Name:KRS •
Title: Recalculating the Stats •
Date posted: 03/07/07 5:42
Q: OK, I went through the site to recalculate the statistics with the three names that can actually be established (leaving out Mariamne due to the problems with the identification). They identified Yesus bar Yoseph as 1 in 190, and Maria as 1 in 4, but I can't find info on the propbabilities of Yose - the only notation that I've found is how often the name is found on ossuaries, I know of few other places where the name is found outside of the New Testament and there are two people definetely cited in the New Testament and it might possibly have been Barnabus name (Acts 4:36, the text is at issue, and the major witness favor Yoseph, but based on transcriptional probability that seems less likely to me).
Does anyone know what number they used on the probability for someone named Yoseh? Also the formula they used? I'm not sure of the validity of their numbers, but I need a starting point, and matching to their work is probably the best place to start.
Name:KRS •
Date: 03/09/07 4:35
A: I've worked through the stats without the presence of Miriamne, and come up with 1 in 3.8. I'm next to develop this on the basis of population and families from first century Jerusalem. I've gone through once with some pretty hypothetical numbers, but my best starting point for this type of data is out of state at the moment, and I amd not very close to a theological library. Does anyone have some numbers? Any mathmaticians willing to rework this?
Name:KRS •
Date: 03/09/07 5:39
A: I made one more change, as I looked at the formula, I realized that I probably needed to change the number I used in step three to three rather than 4; that gave me a conclusion of 1 in 5.067.
Again, I'm not a mathmatician, so I'd like a double check on this from someone else. This is still operating on tombs, rather than on number of families, and some info there would be useful for further calculations.
Name:golfdane •
Date: 03/09/07 15:33
A: If I had 20% chance of winning the lottery, I would buy at least 5 tickets.
These odds are good enough for me to spend a few bucks on the lottery....
What stats did you use on Yose, and how big a population?
I found some namestats on wikipedia (search for Talpiot Tomb).
What are the stats if you include Yakov into your calculations (just for kicks)?
Name:jsm •
Date: 03/09/07 16:27
A: First off I would consider reexamining the stats that were provided in the show. When your dealing with stats or mathematics in general you don't take anything as fact, you always recheck your foundation. I would like to know how they could possibly know how many people were around that area and second how they could possibly know how many people had what names. I personally didn't watch the show so I'm not sure what route they took to get around that problem. They probably do what the media does with their "polls" 75% of America believe in this... but I was never asked, you were never asked, only a very very small portion of a small suburb of New York was. They choose areas that would give them good stats and leave out the areas that would give them bad stats.
Name:Patty •
Date: 03/09/07 16:32
A: Hi, some of these questions are being answered at www.JesusDynasty.com
Patty
Name:Patty •
Date: 03/09/07 16:32
A: Sorry, that is www.JesusDynasty.com/blog
Name:sadinoel •
Date: 03/09/07 16:33
A: Hey golfdane don't you need to also factor the cost of the tickets? If you had to pay 1 Millioin per ticket and there is only 2 Millioin paid to the winner, I think you would reconsider.
My point, is that it's silly for people to just "believe" this stuff without further examination. And every source of examination I have seen indicates its more than likely a bogus claim designed to make money off the gullable masses... kind of like some claim religion to be.
Name:KRS •
Date: 03/09/07 20:31
A: JSM, I agree with you that this needs to be checked, and I have four questions about their data pool; many of which may not have an answer from their data. I don't have access to that info from here (considering the low quality of most internet resources on NT studies). Its down and dirty, but I'm looking for data to use if I'm asked on Sunday.
Golfdane, I'm using their numbers entirely, drawn from a PDF they themselves compiled. One big problem is we have no way of knowing how many joseph's were also known as Joseh, and most Joseh's would more likely have the more formal version of their name put into print. Remember as well, this doesn't mean that there is a 2 in 3 chance this is Jesus tomb; they sort of misapplied their own statistics. So I'm using the same statistical probability they are. As for Jacov, adding this in wouldn't make a great change to the numbers, but again, you have to operate only on what you can substatiate. Before adding Jacov in, we have to prove that this was present in the tomb, that nullifies the purpose of the argument.
Name:jsm •
Date: 03/10/07 2:31
A: The place that I would start first would be to make sure beyond a doubt that the names that the show was implying were on the cases were the actual names. Because somebody that went by mike their whole life, might be buried with the name Michael on his stone. Because you can do the stats all day long, but if your doing the stats with the wrong name even if its one letter off, your whole data set is wrong. Or if something was an "m", after years of wear might turn into an "n". I wish I knew ancient languages so I could investigate more, because some of the images I seen of the cases with them drawing what it says over the letters on the case, some of them look like their drawing lines where I personally don't see any lines to make up letters. So that is where I would start my research if I were you.
Name:KRS •
Date: 03/10/07 2:55
A: Thanks, JSM,
I did do that, already (fortunately I read Greek and to a lesser degree Hebrew, with some knowledge of Aramaic). We all have our places in the body, so there is no reason to worry about not reading an ancient language. I can deal with the philosophical presuppositions and the logical, moral consequences in a lot of areas in the evolution debate, but when it comes to specific evidences, I'm out of my league very quickly, and I known it. (Hence the double check on the quick, dirty redo - I'm not very conversant with advanced probability theory).
FYI, a lot of times with ancient language sources, there can be a little guess work (I know of at least one scholar who has questioned the Jesus Ossuary, for example, and that ossuary is particularly difficult among these - ironically, if any of these ossuaries is mis-named its this one!) A lot of people who could read, couldn't write very legibly (particularly with a chisel, I imagine).
Name:jsm •
Date: 03/10/07 3:12
A: KRS,
"A lot of people who could read, couldn't write very legibly (particularly with a chisel, I imagine)."
Thats what I was thinking. I seen a clip from the show and I think they were leading to the conclusion that Jesus's disciples were the ones that hid his body and later buried him. So obviously somebody with the talent to write (chisel) into stone was not involved considering if they supposedly "hid" him, they didn't want people to know who it really was. So that would mean one of the very select few would be doing the chiseling. If you consider that, I'd imagine the work would be very sloppy. I know mine would be. Also if it were to be Jesus who was buried I'd imagine something more would be wrote then "Jesus son of Joseph" since it was the son of God. But on the other hand if they were really trying to "hide" him and secretly bury him. Wouldn't the logical conclusion be that you wouldn't write anything at all? Just something I was thinking.
Name:KRS •
Date: 03/10/07 4:03
A: There are a lot of problems like this, I agree; it does seem improbable. One other thing that was mentioned on this board (and I was slightly irritated with myself for not thinking of it of myself) was the fact that if the remains of a crucified individual had been found it would have made headlines - we know that because it has happened since. Even more telling, if a bone box with someone named Jesus, son of Joseph was found with a victim of crucifixcion, it would have brought about a great deal more attention.
I think that this is something they would have been able to identify - and even non-Christian sources (Tacitus) notes the crucifxcion.
Name:KRS •
Date: 03/10/07 18:44
A: Double checking a few things that are going into my packet, I'm now pretty sure that the lower number (1 in 3.8) is more accurate (I was not sure why specifically they divided by four - was it for questions about the data from the sources or was it because there were four ossuaries listed in the tomb; it looks like the former is more precise).
Additionally I've refigured the numbers for population - sort of. I haven't got the sources here to go through and find a reference to work with that I would consider well developed. From memory, taking what I know of the wide range in estimates of 1st century Jerusalem's population, I'm working with a number for my "working revised" statistics of 40,000 families. The number is probably between 50,000 to 75,000, but I want to err on the side of caution. That being the case, I came up with a number of 1 in .38; but I'm not sure how to interpret this. Do I use this as a percentage value, or do I use this as a reference in some other way, or does this simply prove that it is mathmatically impossible to deal with the info presented.
The next step is to work with the problems with the formula they used, itself. I'll post three things that I think are necessary to add into the equation. I'm adding that in the next post.
Name:KRS •
Date: 03/10/07 19:27
A: The above post notes what I think can be done using their data and their formulation of the probability. Its a quick, dirty re-examination - which isn't as accurate as it should be, but is more accurate than the probability that they have listed. Next time I'm in SC, I'll try to start getting a more firm number that can be used for population stats, and checking some of their works on name frequency.
As to revising the statistical model, however, I'm not quite sure how it should be done. The following link is some of their source material that they are making available for analysis if anyone else can look over the formula and see if they have additional data : http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/tom-b/explore/media/tomb_evidence.pdf
Now-,- I think the formula needs to be rewritten to take into account the following:
1. The assumptions above only work if we are assuming that the tomb contains the bones of two generations. However, this is a multi-generational tomb, and it is likely that the some of the ossuaries with inscribed names that are necessary for their case are three or four generations apart (i.e. Mary in this tomb could be the grandmother or Great Grandmonther of Jeshua bar joseph instead of his mother). I'm looking for the report from the 1996 report on the tomb by Amos Kloner, but it make take a while to find a copy, that might provide a way of estimating how many generations are actually found in the tomb (assuming it includes the number of remains present).
2. We need to find a way of dealing with the missing names present. Of Jesus brothers, 1 is named in the tomb, there are some who think a second name might possibly be in the tomb. Of Jesus brothers two clearly aren't mentioned. Acts 1:14 puts the brothers of Jesus and Mary in Jerusalem, but we don't know how many remained there and for how long, tradition aserts that Judah became James successor to James in Jerusalem, but it also asserts his desendants lived in Galilee. Of the others, we have no real data to go on. I would think that we need to include some formulation for the missing names of some of his family that might have, but might not have remained in Jerusalem.
3. Additionally, we need to take into account the number of bites at the apple each name has on the ten ossuaries. If I mix up a deck of cards, and randomly deal you 10 cards, you are far more likely to have all four aces from the deck than if I only dealt you four cards.
4. We also need to take into account the higher probability that someone whose father's name was Joseph is far more likely to be buried in a tomb with someone whose name is a diminuative for Joseph than someone whose father had a completely different name.
5. We need to take into account that the name Jesus son of Joseph is not completely legible; the last two radicals are fairly clear, but the first two are somewhat less easily read.
Is there anything I've left out that needs to be added into a more accurate probability formula? Does anyone have any idea how these factors should be factored in?
I'll post an open letter by the Dr Andrey Feuerverger, who did the probability work for the documentary, it provides something of the methodology employed, if its helpful.
Name:KRS •
Date: 03/10/07 19:29
A: Dear Statistical Colleagues, Version of 11 pm, March 4, 2007.
This site is addressed to statistical colleagues who have been
requesting information about a calculation being widely reported
in the media concerning a certain tombsite found in Jerusalem
some time ago. It is proving difficult for me to respond individually
to requests for information about these calculations and hope that
the information provided here will prove helpful. Although this site
is open for all to read, it is addressed specifically to the
statistical community and may be updated occasionally.
The versions of computations appearing in the media are only
simplifications. Furthermore, the results of any such
computations depend heavily on the assumptions that go into it.
Some of these assumptions will be summarized below.
The frequency distribution for names prevalent during the
period of time during which ossuary burials took place was
inferred by studying two key sources, specifically Rahmani's
(1994) Catalogue of Jewish Ossuaries in the Collections of the
State of Israel, and Tal Ilan's (2002) Lexicon of Jewish Names
in Late Antiquity.
The probability of obtaining the particular configuration of
names observed under random sampling from the onomasticon
(i.e. from the names distribution) is small but that fact is not
statistically relevant. What is more relevant is the total
probability of obtaining not only that particular cluster but
also any other cluster of names that is equally or more
`compelling' than the one observed. In carrying out such
computations I have conditioned on information which I regard
as being ancillary, specifically, that there are two inscribed
ossuaries for women, each of which bears the name of only
one (female) person, and that there are four inscribed ossuaries
of men, two of which bear the name of only one (male) person,
and two of which are of the form `Son of Father' with these
two being in a generational sequence.
A `null hypothesis' can be thought of here as asserting that
this cluster of names arose purely by chance under random sampling
from the onomasticon. The alternative hypothesis is the opposite
of this, in some sense. It is not in the purview of statistics
to conclude whether or not this tombsite is that of the New
Testament family. Any such conclusion much more rightfully
belongs to the purview of biblical historical scholars who are
in a much better position to assess the assumptions entering
into the computations. The role of statistics here is primarily
to attempt to assess the odds of an equally (or more) `compelling'
cluster of names arising purely by chance under certain random
sampling assumptions and under certain historical assumptions.
In this respect I now believe that I should not assert any
conclusions connecting this tomb with any hypothetical one
of the NT family. The interpretation of the computation should
be that it is estimating the probability of there having been
another family at the time living in Jerusalem whose tomb this
might be, under certain specified assumptions.
An analogue of a `tail area' for `testing' these hypotheses might be
obtained via the following proposed paradigm. This paradigm may
also be thought of as leading to a probability of obtaining an
equally or more compelling cluster of names under random sampling.
The paradigm involves firstly enumerating (in principle) all
possible outcomes under the random sampling. The sum of the
probabilities of these is one. Next, each outcome which does not
invalidate the alternative hypothesis is assigned a numerical
measure of its degree of closeness and/or relevance to the
`alternative hypothesis'. For instance, in the found cluster,
the name Matya does not appear to invalidate the alternative,
but it otherwise contibutes no evidentiary value, while Yose/Yosa,
which is a relevant name then has two positions in which it
might have occurred. Likewise, Mariamenou e Mara has two positions
in which it might have occured and was (see the assumptions)
treated as being a highly relevant name. The probability of a
configuration (with combinatorial factors included) is then used
as a measure of its closeness. In this paradigm, rarity and
relevancy of names is of essence. The mentioned `tail area'
is obtained by adding together the probabilities of all outcomes
that are as or more relevant (or close) to the alternative
than is the particular cluster that was observed. (Outcomes which
invalidate the alternative -- e.g. had the name `Andrey' appeared --
are assigned a distance of infinity from the alternative.)
The results of any such computations are highly dependent on the
assumptions that enter into it. Here are some of the more important
ones:
-- We assume that the physical facts of the case are as stated.
(Note that the inscriptions on these ossuaries and the fact that
they were provenanced properly do not appear to be under dispute.)
-- We assume that the available onomasticon data is adequately
relevant to the study at hand and that, on a time-cross-sectional
basis, the assignment of names is, for practical purposes,
adequately modelled by assuming independence.
-- We assume that `Marianemou e Mara' is a singularly highly
appropriate appellation for Mary Magdalene. Note that this
assumption is contentious and furthermore that this assumption
drives the outcome of the computations substantially.
-- We assume that Yose/Yosa is a highly appropriate appellation
for the brother of Jesus who is referred to as Joses in
Mark 6:3 of the NT.
-- We assume that the Latinized version Marya is an appropriate
appellation for Mary of the NT.
-- It is assumed that Yose/Yosa is not the same person as the
father Yosef who is referred to on the ossuary of Yeshua.
-- We assume that the presence of Matya does not invalidate the
find but we assign no evidentiary value to it (other than
factoring in its combinatorial role). We also assume that
the Yehuda son of Yeshua ossuary does not invalidate the find
but we ignore it in the computations. This last assumption is
contentious.
-- We assume that this tombsite observation represents the `best'
of many `trials'. It is estimated that there are approximately
4000 inscribed male ossuaries and somewhat fewer than half as
many inscribed female ossuaries in existence. The number of
`trials' is then taken as being approximately 1000.
The computations do not take into account families who could
not afford ossuary burials or who did not have sufficient
literacy to have their ossuaries inscribed, and does not take
into account families living outside of the Jerusalem area.
There are certain additional facts regarding this archeological find
which are of interest, but the precise ways in which they may or may
not enter into statistical computations are debatable. Examples of
these include:
-- The high proportion (6 out of 10) of ossuaries bearing inscriptions,
evidencing a more than typically literate family. As well, the
use of Hebrew/Aramaic script on 5 ossuaries with Greek on only
one of them -- and Greek inscription being thought more appropriate
to someone from Magdal who also preached in Greek speaking areas.
-- The unusual and highly untypical gable over circle carving
on the facade of the tomb which is contentiously being argued
as being symbolic of early Christianity.
-- The apparent absence of `negatives' in the finding, i.e. of
archeological details (other than the ones mentioned here) that
would in and of themselves invalidate `the hypothesis' or
that would appear to lessen its likelihood.
-- Claims about mitochondrial DNA evidence.
-- Contentious claims, backed by claimed spectral patina evidence,
that the contentious James ossuary (with its disputed secondary
inscription) had originated in the same tombsite.
Again, I genuinely apologize to colleagues for being unable to reply
to messages individually and hope that the information here
addresses the most essential queries from the statistical community.
A detailed paper is being prepared and hopefully will undergo timely
peer review; if successful in the refereeing process it will be
made available.
With best
Andrey Feuerverger
P.S. The website of Scientific American carries the results of an
interview with me which seems to be sufficiently accurate to be considered fair.
Name:Red •
Date: 03/10/07 20:03
A: B.s. More denying of the evidence....
He states, and i qoute "The probability of obtaining the particular configuration of names observed under random sampleing is small but the fact is not statistically relevant. what is more relevent is the total probability of not only obtaining that particular cluster, but also ANOTHER cluster of names that is equally or more compelling than the one observed".
Another words those 4 names (jesus, yose, mary, and mary master) mean nothing.
He seeks probability of a cluster of OTHER names, and that cluster must be at LEAST EQUAL TO or more "compelling" (whatever the hell that means) than the original cluster.
This is TOTAL B.S. and this dude knows it.
Name:Red •
Date: 03/10/07 20:16
A: Btw, he's comparing apples to oranges and attempting to make a common COMPARISION based on statitistics.
Any idiot knows he wont find apples on orange trees or vice/versa. That's what he is seeking, by demanding another set of names that occur as much or more (compelling?) than the 4 we have.
The 4 names we have, have got nothing to do with any other 4 names.
If he chose 4 diffrent common names of the time, threw the math at it and determined that they occur at more or less diffrent rates of the 4 we have , it means nothing.
Then, down into the article he admits that it is not his place to determine the thing, and throws it at the church to make a determination if this family is biblical.
He made it pretty clear in the film..... I wonder what changed his mind.... Because he'e talking Jibberish now. This thing reads like a three stooges report....
Name:KRS •
Date: 03/11/07 5:31
A: The letter was supplied as an aid in producing a more accurate probability equation, if you'll check the earlier posts. Since I am not a scientist or a mathmatician, I'm providing factors that, from what I can tell, did not go into the original, but I don't know how or if they can be factored into the matter.
Name:KRS •
Date: 03/11/07 5:32
A: The letter does point to the assumptions underlying the calculations, and has one advantage that the documentary doesn't have: it hasn't been edited before being given to the public.
Name:OldTimer •
Date: 03/11/07 12:16
A: As a minor side observation, the version I saw on Mr. Feververger's homepage is dated March 7, 2007 (no time indication). The date you cited contains the date March 4, 2007 with a time indication of 11pm.
Name:KRS •
Date: 03/12/07 2:01
A: Thanks, oldtimer, he must have updated the version. I'll grab a copy.
Name:pak •
Date: 07/19/07 13:13
A: OK. Here is my "naive statistc".
Lets assume there was 160,000 population in that specific period when assuaries were used.
Lets assume average family has 9 members (2 parents, 7 children; 3.5girls and 3.5 boys). 160,000/9=17,778FAMILIES (not tombs!).
If 25% of women were Mary and 14% men were Joseph, (0.14x0.25x17,778)= in 622 families parents were Maria&Joseph.
Now we know names of children: Jesus(appearance9%), James(2%), Joseph(14%).
How many of 7 children (in average family) would be called Jesus?
7x0.09=0.63. So in 63% of families is 1 Jesus.
James in 14% of familes (7x0.02=0.14) and Joseph in 98% (7x0.14=0.98).
All three names together are in 8.6% families (0.63x0.14x0.98=0.086).
8.6% of 622 families= about 53.
53 families would have parents Joseph&Mary and children Jesus, James, Joseph. It should be much less becouse I actually calculated this as if there were 7 boys instead in average family. If you calculate with 3.5 you get 6 families.
This doesn include names Mariamne and Judah.
I know this is very simplified calculation but what do you think?
Name:Panluna •
Date: 07/19/07 20:55
A: What do you think are the chances for a cluster of names from the New Testament being found in the same tomb?In this case 100%
Name:betty47 •
Date: 07/21/07 13:45
A: It doesn't really matter what the statistics are that this is the Jesus Family Tomb. Whether they are 1 in 60, or 1 in 600, or 1 in 6,000, they are still higher than the probability that Jesus rose from the grave in bodily form. I haven't seen anyone prove that he did other than quoting from the N.T., and that's what born again Christians are afraid of. They are scared to death that someone will find his body and prove Christianity is really based on paganism, half-truths and lies. People should focus on who Jesus was and what he said. Stop telling people they have to be Christian or they will burn in hell, and focus on what Christ said. That's what's important because the probability that he rose from the grave in bodily form is near zero percent or 1 in 6 billion people which is pretty hard to believe.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 07/21/07 15:17
A: Betty47,
Do you think that his appearences after death could indicate that he became a ghost?---a HOLY ghost-----maybe something above all other ghosts---and they exist--I've seen ghosts etc.....The physical remains of the historical Jesus and his family were found in the Talpiot tomb.but the Gospel Jesus appears in spirit----do you think he might have overcome death or is he locked in on an eternal plane held in limbo?My ghost studies show that when someone dies violently they come back to haunt until.....and your guess is as good as mine as to what to do for them.i've seen the spirit of Jesus's mother Mary three times in my life(someone on these posts said it was blessing) and the Monk's ghost still visits.And many people have seen the Spirit Mary at Lourdes,Fatima, my home etc...There are many active spirits and I wonder how haunted the Middle East is.Could this be the meaning for the phrase "And the (Cosmic)Sea shall give up it's dead(Secrets)?
What would the statistics prove in regards to spectral visitations and the number of people capable of "seeing" these holy ghosts?or do they appear to anyone?--psychic or not.....
Name:betty47 •
Date: 07/22/07 5:02
A: Panluna: That's an excellent question. I don't know. But I'm not convinced Jesus appeared to anyone. Have you read the lastest update from James Tabor on the jesusdynasty.com blog? He argues that many of the sightings of Jesus were made up to prove that he rose from the dead and to convince skeptics that he was the Son of God. I'm more inclined to believe Dr. Tabor then many of the people on this site who refuse to have an open mind. Eye witness accounts are known to be often false so I'm not sure people saw anything after Jesus died that proved he rose from the dead in spirit or in body. I do believe; however, that there is something supernatural out there. I don't have all the answers unlike all the born again Christians who think they know everything.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 07/22/07 15:41
A: Hi Betty47,
Have you read the section on this website titled Holy Books?It's on the left-hand side of these posts.Jesus appeared to his disciples for 11 years in a transfigured form to guide and instruct.Also Saint Padre Pio was touched and blessed by Jesus after he appeared to him in the early years of the 20th century.Most people never use the 90% of their mind's capability so they shut off the part that sees beyond the tangible world around them.One has to activate the third eye and connect with the higher-self which works at a faster vibration than our slower,denser bodies do.Meditation is the key.I listed some books in The spiritual/religious book club topic that JMD started.This is also what Gnosis is about--a connection with the inner kingdom Jesus believed in.It's subjective.
Just because someone has never seen a ghost,spirit or angel doesn't mean that they don't exist on their plane level and cross-over to visit on ours.The spirit world just hasn't been proven scientificly,yet- at least not on scientific terms of measurement and testing--only by recorded experiences,myths,religion and claims of the viewer-recipiant that can prove the existance of the super-natural world.
Just to let you know:I'm not a born -again Christian.I'm a seeker of knowledge,truth and wisdom.Anything is possible in this world and the next.And there is no philosophy or religion higher than the Truth.
Name:betty47 •
Date: 07/22/07 23:08
A: Yes. Panluna. I think you're very open minded. One of the few on this site who is. I'm open to the possibilities of ghosts. Also to UFO's. I just don't know. There's more to find out. I think we still have a lot to learn regarding physics, space and time and dimensions.
Granted I still need actual rather than estimated values for Ad, Rtp and Nifc, but I am working on getting those.
13. CONCLUSIONS
Bayes equation, the basic formula commonly used to evaluate conditional probabilities, is the correct equation for evaluating the probabilities associated with the level of matching found between the Talpiot Tomb and the Gospel Jesus Family. Section 4.5.1 proves that Bayes equation is the correct formula for evaluating the probability for this type of problem. Thus, any formulation that is not consistent with Bayes equation would be invalid. Section 4.5.1.7 shows that the Feuerverger formulation is incorrect for the many reasons listed in Section 8.1. Other methods are also shown incorrect in Section 4.5.1.3.
Section 5 lists the equations that are used in Bayes equation to determine the extont and nonextont probability for the level of matching found between the Talpiot Tomb and the Gospel Jesus Family. The extont is fundamentally based on the number of other Jesus son of Josephs that could have been placed in the Talpiot Tomb. The nonextont is fundamentally based on the number of found inscribed male names on ossuaries that aside from their specific name would be consider as candidate ossuaries for the Gospel Jesus just as the Talpiot Tomb ossuaries are by TLTJ. Based on the calculations in Section 7 conservative odds of at least 59:1 against the Talpiot Tomb containing the Gospel Jesus are odds are determined. The nonextont probability cannot be used to directly measure argument strength; however, it’s value of at least 0.669 is very high and is order of magnitudes higher than a minimum standard used in science use to make a significant argument. The probabilities imply that the match found is at a level well expected to occur just by random. Thus, valid probabilistic analysis of TLTJ clearly does not imply the Gospel Jesus was buried in the Talpiot Tomb.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 07/24/07 13:24
A: R3,
The Bayes equation is a too complicated for me to understand.I'm not a mathematician.But I agree with your conclusion that the Gospel Jesus wasn't buried in the Talpiot tomb--He stills lives in the words of the Gospels and in the Faith of the Christians.
The physical remains of the historical Jesus and family members were discovered in the Talpiot tomb in 1980 then reburied according to Jewish custom in a cemetary in Isreal designated for citizens of antiquity.
Thank you for presenting another angle to ponder.I'll ask my son who graduated from DeVry to explain your equation.All I know is that if tangible facts are presented then even the incredible can be proven.
Name:r3 •
Date: 07/24/07 18:55
A: What I mean by the Gospel Jesus in the historical Jesus which the Gospel discuss. You do not present any calculation to support the position that the Historical Gospel Jesus was buried in the Talpiot Tomb, but you declare it so. I presented proof that Feuerverger formulation is incorrect and proved Bayes equation is correct. Then I show the Bayes method does not imply Historical Gospel Jesus was buried in the Talpiot Tomb.
I am a scientist so it is no use to declare something true to me that I have proven false. It is useless to declare something true that you have no substantiation for. If you know my method is wrong than show where in the formulation it is wrong, otherwise it is evident that your claim that the Historical Gospel Jesus was buried in the Talpiot Tomb is unsubstantiated.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 07/24/07 22:11
A: R3,
OY!!!!!
Name:Panluna •
Date: 07/24/07 22:45
A: R3,
I get it!!You are from the opposition camp.How about going point by point so that I can understand it better.Maybe i'll give you formula then...go slow I'm blonde.ha ha
Name:r3 •
Date: 07/25/07 0:15
A: by saying the Historical Gospel Jesus I do not mean to imply the Gospels are or are not historical. I just need a term to differenatiate from all those other Historical Jesus.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 07/25/07 12:50
A: R3,
The Historical Jesus is the man who was born ,lived was crucified ,died and was "ressurected" according to eye-witnesses in the first century.In 1980 he and his family were rediscovered and reburied.He became the Gospel Jesus and a figure of much conjecture and debate for over 2000 years when the Bible was expanded with the addition of the New Testament account 300 years after his death.it's up to the individual to decide what the ressurection means.In Christian theology that is the main point of discussion in addition to the Messionic Prophecies and the 2nd Coming due at the Endtimes.
Granted that the name Yeshua--Jewish form of his name--was very popular and so were the different variations of Mary and Joseph..There could be many tombs yet to be discovered with these commonly used names,but not all of the tombs contain the same name-cluster that matches the group of names in the New Testament of the Bible.The clincher was the epigram on Mary Magdalene's ossuary--which was a limestone bone-box-- and the fore-runner of the coffin--used in the funerary practises for about a century.Prior to the ossuary culture,cremation on a funeral pyre and placing ashes in funerary urns was the burial practice.Or cannibalism in some primitive cultures.
Using the text from various sources like the book s of Phillip, and Mary,the Gospels,Dead Sea scrolls etc..explained what their lives were like in those days.if there had been a reliable historian like Josephus or someone else we might have gotten a different version of these events.
The discovery of the tomb does not minimise the importance of Jesus' life--it just proves that he lived and died in the 1st century.Had a family etc.. what you learn from the Bible is up to you.It's always been a very good source of inspiration and history.
Name:r3 •
Date: 07/25/07 13:18
A: You claim the Gospels are just stories but do not substantiate it. I proved that science does not support TLTJ, but you claim TLTJ is true by just saying it so. Show me when my scientific formulation is wrong, otherwise it is evident that you are claiming something true that has been shown to you by science to be false.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 07/25/07 17:48
A: R3,
Science never proved the TLTJ false.As a matter of fact the evidence in the investigation and test results substantiate and prove the theory that the Talpiot tomb is the real one.I don't HAVE to prove any of this because the team of experts have already done the work.I'm just an interested person who likes to be kept informed.It affected me profoundly and I re-examined my faith.Fortunately i'm educated enough to analyze new ideas and mature enough to accept facts especially from evolving new ideas that surface and enlighten me.
As far as my using the word stories interchangably with the word gospel just simply has to do with how I was taught the Bible stories as a child.The Gospels enhance the truth about Jesus and his life especially the Apocryphal texts and other related writtings.
Why do you doubt it so much?Math only solves math problems.It doesn't solve everything in life's equations.Inteligence and education can bring enlightenment to this formula.And accepting the Absolute as an undisputable fact....for example : a rose is a rose by any name.
Name:r3 •
Date: 07/26/07 5:21
A: In section 4.5.1 I present the method for checking if probability formulas correctly calculate a proability value by comparing the value to the probability calculated directly. So there is no excuse for just blindly believing experts when there is method to check their formulas. In Section 4.5.1.7 I show mathematically that the experts Panluna basis his claim on have incorrectly calculated the probability value for problems of the TLTJ type. Their formula calculates a probability value of 0.0156 and the correct value is 0.07143 for a certain hypothetical problem. So to believe thie analysis is valid is equivalent to believing 0.0156 is equal to 0.07143. Panluna would normally not believe such a contradiction; thus, for him to rationally defend his position he must show that my Section 4.5.1.7 analysis is incorrect. I also show that bayes equation correctly calculates the probability value for problems of the TLTJ type. Any unbiased probability professor would tell you bayes equation solves conditional probabilties. Calculating the probabilities for the Jesus Son of Jospeh Ossuarry found in the condition of being found with the others is a conditional probability problem. Then in Section 7.2, I conservatively show that the correctly calculated probability for TLTJ implies odds are at least 1:59 against the Talpiot Tomb containing the Gospel Jesus. Nobody claiming TLTJ to be true has done so by Bayes equation. So there is no basis to claim science supports TLTJ as being true. Given this information is now known a person with consistent credibility would not intentionally make a false claim. They would either prove bayes analysis wrong or not intentionally make a false claim.
Name:r3 •
Date: 07/26/07 5:37
A: I added the last paragraph
11. MARIAMENOU AS MARY MAGDELENE
The 4th century document Acts of Philip mentions Mariamenou. Jacabovici claim this is a reference to Mary Magdalene. The Mariamenou referred to in the Acts of Philip is an evangelist in Greek who is the sister of Philip and is never called Mary Magdalene. Some connect Mariamene in the Acts of Philip to Mary Magdalene, because the Acts of Philip associates Mariamenou with special powers and in those day certain groups thought Mary Magdalene had special powers. The Apocalyptic Fiction, Act of Phillips, is dated at the earliest to the fourth century and all four canonical gospels are dated to the first century and use the name Mary Magdalene.
The name Mary Magdalene is just the common Mary with historians believe with a reference to Magdala the city near Galilee. There is nothing about the name Mary Magdalene or Mariamne that would give the early Christian church motivation to change the name as Jacabovici supposed with his Master Mariamenou conspiracy theory. Historian have found the approach of using the most ancient information which is corroborated by other sources as the more reliable method for determine the truth about historical events. So in this case the reliable method clearly determines the name was originally Mary Magdalene not Mariamenou. Even the expert in the Film Francois Bovon, the Harvard professor of the history of religion who is the main source in the film for interpreting the ossuary as Mariamenou, has sent a letter to the Society of Biblical Literature where he says the he disagrees with associating Mary Magdalene to this ossuary [11].
Professor Phan who was interviewed in the film is a textual scholar and paleographer at the University of the Holy Land in Jerusalem. His analysis of this ossuary [7] determined that the inscription reads Mariame (Mary) and Mara (Martha) not Mariamenou, Mariamene or Mariamne. Phan points out that Ref. 1 originally misinterpreted a ”K” as a “N”. There must be an “N” in this name to connect it to the Mariamenou in the Acts of Philip. Phan’s key point is that there really is no “N”, it is a “K” misinterpreted by being thought of as a “N” written in reverse which never has been observed on ossuaries. Interpreted correctly as a K produces KAI which is “and” and makes sense because it is connecting two names and as Ref. 7 shows, is commonly used to connect names on ossuaries. So the Phan explanation is the highly probable one of the common “and” connecting the two most common female names found on ossuaries Mary and Martha. In the lists of all the names found on ossuaries in Ref. 8 I estimate of the female names Mary is found on about 49% of the ossuaries and Martha is found on 27% of the ossuaries, by far the most common names while Mariamenou is not found on any. The connections to the Acts of Philip explanation has the never found on any other ossuary name “Maramenou” (quite low probability) produced by an unexpected never found elsewhere reversed “K” to produce a “N” (quite low probability). Scientific reasoning selects the reliable highly probable explanation over the (quite low probability)^2 = very low probability explanation. Thus, I do not see how a rationale person can believe in a connection of this ossuary to the Mariamenou of the Acts of Philip. So the 1/160 factor for the Mariamenou should obviously be removed from the probability calculation.
To associate ossuary 701 with Mariamenou you need to find an “N” and “U” on the ossuary. To associate it with Mariamne or Mariamene you need you need to find an “N” on the ossuary. If you look at the inscription in Ref. 7 you will see that to find an “N” you are required to think of a forward slash “/” is really intended to be a back slash “\”. The argument below is strong that this “/” is part of a “K” of Kai. So if good reason cannot be presented to claim this "/" is part of a "N", then one should conclude the implications in the previous paragraph rather than association ossuary 701 with Mariamne or Mariamene. If you look at the inscription in Ref. 7 you will see that to find an “U” you are required to think of a "| |" as a “U”. The argument in Ref. 7 and below is strong that the first part of this “| |” is a “i” that is part of “Kai”. So if good reason cannot be presented to claim this “| |” is "U", then one should conclude the implications in the previous paragraph rather than association ossuary 701 with Mariamenou.
In Ref. 9 Dr. James Tabor addresses Ref. 7. He points out that the inscription what Ref. 7 interprets as “Kai” is found on ossuary Rahmani #108 at the end where it could not be “Kai” which is “and”. But “Kai” in Greek or Aramaic is “and” so why does it matter that it is found on ossuary Rahmani #108 at the end? Ref. 9 provides no explanation for how a "/" can be part of a "N" and a "| |" can be called a "U" to imply Mariamenou? Ref. 9 points out that the DNA study of this ossuary found only one person, but this is just an argument from silence of a 2000 year old small sample of the remains.
The sequence of reasoning the team promoting TLTJ is to select the much lower probability interpetation of Ossuarry #701 (Mariamenou) rather than the much more probable one of Mary and Martha. Then they use the low probability Mariamenou to formulate an argument that such a low probability would not happen by random so it must be the Gospel Jesus tomb. This shows that their argument is achieved only through a contradiction. In the first step of the reasoning the low probability interpetation is chosen by avoiding the high probability interpetation so in the next step they can claim they have discovered a low probability relation with the Gospel Jesus. If the first step in the reasoning is invalid, then it does not matter what the second step in the reasoning implies. Thus, there is no validity in ussing Mariamenou to make a low probability association with the Gospel Jesus.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 07/26/07 17:11
A: R3,
So you figured demoting Mary Magdalene's status as a teacher excludes her from your equation.Remember she was found in the same tomb and DNA tests proved she wasn't related by blood.Also another interpretation of the name Magdalene was tower or pillar.(a William Henry interpretation).To me the most reliable accounts would be the ones written by eyewitnesses like Mary Magdalene during the 1st century.And there are six to ten pages of her gospel missing in addition to The BOOK OF LOVE that Jesus authored.
Name:betty47 •
Date: 07/27/07 3:29
A: R3 - If you use your marvelous formula, you will prove that the odds of Jesus ever rising from the dead are 0%. Therefore, this whole argument of your's is meaningless. Jesus lived. He died. He was buried somewhere and the odds are higher that he was buried in the Jesus Family tomb than the odds are that he rose in bodily form. You guys can argue your formulas till you are tied in knots. Prove he ever rose in the first place with statistics. You can't. You haven't. You won't because you want to believe his body is in heaven. Faith is faith and Christians are so scared someone will dig up Jesus you're going in circles trying to prove that Christianity is true. It's not. It's faith. Get a grip.
Name:r3 •
Date: 07/27/07 13:41
A: The probability for super natural intervention cannot be directly calulcated for or against. Betty’s claim about ressurection odds have no objective basis. It is the natural results of an super natural intervention that can be evaluated by probability for or against super natural intervention. This is explained in the following url
http://members.aol.com/-SHinrichs9/spntid.pdf
Based- on this objective reasoning I do present supernatural evidence for the Jesus in the folllwoing url
http://members.aol.com/SH-inrichs9/critic7.pdf
Argument-s- for the ressurection of Jesus are summarized in the following url.
To substantiate the claim just faith, Betty must dismiss these arguments
Name:Panluna •
Date: 07/27/07 15:07
A: R3,
Let's examine the word ressurection.
Words can change in meaning.According to the Ossuary funeral culture there were two burials.The first one was when the body was anointed then wrapped set in a crypt and allowed to decompose for a year..The second was when the decomposed body was placed in the limestone ossuary.Ressurection could have meant the 2nd burial.
Mary Magdalene who could have possessed psychic ability may have seen Jesus' spiritual body several times after his death.There is no way any one could have physically survived the scourging and crucifixtion.I've seen ghost and spirit's all my life and they do appear in a recognizable form and they communicate by signs or telepathically.And a person doesn't have to be psychic to sense them.Everyone has an innate 6th sense-developed or not--within them.
Blind Faith which is taught can be changed to a clearer view if one seeks the path to knowledge and truth and examines all possibilities.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 07/27/07 15:13
A: Betty47,
Way to go!!!Thanks. I wasn't sure what they were trying to prove. I felt like I was going in circles.As far as I'm concerned the physical proof was found in the Talpiot tomb.The spiritual proof is founded in Faith.
Name:betty47 •
Date: 07/27/07 16:32
A: Thanks, Panluna. Glad to see there's a few objective people on this site like yourself.
R3 - This site is so amusing. Please don't take offense. I'm Christian too. But I find it so amusing that the born agains love to argue about all the statistics that Christ is not in the tomb in Jerusalem, but then you say we can't give statistical arguments regarding the supernatural. Do you know how silly we must sound to people of other religions? Listen to all the stuff we Christians try to get others to believe, and then you'll realize Christianity really can't be believed unless you're a believer by choice. Jesus was Jewish, but Christians can't follow Judaism. Jesus rejected pagan holidays, but he was born on the holiday of 12/25, a pagan holy day. Christ was born of a virgin mother who was a virgin all her life, but she had several children. Christ rose to heaven, but his body is clearly in a tomb with the rest of his family. Evolution never happened despite all the evidence that it did, but we have to believe and teach Creation. Yada, yada, yada. It's faith. The rest of the world is laughing.
Name:r3 •
Date: 07/28/07 4:28
A: Probability values for many things in science cannot be calculated directly, but inferred by proof by elimination they key logical principal used in Science. Just because the conclusion is obtained by inference rather than directly does not mean the reasoning is less valid. I am a scientist who tries to make all my beliefs religious or not consistent with what is determined true by science and not believe anything proven false by science when science determines a strong and solid case for something. For example, I discovered science has determined a strong and solid case that species share common ancestors so I changed my position to Theistic Evolution. See http://members.aol.com/SHi-nrichs9/descent.pdf.
PS- remove the dashes
This website is designed Simchi to promote TLTJ by presenting probability calculations that I have proven invalid. I have proven that bayes equation is valid and have used it to evaluate TLTJ. So to complain about my discussion is equivalent to saying that only unscientific evaluation of TLTJ should be discussed and not scientific evaluations. Since this website it setup to discuss TLTJ, it is appropriate for me to present objective and correct analysis of TLTJ and that is all I plan on discussion in this group. As far as I am aware I have developed the best scientific analysis of TLTJ and those promoting TLTJ have not yet even presenting anything using bayes equation. So scientist would appreciate my contribution, but apparently nobody has yet in this discussion group.
The following post I lists are to explain what I think is the scientific approach in case people are interested.
Name:r3 •
Date: 07/28/07 4:29
A: I see no rational reason to believe Betty’s artificially constructed characterization.
Name:r3 •
Date: 07/28/07 4:29
A: A key logical concept in Science attempts to use to determine the truth about reality is called Proof by Elimination (PE). If there is a theory that describes a certain reality and all possible hypothesis for explaining that certain reality are false except for one hypothesis, then PE implies that this one non-false hypothesis is true. For example, if there were 10 different possible hypothesis for explaining a certain event and it was shown that 9 out of the 10 were implausible, implying they were false, then there would be a logical case that the one remaining plausible hypothesis was true.
The two assumptions PE is based upon is that there is a correct theory for explaining the reality being investigated and that reality follows the law of no contradiction. Without these two assumptions reason could not determine the truth about any reality, supernatural or natural. If there is a correct theory that describes a certain reality and all possible hypothesis for explaining that certain reality are false except for one hypothesis, then PE implies that this one non-false hypothesis is true. If the remaining hypothesis was also false then there would be no correct theory which would contradict the premise that there is a correct theory. Thus, if the premise that there is a correct theory is true, then the one non-false hypothesis must be true otherwise the premise would be contradicted. Thus, PE is derived from the requirement for no contradiction which is a fundamental logical principal. Since PE is derived from a logical concept PE is also a logical concept. Science attempts to use PE and other logical concepts to determine the truth about reality; thus, the scientific procedure has the potential to logically determine something true about reality.
Making a scientific case for some claim involves showing all possible hypothesis are false except for one. Thus, the scientific procedure involves determining what are all the possible hypothesis and collecting relevant data from observations to check if the data implies any of the possible hypothesis false. Observation of reality plays a key role in the scientific process because observation is the one source of information humans themselves have about reality. Thus, a scientist job involves collecting as much relevant observations through experiments or research to see if any of the information implies any of the possible hypothesis false. If it can be definitely shown that all possible hypothesis are false except for one, then a case has been made that the one hypothesis that is not false is true. Hypothesis are shown false by either deterministic criterion or indeterministic criterion.
Name:r3 •
Date: 07/28/07 4:34
A: Scientist through using mathematics, logic, probability and statistics have develop a whole bunch of criterion for showing hypothesis implausible. All certainly cannot be presented in this article; however, a few general and more specific ones are listed in this section because they are basic and commonly useful. These criterion are based upon both deterministic and indeterministic principles. The eighth criterion uses PE in conjunction with the first seven criterion to make the case a certain hypothesis is the correct one.
1. The hypothesis must explain something about the relevant reality (that is, taken together with other true statements, imply further statements describing present, observable data).
2. The hypothesis must not be illogical (that is, none of the assertions it makes contradicts any logical or deterministic principle)
3. The hypothesis must be self-consistent (that is, none of the assertions it makes contradicts any other assertion it makes)
4. The hypothesis should be more plausible (that is, make the observable data more probable) than all the rival hypothesis
5. The hypothesis should explain more about the relevant reality (that is, imply a greater variety of observable data) than all the rival hypothesis.
6. The hypothesis should be more consistent with reality (that is, be implied by a greater variety of accepted truths about reality, and it’s negation implied by fewer accepted truths about reality) than all the rival hypothesis
7. The hypothesis should be less ad-hoc (that is, include fewer new suppositions about reality not already implied by existing knowledge) than all the rival hypothesis
8. The hypothesis must fulfill 1-3 and so exceed its rival hypotheses in fulfilling conditions 4-7 that there is little chance (as calculated by bayes equation for all rival hypothesis), after any further investigation that any rival hypothesis would exceeding it in meeting these conditions.
Name:r3 •
Date: 07/28/07 4:37
A: Excerpt from http://members.aol.com/SH-inrichs9/spntid.pdf
Th-e- scientific process typically investigates the natural world by comparing observations from the observable world to predictions made by theories of the real world. Suppose the supernatural did cause an event that produced effects that were observed. Is it possible to rationally identify such effects as caused by the supernatural? This article proposes a rational approach by which to identify events that were caused by the supernatural. It also investigates some claims to the supernatural.
Clearly, almost all observed events appear to be caused by natural processes which follow governing principles that remain the same over time. These events have been studied extensively and scientists have developed well-tested theories that explain much of what we observe. Since natural causes are the most common, justification for claiming an event was caused by the supernatural requires showing that the event cannot be successfully explained by natural causes. Thus, one must first investigate if it is possible for natural processes to explain the event in question. If one can show that all-possible natural explanations are not plausible, then one has made the case that the supernatural has intervened.
As explained in Ref. 1, scientist typically go through a process of eliminating false hypothesis. According to proof by elimination "PE", if there is an all-natural theory that explains a certain real event and all other possible natural hypothesis for explaining that certain event are false except for one specific natural hypothesis, then this one remaining non-false natural hypothesis is the correct theory. The approach for identifying supernatural intervention proposed in my article makes use of this logical principle, by just extending it to the case where there is no plausible natural hypothesis. If there is a correct hypothesis and all possible natural hypothesis for explaining a certain real event are false, then there is a logical argument that the cause involves non-natural phenomenon; thus, the supernatural was involved with causing the event to occur.
For example, if someone dropped a dense rocked and it fell according to the rules of gravity, then there would be no rational justification for being convinced the event involved supernatural intervention. However, if on the second time given every relevant natural condition essentially the same, the rock went up and down just on it’s own in midair, then one would have good reason to think that the supernatural had intervened.
The approach in this article is similar to Ref. 8 in that it uses PE. Ref. 8 focuses on the method for identifying design while this article focuses on the method for identifying supernatural intervention. Ref. 8 presents in a formal way the logic for the method while this article does not.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 07/28/07 15:39
A: R3,
Is religion rational?I appreciate your efforts and points.If you are including and calculating the other tombs mentioned I believe that some of them were used to illustrate the gospels.The only legitimate tomb would be the one that fits the 1st century funerary culture.Even the one Constatine's mother the Empress Helena designated as his tomb,then visited by pilgrams for centuries following the legitamacy of the Christian religion in the 3?? A.D. was established several centuries after Jesus's death.There was a real myth that evolved for centuries.When in truth it was a rebellion against the Roman rulers.As was a custom of the Romans Jesus become Diefied in the 4th century.Because they couldn't find physical proof of his death and ressurection they made him a God and later on he became holy.And since his birth was so "unusual "Mary became virginal all her church life.What rational did the medievel minds use to create the miraculous?All this based on an interpretation of the Messianic prophecies found in the Old Testament then incorporated and brought to life in the New Testament.And many bible stories were excluded from the more commonly used version of the Good Book.Even Mary Magdalene's eyewitness account of her life with the "Holy" Jesus as his wife and Apostle who witnessed the "ressurection" was edited by the church council because it didn't fit church doctrines.Then she was vilified.During the dark ages after the Fall of the Roman Empire the majority of people could not read or write so it was up to the powerful leaders(Popes and Kings) to tell their version of the tale and convert people to the new religion. And they used illustrations, carvings and paintings to tell the version of the story they believed.Generally any gossip or rumours that circulates by word of mouth usually does not end up the same way as it started.Since the Hebrews knew the truth all along and various groups like the Gnostics who followed a different revelation based on knowledge were then persucuted by the ones who believed the fantastic and irrational version of the legend.They had the mentality of children and wanted to believe in the miraculous.Education makes a big difference.If the Empress Helena or anyone during the search for the real tomb had found it in the early years of Christianity the religion would be much different then it is now.Based on this historic find(the Talpiot tomb) the current followers may have to make some changes and accept the facts.The Talpiot tomb is a 1st century tomb fitting the ossuary culture.of Jesus' people.All other Christians tombs came afterwards and were used to illustrate the ressurection story.No equation can disprove the validity of the truth factor.
If A is A then it's A .....A meaning the Absolute.You can't change the Truth no matter what.it always surfaces.
Faith without scrutiny makes people believe and follow anything.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 07/28/07 15:52
A: Betty47,
Is it a joke?Education opens minds and doors.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 07/28/07 21:24
A: R3,
There are many varying view points in regards to the Transfiguration,Ascension and many aspects of the Christian view evolving over the centuries that will explain why they aren't exactly unfied.WIKIPEDIA.com has endless material and references.It could take more than a lifetime to understand all of it--especially what the inner-spiritual light means.Explaining the Diety's relationship to mankind is the basis of all religions.It's what you believe that counts.May you find your Truth.
Name:betty47 •
Date: 07/30/07 4:57
A: "Comment: Is this a joke? "
I'm sorry, Panluna. I don't understand your question. Other than I find R3 comments ridiculous. He goes in circles with formulas and statistics on how this can't be the Jesus Family Tomb when all the evidence points in that direction and then says we can't use statistics for the things he wants to believe. His thoughts seems laughable.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 07/30/07 12:41
A: Betty47,
I just wasn't sure what the joke was about.
Name:Anchorite •
Date: 08/02/07 20:47
A: Hi Panluna, Betty47,
You know, sometimes what a person says is simply not intelligible. Perhaps you might avail yourselves of this clause.
Sincerely,
Anchorite
Name:Panluna •
Date: 08/02/07 23:05
A: Anchorite,
DUH?!!!!!!
Name:sam •
Date: 08/05/07 0:16
A: Panluna,
“As was a custom of the Romans Jesus become Deified in the 4th century Because they couldn't find physical proof of his death and resurrection they made him a God and later on he became holy.”
-----The Crucifying and the resurrection, are they true?
In J-20:14 When she had said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, AND DID NOT KNOW IT WAS JESUS!. (that is disfiguration)
20:16 Jesus said to her, “Mary!” she turned and said to Him in Hebrew, “RABBONI !” (Which means, TEACHER.) . (for Mary and the other disciples He is a teacher and not son of God or God)
20:17 Jesus said to her “stop clinging to Me, FOR I HAVE NOT YET ASCENDED TO THE FATHER. (When He appear to Mary, He was alive in body and soul, and that means He did not die.)
20:19 The doors were shut where the disciples were, for the fear of the jews, JESUS CAME AND STOOD IN THEIR MIDST... (A miracle to appear and disappear, and that what happen when they try to arrest him).
20:20 HE SHOWED THEM BOTH HIS HANDS AND HIS SIDE. The disciples then rejoiced when they saw the Lord. (Jesus show them that He was no put on the cross, or hurt, and his disciples were rejoiced to see Him alive and well)
“Even Mary Magdalene's eyewitness account of her life with the "Holy" Jesus as his wife and Apostle who witnessed the "resurrection" was edited by the church council because it didn't fit church doctrines .Then she was vilified.”
----- The truth is, not only what Mary Magdalene wrote as a witness was edited, but all the gospels been written in the way to serve the church doctrines. And that went for many years even today. Here the proof:
Catholic online (the Bible) wrote this verse in the gospel of
John- 9:35 “..THE SON OF GOD”
American standard Bible [translated from the original language-Aramaic/Hebrew]
John- 9:35 “.. THE SON OF MAN”
...................
THE SON OF MAN , came 88 times in the four gospels;
Matthew- 31 Mark- 16 Luke- 29 John- 12 :Mostly are the words of Jesus
THE SON OF GOD, came 27 times in the four gospels:
Matthew- 9 Mark- 3 Luke- 6 John- 9
By the temperer [the devil] - 4 By the demons - 1 By the Jews- 1 By the high priest- 1 by the centurion- 2 By Simon Peter- 2 By unclean spirit- 1 By John- 1 by angel- 1 By Jesus- 3 By others- 10
So, when we see alteration [MAN to GOD] happen in the 20th century, we can say that during the past 2000 years many have been changed, and the churches been known to forge documents and switch words as Panluna said, “to serve the church doctrines”.
Betty47,
"I'm Christian too....Do you know how silly* we must sound to people of other religions? Listen to all the stuff we Christians try to get others to believe....Jesus was Jewish, but Christians can't follow Judaism."
--- You spoke the right things and you brought the truth to what is happening, thank you. But it is your responsibility to find the truth and bring it out because you are not saved if you are following the wrong teaching of the churches.
Dear betty 47,
The commandments came to the prophet Moses direct from GOD, and not from Jesus, and Jesus followed those commandments and preach them. The first commandment is:
YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER gods BEFORE ME.
And Jesus said : “HEAR O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD.”
It is very clear here that the One and only GOD, the God of Moses and the Jews and the God of Jesus.
I cannot understand how the Christians believe that Jesus is God or part of God!!!. Do they understand His words and His teaching? Did they read about Him when He spend all night in the mountain in prayer to GOD?.
* When you said ,”how silly* we must sound to people of other religions? “
Of Course , what is going on in the churches, the pope and the bishop etc., are dressing and living like kings, the people go the dark room to confess!!!, the holy water etc., the acts that the priest do, and the musical orchestra, the song, the jumping and dancing and shouting [in some churches] which look more like a theater, and the nude painting, which good for public bath (as one bishop in the Vatican describe it), and the statues, some covered with gold, and kissing them and kneel in front of them, all that seems for the people of the other religion a SILLY thing if they know the truth about the life of Jesus and the people around Him. All WHAT THEY SEE AS SILLY, that is only about the Christians way in praying, and their churches.
As for the Muslims Jesus and His mother the Virgin Mary, are very well respected like all the other prophets, every time when their name mentioned, the Muslims follow it by saying “A’ALEH AL-SALAM”, and that is “PEACE UPON HIM/HER”.
In the Quran there is a chapter called “SURAT MARIAM” , AND IT IS THE CHAPTER 19 , AND CONTAINS 98 VERSES, WITH 961 WORDS. And there are 33 verses about Jesus.
Before Muslim read the Quran, they have to make sure that they are clean {the words are God’s word}. There are hundred of million who read from the Quran 5 times a day in their prayers, plus some people read the Quran even before or after the prayers, So, can you guess how many times people read the chapter of Mariam and the name of Jesus and how many times they say “PEACE UPON THEM”. When Muslims pray, they pray in silence, and in the mosque only the Imam read from the Quran and everyone else stand or sit in a respected way and listen, no one allowed to speak or make noise while the praying is going {they are in the house of God}.
“ and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers,” Mark 11:15 Can you see the business that goes on in some churches today!!!.
betty47, you might not feel to read the Quran because you been told , but what about if you just read the chapter of MARIAM [on Islam site], and see the truth. Here some:
!9:21 He [the angel] said, “Thus it will be; your Lord says, “it is easy for Me, and We will make Him [Jesus] a sign to the people and a mercy from Us. And it is a matter already decreed.”
!9:29 So She [Mariam] pointed to Him [Jesus]. The said, “how can we spesk to one who is in the cradle a child [the baby Jesus]?
19:30 Jesus said, “ indeed I Am the servant of Allah [God] . HE has given me the scripture and made Me a prophet.
19:31 And HE has made Me blessed wherever I am and has enjoined upon Me prayer and Zakat [giving to the poor] as long as I remain alive.
19:33 And peace is on Me the day I was born and the day I will die and THE DAY I AM RAISED ALIVE.”
God bless you all.
Name:Anchorite •
Date: 08/22/07 21:00
A: Obfuscation
Name:Panluna •
Date: 08/23/07 15:44
A: Anchorite,
Mystified?and we are still digging for the truth and arguing over this bone of contention just as they have for centuries.Did he or didn't he?Is he or isn't he?is he the risen god or just a glorified human?
Name:sam •
Date: 08/23/07 18:30
A: Hi Panluna,
"is he the risen god or just a glorified human?"
God never come to earth and walk with people, and God never die, to be risen again. The stories which been created by some people after Jesus death about Him were taken from the Greeks and the Roman and the othere old religions, where there were many gods and sons and daughters.
Jesus Is the son of Man, and He knows Himself as been sent by God , to bring God's word again to the people who been lost [the israeliles], and He is the promissed prophet., anything else about Him as the God's son or He is a God, is created lies.
It is clear here by Jesus words that He is just a messenger:
L- 22:42 ..... YET NOT MY WILL, BUT YOURS BE DONE. [The will of God]
M - 5:8 “Blessed are the pure in heart, FOR THEY SHALL SEE GOD.” [The people saw Jesus, but never saw God, and only the good will see God]
M - 7:21 “Not everyone who says to ME, ‘LORD’,’LORD’, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does THE WILL OF ‘ MY FATHER’ WHO IS IN HEAVEN.” [The kingdom of God in not the kingdom of Jesus]
M - 5:45 “So that you may be SONS OF YOUR FATHER WHO IS IN HEAVEN; for HE cause HIS sun to rise... and send rain..” The might be called the sons of God , but not the sons of Jesus, Jesus is not the God]
J- 8:42 ....I have not even come on My own initiative, BUT HE SENT ME. [God created Jesus, and sent Him]
J- 11:41 ...”Father, I THANK YOU that YOU HAVE HEARD ME. [when Jesus thanks God, he proves that He is not God or His son]
J-11:42 ....I said it, so they may believe THAT YOU SENT ME. [you should believe in God as the only God, that is Jesus message]
J- 17:3 “That they may know YOU, THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST WHOM YOU HAVE SENT.” [you should understand that God is the one and only God]
J- 17:14 “ I have given them YOUR WORD...” [did you hear and understand what Jesus said?]
MA- 10:18 “Why do you call ME good? NO ONE IS GOOD EXCEPT GOD ALONE. [how can someone said Jesus is God while Jesus said NO ONE IS GOOD EXCEPT GOD ALONE!!!?]
----JESUS CHRIST "WHOM YOU HAVE SENT.” Jesus is a messenger [prophet], sent by God.
----GOD ALONE, no other God [Jesus is not God]., but God ALONE.
---- “So that you may be SONS OF YOUR FATHER WHO IS IN HEAVEN". Those who believe in God [not in jesus as God] and those who are righteous they might be called THE SONS OF GOD TOO, same as Jesus.
"we are still digging for the truth and arguing over this bone.."
The truth is in front of you, Jesus words are the whole truth, but the blinds in heart will never see the truth, no matter how long or how much they dig. The blinds who follow the blinds will end in the PIT.
Q-7:162 "But those who wronged among them CHANGED THE WORDS TO A STATEMENT OTHER THAN THAT WHICH HAD BEEN SAID TO THEM. So WE sent upon them a punishment fom the sky for the wrong that they were doing."
And Jesus said:
M 12:36 But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, that shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment.
M 37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.
Also He said:
M-12:31/32 ...Any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the spirit [God] shall not be forgiven. WHOEVER SPEAKS A WORD AGAINST THE SON OF MAN [JESUS] , IT SHALL BE FORGIVEN HIM; BUT WHOEVER SPEAKS AGAINST THE HOLY SPIRIT [GOD] , IT SHALL NOT BE FORGIVEN HIM, EITHER IN THIS AGE OR THE AGE TO COME.
For the Jews, Jesus is a false prophet, and they did say a lot of wrong things against Him and they might be forgiven, But the Christians they said a lot of things against God, by creating another God make a son for Him, can that be forgiven according to what Jesus said?. AS for the Muslims Jesus is a real prophet sent by God for all the words.
The Jews were wrong, the prophecy came to them but they deny it when it happen, and the Christians are wrong, because the prophecy was that a prophet called the Messiah will come but He comes, they call Him God and the son of God.
God bless you.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 08/23/07 23:39
A: Sam,
I believe he was a messinger and prophet at least that's how he started out as.But can you explain the Transfiguration?---when the dove appeared over him and then God's spirit entered his body?Would you say it was entity possession?A whole crowd of people witnessed these events at one of the sermons.Wikipedia has an article about this.
Name:sam •
Date: 08/24/07 21:19
A: Dear Panluna,
You quoted:
A- "I believe he was a messinger and prophet at least that's how he started out as."
---- What you believe is right. Jesus was born a prophet and died a prophet. If you read the stories about all the prophets it was the same. for example take the story of Moses, even He was shosen by God before He was born to be a prophet , but he started later in age to know the truth about Himself, and that was by messages from God. And Ishmael was named before he was born, and so is Jesus, but He did not start His work as a prophet until the age of 30, and Muhammad started at age 40, Why?. the answer to that is, that they are God messnegers, HE created them, and He asked them to deliver HIS message when they are full grown up, and He supported each one with some power to support them and HIS message.
Note: Saying and claiming that the Bible and the gospels are the words of God is wrong. Abraham, Moses and Jesus they spoke the words of God but those who wrote the book after time, they created their own stories and added them to the books. These books are full of contradictions and errors, and anyone who understand science and logic can tell this fact. The people who run the business, in synagogues or churches they will neve admit it, because they will loose their power and kingdoms on earth, and I don't think they care much about God or the truth . {you should remember the story when Jesus went into the synagogue and turn the tables?}.
M-15:24 But He answered and said, "I WAS SENT 'ONLY' TO THE LOST SHEEP OF 'THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL."
The HOUSE of Israel,is not a country , but a family, the Jews family.
He Came to bring back the Jews to the right way, but only few Jews who followed Him, and most of His follower were not Jews. and we can say that Jesus mission was not successful, because it did not change the way the Jews do the business, and they still today do not believe in his words [the words of God]. Besides, His follower later on, changed His message to make Him son of God and even God, and that is why another messenger is needed to correct all the things , and to bring people to woship God only exactly as it came in the laws of God [the commandments], which was sent by Moses " YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER gods BEFORE ME". And God said that HIS message [Islam- the total submission to God] will be the last message and the last messenger, because God knows that the world will come to the time when people will be so advanced in their knowledge. so He sent with His message many examples about the real world that they live in [scientific knowledge] and He told them this:
"AND YOU WILL SURELY KNOW THE TRUTH OF ITS INFORMATION AFTER TIME" Q-38:88
God Gave Moses and Jesus the power to do miracles, but the miracles did not work well, so He brought in His last message different sort of miracle, and it is information about the world that people do not know and told that they will know the fact of it in the future time, and on time [when they aquire the knowledge], and that will come on time, after time from the message. I Did bring many of these scientific examples in the previous posts, I hope you remember them.
..................................
B- But can you explain the Transfiguration?.
---- That is very easy. First we should go to the books, and try to separate the words of God that came By Moses and Jesus from the words of the other people. Second we should look for the real miracles that been done by Moses and Jesus, and if they did claim those miracles for themselves, and see if the miracles are the works of God and not their works.
Moses did not claim the miracles for Himself.
And Jesus did many great miracles, and He did not claim them to Himself, [I CAN DO NOTHING ON MY OWN INITIATIVE.], [THE WORD WHICH YOU HEAR IS NOT MINE.],
[THAT THEY MAY KNOW YOU, THE ONLY TRUE GOD.] That gives us the answer to the question, "WHO IS THE ONE WHO REALLY DOES THOSE MIRACLE?" .THE TRUE GOD IS THE RIGHT ANSWER.
Now, we can look at the "Transfiguration" question, and we ask ourselves: - is that a sort of a miracle?, is that miracle is greater than bringing a dead man to life or create a living bird from a clay?, did the one who did these miracles done many greater miracles before?, Is the one who really did miracles is able to do greater miracles?, did we ever try to widen our horizon and look for the truth beyond the words that been written by people and put in a book that we call holy, and look at the real world and words and work of the holy spirit , "GOD" ?.
Can we ask ourselves these very simple questions,
- What is greater , giving life to a dead man or creating man and all the living things from the dead earth and from nothing?.
- What is greater, crearing life on the tiny earth or creating the earth and the universe?
The only one who know the answer for these questions are the one with knowledge.
Q- 40:57 THE CREATION OF THE SKIES [UNIVERSES] AND EARTH IS GREATER THAN THE CREATION OF MANKIND, BUT MOST OF THE PEOPLES DO NOT KNOW.
Panluna, here I am going to put some of the miracles, and I want you to tell me wich is the greatest of them.
Transfiguration...giving life to a dead body....creating live bird from a clay.... creating life from the dead earth.... creationg million species, plants and animals etc.....creating the universe.
Is the one who created the universe and everything in it, is not able to give the power to His messenger to transfigute themselves, and to make another to look like them so HE can save them.
Do you think that God will let sinner people to harm the one HE loved?.
I do believe that God care about His good people.
.................-......................
C-- when the dove appeared over him and then God's spirit entered his body?Would you say it was entity possession?A whole crowd of people witnessed these events at one of the sermons.Wikipedia has an article about this. "
(I would like to ask you to bring the verses from the gospels that mentioned that , please.)
---- God spirit entered His body!!!. My question is, "did any human see God, or HIS spirit, or know how THEY looks like?, did Jesus said that?, at what time and what age the spirit entered His body?, did the people who created this lie, discribe the way and the place that the spirit uses to enter His body, was His nose or mouth or ears or another place?, did He knows about it or not?.
Do you think that this story is like many other false stories in the gospels, like the story of the devil who took Jesus to the high montain to show Him the glory of the kingdoms on earth!!!, or the story of the statrs fallen on earth, and after He will come back on the cloud!!!, Do you think if the stars 30 billion trillions + of them fall over our head on earth there will be cloud or earth?. Did anyone witnessed all those stories the one which claim it Happen and the one which never happen?!!!. I think people should wake up and learn something about what we call LOGIC. We live in the 21st century if you know .
People believe in those myths but they do not accept the words of God that came in the Quran and brought a lot of real scientific information. they belive in the devil story but they do not believe in this:
Q- 21:32 AND WE MADE THE SKY A PROTECTED CEILING, BUT THEY, FROM ITS SIGHNS ARE TURNING AWAY.
Can you tell me when the people started to know this fact?. Are we now talking about that we are damaging this protective ceiling, and what will happen to us. Are there many people and countries who knows this facts, but they ignore it.
---- A whole crowd of people witnessed these events!!!.
And a lot of people witnessed His body ascend to heaven, and that is the belive of billions of people until the discovery of His tomb. The gospels hold within many stories created by people and which cannot be accepted logically, except by those who are blinded and will not listen and accept the truth which comes only from facts, realities and science.
---- Wikipedia has an article about this.
That is great!!!, So, Wikipedia knows the truth!!!. I wonder the people who wrote this article in that site are Chritians and represent the view of the church, or a scientific group which deal with matters in a logical ways?, do you believe and trust the churches and the Wikipedia more than the words of Jesus, and the word of God?.
.................................
I hope you understand more than only Jesus is a prophet, the fact that God sent all the prophets too, and Jesus is one of them and so is Muhammad, {THAT THEY MAY KNOW YOU , THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST WHOM YOU HAVE SENT}.
Every messenger is responsible for carrying in delivering the message that been given to Him by God, but He is not responsible for how the people receive it, and what they do with it. Every person is responsible for himself only and will be judged fairly. The Quran mentioned that, when HE gave Muhammad this message:
Q- 34:28 And WE have not sent you except comprehensively to mankind as a bringer of good tidings and a warner. But most of the people do not know.
Q- 42:48 But if they turn away - then WE have not sent you [O Muhammad], over them as a guardian; upon you is only [the duty of] notification.
As we read these words we Understand that the messages were given to us by God's messengers, and they did what God asked them to do, but after that it is our responsibilities either to follow God's words or the people words, and any person with a clear mind can come to the truth.
Q- 5:110 When Allah [God] will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, remember MY favor upon You and upon your Mother when I supported you with the Pure Spirit [the angel Gabriel] and you spoke to the people in the cradle and in maturity; and remember when I taught you writing and wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel; and when you designed from clay what was like the form of a bird with MY permission, then you breathed into it, and it became a bitd with MY permission; and when you healed the blind and the leper with my permission; and when you brought forth the dead with MY permission; and when I restrained the children of Israel from killing you * when you came to them with clear proofs and those who disbelieved among them said, "This is not but obvious magic."
Is that a proof to what Jesus said, "I CAN DO NOTHING ON MY OWN INITIATIVE".
* That tells us that Jesus was not killed by Jews, or by the Romans. The transfiguration miracle saved Him.
God bless you.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 08/25/07 0:54
A: Hi Sam,
The Transfiguration is from the Synoptic gospels and are:
Matthew 17:1-6
Mark 9:1-8
Luke 9:28-36.WIKIPEDIA can give you the full texts if you don't have a bible.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 08/25/07 0:59
A: Anything in life is as great a miracle as creating the universe.To me humankind achieveing world peace and mutual respect would be the greatest way for us to show our love to the creator--whether it be by science and/or religion that grants this prayer.
Name:sam •
Date: 08/25/07 20:12
A: Hi Panluna,
I did ask you to bring the verses which the transfiguration came in, not because i did not know were they are, but because I want you to read them again and use the science and logic to analyze what you read, and because I know for a fact that you believe in evreything in the bible and the gospels as they are the word of God, but are they the word of God or the words of Matthew and Mark and the others?.
The followings are few line from the gospels:
--Mat- 17 my son for he is a lunatic and is very ill; for he often FALLS INTO THE FIRE and often INTO THE WATER......and Jesus rebuked him AND THE DEMON CAME OUT OF HIM...
--Mar-9 my son, possessed with a spirit which make him MUTE; and whenever it seizes him, IT SLAMS HIM TO THE GROUND and he FOAMS AT THE MOUTH, and GRINDS HIS TEETH and STIFFENS OUT.....
And the story goes on to this,
9:25 When Jeus saw that a crowd was rapidly gathering, HE REBUKED THE UNCLEAN SPIRIT, SAYING TO IT, "YOU DEAF AND MUTE SPIRIT, I COMMAND YOU , COME OUT OF HIM AND DO NOT ENTER HIM AGAIN.
Even the story might look the same for the blind believer, but it is not, and here I am not saying that Jesus did not cure the boy, I do believer in all His miracles including this one, but the story went too far in bringing and adding things to it, Like "DEMON CAME OUT OF HIM" & "REBUKED THE UNCLEAN SPIRIT".
ALSO in this story , "Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils."
How did they know, and how did they count them?, did any one saw the devil? except the devil himself.
ALSO in this story, "Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil." and the rest of it.
How do they know all the story and the conversation between Jesus and the devil word by word? since no one reporter joined them in their journey to the wilderness, and to the pinacle of the temple or the high mountain ?. It was not said by Jesus, so the only other source is the devil himself.
"DEMON- DEVIL; EVIL . They are there, and so the angels, but both they are unseen to the human , and only some angels came in contacts with certain people (prophets etc.) to deliver God messages. But the people in the dark ages created a lot of unreal stories about them, as what we see in the bible and in the gospels.
My question now to you as an educated person, did you hear the word "EPILEPSY", or witnessed one?. I did witness a child who had the attack in the middle of the market, and a man [my wife cousin] during an epilepsy attack.
---The Oxford dictionary: EPILEPSY- Is a nervous disorder with recurrent attacks of unconsciousness and convulsions...
---The new LEXICON MEDICAL ENCYCLOPEDIA: EPILEPSY (Convulsive Seizures)- A disorde charasterized by convulsions, seizures, or spells, in which there is temporary loss of consciousness or memory. Since there are many causes for these seizures, the epilepsy may only be a syptom.
WHAT ARE THE CAUSES OF EPILEPSY:
- A desease effecting the brain [TUMOR] , scar, blood vesel desease, injury, birth injury, or infection and others.
From what we read above [today's knowledge], we understand that there is no demon or devil or devil spirit in the person who suffer from this desease, and sure he was cured by Jesus, like many others, but the demons and the devils was not a part of the equation, but was a created story whichcame from the devilish creativity of their imagination.
While readin again M-17 , I came to this story too:
Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves......He was transfigured...MOSES and ELIJAH appeared to them, talking with Him [talking to Jesus]
question, Jesus did talk with them, but didnot mention their names or introduced them, so how peter and James and John knows that they are Moses and Elijah?, they never met them before and there is no picture for them displayed in the synagogues!!!.
And the story goes on...Jesus commanded them saying, "TELL THE VISION TO NO ONE UNTIL THE SON OF MAN HAS RISEN FROM THE DEAD."
The truth never die, it always comes back, even if it was burried under the sand or in cave. Jesus died and burried and never rise from the death [His soul left His body like every other human soul, and no one knows where it ended], His tomb came to prove this fact, and to prove that what been created from stories about Him are false.
The story here is no more than a claimed vision. why Jesus asked them not to tell?, what is the secret in it , since it is just a vision?. Paul Himself claimed a vision that he said [ whether in the body I do not know, or out of body i do not know], and he was caught up in the third heaven!!! [does he knows the differences between the one and the sevens?, did the heavens had numbers over them?]
"was caught up into paradise {he was caught up in heaven and in paradise}, AND HEARD INEXPRESSIBLE WORDS [words which has no meanings- BUZZ], WHICH A MAN IS NOT PERMITTED TO SPEAK [How can a man speaks INEXPRESSIBLE [UNSPEAKABLE] WORDS even with permission?, can he then be labeled as silly ,stupid and out of his mind?
"BOASTING IS NECESSARY", [ LIES IS NECESSARY], Paul's laws.
G-1:2 I am not lying...R-9:1 I am not lying...2C- Let no one think me foolish....G-2:20 I have been crucified with christ...and gave Himself up for me. [that is the biggest lie]....2C-11:8 I ROOBED OTHER CHURCHES [That is 100% true]
Visions...visions... beyound any logic.
God bless you.
Name:sam •
Date: 08/25/07 22:42
A: Dear Panluna,
You mentioned the followings:
A- Anything in life is as great a miracle. as creating the universe.
---That is somewhat true, when we look at every single life by itself, for sure everyone of them is a miracle, but creating a fly not as great as creating a human [making a vehicle that moves on earth can be called a great creation, but the vehicle that moves in outer space is a much greater creation], So, if you had any idea about the universe then you will know the difference. ask NASA or visit their site to see the difference between the human and the earth and the universe.
B- To me humankind achieveing world peace and mutual respect would be the greatest way for us to show our love to the creator.
I agree with you 100%. But this not the subject we are talking about, and in reality you never answer my post, which I brought many important question,and anallysis in regards to the religions the beliefs and the teachings of the churches.
You talked about "achieveing world peace", what a great idea.
In the last thousand years, who was behind all the wars on this earth, who send their armies to occupy lands and kill it is people, who still making more arms in the world, who teach and preach wars in house of God, who makes the churches a place for all the evil things, and in politics etc.? [ it is the churches and its followers],
Watch "the Christian - God warriors" and see for yourself. I don't think God or Moses or Jesus will agree to what they are preaching, they preached love and the churches preaching HATE & HATE, and collecting $$$$$, billions of it to used to kill their neighbours.
God bless you.
--whether it be by science and/or religion that grants this prayer.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 08/26/07 16:35
A: Hi SAM,
I watched all three of the programs yesterday:GOD's Muslim,GOD's Jewish and GOD's Christian Warriors and I'm glad that I'm not a member of any of these groups at this time.I also viewed the clips on the CNN TV web-page.Very interesting programs and it definitely clarified the points of contention in the Middle East.To think that one small piece of land can be the cause of so much trouble in this world and we have to be sucked in as victims of it's ripple effect.I'm thinking of the attacks on England,Spain,September 11, 2001 and the threats to destroy America in the end of this year and next.What do think will happen to Iraq when we withdraw our troops soon?Will Iran overrun Iraq and reunite the old Persian Empire?Does it look like history is reversing itself and trying to correct past mistakes?I don't think America lost this war...someone else is losing out....Lady Liberty will not be there to teach democracy,freedom of choice and human rights which is what America and all free nations are about. Our intentions were completely misunderstood.We live in the 21st century.Time to shed old suffocating ideology and prejudisms.And I don't take any of my freedoms for granted.It was hard fought for and protected by our laws.
The Jewish promised land given to them by Heshem(God) was the land of Judea.How much of that have they gotten back?The Messianic prophecy has to with the Messiah's arrival at the endtimes when Isreal is complete.Does this coincide with 2012?According to one of Sholomo's posts several months ago on this forum this won't happen for at least another 200+ years.I have an apocolyptic dream for this region and it has nothing to do with destruction by an atomic or neuclear bomb--rather it's by nature and God's hand....and it starts in the Megido Valley(Armagedon)
Are there any descendents of Mohhamed living in this world today?especially after his grandson was killed 1300+ years ago and will the blood fued between the Sunnis and Shi-ites ever end?Who is in control of Islam at this time?What do you think your religion would be if Mohhamed hadn't met the angel Gabriel and established Islam?
I also saw the statistic pie in regards to humankind's religions.I'm in one of the minorities--one of the smaller percentages.And mine is by choice.I was raised as a freedom-loving thinker.
What were the questions you wanted me to answer?I might have missed a few when I tried to write the posts because I picked the ones I thought were important.Sorry about that....and I don't mean to offend anyone.
Well I got to go look at the horoscopes and do my other readings for today.The moon is still in Aquarius ----let's pray for an altruistic peace and I hope the fires get completely contained in Greece,soon.
Name:sam •
Date: 08/28/07 21:37
A: Panluna,
".I also viewed the clips on the CNN TV web-page.Very interesting "
CNN is owned by Jews and controled by the American, and like the other media all around the western world, (newspaper, radio and cinema etc. ) all well planned and organized. Those are the new Jewish and Christians warriors behind the scene, they try to hide the truth.
In the Jews warriors they did not show the stories of killings and stealing the other people land, and in he christian warriors they did not show the killing and the distruction of another country. Bush and his people lied , and they were controlled by the church people, and their armies from all over Europe came carrying the cross on their neck and their priests came with them.
All what the CNN showed about the the christians warriors, are scenes from the churches and the political agenda of the Jews and the evangelist christians who control the two houses and all the political figueres, and how they are in power and they preach to kill the muslims and to throw out the Palestinian people from their homes andcollect money for the war against the muslims.
What happen in the 11 or England and Spain all are the results of what happen in Palestine and Algeria and Lebanon and Syria and Saudi Arabia. The Armies of Engand and Spain are in Iraq killing people for no reasons, the Iraqi never attacked England or Spain before, and the American have no right to be in the Muslim holy land, since the communist are no a treat anymore, so why they do not go home and leave people alone?.
Jews and christians are switching the truth, the are always lying since the time of Paul (the jewish christian guy).
We should not forget that ben laden and chenny were friends and so Saddam, when he was fighting the Iranian.
"the threats to destroy America "
That is what the Jewish and Christians warriors in the media, and in the churches ans synagogue, in the US, and all around the western world try to fill the empty people head with, and only the stupid and the one who do not know the fact believe in such a lie.
This policy of scaring people, so they can hate the Muslims and to go and fight them, and it is working well !!!.
Panluna if you believe in such a thing, then you tell which muslim country has the power to stand in front of anyone of the super power countries of the west ( US, Engaland, France, Canada, Russia Germany etc. all Christians countries ) or in the east (China, Japan, India etc. all Hindu and buddhist countries).
The American lied to the world when they claim that Iraq is the forth strongest army in the world (propoganda), while the distroy it in 100 hours and killedd 600 thousand Muslims in that country.
Was Iraq the forht, did people forget Engald, France, Japan and Brazil and India. I cannot believe that thare so much stupid and naive people around the world that believe everything that will come to them by bush and by his media machine as CNN and the many (J) others.
Do you know, or did you forget that the state has 25 thousand + atom and hydrogen bombs and the missile to deliver them anywhere on this earth, and how much air and sea power and how may millions in army all around the world, (they show their power and flex their muscles to frighten the rest of the world , you can watch everything on TV and in the papers and everwhere else) adding to that the powers and arm of their friends in the west. So can be that any of the muslim poor country be a "threats to destroy America "???.
If you know that any muslims country is to mutch any of the super power country in the west please mention it to me.
No one muslim coutry produce planes or tanks or warships or big gun, but they are forced to buy the second-hand arms from the west (as Quatar and Dbai and Saudies and the other tiny countries, and the arms that kills people in africa are made in the christian countries) and from the east (Chins and Korea etc).
Panluna did you watch the the people in the "Evangelican " churches, collecting money for Israel, and posting the flags and the symbo;s of the countries, and they try to advance in power to control the State. Can that be done in the house which we call the house of God, which only be kept clean away from business, and should be ket to pray to God and not to war. Did you see the brain washed followers dancing and jumping as if they are in the streets. if you see them as good christians, I do see them acting like the monkeys. No one with a clear and a conscious mind will accept the teaching of Abraham and Moses and Jesus to come to that very low level.
Did you see the women dislplayed naked in windows in Holland, They are in display in all major cities in the western world, some on the corner of the streets others on the bars and the strip places. When by chance we pass in a street in Hamburgh (with my three brothers-1963) it was a shock for us. I don't think that Jesus or God will agree to what the christian are doing, Mary His mother will be ashamed to see women sold in the street while her image are displayed in the churches at the corner of those streets.
...............-..................
Fro-m- "THE NATION", the devil inside, I read the following:
"Every week brings a new revelation about the millions in dirty money Reed earned by duping his fellow evangelicals into putting their political muscle behind "Casino Jack" Abramoff's gambling clients. Reed's huge leads in both popularity polls and fundraising have almost disappeared. Instead of making his triumphant debut as a politician, the man Time magazine called "The Right Hand of God" is fast becoming the new poster boy for Christian-right corruption. "
I think most of those who preach christianity TODAY are "THE RIGHT HAND OF THE DEVIL"
Did you hear about the abuse of children in the churches and under the cross the staues of jesus and Mary (by whom?,by the one who carry big cross on their neck). did you hear abou the R. senate who been caught in tha airport washroom, I wonder if he was carrying the cross on his neck and the bible in his pochet?.
This is part one, part two "THE PEOMISS LAND, AND THE CHOSEN PEOPLE" will come later.
God bless you.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 08/28/07 22:28
A: Sam,
There is always two sides to a coin and something new to learn every day.Did you get to watch the lunar eclipse last night?It was beautiful!! We could see it in it's entirety.Well where as people disappoint---Nature and the Universe never disappoint in the power of their awesome splendor.Watching last night ' s eclipse made me forget a world full of problems.Too bad there is no way to settle past injustices and let bygones be bygones.Where there is peace there will be strife--the Law of Opposites rules the world.
Name:betty47 •
Date: 08/29/07 2:54
A: Sam,
Some of these thoughts you raise scare me. They are very anti-Jewish and the sad thing is that anti-semitism is on the rise again.
Name:CanuckChick •
Date: 08/29/07 14:18
A: Betty: I believe that most of the world's organized religions are guilty of misleading their people and preventing them from coming to know the true God.
Islam is no exception - only difference being that those who speak out against its evils must fear the wrath of its somewhat volatile followers.
Ever hear of a "charming" fellow named Grand Mufti Muhammad Hajj Amin Al-Husayni? He had very close ties with the Nazis before and during WW2. When it became apparent that Hitler and his cronies were going to expell the Jews from Germany, Husayni knew that many would head for Palestine, and threaten the status quo of the Muslims living there.
He took it upon himself to convince the Nazi leaders of the need to dispatch the Jews on a more permanent basis. Emmigration was then forbidden for the Jewish people and we all know the sad result - 6 million dead.
The Nazis had a sterling example to follow in the matter of genocide - read about the 1915 Armenian Holocaust which took the lives of 1.3 million Christians - slaughtered by the Muslim Ottoman Turk Army.
Here's the link to info about Husayni:
http://www.prophetofdoom.net/Is-lamic_Clubs_Mufti_Mujahideen.Islam
Som-e- people are woefully ignorant regarding the history of their chosen religion. Honest hearted ones will dig until they find the truth.
Peace.
CC
Name:betty47 •
Date: 08/30/07 4:59
A: CanuckChick:
Thank you for your thoughts and response. Wasn't this Grand Mufti, the Uncle of Yaser Arafat, and doesn't legend have it that the young Yaser was in the room when the Grand Mufti and Hitler were discussing the final solution of the Jews? The consequences of that discussion reverberated through history in more ways than one as the adult Yaser Arafat kept trying to eliminate the Jews anyway he could. I'm not saying that Christians or others are perfect, but those who forget history are condemned to repeat it, as the saying goes. Many say that Islam treated Jews and Christians nicely when it ruled over them, but forget that Muslims forbid Jews or Christians to pray at their holy sites when Jerusalem was in Muslim/Jordanian control. Jews still can't pray at the Temple Mount even though they rule the territory in Israel because Muslim mobs to this day won't let them. So much for Muslim tolerance. The slaughter of the Armenians was horrible too. The suffering of the Armenians is often swept under the rug so thank you for bringing it up. We should all pray for peace which is what all religions are suppose to stand for, and pray for the souls of innocent people killed everywhere.
Name:betty47 •
Date: 08/30/07 5:43
A: The show mentioned above, "God's Warriors", is being widely condemned in many circles as being too kind to Muslim fanatics and too harsh on Christianity and Judaism. Major corporations are starting to pull advertising dollars from CNN. See more about this at www.camera.org, and learn how you can speak up if you are concerned too.
Name:sam •
Date: 09/02/07 0:28
A: Hi Panluna,
I agree with you about,
A- "There is always two sides to a coin "
But that is only when we flip the coin and see that there is different picture on each side, but that is will not change the value of the coin, the dollar value will be the same no matter what side we look at. The value of the coin will change only by the materials that is in it, BRONZE, SILVER or GOLD, and there are the coins which lost their faces and lost their values.
Also I agree with you 100% about,
B- "and something new to learn every day".
And here, when I agree that we learn, "SOMETHING NEW" every day, but I do not agree that everything NEW that we/people learn has the SAME VALUE.
We should understand that there are many different kind of learning, and their sources and their materials that came with are of different values, there is the bronze and the gold and what is in between also there is the garbage too.
We should not accept everything until we check it is values, and you might ask how we can do that? and I will say use the right instruments. First, there is what we call LOGIC & COMMON SENCE and we should USE them, second, EVALUATION (according to our beliefs-God's laws and not the laws of John and Ali and Jacob), third, the HUMAN & HUMANITY, and their values, fourth, seek the SCIENCE, and I think we came to the age when many things can be solved in scientific ways even in the religions.
In my learning everyday for the new things that will come to me from all sources, I try my best to be neutral and free, and away from any influence, and use the instruments from logic to science etc.
Even though, I cannot call miself perfect or 100% correct or my judgment cannot be questioned, but I would like those who question my finding use the same instrument to prove me wrong, and not by throwing words which sometimes has no value because was not supported by facts or logic or science, and not even the common sence,
Here we are talking about Ideas, is it real or false?, and mostly came from religion origin , since the subject was in this post from the biginnings about the tomb of Jesus, and led us to discuss everything else related to Jesus and His family and to the right and wrong in that beliefs.
While the dicussions has two sides, there is only one side that hold the truth, and that is from the point of LOGIC, put the other side as false.
But who is right and who is wrong cannot be judged by just empty talk, but through presenting the facts and put the books and the teaching on the table and see if is the same as what we came upon fron new information that came by the many discoveries up to date.
If wat been discovered is true and shows us the right things then the teachings were false. and the judgment should be kept to the scientific communities only, and not the people who preaches and teaching wrong.
God bless you.
Name:eirini_cy •
Date: 09/03/07 16:33
A: r3 - by the way about the Greek - you are correct - it does look like Kai - which is And in greek
second KRS you read greek script - ok great me also - isnt it not very very strange Maria osscuary is written in Modern Greek? not the ancient form?
I have showed my parents and friends in Greece and all have agreed its Modern Greek - not ancient which was most likely spoken during the time of Jesus - the modern form was definatly not...
i thnik its a very poor error and a fake....
Name:sam •
Date: 09/04/07 0:50
A: CanuckChick,
You said, " Betty: I believe that most of the world's organized religions are guilty of misleading their people and preventing them from coming to know the true God."
My questions to you both are,:
1- "Do you know the true God? and what He looks like?,
2- "Do you know His name?, the name that been mentioned by Abraham and Moses and Jesus"
3- "Do you know that HIS name differ in every christian country?. The English god, and the French diew etc."
4- "Do you know that ALLAH name [ARAMAIC] been used by Abraham, Moses and Jesus and all their followers, until the Romans and the Greeks took over?, and do you know that ALLAH name [ARABIC] is used by every Muslim all around the world, and in every muslim and non-muslim country and no matter what the coutry language is?"
5- "Does the christians worship God, or Jesus?"
6- "Does christians follow God or the churches?"
7- "Who is the real christian, A- the Roman catholic, B- the Protestant, C- the Anglican, D- the Mormon, E- the evangelican, F- the Coptic, G- the Sciencetologist, H- the etc.
Here some information that you might nissed:
from "Ontario consultants on religious tolerance"
Christian meta-groups, wings, families, denominations, faith groups, & belief systems.
--"Other individuals and groups have much narrower definitions of the term. They often believe that their faith group is the "true" Christian religion, and that others are in error. That is certainly their right, but it does cause a great deal of confusion, frustration, anger, and conflict."
Many hundreds of denominations: There are on the order of 1,200 Christian organizations in North America.
Their names range from the Amish to The Way.
We have essays describing some of them.
Four to eight meta-groups: Most of the Christian denominations and sects in the world can be sorted into about eight segments or branches: Roman Catholicism,
Eastern Orthodoxy,
Oriental Orthodox and Assyrian Churches,
Protestantism
Restorationists
Anglican Communion
Pentecostals
Others
Like in the area of politics, Christians and Christian groups can be divided into conservative and liberal wings, according to their belief systems. Their teaching on abortion access, origins of the earth and the rest of the universe, equal rights for gays and lesbians, and same-sex marriage, are four indicators of their location on the liberal- conservative continuum. Fundamentalists, other Evangelical Protestants, Roman Catholics, and Eastern Orthodoxy, and such varied groups as the Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Unification Church, etc. generally form the conservative wing;
The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, Progressive Christianity, Evolutionary Christianity, United Church of Christ, United Church of Canada and others form the liberal wing.
Often, a third, mainline wing is added, composed of such denominations as: American Baptist Churches in the USA, Presbyterian Church (USA), United Methodist Church, Episcopal Church, etc.
------Christianity is not a religion to worship God, and keep His laws, BUT IT IS A POLITICAL PRACTICE. It was developed by by PAUL to serve him and his followers only.
Denominations can be sorted into 15 families, according to their historical roots. 1
Examples are the Adventist, Baptist, Lutheran, Pentecostal, and Presbyterian families.
Theological beliefs: There are many systems of theological beliefs within Christianity.
They often cut across denominational boundaries.
Members of an single congregation may hold conflicting belief systems.
Examples are Arminianism, British Israelism, Calvinism, Christian Identity, Universalism, etc.
The Barna Research Group, arguably the most important polling group working in the religious and spiritual area, sorts individuals into five faith segments according to their theological beliefs.
Conflicts: How religions established, changed, and continue to change their teachings on slavery, the role of women, sexual orientation, etc.
Religious friction within mainline denominations
Religious differences among denominations
Destructive, dangerous, doomsday Cults
Disagreement over which is the "true" church. Which do some Mormons believe is the true church?
Faith Group or tradition Founder Date (CE) Location
.................................-...................................-.............................
Roma-n- Catholic Jesus, Peter 1 Circa 30 1 Palestine
Orthodox churches Jesus, Paul 2 Circa 30 2 Palestine
Lutheranism Martin Luther 1517 Germany
Swiss Reformed Church Zwingli 1523 Switzerland
Mennonites No single founder 1525 Switzerland
Anglican Communion King Henry 8 1534 England
Calvinism John Calvin 1536 Switzerland
Presbyterianism John Knox 1560 Scotland
Baptist Churches John Smyth 1605 Holland
Dutch Reformed Michaelis Jones 1628 Netherlands
Amish Jakob Ammann 1693 Switzerland
Methodism John Wesley 1739 England
Quakers George Fox 1647 England
Moravians Count Zinendorf 1727 Germany
Congregationalism John & Charles Wesley 1744 England
Swedenborg Emanuel Swedenborg 1747 Sweden
Brethren John Darby 1828 England
Latter-day Saints Joseph Smith 1830 NY, USA
Seventh Day Adventists Ellen White 1860 NH, USA
Salvation Army William Booth 1865 England
Jehovah's Witnesses Charles Russell 1870 PA, USA
Christian Science Mary Baker Eddy 1879 Pleasant View, NH USA
Pentecostalism Charles Parham 1900 CA, USA
Worldwide Church of God Herbert W. Armstrong 1933/1947 OR, USA 3
Unification Church Sun Myung Moon 1954 South Korea
----- If we look at the list above we notice that they claim that Jesus was the founder of the following churches!!!!,
Roman Catholic Jesus, Peter in Palestine
Orthodox churches Jesus, Paul in Palestine
My questions now to you both as knowledgable christians:
1- "Do you believe that Jesus is the founder of these two churches?"
2- " Why should Jesus founded two churches and not one?"
3- "Did Jesus bring one message to all the people, or many different messages?"
4- "Did the Roman catholic and the Orthodox churches were found in Palestine?"
5- "Did Jesus named those churches and the many others?"
6- "do you agree with me that the christians are lying when they claim that Jesus founded two churches so they can be against each other?"
I wish that at list ones you give your answers to my questions and if you do not agree with me explain WHY, and do not try to jump around and talk about something else as usual, because that by itself shows the qualities of yourself and your beliefs too.
God bless you.
Name:roy •
Date: 09/06/07 11:53
A: CanuckChick and Betty,
I have seen your posts on Turks who were claimed to be guilty of killing 1.3 million christian Armenians.
You have not only blame Mufti Mujahedeen of jarusalem but also tell that he was major cause of killing other jews in Europe who was forbidden for them to move. Be sane a little bit!
On the same print you claim the jews nd christians are the only sacrifices of the terrible war crimes.
You create a new nation or race which is damned with name of "nazis" . who were they? a nation came on earth during 1939 and suddenly dissappeared after 1945? maybe they are called germans, austrians? Sorry it is too much sin to accuse them innocent civilised nations that they might not posible do such bad things, because highness noble of their blood may not let such a wrongdoing of humankind!
Is there any relations or even a remote kinship with the today german, austrian, danish, french living nations? !! The offsprings of them has the harshest hatred movements against the other races & religions except themselves at todays civilized world, where no open fight exist.
You have great mistakes misjudgements about turks especially muslims. Have you read the opposite argument before deciding on who was right who was wrong?
Real muslim teaching tell;they can not kill any unmilitaristic figure unless they are attacked by weapons.
Turks had no intention to kill their citizens, which were part of the nation with leading roles at the government, untill the armenians started to kill their own neighbors to claim land for the newly emerging world order after collapse of Ottomans. It was done by the encouragement of French nationals ( CC s anchestors) as they were not sufficient to defeat turks, they needed allies from the very own Otoman land.
Armenians were not accounted that many of 1,3 million on face of universe at 1915. They were not more than hundreds of thousands. How is it possible to kill 1,3 million human who doesnt exist?
The Ottoman archives are open today as well as last hunderd years. The turkish historians ask even beg the foreign conterparts to come and search for any evidence to genocide. There is no reply. On the other part. Historians ask the Armenian state to show, allow entrence their archives, pictures, orders to kill ect at their Armenia capital. They dont let anyone . They arrest the ones who claim opposite even from their own national. The journalist author is in jail for 10 years even today in Armenia.
The turk politicians declare open allowance to dig search, excavate any part of turkey if they claim there is genocide graveyard. There is no reply or no one with an aplication to make the find. On the contrary the genocide graves we find many years in the past belongs to turkish muslims who were burried with the Kurans in their hands.
In 800 years of Otoman turk history there is no genocide evidence whatsoever. You cant find any with a few people together let alone 1,3 million people together.
The conflict solution formula has been to move the group from where they cause problem to another place. It has been done by the state to the turk families who fight between themselves too. This was legitimized to the Armenians as well as greeks origin.
The nation were at war at every direction in bounderies even by the muslim arabs turks has been sold to english and french. All young men were at army most of them wouldnt have returned. The armenian youngsters who were not eligible for the army because of their faith, who left behind at the same vilages where they lived thousand years, started to kill the rest of the turk families, old men and children alike. What can you do as a state except to order the ones cause proplems to leave the place to another land in the same empire (Syria, Armenia etc ..) in 1915?
The greeks were also forced to move to greece of today and the turks to move turkey of today at the same years 1920-1922. the numbers are around 1,4 million greeks, versus 400 thousand turks. There were bitter fights between twe two because of English spies again. In so pitiful seperation that greeks who were moved didnt know greek language except turkish language. They were held foreigners in Greece until even now. Their religion were christian only. It proves the tolerance of turkish muslim government. I visit their villages today in Greece and I talk turkish even after 100 years past. They welcome me as if their family. They had no hatred but longing for turkey and their turk neighbors.
These are bitter stories, but there is no smear or slander by greeks of today against turks claiming they killed 3 million greeks of that time.
The reason why armenians bring up such lies they dont have a hope in their Armenia country of today for living. They expect war repercussions from Turkey. People deserted the country of Armenia to all over the world, California, France, canada…
They are begging officially and politically to open the gates of borders for free trade with Turks, but as their government insist on false claims and open enemyhood, it is closed. On the merciful side of Turkish nation story, they sell the armenians through Georgia, by trucks loads of food. Because it is believed the armenian nation is innocent, the terrorist group that led the 1915 killings are ruling todays Armenia without any democratic elections took place for years. They are enslaved by themselves.
Turkey has armenian, jewish nationals today. They are living peacefully, enjoying full right as other nations. However the outsiders who doesnt like peace wants to seed hatred as in the past. Especially some jews who had the article webpage in CC post has got so big hatred in their consience that no power on earth can convince them, muslims are friend of jews as proven for 1400 years. They enjoyed the freedom unlike any nation.
When it comes to german, european friends of them to defend their innocency, they took it to the extend that muslim has caused hollocust . Such a grief! This shows they understand from language of power only?
We were instructed in Kuran be fair ,equitable and proper legal assessment even it if it is against your own family. This is the secret of keeping multinationals under your command for 2 thousand years.
I end with God's words suporting this argument:
5:8 O ye who believe! Be steadfast witnesses for Allah in equity, and let not hatred of any people seduce you that ye deal not justly. Deal justly, that is nearer to your duty. Observe your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is Informed of what ye do.
60:8 Allah forbiddeth you not those who warred not against you on account of religion and drove you not out from your homes, that ye should show them kindness and deal justly with them. Lo! Allah loveth the just dealers.
49:9 And if two parties of believers fall to fighting, then make peace between them. And if one party of them doth wrong to the other, fight ye that which doth wrong till it return unto the ordinance of Allah; then, if it return, make peace between them justly, and act equitably. Lo! Allah loveth the equitable.
6:152 …We task not any soul beyond its scope. And if ye give your word, do justice thereunto, even though it be (against) a kinsman; and fulfil the covenant of Allah. This He commandeth you that haply ye may remember.
Name:sam •
Date: 09/06/07 14:12
A: Hi roy,
CanuckChick and Betty, and Bush and Blair and hundred of millions of christians and Jews are creating all sorts of lies against Islam and Muslims, to justify their war against them and to cover their crimes all around the world not only against the Muslims but against anyone one who is not christians (can anyone forget Bush when he said, "if you are not with us, you are against us!!!). That mean if you don't follow us you are our enemy. what kind of mentality they had!!!.
Yesterday I watched the "Fahrenheit 9/11" and last week I watched the "God warriors- the christians" , and both done by the christians and both they show the real policies of the christians leader today, which did not change much from when the Islam came to this world.
Both programs show the hate towards Muslims, and both show their greed, they do want to steal the land and the resources which does not belong to them. I don't that came from the teaching of Moses or Jesus, but came from the teaching of PAUL [he was not at anytime a christian], and the teaching of the Roman and they been known for their crueleties.
Watching those programs will give anyone with clear and open mind the real picture of what is going on from atrocities against the Muslims.
God bless you.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 09/06/07 15:23
A: Hello,Eirini_cy
In the Essential Facts section read about the Ossuary inscriptions.The ossuaries in the tomb were undisturbed for nearly 2000 years until 1980 when the tomb was bull-dozed open.One of the ossuaries--the James Ossuary was stolen when the ten coffins where catalogued and placed in a warehouse by the Isreali Antiquities Authority or IAA.You can read the rest of the facts.Also I'm sure your Public Library has a copy of the book The JESUS FAMILY TOMB if you don't want to buy one--the book is much more detailed and indepth.I found watching the movie The Lost Tomb of Jesus several times helped me to catch up with the facts I missed the first time I viewed it.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 09/06/07 15:30
A: Sam and Roy,
Do you think we are headed for World War 3 as predicted to start next year?Is this the Great Jihad fortold?Using free-will can we keep it from happening?In your own words how would you convince the world that world Peace is the better choice over World War 3 and how can we achieve it?
Name:roy •
Date: 09/06/07 18:01
A: Hi Sam, Panluna
You are correct in premeditated fight of Paul followers against any non-like thinkers & believers. I remember the English at India. It is estimated 10 million Indians has been killed during their occupation. They took the crimes at so casual level that to protect their woven fabric sector, against competition they cut hands of Indian hand manufacturers of fabrics.
English has used another method in Egypt against enslaved turks, during 1st world war. They blinded 15 thousand men before they let them return their homes.
Aborgin nation has been hunted like animals by the early arrival of anglo saxons, English mayor even took it up to reward on the head.
The hatred is so big that even muslim countries and turks did not involved in second world war, they has accused us. Some hatred blindfold jews kept prejudice against muslims, although they saved them from getting killed with their hospitality inherited to veins. The naďve muslims of then Palestine sold many properties to jews who ran away cruelty of European allies, even accepted them as neighbors, finally what they did is take control declare a new state and kill the rest. They forgat the victims are from their race only difference who accepted muslim religion.
Christians has made such crimes against each other since Roman empire. Dutch has been killed overnight in thousands by French, in red rose wars, protestant versus catholic. Irish is still under terror by the same reason today's Britain.
French has been attacking and killing Algerian people by tens of thousands who fought for independence. Their fake-fame French liberation at 1789 was full with blood. It is so well marketed to the world that the behind the scene killings of thinkers has been sealed off, they are triumphant of freedom.
I have beloved friends from USA, Spain, Italy, France, England, Israel, Greece of today. I have no prejudice against their faith or nation. But when I hear so cheap shots and raw thoughts from the nationals of that countries, I cant stand the low level of knowledge, high level of hate. Why do they envy muslims instead of emulate the peace they offer to the world? Some of the barbaric looking muslim countries of today is left behind because of the manipulations, hidden backings, undercover operations of bloody revolutions of that "civilized" nations secret services. Once dictator is to the power typically he omits education, keeps tab on revenues which is transmitted to Swiss banks or ally country funds. If someone stands against their will then the reasons are ready and abundant to kill the innocent millions just to change the ex-ally tyrant like Saddam or Nikaraguan Noriega, or Taliban Al kaida. Now almost time is ripe for Pakistani Musharraf.
There is no 3rd World war of Jihad foretold in Islamic literature. Actually there is no dooms day scenario being written to real religious books. I guess a party of Christian faith Evangelists and Jews believes in order to bring the dooms day sooner they must create awesome fight on earth, only then Jesus will resurrect and save the world for 40 years. Ironic enough muslims took the idea and elaborated with Islamic motives such as Christ will arrive to a mosque minaret at Syria near Damascus, of course will be a muslim, will immediately come down into the mosque and stand behind Mehdi for the evening prayer. Mehdi is a muslim preparing helping consultant to him before Jesus comes down. In this expectations Islamic states has produced tens of Mehdis throughout centuries. Unfortunately Jesus didn’t come in their lifetime. Eyes are still to the skies of arrival! Tim eis set for 2012, previously it was 774, 1800, 1974,2000,2003…
It is openly enough declared in Quran that last prophet is Mohammed (Sav). No such war catastrophic future is predetermined by God. The end of the world & universe will come all of a sudden. In this event there will be no action of men in effect. So Mr. Bush and alike is trying in vain to bring Jesus down and make the final ending of the universe regarding themselves holy figures. By the way thousands of their own countrymen perish in their hunger for reaching this false God will.
Canuckchick and her faith believers Jehova's Witness has been also claimant that Jesus arrived at 1874 or so later revised the date 1914 and the Golden age of 100 years has started. Such a golden age has killed more than half of living men on earth world wide in 2 wars.
There is no single Peace formula, stay firm and pray we all can do! This is only our duty. The rest of it leave it to God.
Name:sam •
Date: 09/07/07 17:18
A: Hi Panluna,
Your questions to me and Roy, were answered quite well first by Roy, and He gave the clear and the right picture, and show you who is creating wars in the first place, all that which I wrote and explained many times before, but it seems that you still bring the same questions!!!, I wonder sometimes if you read the history of all the wars that happen at list in the last three centuries?.
A- "Do you think we are headed for World War 3 as predicted to start next year?
----- The one who knows the answer to that are the one who preaches wars and those who creates more advanced killing machines, but if you do not know yet who are they , then I will say that they are the same one who fought all the world wars in the past. US, Russia, England , France, Germant etc. in Europe, and China, India, Japan in Asia.
Here you will ask this question , "what about Pakistan or Iran" My answer is, any person with functioning and clean brain will know the fact that those country are not mutch to any other country in the west or the east. If Iraq as discribed as a great power by Bush before been attacked, then it was brought into a ruins in only few days, then Iran or Pakistan has no chance to survive, and both know this fact and they neve create the war,if were to face all those powerful western or eastern country.
Bush and Blair and all the rest of the christian countries around the world are lying, and that what happen to Iraq and that is what they are planing for the future wars to destroy Muslims counties and kill as much as they can of it is people.
B- Is this the Great Jihad fortold?
----- No it is not, but that is the picture which the christian leaders [Bush, etc] they try to fill the people head with so they can have a good support in their wars, which is a wars to make $$$$, [petrol, and arms]
Did you watch the decomentery "Fahrenheit 9/11" ?. It show the truth of what was behind the war of Iraq, and the corporations which been controled by the top politcians and the billions of dollars that Bush & Bush and their servants make.
C- Using free-will can we keep it from happening?
---- While there are war-mongols, and supported by some churches [Angelicans -today christians God warriors, and the popes of Rome] and supported by the greedy people who make a lot of profits from wars, the free-will , and those people who ask and wanted peace has no chance in bringing peace or diverting wars, not at all, and that is a fact.
D- In your own words how would you convince the world that world Peace is the better choice over World War 3
---- the facts are clear to anyone with working brain, that war brings distructions and miseries, while peace brings prosperity and happiness. But the problem is, most people even the know these facts the will egnore them when they put in their mind that they are christian first and they want to be in controll of the world, and that is a fact.
"Peace" has no arms to fight with, but the "war" has all the arms to kill the peace.
God bless you.
and how can we achieve it?
Name:sam •
Date: 09/07/07 22:06
A: Panluna,
I was rushed to leave, and did not give the answer for your last question.
First, I would like to change the last statement, "Peace" has no arms to fight with, but the "war" has all the arms to kill the peace."
To , "PEACE HAS NO ARMS TO STOP THE WAR, BUT THE "WAR" HAS ALL THE ARMS TO KILL THE PEACE, AND THE VOICE OF "PEACE" WILL BE SHUTTERED BY THE VOICE OF GUN."
E- and how can we achieve it?
---- The only way to achieve peace is when we grow up and look at the people around us and see them as brothers and sisters, no matter what colour they have or what language they speak, or what religion they follow, and when we understand really what the commandments of God and the teaching of the righteous tells us.
Because when person kills his brothers and sister he will be ranked much lower than the animals, because the animal do not kill their own family.
We are human and belong to one family.
God bless you.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 09/07/07 23:49
A: Hi Sam and Roy,
Thank you for honest opinions and answers.I haven't watched Faranheit 9/11 yet.And I don't think that the culprit is just one group.There are many who gain through other peoples losses. As I see it Peace has a weapon --it's an ally called Love--the greatest of all human emotions....So when those who want to destroy live and die by the sword the meek shall inherit the earth.As they say Love conquers all.
Name:sam •
Date: 09/08/07 17:08
A: Hi Panluna,
A- Peace has a weapon --it's an ally called Love--the greatest of all human emotions....
---- You are right, love is the greatest weapon, and suppose to be PURE , and in total to work (one sided love will never works), I did give an example about it when I say, ["when we grow up and look at the people around us and see them as brothers and sisters (here the true and real love created), no matter what colour they have or what language they speak, or what religion they follow, and when we understand really what the commandments of God and the teaching of the righteous tells us."]
otherwise LOVE is not but a beautiful emotion, and an empty word which does not help in bringing peace.
Let Us go to the holy books and see the examples and what it teaches us:
By the words of Jesus,
M-5:43 "You have heard that it was said, 'you shall LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and HATE YOUR ENEMY.'
---- When Jesus mentioned that, He was quoting the teaching that came before Him in the in the Torah, and which He did not agree with, because He knows that God teaches love only and not hate. So He said:
M- 5:44 "But I say to you, LOVE YOUR ENEMIES and pray for those who persecute you."
---Here we can see the real love, but does the followers of Jesus [the Christians] follow His words?. Is that mean that the word of LOVE is no more than ink on paper?. Does the chritians hate not only against the others but there are a lot of hate among themselves?.
By the words of the Quran,
Q-49:12 O you who have believed, AVOID MUCH [NEGATIVE] ASSUMPTION. Indeed, some assumption is SIN. And DO NOT SPY or BACKBITE EACH OTHER......
Q-49:13 O MANKIND {THIS IS A MESSAGE TO ALL HUMANS}, Indeed WE have created you from MALE and FEMALE and made you PEOPLES and TRIBES that you may know one another. Indeed, THE MOST NOBLE OF YOU IN THE SIGHT OF ALLAH [GOD] IS THE MOST RIGHTEOUS OF YOU....
Q- 28:77 But seek, through that which Allah has given you, the home of the Hereafte; and [yet], do not forget your share of the world. AND DO GOOD AS ALLAH HAS DONE GOOD TO YOU.
AND DESIRE NOT CORRUPTION IN THE LAND. Indeed, Allah does not like corruptors.
---- Here we see a wide range of things that God asked the people not to do,
NEGATIVE ASSUMPTION....SPYING....BACKBITE EACH OTHER (talking bad things about people behind their back)....DESIRE NOT CORRUPTION IN THE LAND [killing people or any other sorts of life for no reason is CORRUPTION].
Or do good,
AND DO GOOD AS ALLAH HAS DONE GOOD TO YOU.
And be good,
THE MOST NOBLE OF YOU IN THE SIGHT OF ALLAH [GOD] IS THE MOST RIGHTEOUS OF YOU....
But here we read the followings from the Bible, which they are no more than stories written by men [Jews] and not by Moses:
Num 13:16 These are the names of the men which Moses sent to SPY out the land. And Moses called Oshea the son of Nun Jehoshua.
Num 13:17 And Moses sent them to SPY out the land of Canaan, and said unto them, Get you up this way southward, and go up into the mountain.
---- Moses was not a spy, and He will not use the spying methods to acheave His message. God does not want HIS people to spy on each other, or to take the other people land and kill them before first teach them God words.
Gen 21:10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham, CAST OUT THIS BONDWOMAN AND HER SON : for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.
---- What the Bible teaches are made by man and not by God, So, when they look at themselves as the God chosen people, that is wrong, because God chosen people are only the righteous ones, and telling their people that Sarah the rich and her children are better than Hagar the bondwoman and the poor and her children, while forgetting that those are all Abraham children, all that a wrong teaching. All people are God's people, and when we claim that one is chosen and is not, then we for sure put the seeds of hatred and let it grow.
B- As they say Love conquers all.
---- Love, if it did not follow exactly the words of God and the teachings that came to us by the commandment and the words of Jesus and the words of the Quran and all brought and put and joined together as they are God's words, to be the shield that rotect love, then love will lose the battle. That is a fact and there are many proofs in front of us.
Christian who love Christians but hates the others, and Muslim who love Muslims and hates the others, are not Christian or Muslim, and the love that they talk about is not true love and might be able to change, because the real love is the pure love and towards all. We cannot call it love when it is smeared or mixed with hate, and love has no partnership with hate.
When hate goes ito ones heart, then there will be not much room for love.
God bless you
Name:eirini_cy •
Date: 09/10/07 3:49
A: Panluna - I have seen the inscription from the tomb....
If it was 'undisturbed' until 1980 - then the Mariamne inscription was made at a date from 1980 onwards
If it was made before the 1980 discovery then the Tomb simply had been disturbed in the past few decades and if the people say that it was NOT disturbed since all 10 ossuaries were inside - then the fact that its in modern greek means that the ossusuary is a fake
I would like the creaters of the book and movie to explain why its in Modern Greek - ;) - the reason it was not explained in the movie is that it would destroy the arguement that its Mary Magdalines...cause I can tell you now its not - ask any greek speaker ;) its not from ancient times!
Name:Panluna •
Date: 09/10/07 23:33
A: eirini_ci
Did you see it in the book,on the movie or another link?The ossuary in question was the Jame's ossuary.If you have a source for the picture I would like to see it.As far as I know the inner chamber of the tomb where the ossuaries were wasn't disturbed for nearly 2000 years but someone during the time of the Knight Templars actually entered the ante-chamber and held a ceromony with three sculls set in a triangle.Also some of the artifacts like cups ,plates etc were stolen or collected by someone during the quest for the Holy Grail.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 09/11/07 8:48
A: Hi Eirini_cy,
Sorry about mispelling your name on my previous post.I had to wait to get on the computor--my husband was using it and I had to get my copy of the JESUS FAMILY TOMB back so that I can get a look at the epigrams.
From what I see there is a distinct difference in the letters chiseled in the side of Mary Magdelene's ossuary.It starts with the letter M.They are both carved at the same depth with the same chisel point.The letters are just as deep and wide in the first word Mariame and the same slant indicating that the same person chiseled the epigram on the side of the ossuary.I don't read or write any foreign words or speak a foreign language fluently. I know both epigrams were done in Greek but I don't agree with you as far as the letters being old Greek then changing into New Greek.Both words are at the same depth chisled with the same tool meaning that it was done at the same time..It is obvious to me that the person who carved the second word Mara meaning teacher was the same person who etched the epigram for the first word.The reason why I'm saying this is because it looks to me like that person tried to cram the last word in on the same line and relised he was running out of space.You can try an experiment with your own handwritting.Write a continuous sentence across a page in one straight line until you reach the margin and you will notice as you get to the end of the page that your handwritting will get smaller and the letters will change their shape.The angle of the letters will change ,too.Also mood plays a strong role in handwritting and personality analysis.
There is one other possibility and that is if another person had chiseled the second word then he would have had to use the same tool to get the same depth.The Mara could have been chisled as an after thought or possibly the person who started the job did not pay attention to the request by the family members to inscribe that distinction and the order was followed by another employee.--you know team work.Or even by the boss.Sometimes we miss things or don't pay attention to a request--it's human nature.You know Daydreaming......
The rosettes are beautifully engraved indicating someone with artistic talents but the epigrams didn't seem to be as clear and cleanly etched with the exception of the letters on the Matthew ossuary.Like I pointed out to you I don't pretend to know Greek,Aramaic or any language other than the English one but the letters on Mary Magdalene's coffin aren't so different that the points can't be matched up and the depth of the letters can't be measured.They will be found to match up very closely as humanly possible.I'm an amature but I do know something about handwritting analysis. On the other hand the family could have been trying to protect the remains from desecration by the Romans and other enemies so they kept everything as plain as possible.What ever the reasons may they rest in peace.
Name:betty47 •
Date: 09/11/07 12:24
A: On this coming anniversary of 911, let me repeat the great words of Rabbi Hillel, do on to others as you would like them to do onto you.
Happy Roshana to all my Jewish friends. May you have a sweet and happy new year. May you be inscribed in the book of life for another year, and may you be protected from hate and violence.
To all Mulims in the world who spread hate, anti-semitism, and wicked ways (yes Sam, that includes you), shame on you.
Name:betty47 •
Date: 09/11/07 12:27
A: My personal opinion is that Christians should observe Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur as holy days as well as Jews, since Jesus was Jewish and celebrated Jewish holidays. St. Paul erased most things that were Jewish from Christianity. I challenge all ministers and priests to correct this terrible wrong, and return to the Torah that Jesus loved and died for.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 09/11/07 16:22
A: Betty 47,
Are you still picking on Sam? He may be grumpy but he does have a good sense of humor.And he isn't in league with the radical Moslims.He told me so on one of the posts on the NG forum.I believe he was trying to teach us about the Moslim view point and Islam.There is nothing wrong with learning something new even if we don't agree.
I believe Rosh Hashanah is the day of atonement and I will light a candle to honor the memory of those who died on September 11,2001.It's also the start of the New Moon for another 28+ days of the luna cycle.
I'm going to include the following poem as my tribute to the victims of 9/11/2001.It has been previously published in a poetry anthology.
UNLESS WE FORGET 9/11/2001
Dedicated to the victims -- may they rest in peace --and the survivors and the heroes who risk their lives every day.
I saw Heaven in the clouds
A place of freedom and light
In a land of diverse crowds
Living and respecting each person"s rights
I saw a vision of this world
As a globe in the Universe
Where we practiced by the word:
Tolerance as a personal choice
If each of us could reach
That special inner peace
Then Liberty will teach
And hatred will now cease
Since I can make the choice
Between Heaven or Hell on Earth
Then my one singular voice
Shouts Peace for what it is worth
I saw a vision in the heavens
As each day goes sadly by
Let us not forget nine-eleven
Or our Freedom for which they died.
The poem was written by Lorraine Margueritte Gasrel Black
So as I light my peace candle today let us pray for world peace and universal tolerance and understanding and accepting the cultural differences that make us a diverse species but still makes us cousins in the family of humanity.
Bright Blessing to all,
Panluna
Name:betty47 •
Date: 09/12/07 11:13
A: Panluna,
Don't appease anti-semites. I know your family was in Europe during the time of the Nazi's. So was mine. Sam has ranted against the Jews enough on this site to be appalling. He says that the Jews own the media. That's standard anti-semitic propoganda, and should be harshly criticized wherever we find such words. If we forget the past, we are condemed to repeat it, and my fear is the rising anti-semitism around the world, particularly in the Islamic community, is driving a climate of hate we see today. Anti-semites, and I do include Sam, whether anyone likes it or not, will use any excuse they can find to justify their deplorable sayings. Moderate Muslims like Sam, if we can call him that, need to deplore anti-semitism and stand up against the Muslim fanatics, and instead they do not. They say the Muslim fanatics are a minority in their religion. Such words by a moderate like Sam show they are not doing so which gives the fanatics the feeling they can get away with days like 9/11. Let's all say a prayer they will one day change their anti-semitic and horrible ways.
Name:TFS •
Date: 09/12/07 16:36
A: Greetings all,
In answer to the original question of this post, Dr. Tabor addresses this issue on Sept 7th on his blog.
http://jesusdynasty.com-/blog/category/tabor-blog-/-
Name:Panluna •
Date: 09/12/07 19:57
A: Betty47,
My answer to your 9/12/07 7:13 post is posted on the Topic: A Counterfeit "Jesus" are Christians being misled?
the 9/12/07 15:34 entry. I hope it clarifies my position.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 09/12/07 23:22
A: Thank you TFS,
I know the Talpiot tomb is the real one all along.I'm no mathematitcian or professional in any field but I understood the facts presented very clearly and I knew sooner or later the tomb would be found and the 2000 year old debate would finally be settled.So where does Christianity go from here? I see a new beginning on the horizon--the Dawn of Aquarius?-or perhaps 666's era.The paper was very interesting.thanks for mentioning it.
Name:roy •
Date: 09/13/07 8:47
A: Betty47,
Anti semitism is not on the rise in muslim world, it is so in Europe and rest of the world. The reasons are grown into how jews see the rest of the world and human: they are created to serve jews, and it is ok to kill them whenever deem necessary. Plus jews are the only favored nation, and created superior to all. They are even children of God.
Not only this is enough, the promised land must be captured indicating the area between ophrates and tigris rivers~mezapotamia; Irak of today. "God's Sons Kingdom"
Then the big Armageddon war which will be started by muslim attack must take place to speed up arrival of Jesus, and dooms day. After this happens the war will be glory for jews, but with an exception of another enemy they forget, Christians protestant also believe same story in addition that after Armageddon war, they will enter the Jarusalem kill all jews but left only 144,000 people. This jews population will be among whom they believe in Jesus. They will offer Jarusalem to Jesus in goodwill and start ruling world from there at golden age of world. Millennium is the date more specific 2012.
These stories are not invented or written in any islamic traditional books, they are inscription from jewish holly books, and protestants texts.
What we see of today is a mass killing of near a million men women children in Iraq only, millions desperately wounded without any curing hospitals, two million refugees, lack of security. Not to mention sections created between neighbors who were once friendly to the extend that getting married to each other. Kurdish, Turkoman, Sii, Sunni were all given carrots of wealth, property, territory, power then brought into slaughter of each other unprecedented in history of Iraq. Afganistan is another story.
Who does all that? Who interfered the living and made disorder? Who had been behind this portrait, probably not guessed before? Who created fanatic muslim sects and used them against Soviet Russia, Saddam against Iran, Shah Pehlevi of Iran against whomever who knows?
They must be a little sane to be and keep justice between nations," if some killed from my side it is not acceptable, if some killed from them it is acceptable, keep sluggish.!" This approach has caused millions to die for nothing, in the middle of Europe Bosnians Kosovo Albanians were massacred no response from the American English French UN peacekeepers at the scene.
Who are causing or responsible for this world disorder of today? If it is to blame the US senate and leadership in large extend , then who consist of US congress and senate?
Although jews make up only 3% of US population they make up 30 % of US senate and congress.
Is there any blame to them? Can we say no?
How they achieve this is embedded in Hollywood film makers success to mingle with politics. Film makers has also been controlled by Jews. News media also under influence of Jews.
Final result: Although these are the facts, If any war breaks out around the world against Jews, I assure you, the Muslim countries and its people will be the real friends of Jews to get them as neighbors and save them from getting killed. It has repeated several times in the history, it will be repeating in the future if nothing changes in attitudes. Muslims forgive and forget and love humankind, be together with the weak not the aggressor.
The responsible party is not Muslims of the big mess of today. Radical Muslims are only a small fraction like less than 1 percent as it emerge at every non-Muslim society in much higher levels.
Try to love Muslims and understand Islam better before insulting on them. They don't want to make you harm, only want to live in peace in their land.
