Name:Xcavate •
Title: New research? •
Date posted: 09/17/07 14:40
Q: Can we put together a post with the ongoing research involving the Jesus family tomb. I have been out of the loop for a while and would like to know from people what is going on now. Thanks in advance, Xcavate
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/04/08 16:43
A: Hi Xcavate.
I was in Jerusalem in 1980 with two exegetes and am getting caught up myself, after being away from this field for 15 years at least.
There is a conference in a few days.
You will find good recent information on James Tabor's site.
He is the Bible specialist who was part of the research for the movie.
Indie Anna in Quebec
Filed under: Talpiot Jesus Family Tomb - James Tabor @ 8:58 pm
Upcoming international conference in Jerusalem dealing with the Talpiot Tomb in historical and archaeological context.
This conference, organized by Prof. James Charlesworth, of Princeton Theological Seminary, is precisely what various leading scholars called for months ago.
Among them Michael Stone of Hebrew University and Eric Meyers of Duke University, namely a sane, sober, academic consideration of all aspects of the Talpiot "Jesus" tomb in its wider context.
This is in contrast to the near hysteria and dearth of accurate factual information on the subject that flooded the print, TV, and Internet media back in the Spring. I post here Dr. DeConick's comments:
In case you haven't heard yet, Professor Charlesworth, for the Third Princeton Symposium on Judaism and Christian Origins, is holding a three-day conference in Jerusalem called
"Evaluating the Talpiot Tomb in Context."
Dates are Jan 13-16, 2008.
The provisional agenda that I was sent looks outstanding in terms of coverage and folks involved. Actually amazing might be closer to the mark.
Topics to be covered in special sessions:
Ancient Beliefs about the Afterlife and Burial Customs
Tombs, Ossuaries, and Burial Practices: The Archaeological Evidence
Burial Beliefs and Practices: The Textual Evidence
Onomastics and Prosopography in Second Temple Judaism
The Talpiot Ossuaries and their Epigraphy
Paleo-DNA and its Archaeological Applications
Patina Testing and its Archaeological Applications
The Talpiot Tomb in March 1980
Mary Magdalene in Early Christian Tradition
Relating Tomb Archaeology with Historical Figures: Possibilities and Problem Discoveries
The Palestinian Jesus Movement: Correlating Textual and Archaeological Evidence for Jewish Christianity
The Burial of Jesus, the Empty Tomb, and the Jesus Family
Statistics and the Talpiot Tomb
The program is still being finalized but most of the leading scholars involved in these topics have been invited and many have already confirmed their participation.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 01/04/08 18:01
A: I hope the results get listed on this forum.Thanks for your post.I know the tomb finding caused a great deal of controvesy but the origins of Christianity has always been shrouded in contradictions.All it took was science to cut through the mists and give a clear vision.And it's a real shock for the believers.....
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/06/08 4:05
A: Panluna
Shock indeed.
The world had had to face the reality of text analysis.
Not an easy thing to do.
When I was doing my ancient lit studies in the late 70s and early 80s,
the pattern was as follows :
1st year students would make it through their first semester and they'd have a kind of crisis. The crisis came from being introduced to text analysis. By the end of the 1st term of year 2, those same students would be observing the new batch of 1st year students for signs of what we nicknamed the " theological shock " .
By 3rd year, most had grown in their understanding of 'faith'.
I don't think Simcha or Cameron are faithless.
I suspect, as are 3rd year theology students, they still see the spiritual and the mystical side of faith. I suspect they simply see that God is leaving more than we thought up to humans when it comes to scripture.
So, yes, shock indeed.
The world has (is) going through what every seminary and theology student has gone through for decades.
So, yes, we have Simcha to thank.
But, before him, there was Luther, and all the German exegete that pioneered lit analysis.
This event is big. It is like when Galileo looked through his telescope and concluded the earth was not flat. It was such a shock for the world.
The world is going through a similar shock.
But, if humanity had not discovered the earth was round, we never could have sent men to the luna . :)
Now that the whole world is going through the theological shock,
I can't wait for mankind to theologically " send a man to the moon ".
Indie
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/19/08 21:34
A: New articles on the Jerusalem Conference.
Doctor Tabor has posted a new letter on the conference.
http://jesusdynasty-.com/blog/2008/01/
Indie
.-
Name:sam •
Date: 01/20/08 19:30
A: Hello Indie,
"The world had had to face the reality of text analysis. " TRUE.
"This event is big. It is like when Galileo looked through his telescope and concluded the earth was not flat. It was such a shock for the world." TRUE.
" the origins of Christianity has always been shrouded in contradictions." Panluna is right.
"They were moving the Christ experience far beyond its original vocabulary" Bishop John S. Spong is right too.
"THE WORDS OF JESUS ARE THE LIGHT, WHICH IF THEY USED THEM IN THEIR ANALYSIS, FOR SURE THEY WILL COME TO SEE THE TRUTH." Otherwise they will be lost for years (or forever) in between many different analysis, as Moses and His people were lost for 40 years in the desert, not because of Mose strong believe in God , but because of His people and their weak believe in God.
Galileo knew the consequences of bringing his discoveries to the world, and he knew about those who been killed or burned alive before him, but all that did not stop him from bringing the truth, and open the people eyes to understand the world which they live in.
He is an example to all those who seek the truth, he did his search away from the influence of the church or their teachings or the books which he belived in.
Thank you Galileo, You are the one who built the first step of the ladder that stretched up towards the sky , so man can walk on the moon, and your small telescope in which you see the sun and its planets, it led to the Hubble scope which we can see through it billiond of galaxies, and the marvels of God creation. The scientific search continued in all feilds away from the influece of the old believes, and all that brought to us more knowledge and brought us closer to know HOW THE CREATION BEGAN.
Before many centuries from the time of Galileo, these words were written:
"O MUHAMMAD, SAY TO THEM, "GO TRAVEL THROUGH THE EARTH AND OBSERVE HOW THE CREATION BEGAN," 29:20
God wanted HIS people to know the truth, all the truth and about everything , even about HIS creation. And God gave them many examples about things which wasn't known to them to open their eyes to look for those things, and he told them that they will know about those examples, and the information AFTER TIME.
I think "The chock" today will bring people to look for the truth, and I hope their search will not be influenced by anything, but in a pure and simple way as Galileo did, and for sure the people will find the truth of themselves and the world which they live in, and the truth of their creator.
Galileo did his part , and open a small window for us to see the marvels of God creation in the sky through small telescope.
JESUS, long time before Galileo open both, our eyes and our mind to know GOD, God who created all the marvels in our universe. God which we never knew HIM well before.
"....because they do not know THE ONE WHO SENT ME."... "THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD."....
let us do our part and open the door to see the marvels of God creation on earth, and to see the others and ourselves, as one big human family who live on a tiny planet thrown in space among 30 billion trillions stars, Let us open the door for peace and love and understanding, and to work togehter for the future generations, to ALL our children and grandchildren and their children, and we should not forget that we, WE ARE ALL THE CHILDREN OF GOD.
God bless you both.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/20/08 22:02
A: Amen.
Say I to Sam's words.
Indie
.
Name:Xcavate •
Date: 01/21/08 19:32
A: Thanks al for your response!! I wasn't at the symposium but have gathered ,some good will come of it. That being that although most were skeptical they agreed that more should be done to follow this up(if i understood the conclusions correctly). So hopefully soon we will be seeing the reopening of the talpiot tomb, and the exploration of the adjacent tomb. which I hope will lend more evidence to help in the research of the talpiot tomb.So if anyone hears anymore, Please post here to keep us informed. Thanks, Xcavate
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/21/08 22:23
A: Monday, Jan 21, 08
Will do.
Indie
.
Name:vvk •
Date: 01/24/08 9:31
A: I'm not the childrent of God. I do not belive in Mohammet, or God. I'm just belive in science. Thank.
Name:sam •
Date: 01/24/08 19:02
A: Dear v v k,
"I'm not the childrent of God. I do not belive in Mohammet, or God. I'm just belive in science. Thank. "
You can believe in whaterver you like, that is fine.
No one in this forums asked you to believe in Muhammad, or Jesus, or God, Also no one asked you to join this forums.
People here (in this forums) are discussing sbjects relating to our history, valid things that happen in our history, to bring the truth, THAT IS ALL.
YOU CLAIM THAT YOU BELIEVE IN SCIENCE!!!.
I am sure that you know the word SCIENCE, but , for sure you do not know what is the real meaning of that word.
SCIENCE, Is not piling up word to make a sentence, then throw it around, as you did here.
SCIENCE, is a branch of knowledge, dealing with material , phenomena and based on observation, experiment, and induction.
Non of what you brought up has any scientific value.
You should go back and read what our friends wrote in this forums from Ideas and opinion, to understand them more.
have a good day.
Name:Xcavate •
Date: 01/27/08 21:21
A: here is the latest I have been able to come up with.It is very exciting and a result of the symposium in january 2008. this is great news. Enjoy the link. Xcavate
A: Cameron and Jacobovici cited statistical analysis that suggested finding the combination of related historical names in a first century crypt at 600 to 1.
Those claims were the subject of the "Third Princeton Theological Seminary Symposium on Jewish Views of the Afterlife and Burial Practices in Second Temple Judaism: Evaluating the Talpiot Tomb in Context," held Jan. 13-16, 2008, in Jerusalem. The conference was attended by some fifty international and Israeli scholars.
According to a posting on the Princeton Theological Seminary website, the consensus of the participants was against the tomb being related to Christianity's founder.
"Unfortunately, many of the initial reports in the press following the symposium gave almost the exact opposite impression, stating, instead, that the conference proceedings gave credence to the identification of the Talpiot tomb with a putative family tomb of Jesus of Nazareth. As is abundantly clear from the statements to the contrary that have been issued since the symposium by many of the participants, such representations are patently false and blatantly misrepresent the spirit and scholarly content of the deliberations."
Several scholars issued a statement on the Duke University Religion Department's website indicating their rejection of the filmmakers' claims and disputing the press coverage.
* Professor Mordechai Aviam, University of Rochester
* Professor Ann Graham Brock, Iliff School of Theology, University of Denver
* Professor F.W. Dobbs-Allsopp, Princeton Theological Seminary
* Professor C.D. Elledge, Gustavus Adolphus College
* Professor Shimon Gibson, University of North Carolina at Charlotte
* Professor Rachel Hachlili, University of Haifa
* Professor Amos Kloner, Bar-Ilan University
* Professor Jodi Magness, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
* Professor Lee McDonald, Arcadia Seminary
* Professor Eric M. Meyers, Duke University
* Professor Stephen Pfann, University of the Holy Land
* Professor Jonathan Price, Tel Aviv University
* Professor Christopher Rollston, Emmanuel School of Religion
* Professor Alan F. Segal, Barnard College, Columbia University
* Professor Choon-Leong Seow, Princeton Theological Seminary
* Mr. Joe Zias, Science and Antiquity Group, Jerusalem
* Dr. Boaz Zissu, Bar-Ilan University
(Story continues below)
The conference featured a challenge to the identification of "Mariemene" with Mary Magdalene, a crucial part of the statistical analysis behind Cameron's and Jacobovici's confidence.
Professor Stephen Pfann, of the University of the Holy Land in Jerusalem, said the inscription does not read "Mariemene e Mara" at all but instead "Mariame" and "kai Mara," suggesting the ossuary contained bones of two women, Mary and Martha. Further, other scholars of early church history dismissed the link between "Mariamene" and Mary Magdelene.
"A statistical analysis of the names engraved on the ossuaries leaves no doubt that the probability of the Talpiot tomb belonging to Jesus' family is virtually nil if the Mariamene named on one of the ossuaries is not Mary Magdalene," wrote Duke University Professor Eric M. Meyers.
"Even the reading of the inscribed name as 'Mariamene' was contested by epigraphers at the conference," he wrote. "Furthermore, Mary Magdalene is not referred to by the Greek name Mariamene in any literary sources before the late second-third century AD. An expert panel of scholars on the subject of Mary in the early church dismissed out of hand the suggestion that Mary Magdalene was married to Jesus, and no traditions refer to a son of Jesus named Judah."
Myer also disputed the DNA claims of the filmmakers, citing a report by the head of the DNA laboratory at Hebrew University that concluded the sampling of the bone material was invalid and contaminated and could not be used to infer that "Jesus" and "Mariemene" were unrelated adults and, therefore, likely husband and wife.
"It was not even worth discussion. That should have closed the case," Myers told Christian Post.
The "smoking gun" at the conference, said Myers, was a surprise appearance by Ruth Gat, the widow of the archaeologist who excavated the tomb in 1980 and has since passed away.
Gat told the scholars her husband Yosef knew he had found "the burial tomb of Jesus Christ," but had "serious concerns and fears" over publicizing his discovery. Having been a child in Nazi-occupied Poland, he feared "a wave of anti-Semitism" because of his find.
Gat told the Jerusalem Post after her address her husband had been "staggered" by the discovery, and that he had discussed it with her "at the kitchen table."
Film director Jacobovici, who attended the symposium, said he "fell off the chair" when he heard her and claimed he had been vindicated by Gat's statement.
But Gat's claim was disputed by panelist Shimon Gibson, who was a young archeologist on the 1980 dig. He said Yosef never told him he believed the tomb was Jesus'.
Amos Kloner, former Jerusalem District archeologist, who wrote the excavation report from Gat's minimal notes 16 years after the find, said the notion Gat believed he had found Jesus' tomb was "absolutely not the case."
Further, noted Myers, Gat was a field archaelogist and did not have the epigraphic expertise to read the inscriptions.
According to Kloner, who called Jacobovici "a liar" at one session of the symposium and earlier branded the documentary "brain confusion," most of the bones found in the ossuaries 28 years ago were badly decomposed. Because of pressures from religious Jews, they were never subjected to anthropological tests and were transferred to the Religious Affairs Ministry for immediate reburial along with other remains found in construction projects and archaeological excavations. Their location is not known.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/29/08 4:05
A: .
Monday, Jan 28th, 2008
21h
Evening Jf777.
Your post is well constructed and shows you have done careful reading. I have read the sources you cite. I have read also the sources that address other points you have not mentioned.
On all the scientific elements you list, there have been scholarly replies, many of which are addressed in the letters of the Jesus Dynasty Blog, and on this site, under the button "Movie", "Response To Criticism".
I shall leave it to you to choose to read these clips and letters or not.
They respond intelligently to the points you raise.
They respond intelligently to the list of signatories of the letter you refer to.
The letter was written and signed within hours after a dramatic end to an extraordinary conference, under not only incredible media pressure, but indeed under extraordinary scrutiny from the entire world of Christendom,
by a group of scholars who were either
- jet-lagged,
- speaking authoritatively outside the bounds of their respective spheres of expertise,
- or both.
And they did so possibly based on a misunderstanding and incorrect media reporting.
I leave it to you also to note for yourself, or not, the names absent from the list of signatures, starting with Dr. James Charlesworth.
The letter may possibly have been signed by as least some who wished to simply say they did not endorse the i m p r e s s i o n some have, that Mr. Jacobovici's statement ("I feel vindicated") meant "This is the tomb!"
I do not think Jacobovici is saying that.
In statement after statement after statement, the documentarian has said over and over and over again that he simply wants the points he has raised to be considered by scholars.
Scholars have said (and the body of the symposium concluded meetings saying) "further research is needed".
The post-symposium letters on the JDBlog say that the outcome of the symposium was "further research is needed".
Insofar as there is a will to further prod and ask questions,
Cameron and Jacobovici indeed do feel vindicated.
And well they should.
Their goal was not to have people say "this is the tomb".
Their goal was to have people say "Let's look at this tomb".
Mrs Gat :
when the Canadian Air Force posted my parent to Europe in the early 60s, a mere 15 years after the end of the 2nd World War, as a child, I got on a train in Montreal, a city in Canada, I travelled to Quebec City, got on a ship with dozens of other military families, sailled to Le Havre, France, got on a train to Paris, slept there 2 nights, then continued on to Lorraine, a part of France (and Europe) that has ping ponged back and forth over the centuries inside and outside of the borders of France, Germany, Austria, Poland...
One of the first things I noticed (becaue we lived in a French neighbourhood) (not on the base) was the different (from North America) "space" people put between themselves and their neighbours.
In North America, when you move into a new house, within 3 days, neighbours know your entire family history. I'm carricaturing, granted. But bear with me. I do have a point...
In Europe, perhaps because of the greater density of population, because of the distinct cultures, histories, languages that live in relative proximity to one another, the way personal space is handled is different.
There can be far less "sharing" of personal views than we, in North America imagine.
Dr. Gat went to Israel and left behind wartime experiences that few today can fathom. I was not 9 when I witnessed hatred in one brand of European for another, not 15 years after the end of the war. The 2nd World War was the occasion for unbelievable expression of hatred for Jews.
I have read the views of some in this forum who ascribe to the revisionist view of history, who declare that there was no Holocaust. There sure as hell was. But, even if we pretend for a moment that there wasn't, I cannot begind to describe to you the hatred I witnessed some express for Jews, when I was a little Canadian Air Force kid, in the 60s in NE France.
I ran home, shaking from the shock to ask my parents for an explanation.
Europeans, as a rule, and European Jews, do not share their innermost thoughts with just anyone.
Shimon Gibson was in Jerusalem, in 1980.
He was a young kid.
A Brit.
On an archaeological dig for the summer.
I can very well imagine Dr. Gat not sharing with the young students on the dig information such as he may have share with his wife.
I was in Israel in 1980, during the summer, with an Old Testament exegete and a New Testament exegete. My professors had left Canada weeks before we student flew over to join them in Amman, Jordan.
But before our 2 professors met our plane in June of 1980 in Jordan, they were in Jerusalem, staying for a few weeks at the École Biblique.
I just heard back last night from my OT prof and will past 2 sentences he wrote to me. Then I will translate the 2nd sentence :
"Autour de la découverte du fameux tombeau, j'ai bien lu quelques réactions de spécialistes de la Bible,qui, sans parti pris je le pense, n'accordaient pas de crédibilité aux battage publicitaire entourant le documentaire. Même des spécialistes juifs avaient, dès le départ, rejeté tout fondement à la thèse de la découverte de la tombe du Christ. "
The 2nd sentence reads :
"Even at the time, Jewish specialists had rejected out of hand all grounds for the theory that the discovery was that of the tomb of Christ."
This, from a man who was living, eating and working for weeks, in Jerusalem, in April and May of 1980, with men who lived year round in Jerusalem, who were archaeologists, exegetes, historians and anthropologists.
My OT prof confirmed to me by e-mail last night, that in the days before he drove from Jerusalem down to Amman, in Jordan, to meet my plane, in June of 1980, that he was aware of the find.
If my prof was aware, I am willing to bet that Mrs Gat was aware.
Knowing what I know about European culture, in the 60s, along the France, German border, how people keep to themselves, how they were different from North Americans who tell you their whole life story within 10 minutes after you meet them, I absolutely can very well imagine Ruth Gat's husband discussing with her the find at the kitchen table, which typically, is where European husband and wife discuss everything.
In the days following the symposium in Jerusalem, precisely because there was no conclusive result, many were unnerved.
The whole world of Christendom, and then some, were sitting on the edge of their seats, waiting to hear about the symposium.
I myself was checking Dr. Tabor's blog about once ever 15 minutes there for a few hours...
The declarations of some and the letter, written and signed, I believe in hast, a letter that has been edited, sentences added, others removed,
had been a n a l y s e d,
exegetically I might add,
by a smart and well intentioned man, who believes strongly that we, the reading public, need to give some slack to the scholars who signed the letter,
we the reading public need to allow them to be human,
we the reading public need to show tolerance and restraint,
we the reading public need to give understanding to a groupe of scholars who are under the spotlight of the world,
and let a bit of time elapse,
let them get some sleep and let the dust settle a bit.
In 1980, I flew form Canada to Jordan and was there for an entire season.
These poor scholars flew there for a 3 or 4 day symposium.
There is a 10 hour difference, between eastern North America and Jerusalem. I think it's 10 hours.
So, these poor dumb slobs got on planes, arrived jet-lagged in Jerusalem, sat through 3 days of an absolutely extraordinary symposium, got back on planes, still running on adrenalin, and flew another 10 hours back in time,
and within hours, because of what might later be viewed, at least in part, as a misunderstanding,
felt the need to sign a letter, a letter having been shown to not necessarily reflect the true views of all the signatories,
a letter that should be read "in context",
i.e.,
read to note the signatures that are not on it.
Your post, well constructed, convincing, is pure propaganda from the con camp.
Whereas the symposium (and even the film makers) say "We don't know, but let's take a closer look", you have zeroed in on a couple of newspaper reports that sensationalized a couple of statement taken out of context.
Ever heard of the expression "wag the dog"?
In other words, what is you agenda, sir?
Two eminent scholars have come out and said the equivalent of
"Wo. Let's all take a deep breath, get some sleep, and pick up this quest in a logical scientific manner".
One of those scholars being Dr. James Charlesworth himself.
I, for one, am inclined to want to follow in his wise and gentle footsteps.
I invite others to do so as well.
Peace,
Indie Anna in Quebec Canada
.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/29/08 4:34
A: .
From the Jerusalem Post :
Journalist David Horovitz asked Dr. James Charlesworth the following questions :
Q : ...And that's what you're now going to set about doing?
A : Yes. I'm here till April. If we get a permit, I'm going to set up a committee, including [archeologist/anthropologist] Mark Spigelman... I plan non-invasive exploration... Contamination [of sites and their contents] has been rife in every archeological excavation. Now we have the insight of hindsight. We need to recognize what questions we have and how can we obtain the best answers. How, for instance, can we obtain DNA without contaminating it? We need to get the best minds. No one should be involved who has strong feelings, who think they know the answers.
And we need to ask :
1) Is the tomb related to Jews in the time of Hillel and Jesus?
2) Is the tomb related to people known in literature - in Josephus and the Mishna, in the New Testament and in rabbinic writings?
I'm convinced we'll never have definitive conclusions, but we'll have better questions.
We'll have a vastly improved historical reconstruction.
What is exciting for me is that we have Jews, Roman Catholics and Protestants working on this together, and their faiths are not a factor...
I'm on sabbatical at Hebrew University. I'm here. I'm open [to work seriously on this] if people are willing, and everyone seems to be willing.
Q : Can you elaborate a little on some of the wider context in which you're looking at the Talpiot Tomb.
A : We have more and more people, Jews and Christians, admitting that the "Palestinian Jesus Movement"
- something that was going on in Palestine, was relating to Jesus and was a movement -
was much more significant before [the year] 70 than we thought.
Almost everywhere you go
-at the Church of the Holy Sepulcher, at Ein Kerem, at Philip's Fountain-
you have Hadrianic structure.
Why would [Roman emperor] Hadrian have wanted to build something over celebration of the Jesus movement?
The provisional answer : He wanted to suppress it.
That's a fingerprint.
If he wanted to suppress it, it may have been significant.
The historical span is the period from 27 [in the three years before the crucifixion] to [the destruction of the Second Temple by the Romans under Titus] 70.
Why would there be such an interest in putting a stop to this movement?
It was the politics...
Jesus was clearly put to death by the Romans, not the Jews.
They thought he was leading an insurrection.
Jesus was surrounded by crowds - at the feeding of the 5,000, at the entry into Jerusalem.
That's a dangerous sociological institution ; people working together. If you're a Roman soldier, you see danger. There's something in the air that's very dangerous - the polemical ambience.
It was like a fire on which gasoline was being poured.
Jesus seems to know that open revolt against Rome would be disastrous - as indeed it proves in 70.
Jesus said : 'If they do this to the green wood, what shall they do with the dry?' He's the green wood, being taken to his death.
Jesus was warning :
Please be careful or everything will be destroyed.
In Luke, his followers talked of him predicting the destruction of Jerusalem, the greatest city ever built, with the greatest temple ever built.
We've found stones up to 570 tons [the 'Western Stone']!
The heaviest in the pyramids are 70 tons;
at Stonehenge, 35 tons.
A 100-ton stone can't be moved with wood, rollers, pulleys, brakes.
It's an amazing temple.
Archeology gives context to our text.
...E N D O F Q U O T E
__________________________________
Good evening, again.
Dr. Charlesworth mentions in the article above, Hadrian, an Emperor who build Greek building over Christian buildings.
Why is this significant?
Let's look at some dates :
H a d r i a n
Roman, born in 76 CE
Becomes Tribune of Mecedonia in 96
Serves in Trajan's wars in Dacia 101-106
Govenor of Syria in 114
Becomes Emperor in 117
One war fough during reign as Emperor :
- Jewish revolt in Judea, which he put down in 134.
Hadrian was a great admirer of Greek architecture.
He built great public buildings throughout the empire.
Dr-.-- Charlesworth means that if Hadrian fought only one war during his reign, and it was to put down a Jewish uprising, and if Hadrian built Greek building on top of Christian building, then the importance of the Palestinian Church was bigger than previously thought.
Extracting new information from known historical facts,
arriving at new conclusions be reexamining known historical facts,
and revisiting what we know about Primitive Christianity in Palestine is part of what Dr. Charlesworth has been working on while on sabbatical in Israel.
He, and other scholars are continuing to extract information from known historical facts in order to build a hypothesis that can help us better understand Primitive Christianity.
Text analysis, exegesis, of all monotheistic religious traditions, can only help mankind to build better understanding of who we each are today, as Jews, Christians, Muslims, agnostics, humanists....
Indie
.
Name:Xcavate •
Date: 01/29/08 19:37
A: Indie, I appriciate all of your well thought out insights.keep them coming. continueing research on the tomb is the right answer. even if these scholars are not in complete agreement,or on opposing sides.or heavily biased, which I am seeing more and more of. this is history in the making whether it is the tomb of jesus of nazereth or or the tomb of my neighbor. we need to move forward with this despite theological or any bias for that matter to further understand our past. just a thought. Xcavate
Name:sam •
Date: 01/29/08 22:30
A: Hi Indie,
SOME INFORMATION FOR YOU TO KNOW.
IN JESRUSALEM:
We've found stones up to 570 tons [the 'Western Stone']!
The heaviest in the pyramids are 70 tons;
at Stonehenge, 35 tons.
A 100-ton stone can't be moved with wood, rollers, pulleys, brakes.
It's an amazing temple. !!!
In my town BAALBECK.
Baalbeck, Lebanon's greatest Roman treasure, can be counted among the wonders of the ancient world. The largest and most noble Roman temples ever built, they are also among the best preserved.
Baalbeck is the embodiment of the superlative. It is one of the world's greatest historical and best preserved Roman sites; the most gigantic, largest and most noble complex of Roman temples ever built, its columns are the taller ever erected, its stones are the largest ever used.
Towering high above the Beqaa plain, its monumental proportions proclaimed the power and wealth of Imperial Rome. Gods worshipped here, in its Acropolis which was constructed between the 1st and 3rd centuries, the Triad of Jupiter, Venus and Bacchus (Mercury), ***
Temple of Jupiter
The Temple measures 88x48 meters and stands on a podium 13 meters above the surrounding terrain and 7 meters above the courtyard. It is reached by a monumental stairway.
Originally surrounded by 54 ( 2 meters in diameter -- those are the bigest columns in the world) external columns, most of these now lie in fragments on the ground. The six standing columns are joined by an entablature decorated with a frieze of bulls and lions' heads connected by garlands.
The Podium is built with some of the largest stone blocks ever hewn. On the west side of the podium is the "Trilithon", a celebrated group of three enormous stones weighing about 1000 tons each.
1000 TONS EACH -------It's an amazing temple.
Quarries
At the southern entrance of town is a quarry where the stones used in the temples were cut. A huge block, considered the largest hewn stone in the world, still sits where it was cut almost 2,000 years ago. Called the "Stone of the Pregnant Woman", it is 21.5m x 4.8m x 4.2meters in size and weighs an estimated 1,000 tons.
BAALBECK FESTIVALS:
The Baalbeck International Festival is the oldest and most prestigious event in the Middle East. The Festival is an annual event which takes place in the Roman Acropolis during the two months of July and August each year.
The Baalbeck Festival has evolved into a major world cultural event celebrating classical music, dance, theatre, opera, and jazz as well as modern world music from all continents. The most important artists in their fields appear on our stages.
After an interim, during the years of the Lebanese Civil War, the Festival has found its past glory. A cultural and touristic beacon, Baalbeck comes alive once again each summer with the top echelon of international, regional and local artists.
Dramatic lighting and a unique historic setting provide the background of the varied presentations, amazing 40,000 spectators each summer.
*** I was born in a house (originally was built as a hotel- with beautiful white stones, and on 2 acres of land on the side of the river " Ras-el-ain") built by my grandfather at the end of the 19th century on land in the center of the Acropolis "the Triad of Jupiter, Venus and Bacchus " , and those temples were our play-ground until 1953, when the house was taken by the government . (they found a lot of Roman structures and a MOSAIC floor, which was transfered to the museum in Beirut.
Dear Indie:
You will find A lot about Baalbeck on the net.
search on "Baalbeck Lebanon".... or going to wikipedia .
and if you like to see photos of Lebanon in general and Baalbeck. check in to "HABIB .COM" There are 86 pages with hundreds of colour pictures {Baalbeck on pages 70 & 71}
I am sure you will a lot of interresting thing from historical point to natures of another country.
Gos bless you.
Name:Anchorite •
Date: 02/02/08 2:50
A: Quebec Indie Anna,
Prisig's Zen book rooted the mystery. Here...
THE DAUGHTER
Moses mulled a moral law
Sartre said no point
Heraclitus didn't dare
Try to interfere
(Rand concurred it's up to her)
Dad Socratic knew her naught
Though he questioned much
Aristotle deemed her nice
Since averages suffice
Lao let her operate
That's just how she goes
Jesus thought he could forgive her
And that, no matter what
Leonardo, not quite done
Decided I'll have another one
Newton knew she'd come around
Plato'd lock her underground
Darwin hoped she'd break her date
Buddha thought she's way too late
Einstein knew she wouldn't play
To Heisenberg another day
Gödel said to take her word
No matter how absurd
Gandhi thought she could resist
Pirsig's motorcycle lift
Hubbard shew her commerce
Russell ruled enormous
Mao hoped she'd know by now
She's too old to scold
Marshall said it's only talk
Chomsky warned she'll never stop
Eventually, they'll all find out
I'm the one who let her out
MLH
Name:Xcavate •
Date: 04/23/08 4:52
A: here is the latest i have seen:
U of T scientist puts odds on lost tomb
Chance that ancient Jerusalem burial tomb did not contain bones of Jesus and family calculated at 1 in 1,600
MICHAEL POSNER
From Tuesday's Globe and Mail
April 22, 2008 at 4:17 AM EDT
A University of Toronto mathematician is lending new support to the controversial claim that an ancient burial tomb near Jerusalem once held the bones of Jesus of Nazareth and his family.
In a peer-reviewed article published last month in the prestigious Annals of Applied Statistics, Andrey Feuerverger places the odds of the 2,000-year-old tomb not belonging to the Jesus family at 1 in 1,600.
This figure is even more bullish than the 1-in-600 figure that Dr. Feuerverger calculated a year ago, when interviewed for The Lost Tomb of Jesus, a $4-million documentary produced by James Cameron and directed by Toronto's Simcha Jacobovici.
The tomb, now sealed beneath a housing development in Talpiot, east of Jerusalem, was accidentally discovered in 1980. Its contents included 10 limestone ossuaries, six of which were inscribed with evocative names, including "Jesus, son of Joseph, Maria, Jose [perhaps a brother of Jesus], Mariamne, Matya and Judah, son of Jesus."
It was Judaic custom at the time to place a deceased's bones, a year after death, into bone boxes stored in family tombs. Archeologists stumbling across these crypts typically turned the remaining bone fragments over to Orthodox officials for reburial; inexplicably, there is no report of what happened to the bones found at this site.
The film, adducing DNA evidence that suggested Jesus and Mary Magdalene might have been married and had a son named Judah, triggered a tsunami of debate. Many orthodox Christians viewed its claims as challenging the very foundations of the faith, which maintains that Jesus never married, never fathered a child and, three days after he died, was resurrected physically and ascended to heaven.
In the past year, six books and three other documentary films have been released, all attempting to refute the thesis of The Lost Tomb of Jesus. Websites and bloggers, academic and lay, have led a vituperative chorus denouncing the film as sensationalism and its findings as shoddy science.
The filmmakers say orthodox Christianity has even flexed its power to suppress their message. There's no hard evidence of such tactics, but Britain's Channel 4, which paid £200,000 for British rights to the film, has yet to broadcast it. Discovery U.S., which aired the documentary a year ago to enormous ratings, has since declined to rebroadcast it.
For years, archeologists attempted to deflect speculation about the tomb, saying that the names inscribed on the Talpiot ossuaries were common to the period. But Dr. Feuerverger's analysis rejects that argument, noting that while the individual names might have been common, this specific cluster of names so resonant of the New Testament is not. Indeed, in January, at a symposium with about 50 academics in Jerusalem, no one made the case for commonality.
Instead, opponents have challenged Dr. Feuerverger's historical assumptions, notably that the unusual Greek name Mariamne found on one of the ossuaries is an appropriate designation for Mary Magdalene.
But even discounting the Mariamne assumptions, Dr. Feuerverger's 51-page paper says that the tomb has a 0.48 chance of belonging to Jesus. That means, says James Tabor, head of religious studies at the University of North Carolina, "that if we had two tombs to examine, one of them would be the Jesus tomb. With Feuerverger's paper in print, a more responsible discussion of the Talpiot tomb name frequencies and statistics can take place."
One surprise development at the Jerusalem conference was the appearance of Ruth Gat, widow of the Israeli archeologist who first excavated the Talpiot tomb. Presented with a lifetime achievement award on his behalf, Mrs. Gat told the assembled academics that her husband had died with the conviction that the tomb belonged to Jesus Christ and his family. A Holocaust survivor, Mr. Gat had confided his views to his wife. He never went public, she explained, because he feared doing so would produce a global backlash of anti-Semitism.
"The fact is," maintains Mr. Jacobovici, the filmmaker, "that the conference shifted the fulcrum of academic opinion from 'couldn't possibly be the Jesus tomb' to 'very well might be.' "
Although most scholars remain deeply skeptical - 15 of those at the Jerusalem parley signed an online manifesto rejecting the Jesus tomb arguments - cracks have formed in the academic front.
"I don't believe the idea can be simply dumped into the garbage heap of pseudo-science and history," says Israeli geologist Aryeh Shimron. "And no manifestos are going to change my mind that easily. It deserves further, very detailed scientific study."
University of Detroit professor Jane Schaberg, one of the world's ranking experts on Mary Magdalene, says it is "quite possible, even probable," that the inscription on that ossuary describes Magdalene and adds that the tomb "may very well belong to Jesus and his followers, as opposed to Jesus and his family. My gut tells me it's a movement site."
What are the implications for orthodox Christians? "It means they should start studying what was meant by resurrection in the first century," Dr. Schaberg says. "Resurrection is not a simple thing, where the body just stands up and walks out."
"We might be dealing with the most tangible evidence ever of the existence of Jesus and his family," adds University of Toronto social historian Claude Cohen-Matlofsky. Even the conference's lead organizer, Princeton University's James Charlesworth, a New Testament scholar, said afterward, "I have reservations, but I can't dismiss the possibility that this tomb was related to the Jesus clan."
Symposium delegates ultimately voted unanimously to reopen the investigation into the Talpiot tomb as well as a second still unexamined crypt only nine metres away. So far, no action has been taken.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 04/24/08 23:33
A: Thanks for the info and recap.As soon as they get clearence they will reopen the tomb and examine the other one.There's alot government red tape involved.Can't wait to find out who was in the other tomb.
Name:Xcavate •
Date: 06/01/08 7:58
A: Dated Feb 2008
here is a piece that I didnt catch until now that could have some bearing on the tomb if the facts come out about the James ossuary.Which they probably wont but you never know. It would be nice just to get to the truth about the bone box. here is the link:
-
- The above link is a way to kinda keep up with some of the contreversy. enjoy, Xcavate
Name:Judith •
Date: 06/01/08 17:31
A: Thank you for the Tabor URL , I have not read all of it, but someone asked about a good Bible. I have "
The Word Bible"
with 26 Translations , Curtis Vaughn, Th.D
General Editor , Mathis Publishers, Inc.
But my Favorite was "The Good Shepherds Bible" I used it so much it fell apart. That one had leafs you could write notes on as well , if you wanted to do some of your own cross ref. which I did. I don't remember much , but did one on the word Goads from the old to new ( Paul's Vision in Book of Acts) . The priestly interpretation in my view was "The words of real priest and real masters are like well driven nails "
Name:Panluna •
Date: 06/01/08 17:51
A: Judith,
What makes THE GOOD SHEPARD'S Bible different from the other editions?
Name:Judith •
Date: 06/02/08 1:44
A: I can't say why I liked it so much, maybe because it was my first Bible, or maybe because it was given to me by a friend. It had leafs in it to take notes, most don't or none that I have seen. Just a blank page here and there, I have not seen it sense around 1981. It also had blank lined leafs in the bake to index what interested you.It was large and had cross referencing there that I had never seen elsewhere.
I began studying it in 1972.
Name:Judith •
Date: 06/02/08 4:39
A: is the Greek letter Nun where the Catholics got the title for theird "Nun, brides of Christ?"
Greek letter “Nun” or “N,
Name:Panluna •
Date: 06/02/08 14:52
A: Judith,
I don't know anything about the "Nun" ....
