Name:Shlomo •
Title: Resurrection or Resuscitation? •
Date posted: 05/22/07 19:21
Q: A Physical Resuscitation or Resurrection?
The lexical evidence is conclusive: not 'resurrection' but 'resuscitation' is the only meaning possible for both these Aramaic words, one of which Jesus used. I am referring to the synonymous words achajuta [rise] and techijuta [come to life]. Both nouns are derived from the verb chaja, 'life', and consequently means resuscitation and nothing else.
Even the Greek does not suggest the translations of the Aramaic original concept which are given in the Christian usage: anasthqi means to 'awaken' (transitive), and to 'get up', 'come forth', 'present oneself' (intransitive; anastasis means 'rising up'. Only by the later Christian interpretation is anasthqi made to mean 'raise from the dead' (transitive) and 'resurrect' (intransitive), and anastasis 'resurrection'.
Ancient Judaism did not know of an anticipated resurrection as an event of history. Nowhere does one find in the literature anything comparable to the resurrection of Jesus. Certainly resurrections of the dead were known, but these always concerned resuscitations, the return to the earthly life. In no place in the late Judaic literature does it concern a resurrection to doxa ['glory'] as an event of history.
In all instances given by the Gospels of persons raised from the dead by Jesus, and no less in the case of the widow Dorcas raised from the dead by Peter (Act 9: 36-42), a return to normal existence is stated or implied.
Name:Not Dattaswami •
Date: 05/23/07 3:47
A: .
Name:Panluna •
Date: 05/23/07 16:06
A: Hi Shlomo,
I had to take some time to think of an answer for your question since my views on Christianity has changed radically from the way I was raised with it.
Originally I had believed in the miraculous mostly because I was told that the ressurection was the leap of faith.I took it in without question--O the gulliability of youth! and the safety net it offered.And the Hope of eternal life in heaven.
As we grow we put away childish things and the veils get lifted.I started to question my faith.Could it be possible that Jesus had been drugged or had risen from a coma and then escaped to another country --Avolon--or India---perhaps ! After all there were sightings reported of Him there and even the native Americans called Him "The Great Whte Father"---- (unless I'm mistaken and they were referring to a priest).Even Padre Pio a humble monk in Italy was visited by Him when he was a young man and"blessed"him with the mark of the Stigmata---the five wounds Jesus had recieved on the cross as well as the gift of healing.I have seen the Virgin Mary three times in my life.
What ever hapened to the people Jesus healed,notably Lazarus who was dead for four days then brought back to life?Or the others--did they live normal lives?How about the people Padre Pio healed or the Miracles Of Lourdes?Why do they appear to us?Like to the three children last century in Fatima or random appearances to someone like me who is of no importance.
I know that scientific testing proved that Jesus never left Jerusalem nor did any of his family.After all their remains(bones) were found in ten limestone ossuaries in a tomb in Isreal that was marked with a mysterious symbol ,then reburied according to Jewish custom in a cemetary set aside for citizens of antiquty.Physicaly speaking he wasn't resusictated but spiritualy speaking they were ressurected.If I ever get to go to Isreal and I find their grave I will bring a plant called the Star of Bethlahem and place it on it in reverance to the most controversial death in history and it's influence on all of humanity.His words are his legacy and so is the truth science uncovered.
Name:betty47 •
Date: 05/24/07 3:01
A: Yes. Good comments. What do you make of the book "The Jesus Papers", Shlomo? They have similar thoughts.
Name:Shlomo •
Date: 05/24/07 5:05
A: The biggest problem with stories are their obvious embelishments that are added. There is no proof about Lazarus being deceased for four days, I have extreme reservations about that story. Logically, this runs into various factors of medical and rapid physical breakdown with the body within the first 12 hours of death.
Apparently you have either been blessed with seeing visions others can not or your mental awareness is such that it allows an all seeing eye as it were [ third eye? ]. Everybody's spirit upon death transforms into a form of a resurrection as this is the ability of the third soul to go back to its source - G_D. The physical body [ 1st soul ] then goes back to its source, the adamah [ earth-dust ].
Betty47,
I am not familiar with that book, there are so many out there, I will have to look into it and get back with you. But in mean the time, there are so many religious interpolations [ sayings, embellishments etc. ] in the NT that in order to understand what really went on is to push them aside and you will find the historical Jesus, this is usually in the first four books. But then again are these the true historical records? You have to investigate and find out. Without a true record all else is mute.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 05/24/07 17:16
A: Hi,Betty ,
I haven't read The Jesus Papers yet.I'm just getting ready to read THE JESUS DYNASTY byJ.Tabor and THE EXPECTED ONE byKathleen McGowen.I don't know when I will get my book reviews on Amazon.
Name:sam •
Date: 05/25/07 21:29
A: Shlomo ,
You are right, when you said:
The biggest problem with stories are their obvious EMBELLISHMENTS that are added .
But I would like to say, that we live now in a different age, the age where anything said or written can be analyzed by scientific measures or by logic. The three religions, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam came in time when the science was primitive and the logic hardly used.
The one day story can end to four days. Who is checking?, and the stars can fall on earth and Jesus will come on the clouds (that can be easily accepted by those who believe that the earth is flat, and the stars are small objects in the sky). Can we blame them for believing in what came to them from their trusted leaders, who suppose to know everything.
(This is the disciple who is testifying....we know that his testimony is true. -John-21:24, this IS the gospel of John, but what John said means that he wasn't a witness to the fact, but the stories told by A DISCIPLE WITH NO NAME .)
How can we blame those people?, while there are billions today believes in the same wrong stories as it is true.
Shlomo , you show us that Lazarus being deceased for four days then raised cannot be accepted, period . I have extreme reservations about that story. Logically, this runs into various factors of medical and rapid physical breakdown with the body within the first 12 hours of death , That is true, and I agree with you. But your RESERVATION might change if the time was ONE DAY or FEW HOURS, because that can be accepted medically, is that true?.
Did you ever sought that the miracle itself in this case might be at list true, but the embellishments the things that been created to make it more miraculous was the wrong thing?., it is the same when they said that Jesus took seven devils out of her (anyone saw the devils and count them ?), while only what Jesus did is healed a woman, no more or less.
You show us the wrongs in the NT, but in the same time you hide the truth, the truth that there are stories in the OT cannot be accepted scientifically or logically . Did you ever use the science while reading the OT ?.
The story of creation which tell us that the earth and life on it were created before the sun and the stars is completely wrong, not only from the scientific point but also from the logic point.
The stories in Genesis 5:24 Enoch walked with God ... 6:9 and Noah walked with God. . I don't think that the almighty God, the Creator walked with any man on this earth. Because Moses just heard the God voice and he fall down on his face, and his hair turned white, and He did not see God.
We do believe in Moses and the other prophets miracles while the miracles cannot be proven scientifically or accepted logically. We believe in them and without any doubt because we believe that they are the work of God. The source of the power to make miracles came from the one who created the world and created us from dust and water, and that is the biggest miracles of all, So the miracles of Moses and Jesus and the others were only example from God to prove His messages, “as putting His stamp on them”.
So, my friend, because some EMBELLISHMENTS came in the NT or OT, can we regard THE MIRACLES are totally false, and is that means that THE MESSENGERS are false. Can we do that?, because if we accepted that way of looking at what came in the holy books, then that by itself will lead us to one conclusion and that is THE MESSAGE is false. That is what bring people to deny the existence of GOD.
MESSAGE ...MESSENGERS ...MIRACLES. These are one unit that came from ONE SOURCE, and by falsify one is falsifying all, and that mean falsifying the source which IS GOD.
The Jews and the Muslims believe in ONE GOD , and their believe is strong, and some EMBELLISHMENTS that came in some stories will not make them change their believe and go looking around for another one with more embellishments, and which have many gods and full of myths, beyond any logic.
But those who believe in a God made of three persons, and they know the story about how this formula (trinity) came, plus seeing what is going on in some places of worshiping, and been taught many wrong things, which mostly came from others who created their own books and added their words and the personal letter as Paul to take over the teaching of the messenger of God, (Jesus gave His words and message, but He did not write the stories).
Those are the one who start looking for another place to worship, and believe me that they will never chose Judaism, because even after leaving Christianity they still believe that they are responcible for Jesus death, and this picture is printed in their heart by their teachers/leaders that they are responsible for what happen 2000 years ago, (where is the logic) and they will not accept Islam because they been told that Muhammad is a false prophet (as was Jesus in the eyes of the Jews, what a strange things) and they will ignore the Quran because they been told that is the writing of Muhammad, and came by evil!!!,and it is full of myths, can anyone where is the logic?..
The words of “Panluna”:
“ my views on Christianity has changed radically from the way I was raised with it.
Originally I had believed in the miraculous mostly because I was told that the resurrection was the leap of FAITH.I took it in without question--O the gulliability of youth! and the SAFETY NET it offered. And the Hope of eternal life in heaven.”
Christianity after Jesus is not a faith, it is a philosophy, and the churches created their own philosophy, and they call it Christianity. The real Christian are those who follow Jesus the Christ and His message only. So, when you change your view about Christianity because of what you see, do not change your view about Jesus. Jesus has nothing to do with what the others done, and His responsibility is only towards God and about the message that He been given to teach.
THAT IS THE FIRST STEP OUT. Thanks to Shlome and dattaswami, and those who put doubt in her heart. Now she is looking for another faith, in better word philosophy, and another SAFETY NET.
THE ONLY SAFETY NET IS TO BELIEVE IN THE ONE WHO CREATED US AND FOLLOW HIS COMMANDMENTS (to take care of ourselves and the others). That is the whole purpose of God messages to His people on His earth. Believe in Me first, Gad say’, then do what I told to do for you sake, and at the end you will be judged by ME. That is what been told by all the prophets.
Shlomo, you think that we can guess in which safety net she will end?. You think that the net which used by “dattaswami” is attractive?, let us read her words:
“He has enlightened me with his Hindu view point.”, and she did not check, if that net is safe.
The Hindu believes in incarnation, and their souls will pass through many lower form of life (rats, monkeys, etc) before became enlightened!!!, and they believe in many gods, and their philosophy full of myths that cannot be accepted by any logic (the SUN has two sons),(Yama and Sani are said to be born to the Sun), (Lord Siva is famous for destroying the world... Siva lives in burial ground)!!! Is that myths or what?.
Betty47, wrote :”The thoughts in religious texts are often very nice.”..“I would have to say there are thousands, if not millions, of Hindus in India who neglect the females in their lives, and sell them off or murder them without a second thought even today.”..”The fact that you (dattaswami) do shows you're trying to convert others”
There are many documentaries about India, The nice picture that their philosophy shows, it is different when you touch the ground.
God bless you.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 05/26/07 15:55
A: Hello Sam,
I'm open-minded in regards to religion and philosophies.My one regret in life is that when I graduated from high school in 1970 and attended college I dropped out after three semesters because I had no idea what I wanted to study and become----(proffression--Sp?).If had known that in my later years I would develope a very strong interest in cultural anthropology I would have continued with my education and probably would have a degree.Education is very important.It teaches facts and figures and life gives us experiences.When you combine the two you can make logical choices.I don't disbelieve in Jesus's teachings at all and I'm not down on the faithful of any religion.I'm curious about everything and the best way to learn about a religion and culture is to speak to the members and experiance with an open mind.
About twenty-three years I joined the New Age movement because it allowed me room to expand my knowledge.I have a certificate from an accredited study at home course for paranormal psychology as I have a natural born psychic ability.All I needed was some explanations for my gift so I could understand it and the right training so I could use it properly..I don't look for a safety net from something else outside of myself because I could never depend on it..My inner guide and my relation to the five elements are all I need.Any religion that cannot stand up to scrutiny is not worth following especially if there are reprisals after challenging it.
Name:sam •
Date: 05/27/07 2:33
A: Hello Panluna,
Thank you for your post with the information about youself, it open a window to know you better, that will make us much closer to each other and to understand each other.
This is a strange world!, on my part I had to leave school after finishing grade 9, I was chosen from 8 children (I am second in line) to look after the family department stores 1000km away from home, because they know that I am fit for that job (hard working), after a coup, and the king was killed, we been pushed out of that country, and back home after great losses.
The dificult situation let me go to Kuwait a 1000km away from home to work and to help my brothers and sisters finish theit schooling.
My eldest bother graduated from the American university, and followed me, and get his first job as [financial panning, budget analysing, and auditing- TEXACO], and I took his advice and support and went back to school to be in classroom with my other younger brothers and sister.
I did graduate from high school with excellent marks, and I recieve a scholarship to the univesiry for five years, and i graduete with honor degree, that was the same time with my youngest brother (7 years younger), the brother who at the end graduated from the Sorbone (Paris university) with a doctorate degree, and worked few years at the observatory of Paris.
After, I get married, and had a son, we moved all around the world, to Australia and then Canada. My education came to be great, but my life experiences and what I learn in my long and hard journey cannot be matched with any degree.
I did sucrifice few years but the result and seeing my brothers and sister recieve their highest education was my greatest rewards. My son understand what I went through, and that was the lesson for him to work hard to became a doctor and to help others, and he did really help.
Panluna, I am open minded too. At the medical school my son fell in love with a girl after two years working together (she is one friend among few others), I learn about it for the first time, by his phone call, and my heart filled with happiness, and his mother cannot wait to know what was going on, and she was very happy when i told her, and she took the other line, you know ,she want to know everything, then he told us that she is Irish and Catholic.
Our answer was, "we do not care, all what we care about is, if she is good person and love you too, because she will be your partner for life"
They been married for eleven year now, and with their 8 years old son, they are a very happy family. My son best friend Sanjai Abbas been together since they were ten, he is Hindu(nearly every day studying in our place), my son helped him to get to the medical school (he is behind 5 years, he got a degree in law, but my son helped him to get in medical school) and he graduated last year an married to a Jewish girl, they came to visit us in Toronto while my son was with us and we had a dinner together, Muslim, Christian and Jew, all on one table as one family, is there anything more wonderful than that?. My son an Sanjai they visit each other at list twice a year (my son in Boston and his friend in Hershy PA.), and at the end of this coming june they will be in my son home for five days, and we are planning to be with them to see them and their eight monts son.
My son worked three years as volunteer in the emergency room, at the Credit Valley hospital while he was in high school.
Panluna, we are on this earth, and under the sun, brothers and sisters in humanity, no matter what colour we are, or what language we speak, or what religion we follow. The logic tells us that we are people and we all came from the same tree, but that it does not mean that we have the same thinking, brothers and sisters under the same roof have different opinions, and differ in the way they analyze the same thing, but all that should not be a way to devide them as a family, because the family is built on love. So, we are as the human family, we should not let our dissagreement change our love to hate.
God bless you.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 05/27/07 15:11
A: Thank you Sam,
Beautiful messege! Great accomplishments!
Name:Ladyhawk •
Date: 05/27/07 16:36
A: Sam, what a wonderful post! And I agree completely with your conclusions--live and let live, and always seek to see common humanity in others. Sometimes people make that difficult for each other; your post (and Panluna's, too) goes a long way to better that situation. We should all know more about each other.
