Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Title: Palestine & Israel •
Date posted: 11/06/09 6:26
Q: .
I sat on a goat stool at the foot of the Sinai and laughed at the jokes of Fayez.
The land and its sun seem to belong to the man
the Palestinian, Fayez
He drove me back to Jerusalem, where he was born : Thank you Fayez for showing me your home
and for telling me all of your jokes.
I'm an Air Force brat and one of our traits is we long
for family history. It comes with the fact that we
move so much as kids.
Connecting with ancestors becomes a need.
When Mr. Jacabovici shows a need to reconnect with ancestors in East Europe, I can relate.
When he shares his need to reconnect names on boxes and a tomb and a time and a place and a
city at the eastern end of the Mediterranean,
I can relate.
I am so glad for the threading together of all of our ancestors. When Bagdad is being bombed, I worry about the treasures there that hold the secrets to our
collective ancestors.
I'm from French Canada. I'm Native & Irish & French & Scottish. But I feel a connection to the ancestors of other cultural and religious groups.
Question :
How do you think Palestians and Jews should share the tiny land they live on.
Movies to watch before you join this discussion :
Lemon Tree (2008)
The Band's Visit - La Fanfare (2007) Bikur Ha-Tizmoret
Exodus (1965)
My favourite moment in La Fanfare :
- when a band member, hangs his hat on a nail
to cover a picture in the bistro.
Indie
.
Name:vvk •
Date: 11/07/09 8:31
A: Hi IndieAnna
My English is not very good, but when i have time I like to read something about this website, You are the most patience and loyalty to this web,It's very nice. Thank You very much.
Vincent.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 11/07/09 13:46
A: Hi Vincent.
Thank you for your message. What is your main language that you speak?
Indie
.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 11/08/09 6:16
A: .
A film to also see before beginning this discussion ls "Adoration" (2008).
And the special features of the film.
Indie
.
Name:sam •
Date: 11/12/09 2:09
A: Dear Indie,
You brought this question :
atheist
How do you think Palestians and Jews should share the tiny land they live on.
Let us imagine that you and your family own a house in the country which we call Canada and you had a native Indian live next to you, and both houses had a small land, but both live in harmony and had a good life, and let us imagine too, that a native Indian family treated badly south of the border, and that poor family came and took a corner from your land to make it their home, then they invited another native Indian from Mexico to move in and take another piece, and another, and another, then those make themselves free to go into your house and treat you and your family badly , and you cannot move in your own house, and then after they kill some in your family etc. , etc. etc. THE QUESTION IS:
YOU THINK THE INDIAN WHO LIVED ON THE LAND FOR 25000 YEARS HAS THE RIGHT TO FORCE YOU OUT OF YOUR LAND AND HOME TODAY, KNOWING THAT YOU TOOK THEIR LAND AFTER KILLING MOST OF THEIR PEOPLE ?.
EVEN THE INDIAN [ AND THE BLACKS] BECAME CHRISTIANS [AMERICANS & CANADIANS] AND CARRY THE BIBLE, THEY ARE TREATED AS SECOND CLASS CITIZENS IN THEIR OWN LAND. IS THAT RIGHT ?
Dear Indie, First, Palestine is a TINY LAND and it was shared during the history by the people who lived within the country [occupiers come and go...Greeks-Persians-Romans, Arabs etc.]
Second, Even with their occupations for hundreds of years by great powers, their identities as the people of the land , Palestinians or Syrians or Egyptians never changed.
Third, the Palestinian before Abraham all were atheist, then the family of Abraham [the jews tribe stated] and other tribes followed His teachings [not Jews], and the story goes on until Moses get the Jews [the children of Abraham and other children not related to Him by blood] out of Egypt, and they took Palestine from its people [they claim god gave it to them !!!]
Then came Jesus, and the Christianity [teaching love and peace], and the people of Palestine, the same people divided between Jews and Christians and non-believers, then from Arabia which borders Palestine from the south came the Islam teachings, and was chosen by some in Palestine but there still there are Jews and Christians, and all lived together FOR THE LAST 2000 YEARS, and there was no wars UNTIL THE YEARS 1948 ???????
The Jews from Europe and Africa and America are flooding the tiny country, they are coming to take the land and to kill and throw the Palestinians out ,and not to share Palestine with the Palestinians, and they are supported by the super power Christian countries of the west to serve their political agenda , this is the answer.
Information taken from HAMMOND MEDALLION WORLD ATLAS which describe the historic changes in the area of the eastern Mediterranean part of land, and it shows the MAPS of the area in colors, the dates and the people who live in and the outside powers who came in to control.
The first MAP 2000 to 1600 B.C.
Egyptian Kingdom south, & the CANAAN to the north ruling the land from SINAI desert in the south to Byblos in the north and that is the area which include PALESTINE & LEBANON today, and of course the OLD BABYLION KINGDOM TO THE EAST.
The second MAP shows the kingdoms of the area ans that CANAANITES in Palestine and the PHOENICIANS in Lebanon, [and EDOM -MOAB - AMMON - KINGDOM OF SIHON - KINKDOM OF OG - and THE HITITE EMPIRE, ON THE EAST AND NORTH OF THE AREA.
A red note written: Canaan at this time was an Egyptian province...
The third MAP, it shows THE ROUTE OF THE EXODUS AND THE CONQUEST OF CANAAN
On this MAP there are many notes written in red, among them: In the land of Goshen [EGYPT] the Israelites* dwelt in bondage. , Israelites* wondered in wilderness for a generation..., After the fall of JERICHO, JASHUA conquered central and southern Canaan.
Here I will stop to ask few questions:
- We can see clearly here that those who created those maps mentioned the JEWS as ISRAELITES long before Israel is mentioned in this atlas . and the question is why?.
- when I read Jashua, I went to check the Bible, and here some information:
Joshua 6:21 And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword.
[THE JEWS CAME TO DESTROY AND KILL ]
7:1 But the children of Israel committed a trespass in the accursed thing: for Achan, the son of Carmi, the son of Zabdi, the son of Zerah, of the tribe of Judah, took of the accursed thing: and the anger of the LORD was kindled against the children of Israel.
[THE JEWS ANGER THEIR LORD GOD]
7-7 And Joshua said, Alas, O LORD God.... [Alas ??? is that Allah .. Is that what Jesus mentioned ?... Eli, Eli {God, God}, and I read this in the gospels.
9:24 the LORD thy God commanded his servant Moses to give you all the land, and to destroy all the inhabitants of the land from before you.
[WAS IT GOD WHO GIVE THEM THE LAND AND ASKED THEM TO DESTROY THE LAND AND ALL THE INHABITANTS ??????. AND WHAT KIND OF GOD IS THIS GOD???/ ......IS THE JEWS GOD AND HIS WORDS DIFFERENT FROM JESUS TEACHING.??..... IS THE BIBLE THE WORDS OF GOD OR THE HISTORY OF THE JEWS??? ]
10:38And Joshua returned, and all Israel with him, to Debir; and fought against it:
10:39 And he took it, and the king thereof, and all the cities thereof; and they smote them with the edge of the sword, and utterly destroyed all the souls that were therein; he left none remaining: as he had done to Hebron, so he did to Debir, and to the king thereof; as he had done also to Libnah, and to her king.
10:40 So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded.
[GOD OF ISRAEL COMMANDED HIS PEOPLE TO DO ALL THAT .....SOMETIME I WONDER IF THERE ARE TWO GODS , THE BED IN THE BIBLE AND THE GOOD IN THE GOSPELS...]
1200 to 1020 B.C.
The fourth MAP, it shows CANAAN AS DIVIDED AMONG THE TWELVE TRIBES
Another MAP came to show the land occupiers: THE EMPIRE OF DAVID AND SOLOMON.
1000 TO 925 b.c.
AT THIS TIME ISRAEL NAME CAME FOR THE FIRST TIME.
Phoenicia - Philestia . All the area on the Mediterranean . Syria - To the north.
ISRAEL - north of Jerusalem , east of the Jordan river, up north of lake Tabarya.
JUDAH - very small part west of the dead sea, and surrounded by AMALEKITES.
925 TO 842 B.C.
ISRAEL , grow to occupy part of land east of the red sea, and east to the Mediterranean sea , from JAFFA to HAIFA [today], and south of JAFFA is PHILISTIA [PALESTINE].
JUDAH, grow to take over the land in the south and reach the gulf of Aqaba on the red sea,
840 to 800 B.C.
ISRAEL AND JUDAH at the time of THE SYRIAN CONQUESTS.
Here Israel lost HALF THE LAND and so JUDAH.
700 B.C.
JUDAH AFTER THE FALL OF ISRAEL.
[HERE THE NAME OF ISRAEL STOP TO EXIST]
JUDAH became only small part of land to the west of the dead sea, surrounded by Philistia from the west and Samaria from the north, and Egyptian kingdom from the south , and Arabia from the east.
From that we can come to the conclusion , and that is Israel is a country built on occupation of the land of THE OTHER PEOPLE and on destruction and killing [read the Bible] , and only lasted from 1000 B.C. to 700 B.C.
That is only 300 years
But for many thousands of years before the name of Israel appear, the following countries existed, PHILISTIA, PHOENICIA, EGYPT, SYRIA, ARABIA, and they still in existence after Israel is gone, and if you question WHY? , the answer it is because the people of the land always stay in their land but the occupiers no matter how long they occupy the land one day they will be out. Example. The Greeks, the Romans , the Ottomans etc and many others around the world they try to conquer other people and take their land but only for some time.
God bless you.
Name:sam •
Date: 11/12/09 16:15
A: Hello Indie,
Sorry, the word "atheist" came on top of my post by mistake. The reason is I don't know how to spel this word , and I am using the "word perfect" , so I wrote this word to see if my spelling is right, but forget to delete it.
Please forgive me.
God bless you.
Name:vvk •
Date: 11/15/09 6:37
A: Hi IndieAnna
It's vey nice for You and sam still come back the web, I'm Vietnamese language speaking.
I can't belive You had H1N1. Where You get it from. Hope You get well soon.
vincent.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 11/16/09 1:41
A: Hi Sam.
Hi Vincent.
I must rest now, but I will respond soon.
Sam, thank you for your comprehensive post.
Talk to you soon.
Indie
.
Name:betty47 •
Date: 12/21/09 4:11
A: What inventions have the Palestinians given the world? Answer: infatadas, suicide bombers and hate.
What inventions have the Israelis given the world? The cell phone, Windows XP, and modern scanners to find breast cancer which have benefited millions around the globe. Jews have won more Nobel Prizes for science per capita than any other group. Arabs have won almost none because they have contributed little that benefits the world in modern times.
More Palestinians go to Israel to live from the West Bank than any other country. There never was a country called Palestine. Palestinians have murdered, burned and killed Jews for thousands of years. It's not like the Palestinians are a bunch of boy scouts. They hate women too and their fellow Muslims if they happen to be Shites.
The West Bank and Gaza was first taken over by Jordan and Egypt, not Israel. Arabs prevented a Palestinian state, and most Palestinian leaders like Arafat were corrupt, building palaces with money that was suppose to go to the poor in Palestine, so that they would stay poor and want to throw their lives away as suicide bombers.
It's time to disallow the postings knocking Israel and stick to issues impacting the Jesus Family Tomb, in my opinion.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 12/23/09 5:44
A: .
December the 22nd, 2009
Good evening Friends.
Sam, again, thank you for your post. Betty, welcome to my page. I will re-read your post after I've had a night's sleep. I worked 15 hours today and begin tonight my December holiday here in Canada.
Growing up near the German border in the 60s, near a Canadian Air base, but frequenting France's schools, I witnessed first hand, only 15 years after WWII the deep division between various families of my classmates while I was in primary school.
So, I know firsthand how some can reject out of hand the value of an entire other people and culture.
My ancestors are from the forest and rivers that mark my land.
My ancestors' culture taught me that every human being is a universe onto their own.
My ancestors taught me to welcome the individual.
I cannot pretend to know the reality from which you come.
You said nothing about your past or where you are from.
Sam and I have been speaking for years.
We know one another's history.
We have argued.
We have shared.
We have grown to respect one another.
Yet, we are still getting to know one another.
May I invite you to read the post that begins this page?
May I invite you to see the movies I mention in that post?
May I invite you, at any time you wish, to say a little about yourself?
Do you hail from the US Bible belt?
Jerusalem?
Germany?
You seem to be writing in your first language, so if you have the time, try to explore some of the other exchanges between Sam and myself.
You say it is time to disallow the kind of exchange you see between Sam and myself.
What I'd like to share with you is that Sam and I have built, over time, a safe zone to say how we feel about things, yet somehow we always show one another that we want to at least keep the lines of communication open.
We always show one another that we want to at least continue to learn more and more about one another.
We each come from different tradition.
To learn the history of another human being takes a lifetime.
I learned that as the child growing up in and Air Force family, moving every few years, changing cultures, food, language, school, climat, music...
To learn the history of another human being takes love of one's own tradition and a deep respect for the tradition of others, simply because that person exists.
Simcha also, is my impression, one day discovered that he needed to understand where his ancestors come from : his ancestors in Europe; his ancestors who wrote their names in limestone.
Today, someone read a sentence to me and made a comment.
I realized that the person did not understand the meaning of two words in that sentence. I handed that person my digital dictionary and said : spend time with that sentence;
spend time with that sentence;
spend time with that sentence.
Then I will listen to your new comment.
As I begin my holiday time on this December 22nd 2009, I wish all readers and contributors peace, love of their ancestors, desire to listen, joy in sharing, and I wish, on December the 25th, that I could make the whole world sit down with a bowl of pop corn and watch
The Band's Visit - La Fanfare (2007) Bikur Ha-Tizmoret.
Is my prayer tonight.
Indie
.
Name:sam •
Date: 12/30/09 0:21
A: Hello, betty47,
You quoted this, "What inventions have the Palestinians given the world?"
I agree with you that the palestinian in the last 50 years or so did not give much scientific enovation, and the Israelies did, but the question why?.
Here some facts that only the naive people will ignore, or try to ignore because they like one side and hate the other.
1- The Palestinians in Palestine were under the occupation by the British for many years, and if you have a common sence and the right knowledge about history you will know that any country under occupation will never had chance to develop, and that is a fact [just look at the eastern European counties while under the the power of the Russians.
2- The British left and with France and many other countries helped in bringing the Jews from all around Europe and gave them the arms to take the Palestinians land and kill the people or throw them out to be refugeese, and keep the young generation jailed in their land.
3- THE "infatadas, suicide " are no more than act needed for those poor people to defent themself while under occupation and humilation , and it is exactly like any intifada and suicide act done by any people who suffer from brutality of the occupiers.
Did you ever read about the American intifada to throw the British out, or the indian intifada or the French intifada or the ones that occur in many eastern European countries, for example the intifada in Czechoslovakia, and the use of 5000 Russian tanks to break it down.
Yesterday I watched a movie called " THE FOUR HORSEMANS" A REAL STORY about a French-Argentinian rich family who went to France and fought with the French- underground movement [intifada] and helped tothrow out the German , and the same happen in Algeria to throw the French occupiers out etc., etc., etc.
The occupying countries give the intifada's a bad names , many different bad and ugly names and they try to name the people seeking their freedom as outlaws,murderer, killer etc.,
The Americans, the indians, the French, the Algerians, all of them called different bad name, but the question are those people who sacrifice their live and fought for their countries bad people, please tell me.
Hundred of thousands of Afaghanies lost their live fighting the Soviet occupation and were helped by many othe countries including the United State, Betty, do you think the intifada in Afaghanistan was bad and the Afaghany were wrong to fight the Soviets?
4- Since the creation of Israel, the Jewish people mostly came from Europe which they are developed country and are advanced in science and millitary knowledge and they were mostly rich , and small portion from Africa or Asia, those are the poor and third world class and they were under the Europeans occupation [ex:, Morroco, Egypt, Lebanon etc.], and the different between the two groops noticible.
5- Israel received 50 billion Mark from Germany in the early years, and many billions from England and France and from the rich Jews around the world.
Israel are getting every year more than 4 billions dollars , plus the secret assistant, plus the donations from their supportes.
Did those figures means anything to you ?.
Do you think anyone can do any scitific or even a social research or do any work of any kind whithout having the resources or what we call $$$$$$$$$$$$$.
After all that , I don't think you will come to undrstand the different between the right and the wrong,
Name:sam •
Date: 01/01/10 1:33
A: Dear Indie Anna,
I wish you and all the freinds in this forums a verry happy new year.
God bless you all.
Sam
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/02/10 1:05
A: .
January 1st, 2010
20h
Watching the movie 'Speed'. :)
Hi Sam!
Happy New Year! May you, and your wife and your children all enjoy good health and peace in your hearts.
Thank you for your wishes too.
Regards,
Indie
.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 07/30/12 3:31
A: .
Hi Sam.
I just whent to see a film in French, Le Cochon de Gaza, The pig of Gaza. The English title is
That is also the city where Peter had his vision of the unpure meats.
Indie
.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 07/30/12 3:34
A: .
Hi Sam.
Did you hear what idiot Romney said today?
He only cares about getting the Evangelicals to vote for him.
What an ignorant man.
Hope Jimmy Carter speaks out.
Indie
.
Name:sam •
Date: 07/31/12 0:21
A: Hello Indie,
Just watched him on CTV , and it is a shame that an American president of a nation as big as USA , needs to go to Israel to get their approval. I wonder who is the real people who govern the United state, are they the Americans or the Israilies ?.
After CTV, I watched CNN, and A question raised about Romney income tax, and his refusal to show his taxes beuond the 2 last years !!!.
Romney is no different from bush the son or the father or the holy spirit of the repablican /Evangelical party, their history of lies are all over, and the problem is that the Americans can be easely used, and an add on TV, or in the newspaper can steer them to the right or to the left or whatsoever.
This great country/ nation, is built/fed in the last century by Mcdonald & Coca COLA & KFC, et., etc., adding to it the Alcohol & drugs, & crimes until it become a very sick nation with people whom the do not really know the right from the wrong, and believe me Indie , that such a nation will suffer a lot in the future.
Hope your summer is agreat one,
God bless you.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 08/02/12 5:28
A: .
August 1st 2012
Friends,
In the past few days ,
I have reflected on the tragedy in Colorado, in a movie theater,
I have watched on the TV the Olympics in London,
I have heard Romney spew his Christian fundamentalist eschatological bias from Jerusalem, probably because he thinks that Evangelicals will vote for a Mormon if that Mormon presidential candidate states that he views Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel and promises to move the US embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem,
I have seen in the theater the movie Le Cochon de Gaza (The Pig From Gaza?),
I have I have listened in horror to my Evangelical neighbour say she can't wait for Armageddon to come,
I even happened to watch again the film 2012 (and noticed for the first time that one line of dialogue in that movie is about the Olympics in London...
I will not go so far as to condem all of the 230 million Americans for the words of one misguided US presidential hopeful, Romney, because he is being very Mormon this week while in Jerusalem, and trying to infuse into the US presidential election process, elements of his fundamentalist faith, to be precise, the Mormon views of the so-called "Last Days", yea, 'Latter-Days'.
For having sat up, way up, in Jordan, at the ancient High Place of sacrifice, and felt close to the Ancients and to God,
for having walked the streets of the towns of Israel in 1980, before the Berlin-like walls went up all over that land,
for having wandered, unrestricted, from one section of Jerusalem to another, Arab section to Jewish, to Christian, I wish to answer Romney with the following oracle :
"And when his servant-girl went up to the Mountain to pray, she ran behind He-Who-Is and caught, for but a moment, the edge of His robe and she heard the command to speak these words :
Verily, verily, I say unto you : 'Say no more 'This is the city of our God!' and 'No! This is the city or OUR God.' , and yet again 'NO! This is the city of our God!'
For, I say unto you : let this city be the museum only,
the record only of these three tribes.
For even my prophets of Old gathered together the words from the North Kingdom and the South Kingdom;
Let no government come and say 'Here will we plant our flag.'
Listen to my command : I command you : Build unto Me this city on this hill, the three brothers, together,
reveal to one another the treasures hidden in her caves and secret places. Do not yell and say 'Here! I have the truth and you have none.'
For you all have been given my Word.
Let your government remain on that hill by th sea, like Cesar of old kept. Leave my Jeusalem to be only for my people to gather to wash and cleans themselves and to serve each other and Me.
For even my Son cast out the money-changers and said that Jerusalem is a house of prayer. NOT EMBASSIES.
Let my city be an example unto the world. Remember my Word : by their love ye shall know them.
The greatest law is to love one another. To hate one another and create Armageddon is not my will. Only hate can creae such devastation. Go up to my city with your brother, not to fight against him.
Have I not shown you that the Spirit of the Law is greater than its letters?
The prophets of old speak of the great evil in the end of times that can destroy; the evil at the end of times is he who says 'I will sit at the head of the table, and you will sit at the end.'
That is the evil. I ran out and invited ALL to come to the feast.
Do not spend the end of days saying here and there 'The table is for only these ones, not these other ones.' I commanded you to run out into the streets and beg all to come to the table. Do not pretend now that only some are worthy. Give to all a place.
That is my Word, which I give to my servant-girl and I command her to speak it unto you. Amen.
_______________
Now, Sam, I know that for you, who believes in the theolgoy of hte 'Closed Book', who believes that no new Words can be added to the canon after the 7th century, I ask you to remember that I am just a girl letting the Words that give me life flow from my pen. I do not pretend to be anything more that just that; a girl with hope; oups, I'm going to quote Paul, not your favourite New Testament actor : '..., and the greatest of these is hope.'
----------------------------------------
Well,- Mr. Mormon, eschatological, feast-excluding Romney, take them words and put'em on yer plate and eat them, or, go jump in your Great Salt Lake and float around in it till the salt
makes you thirsty for my clear, Canadian, life-giving water that flows like the Jordan of old,
for the blood of the ancient people of the canoe flows in the veins of my servant-girl,
who is of the land where the chief tapped the rocks with his paddle and the rivers of truth have run ever since.
I have taken her up to Jerusalem and shown her all these things.
Hear her words, for they are mine.
And, Amen.
She cannot sign this oracle as 'indie' for these are not her words.
They are mine.
And again Amen.
.
.
Name:sam •
Date: 08/07/12 0:58
A: Hi Indie,
I do like your post, and thank you.
As for saying ,
Now, Sam, I know that for you, who believes in the theolgoy of hte 'Closed Book', who believes that no new Words can be added to the canon after the 7th century .
I say, that is true, because,
First, the Quran is one book , and this book never changed. not a word been added or taken out, and from the time it was written to this day the Quran recited and memorized, first by thousands and then by millions all around the world.
Second, The words of the Quran came to the prophet Muhammad, and they are not Muhammad words [Muhammad words which been spoken by Him are collected and put in other book which are known by HADITH].
The words of the Quran came to the prophet by the Angel Gabriel [Gibril], and it is the same way in which the prophet Jesus get His words, {...THE WORD WHICH YOU HEAR IS NOT MINE, BUT THE FATHER'S WHO SENT ME}. The words of Jesus suppose to be the only Gospel, and not to be mixed with Paulâs words from his business letters, and the words of the unknown scribes who wrote the Gospel 'ACCORDING TO', and the words which been added by the people of the churches many centuries after Jesus death, for example, the false story in the Gospel according to Mark from 16:9 to 16:20. âTHAT IS FORGERYâ
The Christians and Jews they do not believe in the book which is only one book, and it is source is one and was memorized by thousands at the time when received, and never changed, but they do believe in their many books which no one knows who wrote them, and they were written after many decades from the time of Jesus & Moses ???.
As for the question of âADDING NEW WORDSâ to any book, either from the 7th century or the 20th century, or any century in between my answer is:
THAT IS NOT RIGHT AND HONEST. THAT IS WHAT WE CALL â FORGERYâ.
That is what happen to the Gospels, and every Christian scholar know this fact.
According to prof. Dr. Bart Ehrman*, and the 200 theologians who wrote âTHE FIFTH GOSPELâ, IN FOUR COLORS, The true words of Jesus which has no doubt in the 4 Gospels are about 20%, and those written in red, and the rest some in orange color, which can be His words 50/50, and the grey color which make it not right to come from Jesus, and at last the black color and that is what all the 200 theologians agree that 100% not the words of Jesus.
* - Dear Indie, please watch this from youtube:
Does The Bible Misquote Jesus? (Debate, 2010)
This is the March 31, 2010 debate between two prominent New Testament scholars: Dr. Craig Evans and Dr. Bart Ehrman on the reliability if the New Testament. The format revolves around 7 critical questions on the topic......
Of course that is about the Bible from two Christians scholars, and then you can watch a Christian doctor talking about the Quran, on youtube:
The Glorious Qur'an - Laurence Brown - 1
And,
Eighth Scroll - Laurence Brown - part 1
Interfaith discussion for Muslims, Christians and Jews.
I hope the above youtube video will give a better picture about the different religions and thier books.
God bless you.
By the way, I watched the soccer game between Canada and the US, and was apset to see our team losing at the last minute.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 08/07/12 17:38
A: .
Tuesday August 7th 2012
Hello, dear Sam.
Thank you for your interesting post.
I didn't see the soccer game. I think my big brother saw it. I prefer this game to hockey and US 'football'. I find it purer and more exciting....
I am touched by your frustration that the Occident seems oblivious to the deep attachment of Islam to the book that came out of Arabia in the 7th century.
I have deep respect for the Mediterranean Basin Arab literary traditions. One only has to crack open the Book of Proverbs or the Wisdom texts to get an inkling of the sopistication of the oral traditions and the sublime poetry of Arabic source. If ever there was a people of the 'spoken word', the cultures that have no tv and whose members still sit around a cup of tea and talk in the evenings is the people who we should listen to with conficence when they tell us occidentals that they want to share with us their love of a book.
And yet, we Occidentals seems deaf to the wisdom of our Arab-speaking cousins.
You wrote in the post above the following :
"The Christians and Jews they do not believe in the book which is only one book, and its source is one, and was memorized by thousands at the time when received, and never changed, but they do believe in their many books which no one knows who wrote them, and they were written after many decades from the time of Jesus & Moses ???."
I understand your frustration, Sam.
I think that part of the cause for our 'collective deafness' is a perceived 'bossyness' (whether real or imagined) of Islam when it comes to the unquestionability or un-study-ability of the history of the first-century Islam, our 7th century.
When I look at the gentleness of the writings of Sufi Muslims, or even the poetry of Gibran Khalil Gibran, there is a respect for the freedom of thought of the Occidental reader.
As soon as we begin to talk abot the 'book' from Arabia in the 7th century, we Occidentals wonder is someone is going to slit our throat if we ask an innocent question on historicity, or if those of us, accustomed to the historical-critical approach to ancient literature, want to talk about the times and context of 7th century Arabian writings.
I think part of the rigidity in the Oriental community has also to do with Occidental irreverance for the wisdom of elders, the wisdom of parents, the wisdom of grand-parents. Youth in the Occident has not figured out how to not be arrogant.
I think there is a huge 'elephant in the room' in Occidental-Oriental relations that has nothing to do with religion, and more to do with just how adults spend time with the youth :
in one culture adults seem to spend more time with youth than in the other culture.
A culture that makes no time for adults to spend with its youth is doomed to Colorado-cinema-like events on a greater scale than a culture that makes time to 'visit' with its youth.
The father who takes his son to hockey, soccer, and dirt-bike parks and never has the time to just sit and talk with him or quietly read beside him is not creating a relationship of dialogue.
There is even less time for a relationship in families where members do not even eat together anymore.
The only thing I have against conversations with tea cup in hand in the Arab culture is that it is for men only. Because I have no sisters, it felt natural for me, when I was in the Middle East, to go sit with the Palestinian men in our caravan at the end of the day and listen to them talk. I'd ask what the topic was about and just listen to the tones of voice and body gestures to see who I thought was saying what.
I was the youngest member of the group and they tolerated me hanging around them (instead of my sitt;ing with the Occidentalsin the group) because I could not participate in conversation because I did not understand the language. I was treated as if I was a 5 year old child, with friendly teasing, even though I was in my mid-20s.
I wish now to respond to another point you make in your post above :
You speak of the definition of a scriptural forgery.
I listened to the exchange at the link you suggested.
Bart Ehrman is a man who began his adademic studies from a place of the Evangelical faith of his youth. Today, his pure interest in Biblical literature is what drives his career.
His responses to the questions were informative.
His explanations about what constitutes a 'forgery' is easy to understand.
I thank you for the link. I will listen to it again.
Now, I'd like to propose that my so-called 'oracle' (2 posts above this one), is not a forgery.
If anything, my 'oracle' is just blasphemous.
Technically, I am not pretending to be a bible writer of old. I do not take the name of one of the New Testament figures. I even pretend that God is speaking and commands me to write.
My justification for doing somehting so extreme is my anger at Romney for declaring Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel.
My justification for doing something so extreme is my anger at Romney for declaring he'd move the US embasy to Jerusalem if elected President.
The strongest possible reaction I could think of to have in the wake of Romney saying such outrageous things while in Palestine, was to pretend to be a girl in her canoe being spoken to by Gad.
I wasn't writing a forgery; I was pretending to be spoken to by the Creator. That't how mad I was at Romney. My oracle was a lierary creation in which I 'borrow' the authority of God in order to express my humble opinion and hope that Jerusalem be kept as a city where the three religions can continue to welcome pilgrms from all those who wish to visit Jerusalem.
Instead of declaring, as did Jesus, that the Temple is a place of prayer, not money-changers, I go ahead and say to Romney that the whole city is a place a prayer, not embasies.
I think the man is so arrogant that the only 'person' who could shut him up is God. So I pretended to be God !
Forgive me God. I thought you wouldn't mind me telling Romey to go jump in his Great Salt Lake out there in western US Mormondoom.
Signed,
You humble servant-girl in her Canadian canoe. :)
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Name:sam •
Date: 08/08/12 1:02
A: Dear Indie,
Thank you ,
You said,
1- "I understand your frustration, Sam."
and,
2- "As soon as we begin to talk abot the 'book' from Arabia in the 7th century, we Occidentals wonder is someone is going to slit our throat if we ask an innocent question on historicity....."
As for #1 , that is completely wrong. What I am trying to bring to you is the truth, and not by what the Muslim say, but by what the many Christians said, as Dr. Ehrman, and Dr. Brown, and there are a lot of work done by those scholars not for the love one religion or hate others, but only to find the truth, that is all what matter.
There was another debate between Ehrman and Evans in Canada, and I think that one more interresting than the first one:
Bart Ehrman vs Craig Evans, Jan 19 2012
- On January 19, 2012 Bart Ehrman and Craig Evans squared off in debating the question "Does the New Testament present a reliable portrait of the Historical Jesus?"
As for # 2 , The Idea of , "slit our throat if we ask an innocent question on historicity.." & "The idea of the spread of Islam by the 'sword'.
Both are fabrication and lies which the Christians and the jews used all the time to picture Islam as a violant religion.
The truth is quite the oposite.
The violant stories in the Bible and the killing of men, women , children and animals by the sword is recorded, and that went on until this time.
There is big different between those who kill deffending themselves and those who transgress, and the worse of it that they do it in the name of their god Jesus.
The word "SWORD" mentioned 200 times in the Bible while in the Quran never mentioned.
Indie, the first time I knew about 'youtube', that was when you asked me to watch , 'Islam in Spain' , and in that video we learn how the Jews and Chrisltian lived side by side with Muslims , and they learn together and work together and they were free to practice their religion, while just before that people burned alive if they try think or write freely.
But when the Christians soldiers ocupy others land they try to kill and slave people, and the people of the churches were supporting and blessing the killing, that is true if you know the history, and you should know more than me about the American Indian. And after that the Indian took the religion of their masters and so the blacks, even they could not read or write, and now they are Christian who hate Islam as their masters told them, and my question did any one of them try to find the truth like Dr. Ehrman, and Dr Brown.
If they try the will be excomminicated and hated.
I do believe in Jesus and I do love Him, and His words are the whole truth if you know.
Take care, and have good time ,
God bless you.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 08/08/12 17:19
A: .
Wednesday August 8th 2012
Hi Sam.
Dear man, please believe me when I say that I understand your pain with respect to Occidental attacks on Orientals.
In the last 24 hours, a White Supremacist has taken innocent lives in a Sikh Temple, and a Mosque has been burnt to the ground, both incidents happening in the US. I am horrified to hear on the tv about the White Supremacist views. What a sad, sad affair these acts constitute.
I am sad beyond words.
The eloquence and the poignant words of the son of one of the slain Sikhs rendered me speechless. I just went completely still and mute after hearing this young man speak about the death of his father, as he quietly held his Mum's hand.
One specialist interviewed on CNN said that there was a vast spike in White Supremacist groups in the US in the weeks following the election of the 1st African American to the White House.
I am sad as well, Sam, to report to you that a coroner fished 19 bullets out of the body of my niece, put there by a young Algerian-Quebec boy in 1989 (December 6th) at the Ăcole Polytechnique. In a letter found in the pants pocket of the shooter, he explained that girls getting an education was robbing university spots away from boys, who deserve, more than girls, to be engineers.
I also did some reading on the death sentence pronounced against an author from southern India, who was born into Islam, for his book on verses that were removed from the 7th century Saoudi Book.
I've not read the books of this author from the south of India.
So I do not know to what extent he was trying to be provocative.
The death sentence pronounced against him is scary.
You and I speak soooooo freely about the imperfections in the Bible.
I am glad that we both can speak so freely about the imperfections of the Bible, without fear of reprisal.
...As in days of old, murder is committed by 'both sides'.
The only way to create a world that moves beyond such polarising acts, is to keep the lines of communication open.
Despite the quiet moments on this site, I am greatful for its existence.
Indie
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Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 08/11/12 10:51
A: .
Hi Sam
I think that professor Ehrman's work will help reduce the death toll in Palestine.
Indie
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Name:sam •
Date: 08/12/12 0:00
A: Hello Indie,
You said:
I think that professor Ehrman's work will help reduce the death toll in Palestine.
I don't think that prof. Ehrman or any of those Christian scholars who done similar work had in mine Palestine, or done it for Palestine, and I don't think that their work will reduce the death in Palestine or in any other country that suffer from the influence of the US and Russia and the other western and eastern power nations, who try to control the world.
From 1948 till this day the Palestinian, and the Arab and the Muslims countries are under attack from all sides. All war and conflicts in the Middle East is the result of the 1948 occupation, I hope that you know this fact, because the western media give a bad picture to the Palestinian and Arab, those who lost their land and pay a very high price those who had no voice to be heard, that is fact.
As for:
"...As in days of old, murder is committed by 'both sides'."
Dear Indie, You talking about individuals or groups who commited murder/crimes, in the days of old or in these days by both sides, and I do agree with you, you lost a niece in 1989, by a crooked man, and I lost my aunt and her unborn baby and one of her twin girl [I mentioned that before if you remeber] by and Israeli air attack on my town, while going to visit my grandmother, many others died that day of 1976. and several houses destroyed.
After that another air attack came on my town and a police station was hit and detroyed and many killed an my younger brother who is a school teacher was in his way to the school when he remember forgetting things at home , so he turned back to hear the sound and see the flames , behind him, and after that escape I brought him and his family here.
Now he is a teacher here, and one of his twin girls is a teacher, and the other works for Ford company as accountant, and his son with computer science degree, he got his own business in creating /developing sites for clients , plus last month he and an Italian freinf they open a pizza restorent in Toronto.
I want you to make a list for the wars in the last 100, 200, 300, 500 years and record all the wars, and all the causalities, in humans and distruction, those been done by Muslims, Christians, Hidu and Buddhists then let us see the fact. Can you do that please.
I say, war between people, tribes, nations are as old as the human race, but there are big difference in the conducts of the wars, and an army in one side might win, but never kills innocent people or destry properties, because his religion tell him to fight only those of whom fights you, and another will use evrything to destroy the others and their land, and none will be saved, and that acoording to their teachings.
No Vietnamese attack the US, but the US, and 20 other nations attack them and kills millions of them , and what about the "AGENT ORANGE" whitch desroys everything on earth
. that is crime and killing million in Iraq for nothing is anothe one and Palatine is another and Algeria is another, and who done all the major crimes in the world ??? and I am not talking about my aunt or your neice, or an attack on a temple or church or mosque.
My wife asked me to prepare the dinner [pizza and soup].
Believe me Indie , what I write does not hold any hate to anyone in this world, whatever their religion are, all what I write is my opinion about things are happening around me everyday and what I read and what I listen to from the others in you tube/ CNN/CBC?FOX/and the many stations in North America.
Take care, and God bless you.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 08/15/12 18:11
A: .
Dear Sam,
You are wrong. You are just wrong.
Any work by any specialist which tries to un-teach literal interpretation of ancient text saves Palestinian lives.
I agree with you : the effects of the domination for 200 years by the British, of the world has shaped how the Orient is treated by the Occident.
Half of my Native relatives and ancestors drank themselves to death because of the effects of the British Empire on aboriginal cultures.
We call the Indian Reservations concentration camps.
We also say that the severing of ties to the land has put all of humanity 'on a Reservation' of sorts. We are all in the same boat. We now need to find ways to recreated societies that allow all to have a tie to the land.
Your grand-father, back in Lebanon, as the sun set, would go out and water the garden. Do you? Do your children? The link to the land in aboriginal spirituality IS a big deal.
If someone says to us that God is above the creation, it meants nothing to us. If you come in and steal our land you steal our tie to the Creator.
Peace,
Indie
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Name:sam •
Date: 08/16/12 18:56
A: Hello Indie,
Thank you for your answer.
My answer to your post :
"You are wrong. You are just wrong."
--- Maybe I am wrong, and you are right .
"Any work by any specialist which tries to un-teach literal interpretation of ancient text saves Palestinian lives."
--- But if you are right, please explain to me how can the works of Ehrman and others can save Palestinian lives?. Do they have influence over the policies of the State/Europe & Israel ?. Can they bring back the millions of refugees back to their own land Palestine ?. There are many other questions but let you answer these few first.
"I agree with you : the effects of the domination for 200 years by the British, of the world has shaped how the Orient is treated by the Occident."
--- Thank you. You know that the British were not alone, The French, the Italian, the Portugese , the Spanish, the belgian, and others all of them used the big gun to run down the world not in the Orient but in the Americas. They fought each other and they destroyed the American natives cultures, and destoyed the Incas and Mayan civilazations.
"Half of my Native relatives and ancestors drank themselves to death because of the effects of the British Empire on aboriginal cultures."
--- You are right, but what about the French and the Spaniard ?.
"We call the Indian Reservations concentration camps."
--- You are right, and I call Palestine a concentration camp , and the Tibet too.
"We also say that the severing of ties to the land has put all of humanity 'on a Reservation' of sorts."
--- The followings are 4 verses from the Quran:
Q- 49:13 O MANKIND, INDEED WE HAVE CREATED YOU FROM MALE AND FEMALE AND MADE YOU PROPLE AND TRIBES THAT YOU MAY KNOW ONE ANOTHER. INDEED, THE MOST NOBLE OF YOU IN THE SIGHT OF ALLAH [GOD] IS MOST RIGHTEOUS OF YOU.....
7:56 AND CAUSE NOT CORRUPTION UPON THE EARTH AFTER ITS REFORMATION...
7:85 ......THERE HAS COME TO YOU CLEAR EVIDENCE FROM YOUR LORD. SO FULFILL THE MEASURE AND WEIGHT AND DO NOT DEPRIVE PEOPLE OF THEIR DUE AND CAUSE NOT CORRUPTION UPON THE EARTH AFTER ITS REFORMATION. THAT IS BETTER FOR YOU....
5:32 ......WHOEVER KILLS A SOUL UNLESS FOR A SOUL OR FOR CORRUPTION DONE IN THE LAND IT IS AS IF HE HAD SLAIN MANKIND ENTIRELY. AND WHOEVER SAVES ONE IT IS AS IF HE HAD SAVED MANKIND ENTIRELY....
Dear Indie, The earth, the sun, the moon, the stars are not ours, and the land on earth and the sea are not ours, we are visitors passing by, we come and we go not by our will, we came with nothing and we will leave with nothing, and we did not create the world not even ourselves.
The words of God in the Quran, tells us that we were created from a male and female, to become people and tribes, to know each other [to be good the each other and not to hate and kill one another], and HE asked us to take care of the land ,and not destroy it, the land which HE gave it to us.
" We are all in the same boat. We now need to find ways to recreated societies that allow all to have a tie to the land."
---- Are those 4 verses from the words of God are giving us a guide to follow, for better relation between the people and their relation to the earth. Is there any saying in the Bible similar to what came in the Quran. If so, please let me know.
"Your grand-father, back in Lebanon, as the sun set, would go out and water the garden. Do you? Do your children? The link to the land in aboriginal spirituality IS a big deal."
--- That is if there is water, and no use to water the land if we did not put the seed in it first ,[otherwise we will get weed only] , and we should know that we did not create the seed of what we are going to plant, and not the seeds of the weeds which come by itself, or the seed of everything alive including ourselves, so how can we forget the creator who created everything and put our spirituality on something been created, a land, or sun or cow or any other thing ?.
---- Above, you gave a small picture , in it a garden , a person, and water... etc., while in a bigger picture, the earth, the billions of people, the water, and a land with millions of species which most of them do not need a human to water them in the sun set, an they doing well.
You took the land as the major things, while in fact it is just a part of many. You forget the sun and the air, and the cycle of water, which comes from the salty seas, and you forget the seeds which comes before watering the land, did you come to ask from where we got them ?
I look at at the bigger picture, and I can see the earth and all what on it as one part of God creation , and cannot be separated from our universe, without the sun there is no life on the earth. People worshipped the sun at one time as you know, and it is a spiritual thing , so do the earth become our spiritual way ?.
"If someone says to us that God is above the creation, it meants nothing to us."
---- What 'GOD' means to you?. Do you believe in 'GOD'?, and as HE is the only 'CREATOR' or not ?, are you a Christian today or you changed your mind ?. Please let me know .
" If you come in and steal our land you steal our tie to the Creator."
---- If It is the 'land' is your tie to the 'creator', then what about when you are gone ?, are you takin the land with you ?.
If you are talking in the native American tougue when one tribe takes the other tribe land the one who lost his land and moved to another land will lose his tie with the creator?. And the people of Palestine whom their land stolen from them are they going to lose their tie with the creator ?.
The 'native American' will, because their belief in the creator is false and depend on the land , while the Palestinians their tie to the 'creator' will not change because it is buit on their firm understanding to what is the creator is.
Peace,
God bless you.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 08/17/12 14:05
A: .
Friday August 17th 2012
Hello Sam,
Why does text analysis save Palestinian lives?
In the evenings of my stay in Jerusalem, we would go out for tea in the Souks in the Arab quarter. I had some of the strangest conversations in the Souks of Jerusalem.
Sam, have you ever seen the movie "2012", in which Woody Harrelson plays a the role of a 'conspiracy nut' who has his own radio show and web site in order to preach to people about the end of the world?
The film includes references to Mayanism, the Mesoamerican Long Count calendar and prophesies about 2012 events.
The film portrays cataclysmic events unfolding in the year 2012 resulting from polar shift in the earth's crust.
When I was in Jerusalem, I met some pretty strange people.
When I saw the film "2012", I remember laughing at the "Charlie Frost" (played by actor Woody Harrelson), because I met some people like that in Jerusalem.
Those who believe in end-of-world predictions in an exact way are called doomsday believers.
Christians who read the bible as if it contains exact descriptions of events to come in the futur are doomsday believers. Romney is a member of a religion which strongly believes in prophesies in the Bible. His religion, Mormon Religion, began in the US in the middle of the 1800s. The main center for this church is in the State of Utah. Although the member say they believe in Jesus as God, most Americans who are Evangelical say that the Mormon religion (Mormonism) is not a true religion. Evangelicals say that Mormons are not Christian.
Evangelicals believe strongly in the prophesies about Jerusalem.
So, when Romney visits Jerusalem, he gets up on his soapbox (expression that means he goes in front of the cameras) and calls Jerusalem the capital of Israel and says he will move the US embasy to from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.
He is trying to get Evangelicals in the US to think he is a Christian.
He is trying to get Evangelicals to believe that Mormons are Christians.
He is trying to get Evangelicals to vote for him in November of 2012.
It is one thing to talk about an Evangelical interpretation of the Bible when you are in front of a camera somewhere in the US.
It is another to talk about an Evangelical interpretation of the Bible when you are standing in front of a camera in Jerusalem.
For a man of his momentary importance to promote a Zionist view of Israel is dangerous. I am all for preserving the historical evidence of ancient sites in Israel.
You mention the Palestinian refugees in your post above;
I landed in Amman when I went to the Middle East. I drove by the camps where Palestinians from Jerusalem were living in tents. Hundreds of thousands of them. Talk about an Exodus...
Anyway, what I am getting at is this :
- one son of Abraham has kicked another out of his home, to claim it as his own.
Sam, have you seen the film "Kingdom Of Heaven"?
The Director, Mr. Ridley Scott, does something interesting when the victorious Saladin (played by Syrian actor Ghassan Massoud) enters a Christian church he bends downs and picks up a Christian chalice and places it back on a table.
The camera shot is done in slow motion.
Director Scott does this for a reason.
It is a sign of respect by the Muslim King for the faith of those he has conquered.
Jerusalem should not be a political center.
Jerusalem should be a Trinity of Temples.
Jerusalem should be where three tribes come to pray.
Jerusalem's history should be preserved; not fought over.
No tribe should wipe out the other.
How people behave in that city is influenced by what is written in a Book: the Bible; it follows logically that how you read (interpret) that Book will impact how the tribes treat each other.
If an exegete (a Bible historian, language expert and text analyst sheds light on how the texts came to be, new information about the past comes to light; Some Christians who visit Palestine think it is perfectly okay for Palestinian to be displaced. They think that way becaus of how they read the Bible. Exegetes can help to relax the extreme views of those who interpret the Bible in a fundamentalist way.
Well, my kids are telling me to get up and take them out.
I have to go.
Oh, I found the English title of the "Le cochon de Gaza" (The Pig Of Gaza).
The movie's English title is "When Pigs Have Wings".
Did you see it?
Peace,
Indie
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Name:sam •
Date: 08/17/12 23:09
A: Dear Indie,
God bless you & your children. Your family comes first, anything else should come next.
My grandson (13) attended a one month camp [YMCA] (boys only), a beautiful camp on a lake in Massachusetts. No phone, TV, computer, etc., for three weeks a total separation from his Mom & Dad.
Then, the fathers are allowed to come bringing tent to stay with their sons, and one day [Saterday] for them to share with the sport activities of their children, and there were a lot it, and the mothers will come on Sunday for other activities in the camp.
The fathers asked to say a speech, and my son gave a good one, which was well accepted by all. He told me that after the speech most of them came to shake hands, and three of them wanted to be in touch for their children became a very good freinds.
Each cabin room have 4 bunk bed, and 8 children, and my Amir was a leader, and built a good team, and was loved by his freinds. 3 of his freinds were Jews, and the funy thing that their fathers who came to my asking to keep the good freindship between thei children and his son.
I asked my son about his speech, and he read it for me, because he kept the paper, and it started with, "Every man can be a father, but to be a 'Dad' that need a lot of work and sacrifice", , that followed by his experience in bringing his son in the right way.
My grandson is a very fine young man, last year there a school trip to NY & Washington DC for his class, but a couple could not afford it , knowing that he went on his bike all around town to collect enough money to take his freinds in the trip.
Tomorrow, Saterday will back home and I am waiting to talk to him.
God bless you.
Name:sam •
Date: 08/18/12 0:56
A: Again, Hello Indie,
Thank you for your post.
Yes Indie I saw the movie '2012' the end of the world. before long tong time I wrote about eh biggining of the world as been calculated by a Bishop, and here it is :
Ussher's Chronology
Actually, scripture nowhere says how old the earth is, at least not directly. (It also doesn't say how God created, or why.) Why, then, do so many believe that the earth isn't very old? There are two scriptural reasons. Both assume that the creation of Adam and Eve took place very close to the beginning of the earth. One of these scriptural reasons is that it is possible to use the genealogies in Genesis to come up with an age for the earth. Bishop Ussher famously did that. I personally have a bible with Ussher's chronology in it. He calculated that creation took place in 4004 B.C. The other scriptural reason is the description of creation events as being a week, or rather six days, in length, and the belief that this week included most prehistoric events. The terms suggesting a week for creation occur not only in Genesis, but also in the Ten Commandments, so it is impossible to dismiss the idea as simply based on non-literal material from the beginning of Genesis.
Archbishop
James Ussher of Armagh, Ireland, calculated from the Bible (augmented by some astronomy and numerology) that creation began on October 23, 4004 BC.
Indie, do you think that anyone can know the facts about the exact day of the beggining or the end of this world ?, and what you think about Dec. 21/2012 & Oct. 23/4004 BC?
Jesus said:
Mat.35/36 ......BUT OF THAT DAY [the last day] AND HOUR NO ONE KNOWS, NOT EVEN THE ANGELS OF HEAVEN, NOR THE SON, BUT THE FATHER ALONE.
The Quran 7:187 They ask you, [O Muhammad], about the hour: when is its arrival? Say, "ITS KNOWLEDGE IS ONLY WITH MY LORD. none will reveal its time except HIM. It lays heavely upon the heaven and the earth. It will not come upon you except unexpectly." They ask you as if you are familiar with it. Say, "ITS KNOWLEDGE IS ONLY WITH ALLAH [GOD], but most of the people do not know."
So, Jesus words and the Quran words both agree to that, and I do agree to it, because I do believe in Jesus and the Quran words.
In a previous post I wrote about the Palestinian refugees in my town in Baalbeck Lebanon.
1948, I was 10 years old, and one evening many trucks came bringing refugees, and went on for many days, the town population were about 5000, and the refugess who landed in the town 5000 they give them several buildings from the army camp , 4 families to one room and , others ended in tents.
All the people in the town try to do their best in supporting them and specially looking after the children.
My family took care of one family and their 2 girls lived with us until they get married.
I agree with You for what you said, "How people behave in that city is influenced by what is written in a Book: the Bible; it follows logically that how you read (interpret) that Book will impact how the tribes treat each other. "
It is clear in the Bible, and in the story about Abraham's wives, that there was a hate to Hagar and her son , also it is clear the way that it represent the distuction of town and killing everything in it including the animal by the Jews , and that is what the people of the Bible follow, and no onw try to remember what Jesus came to teach after about love .
"They think that way becaus of how they read the Bible"
THAT IS TRUE, for 2000 years, and for the many billions of Christians, they do do believe that the Bible is the words of God, but thanks to prof. Bart Ehrman and the many others who brought the truth about the Bible, which been written by men, and it is filled with contradictions and false stories, all been attached to the true words of Jesus.
Christians and Jews will keep holding to that book no matter what, because it is the only way to keep them together in their standing against the Muslims, also because to show them how they can deal with their n# 1 enemy and destoy them as in what came in their Bible. [Hindus & Buddhists are a good people even they do not believe in God or in Jesus, while the Muslim do.!]
