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Name: Pete •
Title: Slandering Jesus •
Date posted: 11/04/07 10:41
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Q: A book by Dr. Erwin Lutzer called 'Slandering Jesus' has it's first LIE this discovery.
To assert that finding Jesus bones would not affect Christianity is really absurd-it's one of the foundations of the faith.
Kind regards,
Pete
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Name: MCS •
Date: 11/04/07 11:23 |
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A: So. Does it means that we should blind ourselves and not try to do the DNA tests to the bones ? Why ?
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Name: Panluna •
Date: 11/04/07 18:09 |
A: MC S,
The bones were tested and retested.So was the fragment of cloth believed to be the burial shroud found in the ossuary.
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Name: Panluna •
Date: 11/04/07 18:14 |
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A: The physical ressurection of Jesus was disproved because his remains were found in his ossuary.That doesn't mean that you can't believe his teachings or study related material written by many people for 2000 years.There has been alot of controversy over the most famous death in history and alot of conjectures.But Jesus's words are what is important.He studied the Kabbalah and Metaphysics and his followers in his lifetime believed in him.
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Name: MCS •
Date: 11/05/07 0:36 |
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A: Panluna, Please... I am not talking about the fragmented bones that (recently) Mr. Simcha Jacobovici took from the Jesus ossuarys and send to DNA tests. I am talkink about the bones that in 1980 were found in the Talpiot Tomb and buried in another cemetary. Is About That bones I am talking about when I say that doing the DNA tests to the bones would add a lot (an fundamental) statics information that would help to define if The Tomb belongs to the Jesus Crist family or to another Jesus. I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT RELLIGION or god or any kind of faith. I am talking about mathematic and statistics. I am amazed why anybody seems to be trying to find that bones and do DNA tests. WHY NOT ? Or Is it not true that that bones said to be taken from the ossuarys in 1980 really exists ? (english is not my native language, so sorry...)
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Name: Panluna •
Date: 11/05/07 18:21 |
A: MCS,
The bones were reburied according to Jewish custom in a cemetary in 1980.The fragments that were tested several times were found in the ossuary itself.When the discovery was made in 1980 it should have been made public but for some reason it remained a secret until recently.Maybe someone was afraid of reprisals.I felt that instead of an apartment building --IF everything had been handled differently in 1980 --that all the branches of the Christian religion could have gotten together and bought the land from Isreal and establish a shrine for Christians to make a pilgramage to.But hindsight gives us 20/20 vision.I believe the bones are marked by the grave site for citizens of antiquity and if I'm ever lucky enough to visit isreal I might place a plant called the Star of Bethleham on the grave.It 's a native flora.There has been alot excavation going on and there are many archaeological sites and discoveries that validate the existance of the people from the Bible.I have no idea if they plan to test the bones in the grave.I'm not even sure what the Jewish burial customs are.Just to think that Jesus a poor Jewish Rabbi influenced the world like he did for the past 2000 years and he's still controversial.May they rest in peace.
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Name: sam •
Date: 11/05/07 22:13 |
A: Dear Panluna,
When you said this: "The physical ressurection of Jesus was disproved because his remains were found in his ossuary.That doesn't mean that you can't believe his teachings or study related material " , you brought the truth.
Jesus words are all the truth that one needs, and His miracles prove a lot about his live from the biginning to the end. We do not need Paul or the Romans or the popes etc., to tell us who is Jesus is and what happen to Him. Here what was witnessed by his followers to be written later on:
L- 7:22 22 and He answered and said to them, “Go and report to John what you have seen and heard: the blind receive sight, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, THE DEAD ARE RAISED UP.
L- 24:31 Then their eyes were opened and they recognized Him; and HE VANISHED from their sight.
Mat- 17:2 And HE WAS TRANSFIGURED before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light.
THE DEAD ARE RAISED UP....HE VANISHED ....HE WAS TRANSFIGURED ,
All those miracles were done in front of many of His followers and His apostles, and those are facts, but we should understand HIS WORDS when He said, “I CAN DO NOTHING ON MY OWN INITIATIVE” and “BUT THE WILL OF HIM WHO SENT ME.” Even His word is not His but, “THE WORD WHICH YOU HEAR IS NOT MINE, BUT THE FATHER’S (GOD) WHO SENT ME.”
Why the power which God gave to Jesus, from raising the dead to vanishing to transfigure Himself it did stop when the Roman soldiers came to arrest Him and to crusify Him ?, [God knows what is in the people heart]. God will not let people harm or hurt or kill HIS messenger. The history tells us that God saved many other prophets, one example is the saving of Moses and His people by great miracle, and we should not forget the saving of the son of Abraham.
So I wonder why the people cannot see or accept the saving of Jesus by the miracle that God gave Him already ?.
And I wonder how God can accept that His son be humiliated and crucified by His enemies?, or how can God [if Jesus is God] let the people catch him and put Him on the cross like criminal?, Is it for the people sake?!!!.
Jesus never mentioned himsel as God, So who make of Him God?, many stories in the Gospels were created later on and have no logic in them {the follen stars on earth etc.}.
The Quran mentioned that Jesus was saved, which prove that God always with Him andprotecting Him, and this another great miracle, but the christian will not accept it [as the Jews they did not accept Jesus or His teaching] , but they rather accept the words of Paul and the Romans and the false stories which been created by the people after time.
The Discoveries of the many gospels proves a lot of thing were taught wrong for two thousand years, then came the discovery of Jesus tomb to prove again what been taught about Jesus for two thousand years were wrong too. All that prove that THE GOSPELS CANNOT BE TRUSTED TO BE RELIABLE as the Bishop John S. Spong wrote.
The Quran said:
4:157 And for their saying, "indeed, we have killed the Messiah, JESUS, the son of Mary, THE MESSENGER OF GOD." And they did not kill Him, nor did they crucify Him; but [another] was made TO RESEMBLE HIM to them *. And indeed, those who DIFFER OVER IT are IN DOUBT about it **. THEY HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF IT EXCEPT THE FOLLOWING OF ASSUMPTION ***. And THEY DID NOT KILL HIM, FOR CERTAIN ****.
* TO RESEMBLE HIM [QURAN]..... HE VANISHED ....HE WAS TRANSFIGURED [GOSPELS].
** DIFFER OVER IT are IN DOUBT .... The discovery of the tomb of Jesus prove that.
*** THEY HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF IT EXCEPT THE FOLLOWING OF ASSUMPTION .... That is the truth, all what is going around today, to figure out a way to keep their wrong teaching which went for two thousanf years is creating more stories and following more assumption.
**** And THEY DID NOT KILL HIM, FOR CERTAIN .... I think God knows more than Paul and the Romans and the popes, and that is for sure, I hope you and the others agree to that.
God bless you.
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Name: Panluna •
Date: 11/06/07 17:22 |
A: Sam,
I would have been a "Doubting Thomas" if I had not had my supernatural experiances.I still don't have all my answers yet but I am writting my book.Maybe searching within will give me the insight I need.
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Name: MCS •
Date: 11/09/07 20:21 |
A: Panluna:
First of all, thanks for the answer you posted at 11/5/2007. Beginning from the last line of your message (May they rest in peace), from my point of view bones are bones and nothing more. DNA testing the reburied bones will not cause any kind of suffering or offence to the dead people.
Let me repeat myself. I am not talking about religion, or god or faith or soul nor even about any mystical implications of all the talpiot tombs. I am only looking for some direct (…and please objective…) information such as:
1) Can the bones (maybe the bones that belonged to Jesus Christ and is family) be found again ?
2) The localization of the cemetary that in 1980 the bones (supposing that they really exist – and by this time I confess I’m not sure anymore that they does exists) were reburied is known by someone ?
3) Who Knows where this cemetery is placed ?
4) When the bones were reburied, did the people (in 1980) put some identification (I don’t mean the names, but from the Tomb number “yyy” and ossuary nº “xxx”) ?
5) If is it possible identifying the reburied bones in 2007, why nobody seems to try to do DNA tests to these bones ? It could bring light to many questions and doubts, such as if the the “son of jesus” is Mariamne son too. Is the other mary is te Jesus mother and so on. If the suspicions confirm, it would take the probalities from 600 to millions. If not confirmed, reduce drastically.
6) WHY NOBODY SEEMS TO BE DOING THESE FUNDAMENTAL INVESTIGATION ?
I am not again people talking about religion, god or whatever, but the main point in these Forum is try to be sure if that Talpiot Tomb, belonged to The Jesus Christ family or not.
People will always believe in gods and the kind of things (… until the dead can be controlled by the science – maybe 500 or 2000 or 3000 years from today. Who Knows ?) and it’s not a problem for me, but I am only interested at the archeological aspects.
Was that the Jesus Crist Tomb ?
Thanks
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Name: Panluna •
Date: 11/10/07 16:21 |
A: I'm not an authority or a member of the team but I would say "YES" to all your questions on your previous and the last one would be with an explaination.Anyone testing the bones would need IAA approval,provided that cremation is not part of the current Jewish burial custom.If you are interested you would have to do your own investigation and cut through alot of international red-tape to get your answer.
Good luck MCS....let me know what you find.I'm satisfied with the results from the DNA testing from the residue and bone fragments in the ossuaries.They didn't need giant samples or the complete skeletons to prove anything just the epigrams and residue.
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Name: MCS •
Date: 11/10/07 18:23 |
A: Panluna : Tanks again.
Now we are getting closer to the point (...for me…) that is how to take the probalities to a higher degree (much more than 600/1 - and lets not forget that this 600/1 consider that Mary Magdalene and Mariamne are the same person) or to reduce drastically the chance that the Talpiot Tomb is the Jesus Crhist family one. That’s why I insist DNA testing that bones (the ones reburied in 1980) is crucial.
About some things you said:
“Anyone testing the bones would need IAA approval, provided that cremation is not part of the current Jewish burial custom”.
I believe it too. And a lot of pression against these tests may happen. I think most of the Christians have fear of doubting their believes and all that.
“If you are interested you would have to do your own investigation and cut through a lot of international red-tape to get your answer”
Impossible. I live thousands of Kmts from Jerusalem and think this should be made by professionals. Archeologists, historians and scientists. Why not by the Simcha team or any other ?
“I'm satisfied with the results from the DNA testing from the residue and bone fragments in the ossuaries. They didn't need giant samples or the complete skeletons to prove anything just the epigrams and residue”
Of course the tests already done have enormous importance, but “satisfied” is a little too much.
As far as I Know, only the fragments found in two ossuaries could be tested. To be sure about being the reburied bones from sons and brothers and daughters, it can only be brought to the light, testing these other bones (the reburied in 1980 ones).
I’m not a religious one, but as Simcha already said. Discovering Julio Cesar Tomb would be an enourmous and spetacular news.
So, just think leaving Julio Cesar (…or Elvis…) bones resting in some unknown place as if it was some “not important trash” would be amazing and too much strange.
Now, why forget the most famous (and maybe important) occidental man bones in history, in some not identified cemetery, and go to the cinema ?
Seems to me unacceptable that Simcha didn’t told on is documentary where is this cemetery placed. I begin to doubt of the existence of that cemetery. Who Knows ?
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Name: Panluna •
Date: 11/11/07 14:56 |
A: MCS,
Julius Ceasar was cremated on a funeral pyre.And the IAA knows where the cemetary is.
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Name: MCS •
Date: 11/11/07 19:13 |
A: Julius Ceasar is not the point. IAA Knowing the cemetary place is not enough. I don't know the place. You don't know, I don't even know who knows and I believe it should be public. Why not ?
I sounds like somebody saying "Well, lets all be stisfyied with IAA Knowing and from now on we just have to believe on IAA (or whoever). Just forget the proves" I'm trying to believe te bones does really exists and that they belonged to Jesus Christ family , but only testing DNA of the reburried bones will conclude if they are (or aren't) reletives. Father os Jesus, Moter of Jesus, Son of Jesus and so on. I saw the movie and read the book and there's nothing there that could eliminate the doubts. Come On !!!
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Name: Panluna •
Date: 11/12/07 16:07 |
A: MCS,
Isreal has several cemetaries.I'm not sure who to contact to get the exact location of the grave site.If it was me I would have wandered around the country until I found it.If you do want written proof of Mary.Jesus and Judah's relationship read the gospel of Mary Magdalene or THE EXPECTED ONE by Kathleen McGowan.It's a novel that is well researched for 25 years and is based on the Marian legends and her gospel.
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Name: MCS •
Date: 11/12/07 19:20 |
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A: Writen proof ? The bones (if they really exists) are material proof. That can be the real proof. Writen is never that strong, since a human like you and me wrote. But I'm not questioning bout Jesus having a baby or not. (it's not the point) The point is "Are the reburried bones (in 1980) from people close to Jesus such as son, mother, etc... ?"
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Name: Panluna •
Date: 11/13/07 13:33 |
A: MCS,
As far as I know the bones in question are from the Talpiot tomb.The written stories are important especially anything written by Jesus or his disciples.If it wasn't for the Old and New Testaments or the many myths and legends handed down for centuries there would be no records of humankinds' history.Modern searches for the truth originated with ancient tales.
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Name: Panluna •
Date: 11/13/07 14:13 |
A: MCS,
I misread your question.As far as I know his family was buried with him first in the ossuaries in the tomb and then in the cemetary in 1980.If you scroll down to the bottom of the page you will find a way to contact the people who offer this website.I contacted them once before and I got an answer.
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Name: MCS •
Date: 11/13/07 22:32 |
A: Hi Panluna,
I'm trying to be sure the Talpiot Tomb is the Jesus (Christ not any other one) family.
But (I don't think you'll deny...) there's a possibility that after rediscovering the cemetary where (in 1980) the bones were reburied, taking those bones to a laboratory and doing the DNA tests, the results became disapointment. (Do You ignore this possibility ???)
Lets just imagine that the results come to show that the bones at the Judah ossuary prove that that he's not Mariamne's son. Or that the bones at Jesus ossuary comes to prove that none of the two Marys is his mother (no DNA connection...).
Although I tend to think the results would probably confirm the movie theory (and so increase dramatically the statistic possibility) the only way to be sure is doing these tests.
Sorry if I keep on repeating myself on and on, but if the material to be tested does really exist (great chace they do exist) Why no to try ? Wake up The schoolars...
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Name: Panluna •
Date: 11/14/07 15:02 |
A: MCS,
I got bad news for you.In 1980 when the bones were first discovered they had no idea who they were.They were buried with other people .No way to retrieve or identify.My information is from the sponsors of this website whom I contacted yesterday.I guess it's the end of the road.All we have is what's been written.Remember his legacy is in his words.
I would have visited their graves if I was lucky enough to go to Isreal.
Now may they rest in peace?
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Name: MCS •
Date: 11/18/07 16:38 |
A: If you put yourself in 1980, reburing bones that you don't know whose tis bones can be. It would be logical (if nothing...) put them all together and catalogue them. Even if you don't do it idividually. The information you got may really be true, but would IAA be so not organized ? So dispersive ? Could the Christians have already done pressure to avoid further investigations that could prove Jesus didn't went to the sky wit his body and all ? That he was just (maybe) a nice guy that was assassinated. (after all death penalty is nothing more than pure assassination) ? If this investigation stops here there'll still be space to doubt. Some people believe the Talpiot was the Jesus Tomb and others don't.
From my point of view, there's a lot of proballities, but without identifying and DNA testing those bones (The Christians have fear to have doubts at last...) there's no way to be sure..
I have no interest on relligious or mystical aspects on this case. It's just a chance to know better that Jesus was a human like you and me. If It's not much, it's much more than being god. Because it's phisical. God is just an imagination thing.
It's a pity if we can't go on further investigation.
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Name: Panluna •
Date: 11/18/07 17:01 |
A: MCS,
The team called in by the IAA in 1980 had only three days to investigate,catalogue,take pictures and make drawings of the inside of the tomb.When the investigation started in 2004(?) it was caused by the discovery of the James ossuary--the one stolen from the Talpiot tomb site and goes on from there with two years of following records and the trail that led them to the warehouse.They really didn't have anyone on the 1980 team who could read the epigrams so no one paid any attention to the ossuaries or their contents.I can't say if there is a papertrail on file identifying the whereabouts of the bones taken from the limestone coffins.No body took the time to take a closer look until Simcha started his quest.
To me the biggest blunder in the history of Bible archaeology occured in 1980 when there wasn't enough time to completely examine the tombs in the area---or was it fate and progress that contributed towards hiding the truth?The tomb region could have been declared a World Heritage site but then Isreal has a long history filled with many historical sites.
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Name: MCS •
Date: 11/19/07 1:44 |
A: Ok Panluna.
1) Is it possible that the bones were at that time (1980) treated as if they were not much more than some kind of trash by the IAA?
- Yes.
I have to agree that it is not impossible, although you may as well agree it’s not the kind of proceed we’d expect from the IAA. Even considering they never imagined some possible connection between that tomb and Jesus Christ. The people working at the place in 1980 were archeologists and not people working on some kind o trash service.
Although possible, it’s a little bit strange…
2) They only had 3 days to do the job because of the need to continue the buildings construction?
- Yes again.
At the local place of the Tomb, Yes.
But (as far as I remember from the Discovery movie… and from the book I read) They took the bones to some other place (the IAA ? – I don’t remember the exact place) organized, and then (only then) drove them to the cemetery where they should be today.
The 3 days was the time limit to work at the Tomb. Not to rebury the bones. It’s the natural way I believe IAA would work on to any bones from whatever site. No need to be Jesus Christ for them (from IAA) adopting similar proceed.
A little organization and some scientific proceed is what I expect from Institutions such as the IAA on ANY of the (thousands maybe…) archeological sites they have to deal.
3) As you already said, the Christians may as well believe the ressurection of Jesus and his soul (not his body…) ascending to the sky, if it became proved that Jesus bones are still around. So don’t think I should be going against Christians or whoever. I’m too far from that. I’m just curious one and searching logical points.
IT’S ASTONISHING that people accept (without checking) some information like: “let’s forget this bones they can't be found”. If is true what the movie said (maybe it’s just no true. Who knows ???) about the existence of that bones in 1980. I don’t deny the possibility that bones are missed forever. But I think this should be severely checked. This kind of proceed from team indicated by the IAA, is (at least…) very, very, very, not professional.
I’m really a skeptical one. And specially about this information that it’s no possible find and identify that bones again. Men already went to the moon. Could be rediscovering those bones so impossible? I’m not sure. Far from that. Thanks.
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Name: Panluna •
Date: 11/19/07 17:06 |
A: MCS,
The only thing missing is the paperwork showing which cemetary in which moshav the bones were brought to.And I feel that if the 1980 team had more time to establish identities and examine the tombs that the results and plan of action would have been different.The results would have been that the world would have been informed about the discovery in 1980.Fate played it's hand in this matter when the truth was at a crossroad and progress became more important than history.Now they are buried in an unknown grave thus sparking another controversy.And there was enough evidence in the ossuaries to prove who they were.
I hope I was some help to you and you are welcome.
Any more questions click on and address them to the Contact Us at the bottom of the page with the credits.Or read what the professionals on the team contributed to this website.
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Name: Anchorite •
Date: 02/02/08 2:06 |
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A: Bones are not thoughts. He didn't come to leave calcium.
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