Name:hotpotato •
Title: Legacy of Christ •
Date posted: 03/05/07 19:56
Q: Ok, so I've seen the show and as a Christian and an individual with a Master's Degree in Social Work and Human Studies I had a few thoughts. Generally, when a great political figure or a celebrity emerges in the public eye many followers begin naming their children after them. They believe that by connecting their children with the celebrity, or in this sense, the deity of Christ, it would link the child to a powerful legacy.
I really wonder if we are merely seeing key members of the Christ story being immortalized by a generation of faithful followers. It is possible that a child or even great-grandchild of a family member could have been buried in that tomb. Sure we might have the real Virgin Mary or even the real Jose, but that doesn't mean that there wasn't a Joseph down the line who named his son Jesus out of tribute.
I am not convinced of any "evidence" here. This is mere speculation based on "dodgy" science. What I mean by dodgy is that it is not conclusive. Just because DNA tests didn't indicate this "Jesus" as the brother or son of "Mary Maramne" doesn't mean that they were married.
I think they should have consulted records of Christian followers after the death of Christ, but then again, many followers ended up dead because of their beliefs. Well, when you take that into consideration, there sure as heck could have been more people buried during that time with the same names.
We need to look at this issue as a cultural matter, instead. But no - we would rather continue to persecute Christians and say that they don't regard science; anything to discredit them. What people should admire about Christians is their determination and belief despite the persecution they have suffered and continue to suffer.
If anything this show is a testament to the strong faith of Jesus' followers and family members.
Name:Red •
Date: 03/05/07 21:20
A: I dont admire anyone that claims persecution because someone else may not believe in what they claim. This is not persecution.
Does the fact that Buddists, pagans, Hindus Muslims, jews or whoever doesnt believe the same way cause you to suffer? If not, why would science?
Name:KRS •
Date: 03/05/07 21:56
A: I think the OP is referring to some of the Ad. Hominum references being used on the other threads, not to whether they accept Christ or not. We have been called backwards, closeminded, etc., all over the place - usually by people that are equally closeminded themselves.
Name:hotpotato •
Date: 03/05/07 22:01
A: Red, my comments in regard to persecution relate back to continued international persecution of Christians on a whole throughout history. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. While I may not believe the same things as Buddhists, pagans, Hindus, Muslims or Jews, I can appreciate their culture, history and importance in personal lives (hence the Master's Degrees). It is not the difference of opinion that prompts persecution. The persecution comes in when individuals immediately target Christians as idiots for not believing certain "scientific" findings or for centuries old conflicts. Science, itself, does not persecute, but rather those individuals that use the science as a means to attack the religious views of others. (I also rarely find any other religion's validity challenged so openly and so heatedly)
Some people may be blind to the persecution that Christians experience simply because the Christian faith is more prominent in the United States. In other countries, including many Muslim Nations (I am not attacking the Muslim faith by referencing it here), Christianity is not welcomed and you could be blacklisted from any employment opportunity. I have a friend with whom this was the case. In some places one's life is at risk. This "scientific" data can then be used against Christian believers in those areas.
If you would really like to know what my philosophy on Christianity in relationship to other religions, please reference "Living Buddha, Living Christ" by Thich Nhat Hanh. It is a highly respected work, often endorsed by Dr. Martin Luther King. It covers issues of persecution and science very well. Happy Reading!
Name:Red •
Date: 03/06/07 0:36
A: Hotpotato...
Fair enough. Look, I know people who pride themselves on having "common sense". They are very practical and efficient when it comes to common sense things like mastering everyday life.
While common sense is a great attribute to have, it's not enough to explain some things. For Example.....
Common sense tells us Man cannot fly. Common sense reasons this by many means. 1- experience
2- Man does not have wings
3 - ECT..........
But WE KNOW that man flys everyday. How can this be? It goes against everything common sense teaches us.
Enter ' Empirical Thinking'. Something that hasn't been happening too long. ( a few hundred years). This way of thinking requires something to make it useful. This something usually comes in the form of knowledge.
When someone makes a claim, science tests it against it's OWN SELF, to the best of empirical tests. Science sometimes finds facts, sometimes it disprooves a postulate.
The problem starts when Information, knowledge, ect becomes shunned by people who do not wish to understand it, seek it, or are afraid of it. This is IGNORANCE. Like you say in your post, everyone has a right to believe as they wish, and that means the right to remain ignorant.
Fundemental religions, regardless of creed, tend to choose the latter when it comes to these deeper issues.
You will never see science use mythology to prove anything, but you will see religion use science when it is in the best intrest of the religion. This is why facts are accepted last (if at all), and the faith is remains priority.
Common sense tells us it's alot easier to just believe than to understand.
Name:hotpotato •
Date: 03/06/07 14:36
A: Red, you have ultimately proven my point!!! You have spoken out in regard to your belief that Christians reject science, thus making them ignorant and persecuting them. The sad thing here is that as I have read more into the actually "scientific" evidence since my last 2 postings, I have found it to be extremely shaky. Rather than reviewing over what was presented in the "film" I looked at documents and what the scientists really said. You will actually find most of these documents on this website (in PDF), but a large chunk of data was removed from the "film."
The producers wish us to belief in several main points in order for the rest of the "Jesus Tomb" theory to stand. Please notice I said theory, not fact.
1) Mariamne a Mara is Mary Magdalene. - Mariamne is Mary/Maria in Greek, while Mara is Master in Hebrew. The problem here comes when you interpret Mara as Greek as well; then you get Martha. The scientific expert noted that the ossuary might have contained remains of two women, Mary and Martha. But yet none of this information was included in the "film" or the FACT that Greek and Hebrew were NEVER used together on any other ossuaries. - Check it out.
2) Jose is Jesus' brother. - According to the same scientist, Jose was most likely the father of Jesus, not the brother. Even if we want to postulate that this may be Jesus' brother another problem arises when we wonder where the other siblings are. The James ossuary has already been refuted since there is HISTORICAL RECORD of James being killed near Temple Mount and buried nearby. He was the only person buried there. - Check out that FACT. We would expect to find the rest of the family, but then there is this straggler, Matthew, who doesn't fit at all. Why doesn't he get his own burial like James???
3) Marriage between Jesus and Mary Magdalene. - Nowhere in the document on this site could you truly extrapolate that this Jesus and Mariamne were husband and wife. No one ran any other testing to find out if Jose or Matthew might have been related to her. She may have been their wife. There are more questions left here than facts!!!
So, my question is "will you be IGNORANT to these FACTS?" Please don't presuppose that all Christians are ignorant. The film's claims are very holey, which is a shame because the previous "Exodus Decoded" was done so well. But then, that "film" argued that pieces of the Bible were true based on scientific facts that are not being openly refuted.
People are so quick to use "scientific facts" to justify their own persecution. You have proven my point!
Name:Red •
Date: 03/07/07 0:47
A: . Do not accuse me of fabricating facts. They are plain in this situation. Your logic is flawed insofar as your claim that my previous point has proven YOUR point. It does not in the least, it only states that some people CHOOSE to be ignorant. By stateing this is no way Persecuting anyone.I did not say "Only christains choose to be ignorant", I said " Fundamental RELIGIONS tend to choose the latter when it comes to these deeper issues". And they do CHOOSE ignorance when science discovers something that may question their RELIGION. It happen all the time.
Another words, If christians CHOOSE to be ignorant, they are not necassarily the only RELIGION to CHOOSE so.
This IS NOT persecuting anyone. It is a FACT, NoT an opinion that some people CHOOSE to be ignorant.
One of the ossuaries was DOCUMENTED at the time of discovery as saying " Jesus, son of Joseph." Therfore, it stands to reason that the Jesus in the box had a father named Joseph. This is simple logic that No one will dispute ,including the christians i know. My 9 yr old can deciper it. It's a simple conclusion that is elementry. O.k . Clear.
Now, if this Jesus (whoever he was) Had a father known as Jose, it would be fair to assume his bone box would say something like "jesus son of jose". It does not say that. It does say "Jesus son of Joseph".
Who is postulating Jose as a Brother of Jesus? It's recorded in the bible. ( unless the bible is wrong about it). Now we have a scientist Claiming "jose was most likey jesus' father ?? How does he decipher that? There is "no problem" with him being Jesus brother because the Bible tells us so, ( unless of course the Bible is mistaken about it).
The straggler Mathew?? Is the cock crowing yet??
No, thereis no proof of a marriage. But usually a FAMILY TOMB has people buried in it from the FAMILY. Dna proof shows this jesus, and mary 'master'has NO blood relation. Why would someone with no blood relation be in a particular family tomb? Is this Jesus in her family tomb, or is she in his? Dna couldnt be performed on other boxes because they got vaccumed.
I ignore your claim to fact of Jose being jesus brother, because quite frankly, that isnt what it say on the Jesus box. I dispute your claim....
Your james scenario dont get it. Why , because being buried "nearby" has nothing to do with this tomb. Nearby means Nothing.I dispute the claim as "fact"
"might have contained two Women". Maybe. It MIGHT have contained 3 or 4 women. All the Bones were buried by jewish authorities . All we have left is the Box and THE INSCRIPTION. Another Claim you call a "fact" i dispute.
The "straggler mathew"?... Have you heard the cock crow yet??
Nowher in the bible does it say that jesus and magdelene were husband and wife. No were does it say they were not. The tomb has this mary 'master' who doe not share blood relation with this Jesus son of Joseph. Now, unless ther were exceptions, in those days, families were buried in tombs together when possible. We dont know the dna relation of the others, but we do know This Jesus was not related to this mary. Now, was this jesus in her family tomb, or was this mary in his family tomb? What evidence ther is , reasons she was in his. Why?
It may be evidence of false claims in the bible that is the root of your persecution complex.
Name:Jack D Viau •
Date: 03/07/07 4:30
A: Some day a reformation in the Christian church may strike deep enough to get back to the unadulterated religious teachings of Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith. You may preach a religion about Jesus, but, perforce, you must live the religion of Jesus. In the enthusiasm of Pentecost, Peter unintentionally inaugurated a new religion, the religion of the risen and glorified Christ. The Apostle Paul later on transformed this new gospel into Christianity, a religion embodying his own theologic views and portraying his own personal experience with the Jesus of the Damascus road. The gospel of the kingdom is founded on the personal religious experience of the Jesus of Galilee; Christianity is founded almost exclusively on the personal religious experience of the Apostle Paul. Almost the whole of the New Testament is devoted, not to the portrayal of the significant and inspiring religious life of Jesus, but to a discussion of Paul's religious experience and to a portrayal of his personal religious convictions. The only notable exceptions to this statement, aside from certain parts of Matthew, Mark, and Luke, are the Book of Hebrews and the Epistle of James. Even Peter, in his writing, only once reverted to the personal religious life of his Master. The New Testament is a superb Christian document, but it is only meagerly Jesusonian.
Name:roy •
Date: 03/07/07 11:11
A: The findings of him may or may not be the real tomb of Jesus( personally I think remote possibility~ because if it was; it should have been known and respected by people for two thousand years).
However the importance of the concept is Christ was not any God. God strongly forbids paradise; anyone who claims Christ or any partner share to His Throne. Hundreds of verses written on this topic only because of people have diverted from the true path. Early Christians have changed the Bible according to power hungry Byzantene ruler & bishops wishes at year around 300 AD. The hypothesis and proof of Christ created fatherless but to be a mere human being is very important to us from this point. Quran persistently renounces the notion of “Trias” and defines it as the only unforgivable sin could be made to Him.
2 AL BAQARAH (The Heifer). 213
3 AL `IMRAN (The Family of `Imran). 19
Each of the primary religions teach the same general rule, but perhaps uses different words and stories to give examples of how to live those virtues.
2 AL BAQARAH (The Heifer). 213 Mankind was one single nation, and Allah sent Messengers with glad tidings and warnings; and with them He sent the Book in truth, to judge between people in matters wherein they differed; but the People of the Book, after the clear Signs came to them, did not differ among themselves, except through selfish contumacy. Allah by His Grace guided the Believers to the Truth, concerning that wherein they differed. For Allah guides whom He will to a path that is straight.
3 AL `IMRAN (The Family of `Imran). 19 The religion before Allah is Islam (submission to his will): nor did the People of the Book dissent therefrom except through envy of each other, after knowledge had come to them. But if any deny the Signs of. Allah, Allah is swift in calling to account.
Name:hotpotato •
Date: 03/07/07 22:51
A: Red,
You can argue about the validity of my statements all you want, but I challenge you to look at the documents.
Your 9 year old may be very intelligent in noting, as everyone else has, that the Jesus box does not say "Jesus son of Jose," but the scientists still believed that he was the father. Check out the document that the researchers presented to the filmmakers and they posted on the Discovery site. If you want to argue that their postulations are incorrect then the information that this entire film was based on are wrong.... thus this argument is over because as other scientists concluded in 1980 and again in 1996 - there is nothing significant here.
Here is a link to the scientist's review of the 10 ossuaries. It includes the information I referenced on Jose and Mary:
Yo-u- ignore my points in regard to the Greek never being listed along other languages on any other ossuaries ever found. Even the researchers stated that there were several remains found inside of some of the boxes. Taking that information into account Mary and Martha in one box makes a whole lot of sense.
What I meant by the "straggler Matthew" is that he was never once referenced as an immediate family member. You ignored my points regarding the absence of other family members.
You make statements questioning why Mary would be in a family tomb with Jesus if they weren't husband and wife. Your argument for this hinges on the assumption that this Mary is Mary Magdelene..... the scientists did not believe it was. This Mary could have been married to Jose or Matthew. Her presence proves nothing. It's too bad they couldn't have run DNA on everyone else. Then there might be some significant information to put forth. Currently we just have coincidence, speculation, and more questions.
I just think that you want so badly for this information to be accurate because you personally hold a grudge against Christians. That is apparent in your jabbs regarding Matthew and the cock crowing.
When you read through the REAL scientific information and see through the propaganda that this film presents this conversation may continue. Then I feel you may be a bit more enlightened and less IGNORANT(for currently you seem to want to ignore the FACTS), and you may be a far more worthy scholar to spar with. Then I might be able to practice sparring in preparation for arguing my doctoral thesis. I'm always the multitasker.
Name:Red •
Date: 03/08/07 4:54
A: Christain bashing again....... You challenge me to look at the documents, I challenge you to look at the evidence. The documents are theory, not evidence. What came out of the tomb is evidence.
What you just told me was, if I argued the reasearchers material, and did not see it as correct, then the info the film is based on is faulty and that is the end of the story. You may be putting the cart before the horse here.
Because the film was not based on information from these reaserchers, it was based on what came out of the tomb. It was speculated that this was the family of the biblical Jesus based on what came out of the TOMB. Not a document.
I did not ignore your point about the bones. in short they mean nothing because they do not have them as evidence.
As far as the greek who knows?? it's speculative as to why its that way. the film made that clear.
Mary magdelene had several relatives named Mathew. It was speculated in the film that he was related to her. Here again, the fact he was in the tomb at all made him a relative to someone in there......
I did not assume the marriage of jesus son of Joseph and mary master, I only left the issue with a why? No my argument hinges on the fact that she was in his tomb because jesus had a mother named mary, a father named joseph, and a brother named Jose, and they were all there.
If this mary was married to jose, that rules out the idea of jose being jesus's daddy , dont it?? Look, to postulate This mary being married to jesus, is no more crazy to assume she was married to Jose, or matthew, or....
Her presence proves nothing?? She was some sort of relation to someone , or all in there. but she was not a blood relation to Jesus.
I know this is a Very sensitive find and alot of people are confused. It's not a case of me "wanting this real bad to be true" because quite frankly it doesnt suprise anyone that realizes people are buried when the die.
Name:lightwoman •
Date: 03/08/07 20:19
A: Hotpotato, you raise a valid and interesting point on first thought, however, I will quote from Dr. Tabor's blog (http://jesusdynasty.com/blog/) why this doesn't add up:
"The Talpiot tomb, is, after all, by definition, “a Jesus family tomb.” The question is, which Jesus? And Jesus of Nazareth did die, and was buried, and his flesh did decompose and his bones were left. I do not think it likely, as some have argued, that the Jesus/James movement would have discarded their leader in a common grave. It just does not fit anything we know of messianic apocalyptic groups and the way they revere their Rebbe/Master, and in this case, their Messiah. The supposition seems to be that this Yeshua bar Yehosef, the only one ever found in a controlled archaeological context, could not possibly be the Jesus we know and the sooner we can show it the better. No matter how much one plays with statistical theory just looking through the catalogue of 897 ossuaries in Rahmani, and noticing the clusters of names, in tomb after tomb, one realizes the Talpiot combination of names as related to what we know of the Jesus family, does indeed stand out."
What he's saying here is that there was no other similar cluster of names from the catalog of 897 ossuaries. Not one similar. So the theory that a later family of Jesus' followers all named their family members after Jesus' family in his honor doesn't hold up. It doesn't mean it's not possible, but it's not in the evidence. So no matter what you might think of Dr. Tabor, scientifically, he makes a very valid point which can't be ignored.
I think all the hooplah (especially from evangelical, fundamentalist Christians) over this discovery is based on fear - fear that the long-held belief in a physical resurrection and ascension will be proven untrue. It's scary and unsettling to feel that perhaps the rug is being pulled out from under your feet! But it's okay, really, do not fear!!
If that turns out to be the case, I don't believe that means one has to abandon one's religion as a lie. (And this book/film are not attacks on Christianity - that is only a defensive perception coming from that fear!) On the contrary, this presents a huge oportunity for spiritual growth! It only means one's comprehension of reality was maybe limited to the physical realm, based on human (not spiritual) 3D perceptions. The idea of expanding one's consciousness into new and unfamiliar realms beyond the physical can be scary - especially if we've been conditioned (as a culture for centuries!) to believe that anything different from what we have been taught is evil or "from Satan." (IMO, Satan is a metaphor for the human ego - and to blame an entity outside oneself is a means to project and avoid responsibility for one's own actions or reality. Evil is a perception/judgment; G_d/Source/All That Is contains ALL, which includes both the light and the dark, so how can the dark be evil if Source/All That Is created it? "Evil" as we humans judge it, serves a purpose in duality - perhaps to spur us on to grow spiritually beyond it and comprehend ONEness/unity rather than duality????)
Expanding consciousness to embrace new realms beyond 3-dimensions - i.e., the Christ-consciousness, what Yeshua did - is unfamiliar and frightening only to the physical brain/being. However it's very familiar to your eternal Spirit (which existed before and will exist after your current physical incarnation - if Spirit is eternal into the future, after death, why isn't it eternal into the past, i.e., before birth??? Lots to contemplate, huh?), but too often one is not completely trusting of Spirit to guide one safely into that unfamiliar territory. Unfamiliar or new doesn't have equate with bad or scary or "evil"; on the contrary it can turn out to be vast and glorious, beyond words, much more than the human brain can ever imagine. Yeshua challenged us to trust Spirit to take us to higher realms and experience them - the Kingdom is here, now, within you - while we dwell in our physical bodies on 3D earth.
If you fear, you're coming from the defensive human ego/lower self. To be a true Christian is to dwell in Christ-consciousness everyday, with Love, Light and compassion/honor for all, where there is no room for fear/ego/lower self. Step out of fear/ego/lower self into the Light of Christ-consciousness - expand your consciousness beyond the physical - and grow in Spirit every day!
Blessings, Love and Light!
Name:hotpotato •
Date: 03/08/07 23:16
A: Lightwoman,
I have no fear that there may be some validity to this find, because there is nothing significant to find.
I have read Dr. Tabor's blog on the matter. I have however found a really great website with many Theologians, Scientists and Statisticians that provide comments and argue against and for the "film's theory." Dr. Ben Witherington's comments as well as those of Jay and Philip (Both Statisticians) and DocMichael (a scientist), and Dr. Tabor has even found it such a significant site that he has engaged in the debate as well. Look through it. The Calculations some of these experts have put together really do wipe out the conclusions of Dr. Tabor as being scientifically insignificant findings.
A: Hotpotato,
Ben Witherington is hardly an unbiased expert - he's as evangelical and fundamentalist as they come, and he's beating the evangelical drum - he's an apologeticist. For others who don't know who he is, here's his bio/rap sheet from his own website:
"Bible scholar Ben Witherington III is Professor of New Testament Interpretation at Asbury Theological Seminary in Wilmore, Kentucky. A graduate of UNC, Chapel Hill, he went on to receive the M.Div. degree from Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary and a Ph.D. from the University of Durham in England. He is now considered one of the top evangelical scholars in the world, and is an elected member of the prestigious SNTS, a society dedicated to New Testament studies.
Witherington has also taught at Ashland Theological Seminary, Vanderbilt University, Duke Divinity School and Gordon-Conwell. A popular lecturer, Witherington has presented seminars for churches, colleges and biblical meetings not only in the United States but also in England, Estonia, Russia, Europe, South Africa, Zimbabwe and Australia. He has also led tours to Italy, Greece, Turkey, Israel, Jordan, and Egypt.
Witherington has written over thirty books, including The Jesus Quest and The Paul Quest, both of which were selected as top biblical studies works by Christianity Today. He also writes for many church and scholarly publications, and is a frequent contributor to the Beliefnet website. "
Knowing scripture inside out doesn't prove or disprove anything. It's like preaching to the choir.
Dr, Tabor said he's coming out with his own document regarding this discovery, which he's been working on for three years.
My question is why Christians are so upset and defensive - fearful? Why the rush to debunk what is not an attack, but just bringing to light a significant discovery which had been forgotten - not unlike unsolved crime cases that get forgotten and dusty until someone rediscovers it dusts it off and ultimately solves the crime. Let's "solve the crime" and get to the Truth, whatever it may be, so be it, amen.
I'm not looking for an argument, I don't care whether this turns out to be the real tomb of Jesus or not. I know what I believe, and whatever the evidence proves or does not prove really doesn't matter to me. But I am curious, and open to anything! I just hope this whole thing, especially if it does turn out to be true, expands people's consciousness even a little to embrace possibilities beyond just a physical resurrection and ascension.
I believe the apostles misunderstood what they saw 2000 years ago - that Jesus' transfigured, glorified "body" was not his physical flesh and bones body, but an energetic light-body (perhaps not 3D; heck, Heaven is not 3D!) manifested to appear and even feel like flesh in order that they could recognize him and know he wasn't just a ghost or hallucination. How do you put that kind of extra-dimensional comprehension into the limited, non-scientific verbiage of ancient Judeah? I consider myself a Christian (not a fundamentalist) and I'm open to all the wonderful possibilities this once-forgotten, perhaps highly significant discovery offers - higher consciousness and spiritual growth for all humanity!
Name:hotpotato •
Date: 03/09/07 3:15
A: Lightwoman,
I must admit that I did enjoy Witherington's information, but you neglected the other postings by less Religiously-tinged experts. I find the fact that you want to ignore all of that information rather interesting.
You may want to argue against certain fundamental Christians, but that does not mean that every perspective that they have is of a fundamental nature. In fact, many are still considered experts and could share a lot of information about who Jesus was historically. Historical record is important when determining if certain findings are actually significant so don't be so quickly dismissive.
I am not a fundamentalist, but if you really paid attention to what Witherington put forth you would have noticed that he was presenting a lot historical record rather than biblical conjecture. I challenge you to read what everyone else had to say on the Statistical equations. I find it very interesting that shortly after several Statisticians presented their information he dropped out of the debate and refused to even address the mathematical challenges even on his own blog.
My thought is if his math really held weight, he would have responded. Should we go with the old addage, "Silence means agreement?"
Name:roy •
Date: 03/11/07 13:28
A: Why should God be so complex not to be understood by common man? Does He address only to the scholars? If so why He held the common responsible what He says and forbids? Is He so cruel to punish those from which reasons that common people has no clue to understand?
Islam has brought the most clear understanding of God and definition of Christ for whom who wants to find out or whom God wants to reveal and let him be.
Saying God is three in one context but, One made up of three, no one can realise what is going on… How is three agree on ruling on universe that there is no disagreement between them? If God decides to extinct Jesus and Virgin Mary who will stop Him from it? How three in spiritual and matter decided to come together to send somepart of three among those miniscule sized peasants and didnt guess one piece of God will be killed there by torture? Wasnt there any other way to save people from sins rather to sacrifice one piece of God? How was it done before Christ (are they only comunity to be saved as majority of jews also claim as favored nation)? One of gods gave up divine and such sort of things are just fables from the Greek mythology. Is there any thema difference in stories with Zeus who hypothetically lived on Olympos, some other god had stolen fire from him, and such nonsence and complex stories. (Some Greeks gave rebirth a new religion on that belief and ask recognition by parliament in Greece today.)
Please be simple and come to your senses to find real God in your heart with peace. It will calm you down if you found Him. Searching thousands of pages but not spending time on the most referred and read book ~Quran is so big loss for you.
Christian Church claims The gospels, most especially John, indicate that Christ was not taken because the "peasants" (actually the temple guard and probably some Roman soldiers as well) over powered Him, but because He went to his death willingly. “
Guard, soldier ect.. has no difference than peasant comparing with God as former are made up all from human. No matter what is the position of human ~ temple guard or Roman soldiers or even todays atomic powered soldiers may not possibly over power even small evidence of God let alone God himself.
“Going to his death willing” is another made-up story. Too unlogical to be devine. All science, philosophy, antropology, history, logic, nature, biolgy, cosmology, physics, theology (christianity except this incident) strives the essence of existance not extinction, natural selection, wish of living - not dieing.
On the contrary Christ must ask God to live on to save his people by preaching (He lived and won over non believers~Islamic view, otherwise no christians would have been mentioned today~my opinion). Moses, and Abraham has been saved by God with two miracles ( Red sea divide and fire becoming serene.)
If our prophet does something “going to his death willingly” we must wish the same thing as good followers. Why don’t you dare to wish some unlogical thing then?;
We will all go death willingly to save others!!
I only believe the brotherhood to be adhered by man of any race, wealth, religion or sex. Beause they are equal and only be better than other in terms of observing God’s wishes. The religions come from same God although Jewish and Christians refuse to accept it, Islam is saying similar things plus improvement open to scientific evidence and criticism of any sort (except depicting or dishonoring holy figures). Actually encouraging debate.
God does not need peoples recognition of the latest versions of what He says. That’s why He says keep your own faith as Christian or Jew but don’t commit sin of Trinity or false claims against Me or Jesus because I am the only One. He does not accept religions from those who curses Him in that Trias way, and will not forgive those (only sin NOT to be forgiven) .
If the trias is not accepted at Byzantene time Council 300 AD. It would have been less likely to get acceptance by plural gods greek society of that time and would have been difficult to unite them. Imperialism was on the scene that time, not now.
On the other hand if Church didnt defend their position strongly against other religions, there would have been no reason of existence of them and the priests and kings had to give up huge wealth and power over society. The latter religion forbids any devine class, rabbis, or super powered ruler, not to mention some papacy who claim to be the shadow and replica of God on earth! (another form of Imperialism)
I hope it helps the claims of Jesus was a dieable, marryable, child conceive causable and tomb burriable (yet to be proven) human with flesh and blood created by God’s word to Mary.
