Name:sam •
Title: THE QURAN OR THE BIBLE. •
Date posted: 08/25/12 16:24
Q: The Quran or the Bible , which is God’s word ?.
This is from a debate between Muslim scholar Ahmad Deedat from South Africa and Dr. Anis Shorrosh a Christian, Palestinian scholar.
Dr. Shorrosh asked for this second debate with Deedat.
This debate sheds the light on both the Quran & the Bible, and gave a good idea to what is right and what is not in both books according to each debater .
Watching this debate, I did agree to what Mr. Deedat came with from proofs to bring the truth, and after I will see what Dr. Shorrosh came with.
Dr. Shorrosh, wrote many articles, among them some about the Palestinians, and while he feel sorry for them living so long under occupation and in camps, also he believe that the Israelis has the right not only to the land of Palestine but to all the land from the Nile to the Euphrates, and that is according to what came in the holy Bible .
So, Mr. Deedat had to show Dr. Shorrosh that, 1- not only the Bible is not the words of God but, 2- what God of the Bible done to the Palestinians, and 3- what the Bible came with from horrible stories which is not suitable to be in a holy book, and not appropriate to represent God.
1- The word ‘Bible’ never mentioned in the Bible. Bible just means a ‘Book’, and the holy Bible words on the cover of the book is done by man, [man and not God], and the Bible never came with anything that shows the author is God.
— The word ‘Quran’ been mentioned [68 times] in the Quran. And mentioned that it is from God the Merciful. Q-55:1/2 THE MOST MERCIFUL , TAUGHT THE QURAN.
2- The Palestinians in the Bible:
Judges 3:31 And after him was Shamgar the son of Anath, which slew of the Philistines six hundred men with an ox goad: and he also delivered Israel.
An ‘ox goad’ is a wooden stick with a metal spike at one end, and used to kick the animal in the back .
Shamgar , one Jewish man kills 600 men with a stick . What a lie.
After Shamgar came Samson:
Judges 15:15 And he found a new jawbone of an ass, and put forth his hand, and took it, and slew a thousand men [Philistines ] therewith.
- 600 killed by an ‘ox goad’ , 1000 killed by an ‘ass jawbone’ & a fresh one, what is next ?
Judges 16:27 Now the house* was full of men and women; and all the lords of the Philistines were there; and about three thousand men and women were on the roof, looking on while Samson made sport.
Judges 16:30 ...........and the house came down on the chiefs and on all the people who were in it. So the dead whom he sent to destruction by his death were more than all those on whom he had sent destruction in his life.
Another big lie .
* clearly it say a ‘house...looking on’, not an arena or a stadium.
Questions : how can 3000 men & women on the roof can watch Samson, while he is inside the house?.
How many men & women inside the house ?, the writer never mentioned, is the house of one big room or many rooms?, but let me guess, what about around 2000 inside that big house, and by leaving room in the middle for Samson to bring his show of sport.
{This is a big lie, and from such lies ‘Hollywood’ came to create films as ‘RAMBO 3’ who single- handed kills thousands of Russian soldiers .}
Judges 15:4 So Samson went and got three hundred foxes and some sticks of fire-wood; and he put the foxes tail to tail with a stick between every two tails;....
- 300 foxes , and the foxes co-operated with him and stood still even when he put their tails on fire , from the first two foxes to the last .
Then, what happen?
Judges 15:5 Then firing the sticks, he let the foxes loose among the uncut grain of the Philistines, and all the corded stems as well as the living grain and the vine-gardens and the olives went up in flames.
- Then firing the sticks, he left the foxes loose !!!!. Question: how much time it take between putting the first on fire and the last, logically, can all the foxes wait until the last pair put on fire ?.
Anyone with a working brain will know that is a lie.
- Also, I think that is an ARSON act done in the name of the God of Israel, and God is not a part of that horrible crime if it did happen.
- Anis Shorrosh he sought that was OK , so, In 2008 he was arrested by Daphne City, Alabama police for arson.[wikipedia]
The story of Amnon and his sister Tamar:
2Samuel 13:11 ....He [Amnon] put his arms round her and said, come to bed my sister....
13:14 .....he took her by force, and had connection with her....
- Amnon raping his own sister. A rape story in the book of God .
The story of David:
2Samuel 22:8 Then the earth was moved with a violent shock; the bases of heaven were moved and shaking, because he was angry.
[That was the angry God]
22:9 There went up a smoke from his nose, and a fire of destruction from his mouth: coals were lighted by it.
What a picture!, the Bible is mocking God . He is like the Chinese dragon. They are insulting God and making mockery of Him.
Penis instead of Shekel:
1Samuel 18:27 So David and his men got up and went, and put to death two hundred of the Philistines; and David took their private parts and gave the full number of them to the king, so that he might be the king's son-in-law. And Saul gave him his daughter Michal for his wife.
Here we go again. 200 Philistines killed , and for what?, to buy a wife for the Jewish man David.
After counting them , what Saul done with the 200 parts?.
Now, God’s laws in the holy Bible:
Numbers 31:15 And Moses said to them, Why have you kept all the women safe?
31:17 So now put every male child to death, and every woman who has had sex relations with a man.
31:18 But all the female children who have had no sex relations with men, you may keep for yourselves.
After killing all the men and women and the male children, Moses asked his army to do a test on the female children to see if they are virgin or not !!!, and only the virgin girls will be saved to be given for his men, for what ?.
31:21/22 .....This is the rule of the law which the Lord has given to Moses:
But gold and silver and brass and iron and tin and lead,......
31:32 Now the beasts taken, in addition to what the fighting-men took for themselves, were ...
675000 sheep — 72000 oxen — 61000 asses ---- 32000 persons
31:35 And thirty-two thousand persons, that is, women who had never had sex relations with a man. {the virgin girls}
Question: If Moses saved 32000 virgin girls, then how many men [fathers], and women [mothers],and boys Moses and his army kills ?
31:37 Of which the Lord's part was ......
675 sheep ----72 oxen ---- 61 asses ---- 32 persons
So their God has a fair share of the war bounty, and what a mockery ....
Now, God shave!!!.
Isaiah 7:20 In that day will the Lord take away the hair of the head and of the feet, as well as the hair of the face, with a blade got for a price from the other side of the River; even with the king of Assyria.
The Lord God has to go and buy a blade to shave !!!, was it the first time that He shaved?.
Ending this post, lets compare the God of the Bible who teaches His follower to do all the horrible crimes as been recorded in those books, with what the God of the Quran teaches His followers, and the Quran say:
Q- 5:32 .... WE decreed upon the children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption done in the land, it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one, it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And Our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, even after that, throughout the land, were transgressors.
God telling us that His messengers [ all the prophet , from Abraham to Jesus] were given the message that killing is totally forbidden,[ and they been supported by proofs , and that was the many miracle done by them ] , unless for those who kills, and those who done corruption in the land. And God telling us what happen after, and that is what we read in the Bible.
In my second post I will bring what Dr. Anis Shorrosh came with about the Quran
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 08/26/12 19:24
A: .
Sunday August 26th 2012
Hi Sam.
I have begun listening to the beginning of the Youtube clip of the August 1988 Deedat / Shorrosh debate. It is 2 hours and 48 minutes long.
At first I almost turned it off. Deedat begins with what seemed to be agressive and sarcastic remarks.
But I had decided I would listen to 20 minutes before deciding to turn him off. I am glad I waited. I have now heard the first hour.
I also went to Wikipedia to learn about him. I was sad to learn he had fallen ill in 1996 and was bed-ridden till his death in 2006. For him, who was an orator all his life, having to spend the last 10 years of his life in a bed must have been a trial. From what I have learned about him so far, Ahmed Deedat seems to have been a remarkable man.
I will continue listening to parts of the exchange over the next week or so.
It is so hot here today in Quebec. I think Toronto too is experiencing this unusual heat for the end of August. I do not remember the end of August ever being this hot.
My Mum is suffering with a kidney stone at present.
If you can say a prayer for her...
Peace,
Indie
.
Name:sam •
Date: 08/27/12 21:56
A: Dear Indie,
I am sorry to hear that your Mom is not feeling well.
I do pray to God now, that HE remove the suffering from His servant woman, your Mom, and give her a long healthy life, and bless her as HE blessed His righteous people.
God bless you Indie, and your Mom.
Name:sam •
Date: 08/28/12 0:07
A: Dear Indie,
You said:
“At first I almost turned it off. Deedat begins with what seemed to be agressive and sarcastic remarks.
The first debate.”
I had the same feelings when I start watching this debate, and I did watch nearly all his debate, and there are many, all came with a good conduct, and I did question myself ‘why?!’, so , since I know that debate was the second debate between them, I went and watched the first one, after answering your post with a prayer. Of course I did watch this debate before long time, but I cannot remember the full details.
The first debat was:
Is Jesus God ? - Ahmed Deedat VS Anis Shorrosh
Note: the Royal Albert Hall with many empty chairs, because the British police did not let the thousands waiting outside from seeing the debate!!!.
The debate started in unusual way. Dr. Shrrosh, asked everyone to stand up, and of course in respect to him everyone stood up Christians and Muslims, not knowing why!.
Then he asked them to join him in a lengthy prayer, up to now that OK if the words of the prayer is Jesus words, Muslims will not complain, but Mr. Shorrosh start reading from the ‘letter to the Hebrews’!!!.
First, If you read the letters attached to the Gospels, you will see that the letters of Paul were mentioned by his name, but not ‘the letter to the Hebrews. I wonder who wrote this letter?, and to force it on the Muslims, not in church but in a debate!.
Second, that is a dirty tactics, used by the heads of the churches, starting with the Popes. Everyone had to kneel and kiss his hand before entering any talk. That is a ‘psychology’ to play with mind of the others to keep them as inferior and overpowered, and Shorrosh did it for this purpose !.
Third, Mr. Shorrosh pointing his finger at Mr. Deedat, saying “who are you, and who are..”, this is a stupid and a rude way to talk to anyone, even in between two persons alone, so what about saying that to a person whoever he is in front of thousand people !?.
Fourth, Mr. Shorrosh wrote many books against the Islam and the Muslims, that is OK, many Christians and Jews and others wrote similar books, but to write a book call it “The furqan”, an imitation to the holy Quran is not an honest act. And that is a lowest of low, no respect to anyone and not even to the holy book of the other religion with over one and half billion followers.
No Muslim will ever do that, and they do respect the others books because they believe they holds within the words of their prophets.
Dear Indie, Mr. Deedat even he show ‘aggressive’ he always spoke the truth in all what he said, he did not invent anything, and only quoted word by word from what the Bible brought from stories, and not adding any word to them. The stories in the Bible, good or bad it speaks for itself, and any honest person with working brain can see what been said as it was said. If killing is mentioned that killing and not love.
I hope that you now find the truth about Mr. Deedat , and pry for him.
God bless you.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 08/28/12 3:50
A: .
Monday Aug 27th 2012
Hi Sam.
I am a little farther along in my listening of the August 1988 Deedat / Shorrosh debate entitled "Quran or Bible". I found the 4-hour version of that debate and am listening to it.
Tonight I will share with you my impressions about Dr. Shorrosh (and Deedat as well).
My first reaction to Shorrosh was that I felt immediately 'at home' with him, because he is Palestinian, and Palestinians are the first Arabs I ever got to know.
I sort of thought it was neat that he is a Christian from Nazareth.
Though I have shared with you in other posts the fact that in my experience, Palestinians know more about Judaism and Christianity than do other Arabs, he is the first Palestinian I have heard speak who is a Christian with an education in religion.
I read a bit about him online. I learned that, like many of his compatriots, he too ended up in a refugee camp in Jordan.
Probably Amman. At least I am guessing Amman.
An American mission helped him emmigrate to the US, where he did his studies. He lived inside the Evangelical Christian US community. Given that the Evangelical US community is so pro-Israeli, it is almost a contradiction in terms to think of an Evangelical Palestinian preacher.
He speaks much faster than does Deedat.
Deedat is of Indian descent; Deedat's accent in English is Indian, South African, but some of the 'musicality' of Deedat's voice reminds me of the high notes in the voices of some African Americans.
Have you ever seen the Jackie Chan movies?
You know the ones where he stars with Chris Tucker?
The "Rush Hour" trilogy?
Sometimes Deedat's voice rises up like Chris Tucker's voice.
But Deedat's debat is in 1988. Rush Hour 1 is in 1998.
...Then again, I remember a Bombay family in Montreal I knew back in high school; the older brother's voice could reach those high, squeaky notes when trying to be both humorous and presenting an idea using deductive reasoning; so, the high-pitched notes are probably just part of India's vocalizations.
Deedat is a masterful orator; he repeats certain words he knows Occidental or the common man might not be familiar with; he also repeats a phrase using an equivalent word (a synonym).
He gives his audience time to think and understand before he continues on with preseniting his idea.
He does not leave a listener in the dust, as they say.
Shorrosh, on the other hand, is a rapid speaker, who dishes out so much information that one needs to be both learned and a fast thinker to keep up with him, and even then, he is not easy to follow.
...I am curious to know more about Deedat's linguistic background and the cultures he was exposed to growing up.
I think he brings up a lot of valid points about the OT.
He presents the weird stuff in the OT in a funny and entertaining way.
He cracked me up on more than one occasion.
I was sad to learn that Dr. Shorrosh ran into finantial difficulties in the US. I do not know what led to him making some bad choices and ending up in legal difficulties, but I agree with one thing I read :
- it seems that the US Evangelical community did not take care of him very well. It is too bad that his intellectual careet was impacted by poverty and bad choices; I think he has an interesting perspective to offer the world, that of being a Palestinian Christian with a religious education in theology.
One FASCINATING point he raises that I'd like to learn more about are the following criticisms :
(this concerns the content in the Quran about Jesus;)
- this concerns criticisms by Occidentals of the Jesus-content in the Quran;
- this concerns the criticism that Muhammed's Arabian location makes for a Quran-Jesus that is removed from the 'source-texts' about Jesus and based only on vague hearsay information on Jesus:
What I want to say is this :
- I about fell off my chair when Shorrosh addresses those criticism and speaks of Muhammed's wives, saying that two of them (I think) were Christian, and that Muhammed would have been exposed to some thin threads of oral tradition about Jesus because of his wives;
- I am very intrigued and curious to know if anyone has done any historical research and published results on these Christian wives, not as "wives" of Muhammed, but simply as 7th century Christian Arabian women whose oral tradition is reflected in Arabian writings.
- I do not know of any scholarship done on Christian women in Arabia; I am fascinated by the idea that there are writings influences by Christian female oral tradition in Arabia!!
- what a marvelous area of history to explore!
It also seems logical that Muhammed's awareness of Christianity would be influenced by the fact that Christianity did not spread in a south easterly direction, but rather was a Roman-Greko phenomenon which spread in a westerly and northerly direction.
I think that rather than criticize the Quran-Jesus, rather than saying the the Quran-Jesus is merely a thin echo of the Bible-Jesus, scholars should rather explain it in light of geographical context.
I think real scholarship would take into account the 'isolation' of the Arabian penninsula from mainstream Christianity..
I know there is archaeological evidence in Arabia of ancient trade and spice routes traversing the pennisula in a central, slightly NW to SE direction.
In other words, if Saudi Arabian Muslim academia was open to historical research on the 1st to 5th century infiltrations of Christianity into its ancient culture, such scholarship might support and confirm the validity of the Quran-Jesus and help give more weight, in the eyes of skeptical Occidentals, to the Quran-Jesus, and explain why is seems as though the Quran-Jesus is only a pale whisper of the Bible-Jesus.
So, Palestinian Dr. Shorrosh, temporarily 'fallen' thogh he may be, I'd be intested in quality research he might do on 1st to 5th century Christianity in Arabia, particularly if the oral sources are mainly female.
...I am glad I was in Shar'm El Sheik when it was still only one of a few coastal fishing villages, before all the hotels went up.
I have the precious (to me) memory of sitting on the rocks with the sun setting behind me, staring out to the east, at the setting sun's light turning the west coast of Arabia its rust-red, on the other side of a turquoise gulf.
I wished then I could hop in a canoe and paddle over to that shore...
Aaaaanyway... I have enjoyed learning from you about these two interesting men, Deedat and Shorrosh.
Shoukran, once again, for helping me learn more.
Peace,
Indie
.
Name:sam •
Date: 08/29/12 14:09
A: Good morning Indie,
Before answering your last post, I would like to know your opinion about few things:
First, do you trust a person who deliberately lies to you?. yes , no
Second, do you have the right to complain, objects, or express opposition when someone brings lies about something you hold dear and precious to you [the Bible & Jesus]?.
Third, [In arabic there is a famous saying, “AL-SUKUT A’LAMATU AL REDA”, the translation is ,”THE SILENCE IS THE SIGN OF ACCEPTANCE “. So, If someone is lying to you about something you hold dear and precious to you [the Bible & Jesus] and you say nothing, is that means that you accept his lies as if he is telling the truth ?. Do you agree to that or not?.
God bless you.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 08/31/12 3:44
A: .
Good evening Sam,
You were a member of this forum when I posted to it for the first time 5 years ago.
You have been reading my posts since then.
Do you not know the answers to questions you ask?
Sam, when you write that you want me to know that my Native Canadian ancestors believed in falsehoods, I do not respond.
I do not respond, because I know your beliefs are rigid.
When my Evangelical friend says I am not saved and I am going to hell, I do not respond, because I know those beliefs are rigid.
I believe in two things :
- love my neighbour as myself;
- the historico-critical text analysis method.
The rest I leave to God.
Indie
.
Name:sam •
Date: 08/31/12 22:52
A: Dear Indie,
I will start this post by the word of Jesus, the word of truth:
Mat.12:36 And I say to you that in the day when they are judged, men will have to give an account of every foolish word they have said.
Mat. 12:37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.
Luke 17:3 Give attention to yourselves: if your brother does wrong, say a sharp word to him....
Hearing Dr. Shorrosh words, let us see where he fits in:
1) And , Shorrosh said: “I know the Quran is not God’s word”
— WOW, how can he say this, if he cannot read it properly ?. Can he prove that by presenting lies ?.
And he said, “75% of the Quran , is from the Bible .
---- Shorrosh is coming short of understanding the Arabic language, and knows nothing about the science of ‘LOGIC’.
75% of the Quran, is from the Bible....The Quran is not the word’s of God. [Period] ???.
How can he claim that the Quran is not the word of God, period, while claiming that 75% of the Quran came from the Bible ?. Does he understand what 1%, 10%, 50%, 75% or 100% means?.
75% means 3 quarter, the majority.
If he really believe that the Bible is the word of God, then it is logically to say that 75% of the Quran are the word of God, since they came from the Bible. Is that true or not ?.
He lied to win a debate.
2) And Shorrosh claims that the Quran proves the resurrection of Jesus, by bringing a verse from it.
Shorrosh got many degrees in studying the Christian religion books, and in ‘ENGLISH’, but as of his claims that he studied the Quran is a false claim. How can a person study a book if does,’t know the ‘grammar’ of that language ?, and if he cannot properly read one verse correctly of the book ?. Here one example:
Q-19:15 And peace be upon Him [Jesus] the day He was born and the day he DIES and the day He is raised alive.
---- The verse clearly say, “The day He DIES”, and it means a day in the future, and the person is not dead yet .
DIED , is the word given to a person who is already dead.
Shorrosh doesn’t know the difference between DIES & DIED , and he claim that he understand the Quran because he is an Arab and the Arabic language is his mother-tongue .
There are many of mistakes such of this, and that was Deedat answer:
About mistranslating wrong, Deedat said, “if that was deliberate it is devilish, and if it is ignorance it is unacceptable”.
And shorrosh lied again.
3) Shorrosh claims that the Quran mention the trinity 113 times .
In this debate it is clear that Shorrosh brought both wrong claims, 1 & 2, from his lack of knowledge, which is ‘ignorance’ , and he clamed that the Quran proves the trinity 113 times, and his example is taken from the heading which comes before the start of every chapter [exept one], and here it is:
Bismillahir-Rahmanir-Raheem = In the name of Allah , the Merciful, the Especially Merciful.
Merciful and Especially Merciful are “ADJECTIVES”, and they are words indicating attributes to Allah, they do not present anything in the trinity] and they never meant in any shape or form as representing the trinity. Christian trying to prove the trinity by every means, the egg, the water, a triangle or a cart with three people in it, and no limit with can they go to, and that is blasphemy* according to the words of Moses , in the commandments
This is done deliberately by Shorrosh, and it is a ‘devilish act’.
All that because Mr. Shorrosh wanted to win the debate , even by lying, and that comes from his belief that Jesus is God, then he is safe according to what been told by Paul !!!.
Does Shorrosh believe in the Bible [O.T. -one God] or in Jesus words [ The one and only God], and did he forget what Jesus said in , Mat.12:36/37 & Luke 17:3 ?
Answering your post:
“Palestinians know more about Judaism and Christianity than do other Arabs”
— That is not true. The Lebanese, Syrian, Egyptian and other Christian Arabs know as well or more [ex. Lebanon, Syria, Egypt], about Judaism and Christianity, because they always had well established Christian schools and universities.
“It is too bad that his intellectual careet was impacted by poverty...”
---- Anis Shorrosh. Published many books (8). In 2004/2005 he held a tour around the world .
In 2008 he was arrested for arson.
For several years, he been managing ‘pilgrimage’ tours twice a year to Israel.
And a lot of many can be maid from the books and those tours, nothing free. And he was not poor by any means.
Indie, are you defending him, because he is a Christian ? , by making a such an excuse, poverty , poverty can lead a homeless man/woman who cannot find a thing to eat to go and steal, but they will not do an act of ARSON. And a person to ignite a fire in an occupied building with many families is a criminal act, and an act done by a devil/evil/bad person.
Shorrosh is a liar and criminal.
“My first reaction to Shorrosh was that I felt immediately 'at home'...” That is ‘emotion’
---- Dear Indie, an advice from friend. Please don’t let your emotions be an effect on your judgment.
The idea, Because someone belong to my group, I should support him and defend him even if he is wrong is a bad idea, and not only that but it is a dangerous one, and an educated and wise person should use his own brain and the logic if he is really seeking the truth.
“Sometimes Deedat's voice rises up like Chris Tucker's voice.”.... Sometimes .
---- Reading this, I went to check, and what I did find is that you are right about [sometimes] for Deedat, but Shorrosh voice rises up all the time. But you did not notice it because of your feelings towards him. “Felt immediately ‘at home’, and you like his Palestinian voice. The voice of the Indian/African/Mexican and Italian... not forgetting the Arabs , among them the Palestinian are on a higher pitch when they talk, I am one of them .
“He [Deedat] gives his audience time to think and understand....”
---- And, also he give his opponent the chance to take notes which give him the chance to debate him fairly. He is an honest and fair man, and always speaks the truth, and you can see that when watching him turning to Shorrosh and asking him if what he is mentioning is right, then after turn to the audience telling them his opponent approval. Only honest man do that.
“Shorrosh, on the other hand, is a ‘rapid speaker’, who dishes out so much information that one -needs to be both learned and a fast thinker to keep up with him, and even then, he is not easy to follow.”
— You are right.
The debate:
..................
First part - Deedat 75 min. Shorrosh 15 min.
Second part - Shorrosh 75 min. Deedat 15min.
Deedat in the his 75 min. he spoke slowly, and most of the time repeat what he came with, leaving time for Shorrosh to comprehend , and then answer. Deedat is a fair and honest person.
Shorrosh is not stupid, but he is a smart devil , and using a sort of dirty tactics. To throw at his opponent in his 75 min. as much as he can from ‘subjects’ which make it impossible for his opponent to answer them in the short time of 15 min. Shorrosh is not a fair or honest person.
Shorrosh, in his 75 min. he brought nothing but lies, tons of lies, so, to make sure that is not enough time for Deedat to give an answer to all, and if Deedat answers few, that will leave many unanswered , which most of the naive people [mostly those who do not read the Quran, and they do not know anything about Islam and its history, except of what they been taught by their churches, and for sure you know that well] to take those false claims as true ones. That is a devil tactics.
The subject of the debate is ‘the Quran or the Bible’. That is clear. But:
Shorrosh brought many different‘ subjects’ which went far beyond and away from the original one, that is another dirty and devilish tactics to drag his opponent away from the important subject, which both agreed on, ‘The Quran or the Bible’. here some:
- Talking about China and Russia, and the developed/undeveloped countries.
- The massacre of the Arminian by the hand of the Muslim Turk [WWI]. Of course he did not mention the massacres of the Christian protestant, or the native American [those who been called by the people of the Christian churches ‘savages’] , or the Jews, or all the massacres done during the great wars , for him those are not important to mention !.
- Talking about himself, his high education, and the ‘degrees’ he achieved , [knowing that his opponent, Deedat, never come close to reach high school]. Then talk about his son Salam
- Talking about his honesty . [He reminded me of Paul]
- Then he went back to China ‘again’ and the great wall, and after to the Middle East .
- And of course , ‘the freedom of religion . {I will talk about it in another post}
Every Muslim including me we came to pick up his lies one after another instantly while watching him, at the same moment when he came with it , [of course you noticed the complains* of the Muslims and if you watch the last part of the debate, ‘27 of 28 & 28 of 28', then you can see and witness for yourself his many lies.
* You might not agree to the Muslims complains, and you might call them uncivilized, but if what they are doing is what Jesus Himself ask for ?. Luke 17:3 “....if your brother does wrong, say a sharp word to him...” Do you blame them?.
If a person lies, do we have to keep silent and let him go on lying, or we should say to him ‘sharp word ?. What is your opinion on this ?.
Dear Indie, all what I came with in this long post can be challenged by you, and if you find anything that you do not agree with, do not be shy to answer it back, I do have an open mind, and I will not hide or run away from the truth. If I see wrong I point at it , I do the same when I see the right, and I wish you do the same..
I do believe that I am responsible for every word I say, and I do believe that I will be judged for it by God.
Dr. Shorrosh & Dr. Jackson [his assistance] they do not know what is written in their own Bible, while they trying to show that they knew the Quran !.
Every time Deedat, while he is at the podium mentioning a quote from the Bible, both, they try to search for it in the Bible !, and that is why he asked for a confirmation.
On the other hand, while Shoroh at the podium mentioning the Quran, you see Deedat sitting and listening, and he never open any book, not the Quran neither the Bible, because he knows both very well.
I wish you a very good weekend,
God bless you.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 09/01/12 3:55
A: .
Saturday, August 31st 2012
Good morning Sam.
Ah! The weekend. Feels good.
Wow. I read your post. You put a lot of heart into your post. Thank you, dear man.
Time prevents me from replying in detail, but, I can say that I agree with you in general.
I also accept your clarification regarding my impression that Palestinians know more about Christianity than do other Arabs.
I should say: the North Africans I have met in Quebec tend to know less about Christianity than did my Palestinian driver when I was in the Middle East.
My driver, a jolly man, who drove us around for hours and hours for weeks on end, either sang along with the radio, talking about the Olympics and telling me about the Palestinian view of Christianity.
He knew a lot. You are in a better position to speak about the breadth of the Christian community in the Middle East than am I. I bow to your superior knowledge in that respect, of course.
Deedat is an eloquent speaker. Was. God rest his soul.
And funny as hell. Pardon my word. :)
What I meant about his voice was that I liked how he spoke. The rising notes added to his expressive nature and his humour.
It was not a criticism.
As for the feeling 'at home' when I first heard Shorrosh speak, I meant "at first". Or if I did not say that, I say it now.
I agree that as he progresses along in his speech, he proves that he is a product of Evangelical biblical interpretation of text. But I do think he makes some good points.
I will listen to the whole thing again, if for no other reason than to enjoy Deedat once more.
Have a great weekend.
Indie
.
Name:sam •
Date: 09/02/12 15:02
A: Good morning Indie,
What beautiful weekend, hope you are having a good time.
Many thanks for reading my lengthy post.
The main reason for that is to bring to you the truth, that is all. And I do ask you to forgive me if I did misunderstood some of what you meant in the previous post. Such thing happen sometimes, and the best thing is to bring it up, and I am glad you did.
When a debate involve the Quran or the Bible, I do not take the word of the debaters [Muslim, Christian or others] as the whole truth, for each one has his own opinion which sometime does not go in line with the general teaching of their own religion [the books]. There are men who try to go far beyond those teachings on both sides, let me say all around.
Dear Indie, I do always have a lot of paper [the one I use for the printer] on my desk, and I do record every verse mentioned from the Quran or the Bible, then I go to check them from the source, and compare one debate with others to see if it is proved by many, and that is what I been doing in every debate I watch.
I spend much more time on checking, and for 2 hours debate, it might take me a day to finish my work, for me to know, and also for me to write as in the post you already read.
And you already know how much it take me to write in English. Thanks God that I have the time for all that, and to have a good friend like you to share with my work.
In my previous post I brought some of Shorrosh deliberate attack on the Quran and Islam, by inventing countless lies, which led Deedat to say:”
“if that was deliberate it is devilish, and if it is ignorance it is unacceptable”.
Excellent words.
In your answer you said:
“But I do think he makes some good points.”
Before asking you to bring those good points, I will try to guess of at list one of those that you might think it is a good point. And that is about the ‘freedom of religion’.
Shorrosh asked a question, “ why Saudi Arabia do not let the Christian to come to Mecca and Medina and practice their religion in those cities ?.”
Let me start my answer with your own words:
“Half of my Native relatives and ancestors drank themselves to death because of the effects of the British Empire on aboriginal cultures.”
That came under the /title : Palestine & Israel ---- Date: 08/15/12 14:11
In matter of fact, [drank themselves to death as your native people or kill them by the swords or the guns as for other natives], it is all the same.
All were done by all the European nations, and all were supported by the church people, who had the control seat in their kingdoms, and you should know this fact.
On the other hand, as from the video which you brought to my attention , [Muslims in Spain] we learn that the Muslims did not bring death and destruction to Spain, and the Jews and the Christian were given the freedom in practicing their own faith, plus, they brought prosperities to all in business, education etc.., And no army went to conquer Indonesia, which is the biggest Muslim country.
“The effects of”, we know what was the effects of the Christians conquest by the swords and guns on the other people, native or not, so, let me see what will the effects be of letting the Christians conquest to come using different weapons, dirty weapons [drugs//alcohol/mafie/ gangs etc.] witch will destroy the whole nation, and to come under the banner of the ‘freedom of religion’ to Mecca & Medina , those two cities which are regarded as a holy cities.
– The churches will come with its followers, then will be followed by the Hindu, the Buddhist the atheist, the Crishna and so on.
– And those cities will become like Rome, Paris, London, etc., .... and Beirut.
Just imagine how those holy cities will became ?. When pubs and bars are all around, and drunken people roaming the streets, beside the prostitute, women half naked [honest families in Toronto are complaining... also in every dity where there are good honest people], beside creating a full street for prostitution, as in many cities in the Christian and Buddhists cities. In Beirut and around the main square [Sahat El-burj] in the Christian sector, there is “SOUK AL SHARAMEET” The house of the prostitutes .
And imagine what will happen to those cities, when the Italian/ Russian/Jewish etc., mafia enter in, and the western gangs with their drugs/guns fill the streets, and the wars between them.
And not to forget the gambling casinos [a lot of many there], and the nude clubs, and if I forget something please remind me.
USA the greatest nation on earth today [and many others] cannot control these gangs or eliminate them. So, you think it is a good idea to bring all the above to Saudi Arabia, under the banner of the freedom of religion ?.
Will you accept those I mentioned in your house and among your family or even in your neighborhood ?. Does any good family accept them?. So, why the Christian always insist on the freedom of religion ?.
Indie, I chose one just by guessing, I might be wrong, so, please bring to me Shorrosh’s good points, and thank you in advance.
God bless you.
Name:vvk •
Date: 10/22/12 15:56
A: When we diligently study the biography of Muhammad and the ahadith we find quite a few examples where Muhammad had openly transgressed the provisions of the Qur'an. Sex was an important aspect of Muhammad’s life. His unbridled indulgence in sex had, on many occasions, forced him to violate Allah’s rule overtly. To suppress his breach of the Qur’anic laws on sex and sexuality, he, as usual, concocted stories of Allah’s exemption to His dearest friend. In this essay I am exposing the hypocrisy of some Islamists who claim adamantly that Muhammad could have never violated the Qur’an. What follows are examples of how Muhammad had violated the Qur’an vis-à-vis sex.
[edit] Muhammad violated the Qur’anic rule on sex during fasting
The Qur'an dictates regulations about having sex during fasting.
The following verse resticts sexual activities to the night only:
Permitted to you, on the night of the fasts, is the approach to your wives. They are your garments and ye are their garments. Allah knoweth what ye used to do secretly among yourselves; but He turned to you and forgave you; so now associate with them, and seek what Allah Hath ordained for you, and eat and drink, until the white thread of dawn appear to you distinct from its black thread; then complete your fast Till the night appears; but do not associate with your wives while ye are in retreat in the mosques. Those are Limits (set by) Allah: Approach not nigh thereto. Thus doth Allah make clear His Signs to men: that they may learn self-restraint.
Qur'an 2:187
Here is what Muhammad did while observing fast:
Muhammad slept with Umm Salama during her period, kissed her while fasting and used to take bath from the same pot after having sex:
Narrated Zainab bint Abi Salama: Um-Salama said, "I got my menses while I was lying with the Prophet under a woollen sheet. So I slipped away, took the clothes for menses and put them on. Allah's Apostle said, 'Have you got your menses?' I replied, 'Yes.' Then he called me and took me with him under the woollen sheet." Um Salama further said, "The Prophet used to kiss me while he was fasting. The Prophet and I used to take the bath of Janaba from a single pot."
Sahih Bukhari 1:6:319
While fasting, Muhammad kissed and embraced his wives:
Narrated 'Aisha: The Prophet used to kiss and embrace (his wives) while he was fasting, and he had more power to control his desires than any of you. Said Jabir, "The person who gets discharge after casting a look (on his wife) should complete his fast."
Sahih Bukhari 3:31:49
Muhammad used to kiss and suck Aisha's tongue while they were fasting:
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) used to kiss her and suck her tongue when he was fasting.
Abu Dawud 13:2380
[edit] Muhammad violated the Qur’anic rules on dower
When Muhammad captured Khaybar, he took as a captive Safiyyah bt Huyayy, a very pretty teenage-girl and married her without paying her any dowry (Mahr). The payment of Mahr is compulsory in the Islamic law of marriage.
First, we shall examine how Muhammad violated the rule of dower.
This rule is stipulated in the Qur’an thus:
And give the women (on marriage) their dower as a free gift; but if they, of their own good pleasure, remit any part of it to you, Take it and enjoy it with right good cheer
Qur'an 4:4
To hide his deception, Muhammad claimed that marrying Safiyyah was in itself a good honour for her, her dowry was her manumission from being a sex-slave to Muhammad. Muhammad consummated his marriage with Saffiyah by staying with her for three days on way from Khaybar; he ordered her to wear a veil:
Narrated Anas bin Malik: The Prophet stayed with Safiya bint Huyai for three days on the way of Khaibar where he consummated his marriage with her. Safiya was amongst those who were ordered to use a veil.
Sahih Bukhari 5:59:523
Narrated Anas: The Prophet stayed for three rights between Khaibar and Medina and was married to Safiya. I invited the Muslim to his marriage banquet and there was neither meat nor bread in that banquet but the Prophet ordered Bilal to spread the leather mats on which dates, dried yogurt and butter were put. The Muslims said amongst themselves, "Will she (i.e. Safiya) be one of the mothers of the believers, (i.e. one of the wives of the Prophet) or just (a lady captive) of what his right-hand possesses" Some of them said, "If the Prophet makes her observe the veil, then she will be one of the mothers of the believers (i.e. one of the Prophet's wives), and if he does not make her observe the veil, then she will be his lady slave." So when he departed, he made a place for her behind him (on his and made her observe the veil.
Sahih Bukhari 5:59:524
Muhammad stayed with Safiyyah for three nights consummating his marriage:
Anas b Malik said: When the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) married safiyyah, he stayed with her three nights. The narrator 'Uthman added: She was non-virgin (previously married). He said: This tradition has been narrated to me by Hushaim, reported by Humaid, and transmitted by Anas.
Abu Dawud 11:2118
Saffiya’s 'dower' for marriage was her manumission:
This hadith has been narrated through another chain of transmitters on the authority of Anas that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) emancipated Safiyya, and her emancipation was treated as her wedding gift, and in the hadith transmitted by Mu'adh on the authority of his father (the words are):" He (the Holy Prophet) married Safiyya and bestowed her emancipation as her wedding gift."
Sahih Muslim 8:3326
Further information on this lustful marriage with a 19-year-old Jewish beauty with 60-year-old Muhammad is gleaned from the narration of Ibn Sa’d. It should be noted that before falling into the hands of Muhammad, this pretty young women was married to a Jewish man. Muhammad had already killed Safiyaah’s husband and her father after subjecting them to brutal torture, and finally beheading them. Having satiated his lust for blood, on the same night he killed her closest relatives, Muhammad took Saffiyah into his tent to have sex with her.
We learn from Ibn Sa’d that Muhammad purchased Safiyyah from Dhiyah for seven camels (around US$ 2,100). On the same night that Muhammad took possession of Safiyyah, he hastened to his tent to sleep with her. Here is what Ibn Sa’d writes:
…when it was night, he entered a tent and she entered with him. Abu Ayyub came there and passed the nigh by the tent by the tent with a sword keeping his head at the tent. When it was morning and the Apostle of Allah, may Allah bless him, perceived (some body) moving, he asked: Who is there? He replied: I am Abu Ayub. He asked: Why are you here? He replied: O Apostle of Allah! There is a young lass newly wedded (to you) with whose late husband you have done what you have done. I was not sure of safety, so I wanted to be close to you. Thereupon the Apostle of Allah, may Allah bless him, said twice: O Abu Ayyub! May Allah show you mercy.
Ibn Sad-Tabaqat: Vol.2 p.145
To hide the lascivious character of Muhammad, Muslim biographers often mention that he married Safiyyah before he slept with her. But they forget to state that Muhammad did not follow the rule of waiting period (three monthly periods) to sleep with Safiyyah.
[edit] Muhammad violated the rule of iddah
We shall now see how Muhammad had violated the rule of idda (waiting period) in marrying a woman.
The following rules are stipulated in the Qur'an:
Before marrying another man, a divorced woman must wait three monthly periods:
Divorced women shall wait concerning themselves for three monthly periods. Nor is it lawful for them to hide what Allah Hath created in their wombs, if they have faith in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands have the better right to take them back in that period, if they wish for reconciliation. And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree (of advantage) over them. And Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise
Qur'an 2:228
Widows must wait four months and ten days for re-marriage:
If any of you die and leave widows behind, they shall wait concerning themselves four months and ten days: When they have fulfilled their term, there is no blame on you if they dispose of themselves in a just and reasonable manner. And Allah is well acquainted with what ye do.
Qur'an 2:234
Muhammad violated this rule by having sex with Safiyyah, the wife of a Jewish Rabbi. After conquering Khybar, a Jewish village, Muhammad killed Safiyyah's husband and selected her for himself due to her beauty, making her his wife and giving a banquet at the wedding; then he had sex with Saffiyah at Sa`d-AsSahba:
Narrated Anas bin Malik: The Prophet said to Abu Talha, "Choose one of your boy servants to serve me in my expedition to Khaibar." So, Abu Talha took me letting me ride behind him while I was a boy nearing the age of puberty. I used to serve Allah's Apostle when he stopped to rest. I heard him saying repeatedly, "O Allah! I seek refuge with You from distress and sorrow, from helplessness and laziness, from miserliness and cowardice, from being heavily in debt and from being overcome by men." Then we reached Khaibar; and when Allah enabled him to conquer the Fort (of Khaibar), the beauty of Safiya bint Huyai bin Akhtab was described to him. Her husband had been killed while she was a bride. So Allah's Apostle selected her for himself and took her along with him till we reached a place called Sad-AsSahba,' where her menses were over and he took her for his wife. Haris (a kind of dish) was served on a small leather sheet. Then Allah's Apostle told me to call those who were around me. So, that was the marriage banquet of Allah's Apostle and Safiya. Then we left for Medina . I saw Allah's Apostle folding a cloak round the hump of the camel so as to make a wide space for Safiya (to sit on behind him) He sat beside his camel letting his knees for Safiya to put her feet on so as to mount the camel. Then, we proceeded till we approached Medina ; he looked at Uhud (mountain) and said, "This is a mountain which loves us and is loved by us." Then he looked at Medina and said, "O Allah! I make the area between its (i.e. Medina 's) two mountains a sanctuary as Abraham made Mecca a sanctuary. O Allah! Bless them (i.e. the people of Medina ) in their Mudd and Sa (i.e. measures)."
Sahih Bukhari 4:52:143
Clearly, when Muhammad desired to sleep or to have sex with Safiyyah, she was a widow, technically, as Muhammad had just killed her husband. Therefore, as per the Qur’an, Muhammad had to wait at least four months and ten days before he could even touch her. But Muhammad did not at all observe this rule; instead, he took Safiyyah, straight from the battlefield to his bed in the war camp. Having spent the night with her, Muhammad took her to another, safer location, staying there for three days and consummating his marriage with Safiyyah.
Plainly; Muhammad violated the Idda rule of the Qur'an. The Sahih hadith from Bukhari above is evidentiary to this.
[edit] Muhammad violated the restriction on the number of his wives
When Muhammad married Zaynab bt Jahsh, the wife of his adopted son, Zayd b. Harith, Allah was a little bit displeased with his audacious crave for young, beautiful, sexy and luscious women married or single. So, Allah clamped down on Muhammad and sternly warned him that enough, that he could not accumulate further, any extra wives. Allah made Zaynab Muhammad’s wife number eight or ninth the last wife. Here is the verse where Allah forbade Muhammad to marry further after marrying Zaynab bt, Jahsh:
Allah put restriction on Muhammad's marriage:
he is not to take any new wife, neither exchange old wives for new:
It is not lawful for thee (to marry more) women after this, nor to change them for (other) wives, even though their beauty attract thee, except any thy right hand should possess (as handmaidens): and Allah doth watch over all things.
Qur'an 33:52
Now, let us have a look at the list of women with whom Muhammad had had some kind of connection, including sexual. This list has been prepared from the book of Tabari (vol. ix, pp.120-141). Please note that this list is in chronological order. I have marked (*) the name of Zaynab to demonstrate how flagrantly Muhammad had dishonoured Allah’s restriction on him! he had collected at least 13 more wives, a sex-slave and a concubine even when Allah commanded him to restrain his wife collection.
Muhammad had married 21 wives:
1.Khadijah bt. Khuwaylid
2.Sawdah bt. Jamah
3.Aisha bt. Abu Bakr
4.Hafsah bt. Umar (Hafsha found Muhammad and Mariyah in her bed and she became hysterical (footnote 884).
5.Umm Salamh
6.Juwayriyyah
7.Umm Habiba bt. Abi Sufyan
8.Zaynab bt Jahsh*
9.Safiyyah bt. Huyayy
10.Maymunah bt. Al-Harith
11.Sana bt. Asma or Saba bt. Asma. She died before Muhammad consummated the marriage.
12.Al-Shama bt. Amr al-Ghifariyaah. Muhammad divorced for doubting his prophethood.
13.Ghaziyyah bt. Jabir or Umm Sharik. She was previously married and had a son named Sharik. She was beautiful but she refused to consummate the marriage. Muhammad found her old (page 139); so he returned her to her people
14.Amrah bt. Yazid or Umm Sharik. Some say she gave herself to Muhammad Qur'an 33:50 . The marriage was not consummated.
15.Asma bt. Al-Numan. Muhammad found her suffering from leprosy; so he divorced her giving her compensation.
16.Zaynab bt. Khuzaymah' also called Umm al-Masakin (mother of the poor)
17.Al-Aliyaah bt. Zabyan. It is alleged that she peeped through her door at the people in the mosque. So Muhammad divorced her after paying her some compensation (footnote 919).
18.Qutaylah bt. Qays but Muhammad died before he could consummate his marriage with her. She and her brother apostatized from Islam.
19.Fatimah bt. Shurayh (Sara)
20.Kawlah bt. Hudhayl
21.Layla bt. Al-Khatim. She offered herself to Muhammad and Muhammad accepted her as his wife.. Later, when her people admonished her for marrying Muhammad, she requested for a divorce and Muhammad divorced her.
"People used to say that Muhammad was a womaniser".
Tabari, vol.ix, p.139
List of women to whom Muhammad proposed but did not marry:
1.Umm Hani bt. Abi Talid (she had a child)
2.Dubbah bt. Amir (she was too old)
3.Safiyyah bt. Bashshamah (she was a captive)
4.Umm Habiba bt al-Abbas (fosterage)
5.Jamrah bt. Al-Harith (was suffering from leprosy)
6.Khawlah bt. Hakim
7.Amamah bt. Hamzah
Muhammad had two concubines, namely Mariyah bt. Shamun (better known as Mariyah the Copt) and Raihanah bt. Zayd Al-Qarazi. He did not consummate marriage with two women, namely Mulaykah bint Kab Al-Laythi (Muhammad divorced her before consummating the marriage) and Bint Jundub.
Even the greatest Islamist apologist of all time, Abdulla Yusuf Ali admits that Muhammad did indeed transgress the stipulation of the Qur'an.
Yusuf Ali writes:
“This was revealed in A.H. 7. After that the Prophet did not marry again, except the handmaiden Mary the Copt, who was sent as a present by the Christians Muaqauqas of Egypt. She became the mother of Ibrahim, who died in his infancy”.
Yusuf Ali (commentary number 3754, p.1123)
[edit] Muhammad violated the Qur'anic law on the punishment of sex offenders
Fornication and adultery are two most serious offences in Islamic societies. The punitive measures, as enacted in the Qur’an are truly extremely harsh and barbaric.
Let us read the verse which deals with such grave crimes:
Punishment for adultery or fornication (both man and woman) is one hundred lashes in front of the believers:
The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
Qur'an 24:2
Strangely though, when it came to a friend of Muhammad, who admitted having committed a punishable offence (illegal sex, perhaps), Muhammad did not apply this Qur’anic rule. Here is a hadith from Sahih Bukhari on this violation of the Qur’an:
Muhammad did not punish a person for illegal sexual intercourse because the person prayed with him...
Narrated Anas bin Malik: While I was with the Prophet a man came and said, "O Allah's Apostle! I have committed a legally punishable sin; please inflict the legal punishment on me'.' The Prophet did not ask him what he had done. Then the time for the prayer became due and the man offered prayer along with the Prophet , and when the Prophet had finished his prayer, the man again got up and said, "O Allah's Apostle! I have committed a legally punishable sin; please inflict the punishment on me according to Allah's Laws." The Prophet said, "Haven't you prayed with us?' He said, "Yes." The Prophet said, "Allah has forgiven your sin." or said, "....your legally punishable sin."
Sahih Bukhari 8:82:812
[edit] Muhammad violated the Qur’anic code of conduct between marriageable couples
Please note, that a man and a woman who are not close relatives (that is, those men and women who could be married to each other, those who are not in the prohibited class for marriage purposes) cannot, under any circumstances, be alone together.
This moral guardianship is endorsed in these verses of the Qur’an:
Believing men are to lower their gaze and guard modesty:
Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: And Allah is well acquainted with all that they do.
Qur'an 24:30
Now, let us see what Muhammad did with some single women, who could be married to him.
The first such woman was none other than his first cousin-sister, Umm Hani bt Abu Talib. Muhammad passionately fell in love with her, but for some unknown reason his beloved uncle, Abu Talib did not give her hand to Muhammad when requested. Instead, she was married to a pagan, Hibayrah. But Muhammad’s adulterous relation with Umm Hani (real name Fakitah, also known as Hind) continued. He used to sleep in her house, when no one was around. Such an incidence took place when Muhammad returned from his failed mission at Taif, after the deaths of his first wife, Khadijah and his uncle Abu Talib. Returning from Taif, he took shelter in the Ka'aba. But at nightfall, when all were asleep, he stealthily went to Umm Hani’s house and spent the night with her. When the people did not find him at Ka’aba, they went looking for him and when he was discovered in the house of Umm Hani, he was embarrassed, so was Umm Hani. To hide the truth, he concocted the story of his night journey to Jerusalem and Paradise from Umm Hani’s house (more precisely, from her bed), which many converted Muslims found too incredible to believe and left Islam. This made him sad and withdrawn. Soon, after such an adulterous affair was leaked out, he left Mecca and settled in Medina . But his undying love for Umm Hani remained aflame.
Later, when Muhammad became militarily strong and conquered Mecca , he went to Umm Hani’s house and stayed there overnight, praying and chit-chatting with her. Hubayrah, Umm Hani’s husband had foreseen the fall of Mecca and had fled to Najran. So, Umm Hani was living in her house, separated from her pagan husband, and Muhammad was there comforting her, in open transgression of the Qur’anic code. (Please consult: Martin Lings, p.33, 101, 103-104, 299; Ibn Ishaq, p.184, Tabari, vol.viii, p.186)
Here is a hadith from Sahih Bukhari which demonstrates Muhammad’s way with single women, divorced or widowed, rich or poor, for sex, which clearly violates the Qur’an. A dignified woman, Jauniyaa (a princess) was brought to Muhammad to have sex with him but she was reluctant to give herself to him; Muhammad was angry and raised his hand to beat her...
Narrated Abu Usaid: We went out with the Prophet to a garden called Ash-Shaut till we reached two walls between which we sat down. The Prophet said, "Sit here," and went in (the garden). The Jauniyya (a lady from Bani Jaun) had been brought and lodged in a house in a date-palm garden in the home of Umaima bint An-Nu'man bin Sharahil, and her wet nurse was with her. When the Prophet entered upon her, he said to her, "Give me yourself (in marriage) as a gift." She said, "Can a princess give herself in marriage to an ordinary man?" The Prophet raised his hand to pat her so that she might become tranquil. She said, "I seek refuge with Allah from you." He said, "You have sought refuge with One Who gives refuge. Then the Prophet came out to us and said, "O Abu Usaid! Give her two white linen dresses to wear and let her go back to her family." Narrated Sahl and Abu Usaid: The Prophet married Umaima bint Sharahil, and when she was brought to him, he stretched his hand towards her. It seemed that she disliked that, whereupon the Prophet ordered Abu Usaid to prepare her and to provide her with two white linen dresses. (See Hadith No. 541).
Sahih Bukhari 7:63:182
[edit] Muhammad violated the Qur'anic rule on sex with menstruating women
The 'Holy' Qur’an, on menstruating women says:
“Menstruation is a disease; can't have sex during a woman's period; after the period is over have sex in any manner, at any time and at any place”
They ask thee concerning women's courses. Say: They are a hurt and a pollution: So keep away from women in their courses, and do not approach them until they are clean. But when they have purified themselves, ye may approach them in any manner, time, or place ordained for you by Allah. For Allah loves those who turn to Him constantly and He loves those who keep themselves pure and clean.
Qur'an 2:222
Let us examine what Muhammad did to his wives when they were in heavy menstruation:
During her period, Muhammad used to fondle Aisha in bath:
Narrated 'Aisha: The Prophet and I used to take a bath from a single pot while we were Junub. During the menses, he used to order me to put on an Izar (dress worn below the waist) and used to fondle me. While in Itikaf, he used to bring his head near me and I would wash it while I used to be in my periods (menses).
Sahih Bukhari 1:6:298
Muhammad put his cheek and chest in between the naked thighs of a menstruating Aisha...
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:
Umarah ibn Ghurab said that his paternal aunt narrated to him that she asked Aisha: What if one of us menstruates and she and her husband have no bed except one? She replied: I relate to you what the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) had done.
One night he entered (upon me) while I was menstruating. He went to the place of his prayer, that is, to the place of prayer reserved (for this purpose) in his house. He did not return until I felt asleep heavily, and he felt pain from cold. And he said: Come near me. I said: I am menstruating. He said: Uncover your thighs. I, therefore, uncovered both of my thighs. Then he put his cheek and chest on my thighs and I lent upon he until he became warm and slept.
Abu Dawud 1:270
It could be that caressing and foreplay do not necessarily constitute actual coition. But bear in mind that these lustful activities are just a prelude to other forms of sexual gratification.
[edit] Muhammad violated the Qur’anic rule of not to have sex with women when in ihram
Here is the Qur’anic verse on the purity state in a mosque:
“Observe Hajj in the prescribed month; no sexual intercourse, misconduct and argument during the Hajj session”.
For Hajj are the months well known. If any one undertakes that duty therein, Let there be no obscenity, nor wickedness, nor wrangling in the Hajj. And whatever good ye do, (be sure) Allah knoweth it. And take a provision (With you) for the journey, but the best of provisions is right conduct. So fear Me, o ye that are wise.
Qur'an 2:197
“You can have sex with wives only at nights of fasting time; wives are garments; do not approach wife while in retreat (ihram) in a mosque...”
Permitted to you, on the night of the fasts, is the approach to your wives. They are your garments and ye are their garments. Allah knoweth what ye used to do secretly among yourselves; but He turned to you and forgave you; so now associate with them, and seek what Allah Hath ordained for you, and eat and drink, until the white thread of dawn appear to you distinct from its black thread; then complete your fast Till the night appears; but do not associate with your wives while ye are in retreat in the mosques. Those are Limits (set by) Allah: Approach not nigh thereto. Thus doth Allah make clear His Signs to men: that they may learn self-restraint.
Qur'an 2:187
Even a hadith in Sunaan Abu Dawud confirms the stipulation of the Qur’an. This hadith says:
“A pilgrim must not marry and give someone in marriage in the sacred state (while wearing ihram)”
Nubaih b. Wahb, brother of Banu Abd al-Dar said: Umar b. Ubaid Allah sent someone to Aban b. Uthman b. Affan, asking him (to participate in the marriage ceremony). Aban in those days was the chief of pilgrims, and both were in the sacred state (wearing ihram). I want to give the daughter of Shaibah b. Jubair to Talhah b. Umar in marriage. I wish that you may attend it. Aban refused and said: I heard my father Uthman b. Affan narrating a tradition from the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) as saying: A pilgrim may not marry and give someone in marriage in the sacred state (while wearing ihram).
Abu Dawud 10:1837
But Muhammad did not have much regard for the Qur’an or even to his own words when it came to marrying women and having sex with them. So, when he went to Mecca, to perform the Hajj, and a proposal of marriage was offered to him, he quickly accepted the offer and married the woman even though he was in sacred state wearing ihram.
Here is the hadith from Sunaan Abu Dawud:
Muhammad married Maimunah while he was in the sacred state wearing ihra:
Ibn Abbas said: The Prophet (may peace be upon him) married Maimunah while he was in the sacred state (wearing ihram).
Abu Dawud 10:1840
[edit] Conclusion
I am certain the Islamist apologists will employ many twisted tricks, convoluted logic and strange reasoning to disprove all those historical records which I enumerated above. The fact is, no matter what they say, the truth remains the intelligent readers will have no difficulty in separating the corn from the chaff. Muhammad, had on many occasions violated the Qur’an.
WIKIISLAM.
