Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Title: The Jerusalem Conference •
Date posted: 01/13/08 5:06
Q: Once on a while, I really need to say a prayer.
This is one of those times.
Dear Godde.
This is Indie speaking.
Please Godde, for the Conference in Jerusalem, send your angels down to bless and protect every one there.
Please Godde, bring to the minds of literalists in the 3 great religions the reassurance that it is okay to allow exegisis and text analysis.
May Your Ruoh whisper to the minds of men that nothing is destroyed when we dare to see how great is the part you let man play in the writing your Word.
You allow men to write imperfect words.
You said : Let the the good grain grow beside the bad.
At the great day of harvest, You will separate the imperfect words from the perfect words.
Long ago, You suffered the 12 tribes of the chosen people to be scattered.
Not all have been found.
For now, three great tribes walk the streets of Jerusalem.
You have summon the rabbis, the priests and imams.
Let them heed your call.
Let them partake of Your Word, using their words.
At Babel, the tongues were confounded.
Exgesized the confounded.
Let one tribe stop calling his Brother his ennemy.
You said the Law was a tool for a season.
You said dogma was a tool for a season.
Let the wall come tumbling down.
Let imperfect words of men be tolerated.
Let hearts of men hear only the Word.
Let the three tribes of Jerusalem show the way.
Let them stop the hate.
Let them stop the blood.
Let them lay down the last sacrifice of dogma.
Let it bleed to emptiness.
Let it be consumed.
You said the law was a tool for a season.
You said dogma was a tool for a season.
As long as our tongues were confused,
we each needed our own laws.
You said the sabbath was made for man.
Not man for the sabbath.
Let this gathering be the sign to all peoples.
The time is now for all men to join words.
Even, imperfect words.
Like Juda who once found the words of Israel in its sanctuary,
like Juda, who once welcomed the scrolls from the North Kingdom,
let these three tribes welcome one another's scrolls.
Ainsi soit-Elle, and El.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 01/13/08 17:53
A: AMEN! and peace.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/15/08 15:50
A: The program of the conference listed by Dr Tabor.
6:00pm - 7:30pm
1) Welcome
2) Opening Address “Jerusalem’s Tombs During the Time of Hillel and Jesus” –
Charlesworth
7:30pm – 9:00pm
Reception
MONDAY, JANUARY 14TH, 2008
Brief lectures of ten-twenty minutes each, followed by open discussions.
8:00am - 9:30am
Panel Discussion: Ancient Beliefs About the Afterlife and Burial
Customs: Session I
Presiding: Charlesworth
Choon-Leong Seow “Views of the Afterlife in Job”
F. W. Dobbs-Allsopp “Love as Strong as Death” :
A Reading of Song 8:5-8,
with Special Attention to the
Imagery of Death and the Afterlife”
Geza Vermes “The Afterlife in Jewish Apocryphal Works and the Dead Sea Scrolls”
• What were the major views of death and the afterlife among Hebrews, Israelites, Jews, or “Christians” in these periods?
10:00am - 11:30am
Panel Discussion: Ancient Beliefs About the Afterlife and Burial
Customs: Session II
Presiding: Oded Newman
Casey Elledge “Views of the Afterlife and Post-70 Judaism: Josephus”
Alan Segal “Views of the Afterlife and Post-70 Judaism: Rabbinics”
Israel Knohl “By Three Days, Alive: Messiahs, Resurrection, and Ascent to Heaven in Hazon Gabriel”
Arye Edrei***** “Burial customs and Rabbinic Law”
11:30 am-11:45am
Amos Kloner “the characteristics of the Necropolis of Jerusalem in the late Hellenistic and early Roman period”.
Sessions:
All participants will present a ten-minute overview of the question raised, the method used to answer it, and the most likely conclusion. When all panelists have presented succinctly their research, the panel will discuss among themselves and then the floor will be open for general discussion. Each participant is to prepare a one-page summary for 50 people.
11:45am-1:30pm
Panel Discussion:
Tombs, Ossuaries, and Burial Practices:
The Archaeological Evidence
Presiding: Adolfo Roitman
Dan Bahat
Jodi Magness
Eric Meyers
Motti Aviam
• When, where, and why were ossuaries used in Jewish burials?
• To what degree are ossuary and cave burials a sign of wealth and status?
• How typical are ossuaries for the Jews in and near Jerusalem?
• What do we learn from the ossuaries: markings, decorations, inscriptions?
• What are the broad burial and cemetery patterns around Jerusalem?
• What was typical about burial customs in the Galilee?
• What were the different types of Jewish burial in the period?
• What does the Church of the Holy Sepulcher inform us about Jesus’ burial?
2:30pm – 4:00pm
Panel Discussion:
Burial Beliefs and Practices:
The Architectural and Textual Evidence
Presiding: Choon-Leong Seow
Eldad Keynan
Rafi Lewis
Konstantinos Zarras
Eli Shai
Shimon Gibson
• Focus on ideology and texts
• How do texts inform our understanding of material evidence?
• Burial facades and monuments as markers of political ideology, religious beliefs and prestige.
• How are Hellenistic burials related to views of the afterlife?
• What do we learn about Jewish burial customs from the classical Jewish sources and from the archeology of the Shroud Tomb?
4:30pm – 6:00pm
Panel Discussion:
Onomastics and Prosopography in Second Temple Judaism
Presiding: Emanuel Tov
Christopher Rollston
Rachel Hachlili
André Lemaire
Claude Cohen-Matlofsky
• How and when can we match inscriptional names with known historical figures?
• How representative is our surviving onomastic data?
• Attempting prosopography with the Talpiot inscriptions? What are the issues and potential results?
TUESDAY, JANUARY 15TH, 2008
9:00am – 10:30am
Panel Discussion:
The Talpiot Ossuaries and their Epigraphy
Presiding: F. W. Dobbs-Allsopp
Jonathan Price
Stephen Pfann
Eldad Keynan
James Tabor
Claude Cohen-Matlofsky
• Reading the “Yeshua bar Yehosef” inscription.
• Issues related to the names: Yose, Mariah, Matya, and Judah bar Yeshua
• How is the Greek inscription (Mariamenou/Mara) to be read and understood?
• What is the significance of Greek inscriptions in Jewish tombs?
11:00am – 12:30pm
Panel Discussion:
Forensic Archaeology, Paleo-DNA and their Archaeological Applications
Presiding: John Hoffmann
Joe Zias
Mark Spigelman
Chuck Greenblat
• What is the history of the use of DNA on skeletal remains from tombs?
• What are the value and limitations of Mitochondrial and Nuclear results?
• The results from the Akeldama “Tomb of the Shroud” as a test case
• What was learned from the tests on the “Yeshua” and “Mariamene” ossuary remains?
• What future prospects remain for learning more about the Talpiot materials?
2:00pm – 3:30pm
Panel Discussion:
The Landscape of Tombs –
New Methods of Research and Archaeological Applications
Presiding: Motti Aviam
Boaz Zissu
Howard Feldman
Aryeh Shimron
Charles Pellegrino ***
• What are the scientific methods for the study of a necropolis?
• Patterns of tombs and their significance
• What can we learn from patina on stone surfaces?
• What do preliminary tests tell us about the patina of the Talpiot tomb ossuaries?
• What are future prospects for this area of research?
4:00pm – 5:30pm
Panel Discussion:
The Talpiot Tomb in March 1980
Presiding: Gabi Mazor
Shimon Gibson “Interpreting Archaeology and the Talpiot Tomb”
Gabi Barkay “Reflections on the Talpiot Excavation”
“Skeletal Remains from the Talpiot Tomb: What do we know?
• An overview of the March, 1980 excavation and its wider contexts
• A description of the tomb and its contents
• What records and photographs remain of the excavation?
• What do we know about the skeletal remains?
• How were skeletal remains typically studied and handled in 1980?
• How and when were the finds catalogued and studied?
• What do we not know that we wish we knew?
• What would be done differently today with more time and refined methods?
5:30pm – 7:00pm
Panel Discussion:
Mary Magdalene in Early Christian Tradition
Presiding: V. Hemingway
Ann Graham Brock
Jane Schaberg
April DeConick
• What do we know about the historical Mary Magdalene?
• How valuable historically are the later Coptic and other non-canonical traditions?
• What are the arguments pro and con regarding Jesus being married or having children?
• Would early Jesus’ followers have called Mary Magdalene “Master”?
• Was Mary Magdalene a woman of means with a Hellenistic cultural background?
• Does the presence of a “Judah son of Jesus” ossuary in the Talpiot tomb necessarily disqualify it as being the tomb of Jesus of Nazareth?
WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 16TH, 2008
9:00am – 10:30am
Panel Discussion:
Relating Tomb Archaeology with Historical Figures:
Possibilities and Problems Discoveries
Presiding: Moshe Zimmerman
Dino Politis “Relating sites to historical figures: Lot’s Cave”
Joe Fitzmyer*** “The James Ossuary”
Ehud Netzer “The Discovery of Herod’s Tomb”
André Lemaire “The Ossuary of Simon and Alexander”
What methodologies help us discern Herod’s Tomb at the Herodium?
• Evaluating the Caiaphus, Shimon bar Jonas, and Alexander/Simon of Cyrene inscriptions: What are the methods and presuppositions involved?
11:00am – 12:30pm
Panel Discussion:
The Burial of Jesus, the Empty Tomb, and the Jesus Family
Presiding: Tom Oates
Petr Pokorný
James Tabor
Lee McDonald
• Exploring the Palestinian Jesus Movement and Jesus’ Clan
• A discussion of the family movement, from the Baptizer to James and beyond
• What are the basic theories on the Jesus family: brothers, sisters, paternity
• What is known of the death of Jesus’ brothers?
• The empty tomb and resurrection theology.
• What is our best historical evidence on Who’s Who and what happened in history? James, Shimon bar Clophas, the brothers Yose and Judah
• Are the roles of James and Jesus’ brothers crucial to understanding pre-70 CE Christianity?
• What were the major parties and politics involved: Peter, Paul, James?
2:00pm – 3:30pm
Panel Discussion:
Statistics and the Talpiot tomb
Presiding: James Joyner
Andrey Feuerverger
Camil Fuchs
• What can statistics potentially tell us? What are the limitations involved?
• What are some of the different statistical models and methods that might be employed with relation to Talpiot?
• Evaluating Feuerverger’s results
• Statistical methods of evaluating the cluster of names in the Talpiot Tomb
• Are historical identifications crucial to historical analyses?
4:30pm – 6:30pm
Lifetime Achievement Award Joseph Gat
Panel Discussion:
Summing Up – What Have We Learned?
Presiding: I. Gruenwald
Panel:
James Charlesworth, Eric Meyers, James Tabor, Israel Knohl and Shimon Gibson
Name:Panluna •
Date: 01/15/08 22:41
A: Hi Indie,
It wil be interesting to see what the conclusions are---you know IF the tomb is considered the real one.I believe it is based on the evidence presented but it seems to that many Christians including some of my family members are having a diifficult time accepting the facts.I also think the Holy Bible should include all of the books.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/16/08 0:29
A: Hi Panluna,
You're right. It'll be interesting to read about the conference.
That the Jewish views of the afterlife is in the title of the conference was to be expected in part, but it still intreagues me.
If the "Nazareens" (as Dr. Tabor explains the first followers were called) felt that Jesus was part of an 'end of days' prophet, they might have thought 'the end' was near.
A Messiah was felt to be a number of things;
someone who could throw off the domination of the Roman Empire,
someone who could be king,
someone who could 'save' the Israelites.
The bone-box burial practice
( I heard in a clip from the New Testament Gateway Web Blog
http://www.ntgateway.com/weblog/ )
might have come from Rome.
That was new to me.
Some of what is known now about the Gosple of Marc is
farther along from what I learned about it back in the 70s.
The clips on the New Testament on the Gateway site are
not in order. Some seem to be missing...
I listened to them in the order they appear on the m e n u bar.
Tonight, I'll listen to them again and view the clip
in their 'content order' .
The young Londonian fellow that is the presenter packs
a l o t of info into the clips!
That's for sure.
Tomorrow, in Jerusalem, one of the talks is titled
"The Palestinian Jesus Movement",
a term I'd never heard before.
I assume it means specific to ancient Palestine.
Simcha speaks of the interdisciplinarity of linking epigrapher to archaeologist to statistician to historian...
Another 'interdisciplinarity' I find refreshing is simply seeing scholars of different denominations share and compare.
There was a bit of that in my day.
In the 70s, the Germans were still considered the true originators of the science of Bible exegesis.
The Jewish scholarly world and electronic computing have since had time to really come into their own.
One thing I am rusty on is the history of modern Hebrew.
I wonder how it helps, or hinders the epigraphy investigation.
From my history courses of long ago, I remember that when the State of Israel was created in 1948, a team of linguists worked hard to create a form of modern Hebrew language (from ancient Hebrew) that could be spoken in the new country (as Jews world-wide no longer spoke
a common Hebrew language, apart from readings of the Torah).
I don't know if the lettering on the ossuairies is that different from
modern Hebrew characters. I don't know if Arameic has the same
characters as Hebrew.
Lot's of details for my rusty exegesis brain to absorb.
Gotta go.
Ciao.
Indie
Name:Panluna •
Date: 01/16/08 18:41
A: The names on the ossuaries were inscribed (epigrams) in different languges.The bone-box practise of buriel occured for about a hundred years.The Romans cremated their dead on a funeral pyre and the practise of placing the ashes in urns originated with the Etruscans who were the original peoples of that Etruria/Tuscany region of Italy.They took the lands away from a snake cult called Oscans--or absorbed them and their religion which is still practised in these modern days.Their augeries were legendary and so was the practise of predicting the future.The ancient world and mind-set were intertwined to some degree as cultures invaded then were assimilated and the Romans spared anyone who didn't fight them and studied the tribes they conquered.If their historians did not write everything down and preserve the information then we would not know anything at all about ancient history or cultural differences.
The fact that the bodies were wrapped in a shroud and left to decompose for a year then in the "ressurection'/second buriel the skeletons were placed in a bone box/ossuary with their names inscribed indicates that they did not practise cremation for that hundred year period.What the buriel practises are now could be a matter of family choice.I think that the idea of the coffin originated from the ossuary practise.
As far as Jesus fullfiling the Messiah prophecy ---he did not according to Jewish /Hebrew ideology.The 'End Times will occur in several more centuries.It won't be Jesus either even though he did 'save' The world by teaching civil behaviour towards each other.You know forgiveness,love one another as thyself etc...he wasa pacifist who taught a spiritual way of living.and the series of events that occured in history with the guidance of the angels would not have occorred if Jesus wasn't of some importance,even though the idea of peace was carried out in a war-like power hungry manner.Somewhere along the line that beautiful spiritual God-given message was lost on most of the humanrace.Well the Catholic church has it's saints who were touched by God's Spirit and taught and lived by examples of piety that is misunderstood by those who are skeptics and who had their own agenda for world dommination.--well when we're worldly the weight is great upon anyone's shoulders--the spirit doesn't have these cares "look unto flowers of the fields--they neither toil nor reap and yet the Father in Heaven cares for them' he knows when a baby sparrow falls or when anything else happens' .Does that mean He/She is passive,neutral or withdrawn from our struggles and why? Does the Diety have the power to keep the bad things from happening?
Why did he let the baby bird fall? Lord only knows I took care of enough orphaned critters.Our societies are much more complicated than the natural and spiritual worlds.And we are finite and left to our own fates.And judgement at death--is that real or do we really end up in the same state grace and being?
When I had my near-death experience I got a glimpse of the after-life....but I'm here now. "yea though I walk through the valley of shadows and death I feel no evil for thou art with me....' I believe in spirit guides and angels but the most important thing is the gift of life and what we make of it.I'm New Age... and open-minded enough to understand and accept what suits me.I love history but there are still many questions of which the answers are a mystery.
We will see how this conference determines almost everything.The truth should be unveiled.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/17/08 2:52
A: Hi Panluna,
Thanks for the cremation, urn,Tuscany info.
Interesting.
I keep checking Dr. Tabor's page to see if he had written anything.
Nothing, since he pasted the program for the conference.
The conference is over now.
Can't wait to hear about it.
Indie
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/19/08 21:32
A: New link re Conference.
Doctor Tabor has post new links re the Conference.
http://jesusdynast-y.com/blog/2008/01/
Indie
.-
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/20/08 17:20
A: My take on 3 points of Dr. Tabor Jan 20th letter re Conference
1.
Was there a specific conclusion the the talks?
An official conclusion?
It cannot be said one way or another that the tomb is or is not that of Jesus of Nazareth.
More research is needed.
Let further research not be the focus.
( To which I add : - even Mr. Jacobovici is saying, in essence, lets get on with research. )
2.
Has the film been 'vindicated' ?
In the sense that Jacobovici wanted merely for scholars to finally look seriously at this tomb, the epigraphy of the inscriptions, the names cluster, yes, the film has been vindicated.
If a viewer sees the film as absolutely claiming that, without doubt, this is the tomb of the Nazarene, no, the film has not been vindicated.
I don't think the film makes that claim.
I think the film is a s k i n g if it could be possible to make such a claim. Big difference.
3.
Mrs Gat / An anonymous expert / In praise of Prof. J. Charlesworth, of Princeton, who organized the conference :
There was no big 'conspiracy' or 'covert up' in 1980.
There was valid reticence to look at the name cluster in a highly mediatic way.
I was in Jerusalem in late June and July of 1980, with an Old Testament exegete and a New Testament exegete. My professors had left Canada weeks before we students left, to set up our tour.
They stayed at the École Biblique in Jerusalem before we landed in Amman, Jordan to begin our tour.
My own professors, as with all new theories and discoveries in those days,
- did not have at their disposal the DNA testing technology that came later, they
- did not speak of statistical analysis by an expert in statistics,
- and the actual patina test done on the James ossuary, as I understand it, was developed d u r i n g this project, by a scientist who is agnostic, with no religious affiliation.
As my grand-father, the trapper would say :
If the ice isn't thick enough, don't be stupid;
don't cross the lake; take the long way around.
There wasn't a cover up. The bone boxes were not destroyed.
They've been sitting there.
Is Mrs. Gat right to say Dr. Gat was interested in ringing the bell.
If you were a European Jew who went to Israel after WWII,
and you found such bone boxes, would you be calling an
international press conference ?
I sure as heck would not.
Praising Prof James Charlesworth.
Yes, lets.
Thank you Prof Charlesworth for this wonderful conference.
Thank you for letting the need for further study become clear.
India Anna
.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/20/08 17:23
A: Correction :
Above, in point 1, you should read
"Let further research now be the focus."
Indie
.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/20/08 17:27
A: Typo, typo, again,
Above, one should read
Is Mrs. Gat right to say Dr. Gat was NOT interested in ringing the bell?
Name:Panluna •
Date: 01/20/08 18:03
A: Thanks Indie! it means more research hopefully with less media-hype.Are they planning to re-evaluate the obvious evidence and redo the testing? I think it's a good idea that the examiners be unbiased towards any religion. It won't influence the results if they are impartial.But I still feel that the news of the tomb's discovery should have been released to the world in 1980.The ancient buriel site would have been examined and acknowledged and then be preserved as a World Heritage Site just like the Pyramids and the Parthenon etc.
I've never been to Isreal so I have no idea what it was like in 1980s.Could you share some of your experiences and impressions?
Name:Panluna •
Date: 01/20/08 19:03
A: Well I just finished reading Dr Tabor's blog and related articles. WOW! I believe and knew that it IS the Tomb of Jesus and his family all along! It's so sad that Mr Gat did not live long enough to get credit and world recognition for finding the Talpiot but I do understand his fears at the time..My condolences to his widow and she was very brave for stepping forth with the information after her husband's death when she accepted an award posthumously on his behalf.it certainly answers why the information about the tomb findings weren't released to the world in 1980.
Now if they could only reveal the location of the last buriel site.I had a dream impression of where they were finally interred...May they rest in peace under the stars of Bethleham.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/20/08 21:44
A: My contact with post-WWII NE France culture.
My 1980 summertime in the Middle East.
Panluma. Hi! Thanks for your posts.
To answer your own observations :
- yes, I think a format request will be tabled and the IAA will be asked if continued processing of the tombs can go forward.
- I am curious to know what was said about the Chevron;
if it can be established that the Nazarenes considered they were
somehow under a new covenant of some sort, would that
technically qualify the tomb as non-Jewish? and allow
the Orthodox Jewish community to relax its rule about disturbing
tomb. Just a thought.
My contact with post-WWII north-east France culture.
As the child of a Canadian airman, I attended one of France's primary school, in the early 60s, lived in a French neighbourhood
(not on the base); had little French and German-French friends.
Grand-parents often lived with the families of my little friends.
I got to know a grand-ma and grand-pa or two, of German descent,
of French descent, who'd lived through the war.
They were senior citizens who had nothing but smiles for us children.
But they carried frowns and went silent when it came to talking about the war years.
One grand-ma rolled up her sleeve one day in the kitchen and I saw numbers on her arm. I was young, I'd never seen a tatoo before. We (my friend, her grand-ma and I all had our hands in flour in a big bowl and without thinking, I reached to touch her skin and asked if it was a telephone number.
My little friend went silent and her eyes grew big.
The grand-ma spoke to her grand-daughter in German and my little friend translated, saying simply
"It's from the war. Finished now. Not telephone number. "
The grand-ma gave me a gentle tap on my wrist, to continue mixing ingredients.
About a year later, my friend told me that of all her friends, her grand-ma liked me the best. I didn't think to ask why. I was a pleasant enough child. But, I wonder if it was in part because I was from a culture untouched by the cruelty of the war. Or maybe that my papa was an airman was reminder to her grand-ma of what the Allied Forces had done.
As a child of the Canadian military culture, I know something about cultural disconnectedness.
My siblings and I each have different accents in French and in English.
I thought mine was a culturally disconnected family.
When I was in Israel in 80, I noted how culturally and generationally disparate the Israeli population was.
It is easy for me to imagine Dr. Gat not sharing his thoughts with just anyone, about the names cluster in the Talpiot tomb. If he was born in 1940, or 1930, he was a young child during the war. Going to Israel after 1948 was NOT an easy thing to do.
To be European, in every essential way, and then to go live in the Middle East, was a huge change.
Its different now, for young men like Simcha and Shimon to slip into an Israeli identity. And in today's world, bi and multiculruralism is more a fact of life. But for those who went to Palestine after 1948, they were coming into contact with individual who, yes, had a certain religious and cultural history in common, but not ..., and I'm chosing my word here, ...not a 'grounded' common experience, and with people who did not have what I would call child-of-the-military multi-cultural skills.
And, the feat alone of taking ancient Hebrew and exploding it forward to be spoken again in modern times is an unbelievable feat.
Imagine, taking all Americans of Irish descent in the western US, taking them to Ireland, and within a generation, having everyone speak Gaelic, a language that is on the 'endangered' list, so to speak.
What European Jews did, in leaving Europe and going to Israel was an amazing feat.
I have refered to my grand-father who was a trapper, who said if the ice is thin, don't cross the lake on foot, go around.
Everyone in Quebec can relate to that, because the water on our land freezes in winter.
But Israel in the 50s, 60s, 70s, the 80s, ... heck still today, is a land of multiple cultures, especially in persons born before 1960.
In the younger generations of Israelis, there is a new, hybrid kind of culture, but still very young. Simcha is part of that.
But even he is Roumanian and Canadian.
I wonder if Simcha's seeming drive to do this tying together of historical threads is because of that disconnectedness.
Though from a Catholic familial tradition, as the child of an aiman, I can relate to cultural disconnectedness.
I can relate to a Mrs Gat who would wait till she felt the world would not fall apart by this news, to share what she shared. Simcha made that world for her.
I can see Dr. Gat not sharing with Shimon Gibson, a Brit from the younger generation, what some of his thoughts might be.
The grand-ma of my little friend in France did not want the past to come back.
Many of the world's Jews are now gathered in one place.
But the nation, the population still has many transgenerational
cultural disconnectednesses.
Where populations have lived for hundreds of years,
there is a "g r o u n d i n g " that I think some, not all, Israelis feel.
If Simcha was floored by Mrs Gat's statement, I am not surprised.
Not just Mrs Gat, but I think many older Israelis might have been sitting in their living room chairs, watching this young Simcha person and his little movie movement, and scratching their heads and saying to themselves
"Well, I wonder how this story is going to end?"
Many older Jewish citizens might well have been and are being quiet because they don't want controversy.
The strongest image I have of my Old Testament prof, from that summer of 1980 when I was in Israel, is of him saying (in regard to some new discovery) (it may have been the Talpiot name cluster, it may not have been),
"No, it's nothing."
We were having tea in the Souks in Jerusalem one night and I was listening to some American kid play his guitar. The conversation at my table was about some discovery. A journalist in my group, now dead, was asking our OT prof about this discovery. I was still very new to text analysis. I can't say what the conversation was about.
I remember only my OT prof's reaction to the journalist in my group,
saying : "No, it's nothing."
It could have been the Talpiot name cluster they were talking about.
My prof had been in Jerusalem in May and June, at the École Biblique, in contact with exegetes who lived in Jerusalem full time and whose life work was text analysis.
I can't imagine my prof not being aware of the 3-month old find.
Simcha says something in one of the clips on this site that rings so, so true to me :
he says if you are looking at something in a specific place, but expect with all of your preconceptions that you would find it in another, chances are, your brain will take a while processing what your eyes are seeing.
We all do that. We're sure we've left our wallet on the night stand.
We search for twenty minutes, and find it behind the tv, cause we bent down there to fix a wire when we got home, found it uncomfortable to be sqatting with a wallet in our jeans pocket, we took our wallet out, put it down and later never thought our wallet could be anywhere but where we usually put it.
We've thought for 2000 years that Peter died in Rome.
I saw a documentary a few years about the underground search for the tomb of Peter at the Vatican. I now smile when I am informed that his bone box may have been sitting in Jerusalem all along...
My happiest memory in Palestine was up north.
Walking in silence for a couple of hours on a portion of the road that follows the shore of Lake Tiberiad (Sea of G).
Just the silence of that walk.
Feeling only the sun on my shoulders, hearing water and boat noises.
I felt joyful there. Having grown up on a lake with brothers, fixed boats and canoes all my life, I felt a peace there.
Different sun sets.
In Canada, the sun goes down to the horizon at an angle.
Even in summer. Daylight dims gradually.
On the shores of Lake Tiberiad, when "night falls", ... man, it f a l l s! Like a stone in the water. Boom.
The sun's up.
The sun's gone.
It's black out.
Sound echos differently in a land of stone.
I am from a land of forests and hills.
Sound echos in a particular way in Quebec.
I was once in corn country in the US mid-west.
Totally freaked out when walking at night on a road in corn field.
The night is so black, the land is flat. No hills. No sound.
Nothing for sound to bounce off of.
had this feeling that some beast was going to jump out at me and eat me all up.
In Palestine, there are hills, , and stone, stone, stone, everywhere stone.
Sound bounces off surfaces in a different way.
Palestinian tea and humour.
My Palestinian bus driver told me a different joke every day.
He made me laugh. He sang for hours with the radio as he drove his bus. I missed Palestinian radio and his singing after I got back. He'd drop us all off at the sites we were to visit then he'd go park the bus by the desert or the water, sit in the shade and make the best tea I've ever had. He and the guide would sit at night under the stars and sip their tea. I'd sneak away and go sit with them and just listen to the chitchat in Arabic, read, sew my shoelaces, pick out words I understood.
We three, Christians, Muslims, Jews, we have to make it.
As a child, I arrived in France as the Berlin wall was going up (61).
Jericho, fall the walls in Israel. Is my prayer.
The only thing keeping us al from sitting and having each together, is dogma.
We have schools of literature.
We have faculties of history.
We have historians.
We have all we need to learn about one another.
Dogma is the only real wall.
So easy to get rid of for some.
Intee - mitl - oukht - eli.
You are - like - sister - to me.
I did read your post, and it is what we need to do, to understand each other and break the wall which was built between us for a very long time.
"We have ALL WE NEED TO LEARN about one another."
That is true. And we should not forget that is a blessing from God.
God gave us all what we need, from the biginning , and HE taught Adam ane Eve the words.
Recite in the name of your LORD who created - Created man from a clinging substance.
Recite, and your LORD IS THE MOST GENEROUS - Who taught by the pen - TAUGHT MAN THAT WHICH HE KNEW NOT.
No! , but indeed, man transgresses because he sees himself self-sufficient,
Indeed, to your LORD is the return.....Q- 96:1-8
THE PEN, which was the tool for all what we know today and for all the acheivements that man kind came with. And the only tool to bring the words of God to us.
Without the PEN , the words of Abraham and Moses and Jesus and Muhammad will be lost in the air.
Me, and you , and the others we have this tool of today (the computer) in front of us, which came originally from the PEN, we shoud use it to serve God, by following HIS words.
God bless you.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 01/21/08 19:08
A: Hi Sam,
I don't think I could live without my computor.It's a very helpful tool for research and comunication.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 01/21/08 19:49
A: Hi Indie,
I can understand that feeling of disconnectedness from cultural background.My parents immigrated to the US after World War 2 and I learned to speak French in high school.Between my two parents they spoke nearly 2 dozen languagesand dialects but only spoke English at home.My father was a chef and the only French culture I recieved was in food.If I ever went to France I think I would feel out of place.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/21/08 22:14
A: Monday Jan 21 08
Sam, Panluna. Hi !
The electronic PEN is something. Indeed.
Sam, thank you for your post.
I grew up with a mess of brothers.
I wellcome one more with gladness.
I just read Dr. Tabor's latest post.
I have the answer to one of my early questions.
I am sad to learn that there is no correlation btw
the ossuary catalogue numbers
and
ossuary tomb location based on Dr. Gibson’s drawing .
I had asked if the 3 boxes in the south east corner were those of
Jesus, Mariamne and Judah.
Only one of the niches had 3 boxes in it.
Also, I had wondered why the wives of other males in the tomb would not be in there. But, if the year 70 spelled total disruption of the society,
and, if it can be assumed the Nazarene was the first-born (and therefore the eldest boy), and, given the family was decimated, then it would explain the fact that the tomb had only 10 boxes.
In one of Dr. Tabor's earlier letters, his h y p o t h e t i c a l Jesus tomb was interesting in that is asked the question what would a hypothetical Jesus tomb contain?
I also found enlightening the explanation of the
“Principle of Falsification”, which, if I understand correctly, means that
" if a hypothesis survives continuing and serious attempts to falsify it,
then it has “proved its mettle'’ and can be provisionally accepted,
but it can never be established conclusively. "
I am grateful someone can put into words what only instinctually I can surmise. As I think back on what I remember of the culture in Israel in 1980, if I try to imagine what would have been the reaction then,
of a major "bringing to light" of the boxes,
I am glad the boxes 'slept' for 28 years.
Why?
Some of the reasons proposed during the Conference as to why the tomb 'cannot be that of Jeus' show that this reality is still hard to
grapple with.
You know, if someone came up with substantial (not absolute, but substantial) grounds for saying that E=mc2 needs to be corrected,
there is a mistake in the reasoning,
we'd all do a double take and say 'Impossible'.
I'm glad the boxes were simply shelved in 1980.
Our global culture, our technologies are better able to cope now.
But, still, this is hard to deal with.
Personnally, I can't wait to leave the dogma dark age.
We have pressing matters to attend to as a planet.
Birth rate (rising, falling), economies, child education,
energy, the environment.
I'm beginning a new project at work and will be less participative in this forum.
I will have been somewhat like a comet :
I arrived in late December and I departed in late Jan.
But, I will continue to read Dr. Tabor's letters and to visit this forum when I can.
I have enjoyed meeting you both and look forward to being able once again in the future to visit the forum on a regular basis.
This has been a wonderful pit stop for me, as I had not used my degree in theology for a number of years. I took it out of the closet and it got a good dusting off.
I am glad.
I have now listened three times on YouTube
to Dr. Beckfford's "Who Wrote The Bible".
For those who listen to it without the benefit of the exegesis courses I took back in the 80s, remember that with my 4 years of university studies, I am stil learning more each time I listen to it.
I'll be checking in again to this forum a couple of more times this week.
Then, it is back to work for me.
Holiday is over.
I had a nice time!
Godde bless.
Indie
.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/22/08 12:22
A: Jan 22nd, 2008 Tuesday
Trying out new terms
This is me, trying out new l i n g o I learned from the latest letter in
the JDB (Jesus Dynasty Blog).
If I correctly understood the meaning of the term
'principle of falsification',
then a bona fide or reliable 'falsification principle' (verification) might be tests along the lines of :
- knowing which bone box was in which niche
(like "Were the 3 boxes in the south east niche (loculi)
Jesus, Miriamne and Judah? " )
- having the b o n e s and they've been seet off to the paleo-forensics lab
Having such knowledge would constitute having
applied "falsifying principles", in other words, testing !
The IAA assigns a number to each ossuary.
Example : 80-500 .
(which probably means 1980, box number 500)
But, it is n o t known which box was where in the tomb.
So, without
catalogue-number- to-bone-box correlation,
we are
in the desert without a camel
up a creek without a paddle
on the plains without a horse
up a mountain without a rope
out at sea without fresh water
in the clouds without IFR
in a tomb without a corpse.
So. What's the next step?????
Duh.
How about e x p l o r i n g
(not excavating, to use the JDB suggestion)
the other Talpiot tomb?????
Which, for now, I'll call the s o u t h tomb, since
'the' Talpiot tomb of the documentary is to the n o r t h.
I mean, after all, Dr. James Charlesworth of Princeton, who sponsored the conference entitled the symposium
"Evaluating Talpiot in CONTEXT".
So, if I have my lingo right, the next good "falsification possibility" would be to explore the south tomb.
Wow. And I ain't even got scientific training.
How am I doing, Sam?
Bonne journée.
Have a great day all.
Indie
.
Name:sam •
Date: 01/22/08 14:31
A: Hi Sam,
I don't think I could live without my computor.It's a very helpful tool for research and comunication.
Hi Panluna,
I don't think I could live without my computor.It's a very helpful tool for research and comunication.
It might seem that I am repeating your words, but I am Not, because that is exactly what I think.
During the two weeks after my eye operation, which kept me away from the computer, I felt that I AM LOST . In the last few days, and with one eye I tried to sneek in for few minutes to read few words from my friends.
Losing most of the sight in one eye make me think, how can be my life if I lose all?.
God bless you.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/22/08 14:37
A: Eyes
Sam, glad you are better.
Indie
.
Name:sam •
Date: 01/22/08 15:34
A: Dear Indie,
I AM GLAD FOR YOU, AND I WISH YOU ALL THE SUCCESS .
It is pleasure knowing you, and talking to you through this forums.
I sometimes hopped that we meet, people like you and Panluna are like a GEM, and it is hard to let go.
Take care. I WILL MISS YOU WHEN YOU ARE NOT WITH US. {even for the short time}
God bless you
Name:sam •
Date: 01/22/08 16:08
A: Hi Indie,
"Wow. And I ain't even got scientific training."
How am I doing, Sam?
EXCELLENT .
The real science is, when the work done away from the influence of politic, religion and personal feeling etc.
God bless.
Name:sam •
Date: 01/23/08 17:16
A: Hi Indie,
"Let this gathering be the sign to all peoples.
The time is now for all men to join words.
Even, imperfect words."
THOSE ARE YOUR WORDS.
And really I wanted to join with you to speak my words, "PEFECT OR IMPERFECT", but not to talk "words......words" and waste time, {because we are responsible even for them, specially when it is about GOD'S WORD & THE HOLY BOOKS, (remember Jesus words-Mat-12:32)}
But to come to the truth of things in regards to the different faiths and believes, and you came with a post under this title:
"Sam & Indie's Bible-Coran sharing "
SHARING ?. THAT IS WHAT YOU WANT.
I did my part as you asked, and I tried to share with you some of what I know about the Quran (a lot of wrong thing said about it from the people of the churches (Benedict) and from others (Sinai desert etc.), specially the parts when it brings scientific information to prove that this book is not the work of Muhammad or any man but the word of GOD, and I supported everything with the words of the scientists (non of them Muslim) from the 21st century.
And I hopped that you FULFIL YOUR PART and share with me something of the scientific work from the Bible {old/new}, since all those who believe in this book claims the Bible hold scientific things, and you did not bring any. I the past, when I brought this question none came back with an answer, and one example from the N.G forums, when Joe Trusty (engineer- and church activist, Boston, MA, ) wanted to discuss the Bible "PRIVETELY !!!" through our mails, but he vanished after I asked him a very simple and logical question!.
This was the question:
"Do you think that some of what been writeen in the Bible {Genesis- 16:1 to 21:20} true or false?. Let me know."
I think he found the truth which he was blind to see it before, and he does not want to admitted !!!.
24:40 Or [they are] like darkness within AN UNFATHOMABLE SEA WHICH IS COVERED BY WAVES, UPON WHICH ARE WAVES, OVER WHICH ARE CLOUDS.
Darknesses, some of them upon others. When one puts out his hand [therein], he can hardly see it. And he to whom GOD has not granted light , for him there is no light.
That is the truth.
This question {abot Genesis} I will repeat it to again, wishing that one time I will get A TRUE AND HONEST ANSWER.
Only the truth can lead us to God . The false, for sure will leads to hell. "It shall not be forgiven Him (who said false against God), either in this age or the age to come......Jesus true words"
God bless you.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/25/08 9:50
A: .
Friday 3h18 a.m. Jan 25, 2008
My reactions to the recent exchanges between scholars
(in the last couple of days).
Dr. Charlesworth's symposium brought together specialists in different fields. Archaeologists, historians, statisticians, epigraphers, exegetes and theologians.
A very pertinent question is the following :
- which specialist should decide on what?
Many of us have had the experience of going from one medical specialist to another. When we are not well, something as simple as an allergy can fool different specialists and give our GP a difficult time figuring out the real source of our healt issue.
Some of us have experience the reality that we, the non-medical person, after we have been given the run-around from one specialist to another, find that we can better judge the source of our health issue.
Some of the post-Jerusalem symposium exchanges are not unlike this analogy. The doctors we go to, each brilliant in their field, do not have the advantage that we, the person with the health issue, have :
- the advantage of matching each doctor's statement to how we feel.
The thing to remember with the multifaceted issues regarding Talpiot, is that arriving at a determination will require the combining of knowledge from different fields.
Some of the post-symposium exchanges have shown that there are hiccups between the various specialties.
To go back to the allergy analogy, sometimes when we go back to our GP and she or he is going over results of tests, it occurs to us to say, after we've heard our GP offer a hypothesis for our symptoms, to say
" Yea, but, this doctor said such and such and I just remembered that the day I ate such and such, I was visiting my cousin who has 3 cats.
So I think it may not be a food allergy after all...'
What is happening is someone, the patient, is able to juggle all the various questions the doctors have asked, and we sometimes are the best person to be able to properly combine the data to obtain an accurate result.
The Talpiot results will require similar juggling of information to arrive at an accurate result. Or, as accurate as possible.
Keep in your brain the movie title "Spanglish" :
well, at the moment, scholars are looking again at the Greek-Brew nature of the name 'Mariamne'.
The other thing that is apparent is the need to let sink in what other specialists know. That settling process is needed.
If the choreographer has put together a dance involving
a classical ballet dancer, a tap dancer,
a ballet-jazz dancer, and
a figure skater,
that choriograher needs to know how to give time to the one,
who never points the toe, or give time to the other,
who never turns the foot like a penguin, to learn how the other moves.
My major during my degree in theology was historical-critical readings of gospel materials. Exegesis.
I could have majored in history.
I could have majored in theological thought.
I could have decided to learn Hebrew. Or Arameic. Or Greek.
I majored in exegesis.
An international conference on Carthage, a site in Tunesia, was held in Canada when I was doing my studies. I heard a man speak who had spent his entire career on jars made during a 300-year period.
The number of specialists involved when trying to get the complete picture of a specific time and place is mind boggling.
The latest letter on the JDB (Jesus Dynasty Blog) uses a term that can be understood by anyone who listens to 6 minutes of Dr. Beckford's documentary.
(His documentary last 107 minutes in all.
http://www.videosift.com/video/Dr-Robe-rt-Beckfords-Who-Wrote-The-Bible-107mins-.-
From the one hour mark, minute 60 to 1:06, there are 6 minutes on the Gospels of Mark and Matthew.
Listen to those 6 minutes. You will understand that Matthew takes a copy of Mark, edits it, to add onto it his 'Jewish' theological spin.
You will then be ready to understand a term in today's addition to the JDB.
That term is "Matthean theological gloss".
Also, today's addition to the JDB speaks of
" 200 years of insights ";
Dr. Tabor is refering to the work of exegetes, begun by Germans, and continued by others, including Catholic and Jews and Muslims, to do the work of literary analysis.
Consider what Jackie Kennedy and Churchill could each say about Charles De Gaules.
Jackie lived in Paris as a young journalist, before she married. She read French. Churchill's take on Charles De Gaules was that of an Englishman.
Jackie's take on Onasis, and Maria Calas' take on Onasis were very different...
M a r k, who was a member of a persecuted community of Christians in Rome, and M a t t h e w , a Jew had different takes on Jesus.
Simcha is not a specialist in Scriptures.
But he is right on when he says that the process of joining the dots is tricky. His genius was to propose an idea for dot joining.
Simcha is a level one dot joiner, if I may so speak.
Now, it is up to the experts to take the dot joining to level 2.
It seems, for a moment anyway, that the level 2 dot joiners are momentarily, perhaps because of the media pressure, to take the usual time and quiet they have, to let what the other specialists are saying, sink in.
I am confident that if they block out the media pressure and
if we, the reading public, give them room to be human and deal with the incredible pressure they are under, that they will be able to
"convert the steps to a dance", so to speak.
May Godde continue to bless these tired, jet lagged scholars.
Get some sleep guys.
We all can't wait. But, get some sleep anyways.
Indie
.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 01/25/08 16:39
A: I'm looking forward to the absolute results and answers.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/25/08 16:54
A: .
P.S.
http://forbidde-ngospels.blogspot.com/
Apri-l- DeConick's thought is interesting as well.
Indie
.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/26/08 11:46
A: .
Saturday 6h43
The ending song of the movie "Sum Of All Fears" is
"If We Could Remember"
The lyrics have a line that reminds me of one of the healing stories from the New Testament
I paste the lyric below.
Indie
Remember
If we could remember
The moment of our birth
We give our voice
to songs and whispers
And know what life is worth
Remember, remember
Suddenly there's beauty
In peace there's all the past
And sorrow clings to angry questions
The days of dust at last
And morning holds us
When worlds come tumbling down
A dance of ghosts and ragged dreams
Spinning round, spinning round, spinning round
I remember, remember
If we could remember
The power of the light
That cripple prayers
are sometimes answered
And hope survives the night.
And hope survives the night.
I remember, I remember, remember
.
Name:sam •
Date: 01/26/08 19:05
A: Hi Indie,
1- " Dr. Charlesworth's symposium brought together specialists in different fields. Archaeologists, historians, statisticians, epigraphers, exegetes and theologians."
----- I do not think that Dr. Charles... when adding the exegetes {who explain the scripture- right or wrong} & the theologians {who study the system of the Christian religion- right or wrong} to the other specialists was the right thing. It was just done to make the church people involved. and happy, {because they were not happy in the finding of the tomb or in any other finding before- the gospel of judas as example}.
We all watched and read what those people said and claimed, to go around the fact and to switch the truth.
{ They say , that the discovery of the tomb, PROVES THAT JESUS IS REAL!!!, this is a fact , and that everyone knows this fact, but they did not tell the truth that the finding of the tomb proves that Jesus never ascended in body to heaven and sat at the right hand of God, as it was written in the gospels, and this story was believed to be true by billions and for thousand of years.
The finding of the tomb of Jesus is an ARCHAEOLOGICAL discovery, and it should be studied and analyzed by scinetists from different fields, those who seek the truth only , and by bringing the books (the gospels), for those are the only one who brought all the stories about Jesus,away from the church people, who been known for switching the truth and their forgeries in the past are known throughout the history.
2- A very pertinent question is the following :
"- which specialist should decide on what?"
----- Here you brought your own analysis and took the "ALLERGY" & the "GP" as an example. and you said:
3- "Many of us have had the experience of going from one medical specialist to another."
----- First,The Health Problems which occur in the human body, are very complicated things, and while the Doctors today are doing miracle each in their own field still going to need more time to learn and advance. The surgery inside my EYE and to save it for me, was not available few years ago, and that is a miracle, adding to it the millions of operations all around the world, and saving millions of people lifes are miracles indeed.
You mentioned Allergy!!!. My wife is an ASTHMATIC, since shildhood,and she suffered a lot, and up to now there are no cure, but there are many medications for it (thanks to the doctors), and twice she nearly lost her life, Once (ten years ago) after been taken by ambulance to the hospital, and with my son standing outside the emergency room, we heard the words "WE LOST HER", I DON'T THINK YOU KNOW HOW WE FELT.
The specialists doctors saved her life.
For sure she knows of what she had, but that will not save her when the attack s comes, but the doctors did.
4- " something as simple as an allergy can fool different specialists and give our GP a difficult time figuring out the real source of our healt issue. "
------- The same thing, sometimes happen when you take your sick car to the car specialist to look for the car health problems, and they might change many part before finding what was wrong, and you know wht is wrong with your car but you do not know how to fix it, and that is only a car with few metal parts and each part is 100% known for what it performs.
5- Next, You talk about REALITY, and you said:
" that we can better judge the source of our health issue."
----- THAT IS AN ADVICE from an educated person who graduated from a catholic university in THEOLOGY and mastered in EXEGESIS!!!!.
That is a very dangerous advice. The REALITY, if people followed your advice and went into JUDGING the source of their health problems , then it will be late when they died just because of an HEADACHE or a HEARBURN, or a pain in their ASS etc.
That proves, that when the people of the churches comes with their theological ideas into the medical FIELDS or join the Archaeologists, or any other field of scienses they are going to kill it, and bury it under a ton of theolological works.
6- "Some of the post-Jerusalem symposium exchanges are not unlike this analogy. The doctors we go to, each brilliant in their field, do not have the advantage that we, the person with the health issue, have : "
------ LOGIC PLEASE.
- Brilliant doctors in their field....
- do not have the advantage that WE... !!!!!
- the person with the health issue, have....
{this means , that we know about our health problems more than the brilliant doctors, AND WE DO NOT NEED THEM !!!}
ARE YOU SAYING THAT THE PEOPLE WHO SEEK THE HELP OF THE MEDICAL COMMUNITIES THEY DO NOT KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING?.
ARE YOU SAYING, SINCE WE KNOW OUR HEALTH PROBLEMS, WE CAN SOLVE THEM, AND NO NEED FOR GP'S OR THE SPECIALISTS.
I think some of the followers who are theologists will agree with you, and they might come with more examples to prove it.
And their discussions and analysis will go back and forth for a very long time. and that what I call a turkey TALKS.
God bless you.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/27/08 17:10
A: .
Sunday, Jan 27th, 2008
Hi Sam.
I am so glad the doctors were able to operate on your eye.
Also, I am glad your son did not have to see his Mother lose her life to respiratory failure.
Thanks Godde.
Thanks Doctors.
Thanks medicine.
In most cases when we go to a doctor, then to a specialist, we find the right solution.
Many though, have at least one time in their life, experienced the confusion of seeing specialists for a health problem, and not been able to find a solution. Many of us have found that sometime, we are good judge to choose the right information.
But, I agree, Sam. I should not give the impression that I think that in general people should not listen to doctors. I hope a reader does not think that is what I believe.
As for your point, that the Jerusalem Symposium had as guest, exegetes and theologians, for the sole purpose of assuaging the Churches, I think you would agree that if many churches hold as doctrine that Jesus rose up with his flesh, then having a theologian or exegete at the Symposium to address that issue might be at least of interest.
I can understand your point that from a strict, scientific point of view, their presence might be seen as superfluous.
But, it is my impression that the specialist who created the patina test is agnostic. And, the tjeologian who organized the symposium explains that a distinction is to be made between
resurrection
and
ascension.
Dr. Charlesworth,
in the Discovery Press Conference
(90 minutes long)
http://dsc.discovery.com/co-nvergence/tomb/tomb.html
(liste-n- from minute 44 to 47).
He quotes the Bible, saying that Jesus entered rooms with closed doors after he rose from the dead.
He speaks of a body that is able to enter a room that is closed.
Obviously, in another part of the New Testament, John, I think, has Jesus having trout of the shores of Tiberiad, and "Doubting Thomas" touches the wounds of Jesus.
I am rusty enough on my Bible exegesis.
If my memory has served me correctly, and John is the Gospel that reports the corporeal Jesus eating trout at water's edge,
then I have to try and pull out from really dusty corners of my mind, that the Gospel of John, I think, I am not sure, is the Gospel that declares the divinity of Jesus.
Here is where I will venture to say that your position, that the Gospels are also, in their final editions, much controlled by an institution that is, it can be argued, far away in time and intent, from the Movement of the Nazarene.
Are there theological layers that must be peeled away and,
perhaps not discarded
(for as a student of history, I cannot deny history),
but, some layers, some layers of Biblical edition, I agree with you,
should be identified as part of
later institutional dogmatic constructions.
They should be identified as such.
So that the student of Biblical literature can "dig down in literary strata"
to the simple, beautiful, Jesus stories about forgiveness, solicitude, humility, ....
Indie
.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/27/08 20:39
A: .
I am pasting a portion of an interview on Jan 24th by David Horovitz of Dr. James Charlesworth.
(Dr. Charlesworth has been living in Jerusalem, on sabbatical and will remain there until April of 2008.)
Updated Jan 25, 2008 17:57
Article in the Jerusalem Post, by David Horovitz
Journalist-,- David Horovitz asked Dr. James Charlesworth the following questions :
Q : And that's what you're now going to set about doing?
A : Yes. I'm here till April. If we get a permit, I'm going to set up a committee, including [archeologist/anthropologist] Mark Spigelman... I plan non-invasive exploration... Contamination [of sites and their contents] has been rife in every archeological excavation. Now we have the insight of hindsight. We need to recognize what questions we have and how can we obtain the best answers. How, for instance, can we obtain DNA without contaminating it? We need to get the best minds. No one should be involved who has strong feelings, who think they know the answers.
And we need to ask :
1) Is the tomb related to Jews in the time of Hillel and Jesus?
2) Is the tomb related to people known in literature - in Josephus and the Mishna, in the New Testament and in rabbinic writings?
I'm convinced we'll never have definitive conclusions, but we'll have better questions.
We'll have a vastly improved historical reconstruction.
What is exciting for me is that we have Jews, Roman Catholics and Protestants working on this together, and their faiths are not a factor...
I'm on sabbatical at Hebrew University. I'm here. I'm open [to work seriously on this] if people are willing, and everyone seems to be willing.
Q : Can you elaborate a little on some of the wider context in which you're looking at the Talpiot Tomb.
A : We have more and more people, Jews and Christians, admitting that the "Palestinian Jesus Movement"
- something that was going on in Palestine, was relating to Jesus and was a movement -
was much more significant before [the year] 70 than we thought.
Almost everywhere you go
-at the Church of the Holy Sepulcher, at Ein Kerem, at Philip's Fountain-
you have Hadrianic structure.
Why would [Roman emperor] Hadrian have wanted to build something over celebration of the Jesus movement?
The provisional answer : He wanted to suppress it.
That's a fingerprint.
If he wanted to suppress it, it may have been significant.
The historical span is the period from 27 [in the three years before the crucifixion] to [the destruction of the Second Temple by the Romans under Titus] 70.
Why would there be such an interest in putting a stop to this movement?
It was the politics...
Jesus was clearly put to death by the Romans, not the Jews.
They thought he was leading an insurrection.
Jesus was surrounded by crowds - at the feeding of the 5,000, at the entry into Jerusalem.
That's a dangerous sociological institution ; people working together. If you're a Roman soldier, you see danger. There's something in the air that's very dangerous - the polemical ambience.
It was like a fire on which gasoline was being poured.
Jesus seems to know that open revolt against Rome would be disastrous - as indeed it proves in 70.
Jesus said : 'If they do this to the green wood, what shall they do with the dry?' He's the green wood, being taken to his death.
Jesus was warning :
Please be careful or everything will be destroyed.
In Luke, his followers talked of him predicting the destruction of Jerusalem, the greatest city ever built, with the greatest temple ever built.
We've found stones up to 570 tons [the 'Western Stone']!
The heaviest in the pyramids are 70 tons;
at Stonehenge, 35 tons.
A 100-ton stone can't be moved with wood, rollers, pulleys, brakes.
It's an amazing temple.
Archeology gives context to our text.
...
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 01/28/08 10:34
A: .
Dr. Charlesworth mentions Hadrian, an Emperor who build Greek building over Christian buildings.
Why is this significant?
Let's look at some dates :
H a d r i a n
Roman, born in 76 CE
Becomes Tribune of Mecedonia in 96
Serves in Trajan's wars in Dacia 101-106
Govenor of Syria in 114
Becomes Emperor in 117
One war fough during reign as Emperor :
- Jewish revolt in Judea, which he put down in 134.
Hadrian was a great admirer of Greek architecture.
He built great public buildings throughout the empire.
Dr-.- Charlesworth means that if Hadrian fought only one war during his reign, and it was to put down a Jewish uprising, and if Hadrian built Greek building on top of Christian building, then the importance of the Palestinian Church was bigger than previously thought.
Extracting new information from known historical facts,
arriving at new conclusions be reexamining known historical facts,
and revisiting what we know about Primitive Christianity in Palestine is part of what Dr. Charlesworth has been working on while on sabbatical in Israel.
He, and other scholars are continuing to extract information from known historical facts in order to build a hypothesis that can help us better understand Primitive Christianity.
Text analysis, exegesis, of all monotheistic religious traditions, can only help mankind to build better understanding of who we each are today, as Jews, Christians, Muslims, agnostics, humanists....
Indie
.
Name:sam •
Date: 01/28/08 17:48
A: Dear Indie,
1- “Text analysis, exegesis, of all monotheistic religious traditions, can only help mankind to build better understanding of who we each are today, as Jews, Christians, Muslims, agnostics, humanists.... “
----- That is wrong. Text analysis will not help MANKIND, never does and never will, if it is done in the old fashion way, by each tribe {Jews, Christians and Muslims} separating themselves from one another.
Each one of these tribes known already who they are (as a religion-text analysis-books, etc.), but non of them is able to learn or accept what came from the others analysis. People are somehow either under strict control (slaves) or blind in their minds and hearts.
Each tribe will say: “We know who we are, in regards to our beliefs” , “and our belief is strong and will not change, NO MATTER WHAT!!!!”, and the analysis which been going on among themselves, for long, long time hardly changed their minds in accepting anything else .
The most important thing In the text analysis is to come to the truth, First, the analysis should be done away from what we like or what we do not like (neutral way) and to be done in scientific way (facts & logic), Second, to accept the truth regardless if we like it or not, even if it hurts, and third the analysis should not be done to win or lose an argument, but to accept the others analysis with an open heart.
If we really want the analysis to HELP MANKIND , and bring people together, then we should open the doors to let the others in , and open the windows to get the lights in so each can see what his brother is presenting from thoughts and ideas.
“Jesus stories about forgiveness, solicitude, humility, ....” I add : “LOVE...PEACE”
IF WE UNDERSTAND JESUS WORDS AND FOLLOW THEM, THAT IS WHEN WE WILL COME TO THE TRUTH FROM OUR ANALYSIS,
AND, IF WE UNDERSTAND AND FOLLOW GOD COMMANDMENTS, THAT IS WHEN MANKIND WILL BENEFIT MOST.
God bless you.
Name:sam •
Date: 01/31/08 0:27
A: Dear Indie,
You mentioned the following points: “I can understand your point that from a strict, scientific point of view, their presence might be seen as superfluous.”
“But, it is my impression that the specialist who created the patina test is agnostic. And, the tjeologian who organized the symposium explains that a distinction is to be made between
resurrection
and
ascension
The ascension stories which came in the gospels are not real, and cannot be accepted from the point of logic.
And the resurrection stories as they came in the gospels can be doubted too.
Both the RESURRECTION and the ASCENSION are made up STORIES to complete the story of the CRUCIFIED of Jesus on the cross, in a way that have some reason for it
While ago, and under the post “ Was Jesus crucified ?” dated 05/16/07 , that is on page 4 of the general discussions. And I did bring this question, after someone brought the question “Was Jesus married?”.
There are many questions as you know , and all needs answers to bring the truth. And I think we will get the right answer at the end.
I did my own work, and the following is what I wrote:
My research which I am bringing here comes from many hours of reading and reading to those parts of the Gospels that presents the stories of the Last day of Jesus. And I do not claim that I am right, even when I did give an opinion about what I read, I might be wrong, Hopping that you correct me if that is the case.
Hopping that you answer my questions.
----------------------------------------
Here-- are the facts about Jesus:
J- 4:47 So Jesus said to him, “Unless you people see signs and wonders, you simply will not believe.” 50 “Go, your son lives.” 51 “his son was living”
L- 7:21 At the very time He cured many people of diseases and afflictions and evil spirits; and He gave sight to many who were blind. 22 and He answered and said to them, “Go and report to John what you have seen and heard: the blind receive sight, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, THE DEAD ARE RAISED UP....
L- 24:31 Then their eyes were opened and they recognized Him; and HE VANISHED from their sight.
Mat- 17:2 And HE WAS TRANSFIGURED before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light.
THE DEAD ARE RAISED UP....HE VANISHED ....HE WAS TRANSFIGURED ,
All those miracles were done in front of many of His followers and His apostles, and those are facts, but we should understand HIS WORDS when He said, “I CAN DO NOTHING ON MY OWN INITIATIVE” and “BUT THE WILL OF HIM WHO SENT ME.” Even His word is not His but, “THE WORD WHICH YOU HEAR IS NOT MINE, BUT THE FATHER’S (GOD) WHO SENT ME.”
You should remember those facts while reading the verses that been mentioned about Jesus last hours as taken from the NT.
For nearly 2000 years the story of the Apostle Judas who betrayed Jesus for 30 silvers, been accepted with no doubt, and he was the most hated man by the Christians, that is until the recent discovery of the gospel which was written by his supporters, which showed that he is the most loved and trusted one among the other eleven. But the churches and its followers refuse to accept anything that might effect on their old ways of teaching, it is a sort of honor for them, and they do not want to change, and any change might bring negative result, and might lead some to start digging for the truth as we see it now.
After the disappearance (Crucifixion) of Jesus, the story came to tell us that Judas committed suicide, and they gave their own reason, but no witness , did anyone think that he might be hanged by some who thought wrong about him, or hated him for other reasons, and those might destroyed all his possessions including his work and writing?.do anyone thought about the possibility that Jesus told him about His secrets and what is to happen if been caught by the Romans?.
The story tell us that Jesus was led by the Roman soldiers and surrounded by a crowd of people who hated Him, and I don’t think any of His followers among them, but maybe some came for curiosity, but kept watching from a distance. And when Jesus and two others were on the cross the were surrounded by the same noisy crowd:
“There were also SOME WOMEN looking on FROM A DISTANCE, among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the Less and Joses, and Salome.”MK.. 15:40“But STANDING BY THE CROSS, of Jesus were His Mother, and His mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.”J- 19:25
From a distance....standing by the cross ?
“A JAR OF SOUR WINE WAS STANDING THERE.... J-19:29 (in a place called the Skull)?
Here we have stories, told by three different witnesses:
1- Jesus said , “It is finished ” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit. J- 19:30
2- Jesus , CRYING OUT WITH A LOUD VOICE, said, “Father into Your hand I commit My spirit.” Having said this, He breathed His last. L-23:46
3- Jesus, cried out with a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, Lama sabachthani?, translated. “My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?. MK- 15:34
- Which one is true?
John said,
“And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and “he knows that he is telling the truth*”....J-19:35 (Here John saying, I trust him because he knows that he is telling the truth, but he did not tell who is witness )
“This is the disciple* who is testifying to these things and wrote this things, and we know that his testimony is true.” J-21:24 (* A disciple with no name .why?, because the one who told him is not the disciple, but someone else )
- when we see differences for the same story that means one it could be right, and the others not telling the truth, and they are making up stories?. But when we come to end of John Gospel we read this:
John- 21:25 And there are also many other things WHICH JESUS DID, WHICH IF THEY WERE WRITTEN IN DETAIL, I suppose that EVEN THE WORLD ITSELF WOULD NOT CONTAIN THE BOOKS THAT WOULD BE WRITTEN.
-The facts . Jesus spent less than three years in His mission. In the 2000 year since then billions of people are non stop writing, and they have more pens & papers, and they have more stories to tell but with all that the world is not full yet with books. John when claiming that shows himself that he is no different than the others who lived back then, who create unlogical stories, the Bible full of such stories. At that time people look at the person greatness from the points of his talk and what stories he brings, the logic hardly used.
The story goes on to tell us”
J- 20:1 Now on the first day of the week MARY MAGDALENE CAME EARLY TO THE TOMB, while it was still dark, and SAW THE STONE ALREADY TAKEN AWAY from the tomb.
- 2 So she ran and came to SIMON PETER and the other disciple....
L- 24:1 ..........”THEY CAME” TO THE TOMB bringing the spices.....
:2 ..they found the stone rolled away....
:3- they entered .....:4 - TWO MEN suddenly stood near them in DAZZLING clothing.
MK- 16:1 ...Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome...
:2/3 ....THEY CAME TO THE TOMB....they were saying to one another “WHO WILL ROLL AWAY THE STONE for us...
:4 LOOKING UP, they saw that stone had been rolled :5 Entering the tomb, they saw a YONG MAN sitting at the right, wearing a white robe; and they were AMAZED .
MAT- 27:50 Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.
:51 ......the earth shook and rocks were split.
:52 the tombs were opened, and MANY BODIES OF THE “SAINTS” who had fallen asleep WERE RAISED , (this story cannot be true. No one witnessed these things)
:53 ....THEY ENTERED THE HOLY CITY, and appeared to many. (There is not even one name of those who seen them)
MAT- 28:1 ...the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to look at the grave.
:2 And behold, A SEVERE EARTHQUAKE had occurred, for AN ANGEL OF THE LORD DESCENDED FROM HEAVEN and came and ROLLED AWAY THE STONE AND SAT UPON IT . (This is not a true story. Never been mentioned by the others)
:5 THE ANGEL SAID TO THE WOMEN “DO NOT BE AFRAID.....
A- AT THE TOMB:
J- 20:1 Mary Magdalene was ALONE.
L- 24:1 THEY CAME ... (that is more than one).
MK-16:1 Mary Magdalene, and the mother of James and Salom.
MT- 28:1 Mary Magdalene and the other Mary ( He doesn’t know exactly who is the other..)
Question-1: which one is telling the truth?.
B- THE STONE:
J- 21:1 The stone already taken away.
L-24:1 They found the stone rolled away.
MK-16:4 They saw the stone had been rolled.
MT- 28:2 AN ANGEL,,,,, ROLLED AWAY THE STONE AND SAT UPON IT .
Question-2 : Which one is telling the truth?.
C- THE ANGELS:
Matthew, ONE ANGEL sitting upon the stone (for sure that mean OUTSIDE the tomb)
(The angel seen by THE WOMEN)
Mark, ONE MAN (ANGEL), INSIDE, sitting at the right.... (AMAZED )
(The angel seen by, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome.)
Luke, TWO MEN (ANGELS), INSIDE, ..... (DAZZLING )
(The angels seen by, THE WOMEN)
John, TWO ANGELS, INSIDE,....one at the head and one at the feet, where Jesus the body of Jesus had been lying.
(The angels seen by Mary Magdalene only (J-20:11), after the disciples went away to their own homes (J-20:10)
Question-3 : Which one is telling the truth?.
D- THE APPEARANCE:
Matthew, 28: Mary Magdalene and the other Mary....Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet AND WORSHIPED HIM.Mark, 16: ... He first appeared to Mary Magdalene...She went and reported....Luke, 24: .... Two of them.... while they were talking and discussing, JESUS HIMSELF approached and began traveling with them.... BUT THEIR EYES WERE PREVENTED FROM RECOGNIZING HIM....Then their eyes were opened and THEY RECOGNIZED HIM; ans HE VANISHED FROM THEIR SIGHT.
Jesus said, “See My hands and My feet, THAT IS MYSELF; touch Me and see, FOR A SPIRIT DOES NOT HAVE FLESH NAD BONES as you see that I have.”
John, 20: She (Mary Magdalene) turned around and SAW JESUS standing there, and DID NOT KNOW THAT IT WAS JESUS .
Jesus said to her, “stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, “I ASCEND TO MY FATHER AND YOUR FATHER, AND MY GOD AND YOUR GOD.....and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, JESUS CAME AND STOOD IN THEIR MIDST...He showed them both His hands and His side. The disciples then rejoiced....
Therefore many OTHER SIGNS JESUS ALSO PERFORMED IN THE PRESENCE OF THE DISCIPLES, WHICH ARE NOT WRITTEN IN THIS BOOK...Jesus is the Christ, the son of God...
(Son of man or the son of God, which one is right?.)
Questions: 1- Did those people who wrote these stories understand the first commandment of God, “YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME.”
2- When they say that Mary Magdalene and the other Mary, “WORSHIPED HIM”, and, Thomas said “My Lord and My God”. Is that against the commandment of God and against Jesus word when He said,”NO ONE IS GOOD EXCEPT GOD ALONE....THE ONE AND ONLY GOD...THE SON OF MAN //THAT I AM HE....NOR THE ONE WHO IS SENT (JESUS) GREATER THAN THE ONE WHO SENT HIM (GOD)?.
3- WAS JESUS CRUCIFIED?.
Before answering this question, let us look at the power that God gave Jesus, (I can do nothing on My own initiative- so it is God power), the power that no one had before Him or after Him.
RAISING THE DEAD... VANISHING...TRANSFIGURED HIMSELF....CONTROL THE FISH IN THE SEA...TURNING A CLAY INTO A LIVING BIRD...STANDING AND WALKING WITH HIS DISCIPLES AND THEY DO NOT RECOGNIZE HIM, AND THE COUNTLESS OF OTHER MIRACLES.
A- It is possible that He might vanished when surrounded by His enemies?,
B- It is possible that God sent an angel to replace Him, or Jesus Himself created one that looks like Him?, (it happen before)
C- If the story about seeing Mary Magdalene first and alone is correct, Is that means that He showed Himself to the one who worried about Him most (specially if she is His wife and had a son), and the chosen one whom He trusted to keep His secrets?.
D- “See My hands and My feet, THAT IS MYSELF; touch Me and see, FOR A SPIRIT DOES NOT HAVE FLESH NAD BONES as you see that I have.” Is that show the truth that He is among them In flesh, and nothing happen to Him, there are no scars to show that He was harmed or crucified?.
Before centuries ago, most of the books which hold the truth been burned, even those belong to the disciples . And the books which were written by the four (Mark & Luke never met Jesus and they are the students of Paul) are influenced by Paul teaching and his ideas.
Now and after 2000 years many discoveries came, and because the truth will never die, things started slowly to become clearer, specially because we live now in the age of freedom, and that we can look at things and discuss it without been afraid from those who rules and makes the rules.
After all the late discoveries, people started to question the unquestionable, and many in doubt about what the truth is. But the truth is there if you look for it you will find it.
“SEEK, AND YOU WILL FIND” This is the truth.
The Quran brought a lot of example and information and said:
38:88 AND YOU WILL SURELY KNOW THE TRUTH OF ITS INFORMATION AFTER TIME.
And the Quran told us the story of Jesus last hour:
4:157 And [for] their saying, “Indeed, we have killed the MESSIAH, JESUS, the son of Mary, THE MESSENGER OF GOD.” And THEY DID NOT KILL HIM, NOR DID THEY CRUCIFY HIM; but another WAS MADE TO RESEMBLE HIM * TO THEM.
And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except THE FOLLOWING OF ASSUMPTION . And they did not kill Him, FOR CERTAIN.
Questions:
- Do you believe in Jesus miracles of the VANISHING, DISFIGURATION etc.?
-Do you think that God will let any harm to come upon his messenger, and from the people who do not respect God or believe in HIM (Jews & Romans).?
- Did you know the stories of saving the other messenger by God, Noah -Abraham - Isaac / Ishmael - Moses, etc.?
- Then, can Jesus with the power given to Him by God, VANISHES from the surrounding crowd and disfigure someone from those who hated him, to receive the punishment of God ?.
If we believe in God miracles, can we believe in this miracle too, which is less than the miracle of the creating of life on this dead earth ?.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 02/02/08 14:41
A: .
Hi Sam.
Hope your Saturday is good.
I am very busy at work. Not much time to read posts or write. But I wanted to reply to your post.
I pasted it into a word document and made the font bigger.
You wrote :
“The ascension stories which came in the gospels are not real, and cannot be accepted from the point of logic.”
I was surprised to read this, because I thought Muslims believed that the Dome of the rock is a holy place because the founder ascended into heaven from that spot.
To the questions
“Which one is telling the truth?”, I must answer :
- each Gospel writer has a theological agenda. Dr. Beckford’s YouTube video is devoted to the New Testament from about the Minute 59 mark, and on to the end of the 107 minutes of the documentary. Many of the differences you raise are explained in that video.
As for the Quran saying that another was crucified in Jesus’ place. I had never heard that. I find that a most surprising statement, for more than one reason, not the least being that Jesus would allow that to happen.
History is replete with individuals who gave their lives, dying for a truth they believed in. What you are suggesting is that Jesus lived out his life and let another human being die in his place.
Indie
.
Name:sam •
Date: 02/07/08 21:37
A: Hi Indie,
" FOR A SPIRIT DOES NOT HAVE FLESH AND BONES as you see that I have.”
---Is that show the truth that He is among them In flesh, and nothing happen to Him, there are no scars to show that He was harmed or crucified?."
A- It is possible that He might vanished when surrounded by His enemies?,
B- It is possible that God sent an angel to replace Him, or Jesus Himself created one that looks like Him?, (it happen before).
-- { TURNING A CLAY INTO A LIVING BIRD, even when He was a child}, are those an evidence ?, and for Him to be beyound their reach?.
RAISING THE DEAD... VANISHING...TRANSFIGURED HIMSELF....CONTROL THE FISH IN THE SEA...TURNING A CLAY INTO A LIVING BIRD...STANDING AND WALKING WITH HIS DISCIPLES AND THEY DO NOT RECOGNIZE HIM, AND THE COUNTLESS OF OTHER MIRACLES.
Are all those not enough proof to His power, the power that GOD gave to Him?.
Are you denying all that , and denying what came in the Quran, just because you want to keep the wrong things which were told by Matthew and Mark etc., as it is the truth, even their stories in the gospels are full of contradictions and errors and cannot be trusted to be reliable (Bishop J.S.Spong). and those who wrote stories of Jesus and the devil on top of the mountain !!!, are those not enogh evidence for you to doubt their stories. So do you insisit in believing in their stories, and their stories has no fact in them, while you doubt the story of Jesus in the Quran and the words in it was proven to be true ?!!!.
Other than the words of Jesus (the words from God), there is nothing to prove that the words of the others in the gospels are from God, because God never gave wrong information or false stories.
While the Quran proven to be the words of God by the many examples and prophecies which were proven by the knowledge of the 21st century to be correct and true.
Of course you claim some as wrong (the Sanai-desert things), but you did not GIVE much attention to the others {waves upon waves...the piercing star etc.} and you did not answer my question about THE HELPER WHICH JESUS GAVE HIS PROMISS TO SEND AFTER HE GO ???. I do call that, running away from accepting the truth!!!, because, you are living in the darkness, and here again the truth come by the book which you will never accept, even when its information came to be true after 1400 years:
Q-24:40 Or they are like DARKNESSES WITHIN AN UNFATHOMABLE SEA WHICH IS COVERED BY WAVES, UPON WHICH ARE WAVES, over which are clouds....
"As for the Quran saying that another was crucified in Jesus’ place. I had never heard that."
--All that because you ,and all the people of the churches, for the last 1400 years never wanted to read the Quran except to falsify it, and make wrong stories about the prophet !, that is exactly what happen, when the Jews falsify the message of Jesus and tried to kill Him. And Jesus was right when He said:
John- 8:40 ".....You are seeking to kill Me, A MAN (Jesus) WHO HAS TOLD YOU THE TRUTH, WHICH I (Jesus) HEARD FROM GOD...."
The Quran is the word of God, the prophet never claim that the Quran is His words, and that is why the prophet words kept away from the holy book. The Name of Muhammad came only 5 times, while the name of Jesus came 33 times and Mary 34 times, Moses 136 times. The words of the Quran prove that the Quran not the word of the prophet :
Q-39:41 Indeed we sent down to you the book for the people in truth. So whoever is guided - it is for (the benefit of) his soul; and whoever goes astray only goes astray to its detriment. And YOU ARE [Mukammad] NOT A MANAGER(i.e., authority) OVER THEM.
Q-4:79 And we have sent you, to the people as a messenger, AND SUFFICIENT IS GOD AS WITNESS.
Q-29:18 If you people deny the message - ALREADY NATIONS BEFORE YOU HAVE DENIED.
And there is not upon the messenger [THE PROPHET MUHAMMAD] except the duty of notification.
Q-4:80 He who obeys the messenger has obeyed GOD; but those who turn away , WE HAVE NOT SENT YOU OVER THEM AS A GUARDIAN.
Q-17:54 ...and we have not sent you, OVER THEM AS A MANAGER.
So, GOD told Muhammad to say,
Q-18:110 SAY, “ I am but a man like yourselves......”
ALL THE PROPHETS { Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus} CLAIMED THAT THEY ARE A MESSENGERS FROM GOD, AND THEY SPOKE WHAT GOS TELLS THEM TO SPEAK, AND THEY NEVER CLAIMED THEIR POWER OF DOING MIRACLES FOR THEMSELVES.
[I CAN DO NOTHING ON MY OWN ININTIATIVE...Jesus] ...[THE WORD WHICH YOU HEAR IS NOT MINE...Jesus]
John- 16:13 [BUT WHEN THE SPIRIT OF THE TRUTH, COMES {that is about the prophet who will come after Him, and the one the father (GOD) will send}
He will will guide you into all the truth; FOR HE WILL NOT SPEAK ON HIS OWN ININTIATIVE, BUT WHATEVER HE HEARS, HE WILL SPEAK (#1); {That is exactly as the case withJesus, and the prophet Muhammd He did not speak on his own initiative, but whatever came to Him from God by the angels, the knowledge which came in the Quran far beyond of the knowledge of any man of that time, and even Moses and Jesus and Muhammad had no clue about it, since all of them believe that THE EARTH IS FLAT etc.},
HE WILL DISCLOSE TO YOU WHAT IS TO COME. {If we go back to #1, we will find that what the HELPER WILL DISCLOSE IS JUST WHAT GOD ALLOW HIM, NO MOR OR LESS.}
J-16:14 HE WILL GLORIFY ME .{of course that will be by the word of GOD, remember #1.
Q-3:45 [And mention] when the angels said, "O MARY, INDEED ALLAH (GOD) GIVES YOU GOOD TIDINGS OF A WORD FROM HIM, WHOSE NAME WILL BE THE MESSIAH, JESUS, THE SON OF MARY, DISTINGUISHED IN THIS WORLD AND THE HEREAFTER AND AMONG THOSE BROUGHT NEAR TO ALLAH (GOD).
Q- 3:46 HE (Jesus) will speak to the people in the cradle and in maturity and WILL BE OF THE RIGHTEOUS.
Q- 3:42 And [mention] when the angels said, "O MARY, INDEED ALLAH (GOD) HAS CHOSEN YOU AND PURIFIED YOU AND CHOSEN YOU ABOVE THE WOMEN OF THE WORLD.
A- Jesus: "DISTINGUISHED IN THIS WORLD AND THE HEREAFTER AND AMONG THOSE BROUGHT NEAR [TO ALLAH (GOD)."
---- do you know what that means?. It means that there is none in this world and not after this world more distinguished man in the sight of God than Jesus, and that is the GLORY coming from THE HELPER.
B- Mary: "CHOSEN YOU ABOVE THE WOMEN OF THE WORLD."
---- do you know what that meanS ?. It means that from all the women of the world Mary the only one purified , and chosen by God to be the mother of Jesus (of cource you will agree with that), but here again THE GLORY IS FOR JESUS AND NOT FOR MARY, AND CAME FROM GOD IN HIS WORDS IN THE QURAN WHICH WAS DELIVERED BY HIS ANGELS TO HIS PROPHET MUHAMMAD.
The stories about the last hours of Jesus and the sufferings and the crucifiction by the unbelievers from Jews and Romans are not only a humiliation to Jesus but to the almighty God.
The truth came to us by the words of the HELPER which Jesus promissed to us and the one who been sent by God .
"I find that a most surprising statement, for more than one reason, not the least being that Jesus would allow that to happen."
Dear Indie, did you forget what Jesus said {I CA DO NOTHING ON MY OWN INITIATIVE}. Jesus has no power by Himself, and the first word and the last word is for God, the God of Jesus who sent Him.
God will not allow a bunch of Jews and Romans to have the upper hand over HIS 'DISTINGUISHED ' prophet, and to humilate Him and to put Him on the cross with the thieves.
Throughout the history God helped and protected HIS messengers, and Jesus 'AMONG THOSE BROUGHT NEAR TO ALLAH (GOD)' to HIM , will not be left alone.
God bless you.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 02/08/08 1:28
A: .
Thursday evening, Feb 7th, 2008
Hi Sam. Thank you for the post.
I am only sorry that I can't take the time to read it at this time.
I am into a new project at work now and can't spend much time reading posts. But, I did want to poke my nose in for a moment, just to say hello.
Since this whole Talpiot event occured (since Nov 07 as far as I am concerned), my rusty and long forgotten Bible knowledge has been getting shaken up. You have challenged me (as have others) and I am finding two things :
- I am not as informed as I thought I was about matters religious;
- I am very out of date in my knowledge of the research of recent years.
I have enjoyed learning from different sources about recent work and scholarship, but, as well, I am grateful for what I have learned from individuals who have followed their own spiritual paths, unconventional and conventional.
I'll will try to visit the forum on a regular basis, even if I can't contribute much for while.
All the best,
Indie Anna.
.
Name:sam •
Date: 02/08/08 14:22
A: Dear Indie Anna,
Wish you all the best for your new project, and thank you for the moments you gave me in sending me your message.
I always look forward to see and read your words.
God bless you.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 02/10/08 19:10
A: Sam,
Everyone of Jesus's miracles exist in the words of the NT.When Jesus died ALL of his "miracles' died with him--according to the Gospel of Mary Magdalene.Words can immortalize someone. And so can a decree.Also I have seen people 'light-up' with an inner glow.And I have been in a crowd when a hypnotist made everyone one see storm clouds and lightening forming over head when in reality there wasn't a cloud in that sunny sky.The show took place in Hawaii.
Name:Panluna •
Date: 02/10/08 19:37
A: IndieAnna,
Good luck with your project.We can learn somethig new everyday.If we knew everything life would be boring.Keep in touch...
Happy Valentine's Day.My husband and I will be celebrating our 30th anniversary on that day.Only one of my sons will be home.My youngest son will be deployed soon for his 2nd tour of duty.He's getting to see an area of the world that I've wanted to see.And I'll get more grey hairs worrying about him.
Pray for world peace and actively work towards that goal after all ---LOVE conquors all...and God so loved this world..and it's in his words.Believe.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 02/11/08 23:35
A: .
Panluna,
Happy anniversary!
I will pray for your son. I'm the child of a career soldier. But I know only in part what you experience with a child in the armed forces and deployed.
I will also feel I have company in my prayers for an end to military conflicts. Computer technology was a revolution. May someone invent a cheap, environmentally friendly, and renewable energy source, and take away the need for oil...
Indie
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Name:sam •
Date: 02/14/08 15:05
A: Dear Panluna,
Our prayers goes for your son, and for all the brave men and women who serve their contry, and we pray that they will return to their families safe, and soon.
HAPPY 30th anniversary .
Love & peace is our wish for the world, in this day.
God bless you and your family.
sam
Name:Panluna •
Date: 02/26/08 20:28
A: Thank you for your good wishes and prayers.
Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 07/18/09 6:00
A: .
Tonight , I enjoyed re-reading some of the posts on this page.
Wonder if the IAA will allow access to Talpiot again...
Indie
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Name:QuebecIndieAnna •
Date: 07/17/12 18:55
A: .
Tuesday July 17th 2012
Hello Friends.
I last visited this page on July 18th 2009, three years ago;
I created this page over 4 years ago, on Jan 13th 2008, as Prof. Charlesworth's symposium on Talpiot was getting underway.
Last night, for the first time, I was able to finally watch the documentary on the "Jonah Ossuary". The documentary did not air on the Canadian Discovery channel earlier in 2012.
My brother taped it for me.
For those of us that sit as spectators to the unfolding news out of Talpiot, we 'get caught up in fits and starts'.
It is fun for me to have time to revist and read new articles on recent work.
It is nice to be on summer break.
As I re-read some of the posts above, I am struck by how excited I was as events were unfolding in Jan of 2008.
...While in East Jerusalem in 1980 weeks after Talpiot's Chevron tomb was discovered, my Old and New Testament profs spoke in hushed voices about 'their stuff'. They would stop talking when I would try to sneak up on them to listen. I think now that my OT prof was more concerned with trying to bring me back into the RC Church. He was careful to not share too much about controversial issues.
I checked with him last summer and asked what the big secret was about, way back, during our 1980 Jerusalem summer.
A wall. A wall had been re-dated. It changed and shook up a lot of what he had taught for years to students in one of his OT classes.
My OT prof seems to have moved on in his interests. He is retired now... He has not kept up with recent news (since 2005).
Has anywone who speaks French ever gone over to the École Biblique in Jerusalem, and talked with some the older scholars who were there in 1980?
The Jonah ossuairy. The documentary.
Watched it for the first time last night.
As they say, truth is stranger than fiction.
You couldn't make this stuff up, I said to my OT prof.
He raised his eyebrows slowly once and said, 'Well, actually, some scholars have been proven to create forgeries, to get grant moneys, to change history, to protect interests....
He would question the chronology of events; first they find a 'Jesus' box, then a 'resurrection' box? Too convenient.
I disagree. I remember being awakened at 4 a.m. by construction crews that summer. It was a busy construction season. I believe that tombs were being found and covered up quickly so building could continue. I believe that snooping around and sinking a camera down an air vent can take researchers into tombs that have been untouched for 2000 years.
I believe more written information on boxes exists in tombs under buildings in East Talpiot.
But, the Jonah tomb is not 'untouched' in the rigourous sense of the word. In 1981, people did go into the tomb. They photographed the boxes.
I have questions :
- why was the Jonah box not put back in the loci it was found in?
- were the bones of the Jonah tomb removed in 1981, for re-burial?
- why were the bone boxes of the Jonah tomb only photographed?
- why were the bones boxes of the Jonah tomb not also taken to the IAA in 1981, when the tomb was first opened?
- is there information available on the people who entered the Jonah tomb in 1981?
- have their statements been recorded somewhere?
- will patina tests on the Jonah tomb boxes be performed?
- is there a way to get the electrons in the Jonah tomb to speak? Will they confirm that the boxes all come from that tomb?
