a journalist from Romania asks :
" Is this a publicity stunt?
Does the Bible need to be re-written? "
Doctor Tabor answers something that can shed light
on Sam's and Indie's Coran-Bible exchange.
Doctor Tabor says :
" The Bible doesn't need to be rewritten.
The Bible needs to be read critically and historically.
But it is in every major seminary and Faculty of
Theology in the world.
Bible literalists are found in a few areas of the world.
Bible literalists take the Bible as dictated recordings.
But Bible scholars see these texts as real, historical
documents, that reveal a process . It is to our
advantage that these are real historical documents."
I'd like to talk, on this page, about what is the best way to discuss the differences between
- the process of writing that produced the Bible
- the process of writing that produced the Coran.
If I go to
http://medievalwriting.50megs.com/writing.htm
I learn about medieval writing tools, scribes.
The Talmud was finalized in the 600s CE.
I don't yet know all the circumstances under which the Coran was written. But I am willing to learn.
You may be too young to know of a movie called Yentl.
It's about the daughter of a Rabbi in Russia, who loses her father. She cuts her hair, pretends she is a man. She secretly enters Torah school to study the Scriptures.
When I began my studies in theology, I was in classes with guys who were studying to become priests.
I was in classrooms with 23 boys, and me.
That was in the 70s.
Things have changed.
What I want to say, is Doctor Tabor is right when he says that the Bible has been studies critically and historically for decades.
I say in an earlier post that Luther, in Germany, began modern text analysis. Doing critical, historical analysis is something that Christians in seminaries and faculties of theology have been doing for decades.
This is not new to us.
The point that Doctor Tabor makes, at minute 56 of the Discovery Press Conference, is that as students of history, we want the Bible as it is, with all its imperfections, its contradictions, is human touch.
Writing in English goes back to Chaucer.
The 1300s.
Writing in Arabic goes back to the 500s.
Should I be willing to study Arabic literature?
Absolutely.
But, on the pretext that the Coran was written in one sitting, by one individual, has never been edited, changed, and is " extra-historical " in nature,
no, I cannot drop everything I know about the history of writing, and assume that it is a
" dictated recording from God ".
Too many Bible literalists have proven to me that it is dangerous to see Scripture as
" dictated recordings from God".
Sam, you, and my Arab frien use text analysis to point out the imperfections of the Bible to try and steer me toward conversion to Islam.
I understand. You feel you have something precious to share. I do not fault you for that.
But, if I have one belief that is for sure, it is this :
God uses the imperfections of man to speak to his heart. When I study the Bible, I am witnessing the encounter of h u m a n b e i n g s with the Sacred.
I have been taught, that God lets men do the writing.
I have been taught, that God lets women do the writing.
I have been taught, that God speaks through humans.
A text that is purported to be a direct dictation is something I find difficult to imagine.
Bible literalists believe that.
I do not know enough about Coranic origines.
I do not know about the process of the creation of the Coran. I have heard that it was inspired.
But, my training tells me that a text, written in the early 600s CE, will need to be explained.
The historical context was what?
The political context was what?
I find that Muslims are quick to engage in exegisis of Bible text. I find that Muslims are not willing to explain much about the orignis of Islamic writings.
Is it possible for me to receive information on critical analysis of Islamic writings?
Does such a study exist ?
Do Muslims do analysis of their early writings?
I do not know this.
Will you answer my questions?
Indie
Name:sam •
Date: 01/12/08 23:39
A: Dear Indie,
Before few minute I finished my post answering some of your questions, and when I pressed the "Post", the computer freezes, So I have to turn it of. IT happen several times before.
I will try to write tomorrow .
You will be away from home the next few days, I wish happy time, and a safe return.
God bless you.
Name:sam •
Date: 01/13/08 20:02
A: Dear Indie,
You wrote: A- You may be too young to know of a movie called Yentl.
THANK YOU.
----- I was young, before 4 days ago, that is until when the wheel turn my age to big 70 on Jan.8-08 , WOW. And I do remember the film but not the name.
Note: ages ago I studied law, beside corses of statistics & the science of logic. I traveled all around the world, visiting 23 countries and living in 6 of them not including the U.S which I been in half of the states from cost to cost. My hobbies: reading (history & geography ), traveling, arts and few others.
I am an open minded, and I am free, and I do not follow the crowds, not in religion or politics. I do respect the others opinions, and I do accept only what is proven to be right by logic, common sense and science. I do believe that we , the people of this planet are brothers and sisters under the sun, and believe in love & peace.
B- Sam, you, and my Arab friend use text analysis to point out the imperfections of the Bible
___ You asked for analysis !, Do you feel better, if I and the other friends, skip the imperfections in the bible and bring only the perfect part of it?
---- Wrong, The truth is, there are always analysis to any book written, Holy or not holy, and any analysis should be done to the complete works and not chosen parts . As for the Bible and the Gospels, these books been analyzed mainly by the Christians, and they are the ones who talked about the imperfections, for ex: the bishop words “THE BIBLE FULL OF CONTRADICTIONS AND ERRORS..AND THE GOSPELS CANNOT BE TRUSTED TO BE RELIABLE”.
while the Muslims in general tried to keep themselves away from this subject, because they do not want to bring things which might create more hate and attack from the powerful Christians countries. They are always under attack, a non stop attack for 1400 years ( when you occupy country and make bases and bring your armies to the other lands, that is an attack if you know this fact), and when the pope BENEDICT stand in Germany in front of thousands of people and attack in words Muhammad an Islam is a clear proof to show ho is the aggressors.
C- ( YOU, and my Arab friends) to try and steer me toward conversion to Islam.
----- You always jump to your own conclusions, that is strange when it come from one whom I believed that he is an OLDER MAN than me!, and an educated person (theology).
I know that you are a priest (my total respect), And YOU give a proof to what the Bishop Spong mention in his books, when He said: “the churches try to defend the errors and the contradictions in the bible by using another words from the bible”, and you use the a discussion between you and your friends to come to a conclusion, that they are trying to covert you!!!. was the conversation more sort of general discussion, or was it you who try to convert them to Christianity?.
The fact # 1 Is here and it is from the Quran the Muslims holy book, and the word of God:
2:256 THERE SHALL BE NO COMPULSION IN ACCEPTANCE OF THE RELIGION.
There is no Muslim missionaries, but there are thousands of Christian missionaries all around the world. There is no Muslim going in the street and knocking on doors trying to bring people in , but you know the rest etc.
The fact # 2 And here is your biggest mistake!!!, And you are 100% WRONG. WHY? , first, because you do not know me, and you jumped to the conclusion!. Second, If you read My other posts in this forums , then you will know me and know my thinking and you will know about my family and many other things.
My only son been married for twelve years (both are doctor). His wife (our daughter ....that is what she is to us...and we loved her) SHE IS A CHRISTIAN, CATHOLIC her father IRISH and her mother CHECK and they are very good people and we are now a one big happy family.
We never asked her to change her beliefs, and we did not teach her , because we have not much knowledge about the Islam in the first place!!!. My son he does not know any verse from the Quran, and he never been to a mosque etc.
It was a surprise to my son when she told him that she want to fast in the month of RAMADAN
and it was more surprise to us when he calls us asking few question that kelly wants to know about certain thing for woman in fasting, and when I asked , why, and how comes, he told me that she been reading the Quran and searching about the Islam in the net. This year 2007 She fasted again, and she call me to ask me about the four days that she cannot fast because her conference, I did find out that she can fast those day in any time of the year or give to the poor.
Here again a verse from the Quran:
29:46 And do not argue with the people of the Scripture except in a way THAT IS BEST, except for those who commit injustice among them, and say , “We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you. And OUR GOD AND YOUR GOD IS ONE; and we are Muslims [in submission] to HIM.”
Adam,..... Abraham, Moses and Jesus , they all believed in God and prayed to him, and they all believe that there is only one God:
YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER gods BEFORE ME.....THE ONE AND ONLY GOD...HEAR O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD.....HE (JESUS) SPENT THE WHOLE NIGHT IN PRAYER TO GOD.
And Jesus said: Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men. He was also saying to them, “YOU ARE EXPERTS AT SETTING ASIDE THE COMMANDMENT OD GOD IN ORDER TO KEEP YOUR TRADITION.
{ JESUS WORD CAME FROM GOD AND IT IS THE WHOLE TRUTH.}
The answer to your other qustions will come in my next post.
God bless you.
Name:sam •
Date: 01/14/08 0:18
A: Hi Indie,
You been taught by the church :
I have been taught, that God lets men do the writing.
I have been taught, that God lets women do the writing.
I have been taught, that God speaks through humans.
The churches creates a lot of things after the death of Jesus, while Jesus teaching is very simple to understand and his words came from God and so the other prophets.
Most of what you been taught came from Paul's teaching, ( the four gospels 169 pages...the personal letters of Paul & the others 204 pages, So, if you take out the repeated stories in the gospels then you are left of less than half of the pages and if you take the words of the others then you left with a very small amount of pages, But this small amount that came from Jesus Has more weight than the weight of the earth and has more than everything on it including us. You should know that if you belive in Jesus.
The catholic popes who claims that they are the holiest men on earth (even some are crooks- if you want I will bring yoy their history from a christian writers) and they claim that their words are from God, and so the anglican bishops and so the mormon priest, all wated to control their people by the word of God, and we should not forget Jimmy Swagart, and the many others ,countless leaders of the many other names of churches, all they claim the same (did you ever watched them on TV with their crazy supporters - 6 0f them are under investigation by the senate in the states, and they callected millions of $$$$$$, and they own many mansions and villas and RR... firrary cars and even a private Jet, the last one I saw on CNN, he lives in a million dollar home and has servant and a cook with white cloves!!!! WOW that is a big buisiness.
God is not like man to walk with Abraham, and if we accept that any one can claim that he/she talked to God or God talked to him/her, then, there is no need for HIM [GOD] to send so many prophets.
Do you think that if we believe in the words of everyone claims that ,"that God speaks through humans". we are going to face a big problem, because any one can claim that (no control), and how do we tell who is telling the truth. Is what you been taught make Jesus no differen from the pope or Jimmy , Jesus gets His word from God ans so the pope and Jimmy. !!!.
Tell you the truth, what the christians creates are against Jesus and His word and His teaching (look at the big picture), any one from outside the church can see that the one who call themselve christians are not the followers of Jesus, but the followers of Paul and the one who came after him in Rome. I will bring you my analysis of Paul, that is if you did not read them in my previou posts.
My answer to the other question will be next.
God bless you.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/14/08 15:16
A: Hello Friends,
This page is an invitation.
The invitation is based on the following :
- insofar as the
f i l m on the Lost Tomb of Jesus,
w e b s i t e on the Lost Tomb of Jesus,
v i d e o c l i p s on the Lost Tomb of Jesus,
p r e s s c o n f e r e n c e of Discovery Channel on
the Lost Tomb of Jesus
are a l l examples on individuals who s t a n d outside of the Dogma of their respective familial traditions,
I extend the following invitation :
- share with me a tid bit of knowledge which the history of religion
has revealled to you;
- may this sharing be in the same vein and spirit given in example by Mr. Jacobovici;
- may this sharing be that of people of good will, capable of standing outside the traps of denominational mind sets.
I give three examples of such sharing :
- some of the commandments found in the Old Testament ,
those based on s o c i a l law
(such as 'Do not steal' or 'Do not give false witness' ...)
have their literary origin in Bagdad and can still today be seen,
on stone tablets that date from 600 years before the time of Moses.
- the custom in Celtic countries (Ireland, Scotland) where the tradition
of the " Easter Rabbit " may have began, we find that a divinity
pre-dating Christianity by thousands of years, was called Estre,
her symbol was the hare (rabbit), a creature that shared the same
fields with the lapwing bird, a bird that nests in holes in the ground,
who lays eggs having the same colouring as baby hares, thus
the culture specific spring traditon of bunnies that lay eggs.
- here is a Sufi teaching :
" Past the seeker as he prayed
came the crippled and the beggar
and the beaten. And seeing them...
he cried, 'Great God, how is it
that a loving creator can see such things
and yet do nothing about them?'...
God said, 'I did do something.
I made you."
I find this Sufi teaching is like the command to do unto others as
one would have them do onto one's self.
These are my three examples of ancient text given in the spirit of one who stands outside of d o g m a t i c rhetoric.
I invite those who know of ancient literature, who stand outside of
denominational dogmatic mind sets, to share a verse or story
or historical fact that does not accuse.
I am not a priest.
I am not a man.
I have a simple degree in theology as a result from studies in the 1970s, in a Catholic university in Canada. I was the only girl in my classes in those days. I was the only person taking courses who was not preparing to be a priest. I was the only person interested in understanding the history of religion. I grew up in France, near a Canadian military base, I frequented secular schools.
In 1962, the directrice of my primary school, told the teacher in the class next to mine, to take her cross off the chain around her neck.
I was 7 years old when I witnessed that teacher tell my teacher about the incident. I saw that teacher pull from under her sweater, the chain, to reveal the gold cross. It was 1962. I grew up in a secural country.
Though my family is from the Canadian Catholic tradition, my interest in religion is historical. I have always wanted to understand the culture and the religion of others.
I find fascinating Mr. Jacobovici's documentary, about his search to understand the unique information that bone boxes can yeild.
I once read that the Muslim Prophet, when he united the tribal religions of Saudi Arabia, that he felt a strong responsibility to establis a strong social law that protected widows and orphan, due in part to the fact that he himself was an orphan.
These examples of sharing, in the spirit of standing outside the rhetoric of denominational docmatic institutions, are examples of the kind of sharing I am interested in.
I represent no institution.
I represent no oil company.
I represent no pope.
I represent no imam.
I represent no synagogue.
I represent the Wisdom of human beings who have lived inside the culture of others;
I represent the Wisdom of human beings who know that denominations and dogma need to be stood apart from;
I represent the Wisdom of human beings who leave aside beligerent sectarian rhetoric and are curious about the life affirming aspects of religious traditions of others.
Indie Anna in Quebec Canada
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/14/08 16:06
A: Antoine Sfeir.
A thinker I respect is Antoine Sfeir.
He is the author of Les Cahier de l'Orient.
He writes for Le Figaro, in Paris.
He has given his take on the Ben XVI remarks.
For those interested and who can read French,
I invite you to Google this impressive thinker.
Indie
Name:sam •
Date: 01/14/08 22:24
A: Hello Indie,
You did not answer my posts!!!, that is because what I brought is right, but I am going to answer the rest of your questios.
before that let me bring few line from the books of the former catholic NUN Mary Ann Collins ( You can read the books on her site).
ABOUT THE AUTHOR: Mary Ann Collins entered the convent because she wanted to be close to God. She gradually realized that some Catholic doctrines are contrary to Scripture. She left the convent and became a Protestant Christian, and she finally found the relationship with God that she had been seeking all along.
Unmasking Catholicism reveals what is hiding behind Rome’s modern, ecumenical mask. It presents complex subjects in a clear, straightforward manner that is easy to understand. It confronts troubling issues with compassion and objectivity.
This book is thoroughly documented. In addition to source books, it gives references to hundreds of Internet articles and pictures. You can check them out for yourself and draw your own conclusions.
Come explore the world of Catholicism, where grace can be “merited,” and people atone for their sins by doing penances. We will travel through history and meet some fascinating people (both good and bad). And we will look at some official Catholic documents that show a surprising side of the Catholic Church.
In pronouncing the anathema, the Pope wears special vestments. He is assisted by twelve priests who hold lighted candles. Calling on the name of God, the Pope pronounces a solemn, ecclesiastical curse. He ends by pronouncing sentence and declaring that the anathematized person is condemned to Hell with Satan. The priests reply: "Fiat!" (Let it be done!) and throw down their candles.
As we will see, the Catholic Church considers heresy (disagreement with Catholic doctrine) to be a crime. The Council of Trent declared that any person who disagrees with even one of its doctrinal statements is thereby automatically anathematized.
In 1014, Pope Leo IX excommunicated the entire Orthodox Church. This means that, according to Catholic theology, every single Orthodox priest, nun, layman, and laywoman was damned to Hell unless he or she repented and submitted to the Catholic Pope. "Infallible" popes and "infallible" Catholic Church councils have declared that there is no salvation apart from the Roman Catholic Church
In 1965, Pope Paul VI removed that excommunication. I'm grateful that he removed it. However, that does not change the fact that, for 951 years, every single Orthodox Christian lived and died under that curse.
So in effect, popes were willing to send people to Hell, in order to get political power over secular rulers. Whether or not they actually had the power to send people to Hell is beside the point. They thought that they had the power, and they were willing to use it.
Pope Boniface VIII reigned from 1294 to 1303. On November 18, 1302, he issued the papal bull, Unam Sanctam, in which he declared that the Pope has both spiritual and worldly power. Boniface declared that there is no salvation apart from submission to the Pope.
The Catholic Church categorizes sins as either mortal sins (the most serious kind) or venial sins (which are considered to be less serious).15 According to Catholic doctrine, if a person dies in a state of mortal sin, then he or she is damned to Hell.16 In order for a mortal sin to be forgiven, a Catholic must go to confession and receive absolution from a priest.17 However, if Catholics are under interdict, then they are not allowed to receive the sacraments, and therefore they cannot receive absolution for their sins
The Roman Catholic Church claims that the early Christians were all Roman Catholics and that (aside from the Orthodox Church) all Christians were Roman Catholics until the Protestant Reformation. It also claims that the Apostle Peter was the first Pope, ruling from Rome.
But do these claims stand up to the test of history? Or are they false credentials?
There is historical evidence that the Roman Catholic Church began with Emperor Constantine. Many Protestants believe that, throughout Church history, there have been many true Christians who were not Catholics, and these Christians were often killed by the Catholic Church. They also believe that Peter was just one of the apostles.
You can read all her books. "Unmasking Catholicism", "The Catholic Undertow", "Another Side of Catholicism", "Catholicism Unveiled"
She is a Christian. She was a catholic, and did her study in Rome and in the Vatican, and she knows what is she talking about.
Popes and Power
Chapter 1. A Surprising Discovery
Chapter 2. Ecclesiastical Curses
Chapter 3. The Council of Trent
Chapter 4. Ecumenism
Chapter 5. Hiding Behind Words
Chapter 6. Spiritual Coercion
Chapter 7. Hunting "Heretics"
Chapter 8. Was the Early Church Roman Catholic?
Chapter 9. Forged Documents and Papal Power
Chapter 10. The Popes
Chapter 11. Imperial Popes
Chapter 12. Undermining the Bible
Doctrine and Credentials
Chapter 13. New Age Catholicism
Chapter 14. False Credentials
Chapter 15. According to Tradition
Chapter 16. What Is Our Source of Authority?
Chapter 17. Faith Versus Works
Chapter 18. The Good Thief
Chapter 19. The Numbers Game
Chapter 20. Devotion to Mary
Chapter 21. What Is Idolatry?
Practical Problems
Chapter 22. Mandatory Celibacy
Chapter 23. Mind Control
Chapter 24. Serving Two Masters
Chapter 25. Canon Law vs. Religious Freedom
Chapter 26. The Presence of God
Chapter 27. Catholic Mysticism
Spirit of Catholicism
Chapter 28. Mixing Paganism with Christianity
Here some more truth about the churches:
Using the Spanish Inquisition to Attack Jews
In their search for incriminating evidence against the Jews, the authors even enlist the support of the Spanish Inquisition. "More than once, Jews were accused not just of being Jews but for slave dealing and sometimes for that alone. The Inquisitors charged subjects for either crime and frequently Jews were found guilty on both counts. Slave dealing and slavery and its connection with Judaism and Jews was offensive to the Spanish reformers." The Spanish Inquisition brought about "a reign of terror throughout Europe" which was responsible for the impoverishment, exile, and death of countless Jews, Muslims, and "heretical" Christians.
That spain under the rule of christians and her is Spain under the rules of Muslims:
Under Islam, Christians and Jews were recognised as "peoples of the book", and were free to practice their religion.
Muslim rulers introduced new crops and efficient irrigation systems, trading and commerce thrived, and mathematics, medicine, and philosophy flourished.
can you see the difference?
God bless you.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/15/08 0:00
A: Sir,
I do not know how to tell you this.
I am a cultural catholic. I am not affiliated with the institution.
I took my courses with Catholic exegetes, as they were the only scholars available at the time.
I choose to stand outside of denominational secterianism.
I choose to invite my fellow human beings to ignore institution church, mosque, synagogue, teepee, long house, tree house and dog house.
You have made clear that you were raised catholic and converted to Islam, and that out of feelings of betrayal you have a visceral need to disect institutional, denominational christendom.
As a fellow human being, I can only tell you I am sorry for your pain.
I feel you give to much credit to the institutions.
I feel you give them too much power in your mind.
Quebec, Canada, was, in 1950, a society without a true middle class.
One man, René Levesque, rose up, nationalized companies previously owned by people outside of Quebec, and his government used the money to create colleges (cegeps) and universities.
Here we are, 60 years later, with just such a middle class, and a healthy, democracy.
That man was able to do what he did, because despite the Catholic Church's faults here in Quebec, it contributed in a major way to creating a people with kind hearts, honest souls, human beings who thirst for justice.
Despite the imperfect Catholic church, a magnificient society immerged.
You seem to have a need to slam a l l Christian churches.
I live in a society
whose people have matured,
whose people have come full circle,
whose people, like a teenager become adult and able to love its
parent despite that parent's imperfections,
it has come to see how much the religion of this land did to help build the democracy we enjoy today.
You claim that I did not answer your question out of some kind of avoidance.
Perhaps.
Is my avoidance due to
- a secret belief you are right in all matters and inability to admit so?
- an impression that you cannot separate institution from the poor, common man and woman ?
- my stated desire to have an exchange that lies outside of sectarian dogmatism?
I let you decide.
When you criticise one religious institution after, do you stop to think about what hurt you may be inflicting on the powerless who have grown up inside such institutions?
I suggest, I think rightly, that maybe time has come for the common mand and woman to stand up and say
" I reject dogma. I choose to respect my fellow human being."
I do not see the point in mankind continuing to flog the dead horses of dogmatic sectarianism.
I have healed. I have moved on.
I pray one day you may also do as much.
No religious institution on earth is perfect.
Not a one.
The sooner we all admit that, the sooner we all humble ourselves and
allow the light of historical and literary analysis to shine on the writings of all of our faiths, the better off we all will be.
I'd prefer to talk about
- population control
- the environment
- saving children from sickness and poverty
- finding real alternatives to oil
- improving the rights of women
I find it more constructive to graduate from dogma, and talk about ways to get control of our population growth (and non-growth), and manage the ressources of the planet in a way more in keeping with sustaining
dignified living for all.
All it takes is for the common man and the common woman to stand up and declare they are leaving sectarian dogmatism for the history books.
If you want to keep on harping on which church did what to whom,
that is your right, I suppose.
But for once and for all, know this :
I refuse to submit to your interrogation not because of any ill intent.
I refuse to submit to your interrogation because I think your points are moot.
I truly believe that as a human race we have more pressing points to discuss.
May Godde heal your hurt soul.
Indie.
Name:sam •
Date: 01/15/08 0:12
A: Dear Indie,
About your question "Do Muslims do analysis of their early writings?"
A- Yes.
While no one knows for sure who whrotes the Bible, and there are many gospels, most of them been burned and so the people who aquired them, and the four which left are written after long time from the death of Jesus and those who did the writing never saw Jesus or heard his voice.
The Quran, the holy book, was written from the first day that when the angel Gabriel brought the firt words (message) to the prophet , and the messages continued until the last day of the prophet life. every word was recorded in the same day by His Apostles.
Mohammad could not read or write, but at the end he recited all the Quran in front of his Apostles. From that day unlil this moment not even one word or one letter is changed. The Quran contains more than 900 pages, and memorized by the majorities of moslims around the world from China to Canada, and even by the very young children.
The Quran is the only holy book. The words of Muhammad were kept seperate in books called "Hadith" and this is not a holy book. There are thousands of Hadith and some were attributed to Him wrongly with wrong messages, and those done by those who apposed him, and were mainly christians and Jews, and the Muslims call those false Hadith "THE ISRAELIAT",The prophet Himself worned people about them, and asked his followers to follow only the Quran.
The holy books & the woed of God.
A holy book suppose to be the real word of God, and the word of God suppose to be holding all the truth {no contradictions or errors},and present true knowledge, knowledge that the people at the time of the messsage knows nothing about .
As we know , the people on earth from the time of Adam to the time of Muhammad believed that the earth is flat and does not move, and it is the centre of the whole world.
Even Jesus whom the churches claim that He is God, or part of God did not know better than what Moses knows otherwise He told the truth about it and not leave people with wron knowledge, and the Bible, in Genesis, say that the creation of the earth came before the creation of the son & the stars, and there was life on earth even before the creation of the son!!! {wrong knowledge, and Jesus as a Jew He read the Bible.
Here what came in the Quran from scientific informations:
Q- 41:53 We will show them our signs in the horizons and within themselves until it becomes clear to them that it is the truth. (He is the truth). But is it not sufficient concerning your LORD that he is, over all things, a witness.
38:88 And you will surely know the truth of its information AFTER TIME.
{ THAT MEANS, THOSE INFORMATION WHICH CAME IN THE QURAN WILL BE KNOWN TO MAN IN LATER TIME, so let us see what information came in this book and see if it came to be true and known to all}
Q-21:30 Have those who disbelieved not considered that THE HEAVEN AND EARTH WERE A JOINED ENTITY, AND WE SEPARATED THEM, and made from water every living things, then will they not believe?.
-Is that the BIG BANG theory?.
Q-51:47 And THE HEAVEN we constructed with strength, and indeed, WE ARE (ITS) EXPANDER.
-Is that the EXPANDING UNIVERSE theory?.
Q-21:33 And it is HE who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all heavenly bodies, in an orbit are swimming.
-Every object in the universe is moving (our earth is one of them), the moon orbiting the earth, and both orbiting the sun, and all of them orbiting our galaxy, and our galaxy orbiting what?, GOD knows.
Q-13:41 Have they not seen that we set upon THE EARTH REDUCING IT FROM IT IS BORDER?.
-The earth diameter on the equator is 12756 km. And its diameter in the poles is less by few hundreds of kilometer.
Q-27:88 And you see THE MOUNTAINS, thinking them RIGID (STATIONARY), while they are passing as passing of clouds.
-The earth rotation around its axis is 1666 km/hr, but we do not feel it, and the mountains seems to be standing still, and only in the late centuries the scientist discover those facts about the moving earth.
Q-70:4 The angels and the spirit will ascend to him during a day the extent of which is fifty thousand years.
- All what the people know at time is a year of 365 days. but they do not know in God universe the time is different. Now we know that our galaxy year is 100 thousand years ( that is when the galaxy make one turn around its center.
Q-21:32 And we made the sky a PROTECTED CEILING, but they, from its signs
are turning away.
- Is that the OZONE, which protect us from the deadly radiation of our sun?, and now peoples and government are trying to find a solution to fix the damage been done by us the human. So, do not destroy the earth after been made perfect, that is what we have been told before many centuries from it is happening.
Q-7:56 And CAUSE NOT CORRUPTION upon the earth after its reformation.
Q-40:57 The creation of the heavens and earth is greater than the creation of mankind, but most of the peoples do not know.
Q-30:19 He brings the living out of the dead and brings the dead out of the living And brings to life the earth after its lifelessness. And thus will you will Brought out.
Q-75:1 I swear by the day of resurrection,
2 and I swear by the reproaching soul, to the certainly of resurrection,
3 Does man think that we will not assemble his bones?, yes we are able (even) TO PUT BACK TOGETHER HIS FINGERTIPS.
- Today, many peoples has the experience of what we call it - FINGERS PRINT - and the authorities all around the world practice this method in proven the identity of a person, because it is easy to find a person among millions just by his fingertips?, (even today there are many other methods), but that was just one small example after many bigger examples, and many examples.
And my question now is, when man did discover the fingers print things?. I don’t think it was from very long time.
Q-50:16 And we have already created man and know what his soul whispers to him, and we are closer to him than his jugular vein.
There are much more .
If You know any scientific thing in the Bible or the gospels I will apreciate if you bring some in your next post.
God bless you.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/15/08 0:30
A: In the DVD The Lost Tomb of Jesus,
Doctor Tabor speaks of the groups that pre-exist the Roman Church :
Doctor Tabor speaks of the Nazareens.
Doctor Tabor speaks of the Jesus Movement.
I pray that more information about the primitive movement will undo the hurt that some have experienced inside later institutional church.
May we also, as a race, come to grips with how institutions have impacted our lives.
The truth of the matter is that in many cases, a lot of churches have done the best they could. Some had corrupt men in positions of power.
May this web site continue to be a place where a new community may immerge.
Indie.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/15/08 1:30
A: Hi Sam,
I am about to retire for the day.
My dim recollections from my courses on the Middle Ages is telling me that the world of Islam must have had much more knowledge, science and other wise. Only 200 years later did Charlemagne create his universities, thanks in no small measure to the infusion of knowledge into Europe from the south of Spain and Muslim society there.
I shall try to read your posts on Tuesday or Wednesday.
Good evening to you.
Indie
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/15/08 11:48
A: Hi Sam,
Thank you for your sharing about the seeming awareness in Coranic text of many scientific principles .
The level of cosmology in the Coran is more advanced.
You are right.
Jesus was a man of his time.
About 500 hundred years separate Jesus from Mohammed.
As one who has sat in the Sinai desert, and seen,
because of the low humidity and lack of clouds,
the omnipresence of the constellations above,
I have no trouble at all grasping that knowledge about the universe came from people who could so clearly see the heavens with the naked eye.
If we travel back f u r t h e r in time, before the time of Jesus,
the writings we have are from the Greeks.
Greek cosmology was even stranger than that of Jesus' time.
Ancient Greeks had one cosmology.
Ancient Romans and Hebrews has one cosmology.
Ancient Muslims had one cosmology.
Voila. Textual historicity. My point exactly.
The ancient literature of each of these groups reflect
the knowledge of the time their culture existed and flourished.
My Muslim friend also say that the description of the science behind human conception is more advanced in Islamic writings as well.
Whereas Augustine was busy describing that the souls of girls enter the womb of their mother a 100 days after conception, and the sould of boys enter the womb of their mother 40 days after conception, and that only the " contribution " from the man created a baby,
on the other hand, Islamic medical culture described in more accurate detail the mechanics of conception.
The ' truthes ' of the New Testament,
the miracle of the New Testament, perhaps,
is that despite what may have been herculian effort on the part of the powers at be to
control,
'manage' ,
make their own,
the incredible sayings of Jesus,
despite the political distortions,
despite the erradication of the dignity of Mary of Magda
(and haven't women been getting reduced in the same way
by patriarchy for eons..., what else is new)
despite the construction of political and religious structures that
claim to be the legitimate wards of Jesus' message,
despite a l l that, Jesus' Word lives.
I smile at the moment at the recollection of my visit to the Churh of the Holy Sepulchre :
I gave a few coins to one Chuch to visit where the feet of the entombed would have laid;
I gave a few coins to another Church to visit, four feet over, where the head of the entombed would have been laid.
There is a cement wall down the blasted middle of the tomb!
One denomination 'owns' half.
One denomination 'owns' the other.
I pray to Godde they never make Talpiot into a shrine.
I'm with the Orthodox Jews on this one.
Simcha is wrong on this point.
Let the scientists have at the tomb, to find what they can.
Then, please Godde, let them roll the stone back, let them slide the cement slab back over it.
Let it go back to being just one more covered over tomb in Jerusalem.
Indie
Name:sam •
Date: 01/15/08 20:31
A: Bonjour mon ami Indie,
Your conclusion About what came in the Quran, which I presented in my last post, Here:
"About 500 hundred years separate Jesus from Mohammed.
As one who has sat in the Sinai desert, and seen,
because of the low humidity and lack of clouds,
the omnipresence of the constellations above, "
{SET IN THE SINAI DESERT AND SEEN.....} !!!
You always Alalyze thing using what you been taught in the catholic university, without knowing the history, or using the facts and the logic.
"SAT IN THE DESERT OF SIANI", Moses spent 40 years in Sinai, and so Jesus traveled in that desert, but Muhammad lived all His life in the desert of the Arabian penensula.
Then you said:
"Ancient Greeks had one cosmology.
Ancient Romans and Hebrews has one cosmology.
Ancient Muslims had one cosmology."
------ The ancient, the Greeks, the Romans and the the Hebrews cosmoligst are the scientist of their time, they can read and write, and they are very WELL EDUCATED , and they are from the higher class of their people, and they are very rich, and they can afford the luxuries of spending time doing READING thinking and researh, and each of them read the others previous works and try to advance in them , etc.
BUT, since MUHAMMAD COULD NOT READ OR WRITE, and He was born poor, and orphan (He lost both parents beffore the age of seven), and worked very early as a shepard, and He never knew what the Greek and the Romans and the Jews wrote about the subject of cosmology, AND He believe in what Abraham, and Moses, and Jesus believed in, the the earth is flat, and all they do not know much about the stars, and they do believe in them as no more than small object of light in the sky, all that PROVES that what came in the Quran is not His knowledge, but the knowledge of the one who created the earth and everything else.
---------- The following are written in the history of Galileo:
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
Field Astronomy, Physics and Mathematics
Institutions University of Padua
Alma mater University of Pisa
Known for Kinematics
Telescope
Solar System
Religious stance Roman Catholic
His achievements include the first systematic studies of uniformly accelerated motion, improvements to the telescope and consequent astronomical observations, and support for Copernicanism. Galileo's empirical work was a significant break from the abstract Aristotelian {THE GREEKS} approach of his time.
A planet with smaller planets orbiting it was problematic for the orderly, comprehensive picture of the geocentric model of the universe, in which .everything was supposed to circle around the Earth {EVERYTHING WAS SUPPOSED TO CIRCLE AROUND THE EARTH}. As a consequence, many astronomers and philosophers initially refused to believe that Galileo could have discovered such a thing,
Galileo's championing of Copernicanism was controversial within his lifetime. The geocentric view had been dominant since the time of Aristotle, and the controversy engendered by Galileo's opposition to this view resulted in the Catholic Church's prohibiting the advocacy of heliocentrism as potentially factual, because that theory had no decisive proof and was contrary to the literal meaning of Scripture.Galileo was eventually forced to recant his heliocentrism and spent the last years of his life under house arrest on orders of the Inquisition.
---------
Befor the time of Galileo, and that is about one thousand years from the time of Muhammad, No onw know that the earth and every other object in the sky moves in orbit, Not Jesus and Not Muhammad.
Galileo used the telescope and mathematics and spent years of observation to come to this conclusion:
"A planet with smaller planets orbiting it was problematic for the orderly, comprehensive picture of the geocentric model of the universe, in which everything was supposed to circle around the Earth {EVERYTHING WAS SUPPOSED TO CIRCLE AROUD THE EARTH!!!!} . As a consequence, many astronomers and philosophers initially refused to believe that Galileo could have discovered such a thing."
First we understand from that , that no one believe that he is right.
Second, He was advanced in his time, even what he discovered was not right, because the truth came after many centuries using a better instuments to prove that EVERYTHING IN CLUDING THE EARTH ARE MOVING AROUND THE SUN, then and years after, and with the advance of sciences, they discover that THERE ARE NOT ONLY ONE SUN BUT BILLIONS OTHERS, THEN AFTER YEARS THEY FOUND THAT OUR SUN IN OUR GALAXY, AND THERE ARE BILLIONS OF GALAXIES IN OUR UNIVERSE, AND THEY DISCOVER THAT ALL OF THEM CAME FROM ONE ORIGIN.
{Q- THE HEAVEN AND EARTH WERE A JOINED ENTITY, AND WE SEPARATED THEM}
And after thanks to Mr. Hubble and his great work, when he discovered that ALL GALAXIES ARE MOVING AND EXPANDING:
{Q- : And THE HEAVEN .....WE ARE (ITS) EXPANDER.}
Einstein admitted his mistake in 1929 when Edwin Hubble showed that distant galaxies were, indeed, receding from the earth, and the further away they were,the faster they were moving. That discovery changed cosmology.
Even Einstein ADMITTED HIS MISTAKE. EINSTEIN IS ONE OF THE GREATEST SCIENTIST OF THE 20TH CENTURY. Admitting that he was wrong does not change this fact, but on the contrary, that show he is a hones scientist, and reaspect the science achievements no matter from where or whom it comes.
That is far from what I see from the people of the churches. who try to falsify anything writeen in the Quran by all methods even by switching the truth or even lying.
" FLAUGEL", the GERMAN who specialized in eastern studies, he became interested in what came in the Quran, and he learned the Arabic languge, and after He wrote a book (781 pages) the first arabic dictionary listed every word, and how many times was repeated and in which chapter and verse.
This book in front of me, and from it I found a lot of very interesting thing, and here what I wrote in my notes few years ago, and whrote it as an answer to my friend Joe Trusty in the NG forums (you can check that):
Now, let us go to the holly book and see what other great miracles holds in it . The QUR’AN contains 114 (surah) chapters, and total verses of 6348, and a total words of 77878 .
The word DAY repeated 365 times.
The word MOON repeated 27 times.
The word LAND repeated 13 times, and the word SEA repeated 33 times.
And both totaling 46 times,
and since we know now that the land is only 29% of the surface of the earth,
So, 13/46 = 28.3%
And since we know too, that the water surface on the earth is 71%,
So, 33/46 = 71.7
I think when you add all up, sure you will find that is exactly right. And it is not a matter of guess.
---- before 1400 years threre was no computer not even adding machine.
-And it is like miracle, or it is a miracle indeed, when it was mentioned in the
QUR’AN in the surah (chapter) Al QADR (97:1-5), the night of Al-Qadr, witch is
the night of the coming of the QUR’AN ,and it is the 27 night in the month of
RAMADAN the month of the fastening for Muslims, and the word (AL-QADR) it
did come in the place were it was mentioned by (she), after a twenty six word, to be the word number (27).
We might say it came by chance. That is fine, but what we say if such a thing
happen before in a larger number of words .
In the surah (chapter) Al-Kahf (18:9-25).
Q-18:9 Or you have thought that the companions of the cave.........
Q-18:25 and they remained in their “CAVE” for three hundred years and exceeded by nine,
that is (309 years).
The word CAVE in the Arabic writing was the word number (308) followed by the words three hundred and nine on the spot (309) .
There are many more examples like those but let us go to a different kind of miracles.
Let us look at the Surah number (98), witch translate to (THE CLEAR
EVIDENCE). It contains (98) words, and after that surah ( chapter), there are
exactly (98) verses to the end of the QUR’AN .
The word EVIDENCE came twice:
In verse # 1 witch contains (55) letters, and,
In verse # 2 witch contains (43) letters, with a totals of (98) letters.
In the surah (chapter) number (38) witch has the letter “SAD” (one letter in arabic
equal to “S” in Latin) as its heading, which is the number 14 in the arabic language, from the 28 of the total letters, and the heading for that surah is just one letter, witch by itself has no meaning. Except, what comes after it give a lot of truth.
Q-38:1 “SAD”, and the QUR’AN containing reminders.....
87 It is but a reminder to the worlds.
88 AND YOU WILL SURELY KNEW ABOUT IT AFTER TIME.
- Of course, all these finding came to be known after time. Can anyone think that all what the Qur’an came with is a matter of guess?.
And thanks to FLAUGEL, the German scientist who open the door for more findings, and thanks to these scientist who spoke the truth abour the Quran:
Dr. T. V. N. Persaud is Professor of Anatomy, Professor of Pediatrics and Child Health, and Professor of Obstetrics, Gynecology, and Reproductive Sciences at the University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada.
When he was asked about the scientific miracles in the Quran which he has researched, he stated the following:
“The way it was explained to me is that Muhammad was a very ordinary man. He could not read, didn’t know [how] to write. In fact, he was an illiterate. And we’re talking about twelve [actually about fourteen] hundred years ago. You have someone illiterate making profound pronouncements and statements and that are amazingly accurate about scientific nature. And I personally can’t see how this could be a mere chance. There are too many accuracies and, like Dr. Moore, I have no difficulty in my mind that this is a divine inspiration or revelation which led him to these statements.
Professor Persaud has included some Quranic verses and sayings of the Prophet Muhammad in some of his books. He has also presented these verses and sayings of the Prophet Muhammad at several conferences.
Professor Tejatat Tejasen is the Chairman of the Department of Anatomy at Chiang Mai University, Chiang Mai, Thailand. Previously, he was the Dean of the Faculty of Medicine at the same university.
“During the last three years, I became interested in the Quran . . . . From my study , I believe that everything that has been recorded in the Quran fourteen hundred years ago must be the truth, that can be proved by the scientific means. Since the Prophet Muhammad could neither read nor write, Muhammad must be a messenger who relayed this truth, which was revealed to him as an enlightenment by the one who is eligible [as the] creator. This creator must be God. "
There are many others, you can read their work, and watch them on the vidio by going to the "scientific quran" site.
Those are the scientist who studied sciences, and they differ in opinion from those who studied theology , and read the bible and the work of Paul and the churches. they use logics and accept the the fact and the truth No matter from where or whom it comes, as EINSTEIN.
After all, I have ONE EASY QUESTION, and I yould like if you give me your answer.
Question: "There are WAVES on the surface of the sea, do you think there are waves under those waves in the sea?. YES or NO, (of course you can bring if you like anything about the WAVES and the SEA, but no more please)
Please do give me an answer (it is not a trick question, I swear, and my God is my witness), and bring your answer in a separate post without attaching it to anything else.
God bless you.
That is fine, but what about the following :
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/16/08 6:32
A: In the sea? Waves?
There are what are known as "rip tides".
There are currents.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/16/08 14:23
A: Web pages on the history of Islam and the Koran.
Sam,
Your writing about the Koran is not easy to understand.
I did a web search, using the words "Koran" and "exegesis".
The pages I first went to were not simple enough for me.
I then came upon this web source :
This second link gives the kind of simplicity I was looking for.
It concludes by saying the following :
" Despite all such religious and secular avenues from which the Koran is approached, Muslim and Western analyses agree that the Koran is a beautiful, lyrical, and powerful work. "
Whereas you say such things as " the Koran is the only Holy book ", whereas you present what your beliefs as f a c t s,
whereas you present Bible writings as and Christian churches to be so deeply flawed as to be of little value,
this web page has an approach I was hoping for on this tab I created.
The e-note web page explains that
" The critical reception of the Koran can be
divided roughly into 2 categories:
1.
Muslim exegesis ; distinction may be drawn between
- traditional or conservative interpretation,
- and the approach of modernists to the Koran.
Nineteenth- and twentieth-century Muslim exegesis of the Koran has been approached primarily from 3 different viewpoints:
(i) natural history, also referred to as scientific exegesis, in which attempts are made to prove that modern sciences are not in contradiction with the Koran;
(ii) philology, in which attempts are made to uncover the literal meaning of the Koran, the meaning it would have had in Muhammad's time;
(iii) and from the viewpoint of the day-to-day life of Muslims
(this approach is often referred to as practical exegesis),
in which an effort is made to determine which aspects of modern daily life should be influenced by the Koran.
2.
Western examination of the Koran has included
- histories of the text and its "author;"
- analysis of its form and style; and
- comparison with Jewish and Christian scripture.
Given the links to science in your explanations, this article would place you in the category of Koran analysts qualified as
the 19th & 20th century natural history approach.
You see the text as a " dictation from God ".
Many conservative US Christians see the Bible as a " dictation from God " as well.
Though you and conservative US Christendom believe in different books, your belief in the nature of revelation (as 'dictated' ) is one in the same.
I do not believe in the ' direct dictation' method of revelation.
I believe that Scripture is literature which reflects what men are able to say about divinity. Though human literature, I believe that God's goodness is revealled in that literature.
I agree with Doctor Tabor that it is desirable to have the imperfections and imprint of history in sacreed text.
It is in the examination of the imperfections in sacred text,
it is in the examination of the imprint of history in sacred text,
that I see r e v e a l e d the ruoh of God.
Sam, dear Sir, we have not been exchanging.
Rather, we have been 'talking a t each other'.
The e-notes web pages list the major themes of the Koran as :
- salvation and judgement; the nature of God; the concepts of free will and predestination; the relationship between reason and revelation; the role of prophets; universalism; religious duties, day-to-day living principles and rules.
I now understand that you, like Christians who interpret the Bible in a literal way, you view the Koran as a dictation from God.
I now understand the difference between your belief system and mine.
I thank you for the exchange.
Indie
Name:sam •
Date: 01/17/08 0:38
A: Hello Indie,
I asked a simple question, Here it is again: "Question: "There are WAVES on the surface of the sea, do you think there are waves under those waves in the sea?. YES or NO,
this was your answer:
In the sea? Waves?
There are what are known as "rip tides".
There are currents.
---- The currents and the rip tides are known to man from the time when man put his feein water and swam. My question is not about the currents and the rip tides.
---- sea? Waves?. that is what my question is about. ?? is not the answer.
Q- there is waves in the sea under the waves which we can see?. please give an answer by: Yes or no, or I don't know.
thanks in advance , and God bless you.
Name:sam •
Date: 01/17/08 1:11
A: In die , Hi again,
Here are few verses from Matthew:
4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
4:2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.
4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
4:5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
Question: "Do you believe that this story is TRUE or FALSE.
iF IT IS TRUE, EXPLAINE IT TO ME PLEASE, since you believe in Jesus as God (son of God), because in the verse which came before this story it say :
"And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. " M- 3:17
the truth I am very confused, because God said in a loud voice "THIS IS MY BELOVED SON" !!!. AND YOU BELIEVE THAT jESUS IS gOD !!!, Was Jesus the God talking to Himself Jesus the God on earth, and calling HIM My son I am well pleased with you???
God bless you, and good night.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/17/08 2:00
A: Wave to fishes and the deep blue sea,
Joy to you and me.
Sorry. I was singing there for a minute.
A silly song from the 70s.
The only words to the song I ever learned were the above.
So, are there waves, under the sea?
Oh no, I feel another song coming on :
Up on the shore they work all day
Out in the sun they slave away
While we devotin’
Full time to floatin’
Under the sea
Down here all the fish are happy
As off through the waves day roll
The fish on the land ain’t happy
They're sad 'cause they're in a bowl
But fish in the bowl is lucky
They're in for a worser fate
One day when the boss gets hungry
Guess whos goin’ be on the plate (uh-oh)
Under the sea, under the sea
Nobody beats us
Fry us and eat us in fricasee
We what the land folks love to cook
Under the sea we off the hook
We got no troubles life is the bubbles
Okay : I'l answer your question :
Are there waves, under the sea?
Pause....
I'm just waiting a moment before answering,
in cace another song comes to mind ....
Hum, hope. No more songs in my brain.
Okay; here goes; I'm going to answer your question :
You sitting down ?
Answer : No. Waves of water are on the surface.
Do you know the term 'surge' ?
They speak of surges in the sea.
No? Okay. You wanted a straight yes-no answer.
I say no. There are no waves under the sea,
under the sea, I wave to the fishes in the deep blue sea,
so, joy to you and me.
Of course, when I wave to the fishes in the deep blue sea,
I wear my mask, and my snorkle, and my flippers.
And a child is on my back with a mask, looking right along with me.
Joy, to the world, joy to boys and girls,
Joy to the fishes in the deep blue sea,
Joy to you and me.
Shoukran for making me go silly tonight.
Indie
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/17/08 2:23
A: The Matthew quote :
Good evening Sam.
The term 'Christology' is the term used way back in the 70s when I was a student, to speak of the idea that Jesus was God.
I do not know if the term is still around.
As I have said in other posts, my degree in theology is very dusty, indeed.
But, I think Matthew was a Jewish writer, no?
As such, he would be trying, in his edition of the Jesus stories,
to link Jesus' experiences to the experiences of Israel of old.
The number "40" jumps out at me.
It is the number of years Moses was in the desert.
Other than that, my recollection is pretty dim.
Matthew used the basic text of Mark, that much I remember.
He was Jewish, so, he would naturally refer back to ancient
Israel. And, he would further add on 'stuff ' (Christology)
to make a statement about the nature of Jesus.
Anyone who was a king (be he in Greece, Rome, or Egypt,
was considered a God.
I tend to read Matthew for the sermon on the Mount.
I stopped splitting Christological hairs about 20 years ago.
Indie,
Joy to the world,
Joy to boys and girls,
Wave to the fishes in the deep blue sea,
Joy to you and me. :)
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/17/08 2:35
A: P.S. to the Matthew thread :
May I add ?
Matthew, a Jewish writer, took the text of Mark,
inserted links to the writings of ancien Israel,
then added new elements with regards to Christology.
Moses, hoped on a helicopter, just kidding,
mosied on over to Bagdad to take a gander at the social laws
on the tablet over there (Don't steal, Don't covet, Don't lie,
be respectful of your mother, especially in Ireland :) ...
,
then scuried back up the mountain and added on his
new religious laws (Keep the Sabbath, adore only One God...),
Editing. It's called editing. Moses did it.
The prophets did it. Heck, the birds in the trees did it.
Editing.
Arab culture is still very much a culture of story telling.
As one travels from the West Down To The East,
any day now, any way now, in North Africa,
one hears one version of a story in Morroco,
a different version of it in Algeria, Tunesia has its version,
then Egypt...., and so on , and I shall be released from
this verse spliting, when I see the Son come shining.
Indie,
With a song in my heart
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/17/08 13:33
A: Moses
http://www.ntgateway.com/weblog/
Hi Sam,
I just listened for a 2nd time to the clip on the Pentateuch (first Five Books of the Torah) (Gn Ex Lv Dt).
To locate the clip, on the page of the above link, scroll down to the
" Who Wrote The Bible " section.
The little MENU button in the YouTube screen can show choices for 7 clips; click on the right arrow, and another 7 choices become visible; click on the right arrow again, and the last of 15 clips becomes visible.
In the 2nd set of vedio clip choices, one is called Part 2 of Who Wrote The Bible. This clip refers to exegesis (text analysis) of the Pentateuch.
They show a verse that announces the death of Moses.
Moses wrote about his own death?
They, the literary analyts, conclude that he did not.
They even suppose that there are four sources for the Pentateuch.
- Y for the sections of text that call God Yaweh
- E for the sections of tect that call God Elohim
- P for the sections regarding priestly matters
- D for the section regarding rules (deuteronomy)
The clip explains that dating of Old Testament archaeological sites was found to not jive (not correspond) with what was written in the Bible.
Remember that numbering of years d e c r e a s e s when we speak of Old Testament times
(10 th century was followed by the
9th century, was followed by the
8th century...).
When we read the Old Testament, we commonly think of the 10th century BCE (the 900s) as the time when Solomon lived, and as the time of what was called the "Unified Monarchy" (the north and south kingdoms before they split into Judah and Israel).
But archaeology shows that in the 900s, Jerusalem would have been merely a village.
Correction in archaeological strata dating now shows that oral story telling lasted for longer than previously thought. The 'institution' of king's court scribal writing, began in fact, only centuries later.
I may have understood incorrectly, but I wonder if the following analogy might explain why Bible text describes the 10th century BCE as grandiose, when it was still very humble : it would be kind of like China saying now, today, that it has a l w a y s been the economic power that it is now.
Would it be kinda like China saying to itself
" We always knew we'd become great some day.."
Some countries in Africa are on the verge of turning their economies around, because education, lowered birth rate and better survival rates are allowing more children to grow into their productive years.
In 20 years from now, when their economies are well on their way to truly being established,
they might look back on the efforts of today,
efforts at education,
efforts to insure survival of children,
efforts to lower birth rates,
and say, " Well we always knew we had it in us".
At a place called Meggido, are the ruins of a gate called Solomon's Gate, thought to date back to the 900s BCE.
But, the ruins actually are from the 700s BCE.
That is a whole 200 years later.
Two hundred years of history is time for populations to grow, for villages to become cities....
Dating of the archaeological strata at Meggido has been revised.
The Bible describes the 10th century BCE (the 900s) as it only actually was a couple of hundred years later, in the 8th century BCE (the 700s).
So the text specialists and the dirt specialists (the exegetes and the archaeologists) needed to join dots in order to more accurately view Old Testament history.
Literary editing.
Moses did it.
The prophets did it.
Cole Porter in Paree did it.
Editing.
The amazing thing about bone boxes is that they have
" writing "
in
the archaeological strata.
Usually, we have parchments (scrolls) in one place,
and ancient structures in another.
The beauty of ossuaries, is that they offer writing and ancient structures in one place.
Indie
Name:sam •
Date: 01/17/08 14:42
A: Dear Indie,
Your answer to the verses of the Quran talking about the universe, was: "As one who has sat in the Sinai desert, and seen,
because of the low humidity and lack of clouds, "
And I understand from your answer, that you lack any scientific knowledge, that is why I brought the words of the great scientists to prove that you are wrong.
Before that , you talked about Arab and Muslim bashing the Bible, And I show you that you are wrong, By bringing the truth Do you remember . "Forgive me".
My question to you about the WAVES, and which I get this answer from you:
No? Okay. You wanted a straight yes-no answer.
I say no. There are no waves under the sea,
under the sea, I wave to the fishes in the deep blue sea,
Let us forget about the "surge" and the "FISHES", and con sentrate about the wave.
Here is MY LAST QUESTION :
"IF THE QURAN MENTIONED THAT THERE ARE WAVES IN THE DEEP SEAS, AND THE SCIENTIST OF THE HIGHEST SCIENTIFIC ORGANIZATION IN THE WORLD TODAY FIND OUT THAT THERE ARE WAVES IN THE DEEP SEAS , then can you accept the idea that the Quran is not the words of Muhammad, or any other man, BUT THE WORDS OF THE ONE WHO CREATED THIS WORLD, and that the Quran is the world is of God. "
Note: remember that the word of the Quran were written 1400 years ago.
Please do not bring more songs, and let us stick to the subject of finding the truth about the faiths (mine & yours) by a logical and scientific & respect approach. And do not say this please, "Shoukran for making me go silly tonight." because I am not, and I do respect you, and what we going through is not about you and me, you should know that.
Thank you.
After You answer my question, I will prove to you that what is is written in the Quran from information are true and they are the words of God.
God bless you.
I am going to be ho
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/17/08 17:32
A: Sam, you have hurt me !
See below, Indie's post pasted between ___*** ***___,
which originally appeared in
" General Discussions : Inter Faith.... "
on Jan 8th at 8 minutes to 1 a.m.
______________________
***
Name: QuebecIndieAnna
• Date: 01/12/08 0:52
A: Sam
Forgive me. I should have explained what I know to be the meaning of the term "Bible Bashing".
I have only heard the term when people mean
quoting verses of scripture in order to preach.
If you thought I meant demeaning the Bible,
I regret the misunderstandiing.
When I used the term Bible bashing, I was reacting to your saying
that people who say anything in anyway, will condemn themselves with their words.
I do not mind it when you quote the Bible.
I would not mind if you quoted the Coran.
What is, was, irritating, was that the quotes were not presented in a spirit of exchange, but in a more of proselytising and implying that those who do not heed the 'Word' are going to hell.
I've had Pentecostal neighbours flatout say " Its too bad that I'm going to hell ". To be spoken to in this fashion, in front of one's child is intolerable to me. I have low tolerance for rhetoric that quotes Scripture to imply someone is going to hell.
My initial invitation was for people to share something they'd learned about the Scripture, through text analysis, which they found interesting.
My invitation was not " let's proselytize each other to distraction ".
Your obvious need to keep absolute track of the logical flow of discussions shows your need to try to lock othe human beings into following you blindly as you interrogate them.
I do not engage in that kind of submission.
I shared about several of the commandments being on a tablet in Bagdad.
I shared about how the Celts came up with rabbits laying eggs.
Tid bits. Yes. Ones I found interesting when I did my studies.
Showing how historical analysis sheds light on present day social practices.
My invitation was not a wish to be preached at.
If I want to be preached at, I'll go to Church.
To conclude : again, I regret that the expression of Bible basing
was misunderstood. A better wording would have been
Verse Ping Pong. I hope my clarification helps.
I assure you that in the part of the North American continent that I come from, the term Bible Bashing means
to quote verses in ping pong fashion.
If I can offer further explanation of how I have a l l w a y s heard this expression used, please let me know. I regret the misunderstanding.
All I meant to say was ping ponging Bible verses in order to impose a point of view is something that people in Quebec are sensitive about,
b e c a u s e of our unique history with our Church.
To explain the sensitivity, may I give an example ?
I'll use a known figure from Quebec and hope you know of
her family.
Do you know of the singer Céline Dion ?
She comes from a family of over a dozen children.
The birthrate in Quebec families was very high because of the influence of the Church. When the birth-control pill came along, our birth rate fell to zero almost. Why? Because the burden of large families had partly been imposed by the Church. There was a kind of 'revolt' against the Church here. My mother-in-law didn't really know her mother. She was raised more by one of her sisters.
Sam, I will be away for a few days.
I am glad I checke the posts before leaving.
I would not have wanted to leave you without explaining how the term Bible Bashing is used where I live.
I should not have used the term.
Talk to you again. Indie. ****
______________________________
S a m,
I k n o w you read that post.
You refer to that post on this very page :
Name: sam • Date: 01/12/08 18:39
A: Dear Indie,
Before few minute I finished my post answering some of your questions, and when I pressed the "Post", the computer freezes, So I have to turn it of. IT happen several times before.
I will try to write tomorrow .
Y o u w i l l b e a w a y f ro m h o m e t h e n e x t f e w d a ys,
I wish happy time, and a safe return.
God bless you.
_______________
Sam, did you understand my explanation about the term
Bible bashing ? In the US and in Canada, the term
means two people exchanging on their Bible views by
means of quoting verses.
The meaning I know for that term, do not have to do with
demeaning.
I asked you to tell me if I could offer further explanation.
Can you tell me why you put that term back in my mouth,
in a derogatory way ?
Up until now, you have been a gentleman.
Up until now, you have been honest.
What am I to think of you now?
You hurt me.
I did not deserve to be spoken to you in the way you spoke to me just
above.
I did not deserve for you to put the term " Bible Bashing " back in my
mouth, with a slant I never gave to the term.
What am I to think of your intentions?
I just got through typing two silly posts, singing as I typed them.
What a slap in the face is your latest post.
You end your post by saying "God Bless You" .
Really?
Indie
Indie
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/17/08 18:30
A: Sam's question about waves
Dear Sam,
My humour and song quoting offended you.
You wish to remain serious.
I will do as you ask.
This exchange is important to you.
Being able to say what you want, is important to you.
I will refrain from turning to humour.
I suppose that my impatience with minute details got the better of me.
Sam, I would not be surprised at all that the Koran contains truthes, scientific and otherwise.
The Koran was written centuries after Bible texts.
It only stands to reason that it contains more accurate cosmology.
Regarding waves, it occurs to me that when there is an under-sea land slide, or quake, such at caused the devastating tsunami, it stands to reason that waves exist under the sea.
What I do know about Arab literature, writing, and poetry, is that it is very beautiful indeed. You mention that Muslim commit to memory tremendous amounts of verbatim text.
I have sat and listened to an Arab poet recite from memory poem after poem after poem, for several hours.
I am already convinced as to the constantness of oral traditions.
I once read that the poet, Khalil Gibran, only learned to read and write when he was 12 years of age.
I believe that Gibran's poetic ability came to him because of the Arab culture's wonderful way with words, its oral traditions, story memorisation and telling.
You wish for me to :
" accept the idea that the Quran is not the words of Muhammad, or any other man, BUT THE WORDS OF THE ONE WHO CREATED THIS WORLD, and that the Quran is the world is of God. "
You have that desire, I assume, because you care deeply about
your faith.
I understand your Socratic reasoning.
I thank you for caring to want to share with me something that is precious to you.
I understand that for you, your Holy Book is a 'dictation from God'.
I do not believe that God works that way.
The way that I come to an understanding of Scripture, is through the historical, text-analysis method.
Looking in a new way at the inscriptions on the bone boxes is an illustration of the historical, text-analysis method.
You use the historical, text-analysis method to talk about the human touch in the Bible.
Do you use the same method when you study Koranic writings ?
Again, I have been away from this field for 20 years.
I do not know what, if anything, has been done in the way of
literary analysis of Koranic writings.
Am I to understand that the Koran is a 'dictation from God',
period, no discussion?
Why do you, as a Muslim convert, feel okay doing historical text analysis of Biblical text, yet seem to hold to the idea that the Koran is directly from God.
Sam, Baptists in the south of the US think the Bible is directly from God.
Try to understand :
I am told by my Pentecostal neighbour that I am going to hell because I do not believe the Bible is the direct word of God.
I am not saved, to use his words.
I am told by you, that the Koran is the direct word of God.
I belive that faith, Christian faith, Muslim faith, Jewish faith, Native Indian faith, is a real part of who we each are as humain beings.
Hope in another life is in all cultures.
Faith is in all cultures.
Writings are culture-specific.
The Bible may contain truthes the Koran does not.
The Koran may contain truthes the Bible does not.
But I do not believe that either contain 100% direct dictations from God.
That is what I believe.
And unless I am mistaken, Mohammed himself says I have the right to believe as I believe.
peace,
Indie
Name:sam •
Date: 01/18/08 16:35
A: Dear Indie,
I am sorry that you felt hurt, it was not my intention. I do regard all those who share with me their opinion and knowledge as friends, and when I end my post with “God bless you”, I do mean it, and it come from my heart.
If you read my posts in both “The Vision” or “ the National Geographic” for the last three years, then you will know , first, that I always respect the others, and second, I deal with my discussions seriously, and do read their post more than one time, and then I do a lot of work searching about the subject before I give my answer.
I AN NOT SEEKING WINNING AN ARGUMENT, BUT SEEKING THE TRUTH. I try my best to deal with any subject in a scientific & logical way.
IMPORTANT:
- To find the truth about the Hinduism or Buddhism beliefs, one should go and study their books, and analyze them. Getting the information from the Muslim sources is wrong , because it will not give the right picture. Buddhism faith hold a lot of good things, person should be fair in his/her judgment.
- If one brings what the Jews believe in Jesus and what they been writing about Him for years, that will not give the truth about Jesus, so the best thing to know about Him is to go direct to His words and the story of His life.
- And the same can be said about the rest.
- When talking about faith and religion, one should take this subject in a serious way, because in matter of fact we are talking about the words of God, ans if we believe in HIM and in the Judgment day, then we should know that we are responsible for every word we say. Here is the word of truth from Jesus:
Mat- 12:32 WHOEVER SPEAKS A WORD AGAINST THE SON OF MAN {JESUS}, IT SHALL BE FORGIVEN HIM; BUT WHOEVER SPEAKS AGAINST THE HOLY SPIRIT {GOD}, IT SHALL NOT BE FORGIVEN HIM, EITHER IN THIS AGE OR THE AGE TO COME.
My friend Indie, When you brought songs and singer as an answer to my questions, I felt bad too, and I felt that you taken me as a person who does not know what he is talking about.
Let us forget all that and talk in a serious way
God bless you.
I am going shopping now, I will give my answer about the waves when I come back.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/18/08 16:42
A: Okay.
Hi Sam.
Talk to you later.
Happy shopping.
Indie
Name:Jonn •
Date: 01/19/08 3:46
A: I was surprise to find out the Jews Talmud (Anti -Christ Book) said about Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. When I compared what the Muslim Quran said about Jesus Christ.
It is the weirdest book (Talmud) I ever read. So how can they get peace and stable life in their country with denying Jesus? They are still paying the price! I am praying to the Lord to give them mercy and revelation. Our precious Jesus Christ gave us peace, salvation, Eternal life, healing to our spirit, soul and flesh. He changed our attitude and perception of this world. I don’t have words to express my deep satisfaction after he changed my life. He is our bride and will come take us to live with Him. Bless be the almighty God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who gave us his only begotten son.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/19/08 5:34
A: John,
I left you a note on another page.
Indie
Name:sam •
Date: 01/20/08 0:28
A: Dear Indie,
you mentioned this:
"Sam, I would not be surprised at all that the Koran contains truthes, scientific and otherwise.
The Koran was written centuries after Bible texts."
That after nearly 600 years, and some of the scientific information in the Quran was not known until the time of Galileo, and others were not known until the 20 & 21st century.
I am going to bring to you some of my findings:
The Quran said:
24:40 Or [they are] like darkness within AN UNFATHOMABLE SEA WHICH IS COVERED BY WAVES, UPON WHICH ARE WAVES, OVER WHICH ARE CLOUDS.
Darknesses, some of them upon others. When one puts out his hand [therein], he can hardly see it. And he to whom GOD has not granted light , for him there is no light.
In this verse we see the sequence clear. There waves in the deep sea and then the surface waves, then the clouds. And I kept doubting this verse and another one (I will mention it later on ), that is until, and by chance I opened the TV to watch National Geographic,{the was sometime in last year}, and there was a documentary program about a research submarine that went into the Golf stream for one month and recorded million of in formations, and everyone of the crews describe the voyage. And here came one to describe the waves in the deep sea . The sub Ben Franklin was launched at the time when the first rocket launched to put the first man on the moon.
Next day I open the NASA sight and kept searching for many hours, and the next day I spent many hour searching for Benjamin Franklin and then I gave up. After few days I came back, and while I am searching I noticed that my search was in the wrong place , so, I try Franklin, then research subs, then at last I got what I was looking for , it is “ ben franklin research submarine” YOU CAN VISIT THIS SITE AND THE THING FOR YOURSELF.
Here how to get to the sight:
1-search... ben franklin research submarine.
2- click on ...the ben franklin-grumman/piccard px -15 submersible.
3- click on .... Ben Franklin captain’s log
Here few line from this site:
Ben Franklin: Captain's Log
Ben Franklin Gulf Stream Drift Mission Report
Grumman Aerospace Corporation
Ocean Systems Department
Document OSR-69-19
The following is a very condensed version of the Captain's Log
written by Captain Don Kazimir and published in the
Ben Franklin Gulf Stream Drift Mission Report,
describing how the mission progressed day-by-day and
highlighting some of the most significant events.
The hand-drawn figures were part of the very detailed
and lavishly illustrated logbook kept by Erwin Aebersold,
engineer and pilot onboard Ben Franklin.
Thereafter a day by day records and each day is followed by a chart (drawing by the captain pen). Started on 14 July 1969 and ended on 14 August 1969.
On 23 July 1969 the drawing shows the waves on the surface, and below at the depth of about 200 feet the internal waves.
Under the drawing the captain wrote:
Today we were drifting at 200 meters, about 100 miles east of
Charleston, South Carolina. For a short period, internal waves {INTERNAL WAVES}
were noted at 1000 hours. The boat sometimes changes depth of
40 meters in wave periods of 15 minutes.
All the scientific information which the Quran came with 1400 years age, they came to be known later on and after many year, and AFTER TIME, and that is what the Quran say:
38:88 And you will surely know THE TRUTH OF ITS INFORMATION AFTER TIME.
41:53 WE will show them OUR signs in the horizons and within themselves until it becomes clear to them that it is THE TRUTH, but it is not sufficient concerning your LORD that HE IS, OVER ALL THINGS, A WITNESS?.
29:43 AND THESE EXAMPLES WE REPRESENT TO THE PEOPLE, BUT NONE WILL UNDERSTAND THEM EXCEPT THOSE OF KNOWLEDGE.
29:20 O MUHAMMAD, SAY TO THEM, “GO TRAVEL THROUGH THE EARTH AND OBSERVE HOW THE CREATION BEGAN.”
{KNOWLEDGE... GOD ASKED THE PEOPLE TO FIND THE TRUTH IN OUR UNIVERSE (THE HORIZON) , EVEN TO FIND EVERYTHING ABOUT HIS CREATION FROM THE BEGINNING, AND ABOUT OURSELVES (WITHIN), BECAUSE IF WE DO NOT DO THAT THEN WE ARE LIKE THE ONE WHO LIVE IN THE DARKNESS ( Q-24:40 ABOVE)}
----I don’t think any man before the year 1969 believed that there are internal waves in the deep seas, and that include Muhammad who lived in the desert.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/20/08 18:10
A: The 1960s Gulf Stream Drift Mission
Hi Sam.
Thank you for referring me to the site on
Ben Franklin: Captain's Log
Ben Franklin Gulf Stream Drift Mission Report
Grumman Aerospace Corporation
Ocean Systems Department
Document OSR-69-19
I- enjoyed scrolling down that page.
I liked the drawings.
Some of them are really neat.
I remember that summer of the first moon landing.
My grand-father was amazed, as we all watched it on tv.
I had no idea, that at the same time, a "yellow submarine"
had gone under water in Florida, with the idea of drifting north
all the way up to Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada.
Neat!
Man, what it must have been like to go for
a ride on the Gulf Stream,
in a yellow submarine. :)
(Just a teeny tiny song ref there.
The Beatles had a song out back then entitled
" We all live in a yellow submarine".
I use to sing it, cause I like songs with silly lyrics.
I guess you noticed, aye? )
Anyway.
The verse in the Koran that refers to waves in the deep sea,
compared with results of the observations by
the Ben Franklin submarine expedition in the summer of 69
to drift north on the Gulf Stream for 30 days,
is something I had never heard.
I've never read the Koran.
My knowledge in the area of science is above average for someone
not in a scientific field, but not enough for me to interpret what
the captain's log is saying.
Do you mean to say that the expedition 'discovered'
or described deep sea waves for the first time
in that expedition ?
The verse you quote from the Koran :
- is it in a section that is listing things that will be discovered later?
- is there a section of the Koran devoted to prophecy?
- is the verse part of some pronouncement with a context?
Man, it is c o l d today. Minus 19 C! Burrrr.
I wonder if James Cameron has ever commented on the Ben Franklin dive on 1969? He seems to be into that kind of discovery.
Talk to you later.
Bonne journée.
Indie
.
Name:sam •
Date: 01/21/08 17:10
A: Hello Indie,
"Do you mean to say that the expedition 'discovered'
or described deep sea waves FOR THE FIRST TIME
in that expedition ?"
YES.
One of the scientist on board the sub wrote a letter and gave total detail in describing the waves, and when they felt that some big waves where takin them to the bottom. I tried last time to find this letter, and I am going to try again, I hope I will find it.
When I say YES , as for the first time, that is because the one who organized this mission are not regular persons but the US Government ,through NASA:
. . .and missed the other big story, the other historic mission. At the time, even I was unaware of a second NASA mission which, in a truly stunning coincidence, launched the day before Apollo 11 departed for the Moon. Of course, all eyes were on the three astronauts. No one was watching the launch of PX-15. (that is what I mentioned before)
Down in Florida, NASA is preparing to send, not one, but two historic missions out of Earth’s breathable atmosphere to explore new frontiers.
last minute checks, counting down to launch. Both missions are the culmination, the fulfillment of hopes set in motion 8 years earlier by President Kennedy.
the INTERNAL WAVES wasn't known before, because this was the firs project of it is kind.
As for your questions :
"The verse you quote from the Koran :
1- is it in a section that is listing things that will be discovered later?
NO, There is no section listing thing... Those are examples and informations came throughout the book.
------ As we all know, at the time of Muhammad there were no big institutions to carry on scientific research, people of that time all around the world has little knowledge (most of the time the wrong one- the earth is flat), and the one who can read and write are few.
God will not present knowledge to those people in precise details, but he gave them INFORMATIONS AS EXAMPLES * throughout the book. and HE clearly mentioned that these information will be known AFTER TIME**.
Do you think that if Einstein brought his scientific works to a stadium (you remember the example about Jerusalim) in front of croud of 50 thousand people, HOW MANY of those will understand what he is talking about? (AN WE ARE in the 21st century), only few will undrstand some, and those are the knowledgable ones.
* Q- 18:54 And WE have certainly diversified in this Quran for the people from EVERY KIND OF EXAMPLE; but man has ever been, most of anything, [prone to] DISPUTE.
Q-29:43 And these EXAMPLES WE PRESENT to the people, BUT NONE WILL UNDERSTAND THEM EXCEPT THOSE OF KNOWLEDGE.
Q-59:21 And these EXAMPLES WE PRESENT to the people that perhaps they will give thought.
** I will bring later on few more of those informations which came to be known AFTER TIME.
2- is there a section of the Koran devoted to prophecy?.
-------- NO, But what came in the Quran, also proves that THE WORDS OF JESUS ARE THE TRUTH, and ALSO HIS PROPHECY IS TRUE.
I will talk about it in my following posts.
3- is the verse part of some pronouncement with a context?"
----- I think you will get the answer by reading few pages of the Quran, those the one which I brought the verses from.
In the chapter 14, [IBRAHEEM] ABRAHAM, verse 38
"OUR LORD, INDEED YOU KNOW WHAT WE CONCEAL AND WHAT WE DECLARE, AND NOTHING IS HIDDEN FROM GOD ON THE EARTH OR IN HEAVEN."
It is freezing here too....and I catch the cold from two day, and I feel bad.
God bless you.
Name:sam •
Date: 01/21/08 22:55
A: Dear Indie,
The waves upon waves and the darkness was given as an example to those who do not believe in the word of God,
The following example is given to those who do not believe in God, and they think that they are going to escape the day of the resurrection, and the day of judgment.
Q- 86:1-4 BY THE SKY AND THE NIGHT COMER - AND WHAT CAN MAKE YOU KNOW WHAT IS THE NIGHT COMER?, IT IS THE PIERCING STAR - THERE IS NO SOUL BUT THAT IT HAS OVER IT A PROTECTOR.
86:8 INDEED, HE (GOD), TO RETURN HIM, IS ABLE.
JET PROPULSION LABORATORY CALIFORNIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY NATIONAL AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ADMINISTRATION PASADENA, CALIF.
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE January 24, 2002 BLACK HOLE MYSTERY MIMICKED BY SUPERCOMPUTER Advanced supercomputers have simulated extremely powerful energy jets squirted out by black holes, the most exotic and powerful objects in the Universe. This research helps us unlock the mysteries of rotating black holes and confirms that their rotation actually produces power output, said Dr. David Meier, an astrophysicist at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif. Meier is co-author of a paper that will appear in the journal Science. The leader of the research team is Dr. Shinji Koide of Toyama University, Toyama, Japan.
A BLACK HOLE IS AN OBJECT SO DENSE AND POWERFUL THAT NOTHING, NOT EVEN LIGHT, CAN ESCAPE.
{you can read the total work by going to NASA site}
- PIERCING STAR ...1400 years ago. Came as an example, that our souls is protected and will be return to HIM, and there is no escape. And the piercing star is an example.
- BLACK HOLE ....after 1400 years , they discover things in the universe, and they call it Black hole, and it took years before finding the truth about this hole. It is not a holy in the sky, but a star SO POWERFUL THAT NOT EVEN LIGHT CAN ESCAPE FROM IT !!!.
BY THE SKY , God swear by the sky and by the piercing star, that no sole can escape from HIM. And I think the BLACK HOLE will prove that.
God bless you.
Name:sam •
Date: 01/22/08 16:27
A: Dear indie,
I read this verse while ago:
21:104 The day when WE WILL FOLD THE HEAVEN LIKE THE FOLDING OF A [WRITTEN] SHEET [BOOKS] FOR THE RECORDS . As WE began the first creation, WE will repeat it. That is a promise binding upon US. Indeed, WE will do it.
{This example came from God to show the people, HIS power over everything.}
I DID QUESTION THE TRUTH OF THAT VERSE, because it cannot be accepted from the logical or the scientific point of views.
As I know that our universe is in a sphere shape ( a big globe), so how that shape can be folded like the sheet of paper ?. The Muslims accepted it without any question, but not me.
Long time ago Panluna asked me “ where God resides, and in which galaxy, and I did search the holy books (all of them) , and I gave her an answer, I think she accepted it. I take any question from anyone seriously.
I do always go to NASA, and the other scientific sites for search of news of the new discoveries.
One day I came to read the following:
GEOMETRY OF THE UNIVERSE.
The density of the universe also determines its geometry. If the density of the universe exceeds the critical density, then the geometry of space is closed and positively curved like the surface of a sphere. This implies that initially parallel photon paths converge slowly, eventually cross, and return back to their starting point (if the universe lasts long enough). If the density of the universe is less than the critical density, then the geometry of space is open, negatively curved like the surface of a saddle. If the density of the universe exactly equals the critical density, then the geometry of the universe is flat like a SHEET OF PAPER. Thus, there is a direct link between the geometry of the universe and its fate.
The simplest version of the inflationary theory, an extension of the Big Bang theory, predicts that the density of the universe is very close to the critical density, and that the geometry of the universe is flat, like a sheet of paper. That is the result confirmed by the WMAP science.
Measurements from WMAP
The WMAP spacecraft can measure the basic parameters of the Big Bang theory including the geometry of the universe. If the universe were open, the brightest microwave background fluctuations (or spots ) would be about half a degree across. If the universe were flat, the spots would be about 1 degree across. While if the universe were closed, the brightest spots would be about 1.5 degrees across.
Recent measurements (c. 2001) by a number of ground-based and balloon-based experiments, including MAT/TOCO, Boomerang, Maxima, and DASI, have shown that the brightest spots are about 1 degree across. Thus the universe was known to be flat to within about 15% accuracy prior to the WMAP results. WMAP has confirmed this result with very high accuracy and precision. We now know that the universe is flat {LIKE A SHEET OF PAPER} with only a 2% margin of error.
After reading the results of this scientific work “the universe is flat {LIKE A SHEET OF PAPER}” , I went back to read the verse which says : “WE WILL FOLD THE HEAVEN LIKE THE FOLDING OF A [WRITTEN] SHEET FOR THE RECORDS “, then I went to my records to read the following:
WE WILL SHOW THEM OUR SIGNS IN THE HORIZONS AND WITHIN THEMSELVES UNTIL IT BECOMES CLEAR TO THEM THAT IT IS THE TRUTH.......... Q-41:53
------ I said to myself if the “heaven” universe is flat, and there are seven of them according to all the holy books, and if we believe that God has the power to create them, THEN IT IS EASY FOR HIM TO FOLD THEM AND CLOSE THE CHAPTER AND START ANOTHER ONE.
When I brought the examples I brought with them a lot of good and interesting real scientific knowledge, at least hopping that you accept them.
There are many other examples, and I will bring them in the future, if you are interested.
God bless you.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/24/08 3:46
A: This post, from Sam, pasted from another page.
Name: sam • Date: 01/23/08 12:16
A: Hi Indie,
"Let this gathering be the sign to all peoples.
The time is now for all men to join words.
Even, imperfect words."
THOSE ARE YOUR WORDS.
And really I wanted to join with you to speak my words, "PEFECT OR IMPERFECT", but not to talk "words......words" and waste time, {because we are responsible even for them, specially when it is about GOD'S WORD & THE HOLY BOOKS, (remember Jesus words-Mat-12:32)}
But to come to the truth of things in regards to the different faiths and believes, and you came with a post under this title:
"Sam & Indie's Bible-Coran sharing "
SHARING ?. THAT IS WHAT YOU WANT.
I did my part as you asked, and I tried to share with you some of what I know about the Quran (a lot of wrong thing said about it from the people of the churches (Benedict) and from others (Sinai desert etc.), specially the parts when it brings scientific information to prove that this book is not the work of Muhammad or any man but the word of GOD, and I supported everything with the words of the scientists (non of them Muslim) from the 21st century.
And I hopped that you FULFIL YOUR PART and share with me something of the scientific work from the Bible {old/new}, since all those who believe in this book claims the Bible hold scientific things, and you did not bring any. I the past, when I brought this question none came back with an answer, and one example from the N.G forums, when Joe Trusty (engineer- and church activist, Boston, MA, ) wanted to discuss the Bible "PRIVETELY !!!" through our mails, but he vanished after I asked him a very simple and logical question!.
This was the question:
"Do you think that some of what been writeen in the Bible {Genesis- 16:1 to 21:20} true or false?. Let me know."
I think he found the truth which he was blind to see it before, and he does not want to admitted !!!.
24:40 Or [they are] like darkness within AN UNFATHOMABLE SEA WHICH IS COVERED BY WAVES, UPON WHICH ARE WAVES, OVER WHICH ARE CLOUDS.
Darknesses, some of them upon others. When one puts out his hand [therein], he can hardly see it. And he to whom GOD has not granted light , for him there is no light.
That is the truth.
This question {abot Genesis} I will repeat it to again, wishing that one time I will get A TRUE AND HONEST ANSWER.
Only the truth can lead us to God . The false, for sure will leads to hell. "It shall not be forgiven Him (who said false against God), either in this age or the age to come......Jesus true words"
God bless you.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/24/08 5:12
A: W e d n e s d a y, Jan 23, 2008
23h
What is between ****** and ******* S a m W r o t e :
******************************
I really I wanted to join with you to speak my words, "PEFECT OR IMPERFECT".... But to come to the truth of things in regards to the different faiths and believes.... SHARING ?. THAT IS WHAT YOU WANT.
I did my part as you asked, and I tried to share with you some of what I know about the Quran
(a lot of wrong thing said about it from the people of the churches (Benedict) and from others (Sinai desert etc.),
specially the parts when it brings S c i e n t i f i c I n f o r m a t i o n
to
prove that this book is not the work of Muhammad or any man
but the word of GOD,
and I supported everything with the words of the scientists (non of them Muslim) from the 21st century.
And I hopped that you FULFIL YOUR PART and
share with me
something of the scientific work from the Bible
{old/new}, since all those who believe in this book claims the Bible hold scientific things, and you did not bring any.
In the past, when I brought this question, none came back with an answer, and one example from the N.G forums,
when Joe Trusty (engineer- and church activist, Boston, MA, ) wanted to discuss the Bible "PRIVETELY !!!" through our mails,
but he vanished after I asked him a very simple and logical question!.
This was the question:
"Do you think that some of what been writeen in the Bible
{Genesis- 16:1 to 21:20} true or false?. Let me know."
I think he found the truth which he was blind to see it before, and he does not want to admitted !!!.
24:40 Or [they are] like darkness within AN UNFATHOMABLE SEA WHICH IS COVERED BY WAVES, UPON WHICH ARE WAVES, OVER WHICH ARE CLOUDS.
Darknesses, some of them upon others. When one puts out his hand [therein], he can hardly see it. And he to whom GOD has not granted light , for him there is no light.
That is the truth.
This question {abot Genesis} I will repeat it to again, wishing that one time I will get A TRUE AND HONEST ANSWER.
Only the truth can lead us to God . The false, for sure will leads to hell. "It shall not be forgiven Him (who said false against God), either in this age or the age to come......Jesus true words"
END OF QUOTE
*******************************-****************
INDIE'S- RESPONSE BEGINS HERE :
Hi Sam.
I agree with you that I do not answer the questions you pose, as you ask them.
You are right. I created this page entitled
"Sam & Indie's Bible-Koran Sharing".
Granted.
I am less scientifically educated than you seem to be.
So, I am not able to follow all of your science.
Since we seem to not be answering the actual questions we put to one another, I propose we look at why it is that we do not seem to be able to address the actual questions we each put to the other.
If you will permit, I will paste now, not all, but portions of something I wrote earlier. My goal is to understand why we do not seem to be on the same wavelength.
As you will recall, I searched on the web for a simple explanation of the kinds of text analysis that is done on the Koran.
The first pages I visited were too confusing for me.
Then I found the enotes page, at
http://w-ww.enotes.com/class-ical-medieval-criticism/kora-n---
It concludes by saying the following :
" Despite all such religious and secular avenues from which the Koran is approached, Muslim and Western analyses agree that the Koran is a beautiful, lyrical, and powerful work. "
The page explains the types od Koran analysis in these terms :
" Critical reception of the Koran can be divided roughly into 2 categories:
1.
M U S L I M exegesis ;
with distinction drawn between
- t r a d i t i o n a l or conservative interpretation,
- and the approach of m o d e r n i s t s to the Koran.
19th & 20th century Muslim exegesis of the Koran has been approached primarily from 3 viewpoints :
(i) natural history, also referred to as S c i e n t i f i c exegesis, in which attempts are made to prove that modern sciences are not in contradiction with the Koran ;
(ii) p h i l o l o g y, in which attempts are made to uncover the literal meaning of the Koran, the meaning it would have had in Muhammad's time;
(iii) and from the viewpoint of the day-to-day life of Muslims
(this approach is often referred to as p r a c t i c a l exegesis),
in which an effort is made to determine which aspects of modern daily life should be influenced by the Koran.
2.
W E S T E R N examination of the Koran has included
- histories of the text and its "author;"
- analysis of its form and style; and
- comparison with Jewish and Christian scripture.
It seems evident that you have the following approach :
-19th & 20th century natural history approach.
It seems evident that I have the 'Western' approach.
What are we each doing ?
You speak of scientific aspests.
I am drawn to discussing the socio-political situation of the 7th century.
Result ?
We seem to be talking "AT" one another, instead of "with" one another.
Jesus referred to mustard seeds, to wine jars, to walls of homes washed clean, to fish and bread, and grapes, and little children, he referred to tax collectors, fishermen, Jewish religious authorities who did not practice what they preached... He talked of becoming a new person. He talked of not stoning women, he ate with those who were not recognized members of the establishment....
I think of a text analysis as various sifters.
(You know that instrument with the tiny holes we put flour in?
We shake it and the fine flour falls through?)
I use various "sifter" on old texts :
- with one I separate out bits of history;
- with one I separate out bits of exhortation;
- with one I separate out bits of prayers;
- with one I separate out bits of culture....
I end up with a man, Jesus, who penetrated to heart of human beings
to say to them to love others as one would love one's self.
How do I translate that for myself, personally, today ?
It means, for me, a deep desire to want to roar :
- lets stop obsessing on wherther we
**go to heavent or hell
**get reborn as turtles
**get 24 virgins after we die
**become angels
**become gods that marry and create spirit children and create worlds for them
**go to purgatory
**roam various levels of a spirit world....
which I think is a p h e n o m i n a l waste of time.
It means for me :
- lets all ditch dark-age religious dogmatics;
- lets get a handle on our population growth and stunting;
- lets save every child from harm, now, today;
- lets protect our environment;
- lets create economies that are
** not determined by artificial borders and artificial religio-political systems
** that are determined by regional geography and natural ressources
** celebratory of ambient, though de-dogmatized, religious culture...
Even if I were to consider that literalists were right after all
(either conservative Christians who see the Bible as a
" dictation from God " , or conservative Muslims who se the
Koran as "dictation from God"),
even if I were to get up one morning and feel the literalists were
right after all,
it still does not change that
there are children in harm's way,
there is medicine for the sick,
there is water for the thirsty,
there is food for the hungry,
there is cloth for the naked
now
that could be ministered to if we all just made lovely little burnt offering
of our various dogmatic beliefs .
I am interested in taking an introductory course to Arab poetry.
I am interested in learning about the Arab language.
One more book of religion, right now, is not what attracts me.
I must end now.
I work in the morning.
Indie
.
Though you and conservative US Christendom believe in different books, your belief in the nature of revelation (as 'dictated' ) is one in the same.
I do not believe in the ' direct dictation' method of revelation.
I believe that Scripture is literature which reflects what men are able to say about divinity. Though human literature, I believe that God's goodness is revealled in that literature.
I agree with Doctor Tabor that it is desirable to have the imperfections and imprint of history in sacreed text.
It is in the examination of the imperfections in sacred text,
it is in the examination of the imprint of history in sacred text,
that I see r e v e a l e d the ruoh of God.
Sam, dear Sir, we have not been exchanging.
Rather, we have been 'talking a t each other'.
The e-notes web pages list the major themes of the Koran as :
- salvation and judgement; the nature of God; the concepts of free will and predestination; the relationship between reason and revelation; the role of prophets; universalism; religious duties, day-to-day living principles and rules.
I now understand that you, like Christians who interpret the Bible in a literal way, you view the Koran as a dictation from God.
I now understand the difference between your belief system and mine.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/24/08 13:47
A: .
T h u r s d a y, Jan 24th, 2008
Good morning Sam.
Before I ready for work, I wish to add a thought.
When I extended the invitation for Bible-Koran sharing, out of the topics covered by the Koran
(which th Enotes web page says are :
- salvation and judgement;
- the nature of God;
- the concepts of free will and predestination;
- the relationship between reason and revelation;
- the role of prophets;
- universalism;
- religious duties,
- day-to-day living principles and rules ,
I think I probably meant having one of the above explained to me,
plus,
understanding a little more than I already do, the socio-historical context of Muhammed's 7th century world in Saudi Arabia and the conditions in that land which produced a faith based on monotheism, similar to those that created Jewish monotheism or Christian monotheism.
I had no idea that I would be engaged in an effort to discuss evidence in verses that relate to scientic principles understood today but presaged in ancient writing,
I had NO idea that I would be engaged in a Socratic process whose o n l y possible conclusion can be to declare that
"the Koran and Islam are the only true religion,
Muhammed is the only prophet,
the Koran is the only Holy book" .
I had no knowledge of the approach you take to Koranic exegesis,
i.e., your modernist, natural history, scientific approach to Koranic exegesis.
I was ignorant of the existance of this approach.
I had done studies in theology in the 80s, decades ago, had not done any exegesis in y e a r s.
Because of Simcha's documentary, the Jesus Dynasty Blog, and Dr. Charlesworth's symposium in Jerusalem last week, I was drawn to pull out of the closet, my dusty exegesis knowledge.
I am now beginning to understand that Muslims in this forum do not engage much in contextual analysis of Koranic literature.
I am begining to understand that such contradicts with the position that the sayings of the man who spoke the Koran,
are "reportage" (to use Dr. Beckford's term),
or "direct dictations from God",
or (to use my own analogy) that only a literal reading is possible.
I wonder if we are not at the point of having to
"agree to disagree"?
I might enjoy learning about some of the specifics of certain verses in the Koran.
I enjoyed visiting the page on the Gulf Stream drift expedition in the summer of 69 and the discovery of waves in deep oceanic waters by the crew of the Ben Frankly submarine crew.
But I did not expect to engage in one such exchange after another, on Koranic verses that seem to presage later scientific discoveries.
Even the concept of "prophecy" is a single monolith.
There are nuances, various interpretations of what prophecy is.
The Gosple of Matthew contains elements about Jesus that other Gosples do not. The childhood of the Nazarene, for instances.
Why?
Before I answer, let me take a current example from a Larry King Live show that aired on CNN on Tuesday night I think. Toward the end of Mr. King's program, he asked 4 different panalists if Heath Ledger had any sibblings, brothers or siters.
Not one knew the answer.
My point ?
When a person is famous, we know about what they have done to become famous. We talk later about their early life.
The Gospel writer Matthew (as Dr. Beckford's YouTube "Who Wrote The Bible?" documentary explains, takes the Gosple of Marc and addes to it.
Marc, the first evangelist, writes from the context of the Roman persecutions in the city of Rome about Jesus.
Matthew, a Jew, comes along and says "Hold on a minute, let me tell you about Jewish literature and how Jesus was a product of that".
Matthew digs into ancient Jewish litterature and uses literary tools to show that Jesus was a Jew.
One of the evangelists even adds on a 2nd birth origine for Jesus, with the sole idea of linking Jesus to 5th BCE writings of Isaiah.
These writers were not just anybody.
These writers were masters of literature.
I find it strange that we, as a global society, all agree that the Greek writings, of the 3rd and 4th century BCE were incredible complexe,
but then,
suddenly,
when it comes to 1st century CE Bible writings, we don't see or suspect any literary complexity. Why is that?
The answer ? The majority of Christians have been kept in the dark about the complexity of their own writings.
The vast majority of Christians are still at a "Three Little Bears" reading level when it comes to the Bible.
The vast majority of Christians are still reading the Bible as if we were 6 year olds reading the story of Goldie Locks.
What has happened in Quebec, my part of Canada, is that French-Canadians have thrown the baby out with the bath water, so to speak.
Most of my compatriots under the age of 40, have never heard of the term "The Book of Genesis".
My compatriots know about the Bible, and they do not know they know about the Bible, through Walt Disney animated movies that quote from teh Old Testament, and the dozens of referrences to the New Testament in the Spiderman movies. That is how my compatriots learn about the Bible these days.
Buy a copy of the Bible?
Listen to the excellent YouTube documentary by Dr Beckford entitled "Who Wrote The Bible"?
My compatriots can't be bothered.
They do not suspect the complexity of the layers of editing and literary genius.
What is it that Bill Cosby says when he is exhorting young Blacks to develop complex literary skills ?
He says : "Why did little 6 year old girls march, and get stones thrown at them, and fight to be able to get an education? So you (young Black men) nuckleheads could refuse to learn to read and speak properly?"
In the same vein, I say to my compatriots : " Why throw away the Bible? It still contains the best moral code of all time. Learn about its literary complexity. Buy a copy of the Bible. Go on-line. Listen to Dr. Beckford's YouTube "Who Wrote The Bible" documentary.
Leave behind your Three Little Bears reading level of the Bible.
Become an advanced reader of Biblical literature.
I must stop here.
I have to get to word.
Indie
.
Name:sam •
Date: 01/25/08 2:12
A: Dear Indie,
You spent a lot of time writing , and repeating what you said before, and never brought the words of the Bible to discuss them, as I did when I brought the words of the Quran, and that is not analysis from your side.
The answer ? The majority of Christians have been kept in the dark about the complexity of their own writings.
The words of JESUS are very simple , even a child can understand them {Mary Ann Collins - NUN}. But some of the words which came in the Bible or by others in the Gospels are filled with contradictions and errors and cannot be trusted to be reliable {Bishop John S. Spong}.
If you want to prove that they are wrong, please bring your proof, and do not go around, because I did show the truth of the Quran, so please show me the truth in the Bible or the gospels.
Christianity is represented by its books, and so do Islam.
Islam has one book while and never changed for 1400 years, Christianity has 30+ books, not counting the one which were burned , and the personal letters of Paul, and the different work whci came from the different churches, and the laws which came by Moses and Jesus received new laws from the Popes and Bishops.
You said:
"The vast majority of Christians are still at a "Three Little Bears" reading level when it comes to the Bible.
----I do agree with you, because they cannot understand what they read, and they believe in what they could not understand!!!.
The vast majority of Christians are still reading the Bible as if we were 6 year olds reading the story of Goldie Locks."
----- If you put Jesus words & the story of His life, then all what you left with is stories like (Goldie locks), let us take the story of Hagar & Sarah, and the many other stories which filled with hate and false information.
The e-notes web pages , which you mentioned several time, is not a scientific site like NASA and the Hubble etc.
PLease bring their analysis about the Bible and the Gospels,
Good night. and God bless you Indie.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/27/08 15:57
A: .
Sunday, Jan 27th, 2008
Good morning Sam.
You wish for me to be specific regarding my words about biblical literary construction.
I will try. I am no longer very good at remembering where specific verses are to be founds. When I was younger, when I was taking my exegesis courses, I could remember more clearly where specific verses were. Now, my memory is dim. But I will try.
Here goes :
Go to the Jesus Dynasty Blog
http://jesusdynasty.c-om/blog/2008/01/
Click-,- under Archives,
January 2008
Scroll down to the letter dated Jan 24th.
The title is :
The Meyers/Magness Blog Statement on the Talpiot Tomb:
Some Observations
In this letter,
scroll down to point number 3
Find in that section of the letter, the term
"matthean theological gloss"
This video (Who Wrote The Bible) is split in 2 parts:
- part 1 : The Old Testament
- part 2 : The New Testament
As you watch, the little digital timer at the bottom of the screen ticks off the minutes. As you approch minute 59, Dr Beckford is finishing his presentation on the Old Testament.
As minute 60 ends, as minute number 61 begins the digital clock begins to say 1:01, and so on.
The section of the video from minute 59 to minute 1:06,
a seven minute section, Dr. Beckford is explaining about
the writing of the first Gospel, the Gospel of Mark.
(The letters of Paul were written before the Gospels.
But the first Gospel to be written is that of Mark.)
At minute 1: 02, Dr. B begins to speak of Matthew.
He explains that Matthew was Jew.
He explains that Matthew takes Mark's Gospel and changes parts and adds parts, to show the influence of Jewish litterature in Jesus' life,
because Jesus was a Jew.
This action of adding Jesus' Jewishness to Mark's Gospel, by Matthew in the Gospel of Matthew, is call the "Matthean theological gloss".
The Matthean theological gloss is all the additions, in Matthew, that refer to Old Testament literature.
Matthew adds, even invents texts that refer to Isaiah, so that Jesus' life with agree with Isaiah's writings.
The editings by Matthew are not little litterary twiks, here and there of Mark.
The editings by Matthew are scholarly referrences to the Old Testament.
The editings by Matthew are scholarly constructions of a master of Biblical literature.
What the common believer knows about Bible literature is based on a Three Little Bears, Goldie Locks level of reading.
Sam, you are right that the teachings of Jesus are simple to understand.
No one spoke more simply than did Jesus.
I am with you on that.
But, how Jesus' words are presented in the various Gospels, to the eye of the advanced reader of Biblical literature, reveals that the individuals who edited the Jesus stories, those individuals were master literary scholars.
I once took a course on Shakespeares' Romeo and Juliet.
I needed a master of Elizabethan literature to explain to me the meaning of the English lines that Shakespeare wrote.
Masters of literature have been around for thousands of years.
The oral traditions in Arab culture are a testament to the sophistication of literary construction even in oral tratidions.
The written traditions of Biblical text are sophisticated literary constructions.
If you listen to Dr. Beckford's wonderful video, you will be getting an introduction to the literary complexity of Biblical literature.
I spent four years of my life, in the late 70s and early 80s, doing such studies. Any university offers introductory courses to biblical exegesis.
Some universities have retired professors who give courses to retired individuals. One can inquire if such courses are available in one's area.
Without having to get up and go over to lug out my old, heavy, Jerusalem Bible, from memory, I can say that the story of Jesus childhood is not in all 4 Gospels. Why?
I invite the person who wants to understand to take an introductory course to Bible exegesis.
I can only say that these studies held my attention and fascination for four years of my life. I would not be who I am without those studies, and the drive I had to understand the texts.
I have been away from those studies for 25 years.
I am at a point in my life when I choose to no longer do the work of exegetical study. But, I can still read and follow what is written by specialists.
I can follow the content of the letters on the Jesus Dynasty Blog.
I do so out of interest.
But it is not the focus of my life at this point.
The focus of my life at this point, is to say to my fellow human being,
let us ditch the dark age of dogma and talk
about ways to make every part of this Globe a safe and calm place for a child to live.
As long as a single child is suffering in this world, I cannot stop my "crusade" to have men offer up the burnt offering of dogmatic belief.
Indie
.
Name:sam •
Date: 01/29/08 0:01
A: Dear Indie,
You said :
1- “Sam, you are right that the teachings of Jesus are simple to understand.
No one spoke more simply than did Jesus.”
Mary Ann Collins, the previous catholic NUN wrote:
A- “Ordinary people can understand the bible”...”simple enough for a child to understand,
B- but the bible is so rich that a brilliant scholar can spend a life time studying it and still not understand everything in it.”
---- ME & YOU & MARY we all agree on the part “A”. What we agree on, is the words of Jesus alone and separated from the rest of the crowd.
---- That means when we add the crowd (Paul, Mark, Matthew & the crowds around them, and the crowds who followed them), then we will get into “B”, and the trouble of understanding JESUS AND HIS MESSAGE, even by brilliant scholars.
2- And what you sais about: “ Matthew ADDS, even INVENTS texts that refer to Isaiah, so that Jesus' life with (TO AGREE) agree with Isaiah's writings”, is what make Jesus message far from representing the truth. A holy book cannot be the words of Paul and Matthew adding and subtracting words and ideas to agree to what they like. THAT IS WRONG
In answering your post on ( Jerusalem conference) ““Jesus stories about forgiveness, solicitude, humility, .....” , I wrote the following: I add : “LOVE...PEACE”
IF WE UNDERSTAND JESUS WORDS AND FOLLOW THEM, THAT IS WHEN WE WILL COME TO THE TRUTH FROM OUR ANALYSIS,
AND, IF WE UNDERSTAND AND FOLLOW GOD COMMANDMENTS, THAT IS WHEN MANKIND WILL BENEFIT MOST.
I read and recorded the following lines, which represent the same as what you said bout Matthew in ADDING & INVENTING & AGREEING, and to what I said about it as wrong things to do:
“For the most part, the Trinitarian church has silenced critical thought and dealt treacherously with anyone of open mind and free thought”
“It is only logical for people to argue after this, What else has the Church lied to us about? This unfortunately led to Higher Criticism of the bible in the 19th century which in turn, paved the way for evolutionism and Nietzsche's death of God. Is it not logical that to replace a polytheistic trinity, man would have to become gods themselves.
Albrecht Ritschl (1822-89) saw the Trinity doctrine as flagrantly Hellenistic. It had corrupted the Christian message by introducing an alien layer of metaphysical concepts, derived from the natural philosophy of the Greeks, and it had nothing to do with early Christianity.
Why should anyone want to add anything to the notion of God's oneness and uniqueness that can only dilute or nullify that oneness and uniqueness?
The word Trinity is not found in the Bible . . . It did not find a place formally in the theology of the church till the 4th century. -- The Illustrated Bible Dictionary
----- What came above is to prove that the church teaching are not Jesus teaching, and Bishop John S .Spong when he said , “THEY WERE MOVING THE CHRIST EXPERIENCE FAR BEYOND ITS ORIGINAL VOCABULARY.” is an approval to what came in the Bible dictionary.
3- “But, how Jesus' words are presented in the various Gospels, to the eye of the advanced reader of Biblical literature, reveals that the individuals who edited the Jesus stories, those individuals were master literary scholars.”
------ Jesus words are simple in the various gospels {there are no contradiction}, but those individual MASTERS who brought new formulas (Paul , the Romans, Matthew... & others), then after came the MASTERS who edited and changed the message, and created new formulas far from the truth, but acceptable to the eyes of the readers, all that led to ,”led to Higher Criticism of the bible in the 19th century “ and still going on in the 21st century !!!.
4- “to say to my fellow human being, let us ditch the dark age of dogma and talk”
---- In answering your post on ( Jerusalem conference) ““Jesus stories about forgiveness, solicitude, humility, .....” , I wrote the following: I add : “LOVE...PEACE”
IF WE UNDERSTAND JESUS WORDS AND FOLLOW THEM, THAT IS WHEN WE WILL COME TO THE TRUTH FROM OUR ANALYSIS,
AND, IF WE UNDERSTAND AND FOLLOW GOD COMMANDMENTS, THAT IS WHEN MANKIND WILL BENEFIT MOST.
Dear Indie,
Q------ What is the problem that we are facing in regard to the different faiths?.
I think that, the first problem, is the luck of understanding each other, that mean WE DO NOT respect and listen and giving our judgment in advance, all the wrong things put together, second, the luck of understanding the logic., and that when we understand that hate, killing and destruction are for good purpose, while those never served any good purpose in life. Did anyone ask himself this question: “Why I am fighting the others”, and if his brain gave him the answer, “FOR GOD, or for Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad”. Then I can said about him that he got a twisted brain and a sick brain. GOD of Abraham and the rest, never teaches hate, and killing, but love and peace.
Q----- How come that we had so much problem among the people who believe in THE SAME GOD.?
It started with Jews rejecting JESUS and falsifying His message, even they received a prophecy about His coming, and even with all the miracles which were witnessed by thousands of Jews and non-Jews. FIRST PROBLEM.
Ans it started again when the Jews and the Christians rejected Muhammad and falsified His message, and falsified the words of God , the words of the Quran, even it was not only prophesied by Jesus of His coming , but He was promised by Him.
SECOND PROBLEM.
John- 16 :7 But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, THE HELPER will not come to you; but if I go, I WILL SEND HIM TO YOU.
Two thousand years had passed and the promised HELPER did not show up according to the churches !!!, but we read and see in the news many from among the church people claiming themselves as prophets !!!.
So, my questions to you , “ while reading the gospels, did you ever question the words of Jesus about the Helper, and try to follow up?”...”do you think that the Helper already came, and if “ YES” bring his name?.
God bless you.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 02/19/08 3:42
A: .
*********
Sam wrote :
A: Dear Indie Anna,
You opened this post, "Title: Sam & Indie's Bible-Coran sharing • Date posted: 01/11/08 11:14 "
I brought some questions (Date: 01/28/08 19:01 ) wishing that you will answer them, but it seems that you never came back to the post which you originated in the first place !!!, you should not run away from the truth.
Finding the lost gospels, and then the TOMB are real things, and they will bring us much closer to the truth, and knowing that Jesus promised us with THE HELPER , after He is gone, is a part from that puzzle.
I don't know who is the coming Helper from the point of view of the Christians, but I do believe that the prophet Muhammad is the one who was sent by God to fulfill Jesus promise, and I can prove that.
Jesus came to fulfill a prophecy of the prophet "Isaiah". It is written in the Bible, and the Jews did not believe in Him, even with all the miracles that He performed in front of them!
And the same happen to the Helper {the prophet} who came after Jesus. The prophet who brought what Jesus mentioned about Him, "HE WILL DISCLOSE TO YOU WHAT IS TO COME", "HE WILL GLORIFY ME", "HE WILL GUIDE YOU INTO ALL THE TRUTH."
I would like to hear your thoughts about the PROMISED HELPER, not only as a Christian, but also as the only one that I know in this forum who has a university degree in theological studies.
Maybe vvk and others can join us to find the truth about the HELPER, because that is an important piece of the puzzle if we bring it to the picture might serve in bringing the Muslims and the Christian closer, and to bring peace among them.
"HEAR O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD."
"HEAR O CHRISTIANS & ISRAELIS ! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD."
---HEAR O ISRAELIS, CHRISTIAN MUSLIM !, THAT BOTH ISMAEL AND ISAAC ARE THE SON OF OUR FATHER ABRAHAM WHO CAME FROM DAVID, AND WE ALL THE SON OF OUR FATHER ADAM, AND WE ALL THE SON OF OUR FATHER WHO IS IN HEAVEN,THE ONE AND ONLY GOD.
If all the people could understand this fact, then for sure they will come to peace among themselves.
Q- 49:12 O you who have believed {THAT IS A MESSAGE TO ALL BELIEVERS}, avoid much negative assumption. Indeed, some assumption is sin. And do not spy or backbite each other. Would one of you like to eat the flesh of his brother when dead? You would detest it. And fear God; indeed God is accepting of repentance, and Merciful.
WE ARE ALL BROTHERS AND SISTERS IN THE SIGHT OF GOD, AND WE SHOULD NOT HARM EACH OTHER IN ANY WAY, THAT IS A SIN.
WHY SHOULD ANYONE KILL HIS BROTHER {BECAUSE OF NIGATIVE ASSUMPTION} ?
Looking for the truth is not a SIN, but it is an obligation, because without it we might be going in the wrong path and not knowing it.
While taking a brake, I read the following:
"And he who seeks finds"..."Or what man is there among you who, when his son ....asks for a fish, he will not give him a snake, will he?"..." In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, FOR THIS IS THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS."
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord.' will enter the kingdom of heaven, BUT HE WHO DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER [GOD] WHO IS IN HEAVEN will enter. from Matthew 7:8 to 21.
Quran- 4:124 And whoever does righteous deeds, whether male or female, while being a believer , those will enter paradise and will not be wronged.
4:125 And who is better in religion than one who SUBMITS HIMSELF TO GOD while being a doer of good AND FOLLOW THE RELIGION OF ABRAHAM, inclining toward truth? And God took Abraham as an intimate friend.
Q- 31:22 And whoever submits his face [i.e., self] to God while he is a doer of good - then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold. And to God will be the outcome of all matters.
God bless you.
********
Sam,
I understand that you feel that your faith is the latest, best dispensation.
But I would prefer is you simply said to me :
"Indie, I believe that the Helper, promised in the New Testatment, is Muhammed. "
I am open to such sharing.
But I cannot submit to your Socratic progression leading to your desired conclusion that Muhammed is the promised Helper of the New Testament.
Challening me to say that your beliefs are not my beliefs is not the 'spirit' of exchange I desire. Tell me outright that you believe that Mohammed is the Paraclet of the Gospel of John. But leading me down a long Socratic progression to the conclusion you design is not what I call 's h a r i n g'.
Are you afraid that Iam not interested in what you believe?
I assure you, I am.
But just tell me, openly, without all the challening and accusing me of 'running from the truth'.
Each nation has its épopée.
Each nation has its Moses.
Each nation has its River Jordan.
Each nation has its liberator from servitude.
Each nation has its unifier of tribes.
Each nation has its relationship with God.
For you to tell me that I must think that the Saudi story is the only true story of revelation is insulting to me.
Why is my genuine curiosity in the Saudi history from multi-tribalism to nation not enough for you?
Why are you not curious about the miracles of my nation?
Do you not know that God, in Divine Mercy visits all the children of the earth?
The miracle of the Jewish tradition, the Christian tradition, the Muslim tradition, is that they are examples of relationships between God and human. But Jesus said there were many other children of God.
To assume that one's onw history is the only good one, the best, the more superior history, is wrong.
I can rejoice and marvel in the particularities of the Judaic, or Islamic records of dealings with God. But God spoke to my people too.
In the history of Quebec, we have our own épopée, our River Jordan, our deportation, our exodus, our temple, our, dispersion, our defeats, our restorations. All nations have the same elements in their histories and relationship with God.
What makes me weep, is that there are so few people curious to want to discover the past of others.
This surprises me, because even when we meet a new friend at the café for tea, we find it natural to say : "So, tell me about yourself". Why is it, then, that we do not think to have the same curiosity about the 'spiritual' history of the other?
This never ceases to make me wonder.
It seems so obvious to me, to want to know about the literature and spiritual history of the other. Yet, we seem in such a hurry to want to 'preach' about our religion to the other.
In reality, if we only shared why we are awed by our native creeds, others would probably want to know more.
When you begin a post to me with "...you run away from the truth", the only thing I want to run away from is the 'controy' you seem to want to exercise over the conversation.
If you said : 'Indie, here are the reasons why I feel Mohammed is a Helper that followed Jesus', and you share with me how his words touch your being, I'll probably experience, along with you, the same awe.
But, when you say things such as ''.... run away from the truth...''', you only alianate the person you are addressing.
With sincere humility and genuine interest in the religion that is all important to your being.
Indie
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Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 02/22/08 10:47
A: .
---------------
Sam wrote :
When you said, " (1)For you to tell me that I must think that the Saudi story is the only true story of revelation is (2) insulting to me."
----Wake up. THE ISLAM IS THE TEACHING THAT CAME BY THE QURAN, AND IT IS NOT A SAUDI STORY {stop your lies}, AND IT IS NOT A STORY.
ON THE OTHER SIDE THE STORY OF THE DEVIL TAKING JESUS TO THE HIGHEST MOUNTAIN TO SHOW HIM THE KINGDOMS OF THE WORLD AND THEIR GLORY THAT IS A STORY AND A BAD ONE{THAT IS IF YOU KNOW THAT THIS MEANS A HUMILIATION TO JESUS, AND A WORD AGAINST GOD}
1- what I brought THROUGHOUT MY POSTS has nothing to do with the Saudi. You should know the history !!!, and the saudi just came as rulers of most of land of the arabian peninsula in recent years , First Saudi State (1744-1818)...Second Saudi State (1824-1891)...and the third (1900s to this date).
SO, WHEN YOU MENTION THE ISLAM RELIGION AND TEACHINGS AS A "SAUDI STORY".,First, that shows, that you do not know much about the history or the geography !.
Second, When I did ask about the HELPER, and that came by the words of Jesus is not an insult as you claim, but when you claim the teachings of Islam as Sadi teaching, that is a clear insult (2) , and it is just a big lie used by the Christians as many others claims, and they do try to switch the truth.
Did you forget, that you claimed before that Muhammad get his knowledge about the creation & the universe while He was in the SINAI DESERT !!!, while the truth is , Muhammad never been to SINAI, and what you claimed is just another big lie, and you think that you are good by switching the truth, and you try to tell that you are a fair and understanding person !!!.
A wise person, before he speaks, he should make sure that his words represents the truh, because when he brings false words "careless words" he will be responsible for them and he will be judged at the end.
BUT I (JESUS) TELL YOU THAT EVERY CARELESS WORD THAT PEOPLE SPEAK, THEY SHALL GIVE AN ACCOUNTING FOR IT IN THE DAY OF JUDGMENT.
Jesus is right, you should remember his word when you make careless statements {A statement is made from many words put together... so you will be judged for EVERY CARELESS WORD that you speak.
And you use " ASSUME....SUPERIOR HISTORY"
"To assume that one's onw history is the only good one, the best, the more superior history, is wrong."
I wonder if what you mentioned above has anything to do with the subject which we dealing with?. We are dealing with "Bible-Coran sharing ", and that means we bring both the Quran and the Bible into our discussions, and SHARE our both knowledge in regards to what they hold from truths, not to see who is superior, but to see what came in those books can be right and can be accepted when analyzed from the logical and the scientific point as they are the true message of God and represents his words.
Indie, You said, A- "What makes me weep, is that there are so few people curious to want to discover the past of others."
------ You should know the fact that most of the people are careless, and even sometimes the educated ones!!!. The "PAST", that means the history, and evreyone write his own history as great one, while the others history as ugly as they can make it. The only way to sort the right from the wrong is to put all the history on the table and use the logic in the search for the truth.
I question a Muslim who write something wrong about the others, and I do the same about the rest, but if a Christian or a Muslim write what is wrong about themselves then that can be right. for example, the statements from a Bishop writing the followings"
THE BIBLE FULL OF CONTRADICTIONS AND ERRORS..THE GOSPELS CANNOT BE TRUSTED TO BE RELIABLE. I do accept it as true as possible, but if a Muslim give such a statement then there can be some doubt about it.
B- "This surprises me, because even when we meet a new friend at the café for tea, we find it natural to say : "So, tell me about yourself". Why is it, then, that we do not think to have the same curiosity about the 'spiritual' history of the other? ."
----- As for me, I was always curious about the others beliefs , and not only about the Jews or the Christians , but also about the Hindus and the Buddhists, and I did my work in finding the truth about them by going to their own books, and not by listening to the opinions of the Muslims, and also about the old Indians tribes beliefs, in North America {which I do really admire their ways of practicing their beliefs as part of the nature of things}, as you know there are no holy books for them, but what they believe in , form respecting the nature, to protect it is the right way and it is by far a better way from those who had written books but they do not care about the world, but they do care only about the church and the mosque and the temple and its people.
Indie Anna, You are trying to defend the Christianity, the churches because you love them so much, but did you ever try to deffend Jesus from what the churches and the other people done from harm to Him and to His message?.
How can you accept the trinity and that Jesus is God from the Romans, and refuse to accept Jesus true words "NO ONEIS GOOD EXCEPT GOD ALONE. And what about the God commandments, "YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER gods BEFORE ME".
MY QUESTION TO YOU:
1- DO YOU BELIEVE THAT JESUS IS GOD AND A PART (PERSON) OF GOD?
2- DID JESUS SAY THAT HE IS GOD? AND WHERE IT IS WRITTEN.
3- DID JESUS AND GOD THEY DID NOT TELL US THE TRUTH?.
God bless you.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 02/22/08 10:57
A: .
Sam wrote :
"You should know the fact that most of the people are careless, and even sometimes the educated ones!!!. The "PAST", that means the history, and evreyone write his own history as great one, while the others history as ugly as they can make it. The only way to sort the right from the wrong is to put all the history on the table and use the logic in the search for the truth."
Dear Sam,
I agree with you. I agree that real historians, historians worth their salt, are redoing history and including the Muslim contributions to the development of civilisation in the Middle Ages. I am glad for this.
The historian who first taught me that it is right to do this was a half blind, Jesuit Priest, who walked with a cane, who smilled from morning to night and who laughed like a joyful 10 year old boy.
Indie
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Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 02/22/08 11:07
A: A couple of corrections :
Dear Sam,
If I wrote somewhere that I thought that Muhammed was once in the Sinai Desert, I was wrong to write that. I have never thought that.
I was in the Sinai Desert.
I was awe by the Sinai Desert.
I share with this forum how I sat under the stars with two Palestinians.
Two Palestinians made tea for me in the Sinai Desert.
They shared with me their laughter.
They shared with me their jokes.
One of them sang to me and gave me a gift his father had given him.
To this day, I call this gift my 'Tablet From Sinai'.
One of them taught me about classical Arabic.
They taught me about the Palestinian sense of humour.
They never greeted me without a smile on their faces.
They never greeted me with any other words but 'Hello Little One'.
Their gentleness, their Palestinian gentleness has always stayed in my heart. No acts of any kind have been able to undo my love for the Palestinian people. For 28 years, I have kept my memory of the Palestinian people intact. For 28 years, I have been officially pro-Palestinian because of how the Palestinians treated me when I was in the Middle East. Nothing has undone my impression of the Palestinian People. Not even you.
Indie
.
Indie
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Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 02/22/08 11:15
A: .
Dear Sam,
When I go to church, it is because I know that the priest is educated and can speak intelligently about the Scriptures.
When I go to church, I stand and recite with the assembled, the prayer "Our Father".
When I go to church, I sit and do not recite with the assembled the "Apostles Creed".
I would not believe that Jesus is a member of a quatuor, with at its head an Alian from another planet.
When I go to church, I am like the poor Latin American woman, who replied to the visiting official from Rome; the official said to her :
- "Woman, do you not know that I am the Church!
She replied :
- "Sir, you are in no way the Church. We, the people, are the Church.
Indie
.
Indie
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Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 02/22/08 11:18
A: .
Dear Sam,
If we stopped for a moment and were quiet, and closed our eyes, and prayed for a moment, we'd probably find that our beliefs are more similar than they are different.
Peace
Indie
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Name:sam •
Date: 04/16/08 0:20
A: Hi Indie Anna,
Your last post, mentioned the following.
"If we stopped for a moment and were quiet, and closed our eyes, and prayed for a moment, we'd probably find that our beliefs are more similar than they are different."
That is a good wish , and an excellent thoughts, and I do appreciate that, but in reality the truth tells us different.
No matter how long we stoped, and quiet we became, and if we close our eyes and prayed all days and nights we will find that our beliefs more different than similar. And you might ask WHY ?.
First, because no one ever tried to accept the other beliefs, and they created a great wall from their created teaching to devide themselves from the others, a wall higher and longer than the wall of China.
Second, The Muslim and Jews beliefs are somehow similar when it comes to GOD as one God, but the Jews do not accept Jesus and Muhammad as prophets, while the Muslims do believe in Moses and Jesus and all the rest, and here the similarity vanished.
Third, The Christian believe in Jesus as God {part of God is God too}, and the Jews believe that Jesus is a false prophet and they will not accept Him no matter what we wish and how much we pray, and the Muslims believe in Him as a prophet, but the Christian will never ever accept Him as a prophet no matter how much we wish or pray. THAT IS THE TRUTH.
The Muslims accept the others prophet, but any of the Jews or the Christians will accpet the Muslim prophet ?. I don't think that those who built their kingdoms and wealth on earth will let go, not even if it was for the truth or God .
Today, the Pope visit America, for the catholics he is a holy man, and holiest man on earth !!!. and so all the other Popes before him, no matter how bad they are !!!.
[go to " Mary Ann Collins - site" and read the history of many popes.
Is the word "HOLY" suppose to be kept for God and HIS words only ?. Holy Spirit & Holy Books ?.
When the Christian read the following from the gospels:
- "This is TRULY THE PROPHET who is to come into this world."
- "When you lift up THE SON OF MAN, then you will know THAT I AM HE."
- "you call Me TEACHER AND LORD; and you are right, for SO I AM."
- ''THIS IS THE PROPHET JESUS from Nazareth of Galilee."
- "I CAN DO NOTHING ON MY OWN INITIATIVE."
And if they accept the words of Jesus as the words of the truth, and accept Him as the son of man, and a teacher and a prophet, then, and only then the two faiths , Islam & Christianity will come to be closer in their faiths.
