Name:Abigail •
Title: Two 'Sides' of Mary Magdalene •
Date posted: 02/27/07 21:29
Q: I think that Mary Magdalene has traditionally represented a very ambiguous figure in the Christian religion. On the one hand, she is portrayed as a sinful prostitute, on the other, she is depicted as a woman who repented for her sins and opened her heart to God. I think that is why there has always been so much controversy around her, and why so many people reject the idea that such an 'unholy' woman was married to such a pious man, Jesus.
Name:bella •
Date: 03/01/07 0:57
A: There are many issues surrounding the image of MM. The issue of patriarchy, which was definately an issue then and it is beyond me why it still exits today. There is also a body of symbolism and sacred texts that did not make it into the canon without which it is near impossible to understand the paradox that is MM, and essentially is every one of us via this metaphor. I personally have no issue with her being called a prostitue as well as being singled out as the one who understood. In gnosticism the soul is likened to a prostitute. It is also feminine until it is transformed. When transformed, it is the point of perception and understanding.
Name:osirius608 •
Date: 03/01/07 18:54
A: You also have to keep in mind that when "The Bible" was first compiled, the man given the responsibility to pick which stories to include felt that women were wicked from the start, therefore, to reduce woman's importance, spread misinformation in order to confuse...just as the nature of woman is to this day confusing to man. Realize that until Christianity really got started two centuries after Jesus' (Yeshua's) death, that women DID have some say in things...more importantly, the attributes of womanhood were cherished...
Name:Lore •
Date: 03/02/07 18:20
A: Here's a few places you might want to visit or join if you're interested in Mary Magdalene:
The oldest and most respected discussion list concerning Mary Magdalene. Margaret Starbird, Ki Longfellow, Joan Norton, Dr. Jim Gardner and other well-known authors post regularly
http://groups.yahoo.com/gro-up/magdalene-list/
Order- of Mary Magdala discussion list
http://groups.yahoo.com/group-/MaryMagdalaOrder/
Goddess- Christian discussion list
http://groups.yahoo.com/gro-up/goddesschristians/
Th-e- goddess-Christian oriented Esoteric Mystery School
http://www.northernway.org/school.html
Name:Lore •
Date: 03/02/07 18:40
A: She's mentioned more often than any other woman except Mother Mary (who's virginal role was a much later invention), She is the only woman who is referred to by a title and one of only a few NT characters who are identified by more than a first name: Jesus of Nazareth, John the Baptist, Pontius Pilate, Simon Peter, Judas Iscariot, Simon of Cyrene, Joseph of Arimathea. Since this cast of characters is central, putting her into their company makes her central too.
She was important enough that her role could not be completely written out of the canonical gospels, even though it could be downplayed. This downplaying of her importance took a vicious turn when Pope Gregory, in a homily in 591, conflated her with the fallen sinner (which the Bible does not support) and termed her a prostitute. Describing a woman with a sexual slur was a death knell to her creditability, a defamation that her reputation could not recover from.
By doing this, they denied all women the right of leadership and their rightful recognition in the sacred feminine. The dogma handed down via the Roman Catholic Church is not what Yeshua taught. It was based on the teachings of Paul, who never met Yeshua and who significantly disagreed with Yeshua's family and followers. He first tried to demean their leadership status, then tried to court them into accepting him. On top of his false teachings was layered the misogynist ideas of Rome, which started long before Pope Gregory and continues to this day. Here's a few quotes about women from early church fathers or the NT authors (none of which were Yeshua's disciples):
"I find more bitter than death the woman who is a snare, whose heart is a trap and whose hands are chains. The man who pleases God will escape her, but the sinner she will ensnare....while I was still searching but not finding, I found one upright man among a thousand but not one upright woman among them all" (Ecclesiastes 7:26-28).
"No wickedness comes anywhere near the wickedness of a woman.....Sin began with a woman and thanks to her we all must die" (Ecclesiasticus 25:19,24).
"A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I don't permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner" (I Timothy 2:11-14).
Augustine carries the heaviest influence here. He obsessed about his own sexuality and wrote at great length about his torments. These writings later became the basis upon which the concept of the duality of spirit/body rested in Christianity, with the body being a wicked sexual temptress and women being vile creatures of the devil because they tempted righteous men. However, his beliefs about duality did not arise in the teachings of Yeshu. He was a disciple of Plato and his ideas concerning duality parallel Plato's (who, btw, was also "born of a virgin").
The wicked temptress harken's back to Eve's reassigned role in Eden and the serpent (Wisdom's symbol) became the devil. Out of this reassignment came Augustine's idea of original sin and all babies born as unclean sinners, rather than being blessings bestowed by the fertility goddess.
St. Augustine wrote to a friend: "What is the difference whether it is in a wife or a mother, it is still Eve the temptress that we must beware of in any woman......I fail to see what use woman can be to man, if one excludes the function of bearing children."
St. Augustine also flatly stated that marriage is a sin.
St. Tertullian, a sworn enemy of the Gnostics, said to his 'best beloved sisters' in the faith: "Do you not know that you are each an Eve? The sentence of God on this sex of yours lives in this age: the guilt must of necessity live too. You are the Devil's gateway: You are the unsealer of the forbidden tree: You are the first deserter of the divine law: You are she who persuaded him whom the devil was not valiant enough to attack. You destroyed so easily God's image, man. On account of your desert even the Son of God had to die."
Tertullian also said, 'Marriage was a moral crime, more dreadful than any punishment or any death.' It was spurcitiae, 'obscenity,' or 'filth.'
Origen declared, 'Matrimony is impure and unholy, a means of sexual passion.'
St. Jerome said the primary purpose of a man of God was to 'cut down with an ax of Virginity the wood of Marriage.'
St. Ambrose said marriage was a crime against God, because it changed the state of virginity that God gave every man and woman at birth. Marriage was prostitution of the members of Christ, and 'married people ought to blush at the state in which they are living.'
Tatian said marriage is corruption, 'a polluted and foul way of life.' Influenced by him, Syrian churches ruled that no person could become Christian except celibate men, and no man who had ever been married could be baptized.
Saturninus said God made only two kinds of people, good men and evil women. Marriage perpetuated the deviltry of woman members, who dominated men through the magic of sex.
St. Bernard proclaimed that it was easier for a man to bring the dead back to life than to live with a woman without endangering his soul."
St. Thomas Aquinas considered women as defective: "As regards the individual nature, woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active force in the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex; while the production of woman comes from a defect in the active force or from some material indisposition, or even from some external influence."
Martin Luther made it clear women were disposable: "If they become tired or even die, that does not matter. Let them die in childbirth, that's why they are there"
Name:ollypop •
Date: 03/02/07 19:19
A: The image of Mary as a prostitute is never portrayed in the bible itself.
It is Church teachings that turned her into this (for the church's own agenda).
If you look at where the Cult of Isis was dominant in europe and asia minor you will find that the worship of The Virgin Mary is very prevalent.
The church did not start to venerate The Virgin until they were losing Christians to Isis.
I find it interesting that that so many do not see that women have been used and abused to propagate the male religeon of Christianity.
Name:SueB •
Date: 03/05/07 20:10
A: I will never believe the myth about Mary Magdalene and Jesus. Mary Magdalene was canonized a saint by the Catholic Church. Alot of people are unaware that many of our Catholic saints including Mary Magdalene consecrated themselves to Jesus as a "Bride of Christ" spiritually. When people consecrate themselves today they even go so far as to wear a wedding band as a symbol of their commitment to Christ, just like nuns do when they take their vows. It is a spiritual marriage...not in the sense or superficial way that we view marriage. Consecrations as a "bride of Christ" datesWAY BACK to the beginnings of the Apostolic faith or Catholic Church. Mary Magdalene was probably one of the first saints who consecrated herself as a "bride to Christ." If you read the testimonies of the saints you will understand the truth. It does not surprise me a bit that someone turned her consecration to Christ into a myth.
Name:SueB •
Date: 03/05/07 20:51
A: Ollypop, Mary Magdalene was possesed by demons. How does that factor in with the Church's agenda? It was Jesus, the Universal/Catholic Church's first High Priest who drew the demons out of her. Our holy priests dating all the way back to St. Peter have been given the power by Jesus to forgive sins. Have you ever noticed that only a holy ordained priest can cast demons out of a human being? Why do you think that is?
Since when is Christianity a male religion?
Name:anne •
Date: 03/06/07 1:56
A: Get over your self!!!!!!!! She sinned and married... Done!!!!!!!
Name:bella •
Date: 03/06/07 4:07
A: No one receives power by a token ritual. Get over it. There may be some priests that trully are phenomenal human beings, but the title priest is not why. Of course the RCC is a male religion: no woman can become a priest, and to assure there is no female influence, the priests also cannot get married. By the same token, I'd like to point out that christianity is not the only patriarchal religion. Most religions in fact are.
Name:JMD •
Date: 03/17/07 9:00
A: I think there's another reason why Mary Magdalene was slandered by the Catholic church: why they turned her into a harlot, sinner, and all of that, who then redeemed herself. (out of their guilt, for telling tales, they made her a saint).
It wasn't just because she was such a threat to the patriarchal church, and they had to silence her, due to their male dominated agenda.
While that was perhaps the main reason, I think it was also to balance out the feminine, because they psychologically messed it all up so much.
The church, due to all their sexual hangups, and fears of the feminine and women -which can be seen in the quotes above as regards marriage and the 'wickedness' of women -insisted on celibate priests and nuns, made Jesus' mother a forever virgin, pure and holy and unreal, and contradictory (a mother who is also a virgin. And we're supposed to take this 'literally'?!) The immaculate deception? And yet some accuse Simcha of spinning tales?! Please.
Anyway, since they had this archetype of a pure forever Virgin Mary, that the priests and bishops could 'safely' pray to, their (psuedo-mother goddess?), they counter-balanced this bizarre scene, by slandering Mary Magdalene, as they needed a real, live, sexy, flesh and blood woman (to project their sexual hangups and fears upon?, i.e. which is really why they call women wicked, evil, etc.), to attempt to balance things out. So they made her a sinner, 'the repentant whore' - when she should really be by the side of Jesus Christ -the lost bride.
So in my opinion, that's really the 'two sides of Mary' - polar opposites: Mary the pure perpetual sexless untouchable virgin mother vs Mary the sexy sinner harlot who repents. Talk about a psychological headtrip. It can be said that they've slandered 'both' Marys!
Name:Kelly L. Fleming •
Date: 03/18/07 15:59
A: A poster said "The church did not start to venerate The Virgin until they were losing Christians to Isis."
This is not correct,
"According to Ephiphanius as early sect of Christian women called the Collyridians admitted women into the Priesthood. Their central ritual involved the offering of a small cake . In Greek the name a small cake is Collyris - the name Collyridians means Cake worshipers. The Collyridians worshipped Mary as Sophia. (...) The book the Virgin by Geoffrey Ashe traces the Collyridians back to Mary herself. Mary rebuffed by the church, left and founded a community of holy women. The Collyridians continued to florish after Mary's death and around the 5th century the church assimilated their Mariam worship in to the curch under the agreement that the priesthood would be for men only. This is why mary whorship first appears as part of the Christian Church at this time, not because she was suddenly being venerated, but because her cult of women was so large that the Catholic Church wanted to absorb them in." Taken from Secrets of the Trees and Flowers of Mary's Apparitions by Kelly L. Fleming - Gypsy Goddess Publishing
P.S. It is not clear from early details whether the Collyridians were started by Mother Mary or Master Miriame. My personal belief is that
they both were involved, perhaps Master Miriame is totally responsible
for the Collyridians as they worshiped Sophia, and JC told Miriame
in the Pistus Sophia that she was the incarnation of Sophia.
Name:lady andromeda •
Date: 03/19/07 5:34
A: Kelly, Thanks for sharing the info about the "Collyridians"! I read and remembered that I had seen something about *dough* or *cakes* in material about a *Miryai*. If you go into the Mandaean material in Gnostic Library you will find a Book of John or Yahya. In it look for the info on a Miryai who is departing from the Jewish traditions. I happen to question whether she might be our Mary Magdalene. Here is the info that reminded me of your Collyridian:
"From the moment and the day when thou didst detach the dough has it been covered up..."
The footnote description of that statement reads:
"Lev. 15:20,21: "Of the first of your dough (marg. coarse meal) ye shall offer up a cake for a heave-offering"
I just thought that was an ODD coincidence! Who knows! Take care now.
Name:lady andromeda •
Date: 03/19/07 6:25
A: I was just wondering if anyone noticed that in the Acts of Philip when supposedly Philip was told to go to Hierapolis and his sister Mariamne speaks with Jesus about it, he tells her "and do thou change thy woman's aspect and go with Philip."
Now, read in the Gospel of Thomas:
Peter: "Let Mary leave us, for women are not worthy of life".
Jesus: "I, myself, shall lead her in order to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every woman who will make herself male will enter the Kingdom of Heaven."
At first I thought that Jesus was speaking *figuratively* BUT- maybe, maybe not.
Later in the Acts of Philip when Mariamne is stripped it is implied that she has deceived them in her appearance.
So, to me, this *possibly connects Philip's Mariamne at least to the Mary in Thomas' gospel.
What think you all?
Name:Kelly L. Fleming •
Date: 03/19/07 19:25
A: Dear Lady Andromeda -
Yes, Acts of Philip has two examples of the women disciples putting on male attire!
Peter hates Mary Magdalene, in the Pistis Sophia Magdalene, after being yelled at by Peter for asking and answering more that the other disciples, is quiet for a bit, then pipes in, that she would like to talk again, but fears Peter because he hates her & her sex. There is a definite rivalry between Magdalene and Peter.
Blessings!
Love + Light
Kelly L. Fleming
Gypsy Goddess
Sacred Alchemy Products
Name:Elizabeth •
Date: 03/27/07 1:30
A: And anyone who "truly" knows Jesus- would know, if He picked any woman, it would certainly be one like Mary of Magdalene.
To understand this- read the Gospels and know His personality. Recall the days of Joshua and Jericho. Remember all that were slain, yet one lived as well as her family. And she was called a harlot. Learn why she lived, yet the others perished...
We try to interpret God by mankind's definitions and we continue to fail- miserably. We "see" through a murky glass of water- of our own will.
ED
Name:sam •
Date: 03/27/07 16:19
A: Lady Andromeda & Kelly L. Fleming,
You stated that Mary Magdalene was hated by Peter, "Let Mary leave us, for women are not worthy of life. -THOMAS".
And women in general were hated by PAUL,
"A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I don't permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner" (I Timothy 2:11-14).
From what I read, and by using the LOGIC I can say that MARY the mother of Jesus, the MOTHER OF GOD as a woman WAS HATED TOO, but we know that God loved Mary and chose her to be the mother of His son Jesus!!!, And Jesus loved His mother & sisters and Mary Magdalene (they are women).That is for sure confusing to any one who uses the common sense and understand logic.
The Virgin Mary, the Mother of God!, She must spoke and said many things, beside saying "they run out f wine", can anyone tell me if she said something else, and why her word and her stories about her son life were egnored ?.
My question to you, "ARE THE CHRISTIANS FOLLOWING JESUS THE CHRIST AND HIS TEACHING?, OR THEY ARE FOLLOWING PAUL, PETER, THE POPES &BISOPS AND THE SAINTS TEACHINGS?." This question is for anyone to answer.
The Christians are forced to believe in what they are told by Paul;
“But even if WE (Paul and his followers), or an ANGEL (God’s Angel) from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, HE IS TO BE ACCURSED.” Galatians- 1:8
Even the God's Angels can be accursed if they did not accept his chosen gospels!!!, do you think he went too far?.
The former catholic Nun, Mary Ann Collins said: the churches “Forbidden people to interpret the bible for themselves.”.......
“ The interpretation left to the popes, bishops, those the brilliant ones who call themselves the ruler of the world, and the holiest men on earth.”
But when we go to the history books we find the truth about those men, They are not fit to be attached to Jesus and His real honest followers.
Mary Ann, said:
“I believe in the trinity. There is only one God. But there is the father, the son (Jesus), and the holy spirit. Jesus Christ is truly God and truly Man.”
Then she said:
“I DON’T UNDERSTAND HOW THIS WORK Then, she said:
“We need the truth, even when it is painful.”
If any Christian is honestly seeking the truth will find it by going back to the main source, and the source is the words of Jesus Himself and His teaching, His words holds the whole truth, and His words are easy to understand.
Mary Ann, said: “Ordinary people can understand the bible. We don’t have to rely on experts or church officials. The "BASIC PRINCIPLE ARE SIMPLE" enough for a child to understand."
She is 100% right on that, but when you add to the the basic the works and the philosophy of the others, then thing will change and become hard to understand, as Mary Ann said
"religion of SOPHISTICATED “adult”, full of rules, and rituals, and COMPLICATED THEOLOGY, AND TONGUE-TWISTING TECHNICAL TALK."
She is 100% right again, the simple christianity changed an developed after Jesus death, and mainly when it moved from the holy land to Rome.
Here are the words of Jesus:
1- “.....Have you not read what was spoken to you by GOD”. (from Abraham and Moses)
2- “I AM the GOD of Abraham and the GOD of Isaac, and the GOD of Jacob...”. (the first commandment: -YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME."
3- “..... HE who is in heaven...”. (God in heaven and not on earth, the Holy Spirit.)
4- “ How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from THE ONE AND ONLY GOD?”. (the God who is in heaven)
5- “ When you lift up THE SON OF MAN (Jesus) , then you will know THAT I AM HE...” (Jesus is the son of man and not the son of God)
John- 17:3 “THIS IS ETERNAL LIFE, THAT THEY MAY -‘KNOW YOU’-, -‘THE ONLY TRUE GOD’-, AND JESUS CHRIST WHOM YOU HAVE SENT.
(Did Jesus meant here, that HE is the son of GOD or HE is the GOD?, or it was clear that He meant, there is only one true GOD who sent HIM, who is in heaven?.)
John-17:28 ...;I have not come on myself, -‘BUT HE WHO SENT ME IS TRUE’- whom you do not know. ( God who sent Jesus is true, and He is the "one and only God-J5:44", God whom no one knows. that is 100% true)
“THE ONLY TRUE GOD”— “HE WHO SENT ME IS TRUE” ---
"TRUE GOD"..... "GOD- WHOM YOU DO NOT KNOW"
*SEEK THE GLORY THAT IS FROM THE ONE AND ONLY GOD*
Can anyone doubt what Jesus said.
The Quran "another holy book" said:
Q- 19:34 THAT IS JESUS, THE SON OF MARY - ‘THE WORD OF TRUTH’- ABOUT WHICH THEY ARE IN DISPUTE.
They are in dispute about Jesus and Mary and the Gospels and many other things, and that is 100% true.
Disputes then debates all arise when the truth is mixed with false, and that came from developping the original teaching and add to it the teachings of others who wanted to make personal gain.
1Corinthians 9:7 Who at any time serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat the fruit of it? Or who tends a flock and does not use the milk of the flock?.
Jesus teaching wasn't about personal rewards or milking the flock, but about bringing back God's commandments which people forgets and bringing the lost people to woship their God only. Jesus spends whole nights in prayer to God, but people changed things and the give their prayers to Jesus, and Mary!!!, and ask the help from the saints, whom been created by the popes and bishops of their churches!!!.
People are forgetting what Jesus said:
"Truly, truly, I say to you, you will see the heavens opened and THE ANGELS OF 'GOD' ASCENDING AND DESCENDING ON THE 'SON OF MAN' " J-1:51 (the angels of GOD, and not Jesus angels)
"WHOEVER SPEAKS A WORD AGAINST THE 'SON OF MAN' (Jesus), IT SHALL BE FORGIVEN HIM; BUT WHOEVER SPEAKS AGAINST THE 'HOLY SPIRIT' (GOD), IT SHALL NOT BE FORGIVEN HIM..." M12:32
(the words against 'GOD ONLY' shall not be forgiven, IS THAT CLEAR OR YOU HAVE DOUBT IN JESUS WORDS?, did you know that when you claim that God has a son and the son is God, those are your words against God, and against His commandments?)
I hope one day, we achieve what Jesus asked us to do: “honor your father and your mother, and YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF” Matthew-19:19 ;
- first “you shall love your LORD (GOD)...”, second “you shall love your neighbor as yourself.” - There is no other commandment greater than these.” Mark-12:30-31.
God bless you all.
Name:lady andromeda •
Date: 03/28/07 5:39
A: Sam, You missed my point. In the Acts of Philip when Jesus tells Mariamne to *change her womans aspect and go with Philip*. She goes dressed more as a male. And in the Gospel of Thomas when Jesus is answering Peter about Mary *not being worthy of life*, I don't necessarily see Peter attacking Mary so much as pointing out that the very idea of teaching a woman might attract too much negative attention. SO, Jesus replies that he will make her as a male. I believe it is then *suggested* to her to dress as a male to not stir up trouble from outsiders.
I was then trying to make the connection of Acts of Philip's Mariamne with Gospel of Thomas' Mary. I am basically trying to prove that they might be one and the same. I just wanted some opinions on the idea. Sorry for the confusion Sam. Take care now.
Name:Kelly L. Fleming •
Date: 03/30/07 16:26
A: Peter told Magdalene "She was not worthy of life". Meaning,
she is not worthy to ascend to the kingdom with the male
disciples. JC says, "he will make her male". This is so she
can enter the kingdom, which apparently is for male prophets
only - no women. It doesn't mean that Peter thought MM should
be struck dead - although Peter does strike 2 people dead in
Gnostic texts.
In the text the Acts of Peter - a little tidbit about Peter, that shows
more about how he felt about women.
Peter was "curing" people from sickness and was asked by someone in the crowd, Why don't you cure your own daughter who is a cripple? Peter said, Because of her beauty she would lead many men astray, so I will not cure her. Then the crowd did not believe that he could cure her, so he commanded his daughter, a cripple to arise from her bed. Peter's beautiful daughter rose up and walked to the amazement of the crowd. Then Peter condemed her back to sickness, because she was beautiful.
Love + Light
Kelly L. Fleming
Gypsy Goddess
Sacred Alchemy Products
P.S. JC says to Peter in the Bible, "Get behind me satan."
