Name:KRS •
Title: Miriamne e Mara •
Date posted: 03/09/07 6:37
Q: I was going through the PDF again; the original investigators identified Mara with a common contraction of Martha rather than with the Aramaic title Mara (noting that the slash was a probable eta[assumed in the documentaries development as well], and that it has been found to stand for e kai to introduce a second name). The original identification seems far more likely from this end, since one would expect a Greek name to be followed by a Greek title rather than an Aramaic one (probably h didaskala, if they were willing to play with the word, though if they wanted to remain within the standard lexicon of the day o didaskalos). Given that we already have an ossuary marked with a diminuative, that hardly seems unlikely.
Now at this point, I'm assuming this is another case of trying to make the evidence fit the theory, but I checked the reference on the site to the Miriamne ossuary to find out what their reason was to identify it with the Aramaic title instead. Does anyone have any knowledge of any particular reason why the did not use the expert opinion found in their own document?
Name:chemba •
Date: 03/09/07 7:46
A: ‘Mariamme’ means Mari plus Amma, and ‘amma’ means mother. It is from “Hindu’ belief. Mari means ‘rain’, from an ancient ‘Tamil literature’, - India. In Tamil nadu (Chennai), one of the states of India, there are thousands of temples and routine festivals for ‘Mariamme’. Rain is most important things for drinking water and irrigation. So “Mariamme” means ‘the Goddess of Rain’ or ‘Mother of Rain. No rain, no life. So we can literally say that our mother is ‘Rain’. For producing the procreation, a father is needed.. Who is our Father? Father is ‘Sun’. Our life is in air. We are in air and air is in us. For producing the air, there must be a link between our Father and mother – water and sun.
For more details you can visit, , http://understanding-the-life.blogspot.com/ and many sub titles in it.
Name:BlessedChildofGod333 •
Date: 03/09/07 11:21
A: OKAY CHEMBA.... DUDE WHATEVER...
THIS SPELLING YOU HAVE GOING ON IS BULL.
THE OSSUARY OF MARY MAGDALENE IS
Mariamene e Mara” – “Mariamne, also called Master”
MARIAMENE E MARA
IT IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THE N
MARIAME N E is a reported name for
MARA is MASTER........
Name:KRS •
Date: 03/09/07 20:56
A: blessed, whatever, thats off on two points. First the question is why did they go with this rather than the findings of the original report on the ossuary, I can't find any good reason for it.
Second, Mariamne is the name itself, not Mariam; its an uncommon Greek name, that basically corresponds to miriam. If this was there reasoning, they are in even bigger trouble, from a Greek perspective.
Name:Mark-Tao •
Date: 03/09/07 21:13
A: Your point is well made, and I do not think that ossuary has to belong to Mary Magdalene. There were two sisters named Mary and Martha who were very close to Jesus. It is an important question why a single name would appear in two different languages, but I think it can still be the tomb of Jesus.
Name:KRS •
Date: 03/10/07 2:32
A: Mark,
I get the feeling that you are as biased in trying to support this piece of junk scholarship, as you accused me of in the other post - somewhat Ironic. (Martha is almost as common as Mary in the NT world, and to include it in the statistical formulation one would still have to prove beforehand that this Martha would have had a significant probability of being in the Lord's tomb). The question is to their methodology, or lack there of.
Name:roy •
Date: 03/10/07 13:34
A: KRS "piece of junk scholarship" accusation does not suit your high intellectıual portrait you want to draw in this forums. Mentioning "Lord's tomb" Have you thought of why a Lord= God could probably have been able to killed by poor peaseants and might have a tomb. If God or piece of God have been killed, should nt be the universe collapse within itself? Or shouldnt have God almighty take revenge of comparingly the little atomic sized enemy of God who killled God? Trying to support dogma of bible you are way off the scientific approach, let alone critisizing the producers efforts searching for th etruth.
On the onter hand, personally I dont think it is the real tomb of Jesus, no matter the science supprots them. The reason is if it was, the people should have been respecting the place, turn it into a temple make a lot of publicism about it that no one can hide since 50 AD.
However the discussion of it reveals many false beliefs for Jesus about crusification, and reality. Their job is well done and mission accomplished at that dogmas should be questioned.
Mariamne was the name of the supposedly wife of Christ who was from Magdala, the names day is still celebrated in Greek Orthodox church. Director say, the scientists at 1980 didnt know it means the same thing (Mariamne = Maria Magdalene), untill recently Harvard professors find this fact out.
Name:KRS •
Date: 03/10/07 18:31
A: Junk scholarship is a reference to the poor methodology employed, and has to do with the way they handled the evidence. Also, this time of term is used for studies that are built along these lines.
As to the rest: The source for identifying Mariamne with the Magdalene is not considered historically reliable by the vast majority of Biblical scholars. Nor is the theological argument you've raised very germaine, as they require a very poor working knowledge of the doctrine of the hypostatic union of Christ (wherein Christ had two natures; one divine, one human; of which His body is connected to the human nature) and is one person of the Trinity; it would also requires the assumption that when someone dies, his soul goes out of existence (again facts not in evidence). It also fails to recognize that all the gospels, most especially John, indicate that Christ was not taken because the "peasants" (actually the temple guard and probably some Roman soldiers as well) over powered Him, but because He went to his death willingly.
Name:KRS •
Date: 03/10/07 18:32
A: That isn't germaine to this thread, however. The question here is, does anyone know why they went against the information that they are passing out as to the identification of Mara with the Aramaic "master," inspite of the expert opinion they cite elsewhere.
Name:Mark-Tao •
Date: 03/10/07 20:29
A: KRS,
I think the questions surrounding the name "Miriamne e Mara" are good ones. In the documentary, it was said that this is the ONLY example of both Greek and Aramaic appearing on the same ossuary. That alone makes it something special, and worth learning more about.
I don't need this tomb to be proven in any specific way. I'm defending the right to entertain the very question of a Jesus Tomb. In my bias, Jesus doesn't have to be in the tomb at all. He doesn't have to NOT be in the tomb either.
Name:KRS •
Date: 03/11/07 5:21
A: Mark,
At least you admit you have a bias: thats more than some people I know. (Everyone is biased in someway or another, the question is are we objective with those bias' or not). I'd say you have a right to entertain the notion; man has free will. What they have done with the laws of evidence, however, is inexcusably bad.
I haven't researched or read numbers on the Greek mixed with Aramaic material in ossuaries, (while I read a lot of info that comes from Biblical Archeology, its not strictly my field), but I would question that statement. Considering that we know a lot of Jews had a Greek name as well as an Aramaic name. If they are referring to Greek names with Aramaic words, that would probably be right, but a Greek name with a transliteration of an Aramaic name, that sounds a little odd. Then again, nicknames don't normally appear on ossuaries either.
Incidentally, in Hebrew "Marah" can mean bitter - I suppose that has as much validity as the idea of teacher or master - which is to say, not very much.
Name:vvk •
Date: 03/11/07 9:39
A: Thank You for all informations. The justice will come soon the Jesus and his family, after 2000 years. But when it come to Indian people to get out of Hindu system (cast system.4 diffence classes in the social) it's exist more than 8000 years already.It's very wrong, every one must be equal. Thank again.
Name:roy •
Date: 03/11/07 12:48
A: Dear KRS you say” Basically, the doctrine person of Christ is as complex as the doctrine of the Trinity - neither is as simple as most Jews or Islamicists seem to think. “
Why should God be so complex not to be understood by common man? Does He address only to the scholars? If so why He held the common responsible what He says and forbids? Is He so cruel to punish those from which reasons that common people has no clue to understand?
Islam has brought the most clear understanding of God and definition of Christ for whom who wants to find out or whom God wants to reveal and let him be.
Saying God is three in one context but, One made up of three, no one can realise what is going on… How is three agree on ruling on universe that there is no disagreement between them? If God decides to extinct Jesus and Virgin Marry who will stop Him from it? How three in spiritual and matter decided to come together to send somepart of three among those miniscule sized peasants and didnt guess one piece of God will be killed there by torture? Wasnt there any other way to save people from sins rather to sacrifice one piece of God? How was it done before Christ (are they only comunity to be saved as majority of jews also claim as favored nation)? One of gods gave up divine and such sort of things are just fables from the Greek mythology. Is there any difference with Zeus who hypothetically lived on Olympos, some other god had stolen fire from him, and such nonsence and complex stories. (Some Greeks gave rebirth a new religion on that belief and ask recognition by parliament in greece today.)
Please be simple and come to your senses to find real God in your heart with peace. It will calm you down if you found Him. Searching thousands of pages but not spending time on the most referred and read book ~Quran is so big loss for you.
KRS SAYS: “It also fails to recognize that all the gospels, most especially John, indicate that Christ was not taken because the "peasants" (actually the temple guard and probably some Roman soldiers as well) over powered Him, but because He went to his death willingly. “
ROY SAYS: Guard, soldier ect.. has no difference than peasant comparing with God as former are made up all from human. No matter what is the position of human ~ temple guard or Roman soldiers or even todays atomic powered soldiers may not possibly over power even small evidence of God let alone God himself.
“Going to his death willing” is another made-up story. Too unlogical to be devine. All science, philosophy, antropology, history, logic, nature, biolgy, cosmolgy, physics, theology (christianity except this incident) strives the essence of existance not extinction, natural selection, wish of living - not dieing.
On the contrary Christ must ask God to live on to save his people by preaching (He lived and won over non believers~Islamic view, otherwise no christians would have been mentioned today~my opinion).didnt Moses, and Abraham has been saved by God with two miracles ( Red sea divide and fire becoming serene.)
If our prophet does something “going to his death willingly” we must wish the same thing as good followers. Why don’t you dare to wish some unlogical thing then?
We will all go death willingly to save others!!
Last word: Please leave such uttering and come to your senses to live in correct way.
Name:Mark-Tao •
Date: 03/11/07 20:12
A: KRS,
first let me say it gave me a huge laugh to see roy inviting you to "come to your senses to find real God". I assume he means his Muslim version of God. You probably don't see the irony in that, but trust me... it's a hoot.
You see, I also have a bias for humor... mea culpa.
The idea of Teacher or Master goes along with Mary Magdalene, even as she is presented in the NT. She is the first one to report of the risen Christ. She is at the cross. For a women of her day, she plays a prominent role in the story.
As for Mara meaning bitter: I've read a lot of grave stones, and I've never seen anything but kind words on them. Even if she was bitter, I find it hard to believe that anyone would put that on her ossuary.
Name:KRS •
Date: 03/12/07 1:53
A: "Mara" from the Hebrew was actually meant to be humorous. As for Roy, I've already stated the case, and when one comes to a certain point, the only debate is to debate the presuppositions.
Doesn't look like there is a good answer to this question, so I probably won't be checking this thread anymore.
Name:KRS •
Date: 03/12/07 1:59
A: Roy,
So let me get this straight, you think there is one God, and you think you are capable of understanding Him? God tells us throughout the Old and New Testaments that this is precisely not the case - check it out. Nor did I say that the definition of the Trinity could not be understood, I stated that Jews and Islam tend to operate on a misconception so what they object to is either the heresy of tri-theism.
As to your answer of going to the cross willingly, your answer requires as a presupposition man's ability to atone for his own evil. An analogy I use often in preaching is that if someone is a good father, takes care of his children, loves his wife, and kills someone else, all of those good deeds are not enough to convince a court of law that he is not guilty; when in court, only the question of guilt or innocence is ultimately relevant. In God's system, it works the same way. Someone must pay the price for the crime, the difference is that Christ stepped in to atone for us.
Since I won't be checking back on this thread, don't worry about answering, but think it over.
Name:roy •
Date: 03/12/07 12:38
A: Dear KRS thanks for answer, let me elaborate some details.
KRS SAYS: “you think there is one God, and you think you are capable of understanding Him? “
ROY SAYS:
I say There is one and only one God. Prophets ,including Jesus, Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isiak, Esmail, Moses, David, Solomon, and Mohammed were His slaves and prophets among whom we accept no prerogative of any sort. I think we can understand God from his reflections, arts, doings, traces, ruling and His science on earth. Our eyes and mind is not designed to see Him fully, but feel Him like air, electricity, radioactivity, heat etc.. He made the books to be understood easily by common man. He wants us to obey the religions brought & implemented by prophets ~ as sample living humans. Is there anything unfair or complex in this?
KRS SAYS: “ I stated that Jews and Islam tend to operate on a misconception so what they object to is either the heresy of tri-theism. “
ROY SAYS:
God forgives all sins except heretics of trinity. Trias is strictly forbidden in Islam and said is the continuous pitfall in all previous religions, often lured many believers. It holds the same danger for muslims loving too much of anchestors, priests, or prophets to make them equal or germane in ranking to God. Even asking a wish from those deities are biggest sin committed against God. He warns in hundreds of verses of Quran and Bible to avoid this pitfall or else you wont be forgiven. (Killing may be forgiven but deity worshipping not.) So please be ware of this threat from God and check your books better.You are especially a person to lead the crowd and want to be closer to God. You will get the burden of each person you‘ve diverted too. True Christianity never offered equal deity to God. Christ was praying to God for help, why should he have done, if He had been a god himself? Jesus never said pray to me, ask from me. Please check the following Bible verses: Matta 7:21-23
Psalm 99:9
Timothy 1:17
Isiah 45:21,22
KRS SAYS: “ if someone is a good father, takes care of his children, loves his wife, and kills someone else, all of those good deeds are not enough to convince a court of law that he is not guilty ; when in court, only the question of guilt or innocence is ultimately relevant. In God's system, it works the same way”
ROY SAYS:
Who knows God’s sytem? God has the endless freedom to do whathever He wishes:
In old and new testament Prophet David had the sin of seducing his neighbour’s wife, sent the husband to war made sure get killed at the front raws. (Islam denounced him to commit this event).
Moses has killed someone unjustifiably before becoming a prophet. He was about to kill another as the victim asked mercy and be saved. Moses was given prophecy after these two mistakes he did. This shows God has the possibility to forgive any sin, if He wishes.We don’t know the insight of events. We dont know for sure which sins may be waived from punishment but He perfectly may accept any serial killer to His heaven, do we have any right to claim something else? We know in general that whomever the good things in his life outweights the bad things will go to paradise. (After paying through hell, no one human will be exempted from visiting hell.)
KRS SAYS Christ stepped in to atone for us.: Someone must pay the price for the crime, the difference is that Christ stepped in to atone for us.
ROY SAYS:
In logic, islam, and all modern justice system, there is one simple rule, noone may be hold responsible or punished for others crimes.
Even someone says “I want to atone for other person” (mother to son, son to father, lover to lover) do you accept it? Why God should?
On the other hand why human must have a sin as prerequisite and if had, not be able to save himself / herself by prayer? Or if will be saved by atonement of Jesus eventually, why to care to be a better person not commit sins?
Whichever perspective you look at the made-up belief by Byzantene ruler and council of yours, is misleading.
Mark- SAYS:
first let me say it gave me a huge laugh to see roy inviting you to "come to your senses to find real God". I assume he means his Muslim version of God. You probably don't see the irony in that, but trust me... it's a hoot.
ROY SAYS:
There is only same God; Adams, Noahs, Abrahams,christian or muslim version of it is meaningless. You accept or not it is the One and Same. The problem starts at adding some deity besides God.
Your assumption is totaly baseless. There is no irony in what I say, it is a serious mistake to search for God all one’s career and still not finding it. It is a pity to find it a hoot, instead of spending time and brain work on what it is.
