 6 wheels (Chakras) or lotus flowers present in the spinal card, which are not seen by the eyes. They are imaginary and so they carry some inner meaning. When you say a face as a moon, fools search for moon in that face. But, wise people see similarity in the face and moon. Similarly, wheels and lotus flowers should not be searched in the spinal card. Spinal card is the main nerve, representing mind, which is the base of love.

All these wheels or lotus flowers are the bonds of love in the various relatives like parents, wife or husband, children etc. They are compared to wheels or the revolving whirlpools in the ocean, which attract a swimmer and drown him. Similarly, these love wheels are compared to lotus flowers, since the lotus flowers attract the bee by sweet fragrance and bind it. Similarly, these love flowers attract any one and bind them. “Kundalini” is the mind which is the energy travelling as waves like a serpent, should cross all these love wheels connected to 7th lotus flower in the head called “Sahasrara”, which is Buddhi or intelligence that takes the decision, which is the firm love on God.

Bhagavat Gita is called as the main scripture of Yoga (Yoga-Sastra). Why there is not even single reference to these wheels or lotus flowers in anywhere in Gita or even in Upanishats? Since they are not real, they are not even mentioned. The author of the Gita was Krishna, who was called Master of Yoga (Yogeswara). Krishna also says that the real yoga was lost since long (Sa kaleneha mahata….). This means that in the beginning, Sages in India knew the real yoga and loved God only crossing all their family bonds. In due course of time only, this true yoga was lost. Why? The middle age Indians were unable to cross their family bonds and so failed to succeed in Yoga.

They wanted to cover their in ability by twisting the very concept of yoga. The family bonds were removed from the concept and only wheels or lotus flowers are left fixed. Now, they close the eyes and say that they have seen the lotus flowers or wheels, which are only imaginary. Now they cross these wheels by their imaginary “Kundalini” and say that they have succeeded in Yoga. These blind teachers are also not to be blamed, because they were trained like that by their blind teachers. This misinterpretation was done long time back and hence, even at the time of Krishna, He told that yoga was lost since a long time.

We cannot catch those original culprits, who were the top most twisting masters and so the present tradition also cannot be blamed. Only rectification is the way left over. Some say that they see light, which is only an imagination. After all, the mind is a form of energy and on its concentration imaginary light can be imagined. Instead of such a week light, you better see a strong light with your open eyes. What is the use of these imaginary lights and colours, without achieving the Lord through your love, which excels the various worldly, loves.

I pity the foreigners, who are trapped in this false imaginary line of yoga, who are wasting their precious lifetime and energy. In fact, they are the best to succeed in yoga, if the reality of the yoga is exposed. Their family bonds are very weak and their love towards God is real, which is proved by their huge sacrifice of money to God’s work. Money is the fruit of work and its sacrifice for God’s work is “Karma phala tyaga” as mentioned in Gita. Again, the middle age Indians twisted this word “Karma phala tyaga” as sacrifice of the fruit of the work like praying God instead of sacrifice of money.

The reason was that these Indians were unable to sacrifice money to God due to their strong love on their children. Foreigners ask their children to earn after certain age. Indians store money even for ten generations and still continue to store only. Since prayers, meditation and knowledge are very much diverted to God, India was blessed by God with good language, good mind and good knowledge.

Since foreigners are good in sacrifice, God blessed them with good wealth. Even Indian spiritual centres were strongly funded by foreigners only. Swami Vivekananda cried, “Why my India suffers with poverty in spite of so much spiritual knowledge?” Sacrifice of money (Karma phala tyaga) and sacrifice of work (karma Sanyasa) put together constitute the God’s service, which is the real Yoga (real proof of love) called “Karma yoga” in Gita. Foreigners are the best in this karma yoga and so they easily succeed in yoga. Throughout Gita, this karma yoga was explained as yoga and wheels or lotus flowers are not at all mentioned.

Name: JMD • Date: 05/26/07 23:35

A: "Many are called, few are chosen."

:D

Name: MAriAnna72 • Date: 05/26/07 23:50

A: dattaswami.

Hello, I am new. I wanted to ask you about a dream I had, a voice clearly said 10 percent. Not 10, but ten percent, what do you think it means?

Also, I am very poor, But I seek truth, looking forward to being here.

What do you think about Jesus being married? I think it is so special, I think that earth is the female, mother part of God. And we need the feminine side back into our lives, for it is very imbalanced.

Life is filled with violence, and pornography, and neglected children.

I believe in the shift of 2012. I believe in New Israel

Glad to meet you.

Marianne

Name: sam • Date: 05/27/07 20:48

A: Tedd, answering your post of [05-25-07 ...knowledge clearer...]

what you mentioned below is true.
A- I personally have a big problem with anyone saying they are better than I am. The Pope being God’s emissary on earth and all that crap.
No one is, we all just have differing points of views.

------For sure you read many books, and you have a great knowledge, but did ever considered a book that tell you these things:

-There shall be no compulsion in acceptance of the religion.
-Muhammad is not but a messenger. Other messengers have passed on before Him.
-WE have not sent you, [O Muhammad] , over them as a manager.
-Indeed, [O Muhammad], you do not guide whom you like, but God guides whom He will. And He is most knowing of the rightly guided.

No pressure, no Popes, everyone is free, and everyone will be judged by God fairly,
-Whoever does righteousness it is for his own soul; and whoever does evil [does si] against it. AND YOUR LORD IS NOT EVER UNJUST TO HIS PEOPLE.

Here on earth people of the churches promising their people the heaven, there is any guarantee?.
When ones soul leaves this world, it will joint billions of souls, no one can guarantee that he will be among his family or his friends, and for sure not with the popes and bishops. On earth the judgment done by the people court, and you can bring the best lawyers and false witness, but you cannot do that in front of God, there is no bribery there. All people in the sight of God are the same and equal, there is no master and slave, and there is no rich or poor. At that time everyone will be judged by his work on earth.

-And not absent from your Lord is any [part] of an atom’s weight within the earth or within the heaven or [anything] smaller than that or greater but that it is in a clear register [book].

Tedd, also you said,
“I will not have my “religion” spoon fed to me by anyone. If my eternal soul is on the line then I better do the research to make sure I have an informed decision. Think for yourself!”

--------You are right, but let me bring my own opinion about THE RESEARCH?. A well knowledgeable person when does his research, first, he should plan his search carefully, and narrow it as much as possible so he does not get lost between the tons of information out there, and make notes, Second, knows exactly what he is aiming for. Third, to be free, and not to judge because the others judged, and do not give your final judgment on something before you know all the truth about it. You go back to the notes and analyze and compare using the logic and reality as tools to separate the fact from the fiction, and the truth from the false. Only those who did not know these facts end to be fed without knowing the wrong stuff.
I noticed during the last few years while going through the forums of National Geographic and this forum, that Christians reject to accept the words of one book period, while they do not know anything about is, and even when they start doubting their own books, and they go to accept books of philosophies!, it is beyond any logic or belief to see the power and the force of the churches and their teachings went so deep in their followers brain that keep people hostage to them even after leaving the church. (Engineers, lawyers, marine biologist, teachers, all they make their opinion about that book even before they know what is in it, and even some became Buddhists and they still have the same opinions, and all of them they call themselves scientists!!)
Is it not that the scientific research should be neutral in the first place, and do not take sides?.

My question to you Todd, and it is just from the curiosity point only, did you look at the Quran as a book and it might be a source of some good information? Since you mentioned this,
”If my eternal soul is on the line then I better do the research to make sure I have an informed decision”.
And if not Why not, no one will lose by reading a book that been accepted by billion people.

If you read my other posts you will find that I did use the words of Jesus most of the times, because I believe that they represents the truth, and it all came in line with the commandments (with few additions, to fulfil and not to abolish), that God gave to Moses, and I did notice that the Quran words are also giving similar teaching, (with few new laws, which seems to be necessary for the future), and the Quran bought some facts before 1400 years ago, which wasn’t known to people as that time . Here some, and I would like to hear you opinion.

- Read, and your LORD is most bountiful, -HE who taught (the use) by pen,- taught man that which he knew not.
- And if whatever trees upon the earth were pen and the sea was ink, replenished thereafter by seven more seas, the words of GOD would not be exhausted.
- O people, an example is presented so listen to it. Indeed, those you invoke beside GOD will never create (as much as) a fly, even if they gathered together for it (i.e., that purpose). And if the fly should steal from them a tiny things, they could not recover it from him. WEAK ARE THE PURSUER AND PURSUED.
- It is GOD who has created seven heavens and the earth, THE LIKE OF THEM. (Scientist start discovering some now)
-(O MUHAMMAD), say to them“go travel through the earth and observe HOW THE CREATION BEGAN. (God asked us to search without any limitation, even to search how He created things from the beginnings, the churches burn alive who dare to do that)
-Have those who disbelieved not considered that THE HEAVEN AND EARTH WERE A JOINED ENTITY, AND WE SEPARATED THEM. (That is the theory of the big bang today)
-And THE HEAVEN we constructed with strength, and indeed, WE ARE (ITS) EXPANDER. (Mr. Hubble found out that our universe is expanding only few decades ago!)
-And it is HE who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all heavenly bodies, in an orbit are swimming. ( Galileo discovered this, and jailed for it!)

There are much more, and all came by reading the book and making notes.

I am sorry if this post is too long, but the reason is, because I had similar question about my eternal soul, since in all my life only I believed in the creator and that was enough for me, but when I thought I might end somewhere else (?), and I thought it is better to do the research to find the truth and make sure I am well informed before I make any decision. Better be safe than sorry.
Always I kept in my mind to separate the message and what it teaches , away from it is followers, because if the Muslims and the Christians doing wrong or teaching wrong, that doesn’t means that the message is wrong.

God bless you.

Name: Panluna • Date: 05/27/07 21:35

A: When they count my sins in Heaven
Then I'll get to know my luck
Is it furnace number 7
Or a harp for me to pluck?

Bertolt Brecht, HAPPY END

There is no judgement from the spirit,it is only ourselves who are judge and jury.
from AN ANGEL A DAY by Margaret Neylon.

Name: sam • Date: 05/30/07 0:37

A: Panluna ,

A: When they COUNT MY SINS IN HEAVEN Then I'll get to know my luck
Is it furnace number 7 Or a harp for me to pluck? Bertolt Brecht, HAPPY END.
------------THE COUNT start here on earth and end on earth, and everything is recorded before your soul leave your body, and the judgment then is prompt and swift but fair by THE LORD (remember that you are not anymore on earth, and THE LUCK won't work up there).

Here on earth you can put a lot of information and numbers on your computer which is made by man, and when the time comes and you need the results, all what you have to do is press a button, and in the speed of light the results will come in front of your eyes. So if a man who can create such a thing from a peace of metal and plastic, do you think that the one who created man and all the livings and created the universe not able to bring you back and your soul after death, and judge you faster than the speed of light?.

Q-75:3 DOES MAN THINK THAT WE WILL NOT ASSEMBLE HIS BONE, YES WE ARE ABLE TO PUT BACK TOGETHER HIS FINGERTIPS".
-We know and only recently that everyone has a different figertips, so God will bring everyone with his fingertips as a witness. Police use this method on earth.
Q-40:57 The creation of the heavens and earth is greater than the creation of MANKIND, but most of the peoples do not know,
That is the truth, because people are taken by few small miracles done on earth and forgets the big miracle of the creation af all. Bringing man to life after death is a less miracle than creating man from dust and water (Adam& Eve), and we should not forget the creation of the billions of living things in our world, which is around us.

You throw few words, that you read for someone that you trust that he is a knowgable person about sins and heavens !, to support you, in giving an answer against the word of God which I brought in my post !.
My questions,
1-Beside THE HAPPY END, what other knowledge THE Bertolt Brecht possess and what othes things created on this earth?
2-You think that fellow knows anything about the creation, beside the sperm and egg?
3-Can this fellow create a FLY?

In my post to Todd, I brought few verses from the Quran, the words of God which were written 1400 years ago, and those mentioning scientific knowledge that came to be known only recently, and were proved to be right . The Quran said:
38:88 AND YOU WILL SURELY KNOW THE TRUTH OF ITS INFORMATION AFTER TIME.

So when i mentioned what came in the Quran:
HOW THE CREATION BEGAN....
-THE HEAVEN AND EARTH WERE A JOINED ENTITY, AND WE SEPARATED THEM. (That is the theory of the big bang today)

-And THE HEAVEN we constructed with strength, and indeed, WE ARE (ITS) EXPANDER. (Mr. Hubble found out that our universe is expanding only few decades ago!)
you did not talk about them, but you move away to change the subject?. I think you or the others make up your mind no to believe in them even before looking at them!.

4-I wonder if THE Bertolt Brecht knows such knowledge,( which is today a common knowledge), before going to those scientists who find those things by using the most advanced tools?

In my post to Todd, I mentioned this verse:
65:12 - It is GOD who has created seven heavens and the earth, THE LIKE OF THEM. (Scientist start discovering some now)

Muhammad was not a scientist, Muhammad could not read or write, and He did not come with such knowledge 1400 years ago by His own, and His knowledge are the same as the knowledge of Jesus, Moses, Abraham, Buddha and Krishna, the same as for the billions of people who lived on this earth until the coming of Galileo:

"Galileo was required to teach the accepted theory of his time that the sun and all the planets revolved around the Earth (that was the teaching of the churches, that is a fact). Later at University of Padua he was exposed to a new theory, proposed by Nicolaus Copernicus (he was burned alive, and Galileo was imprisoned), that THE EARTH AND ALL THE OTHER PLANETS REVOLVED AROUND THE SUN. "
Galileo only knows the facts about the sun and its planets, but the Quran brought the facts that "ALL HEAVENLY BODIES, IN AN ORBIT ARE SWIMMING" Q-21:33
People belive in what came from Galileo while it is a partial fact, but they do not believe the total facts when it came by the Quran !!!. that is the unlogical aproach from most people.

then came Mr. Hubble:

1889 - 1953 -Edwin Powell Hubble is renowned for determining that there are other galaxies in the Universe beyond the Milky Way, and for observing that THE UNIVERSE IS EXPANDING at a constant rate.

AND HERE ARE TODAY NEWS to prove again what came in the Quran from facts: "created seven heavens and the earth, THE LIKE OF THEM"

SCIENCE & TECHNOLOGY. (MSN, NEWS)
28 new planets discovered in past year, astronomers say
29/05/2007 11:29:36 AM
"Astronomers have discovered 28 new planets outside our solar system in the past year and say the results are just the tip of the iceberg as planet-hunting technology becomes more advanced.
The new discoveries bring the total number of known exoplanets to 236, according to two research teams who presented the latest update at a meeting of the American Astronomical Society in Honolulu on Monday.

So far, the technique has had its greatest success in detecting large, massive planets. "We're just now getting to the point where, if we were observing our own solar system from afar, we would be seeing Jupiter," said Wright.

But as the technique improves, smaller, more EARTH-LIKE PLANETS (LIKE OF THEM-Q- 65:12) will be within reach, said Wright.

Scientists have uncovered evidence of two planets (and possibly a third) around the star, including one with a radius only 50 per cent larger than the Earth's, making it the most Earth-like planet found to date."

The Quran informations were supported by real scientific discoveries, Panluna, Can you tell what was the support for the philosophies of Bertolt Brecht & dattaswami ?.

5- Are you gumbling?. are you sure about the number 7, and if it is a good or bad luck?. Do you know that GAMBLER ARE ALWAYS LOOSER?, and their NUMBER OF LUCK is "0".

Panluna, when you answer, try to give an answer to the subject, and try to use logic and fact otherwise it look like you are running away from the truth, or traying to hide the truth.
Mat-15:18 "But the things that proceed out of the mouth ......defile the man".

B:There is no judgement from the spirit,it is only ourselves who are judge and jury. from AN ANGEL A DAY by Margaret Neylon.

-----------Panluna, you are taking many gambles !. First whith "Bertolt Brecht " and now with " Margaret Neylon", and I think you will be bringing many others to your table, but can you trust them ? and trust their philosophies, so you can accept their works without any questions?, YOU THINK THIS A GAMBLE TOO?. while you deny what came from God and proven to be true !.
There are many opportunists all around the world. for ex; Paul, Constantene the Emperor, and many popes and bishops, and those philosophers who created beatiful and fancy words to be noticable among the people, take dattaswami as an example, he brings Jesus and Muhammad teaching to support his pholosophy but in facts he does not believe in them or their teachings, otherwise he will follow them, and became one of their followres. That is a fact.

My next post to you, will be about knowlrdge. ours and God knowledge.

God bless you.

Name: JMD • Date: 05/30/07 8:47

A: "Learn from within thyself to know all that is in heaven and on earth, that thou mayest be wise in all things. Knowest thou not that heaven [spirit] and the elements [matter] were formerly one, and were separated by a divine act of creation from one another, that they might bring forth thee and all things?... Know that man's greatest treasure is to be found within man, and not outside him... From the alchemist text "Theatrum Chemicum" Volume One (1602 AD) Gerhard Dorn's "Speculativae philosophiae..."

Name: Panluna • Date: 05/30/07 15:17

A: Sam,
God speaks to us in many ways.It's how we choose to listen inside-outside or both is up to the believer.I thought Bartolt Brechts poem was funny.And I follow my Angel's guidance every day whether the inspiration is from a book authored by someone else or my own ideas.It's a sacred connection and my most cherished spiritual fruit.

Name: sam • Date: 05/30/07 23:23

A: JMD,

Thank you for bringing those imformation.
I agree with a PART of What you quoted from "Gerhard Dorn -1602AD" , it is just another proof to what come in the Quran, and to prove that the Quran is right when brought the same information in 622AD, even if you did not bring this quotation for the same purpose.

A- "Learn from within thyself to know all that is in heaven and on earth, that thou mayest be wise in all things. Knowest thou not that heaven [spirit] and the elements [matter] were formerly one,"

--------- "THE HEAVEN AND EARTH WERE A JOINED ENTITY, AND WE SEPARATED THEM".... "GOD HAS CREATED EVERY LIVING CREATURE FROM WATER".... "And of His signs is that HE CREATED YOU FROM DUST; then, suddenly you were human beings dispersing throughout the earth."
- Everything came from one INTITY .and the earth is just a small part of it.
- Everything on earth came from the earth, and we are just a small part of it.
- Everything in heaven and on earth are "MATTER", a material "elements" without life.
- We are, and all living things made of the same elements of the earth and the universe, but we all had a special and unseen element that came not from the earth but from the source that created all the elements , seen or unseen.
- The Unseen elements, the mixture of hydrogen and oxygen will create water but the water will not create life (GOD CREATED LIFE FROM WATER AND DUST). We should have the seed first, (Does anyone believe that if we pour water on earth we can get a garden, and without using the seed?)
- The seeds are not created by the earth, and the unseen element that gives us life (THE SOUL) is not the creation by the earth.
- THE SOUL is a live element added to the other seen or unseen elements to create life. when the SOUL element departs, the others will brake down and go back to what they were before, and go back to earth.
- The soul never die or lost, and the other elements on earth never lost or disappear.
-Heaven is not the spirit, The Holy Spirit is who created the heaven and everything in it including the tiny earth and what is on it. (So the theory of " heaven [spirit] and the elements [matter] were formerly one" is wrong. the spirit is not a matter and the matter is not a spirit)

Some will ask this question, "how can you prove that there is a soul, which is an unseen element?"
the answer to that is as follow:
-Historically, many unseen elements in our world were not known to people while they are around us all the time, but now are proven beyound any doubt, thanks to the scientists and their scientific works, for example, Hydrogen, Helium, Argon etc. .
- The science alse brought many facts for us to see and to understand the real and the reality of many things, for example: the stars were known different in the past, no one then knows that the stars are as big as our sun, and no one knows about the billions of galaxies, and no one knows about the BLACK HOLE, even in the twenty centuris it took the scientist years to find the truth and understand what that black hole means.

They call it black hole in the space (while in logic, you cannot pierce a hole in an empty space, and the space is dark and black, so how can it be a black hole in that black space?, but that object is real and has more light than millions of stars, but it is so powerful that not even the light can escape from it.).
Later on they found the truth.
"A BLACK HOLE is a massive astrophysical OBJECT with infinite density that exerts such a strong gravitational force that NOTHING FROM ITS RADIUS CAN ESCAPE, NOT EVEN LIGHT (Weisstein 2004). "

Now, I can bring the truth and the reality about the SOUL.
The words of God came in the Quran before 1400 years ago (knowing that Muhammd has no scientific knowledge, and He could not read or write) so the information which came suppose to have a support.
Q- 86:
1- By the sky and the night comer
2- And what can make you know what is the night comer?
3- IT IS THE PIERCING STAR
(God swear by the sky and the piercing star)
4- THERE IS NO SOUL BUT THAT IT HAS OVER IT A PROTECTOR
(No one sole can escape, they are protected by a great power, and HE gave us as an example the piercing star, that we know now , that not even light can escape from it.)
5- So let man observe from what he was created
6- He was created from a fluid, ejected,
7- Emerging from between the back- bone and the ribs
9- INDEED, HE(GOD), TO RETURN HIM, IS ABLE.
(God show us how little we are and reminded us how we are created, and He swear that HE is able to retern us (BODY or SOUL) to HIM, and we have no way to escape.)

How can we believe that those words are God's words.
If we know that the stars were just stars and all the same for many thousand years, and nothing else mentioned differently in any holy book and not by any prophet. But in the Quran it was mentioned for the first time, as a different and powerful star , then it came after to be true by the scientists of the 20th century. that makes those knowledge are not the knowledge of man, but of the one who knows His stars.

Q-38:88 AND YOU WILL SURELY KNOW THE TRUTH OF ITS INFORMATION AFTER TIME.

Knowing the star that we call BLACK HOLE and its power came AFTER TIME, but IN TIME for people to understand the meaning of the piercing star (what we call wrong black hole), and it is power. it took man long time to know how to ride a plane and travel in space, after he was riding a donkey on earth for thousands of years.

B-and were separated by a divine act of creation from one another,

-------------- What we observe in the creation is only from the elements that we can see, we see today the development of the baby from the early stage until it is separated, and the seperation here is only between the mother and the child, but nothing is separated from the father, that make the chain of the separation single sided as in the "creation from one another", and that makes this theory wrong.
When the heart start ticking in the Embryo, that is the sign of life, and at this moment the soul is given to the child "and that is the "DIVINE ACT OF CREATION" ,and he is different from the mother that she carry him, even he is inside her and feeding from her (the father has no part in all the work that goes inside the womb), and from that moment until the death of the body the child, male/female has his/her own soul and not the soul of his/her mother, and of not the father.

God bless you.

Name: CanuckChick • Date: 05/31/07 14:05

A: From "Reasoning from the Scriptures" -

"In the bible, "soul" is translated from the Hebrew "ne'phesh" and the Greek "psy khe". Bible usage shows the soul to be a person or an animal or the life that a person or an animal enjoys.

To many persons, however, "soul" means the immaterial or spirit part of a human being that survives the death of the physical body. Others understand it to be the principle of life.

But these latter views are not bible teachings."

Genesis 2:7 (KJ) - "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

Notice that this does not say that man was given a soul but that he BECAME a soul, a living person.

Name: Panluna • Date: 05/31/07 15:10

A: Are you familiar with the expression "Once in a Blue Moon"?The second full moon in a month is called the Blue Moon and we have one today.It's in Sagittarius.Since it's magikal make a wish for your heart's desire.And see if your dreams come true.The Blue Moon is a very rare occurance.Enjoy!!!

Name: dattaswami • Date: 05/31/07 16:43

A: MAriAnna72;

The creation is compared to female and the creator is compared to male. The creation is controlled by the creator. Generally the female is controlled by the male. Following this convention, the concept is represented accordingly. Goddess Lakshmi is pressing the feet of the Lord Narayana as a servant. Here some misunderstand this as the male domination. Since the male domination existed in nature, the concept is represented like that. This does not mean that the concept supports the male domination. Even in the ancient tradition, there used to be some cases of female domination over the males. According to that tradition God is represented by the female or Parashakti whose throne is carried by Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva on their shoulders.

Sankara praises God in female form in Soundaryalahari in which it is stated that Brahma creates the universe from the dust of Her lotus feet, Vishnu carries it on His head and Shiva powders it and applies on His body as ash. (Taniyamsam Pamsum….). Here God is in the female-medium and the souls are in the mediums of males. Here Vishnu represents the soul and Adiparashakti represents God. Therefore the domination of male or female is not the point here, which may vary from case to case. But the domination of God over souls is the reality that is to be represented.

Rama is God and Sita is the soul. Suppose two females or two males act as Rama and Sita on the stage, the domination of Rama over Sita on the stage should not be disturbed. The domination of anyone over the other behind the screen is not at all considered on the stage. Even if the dominating male acts as Sita and the submissive female acts as Rama, the domination of Rama over Sita on the stage is inevitable. Therefore the human incarnation whether male or female is the master and the human beings whether males or females are the servants.

When the human incarnation of Durga appeared to kill Mahishasura, Durga is female and Mahishasura is male. You cannot give victory to Mahishasura since he is male and defeat to Durga since She is female. Let the dominations and suppressions of males and females be restricted to the human beings only as social problems and let them not enter and pollute the spiritual concepts.

Similarly, the caste system. Krishna, the human incarnation is a non-brahmin. The sages who were Brahmins prostrated to Krishna. Even today, the Brahmin priests are washing the feet of the statue of Krishna and drinking the washings as pious water (Teertham). Rama was non-brahmin but Ravana was a brahmin. Rama is the hero who is the God. Ravana is the villain who is a demon. Because of their caste, the hero and villain cannot be interchanged. Datta, Vamana, Parasurama and Kalki are brahmins. Rama, Krishna and Buddha are non-brahmins. Therefore the human incarnation is the master, the other human beings are servants, and the caste system has no relevance in the spiritual field.

Ravana was a male and a Brahmin. Gopikas were women and belonged to the backward caste. Gopikas were given Goloka which is the top most place. Ravana was thrown into hell. Even if you consider Jaya as the real actor in the role of Ravana, he became only the gatekeeper of the Lord. Therefore in the devotees also, the concept of male or female and the concept of caste system does not exist except the devotion proved by sacrifice. Gopikas proved their devotion by sacrificing butter (wealth), Dharma, children and finally they sacrificed even their lives by jumping into fire when Krishna left the human body, even though their husbands were alive! See the quality of devotion of Gopikas who were women of backward caste.

See the state of Ravana who is male and brahmin. He desired for the wife of the Lord! He could not recognize Rama who was the human incarnation at that time and neglected Him as an ordinary human being. Ravana was a great scholar of Vedas and Shastras. The four vedas and the six shastras represent the ten heads of Ravana. He did unimaginable penance. He believed only in the energetic forms of the upper worlds. He never considered the human race. He thought himself as God due to the super powers attained by Him. Sudama was a male and a brahmin but stole the part of parched rice to be given to the Lord while both were students. Sudama was punished with severe poverty for that sin. Therefore the Lord Krishna proved that there is no caste or gender for Him except the proved devotion which is the sacrifice.

Veda says that all the souls are females (daughters) only and the God is the only male or Purusha (Atha Purusho ha vai Narayanah, Striyah Satih Taume Pumsa ahuh –Veda). However if you call the soul as Purusha based on the root meaning that the soul or awareness is lying in the body (Puri sete iti), then God is called as Purushottama meaning that He is the best soul due to the extra presence of God. In fact the word Purushottama means the human incarnation. The best soul is also a soul. The human incarnation is also a human being. The best soul is also different from all the souls by some extraordinary point i.e. the extra existence of God. In the human incarnation, God exists beyond perishable external gross body and also beyond the internal permanent Jeevatma (Causal body with the subtle body which means the awareness with its waves). This is clearly stated in Gita while explaining the word Purushottama (Prathitah Purushottamah).

Name: sam • Date: 06/01/07 0:55

A: CanuckChick ,

Before giving my answer, I want you to know that I believe in God and in His power, and I believe in His prophets, and i believe in their miracles and their words, and I accept everything came from them without any question.
I do not believe that we have the right, to put man or prophet in the same level of God, because that is the biggest sin. Or to put any man in the level of the prophets, because we will be judged for that. Man is man, and God is God .
The Bible is written by men not by the Prophets.
The laws are from God, no doubt about that, and the stories about the prophets life and their miracle are true, but the stories about the quarrel between Sarah and Hagar and other families stories did not come from God.
In Genesis the story of creation is totally wrong, when it mention that the earth and the grass created before the sun and the stars, people should know the logic and today's facts.
When the Bible give some wrong information, then others can be questioned. reading the following:
Genesis 2:7 (KJ) - "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

---- It is true that every living things came from dust and not only man, but Here we find another missing element in this story of creation of man and other living things, and it is very important one , and that is the "WATER". NO LIFE WITHOUT WATER.
While the Bible bring the creation of Adam, the Quran brought the full story of the creation of man. Let us read what a scientist say:
Dr. E. Marshall Johnson is Professor Emeritus of Anatomy and Developmental Biology at Thomas Jefferson University, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA. There, for 22 years he was Professor of Anatomy, the Chairman of the Department of Anatomy, and the Director of the Daniel Baugh Institute. He was also the President of the Teratology Society. He has authored more than 200 publications. In 1981, during a Medical Conference, Professor Johnson said in the presentation of his research paper:

[summary] "The Quran describes not only the development of external form, but emphasizes also the internal stages, the stages inside the embryo, of its creation and development, emphasizing major events recognized by contemporary science."
Also he said: “As a scientist, I can only deal with things which I can specifically see. I can understand embryology and developmental biology. I can understand the words that are translated to me from the Quran. As I gave the example before, if I were to transpose myself into that era, knowing what I knew today and describing things, I could not describe the things which were described. I see no evidence for the fact to refute the concept that this individual, Muhammad, had to be developing this information from some place. So I see nothing here in conflict with the concept that divine intervention was involved in."

I hope that at least some of what I brought have some interest to you, we might differ in our opinion or in looking at things, so please be free to give me your thoughts about it.
......................-.............
----Breathed- in his nostril*. That is the writer imagination, and so the story of "God created man in his own image" G-1:27. how can we accept that when no one knows the image of God the "HOLY SPIRIT"?. and "And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years". G-9:3, That can be true if Adam was created 6-7 thousands years ago, but the human kind which Adam and Eve were their father and mother came much further in time (?) tens of thousands, and even hundred thousand+ years ago and at their time there were no written languge and no numbers to record with, and no records at all. the only record left from the early people found on the wall of caves, in Africa, Europe or Australia , some stumps of hands and drawing for some animals. the discovery of 5 thousands years old body in the Alps give us a real picture of the history of man, and how man use to live.

---The people who wrote such stories, they believe in God, but also they believe, that the earth is the center of the world, and nothing created beyond that. All that is wrong as we know better today.
The Quran mention that:
"It is GOD who created seven heavens AND OF THE EARTH, LIKE OF THEM." Q-65:12 ( and I did mention before the discoveries of many planets, and they are there but they are beyound our reach, at list for now, we are not alone and not the only creation in the universe.)

*If people realy understand our world today and see the universe that God created (that for those who belive in God and His creation), then we will understand the power of God. The power beyond any imagination.. God does not need to make a piece of clay then breath in it to give life (Jesus did that, and it is a miracle, and Jesus is not God, He was sent by Him, and given some power). because in that case God Had to do the same to create the other living things, animals insects, then what about the grass and trees?. In the Quran it says:
Q-3:59 Indeed, the example of Jesus to God is like that of ADAM. He created Him from dust; then HE SAID TO HIM, "BE" AND HE WAS. (That is the power of God the creator, God is able to create thing from nothing)

---- We all created the same way, God gave us the life (the soul), and He did not breath into our nostrils, THAT IS THE POWER OF GOD.
........................................

"Notice that this does not say that man was given a soul but that he BECAME a soul, a living person."
-----Man became a soul?. It is another story. If man became a soul then when the man die, the soul will die too. everything gone "dust to dust", and if you believe in what you mentioned that makes the words of Jesus not true, because here what Jesus said:
" Do not fear those who KILL THE BODY BUT ARE UNABLE TO KILL THE SOUL; (here we been told that the soul and the body are two different things) , but rather FEAR HIM (GOD) who is able to destroy BOTH (2 things) SOUL AND BODY in hell." Mat- 10:28

Those are the world of Jesus, and God gave Him the knowledge, and I do believe in His words more than I believe in those who wrote the story in Genesis.

God bless you.

Name: CanuckChick • Date: 06/01/07 15:14

A: Good morning, Sam!

I agree with your statement: "I do not believe that we have the right, to put man or prophet in the same level of God, because that is the biggest sin."

Philippians 2:5,6: "Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God's form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. No, but he emptied himself and took a slave's form and came to be in the likeness of men. More than that, when he found himself in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient as far a death, yes, death on a torture stake."

Sam, the bible does not say that the earth and grasses (vegetation) were created before the sun and stars. On the first "day", the expression "Let light come to be" was used. The Hebrew word there used for "light" is " 'ohr ", meaning light in a general sense. But on the fourth "day, the Hebrew word changes to ma'ohr, which means the source of the light. On the first "day" diffused light evidently penetrated the swaddling bands over the earth, but the sources of that light could not have been seen by an earthly observer because of the cloud layers still enveloping the earth. On this fourth "day," things apparently changed.

Now, had there been an earthly observer, he would be able to discern the sun, moon and stars, which would "serve as signs and for seasons and for days and years." (Gen 1:14)

Re: God's image - Colossians 3:10 says "...and clothe yourselves with the new personality, which through accurate knowledge is being made new according to the image of the One who created it."

Man is "in God's image" in that he was created with moral qualities like those of God, namely, love and justice.

Re: the soul - From The Jewish Encyclopedia: "The belief that the soul continues its existence after the dissolution of the body is a matter of philosophical or theological speculation rather than of simple faith, and is accordingly nowhere expressly taught in Holy Scripture."

From the New Catholic Encyclopedia: "The term nepes (ne'phesh) though translated by our word soul, never means soul as distinct from the body or the individual person...The term psy'khe is the New Testament word corresponding with nepes. It can mean the principle of life, life itself, or the living being.

Jesus said in Matthew 10:28: "Do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul (or, "life"); but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna." I believe he is telling us that any further prospect of a resurrection to life (soul = life) may be extinguished.

Can the human soul die?

Ezek 18:4: "Look! All the souls - to me they belong. As the soul of the father so likewise the soul of the son - to me they belong. The soul that is sinning - it itself will die."

Gen 9:5: "Besides that, your blood of your souls shall I ask back." Here the soul is said to have blood.

Gen 1:20,21,2,25: "God went on to say: ""Let the waters swarm forth a swarm of living souls...And God proceeded to create the great sea monsters and every living soul that moves about, which the waters swarmed forth according to their kinds, and every winged flying creature according to its kind...And God went on to say: ""Let the earth put forth living souls according to their kinds...And God proceeed to make the wild beast of the earth according to its kind and the domestic animal according to its kind and every moving animal of the ground according to its kind."

God warned the first humans: "But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die." (Gen 2:17) If man was indeed imbued with an immortal soul, would this not make God's statement a lie?

"The concept of immortality is a product of Greek thinking (Plato), whereas the hope of a resurrection belongs to Jewish thought." (Dictionnaire Encyclopedique de la Bible)

It was, in fact, Satan who told Eve "At this the serpent said to the woman: ""You positively will not die.""

If we did in fact have immortal souls, why would there be a need for a resurrection?

(Again, I have "borrowed" heavily from "Insight on the Scriptures".)

I very much appreciate your viewpoint and your sincerity, Sam.

CC

Name: Panluna • Date: 06/02/07 14:21

A: Prophets are messengers.God in any name is a pure ,neutral ,universal energy force that lives as Spirit.

Name: sam • Date: 06/02/07 21:50

A: CanuckChick,

Bishop John S. Spong, wrotes"
"The Bible FULL "FULL" of CONTRADICTIONS AND ERRORS."
"The Gospels CANNOT BE TRUSTED TO BE RELIABLE."

I did read his words (his statement) after I found by myself the many errrors while I am reading the bible and the gospel, and that prove to me that these books are not the words of God and not even came from HIM, because God knows the truth and will not give wrong informations or lie.
All the time I thought that there are few errors, but thanks to you for bringing back this post after many months which I missed before:
Different Body???
which Pat (03-11-07) brought these information, that I did not know before.
"Scholars have estimated that the Bible contains over two thousand explicit or implicit contradictions. Some are major, some trivial: this list is only a small selection. What do you make of them?"
220 contradictions were listed, from the bible and the Gospels, by Pat.

I would like to say that, "if there is contradiction in the same story, we can say that the story itself cannot be trusted to be true. And those who wrote it cannot be trusted too, not at all".
Can any court or judge give their decisions on any case depending on conflicting stories, or they will dismiss the case? (the books).
Can we say, If there are over 2000 contradictions, and we know that a contradiction rise when there is another story that contradict it, and sometimes there could be more than one, as we see in these stories:
A- one contradiction:
a1- Matthew 28:9 The women SAW JESUS on their way back to report to the disciples.

Luke 24:9,22-23 The women apparently DID NOT SEE JESUS.

a2- Matthew 28:1,9 Mary Magdaline obviously RECOGNIZED JESUS when she first saw him after the Resurrection.

John 20:14 She DID NOT RECOGNIZE HIM.

a3- Matthew 28:16-17 After the Resurrection. Jesus FIRST APPEARED to the disciples IN GALILEE.

Luke 24:33.36 He FIRST APPEARED to them IN JERUSALEM.

B- more than one.
b1- Judges 11:30-32.34.39 God delivered Jepthah's enemies into his hands in exchange for a human sacrifice.

b2- Leviticus 27:28-29 Human beings "devoted" or made sacred to God must be put to death. (See also Exodus 22:28-29 in this context.)

b3- II Samuel 21:1,8,9,14 God accepts the sacrifice (by dismemberment) of seven innocent men, and removes a famine.

From that we arrive that the total of those parts which does not give the right statement are MUCH far more that 4000, and that make a doubt about the rest of the stories in those books.
Let us read those stories too:
20:13 And when the Lord your God has given it into your hands, let every male in it be put to death without mercy.
(anyone with a clear mind and clear conscious accept this law?, TO KILL EVERY MAN, the good and the bad!!!, and withour mercy)
20:14 But the women and the children and the cattle and everything in the town and all its wealth, you may take for yourselves: the wealth of your haters, which the Lord your God has given you, will be your food.
(Does God give the right to do all these awful acts?)
20:15 So you are to do to all the towns far away, which are not the towns of these nations.
20:16 But in the towns of these peoples whose land the Lord your God is giving you for your heritage, let no living thing be kept from death:
(It is not God' laws, God laws are love and peace, but it is the laws of the sick people, people who had nothing in their heart except hate and hate, TO KILL EVERY LIVING THING, A TOTAL DISTRUCTION OF LIFE AND LIVING !!!.)
................................
21:14 But if you have no delight in her, you are to let her go wherever she will; you may not take a price for her as if she was your property, for YOU HAVE MADE USE OF "HER" FOR YOUR PLEASURE.
(Any good man or woman will accept that law?. CAN YOU use the woman for your pleasure, then when you find another one for your pleasue, You throw the first woman !!!. But you cannot sell her as property!!! (THAT IS GREAT, SO WHY WOMAN SHOULD COMPLAIN?, that is from the point of this holy book view). I would like to know the opinion of any woman who read this sorts of mentalities)
21:15 If a man has two wives, one greatly loved and the other hated, and the two of them have had children by him; and if the first son is the child of the hated wife:
(Here we should go and read the story of Ibraham and his two wives, "SARAH & HAGAR" and his two sons, "ISSAC & ISHMAEL".
21:16 Then when he gives his property to his sons for their heritage, he is not to put the son of his loved one in the place of the first son, the son of the hated wife:
{It is clear here that the son of the HATED WOMAN (God does not hate, because that will make God unfair in His judgment, only people hate), cannot be put in the second place.}
21:17 But he is to give his first son his birthright (that is ISHMAEL), and twice as great a part of his property: for he is the first-fruits of his strength and the right of the first son is his.
(that means , Ishmael should receive twice as much as Isaac, by the law of the books. But all what Ishmael and his mother received is throwing them out of their home and they receive this: "Ge 21:14 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took BREAD, and a bottle of WATER, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in THE WILDERNESS of Beersheba." My question is , "was it right to deprive Ishmael from HIS right which is mentioned in the same book (21:17) , and to deprive his mather, Abraham's wife from been treated as human?.
....................-.......................
This- is my thoughts only:
According to the laws of your holy book , do you think that the descendents of Ishmael the first born son to Abraham has the rights to claim back the land which had been stollen from them, and they should ask to be paid for all the losses that came from that + interest?. Are the Jews asking for payment plus interest for their losses in Germany and other countries?, and claiming the land of their father Abraham, but denying the other Son of Abraham their rights. are one is OK and the other NOT?.
..................................
22:28 If a man sees a young virgin, who has not given her word to be married to anyone, and he takes her by force and has connection with her, and discovery is made of it;
(Taken a woman by force, it is by itself an act which cannot be accepte PERIOD. That act brings the man to the same level of animal, PERIOD. That is a big sin in the sight of God, PERIOD.)
22:29 Then the man will have to give the virgin's father fifty shekels of silver and make her his wife, because he has put shame on her; he may never put her away all his life.
( THE CRULETY OF SUCH AN ACT CANNOT BE CLEARED BY FIFTY SHEKELS OF SILVER (NOT EVEN IN ALL THE GOLD OR DIAMOND) GIVEN TO THE FATHER, DID THEY EVER GIVE A THOUGHTS ABOUT THE WOMAN WHO BEEN RAPED AGAINST HER WILL?.)
(THE WOMAN ARE EQUAL TO MAN, AND SHE IS BORN FREE, AND SHE IS NOT THE PROPERTY OF MAN TO BE USED, THROWN OUT OR SOLD.)

Those laws that came in the holy books cannot be accepted by any man or woman with a clear conscious. And today's laws are not much better, where the criminal can get free or pay few months/years in jail, while the woman victim has to suffer the rest of her life and so her family. No payment for the damage that happen to the poor woman. But these laws cannot be changed. THE QUESTION WHY?:
Because if they put them behind bars and they give the criminal long time in jail, that by itself will create a shortage in work, and loss in income $$$$$$, and what will happen to the lawyers and judges and the many others who live from that business???. They deffend their system by bringing their own philosophy which have a lot of faces. You ask any woman who went through this dilemma, if she was treated fairly under the laws, and listen to her answer. The criminal sometimes has more rights than the the innocent, and that is a shame.

After all what I said here, I want to cheer you up by bringing my wife judgment in the cases of raping woman or boy, which is in the news everywhere and nearly every few days. Here what she always says, and in every time she hear this kind of news, that is what she will do if she is a judge. "I WILL CUT THE CRIMINAL P---- FROM THE ROOT, and there will be no more such a crime, and people should not pay taxes to support the criminals and give them good life in jails."
For your knowlrdge, people pay 50,000$ a year to keep one criminal in jail, and that is more than the income of many families to support a family of two or more chidren, who struggle to survive, and that not talking how much it cost to catch them and bring them into the jail. What a business

Women, girls and boys, and so their families, they all live in fear today and the crimes are growing by the year, all that is the results of those old laws and the new laws. I wonder what you think about my wife law?, please give you opinion. As for me I agree with her law 100%.

CanuckChick, please read, DEUTERONOMY, 20: 13/14/15/16, &21: 14/15/16/17, & 22:28/29. A-Then tell if you accept those laws?, and, B- if you believe they are the words of God?.

Only two easy questions, and the answer should be for these questions only.
Try not to jump to another subject and not to bring another verse or what Paul said in his letters to his freinds, to avoid answering this subject.
Try not to use the sam philosophy of "dattaswami", when I ask a question he jump away from it by bringing more of his own philosophy.
because if you try that trick, then you show that you are running from admitting the truth.

God bless you.

Name: sam • Date: 06/03/07 1:55

A: CanuckChick,

Answering your post about the creation in Genesis, which you explain as this:
"On the first "day" diffused light evidently penetrated the swaddling bands over the earth, but the sources of that light could not have been seen by an earthly observer because of the cloud layers still enveloping the earth. On this fourth "day," things apparently changed.

Now, had there been an earthly observer, he would be able to discern the sun, moon and stars, which would "serve as signs and for seasons and for days and years." (Gen 1:14)

Sometimes I wonder how the people who live in the 21st century still believe in those stories, and try to justify it, by their own philosophy. Does those people read the books and watch the decomenteries or learn at school of some of today's knowledge?!.

ON that fourth "day !. that is when the cloud enveloped the earth, there was no life on earth, and that happen billion of years ago.
there were million of living species on earth and they came to earth before millions of years, and when the human came there were only two Adam & Eve, and then or now as you said: "Now, had there been an earthly observer" ( I understand the obsevation you mentioned done by man and not by the animals, is that right) but he/she could not reads or writes to record what things, and they came after billion of years from the time of creation, so how did those people who wrote the story know all these information as they been there while the creation was going on, and still the man was not created yet ?!!!!!.

Did you ever think about it from the logic point? or in your beliefs you are not aloud to use your brain and the logic, but you believe only in what you been taught.

The former Catholic Nun"Mary Ann Collins, wrote in her book, “Unmasking Catholicism”:

“Forbidden people to interpret the bible for themselves.” She was talking about the church people. and think it will be good to see her site, it is very interesting to know the truth for what been hidden for centuries.

God bless you.

Name: CanuckChick • Date: 06/05/07 19:47

A: Sam:

Re Bishop Spong - The fact that this man was a bishop does not make him an authority on the bible. I was raised Roman Catholic and do not recall one instance where we were directed or encouraged to read the bible. We were taught the doctrine of the Catholic Church, which differs with the teachings found in the bible. The fact that he does not acknowledge Jesus as the messiah tends to make his claim of being a Christian false. I have no faith in his words.

Re the "Different Body" post brought by Pat - You might notice that the first ten of the claims of contradiction have been explained. I also researched the next ten but did not post as I never received any feedback on the first ten.

You know that the four gospels were written by four different men. It follows that there would be differences in their stories as they witnessed these events from differing viewpoints. An example might be four different witnesses describing a car accident. Their descriptions would differ dependent on their point of view. I would be suspicious of the gospels if they told the story in exactly the same way, indicating collusion on the part of the writers.

Re Mary Magdalene and the tomb - From “Insight on the Scriptures”: “After Jesus’ burial, Mary Magdalene and other women went to prepare spices and perfumed oil before the Sabbath began an sundown. Then following the Sabbath, at the break of dawn, on the first day of the week, Mary and the other women brought the perfumed oil to the tomb. When Mary saw the tomb was open and apparently empty, she rushed off to tell the startling news to Peter and John, who ran to the tomb. (John 20:1-4) By the time Mary got back to the tomb, Peter and John had left, and it was now that she checked inside and was stunned at seeing two angels in white. Then she turned back and saw Jesus standing. Thinking him to be the gardener, she asked where the body was, that she might care for it. When he replied “Mary!” his identity was immediately revealed to her and she impulsively embrace him, exclaiming, “Rabboni!”. "

In short, it was not until her second trip to the tomb that she saw and recognized Jesus.

Re: Jesus’ appearance after his resurrection - Matthew’s account does not say that this was Jesus’ first appearance.

Re: Jephthah - Judges 11:37: “.....and let me weep over my virginity, I and my girl companions.” She wept, not over her death, but over her virginity.

How would the person coming out to meet Jephthah “become Jehovah’s and be offered up “as a burnt offering?
Persons could be devoted to Jehovah’s exclusive service in connection with the sanctuary. It was a right that parents could exercise.

Judges 11:39,40: “And it came about at the end of two months that she made her return to her father, after which he carried out his vow that he had made toward her. As for her, she never had relations with a man. And it came to be a regulation in Israel: From year to year the daughters of Israel would go to give commendation to the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite, four days in the year.”

So, she was still very much alive after the fulfillment of her father’s vow.

Re Leviticus 27:29 - “No devoted person who might be devoted to destruction from among mankind may be redeemed. He should be put to death without fail.”

There’s a big difference between humans devoted to God and those “devoted to destruction” for whom there was no redemption. Those who came under sacred ban were to be put to death without fail. These included the idolatrous inhabitants of
Canaan.

Re 2 Samuel 2l - Although the Gibeonites manifested faith in Jehovah God, King Saul schemed to destroy them. When questioned by David as to what would be required to make atonement, they asked for seven “sons” of Saul to be handed over to them. The fact that bloodguilt was upon both Saul and his household suggest that, although Saul probably took the lead in the murderous actions, the “sons” of Saul may directly or indirectly have shared in it. Hardly innocents.

Dismembered? I can’t find any reference to this.

Re your scriptural references after your words "Let us read those stores too:" They're not from Judges, Leviticus or Samuel. Which book are they from?

Again, not to turn this into a book, I'll do my best to answer the rest of your post later.

CC

Name: CanuckChick • Date: 06/06/07 5:01

A: Sam: Part 2 of my answer to your 06/02 l7:50 post

I found that you are referring to the book of Deuteronomy, when you said "Let us read those stories too:"

Again, much of this information I found in the book "Insight on the Scriptures".

The historical account shows that the populations of the Canaanite cities conquered by the Israelites were subject to complete destruction. This fact has been used by some critics as a means for depicting the Hebrew Scriptures as imbued with a spirit of cruelty and wanton slaughter.

The issue involved, however, is clearly that of whether God's sovereignty over the earth and its inhabitants is acknowledged or not. He had deeded over the right of tenure of the land of Canaan to the "seed of Abraham", doing so by an oath-bound covenant. But more than a mere eviction or dispossessing of the existing tenants of that land was purposed by God. His right to act as "Judge of all the earth" and to decree the sentence of capital punishment upon those found meriting it, as well as his right to implement and enforce the execution of such decree, was also involved.

Canaan had become saturated with detestable practices of idolatry, immorality, and bloodshed. Their religion was extraordinarily base and degraded, their "sacred poles" evidently being phallic symbols, and many of the rites at their high places involving gross sexual excesses and depravity. (Ex 23:24; 34:12, 13; Nu 33:52; De 7:5)

Incest, sodomy, and bestiality were part of "the way of the land of Canaan" that made the land unclean and for which error it was due to "vomit its inhabitants out." (Le 18:2-25) Magic, spellbinding, spiritism, and sacrifice of their children by fire were also among the Canaanites' detestable practices. (De 18:9-12)

Jehovah had exercised his sovereign right to execute the sentence of death upon the wicked population of the entire planet at the time of the global flood. He had executed a decree of destruction upon Pharaoh's military forces at the Red Sea; he had also exterminated the households of Korah and other rebels among the Israelites themselves.

Jehovah now assigned to the Israelites the sacred duty of serving as principal executioners of his divine decree. By using this human instrument, pitted against "seven nations more populous and mighty" than they were, Jehovah's power was magnified and his Godship proved. (De 7:1: Le 25:38)

The Canaanites were not ignorant of the powerful evidence that Israel was God's chosen people and instrument. However, with the exception of Rahab and her family and the cities of the Gibeonites, those who came in for destruction neither sought mercy nor availed themselves of the opportunity to flee, but instead they chose to harden themselves in rebellion against Jehovah.

The fact that human agents effected the putting to death of the condemned peoples, however unpleasant their tak may seem, cannot alter the rightness of the divinely ordained action. It also allowed the Israelites the opportunity to demonstrate obedience to God's commands concerning the Canaanites, putting their faith to the test to the point of endangering their lives in war in order to prove obedient.

Deut 18:9-12 says "When you are entered into the land that Jehovah your God is giving you, you must not learn to do according to the detestable things of those nations. There should not be found in you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, anyone who employs divination, a practicer of magic or anyone who looks for omens or a sorcerer, or one who binds others with a spell or anyone who consults a spirit medium or a professional foreteller of events or anyone who inquires of the dead. For everybody doing these things is something detestable to Jehovah, and on account of these detestable things Jehovah your God is driving them away from before you."

Sam, your own very human wife and I agree on some fairly gruesome punishment for rapists, although we have no right to carry it out. Does God not have the right to exact punishment on those guilty of vile acts?

Re Deut 21:14 - Deut 24:1 gives clarification. This was in the good old days, before the advent of "no fault divorce".
"In case a man takes a woman and does make her his possession as a wife, it must also occur that if she should find no favor in his eyes BECAUSE HE HAS FOUND SOMETHING INDECENT ON HER PART, he must also write out a certificate of divorce for her and put it in her hand and dismiss her from his house.

Re Isaac and Ishmael - Abraham possessed no land, except for the field with the cave used as a burial place. (Ge 23:17-20) The material inheritance that he passed on consisted of cattle and movable goods. Acts 7:5 says "Yet he did not give him any inheritable possession in it, no, not a footbreadth; but he promised to give it to him as a possession, and after him to his seed, while as yet he had no child.'

The father could transfer the birthright if he had a good reason, giving the firstborn's inheritance to a younger son. In the instances of this noted in the bible, it was not through whim or favoritism, but there was a basis on which the father determined to make the change in the birthright inheritance.

Ishmael, as Abraham's oldest son, was prospective heir for about 14 years. But at Sarah's request and with God's approval, Abraham dismissed Ishmael, then about 19 years of age. (Ge 16:16; 17:18-21; 21:5) Isaac then possessed the firstborn's right and later received everything that Abraham had (cattle etc. but no land), with the exception of gifts that Abraham gave to sons later born to him by Keturah.

Stay tuned for Part 3! I'm getting really tired and off to bed.

Peace to you, Sam

CC

Name: Shlomo • Date: 06/06/07 5:37

A: A person is born with three souls;

nefesh [ blood / flesh ] - functioning of the body
ruach [ mind ] - thought processes
neshamah [ breath of the holy spirit ] - spiritual processes

Read Bereshis 2:7 again, it is hidden and you can not see it in the English wording.

Name: CanuckChick • Date: 06/06/07 14:49

A: Sam: Part 3

Re Deut 22:28 - "In case a man finds a girl, a virgin who has not been engaged, and he actually seizes her and lies down with her, and THEY HAVE BEEN FOUND OUT, the man who lay down with her must also give the girl's father fifty silver shekels, and she will become his wife due to the fact that he humiliated her. He will not be allowed to divorce her all his days."
They key here seems to be the fact that they were both attempting to cover up their act, in that the girl did not scream or report it.
According to Exodus 22:16,17 the father had to agree to the marriage: "Now in case a man seduces a virgin who is not engaged, and he actually lies down with her, he is to obtain her without fail as his wife for the purchase price. If her father flatly refuses to give her to him, he is to pay over the money at the rate of purchase money for virgins."

Re engaged or married women - "In case there happened to be a virgin girl engaged to a man, and a man actually found her in the city and lay down with her, you must also bring them both out to the gate of that city and pelt them with stones, and they must die, the girl for the reason THAT SHE DID NOT SCREAM in the city, and the man for the reason that he humiliated the wife of his fellowman. So you must clear away what is evil from your midst. If, however, it is in the field that the man found the girl who was engaged, and the man grabbed hold of her and lay down with her, the man who lay down with her must also die by himself, and to the girl you must do nothing. The girl has no sin deserving of death, because just as when a man rises up against his fellowman and indeed murders him, even a soul, so it is with this case. For it was in the field that he found her. The girl who was engaged screamed, but there was no one to rescue her."(Deut 22:23-27)

Re today's laws - I really like your wife's idea about rapists. My own idea runs along similar lines, however impractical. Romans 13 in fact gives governments the authority to act as judge in these matters. Sadly, in many cases, they fail to use their authority properly.
In speaking about "the superior authorities", Romans 13:4 says: "for it is God's minister to you for your good. But if you are doing what is bad, be in fear; for it is not without purpose that it bears the sword; for it is God's minister, an avenger to express wrath upon the one practicing what is bad."

Sam, I'm somewhat offended by your words: "Try not to jump to another subject and not to bring another verse or what Paul said in his letters to his freinds, to avoid answering this subject.
Try not to use the sam philosophy of "dattaswami", when I ask a question he jump away from it by bringing more of his own philosophy.
because if you try that trick, then you show that you are running from admitting the truth."

Surely, you have me confused with someone else.

CC

Name: CanuckChick • Date: 06/06/07 15:41

A: Sam: Re your 6/2 - 21:55 post

Re the Genesis account of creation, I did not say that there WERE earthly observers - I said "now, had there been earthly observers". It makes sense to me that God would focus his information on the creation of the earth, since that is of the utmost interest to humans.

You say: "...so, how did those people who wrote the story know all these information as they had been there while the creation was going on, and still the man was not created yet?!!!!"

I believe the information in Genesis was passed on to humans from God.

From the book "Life - How Did it Get Here?" - "The science of mathematical probability offers striking proof that the Genesis creation account must have come from a source with knowledge of the events. The account lists 10 major stages in this order: 1) a beginning 2) a primitive earth in darkness and enshrouded in heavy gases and water 3) light 4) an expanse or atmosphere 5) large areas of dry land 6) land plants 7) sun, moon and stars DISCERNIBLE in the expanse, and seasons beginning 8) sea monsters and flying creatures 9) wild and tame beasts, mammals 10) man.
Science agrees that these stages occurred in this general order. What are the chances that the writer of Genesis just guessed this order? The same as if you picked at random the numbers 1 to 10 from a box, and drew them in consecutive order. The chances of doing this ON YOUR FIRST TRY are 1 in 3,628,800! So, to say the writer just happened to list the foregoing events in the right order without getting the facts from somewhere is not realistic."

The fact that the Genesis account is couched in simple language should not take away from its scientific accuracy. God is hardly going to get into an explanation of quantum physics with a bunch of semi-literate camel jockeys who don't even own underpants.

The account in your own book, the Quaran is similarly simply worded:
"Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood," (96:2).
"We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape, (15:26).
"The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was," (3:59).
"But does not man call to mind that We created him before out of nothing?" (19:67, Yusuf Ali). Also, 52:35).
"He has created man from a sperm-drop; and behold this same (man) becomes an open disputer! (16:4).

Re Mary Ann Collins - I have not read her book, but I have no belief in most of the doctrines of the Catholic Church.

You said: "Did you ever think about it from the logic point? or in your beliefs you are not aloud to use your logic, but you believe only in what you been taught."

I'll leave you with a scripture from 2John 5:20 - "But we know that the Son of God has come, and he has given us intellectual capacity that we may gain the knowledge of the true one..."

CC

Name: Panluna • Date: 06/07/07 1:10

A: To know,to understand and to accept are the keys to wisdom.

Name: JMD • Date: 06/10/07 2:13

A: I agree with Panluna the wise. Though just to mention, Canaan was perhaps a Pagan area?, but I personally don't see that as being 'evil' as I don't think Pagans are evil [but then I'm rather a bit of a Pagan Gnostic and a Jewish Gnostic as well; not just a Christian Gnostic, so I have a very different viewpoint/belief]. Though I'm not surprised at the hate shown towards Canaan, considering it's coming from Jehovah the jealous God. And since he's jealous, that means he isn't totally about love, for love means no envy/jealousy.

JMD

Name: Shlomo • Date: 06/10/07 5:43

A: The Torah [Bible] was written in a language for man to understand, thus the words of jealousy and love are not defined the same for G-d - [ G-d said, your thoughts are not my thoughts, nor do you know me ]...............

Humankind have re-defined the words to favor their own created beliefs which leads to erroneous conclusions.

Name: Panluna • Date: 06/10/07 13:11

A: Maybe knowing God has nothing to do with words.It could be a feeling of unconditional love and trust.

Name: Panluna • Date: 06/10/07 13:19

A: Shlomo,
Why is it that the Hebrews are God's chosen people even though He created ALL of our ancesters?(If you go along with the creation story in Genesis) Did they choose God to be their diety or was it the other way around?

Name: Panluna • Date: 06/10/07 13:21

A: Dattaswami,
How and when did the Hindu religion and culture begin?

Name: Panluna • Date: 06/10/07 13:52

A: JMD,
Anyone can be evil and do bad things.The most dangerous people to know are the ones who hide behind a mask of rightesness and throw rocks at other people while condeming behaviour similar to their own. You know what I mean--the deceitful types in sugar coating.If all good deeds were done with 100% pure intentions this world would be a better place.But there's always Karmic debt to deal with.Just because people practise different religions does not make that group bad unless they follow a bad leader that beguiles or forces them to commit evil.Religion isn't bad.It offers cultural guidance for various passages in life like birth,coming of age, weddings and attempts to explain and offer comfort in regards to tthe afterlife.Everyone alive wonders about death.And religion keeps people of alike minds organised.There is safety in numbers--just like a flock of sheep.

Name: Shlomo • Date: 06/11/07 1:45

A: Panluna,

The idea of the Hebrews being the "chosen people" is one of the most misunderstood words or titles. The Hebrews were chosen to set an "example" to the world of G-d's requirements for man, not as a "favorable people" over or against other people in the world as is commonly understood by the majority. It is tough and hard to set an example, in comparison, it takes no real effort to be a favorite.

Without sounding a little bit crude, like a basic animal, Adam was first created with a nefesh [ blood / flesh ] and a ruach [ breath ] a third was then given, the soul of the neshamah [ higher or holy spirit ] for him to be completed in the image and he became aware of his creator.

Even though the words given in Torah are at a human level of understanding does not diminish their importance. G-d gives a certain amount of knowledge and words on a human level so as not to violate free will. G-d told Moshe you may see my back only, but my face you may not see and live. G-d's words are vast and immense without limitation in their definition. Man defines and limits his own words.

Name: CanuckChick • Date: 06/11/07 19:41

A: Schlomo: "The idea of the Hebrews being the "chosen people" is one of the most misunderstood words or titles. The Hebrews were chosen to set an "example" to the world of G-d's requirements for man, not as a "favorable people" over or against other people in the world as is commonly understood by the majority. It is tough and hard to set an example, in comparison, it takes no real effort to be a favorite."

Now that is absolutely brilliant! Never heard it explained that way before.

Name: JMD • Date: 06/11/07 22:58

A: "Many religions advocate that humans are to be blamed for the imperfections of the world. Supporting this view, they interpret the Genesis myth as declaring that transgressions committed by the first human pair brought about a 'fall' of Creation resulting in the present corrupt state of the world. Gnostics respond that this interpretation of the myth is false. The blame for the world's failings lies not with humans, but with the Creator..."

"Ways of evading the recognition of the flawed Creation and its flawed Creator have been devised over and over, but none of these arguments have impressed Gnostics...
Nor is the Eastern idea oif Karma regarded by Gnostics as an adequate explanation of Creation's imperfection and suffering. Karma at best can only explain how the chain of suffering and imperfection works. It does not inform us in the first place why such a sorrowful and malign system should exist.

Once the initial shock of the 'unusual' or 'blasphemous' nature of the Gnostic explanation for suffering and imperfection of the world wears off, one may begin to recognize that it is in fact the most sensible of all explanations..."

"The Gnostic God concept is subtler than that of most religions. In its way, it unites and reconciles the perspectives of montheism and plytheism, as well as of theism, deism, and pantheism.

In the Gnostic view, there is a true, ultimate, and transcendent God, who is beyond all created universes and who never created anything in the sense in which the word 'create' is ordinarily understood..."
[more to do with 'emanation'].

"The basic Gnostic myth has many variations, but all of these refer to Aeons, intermediate deific beings who exist between the ultimate True God and ourselves. They, together with the True God, comprise the realm of Fullness (Pleroma) wherein the potency of divinity operates fully. The Fullness stands in contrast to our existential state, which in comparison may be called emptiness."

"Human nature mirrors the duality found in the world: in part it was made by the false creator God and in part it consists of the light of the True God. Humankind contains a perishable physical and psychic component, as well as a spiritual component that is a fragment of the divine essence. This latter part is often symbolically referred to as the 'divine spark.' The recognition of this dual nature of the world and of the human being has earned the Gnostic tradition the epithet of 'dualist.'

Humans are generally ignorant of the divine spark resident within them. This ignorance is fostered in human nature by the influence of the false creator and his Archons, who together are intent upon keeping men and women ignorant of their true nature and destiny. Anything that causes us to remain attached to earthly things serves to keep us in enslavement to these lower cosmic rulers. Death released the divine spark from the lowly prison, but if there has not been a substantial work of Gnosis undertaken by the soul prior to death, it becomes likely that the divine spark will be hurled back into the pangs and slavery of the physical
world."

"...As the scholar Gilles Quspel wrote: 'The world-spirit in exile must go through the Inferno of matter and the Purgatory of morals to arrive at the spiritual Paradise."

This kind of evolution of consciousness was envisioned by the Gnostics, long before the concept of evolution was known."

"... Gnostics do not look to salvation from sin (original or other), but rather from the ignorance of which sin is a consequence. Ignorance - whereby is meant ignorance of spiritual realities - is dispelled only by Gnosis, and the decisive revelation of Gnosis is brought by the Messengers of Light, especially by Christ, the Logos of the True God. It is not by His suffering and death but by His life of teaching and His establishing of mysteries that Christ performed His work of salvation."
From "The Quest For Spiritual Freedom: The Gnostic Worldview" by Stephan A. Hoeller
____

Q Source:
"A good tree does not bear rotten fruit; a rotten tree does not bear good fruit. Are figs gathered from thorns, or grapes from thistles? Every tree is known by its fruit."

"No one who puts his hand to the plow and then looks back is fit for the kingdom of God."

"The harvest is abundant, but the workers are few; beg therefore the master of the harvest to send out workers into this harvest."

"Go. Look, I send you out as lambs among wolves."

"Be sure: If the owner of a house knew when a thief was coming, he wouldn't leave his house to be broken into. You also must be ready. For the son of man is coming at an hour you do not expect."
[yes, so true! :b ]
___

From 'Essential Jesus, Original Sayings/Earliest Images', by John Dominic Crossan:

"We walk in the shadow of the cross"

"A widow with no shame confronted a judge with no conscience. Time and again she pleaded for vindication before him. He finally gave in because, even if ethics did not bother him, she did."

"Only the wretched are guiltless"

"Only the despised are blameless"

"When you start a fire you want it to burn"

"Those not against you are for you
Those not for you are against you"

JM:D

Name: sam • Date: 06/13/07 1:43

A: Panluna,

You quoted this:
"To know,to understand and to accept are the keys to wisdom. "

WISDOM, being wise; soundness of judgment in matter relating to life and conduct.

To know, and to understand are not the key to wisdom. Knowledge and and understanding are not the factors, since a person can collect many degrees from the best univesities, and still not wise enough in matters that related to life and conduct. A wise person can be found in educated and not educated persons, and can only come from sound judgment and using the LOGIC.
For an example, Bush, he is well educated and can understand (not dumb), but he is for sure not a wise person in the life conducts, and I think there are many wiser than him, even with less education or even without any education. In life there are many examples about wise carpenter or fisherman or farmer etc..

TO ACCEPT !?. Cannot be a factor to be wise?. Shall we accept everything? without using the LOGIC and the sound judgment.
"KNOW", the knowledge are of many different kind some good others bad, some true and others false, some real and others unreal (MYTHS) . I do not think the person who just accept things without question them from the side of the logic or reality or from proven science is a wise person.
For an example, a person who kneel in front of a statue or picture and ask them favours, or light a candle or bring food for them, cannot be discribed as a wise person, and the same goes to the person who worship animals, no matter how match knowledge or understanding he possess cannot be counted among the wise.

God bless you.

Name: Panluna • Date: 06/13/07 15:46

A: Sam,
Knowledge gives you power.To understand anything :religion,culture,attitude and mentality leads to acceptance of differing view points which can be incorporated if one chooses or simply accepted as tolerance.Wisdom developes when a person learns how and when to accept or change things.Sometimes it's easier to be passive when the situation involves dealing with a brick-wall mentality.And sometimes if the situation warrants it ,it is necessary to convince someone to change their view point.It always leads to a good argument.And it's wiser to limit it to words only.Aggresive action causes problems.
The saying I quoted is from Buddha"To know,to understand and to accept are the keys to wisdom"

Name: JMD • Date: 06/14/07 6:18

A: From "The Path to Tranquility" by His Holiness The Dalai Lama (India, 1998):

"It seems to me that Western science and Eastern philosophy can join together to create a really complete and full-fledged human being. It is only in this way that man will emerge strengthened from his condition and become whole. What in fact interests me is what is beyond matter and awareness, what really is important, and what makes us what we are."

"Taking your own body and mind as the laboratory, engage in some thoroughgoing research on your own mental functioning, and examine the possibility of making some positive changes within yourself."

"I understand the meaning of one being 'open' as being like an open door; it can open very easily, without difficulty. 'Free' is also the same. As a result of being free and open, the more you receive new ideas, it makes you want to give out more of your energy. That way, each helps the other. It is very useful, very necessary; especially these days."

____

A Gnostic credo from the second century C.E.
[note: Harold Bloom gives a sermon upon this credo, in his book "Omens of Millennium" (1996)]

What makes us free is the Gnosis
of who we were
of what we have become
of where we were
of wherein we have been thrown
of whereto we are hastening
of what we are being freed
of what birth really is
of what rebirth really is

JM:D

Name: sam • Date: 06/15/07 0:52

A: Panluna,

You said:
The saying I quoted is from Buddha , To know,to understand and to accept are the keys to wisdom .

MY FIRST QUESTION, are those words for sure came from Buddha?, knowing that writing did come after 400years. So let us KNOW and UNDERSTAND things before ACCEPTING it.

Who is Buddha?.
Buddha as it was told, is a young prince with a good heart who came to see the real world outside the wall of his father palaces, and witness the suffering of the people, which led him to a journey to find the truth, and to think of ways to eliminates those sufferings.
Buddha is a real person in history, and some part of the story about him can be true, but did he write the book which the Buddhist reads and believe in everything that came with from unlogical stories as the true stories, and without any question ?.
( The following are summaries of information taken from Wikipedia encyclopedia)

— “The time of his birth and death are uncertain; most modern historians by the end of the nineteenth century and during the first half of the twentieth date his lifetime from about 563 to 483 BCE, but more recently the majority of scholars advocate dates around 410 or 400.”
Since no one is sure about the period that Buddha lived in, then how they know the rest of his life stories?. Where is the logic?, SPECIALLY AFTER WE COME TO KNOW THE FOLLOWING STORY.
— “Gautama, also known as Shakyamuni , is the key figure in Buddhism, and accounts of his life, discourses, and monastic rules were summarized AFTER HIS DEATH ( by ORAL tradition), the collection of discourses attributed to Gautama, was committed to WRITING ABOUT 400 YEAR LATER.”
The ORAL TRADITION of keeping the records and the stories for 400 years, cannot be trusted to be safe in keeping the true records. Stories can be changed specially when people opinion and their philosophy became involved. That is a fact.
— THE ORIGINAL TEACHINGS of the historical Buddha are EXTREMELY DIFFICULT, if not impossible, TO RECOVER OR RECONSTRUCT.”
That is a fact too.
— “It is unknown what language the Buddha spoke, and no conclusive documentation has been made at this point.”
That prove the whole stories are not from Buddha , but from the work and imagination of the philosophers who created this religion in that period of time, and the stories grow by the years. If they are not sure about his language, or about his teaching which is impossible to recover, so, how can they be sure about everything else?.

The stories: (from Buddhist religion)

1- “There is nothing that Buddha does not know. Because he has awakened from the sleep of ignorance and has removed all obstructions from his mind, he knows everything of the past, present, and future .”

-------- That is what the others wrote about him. But is that true?, does he know the future?. Does any human know the future?.

2- “After training in this meditation for six years he realized that he was very close to attaining full enlightenment, and so he walked to Bodh Gaya where, on the full moon day of the fourth month of the lunar calendar, he seated himself beneath the Bodhi Tree in the meditation posture”

--------- Was there anyone with him for six years as a witness?, and who realized that Buddha realized that he was very close to attaining the FULL ENLIGHTENMENT?.

3-“ Before the Buddha was born into this world as Shakyamuni, he was a bodhisattva in the Tushita heaven (home of the contented gods). His name there was Shvetaketu ( White Banner ).

--------- The people who wrote his stories even they know his story before he was born . Can anyone with clear mind believe in such a thing?.

4 - “When he was twenty-nine years old, the prince had a vision in which all the Buddhas of the ten directions appeared to him.”

-------- Paul’s VISION, he saw Jesus !, He appeared to him, and visited the third heaven ! , & the Emperor in Rome saw vision too !! . All written in the books, but should we believe in everything written without using the LOGIC ?.

5- “After they had traveled about six miles, the prince dismounted from his horse and bade farewell to his aide. He then cut off his hair and threw it into the sky, where it was caught by the gods of the Land of the Thirty-three Heavens. One of the gods then offered the prince the saffron robes of a religious mendicant.”

---------Thirty-three heavens, WOW, a very interesting number. He throw his hair into the sky & caught by the GODS , WOW, WOW, but how many gods, I think they forget to count them. Did anyone witnesses this magic?, Did anyone saw THE GODS CATCHING THE HAIRS?.

6- “The prince accepted these and gave his royal garments to the god in exchange. In this way he ordained himself as a monk.”

--------- WOW, WHAT BEAUTIFUL STORIES. But they make a very simple mistake, first they said his hair was received by gods (many of them), second, they said he gave his garments to the god (one god) in exchange for his hair ?. Those are beautiful stories for entertaining, and they hold between their lines many good philosophic idea which may achieve harmony in the human life, but came in sort of myth stories mixed with the facts of life. IT IS A PHILOSOPHICAL BELIEF, AND NOT A RELIGION.

7- “As dusk fell, Devaputra Mara, the chief of all the demons, or maras, in this world, tried to disturb Siddhartha's”.

---------Even they know the chief of all demons by name, WOW. How can anyone believe in such a thing?.

8- “As the young prince grew up he mastered all the traditional arts and sciences without needing any instruction. He knew sixty-four different languages, each with their own alphabet.”

--------- He knew all these languages and their alphabets, before 400 years from the time of introducing the alphabets. Can that be true?.

9- “At one time, when he was taking part in an archery contest, he declared, With the bow of meditative concentration I will fire the arrow of wisdom and kill the tiger of ignorance in living beings. (This part is an example and can be accepted). He then released the arrow and it flew straight through five iron tigers and seven trees before disappearing into the earth .”

----------The second part here is no more than a created myth story, and I do not think that any wise person will believe that this thing can happen in reality, it is a sort of imagination only.

10- “Through the force of his concentration, the weapons, rocks, and mountains appeared to him as a rain of fragrant flowers, and the raging fires became like offerings of rainbow lights.”

---------- WHAT A BEAUTIFUL PHILOSOPHY INDEED.

MY LAST QUESTION: After reading what they mentioned about Buddha, Can you tell me if you are sure that what you quoted from Buddha words are his words?

God bless you.

Name: Panluna • Date: 06/15/07 1:58

A: Sam,
i wasn't there when he said those words but I attended a Buddhist meeting 30 years ago when those words were first heard by me and they said with me.I don't remember the work the quote was from.Thank you for all the information about Buddha.Words and stories were handed down as oral tradition before people were able to write them down and it was up to the story-teller to recount the current version and I don't think is was completely told verbatum.Everyone has their own version.---very much the same way history is told as it is viewed. I wonder what the language was that Buddha spoke---it could be Sanskrit or an Indo dialect.Many of the Buddhist chants are in Sanskrit.An example is OM MANI PADME HUM--unfortunately my computor doesn't convert to Sanskrit letters.I'm sure their alphabet is on Wikipedia.
Do you know if the Old Testament stories of the Bible were written before Moses was born?

Name: Patty • Date: 06/15/07 4:46

A: The sharper the knowledge, the fewer the words.

Name: Panluna • Date: 06/15/07 14:30

A: Patty,
You don't get anything from a quiet clam until you open it's shell.
Welcome to the posts.

Name: Panluna • Date: 06/15/07 15:31

A: Sam,
When someone achieves the state of alternate realities and plane levels through the steps meditation can lead down to ,that spiral path is always subjective--namely inward looking--and it would be impossible for someone else to see and share those visions unless that person experiences it first hand.Meditation is never objective.And stories can be embellished to make them interesting.But if someone has a heightened sense of psychic ability or train themselves they get impressions from another person or synchronization.There were no witnesses present when I saw my apparitions and I wasn't even meditating.
The lessons I learned from Buddhism and meditation are very calming and must be a good thing for devotees as it's philosophy has endured for centuries.Yoga and Tai Chi are very benificial healthwise.And not too strainuous.Anyone can do them if they can move on their own.There are different types of meditation.There is chanting a favorite phrase which helps to focus the mind.There is staring into a candle flame which trains the mind to focus ad excludes distractions.There is creative visualization which could be considered day-deaming but the mind thinks on a subject in association or reaches and maintains a mental image that is a complete picture of the main subject.it's like putting a mental puzzle together that only the person meditating can see.And then there is the Stil-point which means you train that voice in your head to slow down to a point where you reach a pause either between two words or the word you stopped at.It's like having brain-fart only you're not speaking so no one else hears it.It works well with chanting.All of these exercises take concentration and no interruptions.My favorite meditation is the Chakra medition-also known as the ( rainbow )Wheels of Light.The snake represents energy as it rises when the spinning rainbow colored discs are connecting..Dattaswami could tell you more about the Hindu version of this meditation technique.There are some really good audio training CDs and tapes available.So if you are interested in reaching the innerlight for better universal rapport this is great way to achieve it.Give yourself a chance--you might be surprized with what you percieve.But that's your choice.I benifit from it everyday.

Name: sam • Date: 06/15/07 20:33

A: Panluna,

You asked two questions, and I did spend many hours to try to find the answer.
A- “I wonder what the language was that Buddha spoke---it could be Sanskrit or an Indo dialect”
Here some of my findings in W.E.

“The Sanskrit language is a classical language of India, a liturgical language of Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism, and Jainism, and one of the 23 official languages of India. It has the same status in Nepal as well.
Its position in the cultures of South and Southeast Asia is akin to that of Latin and Greek in Europe and the Mediterranean.”

----------Knowing that Buddha lived in that part of the world, and born into place where the Hinduism philosophy were taught in Sanskrit language, all that make believe that was his mother language. The Buddhism philosophy which been taught by him and the others, it is the mixture of two, since Buddha learned and practiced Hinduism during his journey, but then left to bring his own thoughts.

B- “Do you know if the Old Testament stories of the Bible were written before Moses was born?”
----------There are many books in the O.T., Genesis was the first and was written before Moses (in the period between Abraham and Jacob), and no one sure who wrote this book.
Also no one is sure100% about who wrote what in the rest of the books, that is fact.

“The five books of TORAH are, Genesis Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. Those books are all ascribed to Moses, as told to Him DIRECTLY BY GOD.”
----------That is what I read in the “Torah site”, and that is a false statement, since those books were not completely written by Moses, because they mentioned before that He wrote most, and that mean not ALL.

Here some quotations from, W.E.

“In ancient Egyptian language, the word “MO” meant "water" while the word “SA” meant "son". His complete name "MOSA" would mean "the son of water" as he was found in a basket in water.”
“The Book of Exodus begins many years after the close of the Book of Genesis at the end of which the Israelites were dwelling in relative harmony with the native Egyptians in the Land of Goshen, the eastern part of the Nile Delta.
Much of the material in the TORAH is traditionally attributed to Moses. He is also an important prophet in Islam Faith..

---------The Torah (the five books) attributed to Moses, but here it says that Genesis come long time before the Exodus?.

Moses in Islam
Main article: Islamic view of Moses
In the Qur'an, the life of Moses (Arabic: Mosa) is narrated and recounted more than any other prophet recognized in Islam (136 times). The Qur'an narrates much of Moses' life in relation to God. The Qur'an and the Bible are similar on the basic outline of Moses' life.

--------- Here I found some interesting point. The first name that was given to the boy who was found in the river is “MOSA”, “THE SON OF WATER”, and that is the name all the people around calling Him, while the Jews after called Him “MOSHE”, and that was His known name for thousands of years and until now. For sure the prophet Muhammad before He received God’s message by the Quran He was known to Him by the name MOSHE like the rest, but the Quran, the words of God mentioned His original name MOSA and 136 times. I think the word of God is the true one.

God bless you.

Name: Panluna • Date: 06/15/07 22:23

A: Sam,
Thank you for the information.That's alot of research.Do you think that maybe the differences in Moses's name could be because one version is Egyptian another version could be Hebrew and the last version could be the Moslim spelling and pronunciation.Are the Arabic languages and dialects the same among the Arabic people or are the dialects similar to Aramaic,Egyptian or Hebrew?The only Arabic word I know is wadi--meaning water. Is it the same for all the tribes or are there variations?Sanskrit is the original root language.I wonder if the Sumerians and the Babylonians spoke their own dialect and founded the Arabic language.

Name: Shlomo • Date: 06/16/07 4:58

A: Mosa means: "drawn a son out of water" in Egyptian language. The name was actually Mashui "one that has been drawn out." The name Moshe means "one that draws out" [ i.e. draw out the people from Egypt].

The reason the Bible and the Ku'ran are similair is due to the fact that the writers of the Ku'ran copied and altered the verses from the Bible and other books were included to match Mohammed's belief he was a prophet. To solidify his position and build a foundation, he needed to convince the world and this he did through inventing a book and by forced conversion. Mohammed was very familair with the Bible, he lived and grew up among the Hebrews and Christians [ Medina, Mecca ]. He was not accepted by the people as a prophet simply on the basis he did not meet the requirements of a true prophet.

Name: sam • Date: 06/16/07 16:08

A: Panluna,

ABOUT THE ORIGIN OF LANGUAGES; Arabic &Hebrew:

“Aramaic is a group of Semitic languages. It is the original language of large sections of the biblical books of Daniel and Ezra, and is the main language of the TALMUD. Aramaic is believed to have been the NATIVE LANGUAGE OF JESUS.” (W.E)

From the SEMITIC came, ARAMAIC....ARABIC....HEBREW, languages.
The African languages are, BERBER....CHADIC....CUSHITI-C....SEMITIC...EGYPTIAN.
-- From that we notice that there is no relations between the Arabic and Egyptian languages.

“ARAMAIC is also related to ARABIC, being part of the more diverse Central Semitic languages; one possible source for ARABIC ALPHABET.” (W.E)

“The Coptic language is direct descendent of the ANCIENT EGYPTIAN language. Which was written in EGYPTIAN HIEROGLYPHIC.” (W.E)
I hope that will be of some help in answering your question “Do you think that maybe the differences in Moses's name could be because one version is Egyptian another version could be Hebrew and the last version could be the Moslim spelling and pronunciation.
Mosa name in the quran (in Arabic) was the same name that been given to him first by the Egyptian, while the names that been given to him by the Jews and the Chritians are not as you wiil see later on in this post.

When the Wikipedia Encyclopedia bring it is work, it does not depend on the view point of the Jews or the Christians or the Muslims, but on real scientific analysis, so, when they say this:
“In ancient Egyptian language, the word “MO” meant "water" while the word “SA” meant "son". “
— “MO” & “SA” are Egyptians words (not hebrew), spoken by the Egyptians (not by the Jews), and they mean “SON” & “WATER”. MOSA was the first name which was chosen for the child by the Egyptian princess who save him and took him as her own child. But it seams that the Jews always try to switch the truth.
Let us see what our friend SHLOMO wrote:
A- “Mosa means: "drawn a son out of water" in Egyptian language.”
--------- The name MOSA came from two words MO & SA in the Egyptian Language “SON”& “WATER” (2 words only), But here we find that the Jewish version came different by adding “DRAWN” & “OUT”. I wonder if Shlomo will be kind enough to find out the Egyptian words for “DRAWN & OUT”. Since the name was given by the Egyptians and was written in Hieroglyphic, and not by the Jews and in their Hebrew language.

B- “ The name was actually MASHUI "one that has been drawn out." The name MOSHE means "one that draws out" [ i.e. draw out the people from Egypt].”

-------- Here we find out again that Shlomo try to make the things fit in anyway he could!!!, so, he brought different names for MOSA, (MASHUI & MOSHE - his Jewish name) knowing that the people who read his work (mostly Christians) will believe in it since the chances of them knowing the Hebrew language is close to none, and the Jews will support him right or wrong.

As we find out from the W.E. that the Egyptian language is different from the Aramaic language, but the Arabic and Hebrew languages are from the same branch, and there are many similar words in both of them. For example:
Shalome.....Salam....peace.
Nefe-sh.......Nafs.......breath.
Ben...........-.Ebn........son.
Yom..........Yom.......da-y.- Etc.

MASHUI, is one word and suppose to have single meaning only, as we notice in the example above , but to translated to, “one/ that has been/ drawn/ out" is completely wrong.

Shlomo, can you please give the exact English translation to the word MASHUI.

In Arabic we have a similar name which is “MASHA” and it means “WALK”, and from that word in Arabic will come “MASHU” they walk, and “MASHEINA” we walk.
If the Hebrew word Mashui & Moshe had the similar meaning as in Arabic then those name has no relation to the name that been given to him when he was found but the name which was given to him by his followers the Jews who MASHUI/ WALK with him and lost their way for forty years in the desert.

Panluna, you mentioned this, “The only Arabic word I know is wadi--meaning water”.
In Arabic WADI is VALLEY.... and WATER is MA’A, and when mentioning many source/body of water then we use the word MEYAH, as an ex. MEYAH AL-ANHAR, the waters of the rivers.

God bless you.

Name: sam • Date: 06/16/07 22:50

A: Shlomo,

You said :
A- “The reason the Bible and the Ku'ran are similair is due to the fact that the writers of the Ku'ran copied and altered the verses from the Bible and other books”
------ You are wrong and what you said has no proof, but it is a complete lie. The prophet Muhammad could not read or write, and the Message that came to Him from God by the angel Gabriel He delivered it in spoken words to His apostles to be recorded on the spot, no time gap to leave room for change, and the complete Quran came while the prophet alive and not a word changed in that book until now. Everyone knows the stories of the many books of the bible and the many books of the Gospels which been written by many people and in long period of time, and all the wrong information that brought within them.
“Scholars have estimated that the Bible contains over two thousand explicit or implicit contradictions. Some are major, some trivial” You can read 220 of them in PAT’S post (03-11-07) under the title “Different Body ???”.
The story of creation in Genesis is a big example when it mention that the earth was created before the sun and the moon and the stars!!!. And what about the story of Sarah & Hagar which full of hate and wrong information. God never give wrong information or teach hate but people do, you should at least know this fact.

HERE some verses from the Quran , you tell from which part of the Bible and the Gospel where taken?. do not forget to answer back by bringing the one that similar, and do not jump to bring something else as it is always the case with many others.

Q- 41:53 We will show them our signs in the horizons and within themselves until it becomes clear to them that it is the truth. (He is the truth). But is it not sufficient concerning your LORD that he is, over all things, a witness.
Q-65:12 It is GOD who has created seven heavens and the earth, THE LIKE OF THEM.
(the people who wrote your books they thought that the earth is the center of world. There are discoveries of many planets out there.)

Q-29:20 (O MUHAMMAD), say to them“go travel through the earth and observe HOW THE CREATION BEGAN.
(Jews and Christians until very recently did not allow people to look beyond their books)

Q-21:30 Have those who disbelieved not considered that THE HEAVEN AND EARTH WERE A JOINED ENTITY, AND WE SEPARATED THEM, and made from water every living things, then will they not believe?.
(Is that the BIG BANG theory?)

Q-51:47 And THE HEAVEN we constructed with strength, and indeed, WE ARE (ITS) EXPANDER.
(Is that the EXPANDING UNIVERSE theory?. )

Q-21:33 And it is HE who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all heavenly bodies, in an orbit are swimming.

(Every object in the universe is moving, the moon orbiting the earth, and both orbiting the sun, and all of them orbiting our galaxy, and our galaxy orbiting what?, GOD knows.)

Q-13:41 Have they not seen that we set upon THE EARTH REDUCING IT FROM IT IS BORDER?.
(The earth diameter on the equator is 12756 km. And its diameter in the poles is less by few hundreds of kilometer.)

Q-27:88 And you see THE MOUNTAINS, thinking them RIGID (STATIONARY), while they are passing as passing of clouds.
(The earth rotation around its axis is 1666 km/hr, but we do not feel it, and the mountains seems to be standing still, and only in the late centuries the scientist discover those facts about the moving earth.)

Q-21:32 And we made the sky a PROTECTED CEILING, but they, from its signs are turning away.
(IIs that the OZONE, which protect us from the deadly radiation of our sun?, )

Q-7:56 And CAUSE NOT CORRUPTION upon the earth after its reformation.
(Now the people understand the meaning of what came in the Quran before 1400 years, and what will happen if the people do damage the air and the water and the earth.)

Q-40:57 The creation of the heavens and earth is greater than the creation of mankind, but most of the peoples do not know.
(Those are the words of God.)

Q-22:73 O people, an example is presented so listen to it. Indeed, those you invoke beside GOD will never create (as much as) a fly, even if they gathered together for it (i.e., that purpose). And if the fly should steal from them a tiny things, they could not recover it from him. WEAK ARE THE PURSUER AND PURSUED.
(It is just an example to show us how weak we are, even when compared to a fly. God created the human and the fly and everything else from nothing, but can we really create a living fly?)

Q-50:17 Indeed in that is a reminder for whoever has a hart or who listen while he is present (in mind).
(only those people who are with clear mind can understand the words of GOD.)

Q-39::27 And we have certainly presented for the people in the QUR’AN from every (kind of) example - that they might remember.
(In the Quran, GOD presented a whole range of examples, and I brought here only few, so which one you deny?)

Q-51:20 And on the earth are SIGNS for the certain (in faith).
21 AND IN YOURSELVES. Then will you not see?.
(Can anyone look at his body and see how it was made and how it works, to find in it the sign, the sign that God created from dust and water.)

Q-30:20 And of HIS SIGNS is that HE created you from dust; then, suddenly you were human beings dispersing throughout the earth.

Q-27:93 HE will show you HIS SIGNS, and you will recognize them, and your LORD is not unaware of what you do.

Q-40:81 And HE show you HIS SIGNS. So which of the signs of GOD you deny ?.

Q-38: 87 It is but a reminder to the worlds.
88 AND YOU WILL SURELY KNEW ABOUT IT AFTER TIME.
(Many of the information that came in the Quran came to be known later on, as "every object in the sky run in an orbit... and the figertips that differentiate people".)

Q-21:104 The day when WE will fold the heaven like folding of the books. As WE began the first creation, WE will repeat it. That is a promise binding upon US. Indeed, we will do it.
(God created, and God has the power to end it, and created again.)
...........................
B- Mohammed was very familair with the Bible, he lived and grew up among the Hebrews and Christians [ Medina, Mecca ].

-------------Shlomo, I myself grew up among Christian and Jews, and I was familiar to see them going to churches and synagoge,and I been educated in a Catholic school for five years, and so all my brother, and so my son, but hardly we know anything about their religions, and what is written in their books, as for me I came to know things after I read the books, and that was only from few years only, and it is the same for the prophet, and He did not read your books because He connot read period. Your claim is completely wrong again.

C-He was not accepted by the people as a prophet simply on the basis he did not meet the requirements of a true prophet.
---------- Jesus He had all the requirements needed to show Himself as a prophet (more than Moses) , and with all His miracles, and the biggest miracle that happen on earth by binging a dead man to life, all were not accepted by the Jews to accept his message from God!!!. But He was humiliated and so His followers, and many were killed and tortured.
I think God knows that all the method that He use in bringing His message to the people did not work ( the requirements), so The last message sent by words, HIS WORD, GOD'S WORD ONLY, no miracles, and knowing that the people will advance in the future to understand His words and believe in the message and keep His laws, the same laws that came to Moses and Jesus and adding more needed laws. And this time He make sure that His message is more important than the messenger., so people do not make of the messenger God or part of God. Here what the Quran say to His prophet Muhammad:

Q-17:54 And WE have not sent you [O Muhammad], over them as a manager.

Q-34:28 And WE have not sent you except comprehensivly to mankind as a bringer of good tidings and a warner. But most of the people do not know.

So, Shlomo, Can you tell me what are the requirements are to prove the identity of the prophet?. I know that you believe in many other prophets who came before moses, but what requirements were needed for them to be accepted by the Jews?,Please give me an answer from you or your books explaining those neede requirements, and thanks in advance.

God bless you.

Name: Shlomo • Date: 06/17/07 1:41

A: Sam,

You appear to have the resources and background of other religious knowledge. If so, then you should be aware of the key requirements of a true prophet and can determine which are false and which are true. If you can not, then you are in a situation of where a veil is covering your true understanding of G_d.

Name: Panluna • Date: 06/17/07 15:30

A: WOW!!!
Thank you Sam for the information.The Arch-Angel Gabriel is the messege-bringer.I thought Mohhamed was educated.How long did he spend in Gabriel's presence in order to recieve the information he passed on?Was the idea of Islam to unite the Arabic people under one God---Allah?Also Gabriel is the Angel who appeared to Mary,Jesus's mother.
Happy Father's Day to all the daddies on these posts.We're going to have a barbeque for my hubby.

Name: sam • Date: 06/17/07 17:11

A: Shlomo,

In your post of (06-016-07 0:58) you mentioned the following:
"He was not accepted by the people as a prophet simply on the basis he did not meet the REQUIREMENTS of a true prophet. "

-----OF COURCE THAT GOES FOR JESUS AS WELL AS MUHAMMAD, SINCE BOTH WERE NOT ACCEPTED BY YOUR RABBI AND THEIR FOLLOWERS.

---Here we can see clearly that the Jews has a set REQUIREMENTS for a prophet to be accepte by their Rabbi, WHICH YOU BROUGHT UP.

So, my question to you came after (06-16-07 18:50):
"So, Shlomo, Can you tell me what are the REQUIREMENTS are to prove the identity of the prophet?. I know that you believe in many other prophets who came before moses, but what REQUIREMENTS were needed for them to be accepted by the Jews?,Please give me an answer from you or your books explaining those neede REQUIREMENTS, and thanks in advance."

-----But YOU RUN AWAY from answering My questions about the things (the REQUIREMENTS) which you brought up in the first place and gave this wrong statement WHICH IS NOT AN ANSWER FOR "THE REQUIREMENTS QUESTION !!!.

Shlomo, in (06-16-07 21:41) post You said:
"You appear to have the resources and background of other religious knowledge. If so, then you should be aware of the key requirements of a true prophet and can determine which are false and which are true. If you can not, then you are in a situation of where a veil is covering your true understanding of G_d."

Also, YOU RUN AWAY from bringing the proof to your claim about the Quran words, when you said: " the Ku'ran copied and altered the verses from the Bible".

Shlomo, I brought many verses from the Quran, so please read them and tell me from which bible been copied, because that is what you claim and you should always support your claims by facts. I hope you understand what that means.

----From reading the Bible I did not come upon something called the REQUIREMENTS to be a prophet, so, for sure when you mention them then it must be written somewhere, and I might miss them, so please be kind and tell me in which book and in what verses they come in.
And also I would like to know where I can find the similar of those verses that I brought from the Quran in the Bible.

When I said that the Bible is full of errors, and cannot be the word of God, I can support my claim with facts, and I hope you can do the same.

Pat, mentioned 220 of contradictions and errors, that been taken from more than 2000, and the retired Bishop John S. Spong wrote this:
"THE BIBLE FULL OF CONTRADICTIONS AND ERRORS."
"THE GOSPELS CANNOT BE TRUSTED TO BE RELIABLE."
----- Of cource the Bishop spent years in reading those books, and preaching them, and he did not say what he said if he had no proof for his claim.

Shlomo, please read your first statement again, and support what you claim in it by facts, because I am seeking the truth and nothing else.
And from your last statement I can say that ,"you are in a situation of where a veil is covering your true understanding of God."

Shlomo, You believe in one God, and that God walked with man on earth, but I belive in one God (the same God) but I do not believe that God came and walked with man. You believe in all the prophets until Moses, and you deny Jesus and Muhammad, but I believe in all your prophets, and Moses and Jesus and Muhammad. You believe in the Torah (the Bible) and you do not believe in the Gospels or the Quran period, but I do believe in the Torah and the Gospels and the words that came from Abraham, Moses and Jesus only, because the others who brought their own stories cannot be accepted if they are full with errors.
And I believe that the Quran is the only book who brought a lot of facts about the creation, which make it more accepted to be the holy word of God.

God bless you.

Name: sam • Date: 06/17/07 20:18

A: Panluna,

Thank you, and God bless you and your hubby, have a wonderful time. We missed the barbeque, since we moved to an apartment from 10 years, but my wife is inviting me to “Mandarin”, a Chinese restaurant which serve a barbeque chicken & cabob among other buffet foods, and of course it is not the same, but we should not complain, always we are thankful to God to what He gave us, even when we drink a glass of water we (I think most of the Muslims do) say “ Al-humd lil-lah”, and that “The thanks to God”.
A- I thought Mohammed was educated?.
------- The truth is Muhammad could not read or write, and this fact is known to all Muslims from 1400 years ago and until now, and also it is well known by the people of the churches and the synagogues, and many of well educated people in these religions, but it is will known that they try to keep this fact away from their followers, by telling them the contrary, and tell them that the Quran was written by Mohammad, and that the Quran information were taken from other books, as I heard many times from Christians & Jews in every post that I visit (N.G. one of them), and the last came from our friend SHLOMO, when he said this:
“the writers of the Ku'ran copied and altered the verses from the Bible and other books”
That is for sure what he been taught by his leaders, and he follow them blindly without using his own search to find the truth!.
and then you said “ I thought Mohammed was educated?.”, all that make me wonder how can people judge the Islam religion, and the Messenger (Muhammad), and the message (the Quran) without knowing anything about it. That is what the people of churches and the synagogue wanted for sure , and for sure they do not want to bring the truth because that might effect on their positions, which they might lose all the material profits, forgetting the truth and God and the day of judgment!!!.
I am glad that you brought some questions, thank you, and I will try to answer them from what I learn in the last few years, and from what I can get from information in the many other sites, those maybe have more knowledge than me. That will be in MY NEXT POST.

God bless you.

Name: Panluna • Date: 06/18/07 11:47

A: Hi Sam,
Hope you enjoyed your dinner and Father's Day.
I don't know anything about Islam.it's a new religion for me to explore.I thought Mohammed had written the Koran or Qu'ran---I've seen it spelt both ways.Do you know anything about his life?Was he rich or poor?Did he tend sheep?And who actualy wrote the Qu'ran?I asked Roy who is a Moslim why the Shiites and Sunnis fight all the time.He gave me an answer on one of the previous posts.You would think that the Arch Angel Gabriels messege would have brought peace to the Middle East since from what i've read various people and scriptures from the Old and New Testament were included.
I post only on this website.It's easier for me to keep up with things.I notice there are less people posting here than originally started.In about a week or so we wil be going on a road trip along the Coast for several weeks.I'm looking forward to seeing the Redwoods again and some other old friends.And I have alot of new books to read for this trip.
It wil be interesting to see what developes while I'm away.Hopefully new people will join us.

Name: sam • Date: 06/18/07 13:42

A: Panluna,

My day yesterday was great, specially when I get my grandson school report as a surprise from my son who call and told me to open my mail.
Here are his marks:

ST. MARK SCHOOL.
Reading A+
Language A+
Spelling A+
Mathematic A+
Science A+
Social studies A+
TEACHER COMMENTS: XXXX, It was a pleasure to have you in my class this year. Have a wonderful summer and enjoy 3rd grade.

For us this is a great gift, and we thank God for giving us a good son and daughter and grandson.

God bless you.

Name: sam • Date: 06/18/07 15:42

A: Panluna,

In about a week or so we wil be going on a road trip along the Coast for several weeks.I'm looking forward to seeing the Redwoods again

I wish you all the best for your trip. I would like to know if you live in California, or another state?, and are you traveling by car?.

Four years ago, we did take a 28 days trip (10600km) visiting 9 states, and I did drive all the way by miself (my wife doesn't drive). We started from Toronto, and after spending 6 days in Las Vegas, and had a good time with our in-laws who came from Pennsylvania, we visited Los Angeles and from there we took the costal hwy 101, then the road 1 all the way to San Francisco, and it was the most beautiful scenic mountain/ocean road. By the way we saw montain goats and a young deer who jumped in front of my car in an area with the speed limit of 15-20 M/H , and everyone from those car behind me came to watch and take pictures for this litlle guy and his family crossing the road slowly.

Another places which is good to visit are, MONTEREY, and the beautiful LAKE TAHOE (we visited the site of the famous TV series "BONANZA", the famous Pendarosa farm) which was a complete surprise for us, since we like to watch this series, and my wife she likes Little Joe?. By the way this show still on TV in Canada now and we watch it so often.
Then the Sault Lake City. 100 miles before entering the city on hwy 80 we pass by many places where the steam come from the ground, and while we driving, it rains, and what a wonderful site!!!, the white foam bubbles covered all the land as far as we can see. after that we visited the mountains (Olympic village) and it Was very cold (end of june!), and the Mormon temples, plus many other attractions.

I do not know if you visited those places, but I feel that you like travelling, and that is why I mentioned those places, hopping that you and evryone who read my words think about it, because there is no pleasure equal than seeying the land and the nature.

The total cost of the trip was $3400 Ca. from door to door, My wife started recording averything in a small book, and she is good at keeping records.
That is because when we plan our trip "as always" we did not plan to see luxury hotel or visit expensive reastaurant or to walk into cities, but our plan mainly was to see the land & the nature.

Hope to hear more about your trip when you come back.

God bless you.

Name: CanuckChick • Date: 06/18/07 18:24

A: Re false prophets:

The three essentials for establishing the credentials of a true prophet, as given through Moses, were:

1) The true prophet would speak in Jehovah's name; the things foretold would come to pass. "However, the prophet who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded him to speak or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die. And in case you should say in your heart: ""How shall we know the word that Jehovah has not spoken?"" when the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak. With presumptuousness the prophet spoke it. You must not get frightened at him." (Deut 18:20-22)

2) His prophecying must promote true worship, being in harmony with God's revealed word and commandments. "In case a prophet or a dreamer of a dream arises in your midst and does give you a sign or a portent, and the sign or the portent does come true of which he spoke to you, saying, "Let us walk after other gods, whom you have not known, and let us serve them," you must not listen to the words of that prophet or to the dreamer of that dream, because Jehovah your God is testing you to know whether you are loving Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul. After Jehovah your God you should walk, and him you should fear, and his commandments you should keep, and to his voice you should listen, and him you should serve, and to him you should cling. And that prophet or that dreamer of the dream should be put to death, because he has spoken of revolt against Jehovah your God, who has brought you out of the land of Egypt and has redeemed you from the house of slaves, to turn you from the way in which Jehovah your God has commanded you to walk; and you must clear out what is evil from your midst." (Deut 13:1-5)

3) A true prophet would be an advocate of righteousness, and his message dealt primarily with moral standards and their application. He expressed God's mind on matters. "He has told you, O earthling man, what is good. And what is Jehovah asking back from you but to exercise justice and to love kindness and to be modest in walking with your God." (Micah 6:8) "Learn to do good; search for justice; set right the oppressor; render judgment for the fatherless boy; plead the cause of the widow." (Isa 1:17)

Jesus' later warning concerning false prophets paralleled that of Moses. Though using his hame, and giving "signs and wonders to lead astray", their fruits would prove them "workers of lawlessness." "Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to you in sheep's covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they?" (Matt 7:15,16) "Not everyone saying to me, ""Lord, Lord"", will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day, ""Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?"" And yet then I will confess to them: ""I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness.""" (Matt 7:21-23)

Does Muhammed meet the standards of a true prophet?

Name: Panluna • Date: 06/18/07 22:57

A: Hi Sam,
WOW!!!Your grandson is really smart! Straight A+!! Is he planning to become a doctor?With grades like that he can go really far in life!!!
We live in Washington and we have a travel trailor.We camp for most of our trips and have criss- crossed the US so many times I still find it incredible that we have seen all the lower 48 states except Colorado where my niece and her family live.We lived in Hawaii for 3 years and I have yet to see Alaska.My husband has traveled almost everywhere and someday I hope to see more of this planet. I love the Coast--especially the Pacific Ocean sunsets.We live north of Seattle.And we are planning a trip to Roswell and a road trip on the Alcan highway to Alaska within the next several years.I do love to travel but there is nothing like coming home! My son will be here to keep a eye on the house.He has to work anyway otherwise he would go with us.He is a computor technician and he graduated from DeVry several years ago.
Well I can't wait until we leave.Last year we visited White Cloud--the albino buffaloe in Jamestown N.D.She is held sacred by the Native Americans because she brings peace and prosperity.We saw her at the National Buffaloe Museum with the herd.She's the one that was in the news several years ago.There is a website for her.The National Park system is really awesome.the only time we stay in a motel is if we fly and Motel 66 is one of the most economical to stay at.Trailors can cost something,too but at least we don't have to check into a smokers' room or one next door to a wild party that goes on all night.I call our trailor a big suitcase on wheels.we can fit into most campgrounds and dry camp if we need to.And we bring our dog with us.He loves to travel and suffers from anxiety-separation attacks if we are not in his immediate sight.Travel is expensive but it's fun and well worth the experience.We leave next week and I can't wait to see the Coast,again.The most beautiful and wildest coastline is in northern California.We lived there for two years and Oregon for three years.Lots of wildlife--I'll be looking for Sasquatches.Thank you for your good wishes.

Name: sam • Date: 06/19/07 19:01

A: CanuckChick,

I was waiting for SHLOMO's answer, since he brought this claim, but instead you came to answer for him. That is OK

You asked:

-"Does Muhammed meet the standards of a true prophet? "
-"The three essentials for establishing the credentials of a true prophet, as given through Moses, were."

For sure I will answer your questions, but before that I would like to be sure about few things.

A- Sholomo as a Jew, he does not believe in Jesus (that is a fact), and Jesus as he understand, is a False prophet because , "He was not accepted by the people [the Jews] as a prophet simply on the basis he did not meet the requirements of a true prophet.-by Shlomo[by the Jews]" , is that correct?. And I think when they refuse to accept Jesus on the same bases that You brought from the Bible which you believe they are the rught requirements, That means they were the right ones and that makes Jesus a false prophet, that is what the logic say:

1- Deut 18:20-22........2- Deut 13:1-5....... 3- Isa 1-17, are they right or wrong?, because they cannot be right and wrong in the same time.
If they are right, that mean Jesus is false, and if they are wrong that means Jesus is right.
-----I WANT YOUR ANSWER, ARE THOSE REQUIRMENTS RIGHT OR WRONG???.
If Jesus did not meet these conditions THAT YOU ACCEPT AS TRUE, and the people of Mose did not accept Him, accordind to these three CONDITIONS, then how for God sake You accept Jesus as the son of God?, Is not He a false prophet to start with?, and in the same time you join hand with those who prosecuted Jesus and humiliated Him and delivered Him to the Romans to be killed?, and also you joined them using their rules to deny the message of God and deny His messenger Muhammad?!!!, can you tell me if that can be accepted by anyone who has a common sence, or understand logic?, or it came for the political use of today, because we know that the Jews suffered a lot and for thousand+ year from the ruler of the churches, can you deny this fact?.

B- Can you tell if Jesus did read the Bible and the [Deut] and knows these three rules/conditions when He started preaching His message?.

C- What was the language that Jesus spoke then?. Was it the ARAMAIC languge?. Did Jesus mention the name of God as Jehovah or "ALLAH"?, because In the decomentaty "The lost tomb of Jesus" there was a seen when Jesus was preaching to the peeople around Him and He said the word "ALLAH", so was that a false representation by those who brought this decomentary?.

D- You keep mentioning Jehovah, as he is different and the only name for God, do you think that the names "GOD', "DIEW", "ELI", ALLAH" and the many others names used are wrong?. can you tell me if I mention Him as "THE CREATOR" or "THE MERCIFUL" I will be wrong? .

E- You believe Jesus as the son of God, so what you think about Jesus words mentioning Himself as a prophet: In Mark,
6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.
6:4 But Jesus said unto them, A PROPHET is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.

------Was Jesus mentioning Himself as a PROPHET [since the offenders were his family, and the people of His hometown], or He was mentioning Moses or Jacob or Abraham etc. ?. I would like to hear your answer.

When you clear for me those points that I mentioed above, for sure I will answer your questions.

God bless you.

Name: sam • Date: 06/19/07 23:08

A: Panluna,

There are few questions in you last post, and I will try to answer them, but that might take a longer post, because there is no short answer for them, if we know that we are dealing with a very important matter.
You mentioned the following:

A- I don't know anything about Islam. it's a new religion for me to explore.
------- The meaning of the word “ISLAM” is to “submit to God”. The five pillars of Islam are: 1- To believe in God (one God-the creator). 2- To believe in His angels. 3- To believe in His messages (The Torah & the Gospels- only what came from God. For ex. Jesus words and Moses words, and not the others words). 4- To believe in His messengers (All His prophets-Abraham, Moses, Jesus, etc.). 5- To believe in the judgment day.
Here I would like to mention very important point, which is, that the message importance came before the messenger?. Why, because God’s words more important than the one who carry them. Who is more important to you, the letter that you get from your father or the postal worker who deliver it to you?.
------- Q-2:256 THERE SHALL BE NO COMPULSION IN ACCEPTING OF THE RELIGION.
It is clear here that Islam NEVER FORCE PEOPLE to follow it, it let people be free in their choice, and it is everuone responsibility to find the truth, and then everyone will be judged by HIM only, and that is different from what we know from the other religions, and that the people promised the heaven by human while still on earth.
.........................-............................

B--- I thought Mohammed had written the Koran or Qu'ran....And who actualy wrote the Qu'ran?.
--------- Muhammad could not read or write. I mentioned that before, and also how the Quran was written and by whom, in my previous posts. But in case that you want me to bring it again, please let me know.
--------- The Quran does not include the words of the propher, what the prophet said or did or act, all kept separate in books called “HADITH” and that is what He said, and “SIRAH” and that is the way He conducted His life.
--------- While the Quran brought the stories of other prophets (Moses mentioned 136 times, and Jesus 33 times, and Abraham 69 times), and their stories mostly about them only, and NOT the story of the many members of their families. Mohammad name came only 5 times, and only as what God asked Him to be and to do, for example, God told Him this:
Q- 34:28 And WE have not sent you [Muhammad] except comprehensively to mankind as a bringer of good tidings and a warner. But most of the people do not know.
Q- 17:65 Indeed, over MY believing servants there is for you [Muhammad] no authority. And sufficient is your LORD as Disposer of affairs.
Q- 3:144 Muhammad is not but a messenger. Other messengers have passed on before Him.
Q- 17: 65 Indeed, over MY believing servants there is for you [Muhammad] no authority. And sufficient is your LORD as disposer of affairs.

The question here is, “If Muhammad was a false prophet, then He will not say such a thing, but He will prove that he Has the power over the people”. We remember Paul’s way to force his teaching, and put Himself in charge over all the others, when he said:
1Cor 4:21 What you desire? Shall I come to you with A ROD, or with love and a spirit of gentleness? (I don’t think he gave them a choice)
Gal 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven [that is God angel], should preach to you A GOSPEL CONTRARY TO WHAT WE [that is me Paul, and my followers] have preached to you, HE IS TO BE ACCURSED!. (People have no choice and they cannot use their brain to find the truth !!!)

C- - Do you know anything about his life? Was he rich or poor? Did he tend sheep?
--------- Muhammad was born in 569 after the Christ. His father “Abdoullah” (the name means ‘the servant of God’ in Arabic), and His mother “Aminah” (the name means, ‘the trustworthy’). His father died some week earlier. His grandfather who took Him in charge. At the age of eight, His mother died and so His grandfather, He was orphaned at a young age and was brought up by his uncle Abu-Talib, a man who was generous of nature but always short of resources and hardly able to provide for his family.
Young Muhammad had therefore to start immediately to earn his livelihood; he served as a shepherd boy to some neighbors. later worked mostly as a merchant, and was married by age 26. At some point, discontented with life in Mecca, he retreated to a cave in the surrounding mountains for meditation and reflection.
He was forty years old, and it was the fifth consecutive year since his annual retreats, when one night, an angel came to Him and announced that God had chosen him as His messenger to all mankind. The angel taught him the mode of ablutions, the way of worshiping God, and the conduct of prayer. He communicated to him the following Divine message [the first message]:
With the name of God, the Most Merciful, the All-Merciful.
Read: with the name of thy Lord Who created,
Created man from what clings,
Read: and thy Lord is the Most Bounteous,
Who taught by the pen,
Taught man what he knew not. (Quran 96:1-5)
The Quran words received from the Angel throughout the years, until nearly His last days.
the Prophet went to Mecca for Hajj (pilgrimage), he met 140,000 Muslims there, who had come from different parts of Arabia to fulfil their religious obligation. He addressed to them his celebrated sermon (His last sermon), in which he gave a resume of his teachings: Belief in One God without images or symbols, equality of all the Believers without distinction of race or class, the superiority of individuals being based solely on piety; sanctity of life, property and honor; abolition of interest, and of vendettas and private justice; better treatment of women; obligatory inheritance and distribution of the property of deceased persons among near relatives of both sexes, and removal of the possibility of the cumulation of wealth in the hands of the few. The Quran and the conduct of the Prophet were to serve as the bases of law and a healthy criterion in every aspect of human life.
On his return to Madinah, he fell ill; and a few weeks later, he breathed his last.

Here some examples of the prophet Muhammad’s saying: [those are Muhammad words, and they are not included in the Quran, the Quran word should be always the one to follow]

- {The believers, in their love, mercy, and kindness to one another are like a body: if any part of it is ill, the whole body shares its sleeplessness and fever.}1

- {The most perfect of the believers in faith are the best of them in morals. And the best among them are those who are best to their wives.}2
- {None of you believes (completely) until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself.}3
- {The merciful are shown mercy by the All-Merciful. Show mercy to those on earth, and God will show mercy to you.}4
- {Smiling at your brother is charity...}5
- {A good word is charity.}6
- {Whoever believes in God and the Last Day (the Day of Judgment) should do good to his neighbor.}7
- {God does not judge you according to your appearance and your wealth, but He looks at your hearts and looks into your deeds.}8
- {Pay the worker his wage before his sweat dries.}9
- {A man walking along a path felt very thirsty. Reaching a well, he descended into it, drank his fill, and came up. Then he saw a dog with its tongue hanging out, trying to lick up mud to quench its thirst. The man said, “This dog is feeling the same thirst that I felt.” So he went down into the well again, filled his shoe with water, and gave the dog a drink. So, God thanked him and forgave his sins.} The Prophet was asked, “Messenger of God, are we rewarded for kindness towards animals?” He said: {There is a reward for kindness to every living animal or human.}10

As we all know from history past and present, that Emperors, Kings, Leaders, and even some people, they have statues made for them and buried into tombs made of marble covered by silver and gold, and if Muhammad was a false prophet then He might asked and got the same, But He did not, His will was to be buried, only wrapped in white cloth in a grave with a regular head stone, nothing else. He was afraid that His follower might make a golden tomb for Him and by the time He might become worshiped beside God as it happen before.

Q- 39:11:13 Say, [O Muhammad], “indeed, I have been commanded to worship God, being sincere to HIM in religion. And I have been commanded to be the first [among you] of Muslims.” Say, [O Muhammad] “indeed I fear, IF I SHOULD DISOBEY MY LORD, THE PUNISHMENT OF A TREMENDOUS DAY.”

That is a reminder from God to HIS messenger Muhammad, that he is responsible for his conducts and for carrying the message, and He will be judged too. There is GOD the creator, and the rest are HIS creation, and God is fair, so everyone of his creation will be judged, no exceptions.
Q- 39 :19 Then, is one who has deserved the decree of punishment?, Then, can you save one who is in the fire?.

The Quran in Arabic language was written in the time of the prophet, 1400 years ago, and not a word or a letter been changed during the years, the Quran in Indonesia is the same as the one in united state.
Q- 15:9 INDEED, IT IS WE WHO SENT DOWN THE MESSAGE [THE QURAN], AND INDEED, WE WILL BE ITS GUARDIAN.
------ God is the guardian of the Quran, it is HIS word, and 1400 years that not a word is changed is its proof that it is the holy book..
Q-39:41 Indeed we sent down to you the book for the people in truth. So whoever is guided - it is for (the benefit of) his soul; and whoever goes astray only goes astray to its detriment. And you are not a manager (i.e., authority) over them.
Q-4:79 And we have sent you, to the people as a messenger, and sufficient is GOD as witness.
Q-29:18 If you people deny the message - already nations before you have denied. And there is not upon the messenger except the duty of notification.
(God message which came by Jesus is a good example)
Q-4:80 He who obeys the messenger has obeyed GOD; but those who turn away , we have not sent you over them as a guardian.

The Quran contains many miracles, a different kind of miracles, here are some:
It was mentioned in the QUR’AN in the surah (chapter) Al QADR (97:1-5), the night of Al-Qadr, witch is the night of the coming of the QUR’AN ,and it is the 27 night in the month of RAMADAN the month of the fastening for Muslims, and the word (AL-QADR) it did come in the place were it was mentioned by (she), after a twenty six word, to be the word number (27).
We might say it came by chance. That is fine, but what we say if such a thing happen before in a larger number of words .

In the surah (chapter) Al-Kahf (18:9-25).
Q-18:9 Or you have thought that the companions of the cave.........Q-18:25 and they remained in their “CAVE” for three hundred years and exceeded by nine, that is (309 years).

The word CAVE in the Arabic writing was the word number (308) followed by the words three hundred and nine on the spot (309) .
There are many more examples like those but let us go to a different kind of miracles.
Let us look at the Surah number (98), witch translate to (THE CLEAR
EVIDENCE). It contains (98) words, and after that surah ( chapter), there are
exactly (98) verses to the end of the QUR’AN .
The word EVIDENCE came twice:
In verse # 1 witch contains (55) letters, and,
In verse # 2 witch contains (43) letters, with a totals of (98) letters.(that the Surah number!.)

Now, let us go to the holly book and see what other great miracles holds in it . The QUR’AN contains 114 (surah) chapters, and total verses of 6348, and a total words of 77878 .
The word day repeated 365 times.
The word moon repeated 27 times.
The word land repeated 13 times, and the word sea repeated 33 times.
And both totaling 46 times,
and since we know now that the land is only 29% of the surface of the earth,
So, 13/46 = 28.3%
And since we know too, that the water surface on the earth is 71%,

So, 33/46 = 71.7
I think when you add all up, sure you will find that is exactly right. And it is not a matter of guess.

I am very sorry if this post is too long. But I hope it bring answers to your questions.

God bless you.

Name: CanuckChick • Date: 06/20/07 3:13

A: Sam:

The fact is that many Jewish people in Jesus' time did not accept him as THE MESSIAH, while acknowledging him as a prophet. Most of his early disciples were Jews.

Re the requirements for a true prophet, I believe that Jesus met them admirably - his prophecies came to pass, he encouraged people to follow the true God, and he was a good person of high moral standards.

By the way, "shouting" at someone on a message board is generally considered rude. (example = -----I WANT YOUR ANSWER, ARE THOSE REQUIRMENTS RIGHT OR WRONG???.)

It is my understanding that Jesus was familiar with the Hebrew scriptures since he quoted from them often.

Re the "Lost Tomb" documentary: I don't recall the scene you mention. It was, however, important to Jesus to make his Father's name known to mankind: "And I have made your name known to them and will make it known, in order that the love with which you loved me may be in them and I in union with them." (John 17:26)
In most bible translations, the scripture at Psalms 83:18 provides God's name - "That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, You alone are the Most High over all the earth." While God has many titles, he has only one name.

So again, I ask the question: Does Muhammed meet the standards of a true prophet?

Name: Panluna • Date: 06/20/07 14:30

A: Sam,
Thank you for the information.

Name: Panluna • Date: 06/20/07 14:47

A: CanuckChick,
What is the definition for a Prophet?As far as Islam is concerned it's followers believe that Mohammed brought them the Word of God,so they view him as the Messenger.Jesus's immediate followers knew and viewed him as a human then later on as God incarnate or as the Son of God,sometimes as the son of man(which by the way is the truth) according to the evolving Christian religious viewpoints.Glorifying the leader is the stuff religions are made of.And many followers change or modify the original teachings so that they can relate to it in their own terms and live by the Word accepted by their crowd.

Name: CanuckChick • Date: 06/20/07 15:14

A: Panluna: The usual understanding of a prophet is one who, by divine inspiration, declares to the world the divine will; a person who foretells future events.

I think I get where you're coming from - all religions have something to teach us. But, due to the enormous differences in their teachings, they can't all be right, can they?

Do you not believe that there must be some universal truths?

Name: Panluna • Date: 06/20/07 16:29

A: CanuckChick,
I believe that there are Universal Truths.But we the mere mortals can seek them for ourselves or choose to follow someone elses ideas.

Name: Panluna • Date: 06/20/07 16:34

A: Sam,
Did Muhammad ever predict the future?

Name: sam • Date: 06/21/07 22:46

A: Panluna,

As for your question : "Did Muhammad ever predict the future?"
---- What Muhammad said is recorded in a book called "HADITH", and tell you the truth, I only read few lines from it, and just once in my search through the internet. so to answer your question correctly I have to go and read what the prophet said, and for sure I will do that in few days, because for more that a week , I am working hard, I want to change the wall paper in the house and use paint instead (the previous and the first owner, to save few $$ he put the wall-paper direct onto the dry-wall and used super glue!!!) so I had to take it inch by inch, that is after I brought a profisional and get his opinion. Just finished the first job two hours ago, tomorrow is another day, pray for me.
By the way my wife cannot help me, because of her asthma.

God bless you.

Name: CanuckChick • Date: 06/22/07 2:10

A: "Islam started when Muhammad, a seventh century Arab, purported to be the Messenger of God. That much we know for sure. The Qur'an, he claimed, was a series of revelations he received directly from a nameless Lord.

The inspirational experience was described by Muhammad to be like a bell, clanging in his head, causing him to shake and sweat profusely. These rather nasty experiences continued, he said, until he was able to decipher the message. Thus the Qur'an, Muslims believe, is God’s revelation to man through his final and most important prophet.

Yet only Muhammad heard these "revelations." He offered no evidence of his divine inspiration - we take the Qur'an solely on his word. The Bible, by comparison, had forty authors, all literate, who told a consistent story over the course of fifteen centuries. Muhammad, who was admittedly illiterate, acted alone in the formation of Islam and is alleged to have invented his religion over the course of twenty-two years.

Over a billion people live in nations controlled by Islamic principles. Thus to many, Muhammad was a rousing success. Yet these very same nations are among the world’s most destitute, least free, and most violent. And they are the fountain of terror, providing the money, men, motive, and means for murder. In that light, Muhammad’s legacy is considerably more tarnished.

There were no miracles to prove Muhammad’s claim of being a godly conduit. There were no healings, walking on water, parting seas, raising folks from the dead, or feeding multitudes. And there are no fulfilled prophecies, like the exacting and detailed predictions that Biblical prophets routinely made to demonstrate their divine authority. But the most troubling part about our absolute reliance on Muhammad’s testimony that he and his Qur'an were divinely inspired is that the prophet’s character was as deficient, and his life was as despicable, as anyone who has ever lived."

From "The Prophet of Doom"

Name: sam • Date: 06/22/07 2:21

A: CanuckChick,

You said:

"all religions have something to teach us. But, due to the enormous differences in their teachings, they can't all be right, can they?"

---- There are three religions, Judaism, Christianity and Islam, (Hinduism, Buddhism and many others, they are philosophies no more), and there are three Books, the Bible (Torah), the Gospel (4 Gospels, but one story, and it is mainly about Jesus), and the Quran, there are many prophets (messengers) beside Mose, Jesus and Muhammad.
The three religions and the three books and those last three messengers they left, leaving behind three religions!!!
Note: Abraham and all the other prophets were not belong to any of these religions, they never heard of them. but they believe in GOD as ONE GOD and they submitted themselves to HIS WILL. Any one can see that in the story of Abraham who wanted to sucrifice His som because of a dream.
Judaism, came from the name of the tribe, the Jews,
Christianity, came after the name of The Christ, The Arab Christians call Jesus "Al-Massih" , (The promissed MESSIAH).
Islam, Is not a name of tribe or the name of a person but is it is a word that means "SUBMITTING" (submitting to God).

Now, the question here why God sent so many messengers(1) and three books (2)?.

1- That is because after God messenger death, the people turn back to worship what they like in the way they like, and do the wrong things, the same thing happen again and again, and one messenger after the other until the comings of Muhammad (1400years ago) and with him came the message that He will be the last messenger.

2- In front of us are three books, and we are devided because of them!!!,
But GOD IS ONE and THE BOOK IS ONE, ONE BOOK WITH MANY CHAPTERS, THE FIRST CHAPTER IS THE TORAH, AND THE LAST IS THE QURAN. there is no book before Torah, and there will be no book after the Quran.

Moses by God's will did many miracles, and He delivered God's commandment (the first- You shall have no other gods before ME.)to be delivered to the world, but His followers did not follow them and kept God word hostage as if the message came to them only. Here an example, ISAIAH:
1:1 The vision of Isaiah, the son of Amoz, which he saw about Judah and Jerusalem, in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.
1:2 Give ear, O heavens, and you, O earth, to the word which the Lord has said: I have taken care of my children till they became men, but their hearts have been turned away from me.
1:3 Even the ox has knowledge of its owner, and the ass of the place where its master puts its food: but Israel has no knowledge, my people give no thought to me.
1:4 O nation full of sin, a people weighted down with crime, a generation of evil-doers, false-hearted children: they have gone away from the Lord, they have no respect for the Holy One of Israel, their hearts are turned back from him.

For this reason God sent Jesus, and He did not come to change the teaching of Abraham and Moses in worshiping God, or change the laws of God.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

From that we can see clearly that Jesus belief is the same as the others who came before Him, and He follows the same laws (God's laws -the commandments- one God- do not kill, do not...etc.), Jesus came to bring people to the right way, and He gave His message to the world to all people.

But God He sent another mesenger, WHY?
---- After Jesus death, came Paul to claim that Jesus is the son of God, then others claims that He is part of God (God with three persons), then the books which holds the word of God destroyed, and people killed or burned alive, the one teaching of God became many according to the people of the churches, and they make many different philosophies from the simple holy book. And with the loss of the many original books many true informations were lost, no one knows if Jesus was married or not, or had a son or not, thanks God for the many discoveries in this century which might bring the truth at last.

God's last message and messenger was needed to bring the truth, for those people who are lost again. with every other messenger God use to give them miracles for support, but since the miracles did not work, and God know (past, present and the future) tha the people are coming into an age with a great knowledge, so He sent with His last messenger a book full of knowledge and examples of the past , and of what the people will come to discover after time, from the creation of the universe to the creation of the human, and gave more commandments, that will be needed in the future ,plus the words in the Quran bring things like a miracles ,as example in one chapter came the number 309, and when you count the word from the beginning of that chapter until the word before it which come to 308, and 309 the number will come on the spot.. and the word day came 365 times, there are tons of similar things but this is just an example as you should know., and the Quran was the first to tell us that we are all equals, and told us to respect our parents and look after them, and to look after each others and to care for the animals and all living things, and the first in asking us to kepp his planet earth clean, as he made it first.

The previous two books written by man (Moses wrote some of the Torah) and they hold the words of God mixed with the words of man, the last book written by man, but only holds the word of God, because the words of the messenger kept in different book (and here the messenger does not read or write), and that is what makes the Quran a completely holy book.

God bless you.

Name: Panluna • Date: 06/22/07 13:19

A: Sam,
That's alot of work.They should have used wallpaper paste.I can look up the HADITH.I always wondered why some people are selected to carry out God's missions and what the requirements were.Maybe they are just destined to be the "Chosen Ones" because they believe.

Name: sam • Date: 06/22/07 14:30

A: CanickChick,

In your previous post you said this:
"The fact is that many Jewish people in Jesus' time did not accept him as THE MESSIAH, while acknowledging him as a prophet. Most of his early disciples were Jews."

That is a wrong statement., because those Jews who did not acknowledged Him as the Messiah, are those who were against Him all the way and did not acknowledge Him as a prophet too, otherwise they should respected Him as a prophet and as a messenger of God, instead of humiliate Him and try to kill Him, and those who followed Him believed that He is a prophet and the promissed Messiah .

Jew are the name of a tribe, and they are the descendent of Abraham from His son Isaac, and the Arab are a tribe and the descendent of Abraham from His son Ishmael. All the prophet came from the family of Abraham, and Abraham was not a Jew or Chritian, and Jesus was a Jews because He was born from that tribe, but He was not Christian, and Jesus disciples were Jews and not Christians, because the churches in that name were created after and developed far beyound Jesus teachings.
So, Jesus is a Jew, and He accepted and followed the teaching of Moses, and He came to fulfil and not to abolish the laws, and added to them the message of love and peace, so His follower should follow Him and and follow His religion and be a good Jews instead of creating their own religion which built on hate and war.
They distroy the books that holds God's word, and they hated and killed the Jews , and this went on for thousand year (read your history), and they killed each other (that goes for the Muslim too) But the Muslim did not kill the Jews and they do respect the religion of Moses and Jesus and it is teaching, and for they love Moses and Jesus. but the Jews hate Jesus, and the Jews with the Christians hate Muhammad.

CanuckChick, The teaching of those three religion came from God and they should be respected, but the Jews do not respect yours and you dont respect Islam. But you and many others with small mind cannot differentiate between the religion and the people .
THE RELIGION COMES FROM THE TEACHING, AND THE TEACHING ARE WRITTEN WORDS, the teaching words of the religions do not carry hates, and they do not kill.
THE PEOPLE ARE HUMAN, and the human people do sometime hate and kill, THE RELIGION AND THE TEACHING ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT THE PEOPLE DO.
God told them :
- YOU SHALL NOT TAKE THE NAME OF THE LORD YOUR GOD IN VAIN.
- YOU SHALL NOT MURDE.
- YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY.
- YOU SHALL NOT STEAL.
- YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS.

CanuckChick, when you said this: 'The Qur'an, he claimed, was a series of revelations he received directly from a nameless Lord.

---You are just an ignorant and try to spread lies,
You called ALLAH who sent the Quran a nameless Lor/God, and ignore the fact that Jesus Himself call His LORD/ GOD "ALLAH" and that is the Aramaic name for the creator & "ELI , ELI" by Matthew, & "ELOI, ELOI" by Mark, and not God or Diew as the others use.
---You forget that the Christians for thousand year went around the world with their armies and under the bunner of the cross and with the help of the churches to occupy other people lands and steal their resouces and kill inoncent people and wipe out many civilisations and slave millions of the balcks and used to attack their young women (adultery). You forget all that long history, and you brought the what is happening in the last few years, and you forget that the Horrible actions of the Christians for so long is what create all the problem of the worlds. The hundred od millions who been killed in the last two centuries are mostly Christians all killed by the Christians. where is the love that came in Jesus message?. Jesus has no part in what they do, and the religion/teaching does not teach that, but the people do.

--- You are a person who has heart filled with hates, and you are no different from Bin Laden or Bush or Blair or Benedict, the four "B's" of the 21st century who love to lie and hate and kill.

If few sick people done wrong, can we blame the billion who teach peace from their religion?. the person who does attack all is a perso who does not know, and does not respect and does not understand and do not know the terms, "Love", "fairness" or "Logic".

Shlomo brings this claim "The reason the Bible and the Ku'ran are similair is due to the fact that the writers of the Ku'ran copied and altered the verses from the Bible. "

I did bring some verses from the Quran and asked him to show me from which part of the bible those been copied, but he did not come with an answer , and run away, and that prove that he was wrong and just brought a lie, and after him you came with more lies, while you do not know what came in the Quran, and you took the place of God to judge His word and the others.
As for me I believe in Jesus and in His words, and His words are different from the others and yours which cannot be trusted to be true or reliable.

God bless you.

Name: CanuckChick • Date: 06/22/07 18:07

A: Sam:

Qur'an 80:13 "In honored books, exalted in dignity, kept pure and holy, written by the hands of scribes - honorable, pious and just, noble and righteous." (Speaking about the Jewish and Christian scriptures)

From “Prophet of Doom” - “The Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, survives to this day. It serves as irrefutable proof that nothing was changed. It was translated 275 years before the Christian era. It matches today’s Old Testament with astonishing fidelity. Then you have the Dead Sea scrolls. They were found by a Bedouin shepherd boy in the caves of Qumran. They date between 250 B.C. and 70 A.D., and were thus written during the very period Muhammad claims the Bible was corrupted. These 2,000-year-old scrolls prove that the foundation of Islam is fictitious. They are virtually indistinguishable from today’s text.
The New Testament condemns Islamic theory as well. By the time Muslims said it was corrupted, there were hundreds of translations and as many as a hundred thousand copies distributed throughout the civilized world. Do you suppose that they were all brought together and altered in identical fashion just to spite Muhammad? Or is it more likely that Allah doesn't know what he is talking about? That’s the crux of the issue. If the Bible wasn't corrupted in a massive and conspiratorial fashion, Islam can't be trusted. Correcting the Torah and Gospels, setting the record straight, returning to the true religion, were central to Muhammad’s mission. If the scripture wasn't garbled, Islam loses its justification. If the Bible wasn't massively degraded - to the point that it would be unrecognizable - the cornerstone of Islam is a lie.”

In Qur'an 51:56 Allah shares, "I have created jinn [demons] and men only to worship Me. I do not want anything from them."

Tabari I:219 "When Allah wanted to create the creation, He brought forth smoke from the water. The smoke hovered loftily over it. He called it 'heaven.' Then He dried out the water and made it earth. He split it and made it seven earths on Sunday. He created the earth upon a big fish, that being the fish mentioned in the Qur'an. By the Pen, the fish was in the water. The water was upon the back of a small rock. The rock was on the back of an angel. The angel was on a big rock. The big rock was in the wind. The fish became agitated. As a result, the earth quaked, so Allah anchored the mountains and made it stable. This is why the Qur'an says Allah made for the earth 'firmly anchored mountains, lest it shake you up.'"

Qur'an 9:5 "When the sacred forbidden months for fighting are past, fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, beleaguer them, and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."

Qur'an 5:33 "The punishment for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive after corruption, making mischief in the land [those who refuse to surrender to Islam] is murder, execution, crucifixion, the cutting off of hands and feet on opposite sides, or they should be imprisoned. That is their degradation and disgrace in this world. And a great torment of an awful doom awaits them in the hereafter."

Qur'an 5:51 "Believers, take not Jews and Christians for your friends. They are but friends and protectors to each other."

Qur'an 5:59 "Say: 'People of the Book! Do you disapprove of us for no other reason than that we believe in Allah, and the revelation that has come to us and that which came before.' Say: 'Shall I point out to you something much worse than this by the treatment it received from Allah? Those who incurred the curse of Allah and His wrath, those of whom He transformed into apes and swine."

Qur'an 4:89 "If they turn back from Islam, becoming renegades, seize them and kill them wherever you find them."

Qur'an 5:101 "Believers! Do not ask questions about things which if made plain and declared to you, may vex you, causing you trouble." Qur'an 5:102 "Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account they lost their faith and became disbelievers."

Bukhari:V4B52N46 "I heard Allah’s Apostle saying, 'The example of a Mujahid [Muslim fighter] in Allah’s Cause - and Allah knows best who really strives in His Cause - is like a person who fasts and prays without ever stopping. Allah guarantees that He will admit the Mujahid in His Cause into Paradise if he is killed, otherwise He will return him to his home safely with rewards and war booty.'"

Bukhari:V4B52N48 "The people said, 'Allah’s Apostle! Acquaint the people with the good news.' He said, 'Paradise has one hundred grades which Allah has reserved for the Mujahidin who fight in His Cause. The distance between each grade is like the distance between the Heaven and the Earth.'"

Bukhari:V4B52N196 "Allah’s Apostle said, 'I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, "None has the right to be worshipped but Allah."'"

Qur'an 8:7, "Wipe the Infidels out to the last," and Qur'an 8:39, "So fight them till all opposition ends and the only religion is Islam,"

Tabari IX:128 "When the Prophet married Aisha, she was very young and not yet ready for consummation." This is how it happened: Tabari IX:131 "My mother came to me while I was being swung on a swing between two branches and got me down. My nurse took over and wiped my face with some water and started leading me. When I was at the door she stopped so I could catch my breath. I was brought in while Muhammad was sitting on a bed in our house. My mother made me sit on his lap. The other men and women got up and left. The Prophet consummated his marriage with me in my house when I was nine years old."

Ishaq:250 "Allah raised the mountain above the Jews so that they might receive what was brought to them; and the bestial transformation occurred when Allah turned Jews into apes." [Qur'an 2:65]

Qur'an 8:7 "Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words, 'Wipe the Unbelievers out to the last.'"

Trying to reason with the man, the Jews said: Ishaq:269 "'For our part we don't see how your Qur'an recitals are arranged anything like our Torah is.' [So Muhammad who couldn't read said,] 'you know quite well that the Qur'an is from Allah. You will find it written in the Torah which you have.'" Sorry, you won't find any mention of the Qur'an in any Torah. Not in the original from 1200 B.C., not from the Septuagint from 275 B.C., not in any of the Dead Sea Scrolls, dating from 250 B.C. to 70 A.D., not in the "Torah which they had" in 625 A.D., nor in one from 2003.

Qur'an 2:4 "Whoever believes in (the Qur'an and Sunnah) which has been sent down to you (Muhammad) and in that which was sent to those before your time (the Torah and Gospel), have the assurance of the Hereafter." Although there are a thousand reasons to discard the Qur'an, this is one of the best. Allah is taking credit for prior scripture, saying that it should also be believed. Since the Torah and Qur'an are irreconcilably different, the order is impossible.

Qur'an 2:193 "And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief) and religion is only for Allah. But if they cease/desist, let there be no hostility except against infidel disbelievers." Muslims have been ordered to fight until the only religion is Islam - world conquest. And even when they have overrun the world, there shall be no safe haven for "infidel disbelievers."

According to Allah peace is bad and fighting is good. Qur'an 2:216 "Jihad (holy fighting in Allah’s Cause) is ordained for you (Muslims), though you dislike it. But it is possible that you dislike a thing which is good for you, and like a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knows, and you know not." Another translation reads: "Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you." This is an open-ended commandment to fight anyone and everyone who has not surrendered to Islam. How, pray tell, do the "Islam-is-a-peaceful-religion" folks explain..."Jihad is ordained for you?"

Qur'an 2:256 "There is no compulsion in religion." That would be tolerant if Allah didn’t abrogate the verse by proclaiming: Qur'an 4:90 "If they turn back from Islam, becoming renegades, seize them and kill them wherever you find them."

Bukhari:V9B89N258 "The Prophet said, 'A Muslim has to listen to and obey the order of his ruler whether he likes it or not.’"

Qur'an 33:50 "O Prophet! We have made lawful to you all the wives to whom you have paid dowers [with stolen property]; and those whom your hands possess out of the prisoners of war spoils whom Allah has assigned to you; and daughters of your paternal uncles and aunts, and daughters of your maternal uncles and aunts, who migrated with you; and any believing woman who dedicates her soul to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes her; this is a privilege for you only, and not for the rest of the Believers; We know what We have appointed for them as to their wives and the captives whom they possess; in order that there should be no difficulty for you and that you should be free from blame."

Qur'an 33:51 "You may put off whom you please, and you may take to you whomever you desire. You may defer any of them you please, and you may have whomever you desire; there is no blame on you if you invite one who you had set aside. It is no sin. They should all be pleased with whatever you give them. Allah knows what is in your heart." Speaking of sex, Allah said: "You may have whomever you desire. There is no blame." This is blatantly devoid of morality.

Qur'an 33:59 "Prophet! Tell your wives and daughters and all Muslim women to draw cloaks and veils all over their bodies (screening themselves completely except for one or two eyes to see the way). That will be better. They will not be annoyed and molested."

Qur'an 33:60 "Truly, if the Hypocrites, those in whose hearts is a disease, those who stir up sedition, the agitators in the City, do not desist, We shall urge you (Muhammad) to go against them and set you over them. Then they will not be able to stay as your neighbor for any length of time. They shall have a curse on them. Whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain without mercy - a fierce slaughter - murdered, a horrible murdering. (Such was) the practice (approved) of Allah among those who lived before. No change wilt thou find in the practice of Allah."

Qur'an 33:64 "Verily Allah has cursed the Unbelievers [whom he defines as Christians in the 5th surah] and has prepared for them a Blazing Fire to dwell in forever. No protector will they find, nor savior. That Day their faces will be turned upside down in the Fire. They will say: 'Woe to us! We should have obeyed Allah and obeyed the Messenger.' 'Our Lord! Give them double torment and curse them with a very great Curse!'"

Bukhari:V4B54N516 "The Prophet said, 'If anyone rouses from sleep and performs ablution, he should wash his nose by putting water in it and then blow it out thrice because Satan has stayed in the upper part of his nose all night.'"

Qur'an 8:7 "Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words, 'Wipe the disbelieving infidels out to the last." Qur'an 8:39 "So fight them until all opposition to Islam ends and all are obedient to Allah."

Ishaq:618 "Kill the disbelievers wherever you find them. Lie in wait for them, ambush them, overwhelm them. I have ordered you to kill them." Tabari VIII:141 "The battle cry of Muhammad’s Companions was, 'Kill! Kill! Kill!'" Bukhari:V4B52N196 "Allah’s Apostle said, 'I have been ordered to fight people until they say, "None has the right to be worshipped but Allah."'"

A peaceful religion of love and choice? In Sam’s words: “Use the logic!”

What proof does Mohammed offer that these writings were inspired by God? Where are the miracles, the fulfilled prophecies, and the examples of superior moral behaviour one would expect from a man sent by God?

I would invite anyone who is interested in a further examination of the religion of Islam to visit the website - http://www.prophetofdoom.net/Prophet_of-_Doom_01_Would_You_Believe.Islam

You- would do well, my friend, to become acquainted with the true God - one who does not demand submission, but kindly invites us to come to know him and his purposes - one who wants only to be loved.

CC

Name: sam • Date: 06/23/07 23:21

A: CanuckChick,

From the time the message and the messenger came to bring back people to worship God alone and to go back to follow His commandment, the Jews and the Christians kept trying their best to fight them, they created a lot of false stories about the prophet (as it happen to Jesus at His time), and they try to create lies of many sorts about the message (the Quran), the book that hold only the words of God and no one else.
The proof to all that in front of me by YOUR WORDS. Here you brought one verse from the Quran:
Qur'an 80:13 "In honored books, exalted in dignity, kept pure and holy, written by the hands of "scribes - honorable***", pious and just, noble and righteous." (Speaking about the Jewish and Christian scriptures).
*** that is what is written in Arabic, {Be-eiden safart'e} = {By-hands of messengers}, and the messengeger here are those who carried the words of the Quran (the angels) and not the Jewish and Christian scribes

First , you bring this verse as a support, that the Quran Honored the scriptures (the words of God which been given to Moses and Jesus that came in theTorah, and the Gospels, but not the words of Paul and everyone else, Jesus and Moses are God's prophets the other they are not), and of course it is true, that All Muslims believe in all God's messengers and they do love them.

Second, You believe that this verse is true, while it came in the Quran, but it is strange that you do not believe that the Quran is true, I wonder why?, can you explain.

Third, SWITCHING THE TRUTH.
My question, Did you read only this verse from chapter 80, or you read all what came before it, the other 12 verses?, An honest person, do not pick a line and then create false statement about it, dishonesty does not bring the truth, and that is a fact. Here are the verses 3/4, 7 & 11-17 which explain everything:

3- But what would make you perceive, [O MUHAMMAD], that perhaps he might be purified
4- or be reminde and the rememberance would benefit him?
(the message is to the prophet about the way the people, accepting or not accepting God messeage).

7- And not upon you [MUHAMMAD], if he will not be purified.

11- No! Indeed, they [these verses of the Quran and not the Bible] are a reminder;
(God's word are just a reminder, and it is up to the person to follow, and not to Muhammad)

12- So whoever wills may remember it.
13- [it is recorded] in honored sheets [that is the Quran and not other book],
14- esaulted and purified [this is the Quran],
15- [carried] by the hands of Messenger-angels. [the Quran brought by the angels, the Torah came by Moses and the Gospel came by Jesus]
16- noble and dutiful.
( it was about the prophet Muhammad when it started, and now it talk about the message, the Quran Itself, and not about the Bible.)

17- DESTROYED [CURSED] IS MAN, HOW DISBELIEVING IS HE.
(here, this verse talks about those who do not believe in the word of God in the Quran, and those are the Jews and the Christians and the Roman and Persians etc.)
..................-.....................
Yo-u- said:
1- "From “Prophet of Doom” ,
---And you are wrong, as you been wrong when you switched the truth before. You are the unbeliever that God mentioned in that chapter.

2- “The Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, survives to this day. It serves as irrefutable proof that nothing was changed."
------ I agree with you, nothing changed, the words of Moses and Jesus are the word of God and they represent the truth, but the word of the others who told unreal stories or gave wrong informations cannot be trusted even when they are put by man in the same book with the word of God , THE TRUTH AND THE FALSE WILL STAY THE SAME AND THEY WILL NOT CHANGE BE THE TIME.
There are more than 2000 incorrect stories in the Bible and the Gospels (do not forget that man burned many Gospels and twisted the truth)
"the Bible full of contradictions and errors" By the Bishop.

CanuckChick,
-Do you believe thAT the evil took Jesus to a high mountain to show Him the kingdoms of the world and their glory?
-Or do you believe that the stars will fall on earth and after Jesus will come on the clouds?
-Or do youbelieve that the earth was created before the sun and the moon and the stars?
-Or do you believe that the grass and some life created on earth before the sun was created?
................-......................
An-d- after you brought this verse:
Qur'an 8:7, "Wipe the Infidels out to the last," and Qur'an 8:39, "So fight them till all opposition ends and the only religion is Islam,"

Here I give you AN EXAMPLE: If a person live in a great kingdom on earth, under the rules of a good great king [i.e England etc.], and he enjoy everything from the land of the kingdom [i.e work, food, drink, care etc.], but he chose to follow and be loyal to another king, and try to spread lies in the kingdom against his king and the people of the kingdom that he live in. Is that person can be described
as a SPY, and he will be killed according to the law . while this person was not created by the king.
All people accept this law, and you too, you will be happy to see this law used for an outsider/insider who does harm to your country while he live in it and enjoy its benefits.

GOD CREATED THE UNIVERSE, AND ITS HIS KINGDOM, AND GOD CREATED THE EARTH AND ITS HIS LAND, THEN CREATED EVERYTHING ON IT, THEN CREATED MAN ON IT, AND WHAT IS ON THIS LAND HE GAVE TO THIS MAN TO ENJOY IT.
Q- 80:24-32
- "Then let mankind look at his food - How WE poured down water in torrents- then WE broke open the earth, splitting [whith sprouts], - and caused to grow within it grain - and grapes and herbage- and olive and palm trees- and gardens of dence shrubbery- and fruit and grass- AS ENJOYMENT for you and your livestock."

While everything man received and even his soul was FROM GOD, AND GOD KINGDOM, He turned against HIM and worshiped gods from their own making, from stone and wood (the Romans, the Greeks, the Persians, the Egyptians, and many others), and others created many gods (the Hindu) and others worshiped man as god (Buddhist and others) .
GOD sent to His people on earth Messengers and messages to show them the truth about HIM, but as usual, THE TRUTH ALWAYS TWISTED [as you done], and man created what he likes, and God sent His last message in the Quran , and told everything that His people should know, and told them that they are His people and they live on His land, and asked them to woship Him only, and this was the last message, and if they do not come back to worship him only, then they are not worthy to have the life that been given to them by HIM.

Those who live in God' kingdom, but are loyal to others who are not of benefit to them are trators in the sight of God, and His law here is similar to our laws on earth , so if we do not complain about our laws to kill the trators, how can we complain about the law of God to kill those trators to Him?.

You said, “Prophet of Doom”, is that means, that His God is the "God of doom"?

---- Many people agree on killing other people!!!. for example:
Many Chritians agree to kill the Jews in spain then in east Europe and after in Germany. (of course not today).
Many Christians agree to kill Christians, catholic and protestant, or both against the others.
Many Christians agree to kill Muslims and others and for thousand years, (their history is full with their stories)
And many Christians supported a war that built on lies and they are happy to see Arabs and Muslim killed by the hundred thousands, it was planed for that purpose and the Muslim knew all the Christian governments tricks and lies during their long history.
The Christians killed the American Indians because they do not worship their god!!!, but if they became Christian then they are saved!!!.
all that happen ignoring the commandments of God, "You shall not commit murder"

YOUR DOUBLE STANDARD. It is OK for them to kill even for no reason at all, but they question God when HE asked to bring the message to His enemies, and to warn them, and after that if they do not come back to Him, then they should be fought and and killed, God Has the right to do whatever He wishes in His kingdom.

Who are we to judge God. We should remember what will happen in the day before His judgment to all mankind. Let us read what God said, and in the chapter 80 which you brought as an example:

Q- 80:33-42
" - But when there comes the deafening blast- On the DAY a man will flee from his brother- and his mother and his father- and his wife and children- for every man, that day, will be a matter adequate for him.- [some] faces, that DAY, will be bright- laughing, rejoicing at good news.- and [other] faces, that DAY, will have upon them dust.- blackness will cover them.- Those are the disbeliever, the wicked ones."

Then God said:
Q- 99:6-8
"THAT DAY [JUDGMENT DAY], The people will depart seperated, to be shown [the result of] their deeds.
So whoever does an atom's weight of good will see it, - and whoever does an atom's weight of evil will see it."
( it is God fair judgment)

------ God the only Judge at that day, and in His court all mankind will be judged even His messengers, and in His court there is no rich or poor, no black and white, no king and slave and there is no bribery.

Q- 2:255 "Who is it that can INTERCEDE with Him except by His permission? He knows what is before them and what will be after them, and they encompass not a thing of His knowledge except for what He wills."
Q- 74:48/49 " So there will not benefit them the intercession of any intercessors.- Then what is [the matter] with them that they are, from the reminder, turning away."
(they are turning away from God and His message, the Quran, and not any other book)

CanuckChick, Here are some verses about the people who denied God messages:

Q- 29:18 And if you [people] DENY [the message] , already nations before you have denied. And there is not upon the messenger except [the duty of] clear notification.

Q-3:184 Then if they DENY you, [O Muhammad] So were messenger before you, who brought clear proofs and written ordinances and the enlightening Scripture.
(that happen to every messenger , some follow and others deny)

CanuckChick, please read this part, chapter 23, verses 44-51 and here what it say in 52:
Q- 23:52 "And indeed this, your religion, IS ONE RELIGION, AND I AM YOUR LORD, SO FEAR ME."

---I did mention similar thing in my previous post , even I did not know that came in the Quran. Here what I said:
"But GOD IS ONE and THE BOOK IS ONE, ONE BOOK WITH MANY CHAPTERS, THE FIRST CHAPTER IS THE TORAH, AND THE LAST IS THE QURAN. there is no book before Torah, and there will be no book after the Quran."

As for the Hadith, I hope I can give the answer after I read about it, and I know that PANLUNA is waiting too, but she knows that i am working hard these days.

God bless you.

Name: Panluna • Date: 06/24/07 14:35

A: Is there LOGIC in religion?All of humankind's religions started centuries ago when people had no scientific method to explain the workings of this world.Our ancesters viewed all aspects of life and death differently than most people currently believe.And yet religion provides faith and guidance to the followers.Is the TRUTH taught in religion able to stand up to the scrutiny that scientific knowledge and education challenges?

Name: Panluna • Date: 06/24/07 14:37

A: Can science measure Spirit?

Name: CanuckChick • Date: 06/25/07 15:21

A: Sam: I notice that you haven't answered my twice-repeated questions -
"What proof does Mohammed offer that these writings were inspired by God? Where are the miracles, the fulfilled prophecies, and the examples of superior moral behaviour one would expect from a man sent by God?"

From the things I have read, I see that the religion of Islam is one of intolerance and hatred, as as evidenced by many of its own scriptures, and the inexcusable behaviour of its followers.

Many good people, such as yourself, have been misled, and are not aware of the truth. This is evidenced by the fact that you said "---- What Muhammad said is recorded in a book called "HADITH", and tell you the truth, I only read few lines from it, and just once in my search through the internet."

Does not your own Koran tell you that you must follow the writings of Muhammed? How do you know what your prophet said if you have never read his writings?

I see that the religion of Islam is detrimental to the good of mankind, as is evidenced by the many atrocities that continue to be perpetrated in Allah's name. Surely, such a belief system does not have God's blessing. The nations that embrace Islam continue to be the world's poorest, least free, and most violent, to the detriment of its own people.

My hope for you, Sam, is that you open your eyes to the truth, and seek the God who loves mankind, and desires a relationship with every one of us.

"When wisdom enters into your heart and knowledge itself becomes pleasant to your very soul, thinking ability itself will keep guard over you, discernment itself will safeguard you, to deliver you from the bad way, from the man speaking perverse things, from those leaving the paths of uprightness to walk in the ways of darkness, from those who are rejoicing in doing bad, who are joyful in the perverse things of badness, those whose paths are crooked and who are devious in their general course, to deliver you from the strange woman, from the foreign woman who had made her own sayings smooth, who is leaving the confidential frient of her youth and who has forgotten the very covenant of her God." (Proverbs 2:10-17)

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Name: CanuckChick • Date: 06/25/07 16:29

A: Panluna, you asked: "Is there LOGIC in religion?All of humankind's religions started centuries ago when people had no scientific method to explain the workings of this world.Our ancesters viewed all aspects of life and death differently than most people currently believe.And yet religion provides faith and guidance to the followers.Is the TRUTH taught in religion able to stand up to the scrutiny that scientific knowledge and education challenges?"

In my view, in order to be a viable religion, it must answer the following questions:

What caused the creation of the universe?

How did we get here?

What does the creator want from us?

What is mankind's future?

The bible holds the answer to all of these questions - written in such a way that people of any era might understand its precepts.

What caused the creation? "Raise your eyes high up and see. Who has created these things? It is the One who is bringing forth the army of them even by number, all of whom he calls even by name (the stars). Due to the abudance of DYNAMIC ENERGY, he also being vigorous in power, not one of them is missing." (Isaiah 40:26) Referring to "The Big Bang"?

How did we get here? "And God proceeded to create the man in his image, in God's image he created him, male and female he created them. Further, God blessed them and God said to them: ""Be fruitful and become many and FILL THE EARTH and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth.""" (Gen 1:27, 28) The scientific community agrees that mankind originated in a central location and radiated out from there to occupy the other lands of the earth.

What does God want from us? "This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ." (John 17:3)

What is mankind's future? "With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: ""Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.""" (Rev 21:3,4)

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Name: Panluna • Date: 06/25/07 16:36

A: CanuckChick,
The Revelation verse comes true when we pass from this world into......?
depending on one's faith.

Name: CanuckChick • Date: 06/25/07 17:40

A: From my read, the Revelation verse comes true after Armageddon.

God's original purpose was for an earth filled with humans who honoured his creation, obeyed his laws of their own free will, and loved him with their whole heart.

I've never read anything that shows him to have had a change of heart - although it seems a long time coming to us - I believe his original purpose will be fulfilled.

In the meantime, he kindly invites us to become acquainted with him, his requirements, and his future plan for humankind.

Name: Panluna • Date: 06/25/07 22:53

A: CanuckChick,
Do you know that the term Anti-Christ was first coined by an 19th century minister whose last name was Darby?---There is no real Anti-Christ at all.I think it was used as a scare tactic.Also 666 has to do with the numerical value of Nero's full name.He was the madly insane Emperor who played his fiddle while Rome burned.There was a program about the Anti-Christ on the History Channel yesterday.
When it comes to Dieties and worship it is best when it's a path freely chosen and followed by the devotee.It makes for a happier heart and a better relationship to Spirit.

Name: sam • Date: 06/26/07 0:12

A: CanuckChick,

You said the followin:
1- "What caused the creation?.
--- Those who do not believe in God they have their own theories, but the people who believe in God knows and understand that the Creator created all. This believe in not new but was known before Abraham.

2- "Raise your eyes high up and see?
--- From the time of Adam until few hundred years ago, people when they raise their eyes to the sky they see the sun, the moon and the stars. they did not know the difference between the the stars and the planets, when your books were written, and they do not know that the stars are like our sun. the following is a proof to what I am saying:

Mat- 24:29 &30 ....the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, ....and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

First, the sun & the moon: it says here that they shall see, and that people will see all what been mentioned before!!! . I WONDER CAN ANYONE WHO LIVE IN 21st CENTURY BELIEVE IN WHAT CAME HERE?. People today know these facts
a- the light of the moon, is no more than the reflection to the sun' light. and if the sun darkened, people will not see the moon.
b- If the sun darkened, there will be no people to see the sun and the moon, they will be dead. CanuchChick you should no this fact in you are an educated person.

Second, the STARS (ALL THE STARS) SHALL FALL FROM HEAVEN!!!!!, and of course they will fall on earth!!!!.
let us forget about ALL the stars, and imagine the SUN (A STAR) FALL ON EARTH, CanuckChic, what you think will happen???, and if you do not know ask Panluna, because I am sure that she knows, or go to a school and ask the little children, some might have sun burn, and know that the sun if did come close to earth everything on earth will evaporates.
All those who done big MIRACLES as Moses and Jesus, they knew that the stars are small object of light (like candles), and if they did all the miracles and they recieve the word of God, at list they should know the facts about the stars, but they do not !.
Third, the san of man (not the son of God) coming in the cloud !!!!.
CanuckChick, the small ojects (stars) as known to those people who wrote the books, came to be known after that, that they are similars to our sun. first they estimated them by millions, and after centuries the estimates grow to billions of stars, and thanks to Mr. Hubble, who find that there are galaxies out there in the universe and they are by the billions, and each of them have dillions of STARS, and the estimate today is 30 BILLION TRILLION STARS, and still they are short in knowing everything in that universe.

Canuch Chick, WHAT YOU THINK WILL HAPPEN IF ALL THOSE STARS FALL ON EARTH ?, you think there will be clouds on earth?, or you think there will be people still alive to see the son of man, or the san of God coming on the clouds?
What was written is just a myth, and cannot be accepted by science or logic or common sence, and the ones who teaches those things are blind so they cannot see the truth, and the followers who believe in such thing are blinded by their faith. Jesus did not tell this story or many others like it, but He said:
Mat- 15:14 Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, BOTH WILL FALL INTO A PIT.
- Of course that came after this:
Mat-15:11 It is not what enters into the mouth that defiles the man, but what proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man.
- What came above from the mouth of those people that is what defiles them, THEY DID SAY LIES ABOUT JESUS, and about things that they do not know.
..................................

Who has created these things? It is the One who is bringing forth the army of them even by number, all of whom he calls even by name (the stars). Due to the abudance of DYNAMIC ENERGY, he also being vigorous in power, not one of them is missing." (Isaiah 40:26) Referring to "The Big Bang"?.

--- What you mentioned above for sure is a big bang, a big bang in your head, and it is like the big bang which will come from the stars when hit the earth.

Here what it says in (Isaiah 40:26): "Let your eyes be lifted up on high, and see: who has made these? (thereis no big bang here) He who sends out their numbered army (and there is no big bang here): who has knowledge of all their names (and for sure no big bang here): by whose great strength (no big bang), because he is strong in power (I can't see a big bang here), all of them are in their places." ( but I do see here what the others will see when they left up their eyes THAT ALL OF THEM ARE IN THEIR PLACES ( NOTHING MOVES).

CanuchChick, Do you know what is the BIG BANG theory is?, It is the explosion which happen 17+ billion years ago, and it tooks billions of years before shaping our universe as we know it today. I am sure you do not this fact, because if you do, you will not bring thing from an old book and call what came in it a BIG BANG.

You ask me many questions, but there is no use to answer you back , since you keep throwing lies and attacking the religion that you do not know the truth about it, and in the matter of fact, you do not know much about what is true and what is false in your religion, and you cannot differentiate between the words of Jesus and Moses and the words of the others who wrotes lies and who do not know.

When the Quran mention something before 1400 years and it come to be the fact today, that prove it to be a holy book. here some:

Q-29:20 (O MUHAMMAD), say to them“go travel through the earth and observe HOW THE CREATION BEGAN.

Q- 41:53 We will show them our signs in the horizons and within themselves until it becomes clear to them that it is the truth.
(He is the truth). But is it not sufficient concerning your LORD that he is, over all things, a witness.

Q-21:30 Have those who disbelieved not considered that THE HEAVEN AND EARTH WERE A JOINED ENTITY, AND WE SEPARATED THEM, and made from water every living things, then will they not believe?.

-Is that the BIG BANG theory?.

Q-51:47 And THE HEAVEN we constructed with strength, and indeed, WE ARE (ITS) EXPANDER.

-Is that the EXPANDING UNIVERSE theory?. They are not, "all of them are in their places, as in Isaiah 40:26.

Q-21:33 And it is HE who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all heavenly bodies, in an orbit are swimming.
---as you see here , all the bodies (stars & planet & metors etc.) all moving in an orbit, They are not, "all of them are in their places, as in Isaiah 40:26.

Q- 38:88 AND YOU WILL SURELY KNOW THE TRUTH OF ITS INFORMATION AFTER TIME.
------ AFTER MORE THAN THOUSAND YEARS SUCH INFORMATION (AND MANY OTHERS) BECAME KNOWN TO MAN, THAT IS THE MIRACLE OF THE QURAN, THE MIRACLE OF GIVING TRUE SCIENTIFIC KNOWLEDGE WHEN PEOPLE LIVED IN THE DARK.

Q- 24:40 Or [they are] like darknesses withen an unfathomable sea which is covered by WAVES, UPON WHICH ARE WAVES, over which are clouds- darknesses, some of them upon others. When one puts out his hand [therein], he can hardly see it. AND HE TO WHOM GOD HAS NOT GRANTED LIGHT - FOR HIM THERE IS NO LIGHT.

----- No one knows, or will believe that there are waves deep in the seas and oceans, and many wondered about it, when they read it in the Quran, but while reading a scientific discovery few months ago I remember what I read about it in the Quran. At the same time when NASA lanched man to reach the moon , the U.S. Goverment lanched a research submarine (Benjamin Franklin) to move with the golf stream, deep in the Atlantic, and the scientists cannot use its power except in emergencies, and the scientists recorded every movements, and they were surprised by going up and down like if they are on the surface, and sometimes the waves were strong, hundred feets up and down, then it come a wave that they felt they might hit the bottom, and they forced to use the submarine power.

People before 1400 years have no idea about such a thing and they do not know how dark in the deep sea because they can dive down few metters only.
This came true now, and God's example here give a full and clear picture of those, WHOM GOD HAS NOT GRANTED LIGHT - FOR HIM THERE IS NO LIGHT. I hope one day you will see the light .

CanuckChick, if you did not understand the difference between what came in the Quran about the big bang and the expanding universe and the orbit of the earth and the moon and the sun and all stars, and what came in the bible, as that the stars will fall on earth, then for sure you are short in the logic and science and even in common sence, but anyhow I am going to bring you what some scientists believe about the scientific informations in the Quran:

1) Dr. T. V. N. Persaud is Professor of Anatomy, Professor of Pediatrics and Child Health, and Professor of Obstetrics, Gynecology, and Reproductive Sciences at the University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada. There, he was the Chairman of the Department of Anatomy for 16 years. He is well-known in his field. He is the author or editor of 22 textbooks and has published over 180 scientific papers. In 1991, he received the most distinguished award presented in the field of anatomy in Canada, the J.C.B. Grant Award from the Canadian Association of Anatomists. Professor Persaud has included some Quranic verses and sayings of the Prophet Muhammad in some of his books - and presented these verses and sayings of the Prophet Muhammad at several conferences. When he was asked about the scientific miracles in the Quran which he has researched, he stated the following:

“...Muhammad .. could not read, didn’t know to write. - You have someone illiterate making profound pronouncements - amazingly accurate about scientific nature. [so] many accuracies - I have no difficulty in my mind that this is a divine inspiration or revelation which led him to these statements.”
See him making these statments [click] , (from the scientific Quran site)

2) Dr. Joe Leigh Simpson is the Chairman of the Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Professor of Obstetrics and Gynecology, and Professor of Molecular and Human Genetics at the Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, Texas, USA. Formerly, he was Professor of Ob-Gyn and the Chairman of the Department of Ob-Gyn at the University of Tennessee, Memphis, Tennessee, USA. He was also the President of the American Fertility Society. He has received many awards, including the Association of Professors of Obstetrics and Gynecology Public Recognition Award in 1992. Professor Simpson studied the following two sayings of the Prophet Muhammad :

{In every one of you, all components of your creation are collected together in your mother’s womb by forty days...}
1{If forty-two nights have passed over the embryo, God sends an angel to it, who shapes it and creates its hearing, vision, skin, flesh, and bones....}
2 He studied these two sayings of the Prophet Muhammad extensively, noting that the first forty days constitute a clearly distinguishable stage of embryo-genesis. He was particularly impressed by the absolute precision and accuracy of those sayings of the Prophet Muhammad . Then, during one conference, he gave the following opinion:

“So that the two hadeeths (the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad ) that have been noted provide us with a specific time table for the main embryological development before forty days. Again, the point has been made, I think, repeatedly by other speakers this morning: these hadeeths could not have been obtained on the basis of the scientific knowledge that was available [at] the time of their writing . . . . It follows, I think, that not only there is no conflict between genetics and religion but, in fact, religion can guide science by adding revelation to some of the traditional scientific approaches, that there exist statements in the Quran shown centuries later to be valid, which support knowledge in the Quran having been derived from God.”
See the video of his comments and the others at "the scientific Quran" site.

3) Dr. E. Marshall Johnson is Professor Emeritus of Anatomy and Developmental Biology at Thomas Jefferson University, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA. There, for 22 years he was Professor of Anatomy, the Chairman of the Department of Anatomy, and the Director of the Daniel Baugh Institute. He was also the President of the Teratology Society. He has authored more than 200 publications. In 1981, during the Seventh Medical Conference in Dammam, Saudi Arabia, Professor Johnson said in the presentation of his research paper:

[summary] "The Quran describes not only the development of external form, but emphasizes also the internal stages, the stages inside the embryo, of its creation and development, emphasizing major events recognized by contemporary science."

Also he said: “As a scientist, I can only deal with things which I can specifically see. I can understand embryology and developmental biology. I can understand the words that are translated to me from the Quran. As I gave the example before, if I were to transpose myself into that era, knowing what I knew today and describing things, I could not describe the things which were described. I see no evidence for the fact to refute the concept that this individual, Muhammad, had to be developing this information from some place. So I see nothing here in conflict with the concept that divine intervention was involved in what he was able to write.”
4) Dr. William W. Hay is a well-known marine scientist. He is Professor of Geological Sciences at the University of Colorado, Boulder, Colorado, USA. He was formerly the Dean of the Rosenstiel School of Marine and Atmospheric Science at the University of Miami, Miami, Florida, USA. After a discussion with Professor Hay about the Quran’s mention of recently discovered facts on seas, he said:

“I find it very interesting that this sort of information is in the ancient scriptures of the Holy Quran, and I have no way of knowing where they would come from, but I think it is extremely interesting that they are there and that this work is going on to discover it, the meaning of some of the passages.”
And when he was asked about the source of the Quran, he replied: “Well, I would think it must be the divine being.”

5) Dr. Gerald C. Goeringer is Course Director and Associate Professor of Medical Embryology at the Department of Cell Biology, School of Medicine, Georgetown University, Washington, DC, USA. During the Eighth Saudi Medical Conference in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, Professor Goeringer stated the following in the presentation of his research paper:

“In a relatively few aayahs (Quranic verses) is contained a rather comprehensive description of human development from the time of commingling of the gametes through organogenesis. No such distinct and complete record of human development, such as classification, terminology, and description, existed previously. In most, if not all, instances, this description antedates by many centuries the recording of the various stages of human embryonic and fetal development recorded in the traditional scientific literature."
View the RealPlayer video of this comment

6) Dr. Yoshihide Kozai is Professor Emeritus at Tokyo University, Hongo, Tokyo, Japan, and was the Director of the National Astronomical Observatory, Mitaka, Tokyo, Japan. He said:

“I am very much impressed by finding true astronomical facts in [the] Quran, and for us the modern astronomers have been studying very small pieces of the universe. We’ve concentrated our efforts for understanding of [a] very small part. Because by using telescopes, we can see only very few parts [of] the sky without thinking [about the] whole universe. So, by reading [the] Quran and by answering to the questions, I think I can find my future way for investigation of the universe.”

7) Professor Tejatat Tejasen is the Chairman of the Department of Anatomy at Chiang Mai University, Chiang Mai, Thailand. Previously, he was the Dean of the Faculty of Medicine at the same university. During the Eighth Saudi Medical Conference in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, Professor Tejasen stood up and said:

“During the last three years, I became interested in the Quran . . . . From my study and what I have learned from this conference, I believe that everything that has been recorded in the Quran fourteen hundred years ago must be the truth, that can be proved by the scientific means. Since the Prophet Muhammad could neither read nor write, Muhammad must be a messenger who relayed this truth, which was revealed to him as an enlightenment by the one who is eligible [as the] creator. This creator must be God. Therefore, I think this is the time to say La ilaha illa Allah, there is no god to worship except Allah (God), Muhammadur rasoolu Allah, Muhammad is Messenger (Prophet) of Allah (God). Lastly, I must congratulate for the excellent and highly successful arrangement for this conference . . . . I have gained not only from the scientific point of view and religious point of view but also the great chance of meeting many well-known scientists and making many new friends among the participants. The most precious thing of all that I have gained by coming to this place is La ilaha illa Allah, Muhammadur rasoolu Allah, and to have become a Muslim.”

Those people understand what they read, and for sure they ask questions, and when they give their opinions it come from their fields of expertees, and they do not lie like the one who to do not know, because there is no need for that, and they live in this century, and they are free.
The churches or the mosques or the temples cannot hold hostage a free thinker scientists.

God bless you.

Name: Panluna • Date: 06/26/07 2:27

A: Hi Nate,
I read French.Who were you referring to?

Name: CanuckChick • Date: 06/26/07 12:02

A: Panluna: The bible also mentions the antichrist a few times:

"Young children, it is the last hour, and, just as you have heard that antichrist is coming, even now there have come to be many antichrists; from which fact we gain the knowledge that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of our sort; for if they had been of our sort, they would have remained with us. But they went out that it might be shown up that not all are of our sort." (1 John 2:18-20)

"Who is the liar if it is not the one that denies that Jesus is the Christ? This the the antichrist, the one that denies the Father and the Son". (1 John 2:22)

"You gain the knowledge of the inspired expression from God by this: Every inspired expression that confesses Jesus Christ as having come in the flesh originates with God, but every inspired expression that does not confess Jesus does not originate with God. Furthermore, this is the antichrist's (Inspired expression) which you have heard was coming, and now it is already in the world." (1John 4:2,3)

"For many deceivers have gone forth into the world, persons not confessing Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist." (2 John 7)

You said: "When it comes to Dieties and worship it is best when it's a path freely chosen and followed by the devotee.It makes for a happier heart and a better relationship to Spirit."

I agree.

And Nate.....If Allah speaks French, you are in deep sh*t, my man.

CC

Name: CanuckChick • Date: 06/26/07 12:41

A: Islamic “Science” -----

Bukhari: V4B55N546: "Allah's Apostle said, ‘Gabriel has just now told me of the answer. If a man has sexual intercourse with his wife and gets discharge first, the child will resemble him, and if the woman gets discharge first, the child will resemble her.'"

Tabari I:258 "Allah sent Gabriel to the earth to bring Him some clay. The earth said, ‘I take refuge in Allah against you mutilating me. Then He sent the angel of death. He took some soil from the earth and made a mixture. He did not take it from a single place but took red, white, and black soil. Therefore, the children of Adam came out different."

Tabari I:293 "When Allah cast Adam down from Paradise, Adam's feet were on earth while his head was in heaven. He became too familiar with the angels and they were in awe of him so much so that they complained to Allah in their various prayers. Allah, therefore, lowered Adam. But Adam missed what he used to hear from the angels and felt lonely. He complained to Allah and was sent to Mecca. On the way every place where he set foot became a village, and the interval between his steps became a desert until he reached Mecca."

Bukhari:V4B54N482 "Allah's Apostle said, ‘The Hell Fire complained to its Lord saying, "O my Lord! My different parts are eating each other up." So, He allowed it to take two breaths, one in winter, the other in summer. This is the reason for the severe heat and bitter cold you find in weather.'"

Tabari I:233 "When the Messenger was asked about that, he replied, ‘When Allah was done with His creation He created two suns from the light of His Throne. His foreknowledge told Him that He would efface one and change it to a moon; so the moon is smaller in size."

Tabari I:236 "Allah created two cities out in space, each with ten thousand gates, each 6 kilometers distant from the other. By Allah, were those people not so many and so noisy, all the inhabitants of this world would hear the loud crash made by the sun falling when it rises and when it sets. Gabriel took me to them during my Night Journey from the Sacred Mosque [the Ka'aba] to the Farthest Mosque [the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem]. I told the people of these cities to worship Allah but they refused to listen to me."

Tabari I:332 "The sun and the moon were in eclipse for seven days and nights."

Qur'an 67:3 "We created seven heavens, one above the other. Muhammad, can you see any fault in Ar-Rahman's creation? Look again: Can you see any rifts or fissures? Then look again and yet again. Your gaze turns back dazed and tired. We have adorned the lowest skies with lamps, and We have made them missiles to drive away the devils and against the stone Satans, and for them We have prepared the doom of Hell and the penalty of torment in the most intense Blazing Fire."

Tabari I:219 "When Allah wanted to create the creation, He brought forth smoke from the water. The smoke hovered loftily over it. He called it ‘heaven.' Then He dried out the water and made it earth. He split it and made it seven earths on Sunday. He created the earth upon a big fish, that being the fish mentioned in the Qur'an. By the Pen, the fish was in the water. The water was upon the back of a small rock. The rock was on the back of an angel. The angel was on a big rock. The big rock was in the wind. The fish became agitated. As a result, the earth quaked, so Allah anchored the mountains and made it stable. This is why the Qur'an says, ‘Allah made for the earth firmly anchored mountains, lest it shake you up.'

Name: Panluna • Date: 06/26/07 13:47

A: CanuckChick,
John could have been refering to Nero.

Name: sam • Date: 06/26/07 16:16

A: Nate,

Panluna said, -"I read French.Who were you referring to?"
And Sam will say, -"I read French too. Who were you referring to?"

Dear Panluna, Last lesson for me in French was in grade 9 , that was 55 years ago, but still I can read and understand most of what I read, but I cannot write, to answer Nat.

You said : Vous êtes une personne bizarre. Vous ne pouvez pas parler du sujet mais êtes seulement capable d'écrire des idées ridicules que personne soigne de. Vous devriez prendre probablement des médicaments pour votre folie.

Sam believes that what you mentioned above is " seulement" description "pour vous". Vous etes une personne bizarre aussi.

In the National Geographic forums, I had a good discussions with Joe Trusty, a well educated engineer. and here a sample from our discussion:

Joe - Dear Mr. “Logic,” [THE LOGIC - THE TRUTH] are the names that I use in that forum. (01-04-07)

- Thank you for sharing your years of wisdom with us. I do have an English translation of the Qur’an by an Islamic corporation, which I have read extensively, but perhaps you can help me understand it better.
I apologize for my slight deception in proposing the questions when I saw the “Not about Religion” topic.
- If you note from my other post on this individual forum and topic, I say that I cannot find a “democratic tradition” from the Jewish or Christian versions of Scripture.
- True, many of the “Christian” kingdoms from Europe acted in sinful, evil ways and expanded their empires mostly for greed, but some thought they were expanding the influence and rule of Jesus through his church.
- I hope to carefully investigate everything from the beginning. It seems good also to me to write an orderly account of it. I look forward to speaking with you and learning from each other in the future. Salam.

That is a small sample , and we been exchanging our thoughts for more than a year. We both respected each other opinion, and we became friends. And my discussions with you Panluna was the same and I respect you for that. You can see the difference when you read CanickChick and Nat works.

(01-07-07)
Joe - I am glad, too, that we are conversing in a civilized manner about many topics. You actually are closer to my father's age. I began my engineering studies in 1991 and, after several detours, completed them in December 1997.

THE LOGIC - Dear Joe Trusty,
- It is a pleasure to share thoughts with you, thank you. I never stop in my search for the truth. Islam, Christianity or other religion are not my aims, and I do not care much about any of them, because my search from the time I started was toward finding answers to two questions: "There is God or not?", "Are those holy books the messages from God?".

Joe - Thank you, also. I do treasure this discussion and exchange of ideas as well, even if our discussion tires others in this forum. It may take some time to address all the interesting items that you raise, but I will try to approach them all eventually.
..................-........................

Fro-m- the following you can see that the French language is used too, but in a different way, in a good way.
From Joe - Bonjour, Monsieur , (01-17-07)
Merci beaucoup, aussi, mon ami! Vous allez bien en parler et écrirer l’anglais, le français, et l’arabique. Malhereusement, j’ais oublié plus mon français. J’ais étudié pour deux ans en école secondaire, et j’ais hâbité à la maison français pour ma premier année au université. Possiblement, allez-vous aider moi avec le français, aussi? Merci, mon ami!.

And the following is my answer [THE LOGIC] to "mon ami" Joe:
---Dear Joe,

From the first day in school until grade nine,we study both French and Arabic side by side, I still remember the book of algebra, geometri, science naturelle, histoire and the composition work etc., but that was ages ago (1952/3), years passed without using it. I can read and understand some but not all the word, but to speak and write that is out of the question.

Joe wrotes,
Merci beaucoup, aussi, mon ami! Vous allez bien en parler et écrirer l’anglais, le français, et l’arabique. Malhereusement, j’ais oublié plus mon français. J’ais étudié pour deux ans en école secondaire, et j’ais hâbité à la maison français pour ma premier année au université. Possiblement, allez-vous aider moi avec le français, aussi? Merci, mon ami!

My poor translation!!!.
Thank you very much, also, my friend, you are good in speakink and writing the English, the French and the Arabic. (Malhereusement: "lasouk el-haz" that is in Arabic, and I will say it is in English "the bad luck", please correct me if i am wrong.) oublie? more my French. I studied for two year in secondary school, and i lived/stayed/accommodations in the French house in my first year at the univesity. but to help you in French that is impossible, mon ami, my friend, [sadiqy ], thak you. mon ami Joe, how i can help you in French while I need your help in English, and in computer, i might come to you when i have problems?!.

God bless you all.

Name: CanuckChick • Date: 06/26/07 17:37

A: Sam said:

"And my discussions with you Panluna was the same and I respect you for that. You can see the difference when you read CanickChick and Nat works."

"But you and many others with small mind cannot differentiate between the religion and the people ."

"---You are just an ignorant and try to spread lies,"

"--- You are a person who has heart filled with hates, and you are no different from Bin Laden or Bush or Blair or Benedict, the four "B's" of the 21st century who love to lie and hate and kill."

"I did bring some verses from the Quran and asked him to show me from which part of the bible those been copied, but he did not come with an answer , and run away, and that prove that he was wrong and just brought a lie, and after him you came with more lies, while you do not know what came in the Quran, and you took the place of God to judge His word and the others."

"then for sure you are short in the logic and science and even in common sence,"

Funny, but I don't remember posting anything to Sam in the way of a personal insult.

Typical behaviour for someone who feels they're losing an argument.

Some posters here spent hours defending the bible against Sam's criticisms, but as soon as the validity of the Koran was questioned, a friendly debate degenerated into a personal attack against those who do not believe in Sam's religion.

Sam, I don't believe there is anything to be gained from continuing this discussion with you. Let's just agree to disagree, and call it a day.

Peace,
CC

Name: JMD • Date: 06/27/07 7:50

A: CanuckChick: "Let's just agree to disagree, and call it a day."

Ah, sweet words of wisdom. If you're upsetting someone enough, where they personally attack, well, CC you must be doing something right! :b

Here's some info as regards Sufism "a path to human wholeness" [from an 'excellent' book, called "The Inner West: An Introduction to the Hidden Wisdom of the West", by Jay Kinney, [2004]*:

"Sufism has taken form over the last fourteen hundred years within the matrix of the Qur'anic revelation, the most recent of the major sacred traditions. ... [it] has been a vital spiritual and historical impulse. ... integrates the Eastern and Western, the impersonal and the personal dimensions of Spirit. ... recognizes the importance of deep contemplation and meditative awareness and looks beyond appearances to the essential oneness of Being. ... recognizes the importance of a deeply personal relationship with the Divine as well as love and practical service to our fellow human beings and the natural world."

"Sufism is a path emphasizing individual presence, human affection, esthetic beauty, practicality, and Divine love. It is in harmony with human nature and does not oppose spiritual attainment to individual, social, or family life. ...
The Sufi model of enlightenment is not the reclusive sage who has cut his ties with the world or the enlightened master elevated and served by a cult of followers. Sufis do not regard spirituality as a profession or specialization separate from life. The Sufi is likely to be married and have a family and is generally self-supporting through a socially useful occupation. He or she would not accumulate personal power or wealth through spiritual activities but would exemplify the qualities of servanthood and self-effacement."

"A Sufi is a handful of dust passed through a sieve, then moistened with a few drops of water. Stepped on, he neither bruises nor muddles the foot of the passer-by."
__

*Other chapters in this book include:
"The Star-Gods of Neoplatonism"
"The Quest for Spiritual Freedom: The Gnostic Worldview"
"Kabbalah and Jewish Mysticism: An Overview"
"The Mysticism of Christian Teaching"
"The Quest of the Magus: A Summary of the Western Magical Tradition"
"Sophia: Goddess of Wisdom"
"Explaining Wicca"
"The Hidden Sages and The Knights Templar"
"The Apocalyptic Steiner"

JM:D

"The road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the road has gone
And I must follow, if I can."

Name: CanuckChick • Date: 06/27/07 13:16

A: "Ah, sweet words of wisdom. If you're upsetting someone enough, where they personally attack, well, CC you must be doing something right! :b"
Well, that's me....just a delicate flower of womanhood.

Thanks for the info on Sufism. I take it that's your belief. I'll read up on it so we can fight. (Just kidding!)

Cheers!

Name: JMD • Date: 06/27/07 17:03

A: oh, no, preciousss, I'm a Gnostic, through and through. The 'spark' is lit within at all times. You could say I'm a Pagan-Jewish-Christian Gnostic, but I have many enemies, (though fortunately, friends, too!), though, sadly I've had some in 'high places' , who've played mind games, and I 'think' a witch or maybe more than one? has been messin' with a bit of 'black magic?' Ah ha, you can not fool, the 'master', JMD, as I'm stronger than them, as I come in the name of Jesus Christ, and Mary Magdalene, and James the Just, and last but not least, John the Baptist/Baptizer. I come from the 'Highest God', from Sophia as well... and, Yahweh and I have come to an 'agreement' - though he 'knows' he is not the highest God.

Here's my main thread, though I've got some other good postings elsewhere around this 'Den of Thieves'. done a bit of 'trolling' on 'loser message boards.' the 'harem gals' are likely still about kissin' his arse, etc. and some people hate me of course, but that's life. After all, I must be careful to not 'cast my pearls in front of 'too many' swine.'

So go within and have your own trip - I'm certainly enjoyin' mine. Envious perhaps? Even if some want to laugh and call me crazy! Some called Jesus a 'lunatic' so hey! I'm in great company! :D

http://www.jesusfamilytomb.com/forum/Was-_is_Jesus_a_Gnostic_-15-467-0-0/

Tweedl-e- dee and Tweedle dum... having fun? I sure am!

JMDisciple of Christ

Name: JMD • Date: 06/28/07 22:25

A: Go like lambs to a wolf-pack

Set an example for all the world to see

To listen to you
or to listen to me
is not to hear us
but to hear the Higher God
who sent us both

Enter the kingdom
Become a child
Become a child
Enter the kingdom

The somebodies will be nobodies
and
the nobodies will be somebodies

The rich get more
The poor lose everything

When you start a fire
you want it to burn

Many are called, few are chosen

The blind lead the blind right into the ditch

To destroy the house of the powerful
you must defeat the arms that protect it

You buried your heart where you hid your treasure

Do not look backward
when you grasp the plow
or grasp the kingdom within

The mighty
will be brought down
The lowly
will be raised up

Split the wood
I am beside you
Lift the stone
I am among you

Whoever finds herself is superior to the world :D

A fisherman [God] drew his full net from the sea
Among the many small fish was a single large one
He grabbed hold of it and threw back all the rest

JM:D the Big Fish

Name: JMD • Date: 06/30/07 10:28

A: June 27, 2007
"The big fish hang out in God's Lake"
"The God's River roars out of this northern Manitoba lake in a series of whitewater rapids that few adventurers would tackle straight on.... 'Running through those rapids, I was hanging onto the boat pretty good. But the first trout I caught was a 'monster.'... few waters in North America produce as many diverse 'trophy' fish. Last week, the list of 'master angler' fish caught this season by God's Lake Lodge guests included 19 northern pike weighing at least 18 pounds... God's Lake has the space and habitat to produce an endless supply of wall-'eyes' "

..... goes swimming away off into her magnificent kingdom within. ahhh such bliss....

JMD

Name: sam • Date: 06/30/07 14:35

A: CanuckChick,

When you chose few Hadith, for the purpose of showing that Islam is a wrong religion, you did not know the facts.

Few things you should know about the Islam faith:
1- The Muslims follows God only, and not Muhammad. Muhammad is a messenger who carried the message like Moses and Jesus.
2- The Quran is the word of God, and hold all the truth, and that is the holy book of Muslims, But Muhammad words are Muhammad words, and it is the same with all the prophets, some of Jesus words are His words and not God word, for example:
John- 2:3/4 When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to Him”they have no wine”. And Jesus said to Her “Woman. WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH US?.
- We can see here a drinking party, and maybe they are all drunk, and God has nothing to do with the shortage of wine. Also you should know that the Jews created a lot of false stories about Jesus, as they did later on when the prophet Muhammad. The Muslims call those false hadith “THE ISRAELLIATE” (the Christians and the Jews never stop creating false stories about the prophet and Islam even after 14 centuries!!!), some of those sayings came at the time of Muhammad, and when He heard about them and mentioned them as “BUDA’A”, that means “CREATED FALSE STORIES”, He asked His followers to burn those writings if they were written, and told them to be wise, and not to accept things that been said before judging it logically, and that the Quran is their way for the truth
3- The Hadith, and that is what people claim that the prophet said. The books that contain the Hadith are not holy books {SOME OF THE GOSPELS ARE HADITH TOO, AS WHAT Paul said in his letters or what the others created from stories}, and can be questioned because they were written after many years from the death of the prophet, and by many people, and the Muslims scholars classify the hadith:

THE CLASSIFICATION OF HADITH

According to the reference to a particular authority
According to the links in the isnad
According to the number of reporters in each stage of the isnad
According to the manner in which the hadith is reported
According to the nature of the text and isnad
According to a hidden defect found in the isnad or text of a hadith
According to the reliability and memory of the reporters

According to that they did categorize the hadith to three categories:
A- the true hadith, and those which comes as revelation, or direct from those who were with Him. For example, here is one:
- {The believers, in their love, mercy, and kindness to one another are like a body: if any part of it is ill, the whole body shares its sleeplessness and fever.}1

- {The most perfect of the believers in faith are the best of them in morals. And the best among them are those who are best to their wives.}2
- {None of you believes (completely) until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself.}3
- {The merciful are shown mercy by the All-Merciful. Show mercy to those on earth, and God will show mercy to you.}4
- {Smiling at your brother is charity...}5
- {A good word is charity.}6
- {Whoever believes in God and the Last Day (the Day of Judgment) should do good to his neighbor.}7
- {God does not judge you according to your appearance and your wealth, but He looks at your hearts and looks into your deeds.}8
- {Pay the worker his wage before his sweat dries.}9
- {A man walking along a path felt very thirsty. Reaching a well, he descended into it, drank his fill, and came up. Then he saw a dog with its tongue hanging out, trying to lick up mud to quench its thirst. The man said, “This dog is feeling the same thirst that I felt.” So he went down into the well again, filled his shoe with water, and gave the dog a drink. So, God thanked him and forgave his sins.} The Prophet was asked, “Messenger of God, are we rewarded for kindness towards animals?” He said: {There is a reward for kindness to every living animal or human.}10

And here another:

Khalid ibn al Walîd narrated the following hadith:

A Bedouin came one day to the Prophet and said to him, 'O, Messenger of Allah I've come to ask you a few questions about the affairs of this Life and the Here After.'
- Ask what you wish.

Q: I'd like to be the most learned of men.
A: Fear Allah, and you will be the most learned of men.
Q: I wish to be the richest man in the world.
A: Be contented, and you will be the richest man in the world.
Q: I'd like to be the most just man.
A: Desire for others what you desire for yourself, and you will be the most just of men.
Q: I want to be the best of men.
A: Do good to others and you will be the best of men.
Q: I'd like to be raised on the Day of Judgement in the light.
A: Don't wrong yourself or any other creature, and you will be raised on the Day of Judgement in the light.
Q: I'd like Allah to bestow His mercy on me.A: If you have mercy on yourself and others, Allah will grant you mercy on the Day of Judgement.
Q: I'd like to be the most honorable man.
A: If you do not complain to any fellow creature, you will be the most honorable of men.
Q: I'd like to be the strongest of men.
A: If you put your trust in Allah, you will be the strongest of men.
Q: What are the best deeds in the eyes of Allah?
A: Gentle manners, modesty and patience.
...................-.........................

B--- The hadith that can be accepted because it was supported by many trusted people. An example: from Malik's book , "Number 7.3.16:

- "Yahya (1)related to me from Malik (2)from Yahya ibn Said (3) that Said ibn al-Musayyab (4) said, "Abu Bakr as-Siddiq used to pray witr when he wished to go to bed, and Umar ibn al-Khattab used to pray witr at the end of the night. As for me, I pray witr when I go to bed."
Here the story came through 4 persons.

C- The hadith wich are doubted to be the words of the prophet, (many tried to make false stories and claim them to the prophet), here what I read:
1- “Difficulties appear to arise when the transmission and preservation of the hadith are considered. As John L. Esposito states, "by the ninth century, the number of traditions had mushroomed into the hundreds of thousands. They included pious fabrications by those who believed that their practices were in conformity with Islam and forgeries by factions involved in political and theological disputes.”
Of corse JOHN did not mention the early FORGERIES which was done by the opponents of the other religions!.
2- “Never would a human being whom GOD blessed with the scripture and prophethood say to the people, "Idolize me beside GOD." Instead, (he would say), "Devote yourselves absolutely to your Lord alone," according to the scripture you preach and the teachings you learn. [3:79]”
3- “But it is God's mercy that He wants us to follow only what He specified in His revelations, and use our common sense, knowledge and wisdom for the rest of the details of life.”
4- “God condemns the hadith by name in the Quran, and informs us that it is a blasphemous fabrication (45:6-7). He says that the Quran is one consistent source since it's His Word. There is no contradiction in it. If it were from other than God, as hadith books are, they would have found in it numerous contradictions (4:82): {Then do they not reflect upon the QURAN? If it had been from any other than God, THEY WOULD HAVE FOUND WITHIN IT MUCH CONTRADICTION.}
5- “HADITH CAN BE USEFUL FOR HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE, BUT THEY SHOULD NOT BE USED FOR ESTABLISHING RELIGIOUS PRACTICES.”
CanuckChick, I hope you understand that the Quran is the Holy book of Islam, But the Hadith is only a historical stories, like the stories that came in the Bible [Sarah & Hagar, or the wrong creation], or in the Gospels [the devil & Jesus, or the fallen stars].
Also you should know that you are not the only one who try to show a wrong picture about Islam and the prophet, there are countless people who try those tricks for 1400 years, and hopping it might work. Hopping that you learn something, so before saying anything you should learn and understand the facts, and not bring thing that you had no knowledge about.

God bless you.

Name: JMD • Date: 06/30/07 14:58

A: "Michigan: Sexist Imam Speaks to Students
Islamic traditions do not conceive of women generally having the same rights and privileges in society as do men. This attitude was put on display at Western Michigan University recently when Imam Siraj Wahhaj of Masjid Al-Taqwa mosque in Brooklyn, N.Y., gave a talk on how women should be restricted to only certain roles.
The Kalamozoo Gazette reports:

"In Islam, we try not to have a free intermingling of the sexes. Everything about women is attractive to men," Wahhaj said. "That is why they should cover their heads and bodies." Because, you know, men can't be expected or obligated to exercise a bit of self-control and restraint around an attractive women. If men are tempted, it's all the woman's fault.

Wahhaj also believes that women should be recognized for what they do in the home as wives and mothers. "Islam allows women to work outside the home," said Wahhaj, "but they must never sacrifice their primary function of wife and mother for a secondary one." Because, you know, men can't be expected to have a role in the home in raising their children into decent human beings. That responsibility lies entirely with the women.

Women in administrative roles in typically male professions makes sense, Wahhaj said, but "would you want to work with or depend on being saved by a woman firefighter?" Actually, I wouldn't mind working with or depending on being saved by a woman firefighter who is qualified for the job and good at what she does. It is practically the very definition of sexism and bigotry for Wahhaj to disparage a woman in a particular career merely because she is a woman and regardless of what qualifications or skills she may have.

Even more disturbing than the rebarbative sexism of this religious popinjay is the fact that no one appears to have objected or dissented from his statements. Perhaps there is information that the report doesn't contain, but out of the "400 students, faculty and friends of the Muslim Students Association," could the reporter really only find people who agreed with Wahhaj's bigotry? That's pathetic."

Very pathetic.... I'll stick with Jesus Christ - least he believes in the equality of women. No man rules me, and I wear no veil. I am free !

JMD

Name: sam • Date: 07/01/07 22:13

A: JMD,

You brought the followings:
"Michigan: Sexist Imam Speaks to Students
A- Islamic traditions do not conceive of women generally having the same rights and privileges in society as do men.
---First, you mentioned an 'imam', and you forget that there are thousands of them, as there are thousands of bishops and rabbis, and everyone of them represents his own thoughts or views, and some they go far behind the teaching of the religion, (if you want examples, i will be glad to bring them to you).
Imam, bishop, and rabbi they represents themselves. The religion is presented by the word of the book only. That what i tried to bring in my last post, but maybe you did not understand it.
--- Second, can you tell me when the woman started to have the same rights and privileges in society as do men in the Christians world?, and did she recieve all her rights today in those countries?
Third, the imam words are not in any holy book, but let us hear what PAUL said, and his words in the holy book:
1 Timothy 2:11/12 - A woman MUST QUITLY RECEIVE INSTRUCTION WITH ENTIRE SUBMISSIVENESS. BUT I DO NOT ALLOW A WOMAN TO TEACH OR EXERCISE AUTHORITY OVER A MAN, BUT TO REMAIN QUIET.!!!.
--- fourth, In islam laws (and i am not talking about the imam laws), the woman is equal to man, and both man and woman are subject to the laws of God and has to follow them for their own sake.
--- Fifth, you should not jump to a conclusion and judge things before knowing THE TRUTH.

JMD, Your attitude was put on display here too. You are not seeking the truth, but trying your best to being what you like to paint a wrong picture about Islam, forgetting that the only important thing in Islam teaching is the Quran.

B- "In Islam, we try not to have a free intermingling of the sexes.
--- The stories about men who leave their wife and children for another woman, or the high rate of divorces, or the crime against woman, and the abuse of woman, and the teenage girld who became mother before marriage all in the rise, all happen because of intermingling of both sexes and the way the woman dress or act. Those things were hardly heard before hundred years or so and they do not hardly happen among the Muslim society, or the Jewish or the Christian AMISH, which I regards them as the best and perfect honest family group in todays societies.

God bless you.

Name: Ladyhawk • Date: 07/01/07 23:23

A: Sam,

Your point is well taken with regard to there being many opinions—not necessarily those of the establishment—expressed by imams, bishops and rabbis, though in the case of the veil and women’s highest calling it would appear that Islam supports the imam in principle.

You are also quite correct in noting that St. Paul expressed many of the same opinions, and that they are included in the Bible. As you may know, St. Paul’s attitudes are being reconsidered these days. There are still a number of Judeo-Christian enclaves in the world (like the Amish and some more orthodox Jewish and Christian groups) who observe these strictures. But they are not observed across the board as they are in Islam and they have not been for probably 150 years.

I don’t know all the historical reasons why this is; but the bottom line is that Christianity made a choice at some point to stay relevant to the times—and times in the west have moved on. In the Protestant churches, this began with the Reformation in the early 1500s. In the Catholic Church, the winds of change began to blow in 1963. Now, ancient laws with regard to things like what we eat, how we dress, and whether men have the right to dominate their wives and daughters are no longer regarded as tenets of the faith.

Yes, a great deal of social upheaval results from changes like these, and from the modern conventions allowing men and women to mingle in the workplace and in school and otherwise. But this is the way of the west, in places like Europe and America where not everyone is bound to religious law—and where, specifically, both common and religious law do not decree that women are to live and serve at the pleasure of men. Further, there are no laws that hold men accountable for their wives and families to the extent that it appears may be so in the Middle East.

It’s a different world; and if JMD sounds angry, she probably is. There are very few western women who aspire to being a man’s property, and some of them will fight to the death to make sure it never happens to any of their sisters under a merciful God. That many of their sisters seem acquiescent isn’t really the point; the point is that if men should not be enslaved, women shouldn’t be either.

She is simply expressing outrage.

Name: JMD • Date: 07/02/07 1:09

A: Oh, yes, many have problems with women 'daring' to express anger. And if we dare stand alone, as an individual, with a mind of our own, they really hate that... Even if 'mind games' have been played with them, even when they confronted a 'sorcerer' (nickname 'Judas') who just said 'it was just a game!' and laughed it off.... I guess we just don't have any right to get angry? Like hell we don't !

Besides, I don't follow Timothy and all the other 'hateful' of women passages! I follow Jesus and his parables/sayings, for the most part.

Well; some women like being ruled by others, and some like standing alone, a person in their own right. I'll take being a person in my own right.
And if I'm hated for it, so be it!

What about honor killings? A woman is raped, and is 'blamed' for it. Gee ain't that a great way to show respect for women. :\

JMD

Name: sam • Date: 07/04/07 19:29

A: Dear Ladyhawk,

I will bring some facts that most people, Muslims or Christians do not know.

A- in the case of the veil.
----The veil is a "BIDA'A", and that means a "FALSE CREATED IDEA". Nothing came in the Quran about it, and not by the words of the prophet. In Muhammad time the woman goes to work * beside the man dressed properly as the woman of that time and as what the mothers and wifes and daughters of all the prophets and as the mother and sisters of Jesus.
* Muhammad made several journey to Syria in the service of a wealthy widow named Khadijah. So faithfully did he transact the widow’s business, and so excellent was the report of his behavior, which she received from her old servant who had accompanied him, that she soon afterwards married her young agent; and the marriage proved a very happy one, though she was fifteen years older than he was. Throughout the twenty-six years of their life together he remained devoted to her; and after her death, he always mentioned her with the greatest love and reverence. This marriage gave him rank among the notables of Makkah, while his conduct earned for him the surname Al-Amin, the “trustworthy.”
[Muhammad worked side by side with his wife, traveling, dealing with people and making business deal for 26 years, and she never covered her face with a veil.]

The veil came as the result of the occupation of the Muslim countries by the armies of the barbaric Mongolians {Chingiz Khan-Tolui, Timorids}, and by the Europian crusaders between the 11 & 13th centuries, who were raping the young women, and mostly the beautiful ones *, and that what brought the idea of the veil "hijab" to the Muslims to protect their women and girls. And when the veil is used for many centuries and the occupation to their land never ended [the French, the English, the Dutch etc.] that is what kept the veil idea alive. The veil in many Muslim contries like Syria, Algeria, Turkey and many others starts to disappear in the early 20th century, but we see it clear that it started to come back in the last few years, and the reason is the coming back of the westerners forces and their attack on Muslims.

* First Crusade: By J. Arthur McFall.
"The Crusaders' committed horrible atrocities, RAPING, murdering and plundering Jews, Muslims and other Christians en route to Palestine".
"Christians, who--contrary to the exaggerated reports heard in Europe--were tolerated within the Islamic world as fellow "People of the Book,"

That is an example written by a Christian, and many others wrote the same, you can read the real history .

B- In the case of, "Islam supports the imam in principle."
---- Here you make BIG MISTAKE, and a WRONG statement. ISLAM AND MUSLIM ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS, Islam is the faith and Muslim are the people. and so Christianity and Chritian. If a Christian commited a murder, the faith is not to be blamed for a person actions, I thought you should know this fact !. Even I mentioned several times that the Islam is the faith, and the Quran is the only book that holds the laws, but still you cannot understand the simple thing!.
Islam does not supports the imam or Khaliph or the Muslims if they created something as ""BIDA'A", "FALSE CREATED IDEA", But Islam as law is against it, and there are few created BIDA'A by those Muslim who do not fully understand the book, and one of them some Muslims using the mettal rod to inflict pain on ones body (the Shiat sect), and that against Islam, (In the Philippine some Christians use the same methods even some nails themselves to a cross- I watched that on CNN news this year) and I am sure this not from Jesus teachings.

C- You are also quite correct in noting that St. Paul expressed many of the same opinions, and that they are included in the Bible.
---- I am trying to bring the truth only, I do not support the wrong Muslims or the wrong Christians, and I try to be fair and use the LOGIC.
The Christians created more BIDA'A, than the Muslims, and they are following their "imams" the popes, the bishops, etc., for an example, the son of God is one created by Paul (like the one that you agree with me above), and Jesus is a God was created by the Roman Emperor, and carrying or kissing the cross and the many other things in the Roman catholic churches that we see are not except a creation of the Christians and did not come from the teaching of Jesus.

C- As you may know, St. Paul’s attitudes are being reconsidered these days.
---- After 2000 years they reconsider the Teaching of Paul and the Churches, WOW.

D- I don’t know all the historical reasons why this is; but the bottom line is that Christianity made a choice at some point to stay relevant to the times—and times in the west have moved on.
---- The answer for that and the rest of your questions will come in my next post.

She is simply expressing outrage.
---- And I would like to join with her in expressing my outrage about the way that woman is treated by man in the past and even to some degree today. IN THE SIGHT OF GOD, MAN AND WOMAN ARE EQUAL, AND THEY SHOULD HAVE THE SAME RIGHTS. I do not agree with the Muslims or the Christian or the Jews ar anyone else when they do not honour the woman right an give her the full respect. The woman is our mother first of all, then she is our sister and daughter, and only the stupid who do not know this fact.

God bless you.

Name: Ladyhawk • Date: 07/06/07 3:02

A: Dear Sam,

Thank you for this very interesting post, and apologies if I expressed myself in a way that seemed offensive to you. My intent was not to denigrate Islam, only to try to lay a cultural bridge between you and JMD, who, being a very outspoken feminist, had expressed some views that I thought required a certain amount of translation.

What I don’t know about Islam is considerable, and herein lies the problem for too many people. Just as too many westerners look at the veil and the threats and militancy of Islam and jump to conclusions, so do a lot of people look at the west assume it has knowingly and salaciously turned from God and embraced a godless lifestyle. The problem is, we don’t understand each other, and to make it worse, our spokespeople (on both sides) are inclined to be fundamentalist in principle and so give the world a very narrow view of things. This has historically caused a great deal of trouble, and certainly our times are a fine example of that.

I had never heard the history of the veil before now, and I must tell you, I found it most enlightening. In the west, there is a literary tradition wherein women and girls sometimes dress as boys so as not to be vulnerable to rape, but we find it more often in stories than in history books, which may account for our inability to imagine that it might be a good thing.

But you say many Muslims don’t know this history either. How is that? I wonder if it’s the same reason so many Christians (even now) believe Mary Magdalene was a whore. I saw a conversation on line this morning in which several people stated this as a fact; it seems to me it has been 7-10 years since the Vatican acknowledged that they lied about that, but still there are church-going people who haven’t got the word. We believe our pastors and imams at our peril these days, don’t we? I wonder, is it a sin to lead people in faith and ritual that are not based in truth? I hope so and I hope God has something to say to these people when they arrive on his doorstep.

Of course I know the individual Muslim or Christan cannot be blamed for the actions of the larger Church; no one is more irate than I am that Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson and James Dobson (in company with George Bush) think they can tell the world what Christianity is when they’re dead wrong. So what I want you to understand is that when I said “Islam supports the imam in principle” I wasn’t saying I thought the whole religion was based on those wrong things he said, but that nobody else stood up (saving you, Sam, and thank you) and said otherwise!! The same is true of Christians, but WHY is this? Why don’t our leaders--the very highest and most learned--stand up and say what’s what? The more I watch these faithless fools, the more I admire Jesus for his understatement and his difficult choices.

Wars are being fought over these misconceptions, large and small. I had lunch today with a lady I don’t know too well. A nice lady, who very earnestly told me that “It’s true! All Muslims want to kill us!” I said I didn’t think they did, and I told her I thought we had some cultural differences that caused a lot of misunderstanding. And I told her about you, and what you had told me about the veil, and she was, of course, very surprised, because she thought, like most westerners, that the veil was something forced on women by men in the Middle-east, and it never occurred to her that there might be another reason for it. So she’s getting herself all worked up over these blood-crazed Muslim hordes coming to kill us all (our president has done a real good job of frightening people), and it never occurred to her that Middle-easterners (particularly in Iraq) might have the same fears of us.

And yes, it is pathetic that it took 2000 years for people to step back and look at the Bible and say wait a minute…what Jesus says and what Paul says are not the same! And why is that? Why do we follow false teachings? Because we all of us—Christians and Muslims—look to our pastors, our imams, our teachers to instruct us, with the idea that what is holy can only be explained by those trained to do so. I bought this line for many, many years until I began to see how many false prophets there really were. We can’t look to them to make these things right—they have agendas that have nothing to do with the welfare of the people. So I guess it falls to us, small people, to try to explain to each other who and what we are, and to fashion friendships that bleed hate out of the world.

I’m told I’m idealistic in this regard, but it’s what we’re told to do, in all our holy books. So it seems that we should at least try. And we should also remember that people who are very angry, like JMD, very likely have reasons for that, and that they are not personal with regard to us; they come of anguish long-endured. Unless it’s somebody very young like (sorry if I'm wrong, but I don't think so) Nate or Sadinoel, who are just hell-bent on being snarky and disruptive, there is usually a great deal of pain behind an angry voice, and we need to be sensitive and to give people enough room for that.

Again, apologies to you. Cultural ignorance can only be erased by studying and learning, and I have yet a bit to do.

Name: sam • Date: 07/06/07 22:37

A: CanuckChick,

You claim the followings:

A- Typical behaviour for someone who feels they're “LOSING” an argument.
------ How can you say that!, while my argument is supported by the right knowledge, science , logic and common sense, but yours are supported by the wrong knowledge and lacking the logic, and what you claim here is a witness to that.

B- Some posters here spent hours defending the bible against Sam's criticisms,
------- Claiming that I am criticizing the Bible is wrong, for me and for all the Muslims, the words of Moses and Jesus in the Bible are the words of God, and it is respected as the words of the Quran, But the words of Sarah & Hagar , and Paul & John, can be criticized when it brings wrong knowledge, and I can call that DEFENDING ABRAHAM, MOSES AND JESUS AGAINST THE ONE WHO CREATED LIES AGAINST THEM.
C- but as soon as the validity of the Koran was questioned, a friendly debate degenerated into a personal attack against those who do not believe in Sam's religion.
------First you do not know the difference between the Quran and the Hadith, while you try to talk about them!!!.
-----Second, telling you the truth and showing you where you are wrong, and that you do not acquire the right knowledge, is not attack by any mean, but that is all the creation of your mind, because you had that feeling towards me in the first place.

D-Sam, I don't believe there is anything to be gained from continuing this discussion with you. Let's just agree to disagree, and call it a day.
------- CanuckChick, AND THAT IS A “Typical behaviour for someone who feels they're “LOSING” an argument.
...............................-......................

CanuckChick,
In- your post of 06-26-07 “ . Islamic “Science” you brought this verse from the Qurana:
Qur'an 67:3 We created seven heavens, one above the other. Muhammad, can you see any fault in Ar-Rahman's creation? Look again: Can you see any rifts or fissures? Then look again and yet again. Your gaze turns back dazed and tired. We have adorned the lowest skies with lamps, and We have made them missiles to drive away the devils and against the stone Satans, and for them We have prepared the doom of Hell and the penalty of torment in the most intense Blazing Fire.

Also the Quran mentioned this:
Quran 21:104 The day when WE WILL FOLD THE HEAVEN LIKE THE FOLDING OF WRITTEN SHEET FOR THE RECORDS. As WE began the first creation, WE will repeat it. That is a promise binding upon US. In deed WE WILL DO IT.

-------- Here the Quran discribe the heaven {universe} as a SHEET FOR THE RECORDS, and I brought this scientific works to prove that the knowledge of the Quran came from the God who created the universe, and that been taken from the works that presented by NASA. I hope you know something about NASA, those are the one who put man on the MOON.

Geometry of the Universe
“The density of the universe also determines its geometry. If the density of the universe exceeds the critical density, then the geometry of space is closed and positively curved like the surface of a sphere. This implies that initially parallel photon paths converge slowly, eventually cross, and return back to their starting point (if the universe lasts long enough). If the density of the universe is less than the critical density, then the geometry of space is open, negatively curved like the surface of a saddle. If the density of the universe exactly equals the critical density, then the geometry of the universe is flat like a sheet of paper. Thus, there is a direct link between the geometry of the universe and its fate.
The simplest version of the inflationary theory, an extension of the Big Bang theory, predicts that the density of the universe is very close to the critical density, and that the geometry of THE UNIVERSE IS FLAT, LIKE A SHEET OF PAPER.
That is the result confirmed by the WMAP science.
Measurements from WMAP
The WMAP spacecraft can measure the basic parameters of the Big Bang theory including the geometry of the universe. If the universe were open, the brightest microwave background fluctuations (or spots ) would be about half a degree across. If the universe were flat, the spots would be about 1 degree across. While if the universe were closed, the brightest spots would be about 1.5 degrees across.
Recent measurements (c. 2001) by a number of ground-based and balloon-based experiments, including MAT/TOCO, Boomerang, Maxima, and DASI, have shown that the brightest spots are about 1 degree across. Thus the universe was known to be flat to within about 15% accuracy prior to the WMAP results. WMAP has confirmed this result with very high accuracy and precision. We now know that the universe is flat with only a 2% margin of error.

I did not bring these information from NASA just to support what came in the Quran , but to widen your scientific knowledge in case you miss reading them, and to show you that fallen stars on earth is no more than a false story.

As you see CanuckChick, I do not support the Quran by just empty and fancy words but by real science from the 21st century, so why you cannot do the same when you bring what you call scientific Bible?.

God bless you.

Name: sam • Date: 07/07/07 0:26

A: Dear Ladyhawk,

Tomorrow is 07-07-07, and it is my wife birhtday, so i did take her for a buffet lunch today, and after we went for a walk in the park on the shore of lake Ontario, and on her birhtday 07-07, I am taking her to Niagara Falls to spend good time.

Thank you for your words. I feel that we are both dealing with very important subject in a logical way, and away from any influence, because the truth will come only by been first honest and then free.

We live in the 21st century, but it seems to me that there are many who still live in the mentality of the dark ages, and among them many of the leaders (politically & spiritually) and that is where all the world problems comes.

During the time when I was writing in the NG post I came upon some who thought that I am a very religious person and I did explain that I did not have any knowledge about the Islam religion or any other religion until the time of the discovery of the Gospel of Judas, and watching the decomentary and reading the many opinions, and that is when I bought the Quran and the New Testament, then I read the Bible from the inrternet, and so about Buddhism and Hinduism etc. and all that came when I did have the time, and when I retired.

I think that all those who read my posts here, they make their opinion about me. As a very religious Muslim, or a man with a long beard, and a long dress etc., but the facts are, that I am a very modern and well ecucated person, and so all my family and my wife family, and so all our friends.
My son is a doctor, and so his wife, and she is a CATHOLIC from Irish descent, and our best friends are Christians, my brother mather-in-law is a Christian Maronite. I attended catholic school, and so my son and so my grandson now (he moved to third grade).
we do enjoy a glass of red wine with some meals at home, and we love to swim, and my wife she wear a one piece swimming suit today, but two piece suit in the past. For us, not what the person eats or dress that makes the quality of a person but what he said and do.

Ladyhawk, My education was not in English, and I learned the English language by myself, so you might see some mistakes in spelling or grammer, even i try sometimes to use my wordperfect12 and the Oxford dictionary to fix my mistakes, so forgive me if I said or use wrong terms.

I will try to answer your post soon.

God bless you.

Name: roy • Date: 07/07/07 22:37

A: Jesus must be happy about the debate which enlighted many unknown details and built friendship among so diverse belief sytems.

Some friends remembers me, hi to brother sam, sister canuckchick, friends panluna and other readers. I felt urged to answer as Panluna complained not satisfactory answer I gave .

Name: Panluna • Date: 06/18/07 7:47
I don't know anything about Islam.it's a new religion for me to explore.I thought Mohammed had written the Koran or Qu'ran---I've seen it spelt both ways.Do you know anything about his life?Was he rich or poor?Did he tend sheep?And who actualy wrote the Qu'ran?I asked Roy who is a Moslim why the Shiites and Sunnis fight all the time.He gave me an answer on one of the previous posts.

ROY SAYS;
shiites and sunnis fight sometime to time but not very often and not without reason. They are under normal conditions enviably friendly to each other and lived without fight to each other for several centuries (not decades) . My sister for example is married to a shiite I dont mind and love their family as my own. I am not any sect but a plain muslim as Prophets Mohammeds(sav) first century muslims.
Extraordinary conditions like todays Iraqi war. Pressure of cruel Saddam (he was not any muslim let alone sunni) for several tens of years has exploded into a blody confrontation of sunni/shiite by ~know it all~american social engineers efforts.
Each year 3 million muslim pray shoulder to shoulder to the Macca for 40 days without single event.

Mohammed didnt write the Quran. He was given instruction through Gabriel during 23 years phase to phase. He was shown as a normal man among crowd, or was given verses asif it was dream. There were clerks who kept revelations of Quran in strict accuracy.

Shatsi CanuckChick
Prophet Mohammed has never allowed his words to be written. It was also forbidden during his 4 successors who were elected by a true democratic ways as if today. The days of peace were interrupted by tyrens
of power hugry rulers. The first cruel ruler who defeated the legitimete successor of Mohammed and captured land , power has started the production of false Mohammedian words haddits. The reason was simple ; to fortify his right to kingdom.
The fabrication continued centuries followed . The ugly face of islam you see is today is mostly cause dby this fabricated hadiths~words.
You can only blame islam on Quran base. If you can find anything in it please tell, otherwise no other source/man has quality enough to represent islam. Please find science in Quran not in hadits.

Panluna,
Mohammeds life is also written by other people and not be trusted truth by the same token I described above. They have plenty of books. Iread none of them. But we know he was business man buying selling goods from neighboring long distance countries/journeys.

Name: Panluna • Date: 06/20/07 12:34
A: Sam,
Did Muhammad ever predict the future?

Roy wrote;
Nobody has the power to predict future unless God decided so. He gave the future news to Mohammed written in Quran ; The persian(idol worshiper in 615 AC.) will be defeated in 3-9 years by Roman (Christians) after a heavy recent defeat by the persians.
It gave morale to the newly emerging muslims not to be swallowed by the powerful persians. Some Christians also were one God believer then. The future event occured exactly as it was declared.
There are several news about dooms day symtoms declared in Quran.

In general other than declared in Quran for future events.I believe in a totally new approach such as; God doesnt even know the future except the things that He decided himself to happen.
One of the cleric has accused me to be out of islam to think that way. This is my conclusion for now.

Name: sam • Date: 07/10/07 13:35

A: Hi Roy,

Welcome back, it is nice to see your name again, and I hope that all our friends here keep connected to this forums.

You mentioned the following: "There are several news about dooms day symtoms declared in Quran."
And Panluna asked me about the prophet "Did Muhammad ever predict the future?", and I am glad you gave her an answer because I was really very busy in the last three weeks, and whith tens of thousands written hadith that is a lot of work to go through. But , Just I came upon those very intresting ones about the last hours:

Sahih Muslim, Book 041, Number 6949:
1. Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger as saying: By Him in Whose Hand is my life, a time would come when the murderer would not know why he has committed the murder, and the victim would not know why he has been killed.
SAHIH BUKHARI
Volume 9, Book 88, Number 183:
1. Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, Time will pass rapidly, good deeds will decrease, miserliness will be thrown (in the hearts of the people) afflictions will appear and there will be much 'Al-Harj. They said, O Allah's Apostle What is Al-Harj? He said, Killing Killing !.

Volume 9, Book 88, Number 184:
Narrated 'Abdullah and Abu Musa:
The Prophet said, Near the establishment of the Hour there will be days during which Religious ignorance will spread, knowledge will be taken away (vanish) and there will be much Al-Harj, and Al-Harj means killing.

Volume 9, Book 88, Number 237:
1. Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, The Hour will not be established,
(1) till two big groups fight each other whereupon there will be a great number of casualties on both sides and they will be following one and the same religious doctrine,
---I can say the WW 1 & WW2 with the millions of Christians killed are a close example.
(2) till about thirty Dajjals (liars) appear, and each one of them will claim that he is Allah's Apostle,
--- Thirty is a number, but who knows how many false prophet are around today, is Jose Jesus Miranda who has millions of followers in Central America and the States one of them (I watch a CNN interview with him), and he claim that Paul is better than Jesus because he speaks wisdom while Jesus speaks parables!!!.
(3) till the religious knowledge is taken away (by the death of Religious scholars)
--- And that is true, because most of the knowledge that is spread after the coming of God messeges and the death of the messengers is switched, that the imams and bishops and the rabbis teachings are mixed with the false teachings.
(4) earthquakes will increase in number .
---- Today, we hear about a lot of earthquakes, maybe because of today media coverage, and I hope if someone could find the truth throughout a search and let me know.
(5) time will pass quickly,
----Did you hear the people complaining these days about not enough hours in the day!!!, or they say the time is flying!!!, ?. One hundred years ago the days were moving slaw and there are plenty of time to do all it has to be done, things were normal then.
(6) afflictions will appear,
---- I do not think that there was a time in the history of mankind where so much distress ans suffering as we can witness today even with all the wealth and the advancements that man acheaves and in every field of knowledge.
(7) Al-Harj, (i.e., killing) will increase,
---- Troubles all around the world, and innocent people killed every day in every country around the globe even in the killing in increase around our nieghbour, watch the news and read every day newspaper, people are killed for nothing even the children.
(8) till wealth will be in abundance ---- so abundant that a wealthy person will worry lest nobody should accept his Zakat, and whenever he will present it to someone, that person (to whom it will be offered) will say, 'I am not in need of it,
---- Zakat is a term that used by the Muslims, and if we look at those Muslim countries who became the wealthiest in the world you will not find the one who will need the "Zakat" or accepted it.
(9) till the people compete with one another in constructing high buildings,
----- In the states they started with 50 &100 &120stories building, and the competition went all around the world, in China, in Japan in Malaysia, even in the tiny Emerate of Dubai which joined the race!!!. I wounder how a person who lived 1400 years ago in a world were the building cannot be constructed with more than 2 or 3 stories can bring the truth about what will happen in the future, and it did happen for sure!!!.
(10) till a man when passing by a grave of someone will say, 'Would that I were in his place .
--- Whith all the good things that we have today, the people in general are more unhappy, uncomfortable and some feel miserable, some wish they never been born and others take away their lives, millions of people around the world suffering beyound any imagination today and in the 21st centuries!!!, and families are destroyed because of those feelings, and children are dying of hunger and deseases and they are not better than the dead one.

Those prophecies are about the signs of the last hour and not about the hour itself, because the knwledge of that is only reserved to God. Jesus first said:
Mat. 24:36 But of that day and hour NO ONE KNOWS, not even the angels of heaven, nor the son, BUT THE FATHER (GOD) ALONE.
And after, the Quran said the same:
Q-33:63 People ask you concerning THE HOUR. Say, "KNOWLEDGE OF IT IS ONLY WITH GOD. And what may make you perceive? perhaps THE HOUR IS NEAR."

Q- 7:187 They ask you [O Muhammad], about THE HOUR: when is its arrival? Say, "ITS KNOWLEDGE IS ONLY WITH MY LORD. NONE WILL REVEAL ITS TIME EXCEPT HIM.

Q- 79:42-46 The ask you, [O muhammad], about THE HOUR: when is its arrival? In what [position] are you that you should mention it ? TO YOUR LORD IS ITS FINALITY. You are ONLY A WARNER FOR THOSE WHO FEAR IT.
IT WILL BE , ON THE DAY THEY SEE IT, AS THOUGH THEY HAD NOT REMAINED [IN THE WORLD] EXCEPT FOR AN AFTERNOON OR A MORNING THEREOF.

After giving my opinion about those Hadith , I would like to hear the others opinions.
Can we tell by what we see and hear today about the changes that our world faces, that we are close to the LAST HOUR?.

God bless you.

Name: roy • Date: 07/10/07 20:07

A: Dear Sam,
I am honored with your warm welcome. I was away for a while for various purposes. It was great time to spend efficiently, intelligently, meaningfuly with you all people. Lots of knowledge to read and adopt to our lives. So pity, I cant read them all.
By the way I didnt know Panluna was a lady, I would have been more polite.

The hadiths of Prophet Mohammed as Canuckchick and Sam put them on forum are all false:
I have been contemplating on the topic ; "if future telling possible" for a long time of my life. I concluded that the information is only at God reservation. I also saw that God has created us for experience and test which one of us would deserve paradise, and vise versa. Bearing in mind of this milestone, we can conclude that the doings and achievements of our perishable lives and bodies only can be predicted by God, however not being directed without our wishes solely by Him. This conclusion also brings in the idea that God does not know how shall we decide and choose on our own limited erray of choises. It means also that He knows all possible choises before it happens and we choose, because He creates them according to His program, but up to our wishes. So as a result He knows all the preprogrammed possible solutions but He leaves the decission taking to us. He doesnt know the one particular choise that we shall make beforehand. If He knew there would have been no reason why to create us humans.

The total outcome of this is unless God has programmed something for us beforehand, He has no knowledge of the shape of nations, people, construction level, crime scores, believer/nonbeliever ratio, wealth situation of mankind, mood of living persons~ like death wish, at the ending time of our universe.

I assume the reasons why the hadiths must be completely erroded from the face of the earth is the suspicion it creates at the hearts of believers, it brings pessimism, it causes false kind of fatalism among devotees.

God has created us, the programme and codes of living which is called "kader= fate, destiny" and set us absolutely free to decide and deserve the praise or curse of God. He helps those who turns face to Him. He deserts the one who forgets Him. These are rules for all religions followers, not only for muslims.

He has the exceptions and of course the right to create whatever He wishes, so He gives the details of the future in case of the decissions He made before no matter what human does to change it. Dooms day is one of that as well as defeat of persians. He creates every possible action happening on earth and universe according to a precission calculated Formula called "kader= fate, destiny" and His contributions to it.

For the future there are several but few verses in Quran. There are many verses for the paradise and hell. If you specialize on them as future telling it is another subject. We talk about earthly future only. Please disregard all the hadiths that is attributed to Mohammed (sav). I gave no value and worth to believe to any of them. Half of them are lies and the rest is transformed into another shape that was meant for. It doesnt help to any muslim nation let alone harmed them to extinction on the face of earth in terms of technology, social values, cultural development, political victory and for the recent centuries militaristic defence success.

The few verses of Quran, telling future events, I put down for you;
Especially first one is enough to override all pessimist lie-hadiths and good news for believers.

3: 55- Behold Allah said: O Jesus I will take thee and raise thee to myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject Faith, to the day of resurrection: then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

27:82- And when the Word is fulfilled against them (the unjust), we shall produce from the earth a Beast to (face) them: He will speak to them, for that mankind did not Believe with assurance in Our Signs.

21: 96- Until the Gog and Magog (people) are let through (their barrier), and they swiftly swarm from every hill.

23:101-And when the Trumpet is blown there will be no kinship among them that day, nor will they ask of one another.

36:49-They await but one Shout, which will surprise them while they are disputing.

5: 14- From those, too, who call themselves Christians, we did take a Covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done.

5: 64- The Jews say: Allah's hand is tied up. Be their hands tied up and be they accursed for the (blasphemy) they utter nay, both his hands are widely outstretched: he giveth and spendeth (of his Bounty) as he pleaseth but the revelation that cometh to thee from Allah increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. Amongst them we have placed enmity. And hatred till the day of judgment. Every time they kindle the fire of war, Allah doth extinguish it; but they (ever) strive to do mischief on earth. And Allah loveth not those who do mischief.

7: 187- They ask thee about the (final) hour when will be its appointed time? say: the knowledge thereof is with my Lord (alone): none but He can reveal as to when it will occur. Heavy were its burden though the heavens and the earth. Only, all of a sudden will it come to you. They ask thee as if thou wart eager in search thereof: say: the knowledge thereof is with Allah (alone), but most men know not.

12: 107- Do they then feel secure from the coming against them of the covering veil of the wrath of Allah, or of the coming against them of the (final) hour all of a sudden while they perceive not?

22:1- O mankind! fear your Lord! for the convulsion of the hour (of Judgement) will be a thing terrible!

29: 25- And he said: For you, ye have taken (for worship) Idols besides Allah, out of mutual love and regard between yourselves in this life; but on the Day of Judgment ye shall disown each other and curse each other: and your abode will be the Fire, and ye shall have none to help.

31: 34- Verily the knowledge of the Hour is with Allah (alone). It is He Who knows rain, and He Who knows what is in the wombs. Nor does any one know what it is that he will earn on the morrow: nor does any one know in what land he is to die. Verily with Allah is full knowledge and He is acquainted (with all things).

33: 63- Men ask thee concerning the Hour: say, The knowledge thereof is with Allah (alone): and what will make thee understand? perchance the Hour is nigh.

47:18 Await they aught save the Hour, that it should come upon them unawares? And the beginnings thereof have already come. But how, when it hath come upon them, can they take their warning?

54:1- The Hour (of Judgment) is nigh, and the moon is cleft asunder.

73: 14- One Day the earth and the mountains will be in violent commotion. And the mountains will be as a heap of sand poured out and flowing down.

79:46-On the day when they behold it, it will be as if they had but tarried for an evening or the morn thereof.

May God be with you. Love may follow whom generous of it.
Roy

Name: Panluna • Date: 07/18/07 14:55

A: Hi Roy,

I've been trying to figure out how people like Nostradamus and Edgar Cayce to name two prophetic souls among a rare handful of people blessed with the God-given ability to foretell the future are able to make accurate predictions.It makes me wonder if the future is writen in stone and if we can change our fates?And how much control do we have to manipulate our future?Are there predictions in the Koran or other books written by Islam's prophets?As far as the "Endtimes" are concerned it is just some earth changes and life forms have survived all previous changes.No need to panic!

Name: roy • Date: 07/25/07 18:44

A: Hi Panluna,
I dont believe these two figures Nostradamus and Edgar Cayce have predicted the future events correctly. The took educated guess and lots of round sentences. Koran is full with stories of prophets who are tested as the rest of other human beings to achive approval of prophesy by God, to be eligible for paradise. It starts with Adam and his two sons Habil, Kabil, It ends with Mohammad sas of such stories. If they knew future themselves there would have been no such severe conditions for them. By the same understanding God has given them test to understand their value and loyalty. This means God also doesnt create future beforehand but decide on the spot and creates according to the feedback He is getting from us. Such example of the same kind is Abraham and his son Esmael on the plain of Mina at Macca. Story goes like; Abraham decides to sacrifice most beloved value ~his son upon order of God, Abraham goes ahead untill a ram gift appears from skys.

We make our own destiny. We dont have any prescript stone tablets about our fate. However the program of creation, rules, calculations, formulas of natural forces has been written beforehand on a tablet or a program sheet called "Levh-i Mahvuz" "Source of Decrees","clear book","tablet preserved". You may understand it if compared as the Microsoft Windows program operates in a computer, no other solution can come out from same entry you use in an Excel sheet, no matter how many times you try.

In general we can say God knows all the outcomes beforehand as He has written the program Himself. He rules and interferes on it whenever necessary and good for us to be true.

10-61- In whatever business thou mayest be, and whatever portion thou mayest be reciting from the Quran, and whatever deed ye (mankind) may be doing, we are witnesses thereof when ye are deeply engrossed therein. Nor is hidden from thy Lord (so much as) the weight of an atom on the earth or in heaven. And not the least and not the greatest of these things but are recorded in a clear record.
43-4- And verily, it is in the Mother of the Book, in Our Presence, high (in dignity), full of wisdom
85-22- (Inscribed) in a Tablet Preserved!

We can change and manupulate our future as free as we can under the rules of program we were given for use in the earth and universe. The prophets had no power to predict future unless they were given info by God about His decissions. Prophets didnt foretell the future but they had placed such a big belief in God that they never were suspicious about the future to bring them agony. The future events of that time were told to prophets to prepare fled from the disaster for their people remain behind. They had tens of historical facts described in Koran of that kind. I guess it is another chapter of discussion.

We had some predicitons in Koran as I wrote before for Persian Byzantine war result. The end of universe...
The survival chance of us human beings after the end is 100 percent. The earth will change its shape transforming into a plain, no mountain, red sky, where everybody will die and will be raised from their grave later on.
I hope to see you after we raised.
Roy

Name: Panluna • Date: 07/26/07 17:14

A: Roy,

Peace and Bright Blessings in this lifetime.

Name: betty47 • Date: 07/27/07 3:21

A: Knowledge—Clearer and Sharper Than Ever Before

That's the name of this thread. However, these discussions seem more confused then ever before. That's because you're all trying to convince each other that one person's religion is better than another's. Christianity is not better than Islam and visa versa in their purest forms.

Name: roy • Date: 07/27/07 9:59

A: Betty47 wrote:
you're all trying to convince each other that one person's religion is better than another's. Christianity is not better than Islam and visa versa in their purest forms.
Roy wrote;
I dont try to convince but search for the truth,the purest forms of christianity is islam, so no necesity to be better or worse as they name the same. This could include even Buda. We believe every comunity has received a prophet which may well exceed 124.000 person. They were all under one large religion umbrella.

Name: Panluna • Date: 07/27/07 14:39

A: Betty47 and Roy,

The best religion is the one that a person is comfortable with and suits the individual's needs.If it can stand up to scrutiny then it's worth following.The Truth is my religion no matter how many layers I have to dig through or how many angles I have to examine.

We grow with knowledge and education which can clarify or sharpen perception.

Name: betty47 • Date: 07/27/07 16:45

A: Yes. I agree with all these recent comments. There is no clarity and no religion is better than any other. There's a better chance of life on other planets than there is of any religion being true.

Name: betty47 • Date: 07/27/07 21:56

A: An interesting perspective on different religions from comments regarding an article on WashingtonPost.com. I am in no way saying, I agree. I just find different persepctives interesting.

______________-________________________
Quot-e- from WashingtonPost.com - "

Please peruse the following followed by your own critique of the flawed foundations of religions:

A synopsis reiterated many times because of its importance:

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was probably a mythical character. If he was real, he was at best a combination of at least three men. 1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT.

2. Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations, has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth. Analyses of his life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists)via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian/Jewish/Pagan sects.

3. Mohammed, an illiterate, hallucinating Arab, also had embellishing/hallucinating scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the Koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers. This agenda continues as shown by the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers , the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers , the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani koranics, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases and the Filipino koranics with most of this misery being funded by the third Axis of Evil aka Iran.

4. Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingy thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

5. Hinduism (from an online Hindu site) - "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centred and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’" The caste/laborer system and cow worship are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."

6. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."

"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"

Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circumstances of his life.

http://www.wsu.edu/~d-ee/BUDDHISM/SIDD.HTM

Bottom- line: There are many good ways of living but be aware of the hallucinations/embellishments and myths surrounding the founders of said rules of life.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus for an analysis of Jesus' life to include his illiteracy.

End Quote. I do not know the author and can't say I agree with the comments. Just find them interesting.

Name: sam • Date: 08/05/07 15:09

A: betty47,
you said,
"An interesting perspective on different religions from comments regarding an article on WashingtonPost.com. I am in no way saying, I agree. I just find different persepctives interesting."

What did you learn from those interesting Junks ( when lies is mixed with the truth the suject will become no more than junk)

I read the comments, and what about the article?
Those comments are just an opinion of someone who does not know the whole truth, but bring lies, and the person who came with this stuff, is politically motivated, and probably a Jew. But you and those like you will find everything interesting even the junk writing. An educated and smart person should know better than to spread such a work.

betty 47, can you see that those 6 comments , missed MOSES !!!, as A jew he cannot speak about Moses and the Jews, or he will be in trouble, because who run the Washington post are ????, like those who run CNN and most of the media. cinema, radio, newspaper, and TV'S.
Everything is planned to spread lies and hate, can you see that?.

The comments: 1- Abraham, 2-Jesus, 4- Luther, 5- Hinduism, 6- Buddhism, there were jeneral analyses , and he did not mention the wars, stealing of land and kill its people, and he did not mention the Christian history which is full of killing and distruction up to this date, and not about the lies and the war that is happening today in Iraq and many other places just for the purpose of controling the world and its resources,

But whem he brought his comment # 3 about Muhammad and the Quran in two andhalf lines which are not true but full of lies, he inserted the venom and brought things that has nothing to do with the Quran and Islam, bringing the acts of few people as an example of the Islam faith is put for one reason and that is to bring hate against them and that is the DEVIL work, and here what he said, "the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers , the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers .

7 Muslim...12 terrorist/ 9/11... the sunni & the shiite !!!! which all happen as a result for the American Christians and others contries in stealing their land and kill their people and take their resouces, The Iraqi people lived in peace before bush and his friends invented lies and send their army to distry the country. everything was planned and the American and who support them ????, are creatin what is going over there from problems.
Then this fellow forget about the Christian history. What about 2000 years of war and killing and burning people, by the people of the churches, can that represent Jesus and the Gospels, and the religion?, and what about killing 5+ million Jews, and what about slaving the blacks and killing the Indian and Mayan etc. and what about sending their armies to occupy other countries and stealing their resources???. He did not talk about Bush lies and the bombing and destroying the factories and the schools and killing 600000 of innocent people , killing women and children, and the 5 million who lost their home to become refugees?

On CBS - TV, there was a decomentary two day ago which shows those soldiers who came from Iraq, Telling the truth about what the army of Bush is doing over there, and killing innocent people (sharp shooter killing civilians walking far away for no reason) , women and children too, and it shows the soldiers in their training marching and shouting saying "kill the haggee, kill the arabs and muslims...." and another one " kill their children in the sunday morning and then ring the bell..."

This program shows in Canada, but I don't thing that ca be broadcasted in the US, because it is a free country , at list for some!!!.

I say it before, and I will say again, "RELIGION AND FAITH DO NOT KILL BUT THE PEOPLE DO KILL"

THE COMMANDMENT: YOU SHALL NOT MURDER.
THE QURAN : WHOEVER KILLS A SOUL UNLESS FOR A SOUL OR FOR CORRUPTION DONE IN THE LAND, IT IS AS IF HE HAD SLAIN MANKIND.

God bless you.

Name: sam • Date: 08/07/07 3:00

A: Hi Panluna,

You said,
A- "The best religion is the one that a person is comfortable with and suits the individual's needs."
My Question, 1- "Do you believe in GOD ?". 2- "Do you believe in the Judgment day ?". 3- Did you read what Jesus said, "A word against the holy spirit (God) it will never be forgiven" What about worshiping other than God ?.

--- Sorry to say that what you said, and betty47 agree with you is wrong.
First, It is not what you feel comfortable with in this short life on earth is matter much , when you end in the comfortable place for the etenal life.
Second, The people who do not believe in God are comfortable, and the same for those who worship idols, and those who worship the sun and the cow and the rats and also those who follow wrong teaching etc., they are all comfortable here on earth and happy. But if you believe in the commandments and the teaching of Jesus , and what came in the Quran, then do you think that those who are comfortable will be in heaven with God and set on the side of God prophets and the other good believer ?.
Third, The needs for the people on earth should not be a way to reject God's needs from us, and that is to believe in Him only, and do what HE asked us to do. What is important OUR NEED OR GOD ?. what you think ?.

B- "If it can stand up to scrutiny then it's worth following."
--- It is known, and it is fact, that people will defend what they believe in, no matter if they believe in rats as their god, ar they belive that their soul will re-incarnated in animals before it became inlightened, and what about what will happen to the billion of souls ?.
Do you believe that they are right? because if your answer is yes, then that means that you do not believe in God and His words.
Also, the teaching that been created by man and put as it is God word, while it is full of contradictions and errors, an cannot be trusted to be reliable, and done to serve the people, and to make people feel comfortable is not the right believe. We human cannot make the rules as we wish, that is only for God to make the rules and to give commandments.

Every person been given the total freedom to find out the truth, but at the end he will responsible for his choise, because the word of God sent to all. It is like if you did something wrong because you did not know the law, and the law was writen, and the court will give the punishment regardless if you know the law or not. You check that out.

...................-.....................

Hi- betty 47,

You said, "you're all trying to convince each other that one person's religion is better than another's"

That is a claim that some use when he/she cannot bring their own truth. Everyone claims that he/she is seeking the truth, and open minded, and willing to listen to the others, but when a person bring his opinion, which they do not like (???!!!), then the rules is changed.

Betty47, No one is trying to convince you or the others, the person who believe that the statue/caw/rat, is his god, there is only a small chance to change his belief , because in the first place he could not understand that those he worships, they do not talk or think and be of much good to him except giving material thing that will turn at the end to dust on earth.
I am Just bringing the truth in a logical way, and Jesus words to me as the Quran words, both came from God, the God of Abraham and Moses and all the human on this earth. And you should understand that I am deffending Jesus from those who create their religion in His name and brought lies,. there is the good and the bad in every religion, that what come from people, but the religion that is built on God teaching cannot be except the whole truth, that is a person really believe in God.

God bless you both.

Name: roy • Date: 08/07/07 18:12

A: Panluna wrote;
A: Betty47 and Roy,
The best religion is the one that a person is comfortable with and suits the individual's needs.If it can stand up to scrutiny then it's worth following.

Roy wrote:
Panluna, we can not be in the position to suit religion into our needs, on the contrary we as eternal beings must fing the TRUTH and suit ourseves to the religion rules and boundaries wanted from us. I agree with you fully what you say below:
The Truth is my religion no matter how many layers I have to dig through or how many angles I have to examine.

We grow with knowledge and education which can clarify or sharpen perception.

Roy wrote;
Religion to suit to a homosexual for example is something distorted religion whatever is called. It is same an adulterer, thief, or killer find a suitable religion and continue his devilish work.

Betty47,
There is no religion and billions of people have been wrong throughout history !! Miracles happened are hallucinations !! Prophets sent were illeterates !! Muslims, chrisitans, martyrs were killed just in vain!! They were all fighting for land, and looting !! People who found solace and comfort against earthly agony have been all wrong!!

But your Washington Post crook was right !
Fighting against all religion has become fashionable in some parts of the world as the manupulated Christianity, Jewism, Muslim didnt bring happiness to the masses. Imagine a religion the rabbis or priests; supposedly most sacred figures of the belief, have been torturing, burning people, ordering to kill and commit loathsome abuse of children students, homosexuality ect.. What can you expect from the regular people other than reject all religious affairs altogether.

Sam is very right; people is to blame not the religions in their original forms. He puts many things in patient, painstaking correct way, I send my special thanks.

In earnest wish to have the light in souls who havent had yet.

Name: Panluna • Date: 08/07/07 22:50

A: Roy,
If I were to cast my vote for the best and truest religion then it would be for the original religion of humankind namely the laws and mysteries of Nature.Everyone is equal in birth,life and death and then we return to the cosmic sea.It's the intellect of each religion's creator that gives it vision and voice.

Name: roy • Date: 08/08/07 15:50

A: If laws and mysteries of Nature (both universe, and human nature) has been revealed to you in a hard-nosed scrutiny proof book, would you rather say lets give it a benefit of the doubt or shun forever! You keep blaming the people who called themselves believer of that book in their own way, but lazy enough to search the truth by your means. Have you done your homework to dig enough the layers you mentioned in previous post? Are you sure you may not be mistaken?

Panluna wrote:
Everyone is equal in birth,life and death and then we return to the cosmic sea.

Roy wrote:
Yes we are equal on birth life and death. Some of the verses related to the equality of mankind up to my belief system in Quran.

49:13 O mankind! Lo! We have created you male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that ye may know one another. Lo! the noblest of you, in the sight of Allah, is the best in conduct. Lo! Allah is Knower, Aware.

28:83- That Home of the Hereafter we shall give to those who intend not high handedness or mischief on earth: and the End is (best) for the righteous.

43:32- Is it they who would portion out the Mercy of thy Lord? It is We Who portion out between them their livelihood in the life of this world: and We raise some of them above others in ranks, so that some may command work from others. But the Mercy of thy Lord is better than the (wealth) which they amass.

17:21- See how we have bestowed more on some than on others; but verily the Hereafter is more in rank and gradation and more in excellence.

6:165- It is He Who hath made you (his) agents, inheritors of the earth: He hath raised you in ranks, some above others: that He may try you in the gifts He hath given you: for thy Lord is quick in punishment: yet He is indeed Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

16:71- Allah has bestowed his gifts of sustenance more freely on some of you than on others: those more favored are not going to throw back their gifts to those whom their right hands possess, so as to be equal in that respect. Will they then deny the favours of Allah?

13:16- Say: who is the Lord and Sustainer of the heavens and the earth? say: (it is) Allah. Say: do ye then take (for worship) protectors other than him, such as have no power either for good or for harm to themselves? say: are the blind equal with those who see? or the depths of darkness equal with light? or do they assign to Allah partners who have created (anything) as he has created, so that the creation seemed to them similar? say: Allah is the Creator of all things: he is the one, the supreme and irresistible.

Panluna wrote;
It's the intellect of each religion's creator that gives it vision and voice.
Roy wrote:
I disagree on the "creator of religion" name, There is only one creator of a true religion, He is God. He used prophets as sample human beings who lived up to the revelations, nonbelievers called them "creator of religion". The rest of the people who claim or wrote religious books or comments on any religion are all subject to scrutiny, critic, bound to mistake, prone to subjectivity, destined to be outdated.

One can reach the God in two ways, one is searching the truth with clear mind, second; conviction without searching enough. I admit have gone through the second path but proved it with my mind later. Perhaps first way is more praised, you may unlock one day, I pray.

Name: sam • Date: 08/08/07 18:24

A: Panluna,

I read your answer to Roy, very interesting, and later I will bring my thoughts about it.
At the end, you mentioned "VISION", and I remember that you mentioned before about your three visions, and seeing Mary the Mother of Jesus.

Visions are real and I do believe in them, but they are mysterious like the mystery that you mentioned before about “where God live”. Jesus and the Quran told us about it, but we will not and we cannot grasp how it look like or how big it is or what it hold within.

I had several visions about things that will happen, and they did happen, My wife and my son are witness, because when I see a vision I mention it to them and they witness things happen exactly as i see it after a short time.
Dear Panluna, I am going to bring some questions, and they are not as doubt about your visions, but only to know more about your experience.
(Let us share our vison and analyze them.)

1- Did your experience came as a dream, or in another way?.
2- What kind was the contact, and were there any word exchanged?.
3- The vision has a biginning and an end, Can you give us the total picture of your vision?.

In the holy book, we can read about Abraham vision, and here how it came in the Quran:
"And He [Abraham] said, " Indeed, I will go to where I am ordered by My Lord; HE will guide Me.
Mw Lord, grant Me a child from among the righteous."
"And when he reached with Him the age of exertion, He said, "O my son, Indeed I have seen in a dream that I must sacrifice you, so see what you think." He said, "O my father, do as you are commanded. You will find me, if Allah wills, of the steadfasts."
And then they both submitted and He put him dpwn upon his forehead,
WE called to Him, " O Abraham,
you fulfilled the VISION." In deed, this was the clear trial. Q- 37 :99-106

The vision of Abraham was a trial for Him and He pass, Because His believe in God was so strong.
The visions that other people, might come for other purposes, those that we don't know, and only God knows. But it is for sure a blessing from God. And after that God will give us a reward, as He gave to Abraham:

And WE ransomed Him with a great sacrifice,
And WE left for Him [favorable mention] among later generations:
"PEACE UPON ABRAHAM."
Indeed, WE thus reward the doers of good.
Indeed, He was of OUR believing servants.
AND WE GAVE HIM GOOD TIDINGS OF ISAAC, A PROPHET FROM AMONG THE RIGHTEOUS. (big reward)
And WE blessed Him and Isaac. But among their descendebts is the doer of good and the clearly unjust to himself [the sinner].

God bless you.

Name: Panluna • Date: 08/08/07 20:58

A: Hi Sam and Roy,

I think you misunderstood what I said about the religions' creators. I wasn't writting about God.I was writting about the people like Jesus,Mohammed,Buddha and anyone else who had a view and voiced their ideas of the Deities.And then founded a religion.

The oldest religion of humanity is nature based and the representitives were known as Shamans.They worshipped animal spirits(Animism) and were very mystfied by the natural world around them.The first sky -diety was the Sun.

When humans evolved a more complicated brain and intellect they became unified in larger tribes and then they developed organised religion with a leader who founded it based on a higher purpose.And the faithful follow.

Have you ever made the pilgramage to Mecca?I just watched a program about meteorites.

Name: Panluna • Date: 08/09/07 0:49

A: Sam,
In answer to your questions about my visions.I was awake and alert during the visitations.As far as I know I wasn't in any trances.She spoke to me telepathicly and in the beginning there was a strange electrical sensation as the temperature dropped in the room.But I would remain warm after a brief spine-tingling chill.When Mary appeared to me she had light glowing around her head and there was the scent of flowers.She seemed to glow from within her white dress then she sparkled.and then she solidified in an ethereal luminesence.She wore a blue veil and a golden belt.She has the most perfect face showing a compassionate expression.Her feet never touched the ground.I tried to touch them -- Mary and the Monk--but they always moved out of my reach.When the monk visits he floats through the furniture or is reflected from inside a mirror and at first he appears as a white oval cloud and then he becomes more clearly defined.I think he looks like Padre Pio but the robe he wears is similar to the one St Francis wore.Just to remind you I wasn't given any special messeges to share with the world you know like prophecies or anything like that.Mary was more comforting at the times when I was highly distressed and the monk first appeared Halloween night several years ago on the same day my father passed away.A Psychic friend of mine who could actually see him standing next to me told me that he was an ancestral spirit.Strange thing is I didn't tell her anything about him when I went to her for my reading.There was always a flash of golden light in the shape of an oval doorway preceding the actual visions.And a wonderful sense of joyous peace is given to me as they depart to wherever Divine Spirits dwell.I'm not afraid of them.And they don't appear together at the same time.Actually I'm looking forward to their next visit. O Divine Light!!!!How great you are!!!!!

Name: roy • Date: 08/09/07 11:23

A: Panluna,
I understood correct about religion creator you dont mean God, this is why ı wrote my objection! Only God may create religion, other figures, authors, philosophers, mystic monks are all nothing more than popular fallacies. Jesus, Mohammed, Moses didnt found religion on their own wishes, They were given revelations, in direct or indirect ways. Some prophets God had spoken directly without seen, some has been accepted at closer circles.

Shamanism is first known religion of turkish anchestors of me we still have some bigotry habits that carry on in islam. The believers are existing even today. There is nothing to admire or accept in wisdom, however what you say about improvement of human intellect and new advances in each new version of religion is correct hypothesis. God gives new rules and approaches according to human mind development.

Finally , I made pilgrimage to Mecca and touched to the stone that you call meteorites. It is dark black stone had some square bright shapes of half inch long, inside of it. It has marvelous perfume, and has been tought to be sent from sky. It is the sign of starting of making tavaf~ (walking one round around Kabaa). I believe christians and jews are also desiring to visit Mecca one day, as it is said in Quran. People has tendancy to come there, as a result of accepted prayer of Abraham.

I had seen many muslims with the love of that Mecca city in a strange magnetism and admiration.

Name: Panluna • Date: 08/09/07 15:10

A: Roy,

I just looked up the Kabaa.There is a nice website explaining it.

So God inspired religions and humans interpret God's divine Will.

Name: roy • Date: 08/10/07 11:26

A: Hi Panluna,
Yes exactly I aggree, as you made a correct statement. Unfortunately, humans interpret it in thousands of different way and finally religion turns out to burden human rather help him find the easy passage for the cosmic next world.
The video below describes Kabaa and its history.God invites all who believes in him. At least you may see on National Geographic Video below: Inside mecca

http://shop.nationalgeogr-aphic.com/product/1526.html
-(- Please take away – hyphens if any)

Please tell which website you have looked at.

Name: Panluna • Date: 08/10/07 14:57

A: Roy,

Religion is a burden when people are oppressed and forced to believe in it.God's words were meant to enlighten.and when it is the time for a person's demise then that person will enter the next state of being.

The website I looked for the Kabaa is: anwary-islam.com/Kabaa

Name: sam • Date: 08/10/07 21:50

A: Hi Panluna,

You mentioned this,
A- "Religion is a burden when people are oppressed and forced to believe in it.
You are right. SO LET US SEE WHO IS THE OPPRESSOR.

ISLAM is the only religion that clearly mentioned the freedom of person to accept it or not:
Q- 2:256 "THERE SHALL BE NO COMPULSION IN ACCEPTANCE OF THE RELIGION."
Q- 29:46 "And DO NOT ARGUE WITH THE PEOPLE OF THE SCRIPTURE (Jews & Christians) EXCEPT IN A WAY THAT IS BEST..."
(But what the people do, is what the people do ,sometimes they do what God asked them not to do., and we chould not blaime God or the religion)
So, Panluna, when a person comes to choose a religion he should not make his choice according to the teaching of people (Sunaguoge, Church or Mosque) , but according to the original teaching that came from God by His messengers. And to find the truth one should analyse the information and see if it go side by side with logic, common sense and science.

Judaism, is a religion that surrounded itself by their own laws, no one can be accepted in unless the mother is Jewish [of corse that might changed liitle today for some], and that is why their number is very small, while they are the oldest in religion.

Christianity, known throughout the history, as the religion that forces people to believe in, and in what the churches believe and what the churches create, if not the person can be killed or burned, things also might changed little bit today, but still live in some heads,[either you are with us or against us law - THE LAW OF THE BUSH, and I don't mean the shrub, but the people of the Bushes, which poped up again in the 21st century].
Christianity after the death of Jesus became the religion of Paul, and Paul broke the agremment betwee God and Abraham, "And this is the agreement which you are TO KEEP WITH ME, you and your seed after you: every male among you is to undergo circumcision."
AND THE CHURCHES FOLLOWED HIM !!!., AND THE CHRISTIANS FOLLOWED THE CHURCHES!!!.

B- "God's words were meant to enlighten.and when it is the time for a person's demise then that person will enter the next state of being."

You are right, God said in the Quran:
28:56 Indeed, [O Muhammad], you do not guide whom you like, but Allah [God] guides whom HE wills. And HE is most knowing of the rightly guided.
10:40-44 And of them are those who believe in it, and of them those who do not believe in it. And your LORD is most knowing of the corrupters... And if they deny you, [O Muhammad], then say, "for me are my deeds, and for you are your deeds. You are disassociated from what I do, and I am disassociated from what you do...And among them are those who listen to you. but can you cause the deaf to hear [i.e.,benefit from this hearing], although they will not use reason?...And among them are those who look at you. But can you guide the blind although they will not attempt to see?...Indeed, ALLAH[GOD] DOES NOT WRONG THE PEOPLE AT ALL, BUT IT IS THE PEOPLE WHO ARE WRONGING THEMSELVES.

God bless you.

Name: sam • Date: 08/11/07 18:05

A: Dear Panluna,

Your post, 08/08/07 20:49 about your visions.
“She spoke to me telepathicly” Then later on you said,”“Just to REMIND YOU [ !!! remind me of what?], I wasn't given any special messeges to share with the world YOU KNOW [!!! I don’t know, please REMIND ME] like prophecies or anything like that...”

---- When you said she spoke to me, that means, she said something TO YOU that you did understand (telepathicly or not), Can you tell what She said?, or it was like a bumble?.
If the message wasn’t for the world, but it was just for you, and if it is not a top secret, then you can share it with us, because you did share it with the Psychic your friend.
---- Is the monk visit was at the same time with Mary?.

“ the robe he wears is similar to the one St Francis wore.”
---- St Francis of Siena, +1328:His deep devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary prompted him to frequent a cherished image of Mary in his home, repeatedly kneeling before it to say the Hail Mary.
---- From the above I understand that the date of his life wasn’t known, and I don’t think that there is a real picture to show what he dresses, So how did you know about the type of the dress he wears?.

“A Psychic friend of mine who could actually see him standing next to me told me that he was an ancestral spirit”
---- You mean that your friend was with you and saw the monk?, or he did see you and the monk next to you while he is not there?.
When you saw the monk which looks like St Padre Pio, with similar dress to St Francis, and your Psychic friend did see the same and he saw you and the monk!!!, and for sure he knows both, Padre and Francis, but the monk which he saw was an ancestral spirit of yours!!!.
I cannot figure out how that can be!!!, and how can he tell that the spirit came from your ancestral if he did not know them?, did the spirit spoke with him and gave its identity?.

“when I went to her for my reading”
---- Do you go for your reading in regular basis?, and why?.
Does she charge you for her reading?.
Is this person a very close and trusted friend?.

The reason for my questions are to know more, because there are many visions & sittings [about the virgin Mary] as you mentioned, and this subject came before when my fried Joe trusty in the forums of the National Geographic mentioned that he visited Niagara Falls with the member of his church to check out the site. We exchanged hundreds of very long posts last years (he is an engineer -from Boston), and I am going to bring his words, and I find them, and some others.

God bless you.

Name: Panluna • Date: 08/12/07 16:57

A: Sam,
In most of the documented cases like when Mary appeared to Bernadette of Lourdes or the three children in Fatima and other visions there was a prophecy given or instruction to follow.In Bernadette's case which occured in the 1800's she reported the vision and no one believed her.She was instructed by Mary to return to the grotto and a crowd followed her.She was the only one who could see Mary and following instructions from Mary started to dig.She washed herself with the mud and at that point the crowd thought she was crazy but then a spring of water appeared and started to gush forth.The first person to be cured by the miraculous healing waters of Lourdes was a crippled little boy.Ironicly Bernadette bore her illnesses as her cross to bear until the day she died.The three children of Fatima where given several prophecies about world wars and the assination attempt of one of the Popes----Pope John Paul the 2nd.

In my cases which are undocumented I was not given any special messeges or prophecies etc.as a non-catholic but as a spiritualist I believe I'm just meant to recount my experiences as a matter of faith--I could be "one of the lost sheeps".She appeared to me three times when I was extremely distressed and in danger.The first time was in 1954 in Central Park,the 2nd time was on my birthday 1974 and the 3rd time was in late winter 1991 in Hawaii.

When I mentioned the monks robe it was more like what St Francis of Assissi wore---something similar to the brown robes worn by the Cappucin or Fransican monks.You can look up anything on the Saints etc on the Catholic websites,Wikipedia and Beliefnet.

My Psychic friend did the reading as a birthday gift to me and I did not tell her anything at all when I first met her.I let her "read" my aura.I was testing her ability since I was a little skeptical at that time and was learning more about developing the 6th sense.The fact that she could see the Monk standing next to me when he was invisible to me at that time of the reading was enough to convince me to go on with my training.My reading took place in the summer of 2000.He started appearing to me Halloween of 1997.
And the reason why I reminded you that the visits held no special world-saving revelations was because I mentioned it on another post on this forum.
But not all spirits are friendly.I was attacked by a Polterguist haunting a house we rented California in the Spring of 1993.It never took a human shape.My collie dog was afraid of it.It literly picked me up bodily and threw me into the side of the bathtub.And it would appear as glowing neon green colored mass that kept changing it 's shape and then would make noises like cellephane being crinkled and it would snap ,crackle and pop.As a matter of fact it gave off a hiedious oder and spine-chilling laugh.it would turn the TV set on and off and it bent two brand new tapers that I had just put in wall sconces and placed them on the floor halfway across the room making a heart shape out of the candles.Maybe it was trying to tell me something!!! If the candles had fallen on their own logic would tell you that I would have found them underneath the wall sconces near the wall--not halfway across the room.And I did not have our wood-burning stove on that day.So there is no logical explanation for why those two tapers were still warm and bent to form a heart shape on the floor halfway across the room.Fortunately when we moved we left the Polterguist behind.We left for a week around New Years of 1991 and the lights in the house kept going on and off and the neighbors heard a really heidious shriek coming from the house in California one dark and stormy night.One of the neighbors told me about me about it--he thought we had a timer for the lights.I told him the house was haunted.

Name: Panluna • Date: 08/12/07 17:14

A: A LITTLE CORRECTION:.We lived in California from the late Spring of 1991 to 1993.The light incident happened New Years of 1993.I had 1991 down and we were still in Hawaii.This makes more logical sense on the timeline.

Name: sam • Date: 08/12/07 22:33

A: Dear Panluna,

I will answer your post later on. I been trying to find the post in the N.G. forums, which my friend wrote about the sitting of Mary in the region of Niagara Falls/Ca., I did spend several hours, but there is tons of pages to go through. I will try to find it, but the things that He said , "he found that was a hoax . Of cource the sitting was publicized by the churches in the area, and went on TV , then came to be known as a hoax when inquiries pul out the plug!!!.

Panluna, In the last few years I collected many on that subject, and I took notes from the TV script on the net, and some I taped when i got chance. And I transfer them to my wordperfect. I thought to chare my findings with you.

The 7.Shroud of Turin (or Turin Shroud) is an ancient linen cloth bearing the image of a man who appears to have been physically traumatized in a manner consistent with crucifixion. It is presently kept in the royal chapel of the Cathedral of Saint John the Baptist in Turin, Italy. Some believe it is the cloth that covered Jesus of Nazareth when he was placed in his tomb
Arguments and evidence cited against a miraculous origin of the shroud images include a letter from a medieval bishop to the
8.Avignon pope claiming personal knowledge that the image was cleverly painted to gain money from pilgrims; radiocarbon tests in 1988 that yielded a medieval timeframe for the cloth's fabrication; and analysis of the image by microscopist Walter McCrone, who concluded ordinary pigments were used.
The Electron Optics Group of McCrone Associates published the results of these studies in five articles in peer-reviewed journals,scientists have confirmed that the Shroud is a forgery. Vatican refuses to co-operate!!!.
-----------------
---- ONE’S A MIRACLE:----
Facts or fictions
In the fifties, in a church, and in a small mountain town in Lebanon, the story of a Maronite priest (monk), who claimed seeing Mary, the Mother of God on the roof of his church, and the word spread out that he does miracles, and he healed so many from many different sickness/illness was the talk all over Lebanon and surrounding countries. Thousands of Christians visited him, and even people from other faiths started to take their sick one to him. His small town flourished and a lot of wealth came to everyone in that town including the priest, and he was named a saint - Quaddice-saint Charbel- by his followers, and even they started swearing by his name, then after few years later, people discovered that no one had been healed on his hand according to the opinions of those doctors who examen them later, and all the miracles which the father Quaddice- Charbel done are just a big hoax.
---------------------
---- MIRACLES BY THE DOZENS.----

And now after many decades we still hear such a miracles taking place and in the united state which suppose to be the most advanced nation in the world .
Millions of people have watched on their TV set those miracles which were done by a priest and his assistants in the church. And in front of the eyes of few thousands worshipers, the one on the wheel-chair for many years started to walk after the priest gave him a little push to fall into the assistants hand, then in a flash the cripple man started to walk again, and the blinds can see again , and the sick are cured, and after every show, you see the worshipers standing up, with their hand lifted up, praising God, and after that big show the dollars starts to fall into the baskets, and the priest put his announcement to reach every one in the nation asking the listeners to give generously to his church, many millions of dollars been collected, those dollars which mostly came from the poor and the elderly and the honest.
I watched those programs myself, and in every time I was wondering how can such people in our time believes in those acts and support them. Then to my surprise one day, those hoax been explained on TV, and how those acts been done by peoples who were paid very generously to do their acts. You think those are the only one out there?, if you catch one here; there are many more out there brewing new hoaxes.
As we know, people can get fine and jail when they do such a thing; did that priest pay any fine or serve a jail term?, did the other churches say their word against such a hoax or gave their disapprovals?. Of course NOT.
-------------------
---- SIGHT-SEEING ----
In the last few week, It came and for several time with the news on TV, that there were two sighting for the Virgin Mary and in which SHE appears on a tree in small town in Texas.
And as soon as I heard it, it comes to my mind, that may be a republican who told this story. What came to my mind at that time, maybe it came to the minds of many others, and what I thought could be right or wrong.
Many times before, people claiming seeing the Virgin Mary in different ways, on the glass of a building, on top of a church, or in the figure of a loaf of bread etc., and of course in their dreams.
Besides, we heard a lot about the crying Mary, and the tears of blood; Those things happen all over the world . And several time were proven that there are people behind all that.
But here, and in the United states, in 3rd of Dec. 2005. It was put in the news (CNN) for several times in one day, and the same in the following days, the picture of the white statue of the Virgin Mary with red tears coming through her eyes, and you can see people coming from all over to watch this miracle . And of course many reporters who asked the standing by for their opinions, and the majority believe in this as a miracles, and only few believes that this is a hoax; and all that it does not matter much; but what it matters most is the opinion of the priest of that church, were the statue belongs, and those are his words, when he answered the reporter questions:
R- do you believe that is a miracle, or a hoax?
A- I don’t know.
R- Are you going to investigate?,
A- NO.
R- Why not, it is easy to find out?,
A- I don’t think it is necessary..... etc.,
My questions are: is it from the priest position to uncover the truth and not to let his followers to be mislead by a hoax?. Is he afraid to loose the income which comes from the many visitors who comes, and keeps coming to see the miracle and to be blessed by HER and by the church, then after, they will give generously their donations in supporting to Her preferable church?.
---------------------
----- PRIEST SERVICES ---

On one of the CNN program a colored priest sat in front of the cameras answering many questions put to him about the five million dollars mansion he owns and the many expensive cars, and his answer came with noticeable smile, “I am giving good service to the church, and to the community, and what GOD gave me I cannot refuse”.
I think that priest he got more than the wages which Paul ask for when he said, “What then is my reward?”. Paul was asking for reward to his hard work, and traveling all over, may be sometimes on feet; but those priests they got it all, and I really mean it all .
-------------------------
JIM & Jimmy.
- I was going to end my work here, but every time I listen to the TV, I find more new stuff similar to the one I already talked about it before, and while I am having break from my work to listen to the TV, here comes some talk about Jim Bakker, which I forgot all about him, and it is
not fair to write about the others, and leave the famous Mr. Jim Bakker and his wife Tammy Faye, since both they done a tremendous job in preaching the Gospel through their program on TV.
Tell you the truth, even I saw him on TV several times, I know little bit about him, but more about his wife Tammy, and how can I forger her colorful face and the fancy stuff she is wearing, and appearing for many times on CNN , and with Larry King. So I went to find the truth about him and here what I found.
- In 1964 he ordained as a minister.
- In 1974 PTL show begins.
Up until 1987, televangelist Jim Bakker and his wife Tammy Faye were living in extravagance. The way they told it, “PROSPERITY WAS A GIFT FROM GOD”, and he had blessed them with an army of followers , and immense personal fortunes. The PTL ministry had a burn rate of 500,000 dollars per day.
Jim got snagged funneling 265,000 dollars in hush money to “virginal” church secretary Jessica Hahn, in order to cover up their adulterous tryst. Suddenly the Bakkers became pariahs. All of their friends deserted them. Even fellow Assemblies of God minister JIMMY SWAGGART took some unnecessary potshots, just for fun and just to be on top. Swaggert went on CNN and told Larry King “THAT JIM WAS A CANCER IN THE BODY OF CHRIST”.
Bakker’s rival and business competitor JERRY FALWELL was called in to rescue the PTL ministery along with its heritage USA theme park, but Falwell had a much different goal. Years later, he described his brief stint as head of PTL this way:
“GOD SENT ME there to bring an abrupt end to the immorality and financial fraud of this ‘religious soap opera’ that had become AN INTERNATIONAL EMBARRASSMENT TO THE CHRISTIAN GOSPEL.”
THE Bakkers and their empire had blown through 158 millions dollars of their ministry’s donations. In his self-serving CONFESSION “ I WAS WRONG”, and he admitted squandering church money on LUXURY CARS, and SIX MANSIONS. When he got caught, there were 47 SEPARATE BANK ACCOUNTS in Jim’s name.
In 1989, The jury found him guilty on 24 counts , and received a 45 year sentence along with 500 thousand dollars fine .
In 1994, Jim was paroled to a halfway house run by the SALVATION ARMY in Asheville, NC.
IN June 2003, JIM RETURNS TO THE TELEVANGELISM RACKET, IN THE NEW JIM BAKKER SHOW .
- I do not think that I should say any more, because what came here it give anyone with clear mind to understand the way things work out there. The same all around the world.
It is very interesting to hear someone at the list came to criticize JIM . JIMMY SWAGGART describing him as a CANCER” it gave the impression that Jimmy is good honest man. So, I did go to find out more about him, and what a surprise . Here is my discovery:

JIMMY SWAGGART,
By the mid 80s, had become the world’s richest and most famous. His operation raked in more than 150 million annually. His televised show attract 8 million followers.
- Before going any further, I want to bring what was been written before many centuries about such a people.
Q- 9:34 O you who have believed, indeed many of the scholars and the monks devour the wealth of people unjustly and avert them from the way of GOD. And those who hoard gold and silvers and spend it not in the way of GOD, give them tiding of a painful punishment.

When (Jimmy) confronted by the assembly of God leadership, he had no choice but to confess of his life time addiction to pornography.
In front of the TV camera, he said “I HAVE SINNED AGAINST YOU, MY LORD, AND I WOULD ASK THAT YOUR PRECIOUS BLOOD WOULD WASH AND CLEANSE EVERY STAIN UNTIL IT IS IN THE SEAS OF GOD’S FORGETFULNESS, NEVER TO REMEMBER AGAINST ME”.

On November 10, 2002 Swaggart DENOUNCED THE PROPHET MUHAMMAD AS A “PERVERT” AND “A SEX DEVIANT” .

- Those people who talk bad about the prophet or about the others religion, they are made from the same cloth as Jim and Jimmy.
- Denouncing the prophet and the Qur’an, and the Islam, is no big surprise to me. I been hearing that all my life from all sort of Christian people, educated or not, and I think all that came from the teaching and the preaching of hatred, using the house of God as stage to do the all wrong things,and to attack the others religions, and Jimmy Swaggart good or bad he represent his opinion, and the opinion’s of the rest who follow him. Let us read what Jesus spoke about such a people:
LUKE- 6:41 “Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?.
If my writing will be taken as an attack against the church or the others religion, that is completely wrong, and I did say it before, and I am going to repeated again, that Christianity is a holy religion and it belongs not only to the Christian followers, who really follows Christ words, but to all those who believes that JESUS came through the spirit of GOD, and as for the Muslims religion JESUS is a part of their beliefs: to believe in GOD, “HIS books, HIS MESSENGERS”,
(Abraham , Moses, and Jesus. All of them.) . So we had to be very careful not to mix the religion, which is the teaching of the word of GOD with the religious which is the people, and people sometimes could be bad, wrong and unfair, like Jim And Jimmy.
It hurt me very much to hear from someone as famous as Jimmy who represent many Christians, attacking the prophet Muhammad and in this kind of language and in front of millions of his audience. But it is more bad that to see people blindly believe in such people.
Also it hurt me to read, or to hear and see so many bad things coming from within the churches, and from peoples who represent the churches, and through the many years of their long history.

God bless you.

Name: Panluna • Date: 08/13/07 13:39

A: Hi Sam,

I know about hoaxes and people taking advantage of any situation if they think they can gain from it. With the exception of a couple people close to me I have been hesitant to publicise my supernatural experiences until I posted the ones on this forum.the experiences were subjective and there were no human witnesses--just whatever pets I shared life with at that time.And if you noticed I haven't included all the details on the episodes.There is more to the Polterguiest and candle incident.When I feel comfortable with the public's scrutiny I might write a book that includes my experiences.It will more than likely be a novel.I'm still researching and I'm not really ready to write my book yet.

If you have any questions in regards to dealing with ghosts or haunted dwellings I found a real simple remedy that seems to work.LILAC calms the spirits.If you plant a lilac bush near a window so that the scent blows inside or light a lilac scented candle and lilac incense or spray the house with Lilac scented spray or Lilac perfume or even bring a bouquet in,believe me it works.I read it in an article about Ozark Folklore.Lilacs originally came from Persia and were brought by the settlers to the New World.I wish I knew about this when I lived in the haunted house in California.

Name: roy • Date: 08/15/07 14:00

A: Hi Panluna,

Thanks for the courage and sincerity sharing your supernatural experience with us.

There are such matters in human life and nature however we are not encouraged to search fort he ingredient of them, the making of them and not given much information according to our belief system. Spirit & Brain of any animal or human is the least disclosed and ixplored area of medicin science. It comply with the verse of Quran below related to spirit, parapsychology,

17:85 They will ask thee concerning the Spirit. Say: The Spirit is by command of my Lord, and of knowledge ye have been vouchsafed but little.

There are Jinn,Ghosts, in the universe. They are subject to some rules as human beings. They are supposed to obey human at the beginning of creation. However Evil who is one of jinns has decided adversary, and made his disobedience to God.

Quran says:
15:27 And the Jinn did We create aforetime of essential fire.
55:15 15- And He created Jinns from fire free of smoke:
51:56 I created the jinn and humankind only that they might worship Me.
18:50- Behold we said to the angels, bow down to Adam they bowed down except Iblis. He was one of the Jinns, and he broke the command of his Lord. Will ye than take him and his progeny as protectors rather than me? and they are enemies to you evil would be the exchange for the wrongdoers

Solomon had ruled Jinn, He was given extraordinary power unforeseen talent before no mankind has enjoyed.
27:17- And before Solomon were marshalled his hosts, of Jinns and men and birds, and they were all kept in order and ranks.
34:12 And unto Solomon (We gave) the wind, whereof the morning course was a month's journey and the evening course a month's journey, and We caused the fount of copper to gush forth for him, and (We gave him) certain of the jinn who worked before him by permission of his Lord. And such of them as deviated from Our command, them We caused to taste the punishment of flaming fire.
27:39- Said an Ifrit, of the Jinns: I will bring it to thee before thou rise from thy council: indeed I have full strength for the purpose, and may be trusted.

Among with all the skills of Jinn which is not given to human, there is no exceptional power of Jinn to foretell future. They are as weak as mere creatures of God and has no power over mankind. The example below shows the weakness of Jinns.

34:14 And when We decreed death for him, nothing showed his death to them save a creeping creature of the earth which gnawed away his staff. And when he fell the jinn saw clearly how, if they had known the unseen, they would not have continued in despised toil.

Jinns may distract human from correct way of worshipping to God.

34:41 They will say: Be Thou glorified. Thou art our Protector from them! Nay, but they worshipped the jinn; most of them were believers in them.
37:158 And they imagine kinship between Him and the jinn, whereas the jinn know well that they will be brought before (Him).
41:29 And those who disbelieve will say: Our Lord! Show us these who beguiled us of the jinn and humankind. We will place them underneath our feet that they may be among the nethermost.
72:6- True, there were persons among mankind who took shelter with persons among the Jinns, but they increased them in folly.

Jinns may be space bound elements, they may reside in galaxies;

72:8 And (the Jinn who had listened to the Qur'an said): We had sought the heaven but had found it filled with strong warders and meteors.
Of the jinn and of mankind.

Finally İslam reccommend to pray God from the evildoings of Jinn as the following worship prayer.:

114:1-6- Say: I seek refuge in the Lord of mankind,The King of mankind,The God of mankind,From the evil of the sneaking whisperer, Who whispereth in the hearts of mankind, Among [or from] Jinns and among [or from] Men.

May God lead you the right direction

Name: Panluna • Date: 08/15/07 14:15

A: Roy,
Thank you.Would you equate Jinns to the condemned fallen angels like Lucifer and company.I read The Tales Of The Arabians Nights many years ago and the one I remember has to do with a genie in a bottle.Are the jinns the same thing?

I have more than a dozen "tales" of the supernatural-- based on my actual encounters..I hope to get started on my book soon.

Name: sam • Date: 08/15/07 14:42

A: Hi Panluna,

First, I want you to know that I do believe in the good spirits (souls) and I see them as a sort of messengers that bring messages to only those who are blessed, sometimes by vision and in most cases by dreams [the dream of Abraham].

Second, I did bring few clear questions, not as doubting your visions,but to clear some importand points which sometimes can be confusing to those who witness a vision. for example: you saw a monk and you are not sure who is really is, maybe "St Padre Pio" maybe someone else. Your friend said, "spirit from your ancestral", while she does not knew them, and that will leave things unclear, and cannot be accepted, like the vision of Paul.
Third, You did not answer my main question, "---- When you said she spoke to me, that means, she said something TO YOU that you did understand (telepathicly or not), Can you tell what She said?, or it was like a bumble?.
A- I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR YOUR ANSWER. TO HEAR ALL THE WORDS THAT MARY SPOKE. Vision without message is no vision.
B- You were confused about the identity of the monk, so how can you be sure that you really saw Mary?.
C- LILAC calms the spirits, who did discover this fact, please let me know. In my first years in school I use to take a bunch of lilac to give to my teacher. There was a lot of it growing in the garden beside the river, I was born and lived in the town of Baalbeck for 15 years before I went into my long journey.

If you like to see pictures of my town, go to [www.habbib.com] There are around 500 picture from LEBANON sorted in many pages, and my town BAALBECK is in the pages 70 &71, also you can get more picture about the town and about it is famous international festival , by searching {baalbeck lebanon} or {baalbeck lebanon-international festival}.
Here a sample:
from the page [THE FESTIVAL]
The Baalbeck International Festival is the oldest and most prestigious event in the Middle East. The Festival is an annual event which takes place in the Roman Acropolis during the two months of July and August each year.
The Baalbeck Festival has evolved into a major world cultural event celebrating classical music, dance, theatre, opera, and jazz as well as modern world music from all continents. The most important artists in their fields appear on our stages.
Baalbeck "Heliopolis", the City of the Sun, is considered one of the wonders of the ancient world.
The temples in Baalbeck are not only the largest Roman temples ever built, but also among the best preserved all over the world.
Great performances of symphonic orchestras, of dance, of pop concerts, of folkloric musical, ...are held on the steps of the temples of Jupiter and Bacchus for 2000 to 4,500 spectators, whereas, jazz , theatre and chamber music take place in the interior of the Temple of Bacchus where about 700 spectators can be seated to enjoy the ideal accoustic environment.

from the page [VENUES]
This year performances will take place in the temple of Bacchus for 700 spectators and between the temples of Bacchus & Jupiter with 2000 to 4500 spectators.
There is an arial view for the area (the temples), our house and garden was situated on the left top corner of this picture. Our house was in between Bacchus and Venus temples and there was no other houses around us.

Later on I will bring my dreams which comes to be true.

God bless you.

Name: Panluna • Date: 08/15/07 18:25

A: Hi Sam,
The next time the monk visits I'll ask him his name then I'll get to the bottom of the matter.When I write about it in my book I will call his chapter Interview With a Ghost Monk.I know my vision conflicts with what my psychic friend saw but we have many ancestral spirits and she may have seen a different one.She mentioned a Cathar--possible Le Bon Hommes.The monk I see wears a traditional monk's robe but he hasn't learned to colorize himself or solidify so he appears as a transparent ghost dressed in a white robe but I can make out the style of the robe.And he carries something that looks like a scroll in his hands.
I'll be honest with you--the first two times I saw Mary I did not recognise who she IS. I was a toddler in 1954 and my mother who was very pregnant lost sight of me as I was letting off steam running around Central Park.I joined a group of children playing near a fountain with an Angel and one of the many exitways to a very busy New York City street.When I relised I was lost I started to cry hysterically.Then somehow remembering that this was the same entry way we came into the park I started to run out towards my parents' restaurant.All the suddenly a woman in a long white dress with a blue shawl or scarf stood in front me and kept me rooted to the ground.I looked at her face and I'll never forget her.She was the same vision to appear to me two other times in my life.As I was standing right at the curb with busy New York City traffic speeding by my mother found me with the help of a patrol man and she had my older brother in tow.As they approched me the Lady in White slowly vanished and I felt my mother grab me and pick me up. I don't think they saw her or they would have crossed themselves.If Mary had not appeared and kept me from crossing the street I wouldn't be here today.I can remember alot of things that happened to me when I was a kid.There's a Jersey Devil incident,too.
The second time she appeared to me was on my birthday .I had to go to work at the hotel and since it was the middle of the week I had hoped to get done with work early so that i could go home and have the day off.For some reason I was very moody and sensitive that day.If I had known how the day would end I might have been more elated.I got my list of rooms from the office that needed be done and there was one with a DO NOT DISTURB sign on it.We had a rule if that sign is on the door of a guest room we (maids)don't go in.I finished all of my other rooms and went to clean that one.Well the sign was still on the door so I went to the office and was given orders to clean the two public bathrooms downstairs,the front hallway and the dinningroom and the guest living room.I'm surprised they didn't have me clean the owner's cottage that day.The other maid had an emergency phone call and she left early.By the time I got finshed with all of that it was around 4:30p.m.I went upstairs to that last room and the door was open and the room had been unoccupied that previous night.It was a prank played by my co-workers but I didn't think it was funny.So much for getting off early.I heard them laughing about it as I left.
On my way home which I walked about a mile--I wish I had that kind of energy today- I found a twenty dollar bill lying on the ground.Since there was no way to indentify the person who lost it I decided to treat myself to a birthday dinner and beer at my favorite restaurant after I got home and got changed.When I arrived at the place after I placed my order and paid for it in advance I heard someone call my name and motioned me to come to their table.Figuring I was invited to join them I sat down and they all got up at the same time laughing and leaving me stuck with their 300-something dollar restaurant and bar tab.The owner who had gotten in after they left insisted that I pay the tab and I gave him the name of one them so he can call his parents.I had refused to pay it and I was still waiting for my dinner which I never got that night and I had to pay for mine in advance and I wasn't reimbursed either..One of the parents showed up pushed me into a wall and yelled some very derogatory words at me and I started to feel very crushed.The owner told me to leave and not come back--I haven't step foot in that place for over 35 years.
i walked the mile and a half home and was greeted by my dog and two cats.As I was sitting on the edge of the bed feeling sorry for myself and the lousy birthday I had and contemplated the nastiness of some people,a glow of light flashed in my living room and my pets moved away from me and settled at the opposite wall by the bed.My dog wagged her tail and my cats started purring when she stood in front of me and made me lift my head to look at her and then she put her hand on my shoulder.I had the most beautiful dream in the most heavenly place and her words were comforting and reassuring.She said to me that my life would be fullfilling and I would find my path to follow and that I don't have to let people like that belittle me to a point of suicide.They were just not worth knowing and they are not part of my life anyway.When I awoke in the morning everything was so crystaline and my feelings were pure,peaceful and filled with hope for a brighter future. I was given a feeling of self-worth and a positive attitude which has gotten me through many diffucult times.I am stronger because of her spiritual gift and visit.I found myself tucked in bed the same way parents would do when we tuck our children into bed.There is no way I could have tucked myself in like that.My critters acted like nothing ever happened.I could still feel her kiss on my forehead for that whole day.That is the only time she appeared very solid.I was going to join a convent after I told a friend of mine who noticed the glow in me but she talked me out of.I did not have a religious background. At that time I still had no idea who the vision was.I thought she was an Angel.If you pray to her about children she will answer...
The third time she visited me was when we were stationed in Hawaii.By that time I knew her name as I had finally seen an image of her in a Christian bookstore at Ala Moana Mall.There was something very suspicious going on in our nieghborhood one night around two a.m. and I was going to step outside with my collie dog to check it out and just as I got up I felt myself being pushed back into the bed and I felt frozen--I couldn't move .Mary appeared in a corner of the room and told me not to move and that I was in great danger..If I had steped outside with my dog I wouldn't be here now.There was robbery and an abduction which was investigated .The danger to me would have been that there was no place for me to hide while trying to observe those nocturnal,criminal activities.And my dog would have been shot or even me.Actually I was really scared and so were my kids.There had been an escaped convict from the state prison not too far from where we lived.I don't have any idea of what the outcome was on this incident.I thanked Mary and God with a prayer and I have helped childrens' charities when I'm able to.As you can read in my post these were personal visits that saved me.I hope it answers your questions.

Name: Panluna • Date: 08/15/07 18:35

A: I don't remember where I read about the Lilac solution to haunted houses. If I find it again I will post it.I think it was in something about herbal remedies.

Name: roy • Date: 08/15/07 19:47

A: Panluna,
Jinns are more than one Satan or Lucifer, they are existing creatures like human beings. They are not consist of satan and his friends. They are made of fire. They are different than angels. I dont know what they ment for but Prophet Mohammed has read them Quran in a mosque called Jinn Mescid in Makkah. As Muslim believes Angels are only allowed to do the things that is given order to them. Jinns and humans has free will power to do something else, but also under the program that is drawn, written for them by God Almighty.

Genie and Jinn are same names. Although Genie in the bottle is only a fairy tale of arabic origin, it would have been mistake to interfere it to devine stories. Genie in the bottle is regarded in muslim world for children entertainment only, as well as the rest of the wold. Like Ali Baba and forty companion.

Gene= Genie= Jinn? These could be same origin?

I also want to point out the resemblence in sounds of Genes, and Jinns = Genie which passes at the same verses of Qoran:

6: 109-112 They swear their strongest oaths by Allah, that if a (special) sign came to them, by it they would believe. Say: certainly (all) Signs are in the power of go: but what will make you (Muslims) realize that (even) if (special) Signs came, they will not believe. We (too) shall turn to (confusion) their hearts and their eyes, even as they refused to believe in this in the first instance: we shall leave them in their trespasses, to wander in distraction. And though we should send down the angels unto them, and the dead should speak unto them, and we should gather agaınst them all thıngs ın array, they would not belıeve unless allah so wılled. Howbeit, most of them are ıgnorant. Likewise did we make for every Messenger an enemy- evil ones among men and JİNNS, inspiring each other with flowery discourses by way of deception. If thy Lord had so planned, they would not have done it: so leave them and their inventions alone.

It is exactly same story told in islamic resources that Satan has been condemned by God because of his pride to bow down and obey to humankind. He was dismissed from heaven, and was given term until dooms day.

Wikipedia;
Lucifer
In modern and late Medieval Christian thought, Lucifer is usually a fallen angel identified as Satan, the embodiment of evil and enemy of God. In Christian literature and legend, Lucifer is generally considered to have been a prominent archangel in heaven (although some sources (Book of Ezekiel 28:14) say he was a cherub or a seraph), who had been motivated by pride to lead a revolution against God, in "The War of Heaven". When the rebellion failed, Lucifer was cast out of heaven, along with a third of the heavenly host, and came to reside in the world.

Good to hear you have an idea of book, but please stick on the strong God belief, as guiding rope then try to explore the unknown world of Jinns. A humble friend's tip

Name: Panluna • Date: 08/16/07 0:36

A: Roy,

Thank you I will keep your advice in mind.

Name: sam • Date: 08/17/07 23:45

A: Dear Panluna,

Your dreams and visions are yours, and you can believe in them the way you like, and even write them in a book, and while some will accept them as they accept anything because they are attached to their faith [MARY], but let me tell you, there will be many others who will analyze them word by word, and questions everything, even if they are believing in the same faith as you are. We are in the 21st century, never forget that.
I say it before, and I will say it now, that I am a believer in the spirits and the spiritual contacts, and I do believe that messages are real things between two good spirit from people who are alive or dead. But that all comes in sort of dreams [as Abraham dream] and the spirit the do not come in any other way. Only God’s angels are sent down with messages to whom God wishes and they can come in a human form [the angel who came to Abraham, Hagar or Mary].
I so many dreams, but the spirits were from both, live or dead people that I knew, and the message that I received all came to happen shortly after.

The following is my analysis for you vision, and they are different from your interpretation. When you bring your book you will be faced by the same. You should understand that I am not saying that you did not see a vision, and you are blessed by God because you suffer a lot but your faith in Him never been shaken. God bless you.

the first two times I saw Mary I did not recognize who she IS
1- I was a toddler in 1954
I joined a group of children {playing near a fountain with an Angel}
Angels do not go around as they wish, and when they appear, they appear in a human form, so did you know they are angels?. Do they have wings as been drawn by the Christian artists?. There are any black angels or they are only white with blue eyes?
“I relised I was lost I started to cry hysterically. All the suddenly a woman in a long white dress with a blue shawl or scarf stood in front me and kept me rooted to the ground.
---- That is the same picture of Mary that I saw many time, it is everywhere. That picture is stuck in your mind when you are little child.
{I looked at her face and I'll never forget her. She was the same vision to appear to me two other times in my life.}
---- The thing that you will never forget is what happen to when you started to “cry hysterically”.

2- The second time she appeared to me was on my birthday .I had to go to work at the hotel [here you are grown up woman]
a glow of light flashed in my living room, she stood in front of me and made me lift my head to look at her and then she put her hand on my shoulder, I had the most{ beautiful dream} in the most heavenly place and her words were comforting and reassuring.She said to me that my life would be fullfilling and I would find my path to follow and that I don't have to let people like that belittle me to a point of suicide.
-----[ after a great distress on that day and the many day/years before until you came to the point of suicide. You slept and saw a dream, you saw a woman and not Mary, no one knows how Mary looks like, the picture that you see are an artist work and from his imagination]
When {I awoke in the morning} everything was so crystaline and my feelings were pure,peaceful

---- After good night sleep most people feel the same.
That is the only time she appeared very solid
------ [most dreams are fuzzy, and sometimes dream brings unknown people and unknown places, and pictures beyond any imagination, and also strange thing, like one seeing himself flying, sometimes dreams it seems to disappear leaving a short flashes, so we try to figure them up while we awake. Sometimes the dream can be strong and powerful, and feel like the real thing, and they will stay in our memory for a very long time, and those are very few, and those hold mysteries and sometimes they might be carrying messages to us, either from our inner self [our body needs], or from the outside [through contact by the spirits].
I was going to join a convent after I told a friend of mine who noticed the glow in me but she talked me out of.{I DID NOT HAVE A RELGIOUS BACKGROUND}. At that time I still had no idea who the vision was.{I THOUGHT SHE WAS AN ANGEL} .
{IF YOU PRAY TO HER....SHE WILL ANSWER.}
----- How can that be!!!, no religion background, and you know about the angels, and you know about the prayer to Mary!!!.

3- The third time she visited me was when we were stationed in Hawaii.{BY THAT TIME I KNEW HER NAME !!!......AS I HAD FINALLY SEEN AN IMAGE OF HER IN A CHRISTIAN BOOKSTORE !!!.}
— She spoke with you (remember this was the third vision) and she did not mention her name, but you figure out that she is Mary because “YOU SAW HER PICTURE FOR THE FIRST TIME IN A BOOK STORE IN -HAWAII- !!!, AND AT THAT TIME YOU KNEW HER NAME!!!”
For the first time!!!!!!!, and you are a grown up woman and have children, and you claim that you did not see a picture for Mary, and you live in America, I will believe that if you live in a cave by yourself and there is nobody around, and no books or TV’s etc., or if you live in the jungle in Borneo by yourself surrounded by apes, because today the people all around the world heard about Jesus and His mother Mary and most of them seen their colorful pictures, even the Muslim children, and the aboriginals down under. From the time I was five until now I saw thousand of pictures for Mary and Jesus, everyone show Him/Her different, ones white skin and blond with blue eyes as if He/She European, another with dark skin and hair and brown eyes as if He/She from the middle east, another in black skin and hair and dark eyes like the African, the face never look the same in any picture except if it was coming from the same print. Also I saw the famous picture of God, which is on the ceiling of a cathedral in Rome!!!.
You tell me, Did anyone of the follower of Jesus and Mary drew a picture, or shaped a statue in their image for them while they alive. So, who knows what they look like?. Then they use those images for praying. Is that a sort if creating idols?, and that is against the commandment of God.
{IF YOU PRAY TO HER....SHE WILL ANSWER.}
Do you believe in that, in which book that thing was written?. Jesus did not pray to His mother, but He only pray to His God, our God.

“one night around two a.m.
and I was going to step outside with my collie dog to check it out.”
A---- Here,[ the picture that I see from your words] that you are dressed up and the dog beside you, and you are “ GOING TO STEP OUTSIDE”. .......WHILE YOU ARE STILL IN BED!.

“and just as I got up I felt myself being pushed back into the bed and I felt frozen--I couldn't move .”
....... [NIGHTMARE]
B---- Here, [the picture that I see from your words] that you are still in the bed “JUST AS I GOT UP”, you are trying to get up , but you cannot, you were frozen and could not move. [THAT MEANS YOU ARE STILL IN THE BED]

“Mary appeared in a corner of the room and told me not to move and that I was in great danger”

C---- Here [as I see it in your story] Mary appeared in the corner of the room while you are still in bed, frozen and you could not move (B). And that was after you walk to the door and just getting to step out (A).
I could not figure out how such a thing could ever happen, that is something really scary.

Since you never mentioned any body charring with you this vision, that mean you were alone (no husband with you) and (the kids in another room).

Actually I was really scared AND SO WERE MY KIDS.
D---- Here [I see the real picture], the vision happen AT NIGHT AROUND TWO AM, that is after midnight, you are alone frozen in bed, and the kids in another room in deep sleep, seeing their own beautiful dreams , and you were really scared that is OK. But how can the kids be scared while they are asleep in bed, and they did not see the ghost, or the robbers?

God bless you.

Name: Panluna • Date: 08/18/07 11:49

A: Hi Sam,

It's the wee hours of the morning,The coyotes have been howling and my dog has been restless for the past two hours.I had no idea that you would attempt to analyze my special spiritual moments--maybe it's a good thing I never had them documented or reported them to the Church.There would be no end to the questioning.I'm not a canidate for sainthood.(HAHA--Moi?)

The Angel was a statue in the pool with a fountain nearby.I was a little over two years old when the first appearence happened.I noticed that each time She appeared it was due to extreme distress and danger.I was too young to know who she was at that time.But I remember Her.

My parents were not religious people.We didn't even have a bible in our home and we seldom watched TV with the exception of the evening news.In those days we only had 3 TV stations and The Ed Sullivan Show and Lawrence Show were the weekend entertainment.The only religious instruction I had was in elemantary school when the Lord's Prayer and passages read from the scriptures each day was permitted until some Atheist movement succeeded in getting the daily prayer moment removed from the the public school system in the 1960's.

When She appeared to me the 2nd time (1974 in New York) she remained solid but out of my reach--I wasn't in a trance or dreaming.I was completely awake each time she visited.The strange thing is I couldn't move but I felt a strong scense of peace and comfort in her presence.I wasn't afraid of her.And she spoke to me before she touched me on my shoulder.Then I had the dream of the beautiful garden and the place with many rooms.I was living by myself at that time but I had a small dog and two cats who didn't seem to be afraid of her at all.When the Polterguiest attacked me in the house in California (in1993)my collie dog was really agitated by IT.And he was extremely uncomfortable and kept staring at "Something" but he wouldn't leave my side.I was putting laundry away when I was attacked and I saw it pulling my dog across the living floor just before IT attacked me.None of these encounters were dreams.

Mary is known as the patron saint of children and we can pray to her for help.In my long years of spiritual quests the journey has taught me many valuable lessons and the most important one is to respect the message and the method offered by the teachers and accept and use what I'm comfortable with.Maybe it's a good thing for me that I wasn't raised with a narrow religious view ----at least I can think for myself.

The night in Hawaii when the disturbance occured my kids were in bed asleep.They were attending elemantary school at that time.A couple hours before midnight they had been woken up by the really loud music the neighbors were playing and I let them stay in my bedroom because they couldn't go back to sleep and my room was furthest from the noise.My husband called from one of Pacific islands( he was away on business) and I told him that the neighbors were having a party and the kids were watching TV in our room.The neighbors had woken them up.When the music stopped for awhile they went to sleep.I let them stay in my room for the night.It was around 2a.m. when I got woken up from a sound sleep and the popping and thumping noises started and I heard a scream.My collie was sitting in the doorway of the bedroom growling.Like I said I got up with the intentions of checking it out when I felt a force pushing me back onto the bed and then she appeared with the warning.Fortunately I had locked the apartment up earlier.My kids slept through it.This incident happened in 1991.

The reason I recognised her then was because I saw a picture of her in a Christian bookshop.Up until then I thought she was a Guardian Angel.The Church image is based on discriptions given by people who have been visited by Mary. My parents didn't have any religious pictures,icons or bibles at home and my interest in spiritual studies was ignited by a course I took in high school which covered world religions and cultures and has been a life-long interest and study.I grew up in a poor home but what I didn't have in material possessions was replaced by inner-spiritual wealth and intellectual developement.And I learned respect and did what was expected of me.

When I attended college I took some courses in Psychology and I know what the subconscious mind and dream interpretations can reveal--but let me assure you I was wide awake for all of the many incidents that have colored my life and enriched it.And I know the difference between reality and deciet.I was there for those episodes and I survived them.And that's my stories and I'm sticking with them.

I hope I clarified the gaps and missing angles in my previous posts.All I know is that I was spared and saved by a beautiful Lady Apparition and I'm a better person for it because She gave me the comfort,protection and the spiritual guidance I needed at a time when I was searching for answers and needed a friend.

Name: sam • Date: 08/19/07 0:46

A: Hi Panluna,

Thank you for receiving my question/answer to you about the visions with an open heart, that shows the good quality of a person, and that is what matter most. I do really , and at all the time we been exchanging our thoughts had in my mind a certain good feeling about you, the feeling that we are close to each other even we live thousand mile away, and even we do not agree on some aspects.
I do always wake up early (I think that is normal for the old age, my wife she wake up 10-11am, of course she is much younger). It is the same routine, coffee, open email, then go the forum to read my friends posts. But from time to time I do start the day by going to the “GOOGLE EARTH” to go around the world to visit places that I been there or to discover new one.

This morning I opened google earth, and the beautiful earth appeared (as you see it from space), I do love that very much, and I was thinking about where to go. Then you came to my mind, and I remember that you mentioned that you live in “SEATTLE-WASHINGTON”, so I did bring the earth closer until I came to the center of the city, then I did a tour all around, there is marks for important places and even shows camera pictures.
After spending an hour in my tour I t come to me that I should write a list of some place to tell you about, when I go to the forums.
There are many pictures, and here some: Seattle space needle.... Seattle Municipal tower.... Colombia tower...Moody Seattle....Pionee Square park (first&Yesler)....Smith tower...Mt. Rainer (from Seattle harbor)...
I do not know if you have this program or not, it is free and it is great, because it will bring you the whole world to see, as if you been there, you can see things and in color as if you are flying over the top of the buildings.

Panluna, You said,” “I grew up in a poor home but what I didn't have in material possessions was replaced by inner-spiritual wealth and intellectual development”.
---- I did grow up in very rich home, and my family earned the love and the respect of everyone in the town, from sunni , shiite and Christians, not because they are rich but because they served the town and the people, they helped and looked after the poor, and the door of the house was always open, and they were the choice for the people to solve their problems, the house was like a courthouse sometimes. Badly treated wife will come to my grandfather for help, and so people with their many problems. We had a big garden (2 acres) full of fruit trees, and my grandfather ask me and my brothers to go to the refugee camp and bring children to the garden, and sometimes ask me to count them (maybe 34 or 35 they are all over the trees), he bring toys and sweets for them.
As for my father, He never worked in his life, except looking after us to be raised and educated in the way that God loves (my father was highly educated in chemistry and physics, and he has a LAB room bigger that the lab of the highschool), and looking after the poor people in town, and never miss a prayer, and he spent most of his father wealth repairing those old mosques and furnishing them. And He built a full block of stores (50-60 stores, they still there)and gave it away to be run by the mosque, that their income will be used for many other good things.

When I was a young teenager, I thought what my father doing is wrong, and was fed up to see him spending too much for the others and not for us. And there came that day which I will never forget, when he gave me 5 Lira, and I saw him hour ago giving more to the poor, and I went to complain to my mother, and tearing the paper money and throw it away I front of her, and her reply was, “you tell me if this house is not good enough for you, you tell me if you do not have good clothes and good food and everything you need? , never ever complain, who knows, the time might change and you will be the poor. The money we have is not ours, its God’s money, He give it and He can take it...... The tears comes to my eyes now, when I remember that moment with Mom, she was right, after many years , and the brother and sister went in different road, while all of them had no problem in their life and always have everything, I was the only one ended one day sleeping on the floor and became poor in far away land, thanks God it did not last long, and after that, I tried my best to follow my father steps, and In 1986 we lost our parents, I was away, and I did not see them for 14 years (the reason is the wars and trouble in Lebanon) 1986 his spirit come to me in a dream, and he blessed me, and after that I saw many dream (not from him, but by others) and what I saw happen, so my other personal dream can come through too.

Dear Panluna, Every man (human) on this earth born poor and weak. When man come to this world, comes naked and cannot even walk, and man can spend his life collecting wealth and power, but with all the wealth and power he cannot stop the wheel that will brings his end, and as he was born he is going to die, poor and weak. Poor because he will leave everything behind, and weak because the smallest creature will eat him and turn him to dust.

If we believe in God, then we should believe that there is purpose for us coming to this world, it is not only, born...live...die. We are not born by chance, but by will, the will of God, we are here on His land, to serve it and to take care of it, and that include everything, and we human are part of it, so we should take care of the humanity.

If we believe in God, we should believe in the day of judgment. Here we live few years, and what we collect from wealth and power (material things) will stay here, but there, there where is eternal life in the presence of our Lord, we will arrive there either poor or wealthy, but with different type of wealth and power, , God kept the record of our life on earth, among them are our good work which God asked us to do on earth. God sent to us many messages and many messengers to show us what He wanted from us, and to show us the right way to earn His blessings, and to enter His home (the heaven), and for us there is no escape.

“Then did you think that WE created you uselessly and that to US you would not be returned?.” Q-23:115

If that is not enough to make people believe in HIM, so God swear twice that we are going back to Him.
“I SWEAR by the Day of Resurrection. Ans I SWEAR by the reproaching soul [to the certainty of resurrection].
Does man think that WE will not assemble his bones?. YES, WE ARE ABLE EVEN TO PROPORTION HIS FINGERTIPS.” Q-75:1-4

(There are many parts in man’s body which is more important, but GOD chooses the fingertips, WHY?, because after 1400 years man came to know that every person has his own unique fingertips, and that is how they can catch criminals and bring them to justice, and GOD will bring people back TO JUSTICE and their fingertips will be a witness on them.)

Jesus said,” BUT I TELL YOU THAT EVERY CARELESS WORD THAT PEOPLE SPEAK, THEY SHALL GIVE AN ACCOUNTING FOR IT IN THE DAY OF JUDGMENT....” Mat.-12:36.
(That tells us that a record is kept for everyone, and God will be the Judge, and we ill be judged according to our record in that book.)

“And WE have already sent messengers before you [Muhammad] and assigned to them wives and descendants. And it was not for a messenger to come with a sign [verse]* except by permission of Allah. For every term is a decree.” Q- 13:38

* Jesus said, “... and THE WORD WHICH YOU HEAR IS NOT MINE, BUT THE FATHER’S WHO SENT ME. [GOD WHO SENT ME]. J-14:24

And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it. L-8:21
But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it. L- 11:28

Everything come from Jesus or by the Quran represents the truth, THE WORD OF GOD, WE SHOULD LISTEN TO IT ......HEAR IT.... AND DO IT.

God bless you.

Name: Panluna • Date: 08/19/07 4:09

A: Sam,

Many bright blessings and thank you.

Name: Panluna • Date: 08/20/07 16:03

A: Sam,

I would like to offer you my condolances on the loss of your parents.They seemed like good people who cared about others.My brother appeared to me in a dream the night he died (in 1975)and I was assured that he made it to the Good Place as I saw him again when I had my near-death experience in 1980.And the angel was there walking with me.She also led me back to this life as I wasn't finished living it yet.Make the most of your time on earth and do what good deeds you can.

God Bless you.

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