Name:garysmplsmn •
Title: This just in, gospel accounts may be flawed •
Date posted: 03/16/07 3:03
Q: Flash!! First century journalistic reports relating to Jesus of Nazareth has this month been called into question by 21st century journalist Simcha Jacobovici. The latter day scribe reports that the remains of the first witnesses to Jesus of Nazareth's empty tomb appear to have been buried - along with Jesus' own remains - in a separate tomb on what was then the outskirts of Jerusalem. A thorough scientific study of the Talpiot tomb is as yet incomplete.
Jacobovici's find, if verified, suggests that journalists reporting Jesus' resurrection from the dead may have based their claim on incomplete evidence and a self-interested desire to come up with a story greatly sensationalized for the cynical purpose of attracting readers!
Good Lord. Well, what can I say, ladies and gentlemen? Other than: why am I NOT surprised?!! Or, to put it more circumspectly: the more things change, evidently the more they stay the same.
All seriousness aside, could we get some real scientific analysis of more DNA samples, of the ossuaries, the tomb, and the tomb surroundings before we speculate further on the divinity - or lack thereof - of historical persons?
Name:jsm •
Date: 03/16/07 3:41
A: Their afraid of real scientific analysis, why do you think they use probabilities as their main evidence. I've seen 5th grade science fair projects with more sophisticated in depth scientific work then this.
Name:gnotcivulf •
Date: 03/16/07 3:49
A: What about support research to add credibility? WHAT IS SO SPECIAL ABOUT TALPIOT ANYWAY??? What was it known as in that time? Was there Templar activity (THEIR pointing to it, not us) in that area?
Name:garysmplsmn •
Date: 03/16/07 4:17
A: jsm and gnotcivulf,
I am not a scientist and cannot make a detailed recommendation on what research should still be done. I do believe that there IS validity in what Jacobovici has done, but it is still very preliminary. If this subject was being studied by the best authorities in the relevant disciplines - and statistics IS one of those disciplines - then a much more thorough and cautious report would be produced. Jacobovici is a journalist, not a scientist. He has asked many valid questions, but it is also obvious that he has steered some of his thinking toward the gnostic - Templar scenario, which I would think is LESS likely if Jesus is buried in Jerusalem. The Templars may have discovered the Talpiot tomb during the crusades and stolen the grail and the shroud of Turin and invented a lot of legend, for all I know. This "discovery" - if you will allow - is far too important to become the captive of a current popular version of post-crucifixion events. I want to see more science and less journalism, because "journalism" (propaganda might be more accurate) is a big reason why we have had so many religious wars over the centuries, and we don't need any more of that.
Name:russcub •
Date: 03/16/07 18:07
A: The Gospel accounts are flawed by those who injected their political veiws just as they are doing today. Earlier versions of the Gospels show a lot of new material was added to the more current versions. John 8 about the woman caught in adultrey doesn't occur in earlier versions. The codices are full of editors remarks and mistakes.
Christianity from it's very beginning has always been a religion of the ignorant and under educated, one only has to look at the Christianist of today for proof of that.
There was an early belief that Jesus was adopted by God at his baptism, after the dove descended a voice was heard "This is my beloved son", instead of being born of the Virgin Mary, which makes a heck of a lot more sense than the infancy narriatives of Luke and Matthew. This adoption belief was considered hersey by the Orodox Church and Gnostic in content. There was also the belief that the devine part of Jesus left his body before he was crucified which is why he called out to God "My God, My God why have your forsaken me".
I do believe that this is the tomb of Jesus. He was a man and a prophet nothing else. There is such a thing as being blinded by faith. I think Jesus said it best "Gropping at gnats and swallowing down camels". There has been a lot of camel swallowning going on in the name of faith throughout the centries since Chrisianity started and they are still gulpping them down..
Name:exact55 •
Date: 03/17/07 1:08
A: @russcub
I agree that the gospels are seriously flawed and so are most other ancient religious documents. Substantial negative evidence and a serious lack of undisputed original data.
I also am not convinced that the probability of this being Jesus tomb is high. Substantial negative evidence and a serious lack of undisputed original data.
Name:garysmplsmn •
Date: 03/17/07 16:58
A: russcub,
It is perhaps worth reflecting on the fact that the power of Rome put Jesus to death and, to a great extent, it was the power of Rome that later made Jesus a god. When you read the account of the crucifixion in the gospel of John, it is clear that a complex political game was being played with the life of one considered by some to be the Jewish messiah. The Sanhedrin could find Jesus guilty of a theological capital crime, but lacked the temporal power to carry out the sentence. Pilate possessed the power to carry out the sentence, but lacked the legal motivation to do so. His condition for doing the Sanhedrin's bidding was to declare Jesus to be the very thing the Sanhedrin denies that Jesus is - their king!
Nearly three centuries later, Constantine follows the suggestion of a dream to conquer under the banner of the cross, thus appropriating for secular gain the symbol of one who reportedly said "My kingdom is not of this world." But, through Constantine's military victories, Jesus does become, in effect the official god of the Roman empire - the very "god of this world" which John (12:31) says he wanted to cast out through his crucifixion - on that very symbol under which Constantine prevailed.
One can infer from these ironies that Jesus prevailed over his enemies - or one can infer something quite different; namely, that Jesus was actually "brought down to earth" by the very powers that had, so to speak, sent him to heaven. And, those who had worshipped Jesus as Savior from the sins of the world had now placed his throne in the very heart of it. Perhaps this is what happens to those who claim divinity. But, it should be clear that all we know for sure is that that claim was made by the disciples (and thier disciples), the founders of the institution that has for much of its history claimed a virtual monopoly on truth.
Personally, I take a sort of ironic comfort from Jesus' statement in John 8 that, if we follow long enough, eventually we "shall know the truth; and the truth shall set you free."
