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Name: gnotcivulf • Title: The Skulls At Tomb • Date posted: 03/12/07 8:18

Q: Greetings everyone. First off, I claim to be no authority in archeology, symbolism, but do fancy myself as an arnchair biblical scholar (think secular). So what I am about to present for discussion is based on my amateur curiosity. If anyone else has already presented this, please inform me and drop the matter altogether. I admit, I have not kept up with any new data (work schedules be damned).
To be honest, I have not seen the documentary... but I have read the book. There are two things that bugged me, namely, the arch and circle at the entrance and (more so) the placement of the three skulls. If we are to assume that there is a significance to these (as did Yosef Gat to Shimon Gibson), then WHAT? This bugged me so much that I looked at the map made by Gibson and re-read the book and cross-reference with some other books dealing with Masonic symbols and history. Finally, after wracking my brain as to why I felt so annoyed with this, I saw that one of the skulls was placed in a corner as opposed to a center wall as the other two. This corner stone skull was longer in distance than the other two, implying a true "top point". Using Gibson's true North Reference on the upper left corner of the map, I turrned the book so I could see the true orientaion of the tomb. And looked at the skulls again.
There it was... the skulls now formed an inverted V! The symbol of the female, the ruler of the freemason seal, the spiritual half of the star of David.
I am of the opinion, pending more data of the history of the tomb, that this was intentionally done as a marker not as remnants of a ritual (as far as I know, there are no Jewish skull rituals that I know of).
Any thoughts? Is this absurd? Pro and con, I reaally want to know. Thanks all.

Name: Delyn • Date: 03/12/07 15:59

A: I'm interested in what this means with the skulls. They also must have photographed the inscription scratched on the walls, but we heard nothing about what these could mean. Was this done in other tombs?

I asked the experts this question, but I didn't receive a response.
Had this tomb been broken into before the 1980's or it had been sealed for 2000 years?

There is just way more information we need and the IAA should show us the papers.

Name: gnotcivulf • Date: 03/12/07 18:58

A: Thanks for the input, Delyn. The inscriptions are also a curiosity. But what I find equally interesting is the dots that seem to be connecting with the templars and the masons (Simcha seems to think so, anyway). I mean, Simcha and the rest are mostly putting forth such theories (on top of the Baigent and Dan Brown ilk). With the question of the skulls, it doesn't seem an unlikely theory. Again, it's all based on the notion that Jews would not treat their dead that way!
At the tomb at Talpiot, we have the royal arch at the entrance and an arch formed at the ground (bottom) inside the tomb (disregarding the Northern orientation I put forth earlier, the corner skull indicates a slanted arch/triangle). Marry these two arches and you happen to have the mason's seal: the compass and ruler: the royal arch on top of the priestly arch on the bottom. Just replace the circle at center with a G. Simcha points out that the tomb was broken into at some point in antiquity and seems to want to link the templars to it. If so, then why not have them leave their "calling card"? Vandals and looters wouldn't go through the trouble of placeing the skulls in that fashion.
On a last note, what about the so-called "Pontormo's Code" that Simcha also puts forth. I'm looking at the color print of painting "Supper at Emmaus" provided by the "Jesus Family Tomb" book. Aside from the "All-seeing Eye" connection, did they ever point out the SKULL at the lower left corner of the painting? Or the parchment on the floor?
All I'm saying is, if we are invited to play "Pontormo's Code" why not go all in? It's entertaining for me, at the very least :).

Name: lightwoman • Date: 03/12/07 19:20

A: "Simcha points out that the tomb was broken into at some point in antiquity and seems to want to link the templars to it. If so, then why not have them leave their "calling card"? Vandals and looters wouldn't go through the trouble of placeing the skulls in that fashion."

gnotcivulf, especially in re your last sentence above, you make an excellent point! It shows some sort of non-Jewish ritual was carried out in this tomb - WHY? Goes to show, this tomb needs to be researched further, no "bones" about it. No matter what the results. Thank you.

Name: Messiah • Date: 03/13/07 0:16

A: It's quite obvious that this whole thing is just a teaser to begin the debate. Of course they have loads of things stacked waiting for the right moment to release to get as much payoff as possible. Think big... Maybe this isn't even the starter, there have been loads of intellectual creations that surfaced the past few years.

One thing that I'm sure about. If the tomb is the real thing, then I say it must have been guarded by the templars and their off springs. No one else would have had the ability to keep it a secret for such a long time. Otherwise had all pieces been stored in the secret cambers of the Vatican years and years ago - and never been exposed to light again.

/M

Remember, remember the fifth of November....

Name: gnotcivulf • Date: 03/14/07 6:39

A: Messiah though I mostly agree with you, the fact remains that we have taken the bait, hence why we are here... *sigh*. I hope that I share the sentiment that, at the very least, we are all here to seek the TRUTH (not what Dogma for the past 2,000 years has proclaimed).

Name: Messiah • Date: 03/14/07 9:39

A: gnotcivulf, I think you are one the correct track in your thoughts and aims. However, what is common truth in situations were culture's differ? I think we both seek the same answers, but I also think that our path is a lot more complicated than just seeking the TRUTH.

Someone said: "There is only one truth and countless amounts of lies" and did you know that among the early christians "God" was explainable thru logics. If "God" is the single TRUTH, I think we're on track in our search for the answer we need. However, I do not know if it's the answer we wan't.

/M

Name: SpiritWoman • Date: 03/14/07 12:31

A: Greetings All,

I have already seen the relationship of the Skulls and it's possible connection to the Templars, but until the bones are re-covered for date and DNA testing, we can only guess and never really know the truth.

In doing research over the years, I saw a relationship of the skulls and thier placements very interesting and a definite link to the Templar History. As you see in various christian paintings dating back in time to the birth of Christinity that Magdelene is painted by various artists as appearing pregnant, with skulls, books, crosses, and in cave like scenery, which would coincide with a tomb or like the myth of her living in caves til the end of her life in France. Now throw in the myth of the Templars worshipping heads or skulls and what do you have?

Of course the Church or historians always attribute these paintangs as the Penetent Magdelene as time goes by, I find it more or less the artist depicting her as a guardian, a watcher and keeper of a deeper mystery in the more ancient paintings of the early 14 and 1500's.

Go ahead Google Magdelene & Skull and see how many artists have depicted this.

Here's an interesting website; http://www.perillos.com/gimenez.html

I find it a bit vexing that they did not transelate the words engraved inside the tomb for the Docudrama, but did find the time to transelate the Ossuaries.

So yes, I agree they have more tastey treats to eventually release to the public.

Peace
SW

Name: Messiah • Date: 03/14/07 21:12

A: Right on target, SpiritWoman! Whom ever is behind this better have an agenda of the same magnitude as the story itself. As also gnotcivulf point out, there is a 2000 year riddle hidden here, which can't be mismantled just by doing simple intellectual calculations.

Prosparity, vanity, greed and so on can't be the agenda as a story like this one at the same time grants for at least 2000 year of calculations of the intentions behind it.

I say there is something big coming up, even if the ones behind it probably will spend years uncovering what, to ensure everyone is on the same track. In the end it won't matter if it's a truth or a made up story. It's up to us, the interpreters of it, to judge.

I'll add a line from The Inevitable Dossier prolog, which is highly related:

- “I define anomos acts as the basic fundament of mankind’s evolution. Their expressions illustrate the importance of the subject in matter.”

/M

Name: Marc • Date: 03/14/07 21:49

A: Hi all,
Wow, quite an intellectual thred here. Love it! About the three skulls: Did I miss anything when I recall no discussion about them in the movie. They were just on the drawing, animation and remake of the excavation scene from 1980. But no mention of them?

- Marc

Name: BornAgain • Date: 03/15/07 6:05

A: Agree with you all on this one. There is some sort of setup for sure. I just wonder who did it and what the idea behind it was. The movie clearly show trillions of simulair tombs and those would have been documented also, when found. Any skulls in them? Is it a common thing, these skulls?

The key is hidden in the skulls, thats my clue!

- Marc

Name: gnotcivulf • Date: 03/15/07 19:42

A: (gnotcivulf getting on soap box)

Messiah's quote:

"Someone said: "There is only one truth and countless amounts of lies" and did you know that among the early christians "God" was explainable thru logics. If "God" is the single TRUTH, I think we're on track in our search for the answer we need. However, I do not know if it's the answer we wan't."

So true... it reminds me of a line in (approriately enough), Jesus Christ Superstar:

Pilate (to Jesus) "We all have truths, are mine the same as yours?"

That was a great musical... like Hair.

But, I'd like to think that reaching the truth is the higher purpose to all of these exercises (posting, research, debate) that everyone (religious or not) strives to. We are testing all of our truths,are we not? Because, eventually, by eliminating all the lies and myths we come to the TRUTH. Whether or not it happens in my lifetime is irrelivant to fact that I continue to question and discover honestly, acknowledging and discarding myths and fairy tales, knowing that the truth may not be what we are prepared to accept or not. But if it is THE truth, it is still all the more worth finding.

(gnotcivulf gets off soap box)

I'm in agreement that this discovery is a gateway to other debates and issues in the works. We've all drawn our own conclusions, in any case. I'm just looking forward to having those conclusions tested. Whether it be from more paintings with codes, skulls placed in odd corners of the Popes bathroom, or the discovery of Jesus' big toe, we are definitely in an age of revelations (no, NOT the "Book of ..." :P) and I enjoy it!

Name: TheNakedBoneHunter • Date: 03/15/07 20:48

A: VERY IMPORTANT - SEE BELOW - email of JOE ZIAS, March 1, 2007 - CAN SOMEONE VERIFY THIS AS BEING THE GENUINE EMAIL FROM JOE ZIAS, if it is, then this is critical news ( Note: I am not the author of the following excerpt , The Naked Bone Hunter )

Time magazine again reports: "Asbury Theological Seminary professor Ben Witherington, a early Christianity expert who was deeply involved with the James Ossuary, says there are physical reasons to believe it couldn't have originated in the Talpiot plot." Following the lead of Time, I did my own detective work and checked out Ben Witherington's blogspot (see, www.benwitherington.blogspot.com).

Witherington claims: "Joe Zias is a fine archaeologist of long standing and good reputation. He is the person who catalogued the ten ossuaries from the Talpiot tomb, and personally catalogued the tenth ossuary. He worked with Amos Kloner as part of the team who made the original discovery. In two emails this morning to someone I have been talking to he made crystal clear that the tenth ossuary was blank, certainly was not the James ossuary at all despite the assertions of those involved in making the (Vision TV) special. These emails have been sent along to me, and I will let them speak for themselves.

Joe Zias [email protected]: Subject: Re: Jesus Tomb Sent: Thursday, March 1, 2007 6:02 AM

"Amos Kloner is right as I received and catalogued the objects, the 10th was plain and I put it out in the courtyard with all the rest of the plain ossuaries as was the standard procedure when one has little storage space available. Nothing was stolen nor missing and they were fully aware of this fact. It just didn't fit in with their agenda." Shalom, Joe.

The filmmakers were fully aware that the tenth ossuary in the so-called "Jesus family tomb" was blank, but it didn't fit in with their agenda. So they deliberately misled viewers with a spurious assertion that this was the James ossuary
END OF EXCERPT

CAN SOMEONE CONFIRM THIS WITH JOE ZIAS ?

Name: gnotcivulf • Date: 03/16/07 2:16

A: Oh, TheNakedBoneHunter, started a thread for you. Just doing my part.

Name: Messiah • Date: 03/16/07 15:04

A: I agree with both gnotcivulf and Marc. The keys are in the skulls as well in the essens of truth. Pilates question (We all have truths, are mine the same as yours?) is more legitime than the answer.

The essens of Truth is ONE even if the interpretation of it is individual and aligned with the local culture. However, it's easy to missunderstand this understanding and to think that different interpretations is lies when they differ from one specific culture.

Truth or not. I say those how are behind and the event that led to this dscovery is as interesting as the discovery itself. Again it's worth 2000 years of effort to retrive "the truth" if they are hiding something...

/M

Name: Xcavate • Date: 03/16/07 15:39

A: perhaps this tomb was the secret the templars protected :)

Name: Marc • Date: 03/16/07 17:37

A: Read the "^ Protection ^" thread in the Secret Symbols forum...!

- Marc

Name: BornAgain • Date: 03/16/07 19:57

A: Skulls, skulls, skulls... Why isn't there more questions concerning the three skulls!?

* BornAgain *

Name: Messiah • Date: 03/18/07 23:34

A: I agree....

/M

Name: Delyn • Date: 03/19/07 3:06

A: "A: perhaps this tomb was the secret the templars protected :)"

Xcavate, yes, and why don't we have these answers from the experts?

Name: Messiah • Date: 03/19/07 6:11

A: And who's the expert if so? I guess the ouroboros dragon just took another bite of it's tail.

/M

Name: gnotcivulf • Date: 03/19/07 6:54

A: Just a thought: has Laurence Gardner commented on this? Just curious and too tired to do any indepth searches right now. Any info, comrades?

Name: Marc • Date: 03/19/07 7:31

A: Messiah, What's that supposed to mean? Someone linked the ouroboros to the ring of the tomb entry sign somewhere on this forumsite. But I didn't find it trustful. Now you also mention it. Why? How? It sound interesting? Could you clearify?

- Marc

Name: Messiah • Date: 03/19/07 9:55

A: OK Marc, here it is: To understand the Ouroboros symbol correctly, you'll have to picture yourself as beeing the dragon/snake. Each time you do NOT do what you think you sould do because you are scared of the common reaction to your the action you should have done, you take a bite of your tail. It's about individuality versus the common group.

The Ouroboros is aancient methaporic and pre christian symbol to "Original sin". We're all born as full featured dragons (orginals) and we all dies as humans (copies).

The reasons why the "so called experts" do NOT involve themselves with things that, from a common perspective, may related them to beeing unprofessional is because their affraid.

They, the experts, are eating their tails with tremendous speed, without themselves understanding it.

/M

Name: Marc • Date: 03/20/07 7:22

A: Messiah, so what you mean is that the experts should discuss more open and freely and tell us more about what they think and reason about, even if they do possess more evidence than others? By doing this they wouldn't eat their own individuality. Isn't that contradictious?

- Marc

Name: Messiah • Date: 03/20/07 13:02

A: Marc, Of course it's not contradictious. Even chaos is ordered thru the laws of nature. This can be handled in different way's. 1. Kill the evil dragon (kill the expert), 2. Let the evil dragon kill itself (Silence the experts, by make them realize they can say anything that is not already accepted) 3. Treat the dragon with mutual respect (Give the expert room to air his/hers views freely). Of course the latter also mean that the dragon also has to accept mutual respect as common ground and NOT use it's position for it's own purposes only. What is the essens of evil, is the obvious question here?

The India Tomb of Jesus here on this forumsite is a good example. We should treat it with respect, but as the ones behind it post entries about it everywhere, there is no respect from them either.

Allegorical battles against dragons most often has this hidden context, as it's one of mainkinds biggest dilemmas. The dragons battle against itself (The Ouroboros) is the insight from the dragons own perspective - as we are all born experts, until we realize the essens of Truth.

Who could ever be expert on Truth... The Pope?

I think I'm drifting off target here, still we have no answer on the skulls issue. This is kind of annoying, as there must be trillions of experts who have ideas concerning them. So bring them on or take another bite of your tail, you expert who reads this!

/M

Name: Marc • Date: 03/21/07 12:32

A: Messiah, Ha, ha off target alright but, fun anyway. The third alternative you mention reminds me of the last book in Asimov's Foundation series named "Earth something", were a third not-yet-thought-of alternative was the solution to mankinds problems.

I agree, let's go back to the Skulls. One can go crazy thinking big on things like these...

- Marc

Name: Messiah • Date: 03/22/07 9:39

A: Marc, you're right. Asimov was a great thinker and visionary. Reading my last post I found out that I missed a "t" after "can" in the second alternative. Such a mistake of course also point out how easy it is to make mistakes...

So, back to the three Skulls. Someone mentioned a possible relation with the Gimel symbol earlier in this thread. I scanned the symbol meaning and I found out that it has a relation to the number three, which according to hebrew togeather is the symbol mean stability and balance. I had no idea about it, maybee someone now more. I haven't found any connection to the skulls.

/M

Name: Marc • Date: 03/26/07 18:58

A: Why aren't more interested in the three mysterious skulls? They must mean something. If there was a common thing to put skulls in other tombs, like guards, then I would understand. But nobody has mentioned such thing either.

PLEASE GIVE US SOME CLUES!!!

- Marc

Name: Marc • Date: 03/26/07 19:09

A: OK, I found this in one of the articles on this very fragmented website:

- "This too was decidedly not typical. In ancient Jerusalem, the dead were placed inside tombs; in tombs, the dead were placed inside ossuaries. If anything was left behind, it was a lamp or a bottle of perfume—not skulls. What were human bones doing under the symbol? Whose bones were they?"

So the skulls was identified back in the 80's as extraordinary in the same way as the chevron was. That's good, one question answered.

- Marc

Name: Dougweller • Date: 03/28/07 14:05

A: There aren't any more papers for the IAA to show us.
This was a rescue operation, the inscriptions weren't translated until later. Where does it say there was an inscription on the tomb?
I'm not sure what the point is about a parchment in Supper at Emmaus.

As for the skulls, there is no obvious reason to think that they were placed at the same time or that they weren't moved or taken out of an ossuary when the ossuary was reused.

It would be possible to open the tomb again, but of course it is now full of stuff added since it was last opened and the human remains are buried elsewhere.

If it is the symbol on the facade that is being discussed, here is what Joe Zias has to say about it at
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=1-&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.joezias.com%2Ftomb.html&ei-=pXUKRp-9Lo-WQc3k2PUM&usg=__hoO8_uSImeJsDXO2jbOA-bvaRbYk=&sig2=FYeGcjeDqmTEX5_0esuZzw
"Throughou-t- the film as well as the marketing circus, one sees prominently on the façade of the tomb, the dot within the triangle, minus the base as if this is some mystical Judeo-Christian symbol. Had they simply taken the time to scan photos in the catalogue of Jewish ossuaries by LY Rahmani, they would have seen that many ossuaries with triangular lids have decorative elements or functional elements serving as handgrips to raise the lid, which resemble the ornament on the tomb façade. Thusly, the façade motif could easily be seen in and of itself to resemble an ossuary lid with the tomb itself serving as an ossuary. A black and white photo of one of the ossuaries in the catalogue is reproduced for viewers here.

Alternatively, the circular object within the triangle can be interpreted as either a patera or a wreath, both which appear on a number of ossuaries as well tomb facades such as the Tomb of ‘Absalom’. Alternatively if you are in the world of film marketing and media hype, it’s the mystical Vonage symbol-reversed. (Apologies to Vonage)

Name: nothing_but_the_truth • Date: 04/05/07 22:59

A: nothing_but_the_truth
sHG3ka

'SpiritWoman' wrote:

"until the bones are re-covered for date and DNA testing, we can only guess and never really know the truth"

I agree completely. In fact, I consider it to be of utmost importance that every possible bit of human remains originating from the tomb be preserved. It should go without saying.

I consider the reburial of the bones to be a heinous crime against science and future generations (or, more specifically, the right of future generations to know the truth).

I understand that some of my views might upset or insult certain people, but that is certainly not my intention. Whether or not the tomb is in fact that of Jesus of Nazareth is inconsequential to the pursuit of pure scientific knowledge. The abundance of evidence pro and contra present an obligation to the scientific community to spare no effort in the investigations. There is little sense in turning the whole into a religious debate. Surely a properly conducted investigation would not offend the deceased buried in the tomb in question, nor should the results of the investigations contradict with the idea of resurrection, in case the earthly remains of Jesus of Nazareth were to be found.

I have one rather wild idea: what if the _actual_ bones weren't the ones buried, but rather some other 'unimportant' ones? I do not claim that to be the case, but what if the bones have in fact been in some storage the whole time, but it can't be made public as it would upset those who demanded the bones to be reburied? Some of these wild ideas should perhaps be investigated, if only to be debunked to keep rumors and myths growing out of proportion, thus hindering the investigations and wasting time, effort and money.

And about the DNA... Would it not be exciting if the DNA of Jesus of Nazareth could be pretty much completely reassembled from the remaining bits and pieces? Tecnhology available in the near future would probably settle one question for good, namely: 'What did Jesus look like?' Now wouldn't that be something to behold his true face? Now, I won't go into the issue of _cloning_ _Jesus_(!), however stupefying the idea might be, let alone the implications of actually doing so!

Once again I must apologize for the radical nature of some of what I write, but please do not take it that seriously. I respect all beliefs and believers, but I also respect science, and many a scientific advance started out as an outright insane thought. Many a scientist has replied to the question why something was done: 'Because it was there to be done.' I think it applies here as well -- if the evidence that would close this matter is in fact out there, then, for the love of God, go get it and find out the truth!

Post Scriptum: The inscription shown in the most recent footage from the tomb puzzles me to no end. Not to mention the symbol with the inverted 'V' and the circle/dot!

Name: nothing_but_the_truth • Date: 04/05/07 23:01

A: Can't these posts be edited? I noticed there was some nonsense in the beginning of my post, but I searched for an 'edit' button/link in vain.

Name: Panluna • Date: 04/06/07 0:24

A: You have to hit the backspace key to erase something.There is no edit button once you post your message you can't erase it.I wonder what the inscription said.I know about the ossuaries inscriptions but I didn't know there was something inscribed in the tomb.Maybe it refers to the identities of the three skulls.and the search for the grail as a cup or plate could be the reason why the outside of the tomb was plundered.

Name: scotknight • Date: 11/12/07 15:34

A: Hello every one,
I have enjoyed reading all the questions regarding the 3 skulls in the death chamber of the Talpiot tomb.
When I have seen the documentary originally, I saw the 3 skulls and thought that we would have more information further...in the film ....nothing.
Then I have bought the book relating the documentary and only found three lines about the same subject. I found that quite curious...
Then again I came across the book written by James Tabor, where he is talking about the 3 skulls for no more than 3 lines. hummmm....very curious.
I have studied the history of the knight templars for the last 20 years, both in France and in Scotland, scouring every possible site or document related to the subject.
Here are my conclusions from what I have seen so far.:
I do not see these 3 skulls being put there by accident, and certainly not by any Jewish custom of the time. I may be wrong, but I have never seen anywhere in the Jewish culture the fact to leave 3 skulls in a death chamber which are not properly buried (according to the talmudic law). For the same reason the remaining bones from the ossuaries were quickly and carefully re-buried after the discovery of the tomb. In any case it is strictly impossible that 3 skulls were taken off the ossuaries and put into a triangle in the death chamber by the family.
Now I would like to track your attention on one fact which in my view is of major importance.
You may want to check on Charles Warren Work in the 1860 's and his duties for the Palestine exploration fund.
You may want to check his work about searching what the first nine knights, (settled in herode's temple stables), were doing during the very beginning of their work after their arrival in Jerusalem.
Never forget one thing....Godefroi de Bouillon and Baudoin de Boulogne, were brothers, sons of Eustache de Boulogne....I guess anybody who is interested should trust a little bit the work done by the mormons, even if it is not all the time very accurate and visit the following link :
http://www.josephsmithsr.co-m/josephsr/d0045/I15415.htm
I- suggest that you take some time and go back the male line of this family and be patient.....then you will understand the new "latin" kingdom of Jerusalem and why they decided to dig under the temple and reach the holy of the holy.
We are not into the Baigent saga but into real history.

When Charles Warren finished his excavations following the templars path, he only found a small templar cross and some other rusted tools or weapons. The templars cross was by far a signature left there either by will or by accident.
You all know that the Jewish civilisation is based on writings, copying and doing this all over again to transmit to the next generations.
I guess that you have to ask yourself what the templars found underneath the temple ?
Most certainly documents. Lots of documents. Certainly some very old ones like cooper scrolls.
According to me they found at least two major ones.:
- One stating where the treasure of Israel was buried (in twelve different secrets spots, which have been excavated since and only proved to have had great value things in the past as some coins and other items were found).
Even if the temple order is said to have had lots of donation at the time, it is not enough to explain the sudden extraordinary wealth of the order.....
-Another one stating the location of the tombs , just like any document to be found in the churches for the graveyards.
Like the one from talpiot.
Of course I cannot prove anything, but the three skulls stand in this death chamber as a proper signature....
It seems that too much money is involved in the production of the various books and documentaries and reading the few sentence in James Tabor 's book says it all : it is said in the sense that there will be another documentary or book on the subject, like on the trail of the templars in 1100's......

For any one who knows the "not common" history of the templars, it is obvious that the knights discovered exactly what they should not have discovered, as their attitude and behaviours changed considerably after that.
Never forget that in the XII century we are under the new power from the Pope who is taking advantage of the "supposed" success of the Crusades ( word which was not existing at that time...)to establish a new spiritual power all over Europe.
Very curious to note that the Templars had only to report to the pope for the creation of the order, and not to the king of Jerusalem who initiated the search, and it sound very strange when a few years back the roman catholic church was an extremely weak body in continental Europe, dominated by the local Barons and lords.
It would not be surprising that some kind of negotiation happened by then, since they had enough knowledge of the "real history"of Jesus and his family after their "local" discoveries.
Leaving such a message with 3 skulls would not be like leaving your own signature on the premises, but would only give to the future generations the proof that they had been there before and knew ......Part of their secret......
I shall have more to post on a very important subject, discovered in Provence in the south of France, during my last trip there, which I am sure will leave most of you quite curious. It is carved in the stone....and dates back to the first century....
Scotknight
The auld Alliance search

Name: Mark Stilt • Date: 11/21/07 4:30

A: As I pointed out in March of this year, (under the Category of "Freemason" and Topic of "Freemasons and the Tomb?"), I have noticed that the skulls appear to be located in the East, West and South sides of the tomb. There are no skulls located in the North.

As a Freemason, I find this to be potentially significant because, those are the precise locations of the Worshipful Master, Senior Warden and Junior Wardens in the Lodge Room.

Mark

Name: Panluna • Date: 11/21/07 17:04

A: Mark,
They could have been ritually arranged to point at "something".I'm still wondering who they were and who arranged the skulls and when.

Name: Mark Stilt • Date: 11/21/07 23:59

A: Panluna -
If they are filling the positions of Worshipful Master, Senior and Junior Wardens, then they are not "pointing" at anything; they are filling a station.

Now, this could indicate that there really IS a relationship between the Freemasons and the Templars (as so much legend seems to indicate). That in itself would be a significant finding.

Additionally, it occurs to me that just MAYBE the location of the "Worshipful Master" skull (in the East), MIGHT be near the location of the ossuary believed by the Templars (or whoever opened the tomb), to be the ossuary of Christ.

I offer the above only as something to ponder, not as fact.

I myself believe that Christ rose from the tomb as the scriptures indicate; nevertheless, that does not necessarily preclude a preexisting family ossuary from being used to house articles left behind after His resurrection; perhaps the bloody shroud, pieces of wood from the cross that had adhered to the body, AND perhaps even nails. Such items would have been sufficient to leave behind DNA trace at the bottom of the ossuary.

Name: Panluna • Date: 11/22/07 18:50

A: Mark,

Do you believe it wasa spiritual or physical ressurection?
Happy Thanksgiving!!!

Name: Mark Stilt • Date: 11/22/07 21:06

A: Thank you and Happy Thanksgiving to you, Panluna!!

In answer to your question, I believe that Christ's spirit re-entered his physical body, which was then resurrected from the tomb.

When Christ appeared to his disciples the scriptures relate that :

"they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a SPIRIT.
And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; HANDLE ME, and see; for A SPIRIT HATH NOT FLESH AND BONES, AS YE SEE ME HAVE."
(Luke 24:37-39)

In the next several verses after that, in order to solidify in their minds the fact that he is a tangible being of flesh and bone, he eats in front of them!! (Luke 24:41-43)

The early testimony of the Apostles (who were eye witnesses), was that Jesus Christ was resurrected as a living, tangible person, with all the body parts and organs that you and I have.

Name: Panluna • Date: 11/23/07 18:52

A: Mark,
When I first read the NT I thought he might have awakened from a coma.After reading the gospel of Mary Magdalene where she declared him dead I would be more inclined to believe that the word ressurection had a different meaning in his day and it changed over the centuries by different writers and interpretations of the original words in the N.T scrolls.Jesus and Mary appeared in their transfigured forms for many centuries after their earthly lives ended and I'm a witness to Mary's visitations.I wrote about my experiences under another topic on these forums.She visited me in a dream recently about an unmarked grave.

I believe that he said for them not to touch him as he had not ascended unto his father in heaven---there has been many debates about what that meant.Dead,alive or a ghost?

Name: Mark Stilt • Date: 11/24/07 4:00

A: Panluna:

The Saviors command to "touch me not"; (or as the New English Bible reads: "Do not CLING to me" was directed to only one person - Mary Magdalene (his presumed wife). The implications are clear: she wanted to restrain him to stay with her. He stated however, that he could not tarry, as he had buisiness yet to do: he had not YET ascended to his Father in Heaven; and that he needed to do so. (See John 20:17)

We can conclude from this passage that WHEREVER his spirit had been during the days after his death, it HAD NOT BEEN TO HEAVEN!! So if his spirit had not been in heaven, then where DID it go???

Again, the scriptures speak clearly and directly to this issue. The apostle Peter stated that while Christ had been "put to death in the flesh", he had been "quickened" (or made alive) "by the Spirit: By which also HE WENT AND PREACHED UNTO THE SPIRITS IN PRISON; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God, waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is eight souls were saved by water." (1 Peter 3:18-20)

In other words, when Christ died on the cross, his spirit went to the place of the departed dead (i.e. "the spirits in prison") who had been disobedient in the days of Noah; his purpose in going there was to preach the Gospel to them, that they might now have the opportunity to repent, after having first rejected the preaching of Noah and thus dying in the flood.

As if to reinforce this concept to the christians of his day, Peter (just a few verses later) states: "For for this cause was THE GOSPEL PREACHED ALSO TO THEM THAT ARE DEAD, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." (1 Peter 4:6)

This to me, is the plain teaching of scripture concerning these things.

Name: Panluna • Date: 11/24/07 17:04

A: Mark,
What I glean from those quoted scriptures is that Jesus Christ appeared as a spirit possiblely caught in limbo as happens to people who die violent deaths with things left undone.Have you ever read THE URANTIA BOOK? It has a very interesting explaination about his purpose on earth etc.You can find it on line.

Name: Mark Stilt • Date: 11/28/07 7:44

A: Panluna -

As I see it the scriptures pretty much speak for themselves on this matter. The apostles all maintained that Christ had actually died; and that he had actually literally resurrected. Words pretty much mean what they mean.

I am not averse to reading the Urantia Book; I've made it a practice to give most writings that claim to be scripture an equal chance at convincing me.

In the process, I have read each of the following compilations word for word and cover to cover: The Holy Bible, The Book of Mormon, the Book of Enoch, the Koran, all of the books contained in the Nag Hammadi Library, the egyptian Book of the Dead, the Bhagavad-Gita, many (if not most) of the Dead Sea scrolls, the Iliad and the Odyssey; along with many other ancient books and manuscripts too numerous to name.

While I have found all of them thought-provoking and interesting, my heart has been captured by the Holy Bible AND the Book of Mormon. I know they are inspired (as Abraham Lincoln would say) because they have inspired me. Their testimonies are clear, consistent and explicit concerning Christ and his gospel. I believe they are true.

I realize that this site is not a place for preaching, etc. In fact I have often complained that too many people here have an obvious agenda; but I thought that at this point I should make it crystal clear where I stand.

Having said all these things, I'm open to the possibility that this tomb might actually have belonged to the family of Christ.

I have no particular axe to grind in this matter; my testimony of Christ remains unaffected either way. At this stage of my life however, I really have no room left to question those truths that have already settled into my heart and mind by the whisperings of the Holy Ghost.

Name: Panluna • Date: 11/28/07 17:10

A: Mark,
The URANTIA BOOK is not holy scripture.It's a recently released secret tome of a secret society and the book is a "channeled' work.It does answer many questions and carries the tone of the ring of truth.The scriptures read today are edited works.I'm not saying that the testemonies aren't true I'm saying that they aren't completely by the word.Why else would the lost books surface?Is it by God's word and command that we are confounded?Does God want the humans of this world to know the everlasting truth?
Most people searching for the answers reach and accept a truth based on facts and view points that that person is comfortable with and they search no more.The truth can be elusive but stands on it's own no matter how awesome the facts are.

Name: Mark Stilt • Date: 11/29/07 12:08

A: Panluna -
Speaking as an active member of York Rite and Scottish Rite Masonry(32nd degree), as well as being a member of the Eastern Star, I can tell you that 'secret' societies are no place to get 'religion' or certifiably correct notions about Jesus. I personally don't believe that God would rely on such dubious sources for 'getting His word out' (so to speak).

Of course, (I believe) God wants us to know His truth; that in these last days he has spoken again and revealed ANOTHER Testament of Jesus Christ (the Book of Mormon) through the Prophet Joseph Smith. It's pages shed brilliant light on many of the perplexing questions about Christ and His Church. I recommend it to any sincere seeker of truth.

Having said that, I'd like to lead the discussion back to the skulls found at the tomb and to the tomb itself; This is where the legends and iconography of Masonry may shed some kind of light.

Name: Panluna • Date: 11/29/07 17:08

A: Mark,
I have two questions to ask you:
Did the Free Masons originate in ancient Egypt?
What happeed to the "plates" with the inscriptions the Angel Moroni gave to John Smith?(the founder of the Morman movement)
Every time I learn something new about a religion or 'secret society' it leads me right back to the Angels.
The Arch Angels revealed the information in The URANTIA BOOK.
In addition to the two previous questions do you think that any of those three skulls belonged to sacrifices or were from personages of importance brought from Europe during the Crusades?Also were any of the Knights Templars members of the Free Masons Society?
Did the ritual in the tomb occur during modern times? Or during the Crusades?

Name: Mark Stilt • Date: 11/29/07 22:48

A: Panluna -

The origins of Freemasonry? That's the million dollar question! Nobody seems to know for sure; at least little agreement has been reached.

The legends of the Craft take it back to the builders of Solomon's Temple; some of the legends go back further, to Noah and even Enoch. Having said that, most historians trace its modern development to the 1700's.

My own thoughts are that it is genuinely ancient and does in fact go back (at least) to the time of Solomon.

The relationship of the Templars to the Masons? Again, hard to be definite. Most masons I know think that there is a relationship; we even have a Knight Templar degree (which of course I have received), An excellent study of the possibilities iscontained in the book titled "Born in Blood".

My reasons for noting the placement of the skulls in the tomb as being at the locations of the Worshipful Master, Senior and Juntior Wardens, rests on the theory that perhaps the ancient Templars (upon discovering the tomb), may have (after an examination of its contents) sealed it up again; placing the skulls as a kind of memorial and perpetual guardianship to the sacred site; with the skull of the "Worshipful Master" being placed near the believed location of the Jesus ossuary.

It may further be that on significant occasions, the tomb was reopened for some kind of ritualized observance.

Pure speculation of course, but (I think) worth exploring.

Now, as far as the golden plates of the Book of Mormon.

The angel Moroni revealed their location to Joseph Smith (along with an instrument for translating their contents into English).

When the translation was completed the plates were returned to the care of the angel Moroni, in whose charge they have remained (we suppose) until this day.

The gold plates were viewed and even hefted by many people before their return. In fact, at least 13 people (including a woman) besides Joseph Smith viewed the plates. Twelve of them affixed their signatures under their written testimonies of having seen those plates. Those testimonies are appended to every printed copy of the Book of Mormon.

The Book of Mormon is the only book I know of, that comes with a divine promise to every sincere reader; that if they will in fact read the book, and sincerely pray to know of its truthfulness, God WILL reveal the truthfulness of it to them.

By the way - the promise works.

Name: Mark Stilt • Date: 11/30/07 7:06

A: In addition to my entries (above), I'd really like to refer anybody interested, to read my entries under: Categories "Jesus a husband or father?", Topic: "TO: Simcha Jacobovici".

That is where I outline my principal theory concerning John Mark, (author the book of Mark) and his paternity as a child of Jesus and Mary Magdalene. Numerous scriptural references are cited as support.

Feedback is requested. Thank you.

Name: Panluna • Date: 11/30/07 21:58

A: Mark,
WOW!!! I wonder what Moroni looked like!!!! Imagine being in the presence of an Angel.Are the words included in the Book Of Mormon ? And were the original letters in the "language of the birds"--namely the angelic alphabet called Enochian.How were the words on the gold plates deciphered by John Smith?Wasn't he illiterate? And where in upstate New York did all this take place?

What is the highest degree in the Free Masons Society and how does one join? And congratulations.

Name: Mark Stilt • Date: 12/01/07 18:14

A: Panluna -

When looking for answers about any religion or organization, I always recommend going to the source.

If you are sincerely looking for the truth about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I suggest going to: lds.org

A decent resource for questions about Freemasonry is:
freemasons-freemasonry.com

Name: Panluna • Date: 12/01/07 19:10

A: Thank you ,Mark and Happy Holidays.It seems to be starting early this year!! We actually got snow today!!!We usually don't see this until January.It put me in good mood for holiday shopping.Usually I'm depressed at this time.
Thank you again for the referals.And Aloha!!! I am curious about the alphabet inscribed on Moroni's plates.I can consult the Akasha..that takes some dream-time.

Name: Mark Stilt • Date: 12/01/07 19:37

A: Panluna -

Happy Holidays to you as well!

The language of the gold plates is described as "reformed egyptian". That's about all that can be stated with certainty.

Name: Panluna • Date: 12/02/07 16:38

A: Hi Mark,
I looked up "reformed egyptian" and the Charles Anthon/Caractors document.Very interesting!

If you research the angelic celestial and Theban alphabets you wil find caractors from those alphabets.I'm trying to identify the ones with the dots and lines.The "angelic "author used a combination of different alphabet caractors.And some of the earlier versions of the bible were actually engraved in metal.Papyrus doesn't last forever and neither does metal.

My dream impression is that the gold plates were stolen from Smith and company by a comon thief, wrapped , boxed and hidden away in a house that caught fire and burned to the ground.The owners at that time had no idea of what "treasure' was hidden in between the floorboards of their building.I hope I'm wrong with my interpretationof my dream--but it had the ring truth.I asked my guide three times and got the same answer after I woke up this morning.

The first Native Americans tell a story of a Great white father Spirit who visited them in the "New World" and he figures in the stories of the Incas etc.Is it possible that he could hae been the Angel Moroni?When there was a land bridge across the Atlantic it is possible that were groups of people migrating from Europe who could have traveled and battled their way across Atlantis and arrived in the Americas in the B.C.s. I'm not sure if this validates the legends on Moroni's golden plates but it does open a new possibility and window on history.

It's too bad that Charles Anthon did not copy the whole works inscribed on those plates.

Thank you for the reference on reformed egyptian.I found a website that contains the text from the Book Of Morman and read some of it's history.Angels don't steer us in the wrong direction.it's matter of how we interpret the guidance and what our intentions are using the knowledge from the angels that we recieve that makes the difference in solving universal mysteries and how individuals contacted impact humanity.

Name: Mark Stilt • Date: 12/03/07 1:05

A: Panluna -
No offense, but your way off course on this. Read the Book of Mormon.

Name: Panluna • Date: 12/03/07 12:34

A: Mark,
I have a copy on order.Thanks.

Name: irsh • Date: 01/12/08 0:59

A: I'm not expert on any of this but this is what I think...from what I understand. There's to many accounts of Jesus for him not to be real, and according to everyone he was a great teacher. He obviously had to be a great teacher, to have millions of followers over such a long period. And in the words of C. S. Louis: "Jesus either has to be a lunatic, a liar, or what he says he is." ,there's no way away around that. A good teacher is not a liar, and a truly good teacher couldn't be a lunatic there's only one more option....just something to think about .

Name: QuebecIndieAnna • Date: 01/12/08 5:16

A: Hi Irish.

I wondered about the skulls too.

I do not know what longevity for adults was in those days.
Followers of Jesus were put to death before their time.
And, in the year 70, the entire city was destroyed.

Where am I going? Could their have been three bodies in the tomb
in " first burial, shrouded" stage? Might the family not have gotten back to the tomb for 2nd burial, because of events in the year 70?
And, in 2000 years, there have been earthquakes.
Could the skulls have simple rolled off from their niche once the shrouds had disintegrated?

Sharon Goldban said that many bones were found scattered in the tomb when they entered.
Just a thought.

Indie.

Name: james39 • Date: 01/30/08 5:42

A: I have done a lot of reading surronding the templars. I am not sure what is fact from fiction to an extent. But here is what I seem to understand about the templars. The templars were formed by the pope. They cleared out the cathers in southern france which believed different from the church. Some believe they believed Mary had gone there (to France) with child. A split occured in the Templars which I understand stands to today about the crucifiction. The day of the incident just happens to fall on the feast of saint john. celibrated by the freemasons. The templars went to the site of solomons temple and were permitted to excavate. Demolay for some reason destroyed all logs prior to his arrest and the templar fleet left changing the symbol from the red cross to the skull and bones. (could this be the skull and long bones.)
In the book paintings from the Louvre. I noticed that paintings of the crucifiction always seem to have a skull at the bottom. what if this is not too identify the hill but what actually may have been found. ( the bones of the tomb).
The templars were put on trial for many charges including the worship of a skull. But the skull was not produced as evidence. A skull of Mary is actually taken through the streets yearly in the area which the Cathers were.
There is something else which I found interesting and that is an item I read about Franks casket. It has a depiction of someone drinking from a skull. ( The templar papers) Maybe I am completely wrong but I believe that it was known than with Demolay what was in the tomb.
Secondary questions in ( the templar papers ) is herod asking it jesus was the reincarnate of John before john was beheaded.
And is it true that Salome was the Aunt of Christ. NO MONEY FOR A TOMB? If Salome was the stepdaughter of herod and Mary was her sister would this make jesus an heir to the throne. why Pilates wife knew and spoke well of Jesus.
Or maybe I just have things all mixed up. Some things to research again.
In the book Symbols of fremasonry The candles are like the three skulls pg 30 wisdom strength and beauty. question would it seem to be what order were the boxes found. Who would have lined up with the skulls. Is this a left over from the templars today in the lodge rooms. or maybe they just thought it looked nice that would work too.
Were the skulls originally in a neat presentation as the candels at the alter of the lodge are.

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