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Name: Perceptions • Title: WHO will come??? • Date posted: 03/17/07 17:26

Q: Kindly do not misunderstand, but DID JESUS MEAN ANOTHER PERSON........THE MESSIAH OF THE END TIMES?

- Who will be REJECTED, at first. (Otherwise if someone lands from the sky he can't be rejected)

- NOE' TIME will be repeated, some selected-- those who will be spirtually alive, others rejected--those who will be spirtually dead.

LOT"S TIME, referring to another kind of affliction of the present time, obviously.

GOSPEL OF LUKE:

Luk 17:22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see [it].

Luk 17:23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after [them], nor follow [them].

Luk 17:24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one [part] under heaven, shineth unto the other [part] under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

Luk 17:25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed [them] all.

Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Luk 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

Luk 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.

Luk 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

Luk 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two [men] in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

Luk 17:35 Two [women] shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Luk 17:36 Two [men] shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Luk 17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body [is], thither will the eagles (vulture in other translations)be gathered together.

Name: Perceptions • Date: 03/20/07 2:50

A: Roy and Nate !

What would you say about it???

Name: Perceptions • Date: 04/11/07 13:15

A: Hi Sam,

Kindle forward your views on this. What this Prophecy of the 2 nd. coming meant?

Obliged

Name: onewhoknows • Date: 04/11/07 19:42

A: Perceptions, sorry it is not Roy or Nate. Is Nate still on the forum? .... I wanted to talk to him again. The prophecy in Luke refers to the same Messiah. The first time He came as a lamb and the second He is to come as king.

By the way, the guy in Houston who claims to be Jesus, and has lots of followers, is not the Messiah (Luke 17:23).

Name: Perceptions • Date: 04/11/07 23:22

A: Hi One!

It's an old post of mine . Unfortunately no one responded. I found Sam talking about his coming in another thread , so it reminded me of this old post.
I have no Idea about where Nate could be, might be busy somewhere or might had gone to visit TOJ ( just joking)

Thanks for the information.Well who is Houston anyway?

Name: Panluna • Date: 04/12/07 1:44

A: It could refer to a different person with the same spiritual zeal that Jesus had or perhaps just a reminder in words alone of his teachings.

Name: CanuckChick • Date: 04/12/07 13:19

A: Quoting from "Insight on the Scriptures":

"Farther on, (in Revelations) John says: ""And I saw the wild beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage the war with the one seated on the horse and with his army.""(Rev 19:19)

This chapter identifies the leader of the heavenly armies, seated on a white horse, as one who is called "Faithful and True" and "The Word of God." (Rev 19:11-13) Therefore, it is Jesus Christ, The Word, who acts as the commander of God's heavenly armies. (Joh 1:1; Rev 3:14)

Further showing that Christ leads the heavenly forces is the statement that the earthly forces "battle with the Lamb (who is Jesus Christ -Joh 1:29 - but, because he is Lord of lords and King of kings, the Lamb will conquer them. Also, those called and chosen and fatihful with him will do so." (Rev 17:13, 14)

Name: Panluna • Date: 04/12/07 15:05

A: So IT IS in His words!

Name: sam • Date: 04/12/07 18:15

A: Perceptions,

"Kindle forward your views on this. What this Prophecy of the 2 nd. coming meant?".

In reading these verses we will find that they are examples, many of them mentioned by Jesus (the fig tree another one).
Everyone should know that even Jesus was talking to His disciples, His word are not directed to them only, "The days will come", but to the future generations, those who will witness what is to come.
In this, we see that Jesus attached His example with the stories told about "NOAH" & "LOT". We might ask ourselves Why?, BECAUSE WHAT HAPPEN BEFORE WILL HAPPEN AGAIN.

- GE 6:13 And God said unto NOAH, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them (CAN WE SEE THE VIOLENCE THAT HAPPEN AFTER JESUS TIME); and, behold, I will DESTROY THEM with the earth.
- Ge 19:23 The sun was risen upon the earth when LOT entered into Zoar.
Ge 19:29 And it came to pass, when God DESTROYED THE CITIES of the plain, that God remembered Abraham, and sent LOT out of the midst of the overthrow, when he overthrew the cities in the which Lot dwelt.

Jesus started by saying to His disciples:
-"The days will come", those days will come in the future, and that is after Jesus and the disciples time.
-"when YOU SHALL DESIRE to see ONE OF THE DAYS OF THE SON OF MAN and YOU SHALL NOT SEE IT ."
"YOU" at that time.
What about THOSE DAYS, that they will have the desires to see but they shall not see?, are those the days when Jesus was among them teaching them the right way, the word of God, and that they should believe in HIM as the one and only God, as NOAH and LOT did before Him?, But those days of the past will not be the same, and they will not see it again.
Why Jesus telling them that in those days, after His days, they (the people) shall not see? (the day) the same as of His days, because they will stop following His teaching, and making their own, and Jesus wanted to tell them what will happen to them in those days, by saying at the end:

"Where the body is, there also the vultures will be gathered."

The exsamples: " THE BODY...THE VOLTURES" which Jesus gave has the same ending as for, "DESTROY THEM" & "DESTROYED THE CITIES" at the time of Noah and Lot.

We find the same stories told of the past prophets. All the prophet brought with them the message of God, and it was clear and simple, but people after they accept it, they try to add and substruct according to what they believe is right and make their own teaching, "SETTING ASIDE THE COMMANDMENT OF GOD IN ORDER TO KEEP YOUR (their) TRADITION". And the same stories tell us what was the result of doing such a thing. It always lead to the ditruction, (the people death and the voltures) or the distruction of the cities and its people, except for those who follow the right teaching, they are saved (the followers of Noah and Lat are saved). All that is an advance worning, and people should understand that example.

The Quran gave same example:
"Say, "Observe what is in the heavens and the earth." But of no avail will be SIGNS OR WARNERS to a people who do not believe.
So do they wait except for like (what occured in ) THE DAYS OF THOSE WHO PASSED ON BEFORE THEM? (the days of Noah and Lot and Moses and Jesus). Say, "then wait; indeed, I AM with you among the waiting." Q-10:101/102

"Like the custom of the people of NOAH and of AAD and THAMUD and those after them (Lot etc.). And GOD wants no injustice for His servants."

What I read (in Luke) , does't tell us of the coming of Jesus, but it is no more than an example of His time (the son of man IN HIS DAY) which He compare it to the spreading of light in the heaven (the sky) from one end to the other, and mentioning the rejection OF THIS GENERATION. And what happen before Him will happen again (17:26), and "THE DAYS WILL COME. 17:22" (THE SAMETHING WILL COME IN THE FUTURE.17:26)

Luk 17:24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one [part] under heaven, shineth unto the other [part] under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
Luk 17:25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.
Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

This is my understanding for what I read in those vesres, I don't mind, and I will be glad if I hear the others opinion.

God bless you.

Name: sam • Date: 04/12/07 23:38

A: Canuckchick,

As a Christian you suppose to support your case by THE WORDS OF JESUS, but as all the others you go to bring stories written by someone else. Here you used many verses from the Revelation (who wrote the revelation?, was it Jesus?).
Also, you mention what John said (of course those are John's and not Jesus word).
John 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God.
1:2 He was * in the biginning with God.
Saying that is completely wrong, because this does not agree with the teaching of the church, "the son and the father and the holy gost" as three persons but one God. Here 1:1 & 1:2 cannot be logically accepted, because the first say that "the word. the word with God, and the word was God", and that means, in the biginnng there was the word and the word was God and that to tel that there is ONE GOD. But in the second, thing changed, and to tell us that in the biginning there was someone else with God, "HE" (?) WAS WITH GOD !!!.
"HE WAS"? , Who is the one, who was with God in the biginning?, and from that we understand that God was not alone. And Jesus said:
"THE ONE AND ONLY GOD" & "THAT THEY MAY KNOW YOU (GOD), THE ONLY TRUE GOD, and Jesus Christ WHOM YOU (GOD) HAVE SENT."
Jesus was sent by God, and He is not the God who sent Jesus. You use the term "GOD BLESS YOU" because the blessing comes only from God.

After all, I can say, What a story!!!, since no one was with God in the biginning, and knows all the truth about God (GOD, WHOM YOU DO NOT KNOW...HE, WHO IS IN HEAVEN). Also, I can say this story is false. John started his gospel with a false story and ended it with false story when he sais:
"And there are ALSO MANY OTHER THINGS which Jesus did, which IF THEY WERE WRITTEN IN DETAIL, "I SUPPOSE" THAT EVEN "THE WORLD ITSELF" WOULD NOT CONTAIN THE BOOKS THAT WOULD BE WRITTEN!!!"
3 years only, that was the time which Jesus spent preaching and teaching and doing his miracles, but if someone like John start writing the books the world will not contain them!!!, but we know for sure and we can support that by facts, that since the writing started, and from that time until now, even with the billions of people writng every day for many thousands of years still the world can contain those books.

Even this gospel called John gospel, but I don't know if he was one of Jesus disciples or not, but i know that he wrote stories told by the others.
"That disciple would not lie" 21:23.... & 21:24 "This is the disciple who is testifying to these things AND WROTE THIS THINGS*, and WE KNOW THAT HIS TETIMONY IS TRUE".
* John wrote from what he read, from the one who WROTE THIS THINGS, and he accepted his testimony as true, and you are and the many others accepting the stories of John wich came from someone you do not know as true!!!, while it cannot be accepted logically by anyone who seek the truth, and nothing but the truth.
I wonder who is this disciple that "HE" would not lie, and "HIS" testimony accepted without any question asked.

God bless you.

Name: roy • Date: 04/12/07 23:51

A: Perceptions,
the future can not be predicted and known even by God. God writes all the possible paths before it happens, as it is in a computer programming. He waits peoples reaction, and Creates. There are exceptions to this rule anytime He wishes. As He is Omnipotent. We see it in Paroah & Moses 9 miracles, Jesus and his opponents, Lot and people Noah and people and finaly Mohammad and Mecca people.
If the future is well known by God why did He bother to create the universe?Why He sent prophets to guide with books? He try us, warn us, send case studies, we are all tested in due course.
In the future no Jesus will come again. Although christians and half of muslims believe so, it is not written anywhere except sceptical hadith books for muslims. Why should he come? What is the odds to convert everyone in second descend, as he couldnt convince 100 % of the living people in his first coming?
The universe will collapse within itself at the time God wish so. Untill then take care.

Name: Shlomo • Date: 04/13/07 5:28

A: Study the new covenant or the Qu'ran [if that is your preference] by itself objectively without any input or references from other books or stories, you must eliminate or ignore any and all old or new covenant verses borrowed, mentioned, rewritten or written as a proof and determine if it can stand on its own merit [ In order to understand, one must strip the veil or screen, to see its true nature]. It is not easy to do, but you will learn and understand certain issues that you never thought existed and you will obtain further insight into what you really believe or thought you believed. Answers will pop out at you over the course of this kind of exercise. No, Roy this is not a dawah for another belief!

Name: roy • Date: 04/13/07 14:01

A: Shlomo wrote:
"Study the new covenant or the Qu'ran [if that is your preference] by itself objectively without any input or references from other books or stories, you must eliminate or ignore any and all old or new covenant verses borrowed, mentioned, rewritten or written as a proof and determine if it can stand on its own merit "

Roy Wrote:
I am positive for all what you say above. I apply this idea to Quran. I have no clue how to differ the real Bible from the addition parts in it. If you know a way to eliminate I wil be reading New testament more objectively.
I read bible and found many common things in religions, so much that hadith producers has copied those fairy tales from bible and put them in their books as if ohammad told them. Some are against Quran.Example: David has lured the neighbors wife after explicit story described.

My effort is for understand the truth to b eable to pray God in a better way. The artificial dawahs are of no interest to me.

Name: CanuckChick • Date: 04/13/07 15:53

A: Sam: You say that as a Christian, I must support my beliefs by the words of Jesus. A record of his words are in the bible. I believe the entire bible is inspired by God and anything contained therein is reliable. I must rely on the bible writers to faithfully record Jesus' words, and do not think that God would allow any error to stand, including their own testimony.

It seems illogical to me that we would trust in the accuracy of the bible writers when recording Jesus' own words, but mistrust them when it comes to recording their own eyewitness accounts.

I do not believe in a triune God (a trinity). It would appear that Jesus had a prehuman existence, as The Word.

John 1:1----------
"and the word was a god" - The New Testament, in An Improved Version
"and the Logos was a god" - The Monotessaron
"and a god was the Word" - The Emphatic Diaglott
"and the Word was divine" - The Bible - An American Translation
"and the Word was a god" - New World Translation
"and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word" - Das Evangelium nach Johannes

Jesus himself spoke of his prehuman heavenly life many times. (John 3:13; 6:38, 62; 8:23, 42, 58)

Proverbs 8:22, 23 - "Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth."

Proverbs 8:30, 31 - "then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men."

John (of the gospel) was indeed one of Jesus' disciples, and an eyewitness to the things he wrote about.

I hope this answers your post, Sam.

CC

Name: sam • Date: 04/13/07 16:18

A: Canuckchic,

You quoted this: "Further showing that Christ leads the heavenly forces is the statement that the earthly forces "battle with the Lamb (who is Jesus Christ -Joh 1:29 - but, because he is Lord of lords and King of kings, the Lamb will conquer them. Also, those called and chosen and fatihful with him will do so." (Rev 17:13, 14)
---------------------------------------

- God and Jesus , they do not battle with earthly forces, and if God the almighty He is really a God, then He can change things without going into battle with the people on earth.
- Jesus Christ is the Lord of the Lord and King of the King (Jupiter is the God of Gods for the Romans), and the Popes are the king of this world and the holiest men on earth, and the saints (popes, bishops and others) will judge the Angels of heaven (the Angels of Gog)!!!.
BEHOLD, MY SERVANT WHOM I HAVE CHOSEN. M23:9 - Jesus is the servant of God.
Why do you call good? NO ONE IS GOOD EXCEPT GOD ALONE. MR 10:18 - By the word of Jesus GOD ALONE IS GOOD.
---------------------------------------

Also,- those called and chosen and fatihful with him will do so." (Rev 17:13, 14)

THE CHOSEN AND FAITHFUL!!!, WHO ARE THEY?
and they will conquer ? , conquer whom?, do they or did they first conquer the evil that within them, go check the history please.
- From the time of Jesus until this day April 13 2007, there are more war and conquerors and more killings and burnings among Jesus followers than any other religion on this earth, and even more than the atheist!!!.

CONQUER, "Jesus, King of kings, the Lamb will conquer them!!!."
Jesus came to teach the people of this earth "LOVE" & "PEACE", and not WARS AND CONQUER. Jesus came to remind the people (the believer in God) about the commandment of God, those which came direct to the prophet Moses. and I am going to bring some here to remind you and the others who forget them:
- YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME. (the one and only God).
- YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FOR YOURSELF AN IDOL.....
- YOU SHALL NOT TAKE THE NAME OF THE LORD YOUR GOD IN VAIN.... (The christians claim a lot of thing to God, even war and conquer)
- YOU SHALL NOT MUDER. And they do kill and burn people by the millions!!!.
- YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTRY. (I think you heard about the adultry which took place in the houses of God, and if not I can bring you all the news. and not to forget you intertainment, TV'S and CLUBS etc. all run by the, those called and chosen and fatihfu)
- YOU SHALL NOT STEAL. (I read that the churches in Europe are full with gold stolen from the Americas, and even they use it for the statues of Jesus and Mary and the saints !!!, can anyone deny this fact?)

You should wake up and see the truth, because you are blinded by the faith wich you created and it is not the real Christianity that came from the teaching of Jesus. You live in a mirage.

God bless you.

Name: CanuckChick • Date: 04/13/07 16:26

A: Sam: Not all Christians (followers of Christ) identify themselves as being part of Christendom.

Christendom will have much to answer for (atrocities detailed in your post) on the last day.

Name: Shlomo • Date: 04/14/07 0:29

A: Roy, here is an example hopefully to give you some idea of what I am referring to in the exercise: Pauls contention of a proof text:

I Cor.2:6-8 "no eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived, what G_d has prepared for those who love him."

The original verse is from Isaiah 64:3 "never has the ear heard or the eye seen a G_d beside you, who works for the one who waits for him."

You see Paul was eager to boost his doctrine, this is why one must eliminate biased references and sayings to obtain the true meaning to see if a verse like this can stand on its own, even the entire book of the new covenant or Qu'ran. Pauls verse does not stand on its own, it has been plagerized and altered.

Name: Shlomo • Date: 04/14/07 0:47

A: Roy, let me clarify further. How any people know there were two Bet-Lechems in Israel during this period of Jesus? There was a Bet-Lechem of Zebullun, 7 miles west of Nazareth and there was a Bet-Lechem over 60 miles to the south in Judea. Which one would fit prophecy? Which one was the real one this person Jesus came from? Which one with all propability would stand on its own without prophecy reference from the old covenant?

Name: roy • Date: 04/14/07 14:05

A: Shlomo,
Many thanks for comments. I am not familiar with biblical studies that much. The main concern for me , I want to know which verses are more likely of God word, which have less likelihood being genuine.
It is crucial if all of us can make the difference. It would have been milestone of christianity and muslims if any other early age bibles have been found and croschecked.
If you have any ideas which parts are added, tell me so I concentrate on them. We muslims believe in Christ was given holy book.

Name: sam • Date: 04/15/07 0:34

A: Canuckchick,

"I believe the entire bible is inspired by God and anything contained therein is reliable."
--------------------------------
Retired- Bishop John S. Spong wrote:
- "The BIBLE full of CONTRADICTIONS AND ERRORS"..."The GOSPELS CANNOT BE TRUSTED TO BE RELIABLE".
If the Bible and the Gospels were inspired by God, then they suppose to be perfect and tells the truth about everything. The story of the six days creation is completely wrong, and the sories Of Noah and the flood cannot be accepted logically, and the stories of Abraham and his descendent, are stories of people with their differences, God Has nothing to do with their inheritance and their family problems.
The story of M-4:1-11, about Jesus and the devil, is wrong, it was not mentioned by Jesus, but it is the creation of the people. This story, that tells us that the devil took Jesus to show Him the kingdoms of the world etc., makes the devil knows more than Jesus (your God), and that cannot be accepted by anyone who believe in the Holy Spirit, the almighty.

"I must rely on the bible writers to faithfully record Jesus' words, and do not think that God would allow any error to stand, including their own testimony. "
-----------------------------------
The writers of the books, recorded Jesus activities and His miracles and His words faithfully, and all that represents the truth, the word of Jesus came to Him from God, and they are protected (J-12:49), BUT, when they added their own works, and their own stories which comes from their own imaginations, and write things which cannot be accepted logically that is what makes the books full with errors and cannot be trusted as the Bishop said.
And saying, "God would "not" allow any error to stand". For God sake how do you know what God allow or not allow?, even Jesus Himself does not know about the thing that God knows, (But of that day and hour no one knows NOT EVEN THE ANGELS OF HEAVEN, NOR THE SON (JESUS), BUT THE FATHER (GOD) ALONE. M-12:37, You people always say things about God as you been with Him, and even you know what He think too!!!!.

It seems illogical to me that we would trust in the accuracy of the bible writers when recording Jesus' own words, but mistrust them when it comes to recording their own eyewitness accounts.
------------------------------
LOGIC LOGIC, please,
Recording Jesus OWN WORDS, and recording HIS MOVEMENTS, and recording HIS MIRACLES, done by many people who heard from Him and witnessed by many of his followers including His disciples, for that we can trust these records.
BUT it does not mean to trust everyone else, there is big difference between what Jesus said and what the others said, specially when something sais about Him while there was no other witnesses.
Again we look at the story of the DEVIL. M4:1-11, and my questions are:
1- In the forty days which Jesus spent in the wilderness, was He accompanied by anyone or He was alone?.
2- Did the devil take anyone else beside Jesus, when he "TOOK HIM...LET HIM STAND ON THE PINNACLE OF THE TEMPLE" ?,(here it clearly say "took Him" and that prove they were alone.
3- Again, in the next trip it say "TOOK HIM TO A VERY HIGH MOUNTAIN", were they alone?, and if not who was with them?.
4- You said, (A)- " when it comes to recording their own eyewitness accounts." & (B)- " writers when recording Jesus' own words".
My question about (A), Is it true that Matthew and Luke were with Jesus for forty day in the wilderness, and then joined them in the long adventure and WITNESSED everything and heard the conversation to write it word by word?.
And as for (B), you think it is the same when the WRITERS writes Jesus words and acts while He is among them, and they can see and hear in real time, as writing things about Him while there was NO WITNESS?
5- If you know that there was an "EYEWITNESS" TO RECORD THIS STORY. Please support your answer by names.

I do not believe in a triune God (a trinity).
-------------------------------------
The former catholic Nun who changed to protestant wrote in her book (it is on her site "Mary Ann Collins".
"I BELIEVE IN THE TRINITY...I DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW IT WORK".
My question: "You do not believe in the trinity because of the same reason?, while there are billions of christians who believe in it, and they can prove this formula to you and to me and to all the others by quoting from the bible and the gospels even they use the words of the Emperor Constantene , even they use the words of Paul, and for sure he wasn't a trinitarian, because he believe that Jesus is the son of God, and that is what he preached in Damascus and for the first time after Jesus death, and many do not agree with him because they know that Jesus is the promissed prophet.

"It would appear that Jesus had a prehuman existence, as The Word."
------------------------------------------
APPEA-R- that do not bring a fact, either He or He is not.
If the trinity is hard to undersatand, what you made up here is hard to understand too. Can you explain it please, and can you bring something to prove that from Jesus words ONLY.
No one knows the truth about Jesus except Jesus Himself and the God who sent Him.

God bless you.

Name: roy • Date: 04/15/07 11:10

A: Answer well done, sam.
I wonder if you have any evidence which parts of bible is trustworthy as Quran? Do you know the sections names . I am and billions of muslims interested in reading bible, and act accordingly if they are sure that it is word of God revealed to Jesus.
As you know Muslim has faith in Bible as well as Quran.

Name: CanuckChick • Date: 04/15/07 22:08

A: Sam: Surely you jest. If I want to know about the bible, the LAST person I'm going to look to for information is an Episcopal Bishop...or ANY bishop, for that matter.

Again, I "borrow" heavily from the book, "Insight on the Scriptures"

Re Six Days of Creation:
The bible does not specify the length of each of the creative periods. That a day can be longer than 24 hours is indicated by Genesis 2:4, which speaks of ALL the creative periods as one "day". Also indicative of this is Peter's inspired observation that "one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day." (2Pe 3:8) Ascribing not just 24 hours but a longer period of time, thousands of years, to each of the creative days better harmonizes with the evidence found in the earth itself.

Re The Flood: Since you place great trust in Jesus' own words, see Matthew 24:37-39 "For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of Man will be. For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be."
See also Luke 17:26, 27 "Moreover, just as it occurred in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of man: they were eating, they were drinking, men were marrying, women were being given in marriage, until that day when Noah entered into the ark, and the flood arrived and destroyed them all."

Re Abraham and his descendants: You state that "God Has nothing to do with their inheritance and their family problems". As revealed in the Old Testament, Abraham received communications from God by means of visions and dreams, and entertained his angelic messengers. Look up Ge 12:1-3, 7; 15:1-8, 12-21; 18:1-15; 22:11, 12, 15-18. Indeed, God formed a covenant with Abraham, to be passed on the Abraham's posterity through Isaac (Ge 26:2-4) and Jacob (Gen 28:13-15; 35:11,12).

See also Hebrews 6:13-15 "For when God made his promise to Abraham, since he could not swear by anyone greater, he swore by himself, saying: ""Assuredly in blessing I will bless you, and in multiplying I will multiply you. And thus after Abraham had shown patience, he obtained this promise.""
Also Hebrews 11:17-19 "By faith Abraham, when he was tested, as good as offered up Isaac, and the man that had gladly received the promises attempted to offer up his only-begotten son, although it had been said to him: ""What will be called """your seed""" will be through Isaac. But he reckoned that God was able to raise him up even from the dead; and from there he did receive him also in an illustrative way."

Re the account in Matthew 4:1-11: I don't see anything in this account to indicate that the devil knew more than Jesus. It shows me that since "all the kingdoms of the world and their glory" were the devil's to give, they must, in fact, belong to him.

Also, Jesus is not my God, but rather, his father Jehovah is.

This post is getting over-long and I'll do my best to answer the rest of your post later.

CC

Name: sam • Date: 04/16/07 1:19

A: Roy,

Thanks. Befeore answering your post I would like to explain few things.

THE "TRUTH". Is a great word, but it can be misused, for ex. two parties are claiming it (the truth) while they have differences. So, the most important question is, "how can we separate the "TRUE" from the "FALSE"?.
To do that,
(A) One has to stand in a neutral position,otherwise he will be chosing and accepting what he believe in before knowing the fact. (the blind beleivers)
(B) One has to use the right TOOLS to separate the true from the false, and they are " LOGIC", "REASONING" , "SCIENCES", "COMMON SENSE" etc., because the truth can be "COVERED" and "MANIPULATED".
(C) One should understand that the truth will prevail at the end, because "THE TRUTH NEVER DIES".

Roy, We all know that in the court of law there is a judge and two+ lawyers and the jury, and we know that the judge and jury should be neutral while listening to the defending lawers, whom they try to bring THEIR TRUTH for the case,and THE TRUTH CAN BE ONLY ONE, but a good lawer can win a case even if it was false. WHY?, the answer to that comes from the fact that in the law school and in the first years the lawyers has to study "LOGIC, PHILOSOPHY, PSYCHOLOGY, STATISTICS etc." and one lawyer can be better in defending his case using these tools mixtures, and if he can use those tools properly for sure he will win. There are many good Physicists, but there is only one EINSTEIN *.
I brought this to show you that in some cases even a neutral judge and jury can be manipulated by a good lawer, but even if that happen the truth will surface again in the future and in time.
The theories of Einstein and his words which are written in books became as a BIBLE to many scientists, and it was studied and taught, and hardly any one dare to question it, because it is Einstein word, (it was the truth for some time), but after time came Mr. Hubble with his famous SCIENTIFIC discoveries, "THE BIG BANG" and "THE EXPANDING UNIVERSE" etc., and Einstein scientific bible lost part of its glory, when faced by new facts, and if Einstein was great in bringing his work, he was a greater man when he ADMITED that he was wrong, by saying: "It was my biggest BLUNDER" and after he visited Mr. Hubble. Admiting ones mistake or wrong is a virtue, many know it but only few admitted.

Roy, you asked me:
"I wonder if you have any evidence which parts of bible is trustworthy as Quran?"
------------------------
First, let us understand the books.
-------------------------------
A- The Bible as you know is a set of many books, The containt are:
* 1- scientific work (the creation-in Genesis), that what they call it, but today facts tell us that these information are wrong, but the believer they do not want to admitted and still insist that it is the word of God!!!.
2- stories, those are mixed stuff, the false is mixed with the truth, and a knowgable person can separate them. (I will some the finding later on ).
3- Laws, those came to the prophets, in different time, and they represent the truth.
B- The Gospels, as the Bible there are many books, they chose some end the burn the rest !!!. They claim that their fathers chose the right one, but who knows now? they might chose what they prefer, and that was wrong, and it is a sort hinding the truth, and keep what agree with Paul's formula and his teaching, and that is clear by his own words:
"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." Gal1:8
So, the personal letters of Paul to his friends added to the gospels to become part of the hily book !!!.
Reading the different gospels one could find many differences and some words changed to go with the teaching of Paul: here an Example:
John 9:35 The new testament .............."THE SON OF MAN"
John 9:35 The bible (catholic online)........"THE SON OF GOD"
They are changing the words of Jesus !!!, and that is a forgery, and there are many. The stories of the forgeries in Rome are well known.
Also the gospels contains stories and myths which cannot be accepted logically, but people in the 21st century still believe in them as the word of God, here one:
Mark16:9 "Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, OUT OF WHOM HE HAD CAST SEVEN DEVIL ."
Seven devils !!!. Did anyone see the devil ?, Jesus did not tell this story, so who did?.
After all, I can say,even changing some words of Jesus, that does not effect on His message, and the message in total represent the truth and it is clear , and the honest people who seek the truth will find it, that is if they do not use Paul's and the others words.

After what I explained before, I will say "THE LAWS AND THE COMMANDMENTS IN THE BIBLE ARE THE MESSAGES FROM GOD AND SHOULD BE BELIEVED AND RESPECTED.
And "THE WORDS OF JESUS AND HIS COMMANDMENTS IN THE GOSPELS SHOULD BE BELIEVED AND RESPECTED, HIS WORDS CAME FROM GOD.
As we believe in the Prophet Muhammad, we should believe in Moses and Jesus and the other prophets that been mentioned in the Quran.

Do you know the sections names . I am and billions of muslims interested in reading bible, and act accordingly if they are sure that it is word of God revealed to Jesus.
------------------------------
In my next post to you I will bring some of the words of Jesus, which I believe that they should be accepted by the Muslims as the holy book (one Gospel).

As you know Muslim has faith in Bible as well as Quran.
-------------------------------
The words of Jesus only hold the whole truth, so we should them as we accept the words in the Quran, and we should have faith in both of them.

God bless you.

Name: Shlomo • Date: 04/16/07 5:35

A: Sam,

It is apparent that you did not use logic or reason to the full extent when is comes to the topic of Bereshit [ Genesis]. There is more science inbeded in Genesis than you realize and it does coincide with present day scientific age of the universe. In the beginning was the word? What word? What is your example for the second mitzvah of your ten mitzvot?

Name: roy • Date: 04/16/07 13:03

A: Sam
Thanks for explanations. I look forward to your other posts.

Canuckchick,
You say "Also, Jesus is not my God, but rather, his father Jehovah is."

What is this nonsence of believing in father-son, who is grandson ? us ? who is mother – virgin marry? who is bride? Amry Magdalene? wher do they dwell? israel north america?
Why son is not here any more, he must be eternal, but he is not alive now, wher is he, or where the mother of him? Only father of him alive?
If you put everything in a human formation, there will be too much absurdity to fight with.
Why Father God is in shape of human but not in shape of more finest shape of a flower, or as indians believe a cow?
What is your difference than indians and moses time jews if you believe God is in shape of human?

I put down Quranic verses against your assumption, if you give İslam benefit of the doubt, you win.

4:171 Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one God: glory be to him: (far exalted is He) above having a son.

2:116 And they say: Allah hath taken unto Himself a son. Be He glorified! Nay, but whatsoever is in the heavens and the earth is His. All are subservient unto Him.

10: 68- They say, Allah hath begotten a son glory be to him he is Self-Sufficient his are all things in the heavens and on earth no warrant have ye for this say ye about Allah what ye know not?

19: 35- It is not befitting To (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to him! when he determines a matter, He only says To it, be, and it is.

21:26 And they say: The Beneficent hath taken unto Himself a son. Be He glorified! Nay, but (those whom they call sons) are honoured slaves;

23:91 Allah hath not chosen any son, nor is there any God along with Him; else would each God have assuredly championed that which he created, and some of them would assuredly have overcome others. Glorified be Allah above all that they allege.

37:159 Glorified be Allah from that which they attribute (unto Him)

Name: CanuckChick • Date: 04/16/07 14:49

A: To Sam: (continued)

Re Bible inspiration: The apostle Paul stated at 2 Timothy 3:16: "All scripture is inspired of God."

The apostle Pater says of bible prophecy: "You know this first, that no prophecy of Scripture springs from any private interpretation. For prophecy was at no time brought by man's will, but men spoke from God as they were borne along by holy spirit." (2Peter 1:20,21) The evidence shows that God's spirit operated on the minds and hearts of all the Bible writers to carry them along to the goal purposed by God. Jesus himself attested to the fact that David had written Psalms 110 under the direction of "holy spirit". See Matthew 22:43 and Mark 12:36 for Jesus' own words.

Re your statement "even Jesus Himself does not know about the thing that God knows, (But of that day and hour no one knows NOT EVEN THE ANGELS OF HEAVEN, NOR THE SON (JESUS), BUT THE FATHER (GOD) ALONE". Again, this shows that Jesus is not part of a trinity, but separate and less powerful than God. I don't believe that the bible supports the notion of a trinity. The scripture that puts the final nail in the trinity coffin is 1Corinthians 15:28 - "But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone."

I don't pretend to know God's mind or how he thinks, other than how he has chosen to reveal himself through the scriptures.

Re: "It would appear that Jesus had a prehuman existence, as The Word."
-------------------------------------------
APPEA-R-- that do not bring a fact, either He or He is not.
If the trinity is hard to undersatand, what you made up here is hard to understand too. Can you explain it please, and can you bring something to prove that from Jesus words ONLY.

Jesus' words:

John 3:13 - " Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man."

John 6:38, 62 - "because I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me".
"What, therefore, if you should behold the Son of man ascending to where he was before?"
John 8:23, 42, 58 -
"So he went on to say to them: ""You are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. You are from this world; I am not from this world."""
"Jesus said to them: ""If God were your Father, you would love me, for from God I came forth and am here. Neither have I come of my own initiative at all, but that One sent me forth."""
"Jesus said to them: ""Most truly I say to you, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been."""

The person who became known as Jesus Christ did not begin life here on earth. Other texts identify Jesus as "the firstborn of all creation, "the beginning of the creation by God". (Col 1:15; Rev 1:1; 3:14) Thus the scriptures identify the Word (Jesus in his prehuman existence) as God's first creation, his firstborn Son.

Logically, it was to his firstborn Son that Jehovah said: "Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness." (Gen 1:26)

Peace,
CC

Name: CanuckChick • Date: 04/16/07 15:17

A: Roy, my flower...how goes it?

The source of your confusion re Father, Son, Bride, etc. is probably the teaching of the "trinity" by many of the churches in Christendom.

By my read, the bible teaches no such thing.

Take care,
CC

Name: sam • Date: 04/16/07 19:30

A: Canuckchick,

You said:
- "Sam: Not all Christians (followers of Christ) identify themselves as being part of Christendom."
--------------------------------------- "Catholic", "Protestant", "Angelican", "Orthodox", "Mormon", " etc., Here are some of the churches, and all of them believe in the trinity, so,can you tell me who is the real christian among them?, and as a christian yourself which one you follow?.

- "Sam: Surely you jest. If I want to know about the bible, the LAST person I'm going to look to for information is an Episcopal Bishop...or ANY bishop, for that matter."
---------------------------------
The information that the Bishop Spong brought are true and any one who is not blinded by his faith can come to the same findings, and he is not the only one who spoke the truth, the Bishop did not fabricate things, because it is clearly there, and telling the truth, is far much better than hiden it.

- "I do not believe in a triune God (a trinity). It would appear that Jesus had a prehuman existence, as The Word."
-------------------------------------------------
Mary- Ann ( catholic then protestan NUN), said: “I believe in the trinity.
- There is only one God.
- But there is the father, the son (Jesus), and the holy spirit.
- Jesus Christ is truly God and truly Man.”
As we understand from that, that the father and the holy spirit are not the same person.
The trinity formula has three persons "the father, the son, and the holy spirit, but they are one God, So when you do not believe in the trinity, that means you eliminate one or two persons from this formula.
Since we cannot eliminate the Holy Spirit (GOD), then there is only two left , the son and the father, (that is if the father is not the holy spirit as in the trinity formula) and since we cannot eliminate the father because he is the one who created the son, then I wonder what formula you have in mind, but if you believe in Jesus as the GOD and you try to prove that by Jesus' words:

John 3:13 - " Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man."
----------------------------------------------------------
-*- THE SON OF MAN, Not God or part of God. (If He ascended into or descended from heaven it is by the will of God His creator, and not by His own will. "I CAN DO NOTHING ON MY INITIATIVE. J5:30", and the next verses from John prove it too

John 6:38, 62 - "because I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but THE WILL OF HIM THAT HE SENT ME".
-------------------------------------------------------
NO-T- MY WILL (I hope you understand what it says here!)
BUT THE WILL OF HIM (GOD) THAT HE SENT ME. God sent Him and He cannot do anything without God permition, (I hope you understand Jesus message here, HE SENT ME !)

And when you said: "Jesus had a prehuman existence, as The Word." as if you are saying Jesus is God, and that is wrong, because Jesus said:
"But from now on THE SON OF MAN will be SEATED AT THE RIGHT HAND OF THE POWER OF GOD." L 22:69
If Jesus is God then He should sit on His throne and not on the right hand of God.

"And He (JESUS) went a little beyound them, and FELL ON HIS FACE AND PRAYED (if Jesus is God then He should not fell on His face and pray to God!!!), Saying (Jesus saying), "My Father (MY GOD), if it is possible, let this cup pass from me; (Jesus asking God) YET NOT AS I WILL, BUT AS YOU WILL. M 26:39 (no one say this and be a God at the same time.)
- Some Christians may laugh or joke about the Muslim way, when they kneel down in their prayers, FORGETTING that Jesus pray in this way too, and so the other prophets before Him.
The Angels of God carry the God's messages to his chosen people (prophets & the chosen ones), they ascend and descend from heaven by the will of God only, and the Bible gave us many examples:
"And the angel of the LORD found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur." Ge 16:7
And in the Quran:
"The angels and the spirit will ascend to HIM during a day the extent of which is fifty thousand years." Q- 70:4
The ascending and descending of Jesus are the same as the Angels and the spirit, as it came in the Bible and in the Gospels or in the Quran, They all came and gone as the will of God and not by their own will.

God bless you

Name: roy • Date: 04/16/07 20:33

A: Szia CC, szeretőm
You said earlier the missionaries Jehovah Wittness answer all of your questions from their book. Can you ask them please. What was the situation of former prophets? Were they step-son to God, as you claim real son is only one? How were the sinning versus atonement problems being solved before 0 B.C.?
Why God need to get a son to himself while He empowered himself to create all human being, plantations, animals, stars, time, emotional world, soul, spririt shortly anything we may not even imagine? Is that different than trinity if God has a son ( little god) ? I thing worse than trinity leads to endless plurality. What if the little god has actually got other children- many decended grandson gods living among us?
If you believe no other prophets but only Jesus (son , God forbid never!) how do you comment on Adam, who was sent to earth fatherless? Do you not also believe in Adam sent to earth by God? I see you believe in Jesus was created before Adam.

CC wrote:
Jesus as "the firstborn of all creation, "the beginning of the creation by God". (Col 1:15; Rev 1:1; 3:14) Thus the scriptures identify the Word (Jesus in his prehuman existence) as God's first creation, his firstborn Son. Logically, it was to his firstborn Son that Jehovah said: "Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness." (Gen 1:26)

Roy wrote:
All creation formula has been pegged to Jesus. No one else was God's beloved slave but Jesus? You find logic in that? (Logically, it was to his firstborn Son) It reminds me the same story told by radical muslims, who claim Mohammad (sas) was the most beloved human of all of the world history. All universe was created by God for the sake and love of Mohammad. All prophets woud have been praying obeying to privilaged Mohammed in resurrection day. ( do you hear the similarities with Jesus ?) Many muslim professors deny these false fairy tales. They dont find any firm proof to say these privilaged position of Mohammad is true. The danger was to love the created slave of God too much. The result is putting him/her to the position of equality to God. Not only Jesus was worshiped beside God today but also wealth, political power, beloved spouse or parent, even car, football team or job has been replaced by God in many modern living people heart.

19:88-95 They say: (God) Most Gracious has begotten a son! Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous! At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth To split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin, That they should invoke a son for (God) Most Gracious. For it is not consonant with the majesty of (God) Most Gracious that he should beget a son. Not one of the beings in the heavens and the earth but must come to (God) Most Gracious as a servant. He does take an account of them (all), and hath numbered them (all) exactly. And everyone of them Will come to him singly on the day of Judgment.

Some art sites from hungarians are more refreshing than these conversation. I am drowned in the imaginary theories of creation of CC.
Please take away – hyphens.
http://www.wga.hu/index1.html
Hungarian Painter of tomb of Jesus
http://dsc.discovery.com/conve-rgence/tomb/land/land.html

No- hard feelings please. Te vagy a szerelmem

Name: betty47 • Date: 04/17/07 0:57

A: Let me put my spin on it. Let's say Jesus does come again. He was Jewish. He never intended to start Christianity and neither did James or his other family members who were all good Jews. Early Christians converted to Judaism first before they could follow Jesus. St. Paul changed all that, and he didn't even know Jesus. Perhaps Jesu would come back and say that everyone who started Christianity was wrong. Jews have been told for centuries that if they don't believe in Jesus they would go to hell. I'm a Catholic, but perhaps we've been wrong. Who knows what Jesus would say? Would he say we were wrong to start the Trinity and that we believe in idols which he hated? Maybe it would be modern Christians who would be sent to hell and Jews would live with Jesus in bliss in heaven? Surely Jesus would not send his own people to hell. But if he comes back and thinks Christianity is paganism and filled with idol believers, maybe he'd be furious at Christians and the Vatican. Just a thought.

Name: CanuckChick • Date: 04/17/07 3:23

A: Hi Sam! I believe that Jehovah's Witnesses have got it right. They are the only ones I know of who are able to back up their teachings with bible scripture.

Re Bishops: Most have an axe to grind, and some are even (gasp!) politically motivated. I don't trust them, as a group, to be responsible spiritual guides.

Re the trinity teaching: I think you're preaching to the choir here. I do not believe the bible supports this teaching. Jesus is NOT God. God is the supreme being, Jesus is God's first creation and subordinate to his father, Jehovah (God). The holy spirit is not a personage, but God's active force.

By the way, I am not one of those who laugh at or mock the Muslim way.
I have great respect for people who attempt to live their lives according to their beliefs.

Isn't this message board great? I haven't had this much fun since the pigs ate my brother!

CC

Name: Shlomo • Date: 04/17/07 3:29

A: Here is a question;

What insults HaShem [ G_D] the most? Do not jump for the answer, think clearly and logically with reason before answering. This is a very important question beneath the surface of the question itself.

Hint: it is in the old testament [Torah].

Name: CanuckChick • Date: 04/17/07 3:44

A: Betty - Your post reminds me of a joke I once heard.....

A Jewish rabbi dies and goes to heaven. Meets St. Peter at the pearly gates. St. Pete gives him the guided tour.

They go down a long hallway with many doors on either side. He opens the first door marked "Protestants". They poke their heads in and say hi to everyone. Second door is marked "Muslims". Again they greet those inside. Third door marked "Quakers". They say hi.

Next door is farther down. St. Pete tells rabbi they must take their shoes off and quietly tiptoe past. Rabbi asks why. St. Pete says: that's the Catholic's door, and they like to think they're the only ones up here.

Name: CanuckChick • Date: 04/17/07 3:46

A: Roy, my precious: I'm not ignoring you, but your post warrants more research than I can manage right now.

Goodnight, sweet prince.

Name: CanuckChick • Date: 04/17/07 3:49

A: Shlomo: I'll bite. What's the answer. Then we can argue about it.

Name: Shlomo • Date: 04/17/07 6:25

A: Canuckchick,

Search and obtain the answer, this is not a question of debate. It is a question given to obtain certain truths that are absolute, contrary to those who believe there are no absolute or static truths.

Name: roy • Date: 04/17/07 10:32

A: betty47,
It is exactly what you wrote down. Jesus will be furious with vatican and whomever produced lies about him. A catolic may be unbiased and admirable, thanks for comment.
Shlomo wrote,
What insults HaShem [ G_D] the most?

Roy wrote:
I bet it is idolatry. He got offended by being worshiped of Him besides other deity.

CanuckChick,
Your posts has great value and fun. I dont expect you find answers for my opening arguments. You can not. I dont want you indulge into your book and come with satisfactory results. It may become nightmare for you.
So leave it to time, your common sense may prevail one day.
na ezt jól megcsináltad!

Name: sam • Date: 04/18/07 0:49

A: Hi CanuckChick,

You stated: "I believe that Jehovah's Witnesses have got it right. They are the only ones I know of who are able to back up their teachings with bible scripture. "
--------------------------------
Since I do not know much about the teaching of the Jehovah's Witnesses, I would like if you clear these few points:
1- Are they a sect from the Christian or the Jews?.
2- Do they believe in the Bible and in the four Gospels?.
3- Do they accept the name "Allah" as a God?.
4- "Jehovah's Witnesses have got it right"!!!.
A- Are they the only one right and all the others are wrong, can you prove it ?, because "got it right" does not prove a thing.
B- Do you think that the "ISLAM" religion and teaching are wrong?.
C- Did you ever think, and just for curiosity to read the Quran?, and if not, can you tell me what are afraid of?. (at the end of this post I am bringing few verses as an example)*.
D- In John 16:7-15, Jesus mentioned this, "But I tell you THE TRUTH, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, THE HELPER will not come to you; but if I go, I WILL SEND HIM TO YOU,...." , and the question, where is the Helper ?, did He come or not yet, according to your belief?.

The five pillar of Islam: "(1) TO BELIEVE IN GOD (ONE GOD), (2) TO BELIEVE IN HIS ANGELS, (3) AND IN ALL HIS MESSAGES, (4) AND IN ALL HIS MESSENGERS (ALL THE PROPHETS), (5) AND IN THE JUDGMENT DAY.

* Verses from the Quran:
Q-29:20 (O MUHAMMAD), say to them“go travel through the earth and observe HOW THE CREATION BEGAN.
Q- 41:53 We will show them our signs in the horizons and within themselves until it becomes clear to them that it is the truth. (He is the truth). But is it not sufficient concerning your LORD that he is, over all things, a witness.
Q-22:73 O people, an example is presented so listen to it. Indeed, those you invoke beside GOD will never create (as much as) a fly, even if they gathered together for it (i.e., that purpose). And if the fly should steal from them a tiny things, they could not recover it from him. WEAK ARE THE PURSUER AND PURSUED.
Q-21:30 Have those who disbelieved not considered that THE HEAVEN AND EARTH WERE A JOINED ENTITY, AND WE SEPARATED THEM, and made from water every living things, then will they not believe?.
The "BIG BANG THEORY".

Q-51:47 And THE HEAVEN we constructed with strength, and indeed, WE ARE (ITS) EXPANDER.

-Is that the EXPANDING UNIVERSE theory?
Q-21:33 And it is HE who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all heavenly bodies, in an orbit are swimming.

-Every object in the universe is moving, the moon orbiting the earth, and both orbiting the sun, and all of them orbiting our galaxy, and our galaxy orbiting what?, GOD knows.

Q-13:41 Have they not seen that we set upon THE EARTH REDUCING IT FROM IT IS BORDER?.

-The earth diameter on the equator is 12756 km. And its diameter in the poles is less by few hundreds of kilometer.

Q-27:88 And you see THE MOUNTAINS, thinking them RIGID (STATIONARY), while they are passing as passing of clouds.

-The earth rotation around its axis is 1666 km/hr, but we do not feel it, and the mountains seems to be standing still, and only in the late centuries the scientist discover those facts about the moving earth.

God bless you.

Name: CanuckChick • Date: 04/18/07 13:10

A: Hi Sam!

Re Jehovah's Witnesses: The modern-day history of Jehovah's Witnesses began with the forming of a group for bible study in Allegheny, Pennsylvania in the early 1870's. At first they were known only as Bible Students, but in 1931 they adopted the Scriptural name Jehovah's Witnesses. Their beliefs and practices are not new but are a restoration of first-century Christianity.

Beliefs:
1) Bible: Jehovah's Witnesses believe that the entire bible is the inspired Word of God, and instead of adhering to a creed based on human tradition, they hold to the bible as the standard for all their beliefs.

2) God: They worship Jehovah as the only true God and freely speak to others about him and his loving purposes toward mankind.

3) Jesus Christ: They believe, not that Jesus Christ is part of a trinity, but that, as the bible says, he is the Son of God, the first of God's creations; that he had a prehuman existence and that his life was transferred from heaven to the womb of a vigin, Mary; that his perfect human life laid down in sacrifice makes possible salvation to eternal life for those who exercise faith; that Christ is actively ruling as King, with God-given authority over all the earth since 1914.

4) God's Kingdom: They believe that God's Kingdom is the only hope for mankind; that it is a real government; that it will soon destroy the present wicked system of things, including all human governments, and that it will produce a new system in which righteousness will prevail.

5) Heavenly life: They believe that 144,000 spirit-anointed Christians will share with Christ in his heavenly Kingdom, ruling as kings with him. They do not believe that heaven is the reward for everyone who is "good".

6) The earth: They believe that God's original purpose for the earth will be fulfilled; that the earth will be completely populated by worshipers of Jehovah and that these will be able to enjoy eternal life in human perfection; that even the dead will be raised to an opportunity to share in these blessings.

7) Death: They believe that the dead are conscious of absolutely nothing; that they are experiencing neither pain nor pleasure in some spirit realm; that they do not exist except in God' memory, so hope for their future life lies in a resurrection from the dead.

8) Last days: They believe that we are living now, since 1914, in the last days of this wicked system of things; that some who saw the events of 1914 will also see the complete destruction of the present wicked world; that lovers of righteousness will survive into a cleansed earth.

9) Separate from the world: They earnestly endeavor to be no part of the world, as Jesus said would be true of his followers. They show genuine Christian love for their neighbours, but they do not share in the politics or the wars of any nation. They provide for the material needs of their families but shun the world's avid pursuit of material things and personal fame and its excessive indulgence in pleasure.

10) Apply bible counsel: They believe that it is important to apply the counsel of God's Word in everyday life now. Regardless of a person's past way of life, he may become one of Jehovah's Witnesses if he abandons practices condemned by God's Word and apply its godly counsel. But if anyone thereafter makes a practice of adultery, fornication, homosexuality, drug abuse, drunkenness, lying, or stealing, he will be expelled from the organization.

I believe that any organization purporting to have God's blessing should display the fruits of God's spirit.

"Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to you in sheep's covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves.

By their fruits you will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? Likewise, every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit; a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit.

Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire. Really, then, by their fruits you will recognize those men.

Not everyone saying to me, ""Lord, Lord"", will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will.

Many will say to me in that day, ""Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?""

And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew you. Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness." (Matthew 7:15-23)

Name: roy • Date: 04/20/07 21:32

A: CC, schatzi
You make your efforts in vain to prove us your faith is only valid one and the rest is non acceptable by God~Jehovah. I think we muslims has a small chance according to Jehova's Wittness as we also believe Jesus pbuh is sent by God. What about protestants, catholics, jews, budists?

What illogical is; Jesus atonement for human sins was necessary to reach to eternal life for mankind and erode Adam's fault, ultimately paving way to everlasting life. Why unlucky Jesus should take the burden of falsehood of Adam and all mankind? Why not the sinful Adam and mankind suffer for their own debauchery?

Muslims on the contrary believe that Adam was as valuable as Jesus. Adam has erred, seduced by evil who offered forbidden tree to reach everlasting life. He was excused. It seems to show asimetry in beliefs.

The blood transfusions has hit me worst. You refuse blood during surgery or giving birth? Mortality in women; the death rate in this group was 1 per 1,000 maternities compared with an expected incidence of less than 1 per 100,000 maternities. I dont mention unprotected and naive children and patient cases. Come on to your senses please; if something is against wisdom, conscience, logic, continuation of human life, then simply cease to follow it. Any religion against common sense, science may not sustain for a long time, no matter what it promises.

CC, how did you gave up celebrating your birthdays, and christmas? What is unethical about them?

It is open to much criticism when you put hierarchy to religion; Jesus is king, Elders and Ministerial servants, you are cutting the direct relationship of human to God. Who are the secretary of State, foreign affairs?

1870s, Russell organized a Bible study group, such a coincidence Jesus has come and lived among us since 1873, sorry a delay in departure! 1874 , sorry unforeseen technical unease! a further delay due to gathering of saints in heaven 1878, and finaly his plane landed on 1914? The start of most blodiest era of all human history, just start of first world war 1914-18.Ottomans lost everything during that including 10 million human. Where was his reign during 1939-45 ? 52 million died and 3 times more wounded. Till 2914 he will be around ? May God protect us from Jesus! A perfect heaven like earth life for humans continues now!, in Iraq alone close to 1 million people was dead in 4 years. How can you believe in such absurdity. When I write even I get suffocated from mindless thesis.

Armageddon is imminent? I only remember a beautiful actris from that movie with same name. Why ever blody war is imminent, any clue or reason? Who are the wicked that will be destroyed? Can you tell by description? Are you suspicious with your neighbours that they may be possible wicked instead of living them? Come again to your senses.

Name for God, translated as Jehovah in English, as vital for acceptable worship? We use more than 100 names for God in worship and prayers, we are not heard at all? God is not answering when you call Him beautiful names of any language?

And you also believe same as catholics; all other religions are false and not acceptable by God.

It is also taught that 144,000 people will receive immortal life in heaven like-earth with Jesus Christ as co-rulers guiding the rest of humankind? What can I do to be one of them? Why it is 144 not 154,000? How can you differ them from others? I am exasperated.

Do you serve at for field service too? I mean door to door. How can you stand the questions like mine? Or prefer to feel guilty?

You believe that God's original purpose for the earth will be fulfilled; that the earth will be completely populated by worshipers of Jehovah and that these will be able to enjoy eternal life in human perfection? Some sect of muslims stole and share exactly same ideas with you. They expect the saviour Jesus from heavens. Although in Quran says Mohammad was the last prophet. These are muslims too, or rather Jehova's muslims. This part strike me most ; "even the dead will be raised to an opportunity to share in these blessings." Will you raise from grave too? Is this Jesus or God? Is it Jesus arrival or doomsday? Russel totaly messed up everything.

Coincidentally the last verses are used as argument that Bible gave clues for Prophet Mohammad (sas).

A nice canuckchick Nelly Furtado - Baby Girl may heal my wounds that you caused in my soul tonight, she is like a free bird too.

Name: CanuckChick • Date: 04/21/07 13:36

A: Roy, my Schatz:

I can only speak from the things I have learned from the bible, as to which people are acceptable to God. I believe that any religion blessed by God would have to follow God's laws, and this would be reflected in the lifestyle of the ones adhering to that religion.

In other words, what is the end result of people following a certain religion? Unfortunately, most of the religions I know of have a dismal record of following God's laws.

One example: Most religions preach love and peace, but when it comes to the crunch, they support war, and in the name of nationalism will gladly march off to kill their fellow man. Jehovah's Witnesses do not take part in war, and continue to be humiliated and imprisoned because of their stand.

"Unlucky Jesus"? He was not forced to come to the earth to atone for Adam's sin. He volunteered, because he loved mankind. Adam and his descendants were clearly meant to live forever on the earth. The only condition was that they accept God's authority to decide what is right and wrong. Adam was tempted into an act of rebellion against God when he ate from the one tree that God had told him to leave alone. He warned him of the consequences: "And Jehovah God also laid this command upon the man: ""From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, FOR IN THE DAY YOU EAT FROM IT YOU WILL POSITIVELY DIE." (Gen 2:16, 17)

When Adam chose to decide for himself what is right and wrong, he was no longer a perfect human, and so could not pass on this perfection to his children. We all know that thousands of years of misery have ensued. Don't we still have this attitude today? We want to decide for ourselves what is right and wrong, without regard for God's laws.

God created the universe. He instituted laws to ensure it's continued existence. Example: gravity on earth. Another law: sin=death. Since the universe is perfectly designed, he chooses to follow the laws he put into place. He couldn't say to Adam, Ok I didn't really mean it when I said you'd die if you sinned. The only way around it was to provide another "Adam" (a perfect human), who would prove that it was possible for humans to live on earth and remain faithful to God. Enter Jesus, who did just that.

Re blood: The bible tells us clearly in the Old AND New Testaments that the blood in our bodies does not belong to us, but rather to God.
Gen 9:3,4 - Every moving animal that is alive may serve as food for you. As in the case of green vegetation, I do give it all to you. Only flesh with its soul - its blood - you must not eat." (to Noah)
Lev 17:10 - "As for any man of the house of Israel or some alien resident who is residing as an alien in your midst who eats any sort of blood, I shall certainly set my face against the soul that is eating the blood, and I shall indeed cut him off from among his people." (to the Israelites)
Acts 15:28,29 - "The holy spirit and we ourselves have favoured adding no further burden to you, except these necessary things, to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication. If you carefully keep yourselves from these things, you will prosper. Good health to you!" (to the early Christian congregation)

God does not withhold good things from us. Statistics (as we're certainly aware of on this website) can be manipulated. Is it possible that we have been brainwashed by the medical community to believe that blood transfusions are good for us? They make a tidy little profit on this procedure.

There are alternative treatments. Often simple saline solution, Ringer's solution, and dextran can be used as plasme volume expanders, and these are available in nearly all modern hospitals. The risks that go with use of blood transfusions are avoided by using these substances. These risks are heavily downplayed by the medical community - bacterial or viral infection (AIDS being one), transfusion reactions and Rh sensitization.

All types of surgery can be performed successfully without blood transfusions, including open-heart operations, brain surgery, amputation of limbs, and total removal of cancerous organs.

There are people who risk their lives for their country, and they are viewed as heroes, aren't they? But there is someone who is greater than any person or thing here on earth, and that is God. Would you risk your life because of love for him and loyalty to his rulership? The issue here really is loyalty to God. The same issued faced by Adam.

Re birthdays: The date of your birth has traditionally been used to cast your horoscope, or foretell your future.
Deut 18:10-12: "There should not be found in you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, anyone who employs divination, a practicer of magic or anyone who looks for omens or a sorcerer, or one who binds others with a spell or anyone who consults a spirit medium or a professional foreteller of events or anyone who inquires of the dead. For everybody doing these things is something detestable to Jehovah, and on account of these detestable things Jehovah your God is driving them away from before you."

For this reason, the early Christians did not celebrate the day of their birth.

Re Christmas: Look into the history of this celebration and you'll find that its roots are of pagan origin. Most bible scholars will also tell you that the date does not reflect the time of Jesus' birth, since he was born some time in October.

Re elders and ministerial servants: They do not act as "priests" in the congregation, or an intermediary between the people and God. This arrangement is modelled on the early Christian congregation. They are learned in the teachings of the bible and do not claim to profess an understanding of God that is not readily available to anyone.

Roy, most people, including myself don't like reading overly-long posts, so I'll try to answer the rest of your questions another time.

Time to go out in the sunshine, play with my dog, and do a little gardening.

As we say here in Canada - "Keep your stick on the ice!".

Your friend,
CC

Name: Shlomo • Date: 04/22/07 2:42

A: Original sin is not the truth...........no child is born in sin, that is pure nonsense. Chava sinned by allowing her ego [ left side ] convince her that since she was made also in the tzelem [image] she has a right to to eat from the tree, in fact all the trees. She then convinced Adam's ego of her flawed logic and reasoning, resulting in Adam being convinced and they both suffered the consequences. A human scrafice is an absolute abhorence to G-d, no man can assume someone elses sins, all are responsible for their own.

Name: roy • Date: 04/22/07 11:09

A: CC, kedvesem!

I am not here to convince you or anybody that your belief is not truth. I strive for the truth and as you might have noticed I criticise heavily to muslims falsehood and bigotry more strongly than others. They cover up the most correct path of God's message, and encumber to İslam. Their fault is bigger than others as they cant be examples of true faith, being away from attarctive to all nations.

Well, lets start with your post.
CC wrote:
Most religions preach love and peace, but when it comes to the crunch, they support war, and in the name of nationalism will gladly march off to kill their fellow man.

Roy Wrote:
It is in the essence of the mankind to fight and kill. Unfortunately this is part of test that we were given as resposibility from heaven before creation. Angels had objections to God that : " Will you place therein such as will cause disorder in it or shed blood ?"

"And He taught Adam the names of all things; then presenting them to the angels, He said: Tell Me the names of these if you are right." (2: 31)

The angels did not know their names and said:

"Glory be to You. We have no knowledge except what You have taught us. Surely, You are Knowing, the Wise." (2: 32)

After that Allah questioned Adam in the presence of all angels about the names of different objects. He gave correct answers on the basis of this superiority. Allah asked all the angels to bow as a mark of respect to Adam who was created so miraculously. The Holy Qur'an affirms:
" angels! Fall down making obeisance to Adam" (15:29)

This is what we believe about mankind superiority over angels. Dont wory too much about the wars, my opinion is; they are part of instruments God uses to terminate some people from earth although they are His supporters and lovers it doesnt make change for Him. It is all in His governence to lenghten earthly life or shorthen it. Most important for Him through wars is; tests people to qualify the ones who are loyal and faithful to Him from others. He wants no wars, and says not kill or shed blood, it is another test of obedience.

About "Unlucky Jesus"; I dont believe in atonement of any creature and I agree with Sholomo saying;
"Original sin is not the truth...........no child is born in sin, that is pure nonsense."

You may further research at ;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_and_Eve

My opinion lays under " islamic tradition" of that page.

Your assumption below is wrong:
"The only way around it was to provide another "Adam" (a perfect human), who would prove that it was possible for humans to live on earth and remain faithful to God. Enter Jesus, who did just that."

The only resemblance of Adam, Jesus was the type of creation~ from no father.
Adam was sin prone as well as Jesus and Mohammad (sas). No one has been created perfect untill now. Not even angels, evil was an angel. Only God is perfect.
I dont expect and believe any peaceful era will come under anybodys rule on earth. There will be always nonbelievers to get the correct conditions of the test. The unjust against the previously living people would have been immense, if otherwise. We believe most of the paradise earners will be from earlier nations not from the latter.

Re blood: we have some of the asthonishingly similar verses from Quran about the blood. I think that parts of bible has not been manupulated as they are kept original and can be verified by Quran.

Regarding statistics and alternative medical treatments you are most likely biased. I dont think any doctor or scientist would have deliberately conceal the truth from people in order to prove Jehova's Witness sect redundant or make more money rather than save lives.

I can undertand the feeling of risk your life for God, but God wants it for more correct reasons, if the life of human is endangered He wants us to survive at any cost. The unlucky patients and pregnants are to die as martyr to their belief. May God accept them, I am respectful. However I dont beleive it is wish of God.

Our prophet Mohammad has been donoring blood from time to time.

BIBLE:
Gen 9:3,4 - Every moving animal that is alive may serve as food for you. As in the case of green vegetation, I do give it all to you. Only flesh with its soul - its blood - you must not eat." (to Noah)
Lev 17:10 - "As for any man of the house of Israel or some alien resident who is residing as an alien in your midst who eats any sort of blood, I shall certainly set my face against the soul that is eating the blood, and I shall indeed cut him off from among his people." (to the Israelites)
Acts 15:28,29 - "The holy spirit and we ourselves have favoured adding no further burden to you, except these necessary things, to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication. If you carefully keep yourselves from these things, you will prosper. Good health to you!" (to the early Christian congregation)

QURAN:
005:003
Forbidden to you is that which dies of itself, and BLOOD, and flesh of swine, and that on which any other name than that of Allah has been invoked, and the strangled animal and that beaten to death, and that killed by a fall and that killed by being smitten with the horn, and that which wild beasts have eaten, except what you slaughter, and what is sacrificed on stones set up for idols and that you divide by the arrows; that is a transgression. This day have those who disbelieve despaired of your religion, so fear them not, and fear Me. This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion; but whoever is compelled by hunger, not inclining willfully to sin, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

2:173
HE has made unlawful to you only that which dies of itself, and BLOOD and the flesh of swine, and that on which the name of any other than ALLAH has been invoked. But he who is driven by necessity, being neither disobedient nor exceeding the limit, it shall be no sin for him. Surely, ALLAH is most Forgiving, Merciful.

6:145
Say: I do not find in that which has been revealed to me anything forbidden for an eater to eat of except that it be what has died of itself, or BLOOD poured forth, or flesh of swine -- for that surely is unclean -- or that which is a transgression, other than (the name of) Allah having been invoked on it; but whoever is driven to necessity, not desiring nor exceeding the limit, then surely your Lord is Forgiving, Merciful.

16:115
He has only forbidden you what dies of itself and BLOOD and flesh of swine and that over which any other name than that of Allah has been invoked, but whoever is driven to necessity, not desiring nor exceeding the limit, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

CC Wrote:
Re birthdays & Christmas: "The date of your birth has traditionally been used to cast your horoscope, or foretell your future."

You are right again on this matter. I agree with you and point out same mistake committed by many less-religious people all around the world. The stars which were believed made up the horoscopes do not stay where they were before.

Muslims does not care that much for their birthday, however they are not against celebrating it. They dont combine the celebration with horoscopes and fortune telling most of the time. On the other hand daily newspapers and magazines have fortune telling pages. But you are correct at this matter.
Our muslim brothers are trying to set up a Mohammad week of birthday nowadays.

watch out the verses below:
5:3
Forbidden to you is the flesh of an animal ……and that which has been slaughtered at an altar as an offering to idols. And forbidden is also this that you seek to know your lot by the divining arrows. That is an act of disobedience. ….

5:90
O you who believe, intoxicants, and gambling, and the altars of idols, and the games of chance are abominations of the devil; you shall avoid them, that you may succeed.

I am glad what I learn for status of elders and ministerial servants, it is same understanding for us too.

The above written was szerény véleményem szerint.

tiszteletem barátnőm

Name: CanuckChick • Date: 04/23/07 14:54

A: Hi Roy, my little freebird! continued....

After discussing the destruction due to come upon the city of Jerusalem, Jesus made the statement: "And Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations (times of the Gentiles) are fulfilled". (Lu 21:24)

Prophecies in 2 Kings and Daniel 4 point to the passing of 2,520 years from the time of Jerusalem's destruction by Nebuchadnezzar in 607 BCE.
This takes us to 1914 (do the math - remember there is no year 0)

At the end of the "appointed time of the nations", Jesus would begin his kingdom rule in heaven.

In 1914, at the beginning of Jesus' kingdom rule, he cleansed the heavens as depicted in Rev 12:7-10: "And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angel battled but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven. So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. And I heard a loud voice in heaven say: ""Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God!"""

We see the consequences of this heavenly war, here on earth: "On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time."

Many people will agree that conditions on the earth have noticeably detiorated since 1914, the start of the first world war.

Might this be due to Satan's banishment to the earth?

Re Armageddon and the destruction of the wicked: I do not presume to know which individuals will be destroyed. I know that, unlike humans, God is able to read the heart, and that his judgements will be fair.

Re Jesus' co-rulers: Revelation 14:1 gives us their number - "And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads."

Rev 14:4c goes on to identify them: "These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb,"

Rev 7:9, 10 tells us that there will be other survivors: "After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of ALL NATIONS AND TRIBES AND PEOPLES AND TONGUES; (caps are mine) standing before the Lamb, dressed in white robes, and there were palm branches in their hands. And they keep on crying with a loud voice, saying: ""Salvation (we owe) to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb."""

Rev 7:13, 14 goes on to identify this "great crowd": "And in response one of the elders said to me: ""These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?"" So right away I said to him: ""My lord, you are the one that knows."" And he said to me: ""These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.""

2 Corinthians 1: 21-22 tells us that God selects those individuals who belong to the 144,000 annointed ones: "But he who guarantees that you and we belong to Christ and he who has anointed us is God. He has also put his seal upon us and has given us the token of what is to come, that is, the spirit, in our hearts."

Doesn't look like a club that most of us can (or want to) join. Given the choice, I would want to remain on this beautiful earth, to live according to God's original purpose - a paradise.

I believe that on the last day Jesus will resurrect those asleep in death. "Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment." (John 5:28,29) We have this hope because of Jesus' sacrifice for mankind.

Without this hope, this would be our fate: "For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten. Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun."

God tells us at Ezekiel 18:4: "Look! All the souls - to me they belong. As the soul of the father so likewise the soul of the son - to me they belong. The soul that is sinning - it itself will die."

I hope that the "wounds" I caused you are not of a serious nature, and that Nelly was able to heal them.

Back outside now into the beautiful sunshine...more gardening...although I also have many wounds from this. I've got blisters on my blisters, man. This morning I felt like I'd been eaten by a wolf and shat off the edge of a cliff.

Peace,
CC

Name: sam • Date: 04/23/07 17:25

A: CanuchChick, my friend,

Here what you stated in your answer to Roy:
"Roy, my Schatz:

"I can only speak from the things (A)- I have learned from the bible, as to which people are acceptable to God. (B)- I believe that any religion blessed by God would have to follow God's laws, (C)- and this would be reflected in the lifestyle of the ones adhering to that religion.

(D)- In other words, what is the end result of people following a certain religion? Unfortunately, most of the religions I know of have a dismal record of following God's laws."
-----------------------------------------------
A-- I have learned!!!
Sam's answering you: And I have learned , from the Bible and the real world which we live in these facts:
1- The former catholic Nun (Mary Ann Collins) she wrote in her book: "Unmasking Catholicism" (that is the History of the churches):"Forbidden people to interpret the bible for themselves (you blindly accept what you been fed)." She also wrote:

"there is a solemn, written ritual that enables the Pope to put ecclesiastical curses (anathemas) on people. The article in The Catholic Encyclopedia describes the ritual in detail, including extensive quotations from it. (You can read this article online.)1

In pronouncing the anathema, the Pope wears special vestments. He is assisted by twelve priests who hold lighted candles. Calling on the name of God, the Pope pronounces a solemn, ecclesiastical curse. He ends by pronouncing sentence and declaring that the anathematized person is condemned to Hell with Satan. The priests reply: "Fiat!" (Let it be done!) and throw down their candles.

As we will see, the Catholic Church considers heresy (disagreement with Catholic doctrine) to be a crime. The Council of Trent declared that any person who disagrees with even one of its doctrinal statements is thereby automatically anathematized."

What we now call popes were originally bishops of Rome (one bishop among brother bishops from other cities). Then they became popes, with power over the entire Church. Then they became so powerful that they were able to depose kings and emperors. They became so powerful that they were able to force kings use their secular might to enforce the Inquisition, which was conducted by Catholic priests and monks. In 1870, the Pope was declared to be infallible. The process of increasing papal power was influenced by forged documents which changed people's perception of the history of the papacy and of the Church.

I'm just going to briefly summarize some information about these forgeries. At the end of this paper is a link to an on-line article which gives detailed historical information."

"In addition to documents which were total forgeries, genuine documents were altered. One hundred twenty-five genuine documents had forged material added to them, which increased the power of the Pope. Many early documents were changed to say the opposite of what they had originally said. "

"Every church has had its share of tares and wolves."!!!!!!!!! WOW.

"I apologize for putting you through this, but I can’t adequately make my point without giving you this information. If you don’t want to read about these things, then skip to the heading “Imperial Popes.”

Pope Honorius reigned from 625 to 638 A.D. He was condemned as a heretic by the Sixth Ecumenical Council (680-681). He was also condemned as a heretic by Pope Leo II, as well as by every other pope until the eleventh century.

In 769, Pope Stephen IV came to power with the help of an army that conquered the previous Pope. Stephen gave orders for his papal rival to be flogged, have his eyes cut out, have his kneecaps broken, and be imprisoned until he died. Then Pope Stephen sentenced a second man to die a slow, agonizing death, by having pieces of his body cut off every day until he finally died.

Pope Leo V only reigned for one month (July 903). Cardinal Christopher put Leo in prison and became Pope. Then Christopher was put in prison by Cardinal Sergius. Sergius killed Leo and Christopher while they were in prison. He also killed every cardinal who had opposed him.

Pope John XII reigned from 955 to 963. He was a violent man. He was so lustful that people of his day said that he turned the Lateran Palace into a house of prostitution. He drank toasts to the devil. When gambling, he invoked pagan gods and goddesses. He was killed by a jealous husband while in the act of committing adultery with the man’s wife.

In the tenth century, a wealthy Italian noblewoman named Marozia put nine popes into office in eight years. In order to do that, she also had to get rid of reigning popes. Two of them were strangled, one was suffocated, and four disappeared under mysterious circumstances. One of the popes was Marozia’s son; he was fathered by a Pope.

In 1003, Pope Silvester II was murdered by his successor, Pope John XVII. Seven months later, John was poisoned.

Pope Benedict VIII reigned from 1012 to 1024. He bought the papacy with bribery. He kept a private force of “pope’s men” who were known for torture, maiming, and murder. When Benedict VIII died, his brother seized power and became Pope John XIX. He had himself ordained a priest, consecrated as a bishop, and crowned as pope, all in the same day. John died under suspicious circumstances.

In 1095, Pope Urban II called for a Crusade to take Jerusalem (the “holy land”) back from the Muslims. This was a “holy war.” The Pope said that Crusaders would have full remission of their sins!!! (can you understand what that means in religion?) , and if they died in battle they would be martyrs. As the Crusaders went through Europe on their way to Jerusalem, they slaughtered European Jews. When they reached Jerusalem, they were brutal in their conquest of the city. Many Muslims were beheaded, but some were tortured and then burned to death (the are Barbarians) . This began a conflict between Islam and the West that is still going on today ( and that is the TRUTH). Later popes called for other Crusades. At first they targetted Muslims, but the Fourth Crusade (in 1198) was against Orthodox Christians in Constantinople.

Pope Benedict IX reigned from 1032 to 1044, in 1045, and from 1047 to 1048. He became Pope through bribery. He squandered the wealth of the Papacy on prostitutes and lavish banquets, and he had people murdered. The citizens of Rome hated Benedict so much that, on two occasions, he had to flee from Rome. Benedict sold the papacy to Pope Gregory VI. As part of the deal, he continued to live in the Lateran Palace, with a generous income. Benedict filled the Lateran Palace with prostitutes.

In 1298, Pope Boniface VIII ordered that every man, woman, child, and animal in the Italian town of Palestrina be slaughtered. He was known for torture, massacre, and ferocity.

Pope Clement VI reigned from 1342 to 1352. He ordered the slaughter of an entire Italian town. He lived a life of luxury and extravagance. He openly admitted that he sold church offices and he used threats and bribery to gain power. Clement purchased a French palace, which became famous for its prostitutes.

Pope Alexander VI (the Borgia Pope) reigned from 1492 to 1503. He was known for murder, bribery, and selling positions of authority in the Catholic Church. He enjoyed luxurious living. The art book “Treasures of the Vatican” shows a portrait of him wearing gold vestments that are covered with jewels. They look like pearls, emeralds, large rubies, and other jewels. His tiara (the papal crown) is gold, with three rows of large jewels on it. Alexander had four children by mistresses. His son Cesare was known for the kinds of murderous intrigues that make good opera plots. According to “The Oxford Dictionary of Popes,” Cesare and Alexander killed people and seized their property. Pope Alexander was so hated that when he died, the priests who came to say prayers for him were driven away by the palace guards, and his body was left unattended.

Pope Julius II reigned from 1503 to 1513. He became Pope through bribery. He was ruthless and violent. He had a reputation for lust, drunkenness, rages, deception, and nepotism.

Pope Leo X reigned from 1513 to 1521. He mixed paganism with Christianity. He had performances of Christ’s crucifixion and ancient mythology. He filled Rome with splendid Church processions and statues of Greek gods and goddesses. He put a statue of himself in Rome’s Capitol, to be saluted by the public.

Pope Gregory VII reigned from 1073 to 1085. He required kings and emperors to kiss his foot. Gregory and his successors used forged documents in order to expand the power of the papacy. Some Roman Catholics tried to expose these forgeries, but they were excommunicated for it. However, the Orthodox Church kept records and wrote detailed information about the forgeries. (For more information about this, see the chapter, “Forged Documents and Papal Power.”)

Simony was rampant among clerics. It was commonplace for priests to pay money in order to become bishops and abbots. Pope Gregory VII said that he knew of more than 40 men who became Pope by means of bribery.

Pope Innocent III reigned from 1198 to 1216. He said that the Pope is the ruler of the world and the father of princes and kings. He claimed that every priest and bishop must obey the Pope, even if the Pope commands something evil.

Pope Innocent wanted to get rid of the Albigensian “heretics” who lived in France. He forced the King of France to kill hundreds of thousands of French citizens. Albigensians and Catholics lived together in the same area in France. Pope Innocent commanded that every person in the region, including the Catholics, be killed. This was called the Albigensian Crusade, or the Albigensian Massacre. The Pope gave the Albigensian Crusaders a special indulgence that was supposed to guarantee that, if they died in battle, then their sins would be remitted, and they would go to Heaven. (The people of the churches then and still up to now promissing the same for their sinner people!!!. Are they taking the place of God in the days of judgment??? )

Would you want any of these men to be your pastor?"

2- I will add to those the thousand of people who run your churches who abused childrens, and paid billions of dollars settlements for what they did and many others like them are protected by the churches, and they are not punished according to your laws.

The " Imams, Ayatollah’s and Mufti’s, and their religion (ISLAM)" which you do not like, and you do not respect, they are far better people than your leaders, either in churches or in governments.THAT IS THE TRUTH. Jesus said:
"WHY DO YOU LOOK AT THE SPECK THAT IS IN YOUR BROTHER'S EYE, BUT DO NOT NOTICE THE LOG THAT IS IN YOUR EYE?'L-6:41

I hope you understand what Jesus said.
3- You said : acceptable to God?. Do you think what your leaders in churches and in govrnments, and the people who supporting them are following the teaching of Jesus and the COMMANDMENTS OF GOD ?.

Here are the most impotant ones:
1- You shall have no other gods before ME. (ONE GOD) (THE ONE AND ONLY GOD)
2- You shall not make for yourself an IDOL or any likeness...(But you have them in the chershes)
3- You shall not take the name of your LORD your GOD in vain....(but you make Him as three person!)
4- You shall not muder. (but you kill millions and in the name of God!!!)
5- You shall not commit adultery. (but the western world, and from the time the Christianity moved to Rome until this day, adultery and other sins became the normal in their lives, and never really fought back!!!)
6- You shall not steal. (the history tells us the the churches and the governments in the west done a lot of it. If you want the facts I will bring them to you.)
7- You shall not bear false witness against you neighbor. (But your politic built upon lies and more lies and false witness.!!!)
Do Christians understand these commandments?. Jesus words are right and tells us the truth, and what He said can represent the past, the present, and the future:
"YOU ARE EXPERTS AT SETTING ASIDE THE COMMANDMENT OF GOD IN ORDER TO KEEP YOUR TRADITION." Mark 7:9.

(B)- You said: " I believe that any religion blessed by God would have to follow God's laws"
----------------------------------
I agree with you, but can you be honest and tell me if the Chritians, churches and governments and people are following the GOD'S LAWS???.

(C)- and you said: " and this would be reflected in the lifestyle of the ones adhering to that religion."
---------------------------------------------
-I- brought here just few example written by a Christian NUN, If that is not enough I am willing to bring tons more and by the words of the Christians themselves and no others.
The LIFE STYLE of the Christians, the leaders and their followers, it reflect to what they are, and Jesus and God will not accept or agree to what they are doing. The are not following the God"s laws and commandments. It does not matter if you agree with me on this or not, because I believe in God and in all His messengers, and I follow His commandments which came by Moses, Jesus and Muhammad. I am not a prejudice or bias. All Muslims suppose to believe in all the prophet and their messages to be counted as a Muslim.

(D)- In other words, what is the end result of people following a certain religion? Unfortunately, most of the religions I know of have a dismal record of following God's laws."
----------------------------------------
THE END RESULT, as been taken from your end result, shows clearly that you are traying to switch the truth, which started long time ago when the Islam came, and the churches try to attack it with their lies, and they kept doing it till now, and UNFORTUNATLY you do not know the others religion well to judge them. You cannot judge the religion by its people, I do not judge the Christianity (Jesus teachings) by those who claim that they are christians and who does wrong, and you cannot judge Islam (teaching of the Quran) by those who claim themselves as Muslim but they do not follow the laws of God in the Quran.
What I brought about the Popes and others, it is not against Christianity, and you should understand that, but against the people who claim that they are Christians.
Someone might say "I am not catholic", but all the christians until the coming of the new sects were catholic or orthodox, and the new sect has their own wrong doings, if you like i will bring some.

God bless you

Name: CanuckChick • Date: 04/24/07 14:15

A: Sam's statement: "The " Imams, Ayatollah’s and Mufti’s, and their religion (ISLAM)" which you do not like, and you do not respect, they are far better people than your leaders, either in churches or in governments.THAT IS THE TRUTH. Jesus said:
"WHY DO YOU LOOK AT THE SPECK THAT IS IN YOUR BROTHER'S EYE, BUT DO NOT NOTICE THE LOG THAT IS IN YOUR EYE?'L-6:41"

Sam: A small point - Your statement above is not true. I do not dislike Muslim people, and I have respect for people who do their best to live up to their religious convictions. In fact, I help a woman in Bosnia, through Women for Women International, who happens to be Muslim.

I don't want to engage in a finger-pointing exercise with each of us saying: "Your religion is responsible for more atrocities than mine." What's the point?

As for the rest of your post, I agree with you.

I believe that Christendom will have much to answer for on the day of judgement. Many other religions have also committed atrocities that go against their teachings.

Jesus said: "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you resemble whitewashed graves, which outwardly indeed appear beautiful but inside are full of dead men's bones and of every sort of uncleanness. In that way you also, outwardly indeed, appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness." (Matt 23:27,28)

Sam, you said:
"You cannot judge the religion by its people, I do not judge the Christianity (Jesus teachings) by those who claim that they are christians and who does wrong, and you cannot judge Islam (teaching of the Quran) by those who claim themselves as Muslim but they do not follow the laws of God in the Quran."

I have a question for you: How are we supposed to know whether a religion is the true one?

CC

Name: Panluna • Date: 04/24/07 19:21

A: When you consider the fact that the first religion of humankind was to honor the natural world and spirit(the greatest mystery) around them I would say that the truest religion is to be true to oneself without trespassing on the rights of others.All the religions have good points it's the way the followers treat each individual that makes the differences in the way they are viewed and accepted,then recorded in history.

Name: Panluna • Date: 04/24/07 19:33

A: WHO WILL COME to save this world?It's up to us!!!Why wait for Someone Else to show up to do the job.It's our world to take care of.Peace,Love Kindness, Respect and good deeds should be our daily mantra.So we can get along with each other.We've had many teachers in the past and people who have set good examples.It's in their words that we find our answers and fullfill our destinies.

Name: Shlomo • Date: 04/25/07 1:05

A: Panluna,

You are right about a Peace, love, kindness, and good deeds by everyone in the world. The original isystem was set up in a yes/no, left/right, right/wrong, good/evil, but, alas, the balance is out of wack and
it will be a person of a great magnitude to bring it back in balance.

Name: Panluna • Date: 04/25/07 1:34

A: That's quite a burden to put on one person.I think everyone should do their share to make this world a better place to live in.And it begins with me.

Name: sam • Date: 04/26/07 22:00

A: CanuchChic,

Re Jehovah's Witnesses: The modern-day history of Jehovah's Witnesses began with the forming of a group for bible study in Allegheny, Pennsylvania in the early 1870's. At first they were known only as Bible Students, but in 1931 they adopted the Scriptural name Jehovah's Witnesses. Their beliefs and practices are not new but are a restoration of first-century Christianity. (from your post 04-18)
-------------------------
Thank you for giving me these information. Now I understand that it was a group of students (scholars) who were previously Christians (catholic/protestant/orthodox???), who tryed to find the truth, by going back to the Bible, the same Bible that they others read and follow wrongly!.
I understand that during the past two thousand years many different bibles were written, (confused), some claims that KJB is the one that can be trusted, and others claims that theirs is right!!!. And during those years many goup of churches and sects where created and then came the Jehovah's Witnesses (small group) to bring the truth which the others missed, and knowing that the others are the billions of Christians with their thinkers and scholars and universities etc., they were wrong in all those passing years?, while readign the same Bibles!. How can that be?, Is what is written in the Bible is not clear, but confusing and needs interpretation?.

CanuckChick, You brought your beliefs here, but before questioning those, I would like to make few points clear so you do not misunderstand me again.
- As people we are responsible to what we do, and we can be judged either by people on earth in this age or by God in the age to come. The judgment here sometimes cannot always be right, and might have many faces, and it depend on different points of views, but the end judgment is for God alone, and it is 100% fair, everything we do will be put on a scale, and God Might forgive us for some wrong doings that might come among the many good things that we done, but one thing God will never forgive us, that is if we say word against Him, and it does not matter how good we done.
Here, the word of Jesus, and those came from God:
Therefore I (JESUS) say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, BUT BLAPHEMY AGAINST THE SPIRIT (GOD) SHALL NOT BE FORGIVEN. Whoever speaks a word against the son of man (JESUS), it shall be forgiven him; BUT WHOEVER SPEAKS AGAINST THE HOLY SPIRIT (GOD), IT SHALL NOT BE FORGIVEN HIM, either in this age or the age to come." God word is final and cannot be changed, and those who tell others that if you believe in Jesus as the son of God ot other things you are saved, they are telling lies.

And the word of God in the Quran told us the same:
"Indeed, Allah (God) DOES NOT FORGIVE ASSOCIATION WITH HIM, BUT HE FORGIVES WHAT IS LESS THAN THAT FOR WHOM HE WILLS. And he who associates others with Allah has certainly fabricated a tremendous sin." Q-4:48

You believe that Jesus is not God and the trinity formula is wrong, and it was fabricated in Rome, everyone know this story, and that is against the word of God (The Lord our God is one Lord....No one is good except God alone...The one and only God...That they may know you, THE ONLY TRUE GOD....THE SON OF MAN....ETC.) But you believe that Jesus is the son of God, "as the bible says, he is the Son of God". Did you know:
A- That Jesus is known to all His followers at His time that He is the promissed prophet, and always mentioned Himself as the son of man (89 times in the gospels) and as you see in the above verses.
B- Did you know that the son of God formula was created and preached for the first time by PAUL in Damascus and came after Jesus death, and was not accepted by the early christians. There was debates about it and about the trinity for many years.
C- Did you know that those who wrote the four gospels were under the influence of Paul and His followers in Rome?, and the christians been forced to believe in only those chosen gospels and discard the rest!!!.
D- Did you know that many words in the gospel been changed to reflect the opinion of what Paul want them to teach?, here an ex:
John 9:35 NASB..............................THE SON OF MAN..
John 9:35 KJB..................................THE SON OF GOD...
You might say as the many others that they are the same, but the truth they are not. Man is man, and God is God, and changing the word to suit your purpose is nothing but a clear forgery, and a word against God. God does not have a sons or daughters, and if it say in the bible that "Adam the son of God" L-3:38, that does not means That Adam is His son in our terms father and son, but as a man created by God.
J-1:12 "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the SONS of God". Is that mean that there are many sons for God?

Beliefs:
1) Bible: Jehovah's Witnesses believe that the entire bible is the inspired Word of God,
------------------------------
First, Which Bible is yours, the KJB or NASB or other.. ?
Second, Your Bible is the OT & the NT together as one unit, and that includes the letters of Paul to his friends ?
Third, You follow the teaching of Jesus or Paul?
Forth,, The inspired word of God !, do you think that they suppose to tell all the truth and leave no place for doubt or confusion? (as we can see-Jesus, the son of God, then part of God' the trinity', then He is the God etc.) or mistakes or false information (in Genesis and in the Gospels stories)?. You think God will make huge mistakes or tell a nonsence stories? Jesus said:
"WHEN YOU LIFT UP THE SON OF MAN, THEN YOU WILL KNOW THAT I AM HE,.."

2) God: They worship Jehovah as the only true God .
---------------------------------
Our creator is one, but we, His creatures created for Him many names. THERE ARE MANY NAME FOR GOD AS THERE ARE LANGUAGES. saying Jehova is the only true God is wrong and not logical. Jesus spoke Aramaic, and the Arabic is a branch that came from that language, and Jesus used the word "ELI" & "ALLAH" for the creator, and if Jesus used those names they suppose to be used by His follower and nothing else like, GOD or DIEW or whatsoever the Roman and the Greeks used for their man made gods.

3) Jesus Christ: They believe, not that Jesus Christ is part of a trinity, but that, as the bible says, he is the Son of God, the first of God's creations; that he had a prehuman existence and that his life was transferred from heaven to the womb of a vigin, Mary.
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Did Jesus says that He was created before Adam & Eve?, or did Jesus told His creation as you mentioned above or that one of your creations?
In the gospel of Luke 3:23 it say: "When He (Jesus) began His ministry, Jesus Himself was about thirty years of age, BEING, AS WAS SUPPOSED, THE SIN OF JOSEPH, THE SON OF ELI." (of course Eli here is not the God that Jesus mentioned on the cross but the father of Joseph.)
And this was ended by this verse 38, "The son of Enosh, the son of Seth, THE SON OF ADAM, THE SON OF GOD."
According to what the bible said Jesus was born to Mary and fathered by Joseph (and He has many brothers and sisters etc.)and came to be after many children that came from Adam the son of God (whom been created by God), at the time of the creation of Adam there was no woman on earth period. Adam was the first.

CanuckChick, You asked a good question.
"I have a question for you: How are we supposed to know whether a religion is the true one?"
---------------------------------------------
I-n- front of you and me there are three religions, those who believe in the creator and the creation.
To find the truth, that is if we are really seeking the truth, then first of all we should free ourselves from the others influences and use our brain and the logic to determine the truth of the information that came to us thousands of years ago, rather than accept things because we believe in without any question. We should ask questions and try to find the logical answers.
Q- Why God has to send so many prophets and messages?
A- Because after time the people while still remembering the messenger and all their stories, they do try to make their own laws and switch the message.
Q- Did the prophets wrote the Message of God, or witnessed what was written?
A- NO, The many books of bible OT were written many years after, and no one is sure who wrote them. And from the many gospel which were written only four were chosen and the rest burned, and those written not by the language spoken by Jesus (Aramaic), and done after long time from the death of the messenger, and there were some changes in those books. The only book that was written in the language of the messenger and at His time and witnessed by Him is the Quran, and not a word changed in that book in the last 14 centuries.
Q- Why these three religion who believe in God, they do not agree or accept each other?
A- Even the believe in God started long before Moses, but God gave Moses the commandment and supported Him by many miracles, and gave Him the laws that people should follow, and those to be added to the stories of the previous prophets, which makes the first holy book (the Torah), and in that book there was a prophecy about the comming of the Messiah "JESUS", and of cource people were waiting, but when the Messiah Jesus came and even was suppoted by many miracle, the Jews (mostly run by their leaders) they refuse to accept Him, and they still refuse to accept Him today. WHY, because it is the normal things for people is to defend their kingdoms and powers on earth by all means. God rules in heaven but they are the rulers on earth. How can they let a poor carpenter son take all what they worked for, for years?
The same story repeated again when the new prophet and messenger came. Jesus mentioned His coming in the Gospel (THE HELPER WHO HE WILL SEND FROM THE FATHER), read John 16:7-15. But you think that the popes and bishops of Rome and the rest who run th churches who built a great kingdoms for themselves and has the power will be looking for the new comer or will axcept him when He comes?. Jesus and all His miracles was not convincing enough for the Jews, so what about a prophet who is an orphan and a shepherd and who cannot read or write, and all what He came with is a Book. You think that the Jews and the christians will care much about the information that book holds, since they did not follow the words of Jesus or Moses, but created their own beliefs (the trinity & other stuff).
Q- which more important, the word of God by His messengers or the word of the people?
A- whithout any doubt, the word of God and His messengers only.
Q- which book can be accepted as the true word of God without any doubt at all?
A- The answer to that will take more than few words, and I will talk about it in my next post to you.

God bless you.

Name: CanuckChick • Date: 04/27/07 14:57

A: Sam: Many thanks for your post.

If a religion is teaching incorrect doctrines, I do not believe it can have God's blessing.

Many teach the trinity doctrine, participation in war (to the point of blessing their soldiers), a celibate priesthood, and permission of homosexual behaviors, to name just a few. The bible does not teach the trinity, nor does it demand a celibate priesthood. Killing our fellow man and homosexuality are clearly condemned. Most churches condone these things. I believe it is to hold onto their power. They prefer to "tickle the ears" of their congregation, in order to maintain a following.

Jesus said: "Go in through the narrow gate, because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it." (Matthew 7:13,14)

Jesus himself spoke of his prehuman existence beside his father. One example - "So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was." (John 17:5)

I use the New World Translation of the bible, but it doesn't really matter which version you use. The overall message is the same. As I've stated before, it makes sense to me that the creator of the universe wouldn't have too much difficulty in ensuring the survival of one little book, to let us understand his purpose.

Was Jesus the son of Joseph? The bible tells us his life-force was transferred by God to the womb of the then virgin woman, Mary. It goes on to tell us that she later had other children - four sons are named, two daughters un-named.

I agree that we need to ask many questions before we decide whether a religion teaches the truth. I had many questions when the witnesses began calling at my door. They were able to answer them all, from the bible. I noticed that they were exceptionally "good" people, which is something I would expect to find in those following Jesus' teachings. Those who participate in unscriptural behavior are expelled from the congregation. They are not interested in keeping their numbers swelled with imposter Christians. They are interested in keeping the congregation clean. I understand this is not a popular stand in today's world, where "anything goes".

I believe the scripture you quoted in John 16 is referring to the holy spirit (God's active force).

Sam, I honestly don't know that much about the Muslim faith. I do know that most religions preach peace and brotherhood. Sadly, few adhere to their teachings.

Again, I have great respect for those trying to live by their beliefs. The fact that I believe the bible to be God's word, does not give me the right to judge others. That belongs to God, the reader of hearts.

Peace to you,
CC

Name: sam • Date: 04/28/07 0:20

A: Hi CanuckChick,

continue. The answer to your question: "I have a question for you: How are we supposed to know whether a RELIGION is the true one?"
---------------------------------------
Her-e- how all the religions evolved,

GOD....MESSAGES....MESS-ENGER......RELIGION.........PEOPLE.-
GOD... TORAH.............MOSES..............JEWD-AISM.......JEWS
GOD...GOSPEL............-JESUS...........CHRISTIANITY....CHRISTIAN-S
GOD...QURAN.............MUHAMMAD......-.......ISLAM..................MUSLIMS

-As- we see above,
First, THAT ALL THREE RELIGIONS CAME FROM ONE SOURCE, AND THAT IS GOD.
note: the main objective in all religions is to understand that there is a creator, and to believe in Him as the only God and to follow his commandment.
#1 commandment, OT, Moses: YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME.
NT, Jesus: THE ONE AND ONLY GOD...THE ONLY TRUE GOD.
Quran, Muhammad: THE ONE AND ONLY GOD.

Second, GOD SENT HIS MESSAGE BY A CHOSEN MESSENGER.
note: it is very important to know that GOD message is far more important than the messenger. When you ask why?, that is because the messenger is a servant to God, He comes and leave but the message "the word of God" it will come and stay forever.
(SMALL EXAMPLE: If a letter came from the president and delivered to you by the post-man, you think that post-man is more inpotant that the president message?)
" Behold, MY SERVANT(JESUS) WHOM I HAVE CHOSEN" M-12:18
"...BUT THE FATHER(GOD) HIMSELF WHO SENT ME HAS GIVEN ME (JESUS) A COMMANDMENT AS TO WHAT TO SAY AND WHAT TO SPEAK." J-12:49
Jesus died, but His word and His message the God's message is alive.
The commandment which God gave to Moses and Jesus, similar commandment is given to Muhammad:
- "O PROPHET, INDEED WE HAVE SENT YOU AS A WITNESS AND BRINGER OF GOOD TIDING AND A WARNER."Q-33:45
- "AND WE DID CERTAINLY SEND MOSES WITH OUR SIGNS AND CLEAR AUTHORITY." Q-11:96
- "MUHAMMAD IS NOT BUT A MESSENGER. OTHER MESSENGERS HAVE PASSED ON BEFORE HIM. SO IF HE WAS TO DIE OR BE KILLED, WOULD YOU TURN BACK ON YOUR HEELS (TO UNBELIEF)? AND HE WHO TURNS BACK ON HIS HEELS WILL NEVER HARM GOD AT ALL; BUT GOD WILL REWARD THE GRATEFUL." Q- 3:144
"AND WE HAVE NOT REVEALED TO YOU THE BOOK (QURAN), O (MUHAMMAD), EXCEPT FOR YOU TO MAKE CLEAR TO THEM THAT WHERIN THEY HAVE DIFFERED AND AS GUIDANCE AND MERCY FOR PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE." Q-16:64
"O PEOPLE OF THE SCRIPTURE, WHY DO YOU ARGUE ABOUT ABRAHAM WHILE THE TORAH AND THE GOSPEL WERE NOT REVEALED UNTIL AFTER HIM? THEN WILL YOU NOT REASON?." Q-3:65

Third, from what we read above (in the Gospel & Quran) we understand that the GOD WORD is the light which will guide us to find the truth of any religion. The question is, how to find God's words and separate them from the people words?
1- God words are clearly came from God, as the commandment to Moses or what Jesus spoke (EX: J-12:49), or the words in the Quran (i will bring some example latter on **).
2- People words when attached to God words and calling it "revelation" or "VISION", or personal letters, or stories told about people*, that is, as if the message of God was not clear or short, or God forgot something important and did not reveal all what he wants to His messenger (the prophet), so God has to follow it up by undirect messages to a special people through supernatural agency!!!. Those people who claimed visions or revelations and then added it to the real message are doing a distortion to it, and the simple message that should everyone can understand will become a confusing one and only the scholars and the high priest can make from it what ever they like (The one and only God by Jesus became the God with three persons because of the visions and the revelations of some people!)
* Here what the OT holds. That what i recieve from Protestant friend in NG forums.
Genesis – Creation, Flood, and Abraham through Joseph and derived either from existing historical references by Moses or revelation from God (We are not told specifically.)!!! (no one knows)
Exodus – Giving of the "LAW" (Torah) and Instructions for Building the Tabernacle. (the "LAW" from God but instuction of building is not)
Leviticus – More "LAW" (Torah) historical events (The "LAW" from God, but the historical events are not)
Numbers – More "LAW" (Torah), census, historical events the "LAW" from God the events are not)
Deuteronomy – explanation of the law (Torah).
So when you read this from EXODUS:1:1 Now these are the names of the children of Israel, which came into Egypt; every man and his household came with Jacob. 1:2 Reuben, Simeon, Levi, and Judah,
1:3 Issachar, Zebulun, and Benjamin, etc..... or
1SAMUEL:1:1 Now there was a certain man of Ramathaimzophim, of mount Ephraim, and his name was Elkanah, the son of Jeroham, the son of Elihu, the son of Tohu, the son of Zuph, an Ephrathite:....or
MALACHI:1:1 The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi.
1:2 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,
1:3 And I hated Esau, !!!.
Those are stories of the people but not the story of the prophet, and the love and hate story cannot be claimed to God, the Almighty God does not come to be interrested in the personal life of people and love some and hate another, because the judgment of God will come only at the end of time.
and the story of creation in GENESIS is far too wrong to be accepted logically, and the story of Abraham ,Sarah, and Hagar is wrong. When Ishmael was at the age of 16, Abraham put Him on his mother shoulder and the water and the bread, and they walk for days in the desert !!! WOW, can anyone believe this story, and all that happen because of Sarah who wanted everything for her son:
21:10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.
21:11 And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son.
My questions: - anyone think that God will side with the rich and strong against the poor and the weak?. - Will God accept what happen to the Hagar and her son Ishmael, while Abraham Himself was "very grievous"?

I will bring to you just one example from NT: Matthew:
4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
4:2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.
4:5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
My questions: - In those forty days and forty night, and on top of the pinnacle, and on top of a high mountains, there was anyone else beside Jesus and the devil to record the story word by word?. - you think the son of God (or part of God- or God) should know beter about the kingdoms of the world, and more than the devil?. - Who is in charge, God or the devil, to let Jesus be run by the devil?. - This story did not come from Jesus, otherwise they surely mentioned as Jesus said, but surely came from the devil.
bringing all that to show you how to analyze what you read to come to the truth. While bringing the false stories, I believe that the LAWS which came in the Bilble, and Jesus word are the true word of God, and they are holy word.
We should not follow blindly, because it is our sole responsibility and no one can defend us when we stand before God in the judgment day, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad gave us an advance warning. Blind who follow blind will fall ito the pit for sure.

I hope that I give you the right answer, my friend.

God bless you.

Name: Shlomo • Date: 04/28/07 4:56

A: sam,

The three religions did not come from one source. Two are a mixture of iron and clay. The new covenant is a hybrid of Torah verses which were contextually eliminated, plus Apostle writings, and Hellenistic demi-god philosophy, merged into one to create the new religion of a trinity. Qu'ran is also a hybrid of Torah with verses which were contextually eliminated, new covenant, Arabic stories, Mohammad and the various Arabic leader sayings merged, from a pantheon of idols, to a monotheistic religion.

Name: Panluna • Date: 04/28/07 13:06

A: The religion that one believes in is the true religion for that person.There is no religion higher than the Truth.Seek and you shall find.Ask and it will be given to you.And your angel will guide you.I always look towards nature for inner-peace.My answer is found in the bird-song and the sound of the waves.

Name: CanuckChick • Date: 04/28/07 16:36

A: Greetings Sam! I enjoyed your last post very much.

But, I don't think I'm getting my point across.

In basic English: If a religion is good, then it follows that good people should come out of it. They would display the virtues that God encourages us to cultivate.

"Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to you in sheep's covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? Likewise every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit; a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire. Really, then, by their fruits you will recognize those men." (Matthew 7:15-20)

A good question to ask ourselves might be: What kind of fruit does my religion produce? Does its teaching influence its people for good? Is that influence evident in its followers every-day lives?

I agree with you that we should not follow any religion blindly. "But we know that the Son of God has come, and he has given us INTELLECTUAL CAPACITY (caps mine) that we may gain the knowledge of the true one. (1 John 5:20a)

I was raised Roman Catholic. At the tender age of 12 I began to ask the priest many questions. He responded as if I was attacking him personally, and told me that many of the church teachings were "sacred mysteries". I didn't buy that, and stopped going to church. Since that time, I have spoken with several other priests, and got much the same response.

When I was 34, my husband died. Jehovah's Witnesses had been calling on me for about 8 months previously. Of course, I wanted to know what had happened to my husband. Where was he now? Was he in heaven? In hell? They answered all my questions, from the bible. There were no "sacred mysteries". It was all laid out for anyone to read and understand.

I was very impressed with the kindness, gentleness and decency of the two women who answered my questions. I wondered: How do you get like that in today's world? When I started going to the kingdom hall (JW church) I discovered that there were alot more people like them. They displayed the virtues (to varying degrees) that Jesus taught. They were doing their best to live according to God's laws, as taught in the bible...a very unpopular stand in today's world, where anything goes.

They love their neighbour enough to humble themselves by going door to door to tell people about God's message to humankind. They're not stupid, and they know that many people do not appreciate their visits. They do it anyway, following Jesus' direction: "Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you al the days until the conclusion of the system of things." (Matthew 28:19-20)

They do not participate in any wars, and are often imprisoned for their stand. They were a target of Hitler's cruelty, and many died in the concentration camps of WW2.

They stand against many things accepted as normal and right by mainstream society - blood transfusions, homosexuality, promiscuous sexual behaviour, lying and violence in its many forms. I don't want to make them out to be saints, but I know from personal experience that they are doing their best to follow God's laws.

To me, these things mark this religion as having God's blessing.

CC

Name: sam • Date: 04/29/07 0:10

A: Hi Shlomo,

You quoted this:
A- "The three religions did not come from one source. Two are a mixture of iron and clay"
---------------------------------
Are you sure?, What is the source of your religion, God or the people who created the books?. Is your books coming direct from the source?. can you prove it?. Is it true that the books which come from the sorce should bring only the truth, and do not bring wrong or bad informations?.

"And of the people is he who disputes about Allah (God) WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE or guidance or an ENLIGHTENING BOOK FROM HIM."Q-22:8

KNOWLEDGE & BOOK. Some of the knowledge that came in your book are wrong, for EX. the earth and the grass were created before the sun and the stars. if you want more example let me know.
As for Abraham and Moses and Jesus and Muhammad, their knowledge were very limited and their knowledge about the world that they live in was completely wrong, the earth for them was a flat land and the center of the world, you should know that if you have some knowledge in history.

B- "Qu'ran is also a hybrid of Torah with verses which were contextually eliminated, new covenant, Arabic stories, Mohammad and the various Arabic leader sayings merged, from a pantheon of idols, to a monotheistic religion."
----------------------------------
C- Arabic stories.
-------------------
You are wrong, The Quran has none, there are no stories about Arabic people or stories about the prophet or His family or His friends, and Muhammad name came only five times, and was not about His life but only about His mission as a prophet and servant to God, the one and only God, as the Jews believe.
3:144-- Muhammad is not but a messenger. Other messengers have passed on before Him.....
33:40 - Muhammad is not the father of any one of your men, but He is the messenger of Allah (God) and seal of the prophets....
47:2 - And those who believe and do righteous deeds and believe in what has been sent down upon Muhammad and it is the truth from their LORD....
The other prophets were mentioned mostly as prophet and what their message was.
Abraham (69 times), Moses (136), Jesus (33), Jacob (16) and the virgin Mary (34 time + a whole chapter in Her name.
The stories about the prophets are not the same as in the Bible, because it did not talk about the greed of Sarah and the hate of Hagar because it is a sevant, that not God word but the people of Sarah and her tribe word.

We all know the stories of the Gospels, from burning some to forgery in the others, but as for me the "TORAH with VERSES which were contextually ELIMINATED"!!!, that is a surprise. And my questions are:
1- Are your books HOLY books?.
2- Are your books AUTHENTIC & GENUINE & came from UNDISPUTED ORIGIN ?.
3- Is eliminating verses from the books is a sort of forgery?, and it is a crime against God..
4- How can anyone eliminate words from a book that he claims those are the word of God?. Can you chose what you like and eliminate what you do not like from God's word?.
5- Can a book which hold wrong information be from God?. The six day creation (GENESIS), and the stars will fall down on earth and Jesus will come on the cloud (GOSPELS) be accepted by anyone who live in the 21st century?.
6- You mentioned new covenant, did you people discard the old covenant?.

THE BOOKS IN WHICH THE WORD CAN BE SWITCHED OR ELIMINATED CANNOT BE REGARDED AS HOLY BOOKS, THE WORD OF GOD IS NOT QUESTIONABLE AND CANNOT BE CHANGED BY MAN.

While your holy books were written after long time from the time of Abraham and Moses and Jesus and changed by the years, the Quran never changed, not one word added or eliminated since it was written, beside, the knowledge that came in the Quran is a proof to its authenticity, because what been told before 1400 years ago came to be true later on and can be proved by scientific facts. The Quran said:
38:88 - AND YOU WILL SURELY KNOW THE TRUTH OF ITS INFORMATION AFTER TIME.

In my previous post (for sure you read some) I brought some examples, but you try to egnore the truth, and kepp supporting yours while they contain many falses. I am going to bring one example again, And I will support it by what I read this morning the news on MSN. AND WHAT MENTIONED BEFORE IN 2002 BY THE SPACE AGENCY.

65:12- IT IS GOD WHO CREATED SEVEN HEAVENS AND OF THE EARTH, LIKE OF THEM.

Before 1400 years, the word of God in the Quran told us that the truth of its information WILL COME AFTER TIME, and told us that HE is the creator, and told us that HE created the heaven and earth, and LIKE OF THEM. were those information right or wrong? let us look at the scientific discoveries of the 21st century: SPACE.COM (2002)

"Astronomers find most extrasolar planets indirectly by watching the stars they circle. The planet's gravity causes its parent star to wobble, just slightly, but enough to be measured from Earth.

"Now we can see long period planets, we can check for multiple planets in systems already known to contain a single planet and check for Jupiter analogues that may indicate solar systems like our own," Queloz said.

The Jupiter-like PLANET FOUND by the European team orbits its host star in about seven years, a few short of the nearly 12 it takes Jupiter to round the Sun.

Improved ground instruments, astronomers say, could make earthbound observations 100 times better, and one such tool -- the High Accuracy Radial velocity Planetary Search (HARPS) spectrograph, will soon be installed onto the European Southern Observatory's La silla observatory in chile.

Scientists also hope to spot other planets using a transit-method, which measures the change in a star's light output as a planet crosses between it and observers on Earth.

Meanwhile, both NASA and the European Space Agency are looking toward space as a better home base to fish for planets.

NASA has two missions planned over the next decade. Kepler, slated to launch in 2007, will attempt to generate a census of EARTH - LIKE PLANETS AROUND SUN-LIKE OUR STAR, but it will only detect them -- no photographs will be possible. Later, the Terrestrial Planet Finder is slated to make the first images of Earth-like planets around other stars"

That was from 2002 research, and today in 2007 the new from MSN brought this:
ASTRONOMY.
Discovery of THE FIRST EARTH-LIKE PLANET outside the solar system.
discovered by French, Swiss, and Portuguese researchers using the HARP Spectrograph on the 3.6 M Telescope of THE EUROPEAN SOUTHERN OBSERVATORY (ESO) AT SILLA IN CHILE.
And here what the artist picture gave from information:

{........................................193,996 BILLION KM.......}
SUN...........EARTH..........-..NEPTUNE.......//............EXO-PLANET
-
- 0.1496 4.490
BILLION KM BILLION KM

Did you know that in our known universe there are 200+ billion galaxies, and in each galaxiy there are 200+ billion stars, and the NASA scientist estimates that the stars in the known universe are about 30 billion trillion stars.

Those people who wrote the Bible and the Gospels they did not no more than the flat earth and small object of lite and they call them stars and they were created after the earth!!!.

Here are few opinion from western and eastern scientists:
1- Dr. T. V. N. Persaud is Professor of Anatomy, Professor of Pediatrics and Child Health, and Professor of Obstetrics, Gynecology, and Reproductive Sciences at the University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada. There, he was the Chairman of the Department of Anatomy for 16 years. He is well-known in his field. He is the author or editor of 22 textbooks and has published over 180 scientific papers. In 1991, he received the most distinguished award presented in the field of anatomy in Canada, the J.C.B. Grant Award from the Canadian Association of Anatomists. Professor Persaud has included some Quranic verses and sayings of the Prophet Muhammad in some of his books - and presented these verses and sayings of the Prophet Muhammad at several conferences. When he was asked about the scientific miracles in the Quran which he has researched, he stated the following:

“...Muhammad .. could not read, didn’t know to write. - You have someone illiterate making profound pronouncements - amazingly accurate about scientific nature. [so] many accuracies - I have no difficulty in my mind that this is a divine inspiration or revelation which led him to these statements.”

2- Dr. E. Marshall Johnson is Professor Emeritus of Anatomy and Developmental Biology at Thomas Jefferson University, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA. There, for 22 years he was Professor of Anatomy, the Chairman of the Department of Anatomy, and the Director of the Daniel Baugh Institute. He was also the President of the Teratology Society. He has authored more than 200 publications. In 1981, during the Seventh Medical Conference in Dammam, Saudi Arabia, Professor Johnson said in the presentation of his research paper:

[summary] "The Quran describes not only the development of external form, but emphasizes also the internal stages, the stages inside the embryo, of its creation and development, emphasizing major events recognized by contemporary science."

Also he said: “As a scientist, I can only deal with things which I can specifically see. I can understand embryology and developmental biology. I can understand the words that are translated to me from the Quran. As I gave the example before, if I were to transpose myself into that era, knowing what I knew today and describing things, I could not describe the things which were described. I see no evidence for the fact to refute the concept that this individual, Muhammad, had to be developing this information from some place. So I see nothing here in conflict with the concept that divine intervention was involved in what he was able to write.”

4) Dr. William W. Hay is a well-known marine scientist. He is Professor of Geological Sciences at the University of Colorado, Boulder, Colorado, USA. He was formerly the Dean of the Rosenstiel School of Marine and Atmospheric Science at the University of Miami, Miami, Florida, USA. After a discussion with Professor Hay about the Quran’s mention of recently discovered facts on seas, he said:

“I find it very interesting that this sort of information is in the ancient scriptures of the Holy Quran, and I have no way of knowing where they would come from, but I think it is extremely interesting that they are there and that this work is going on to discover it, the meaning of some of the passages.”
And when he was asked about the source of the Quran, he replied: “Well, I would think it must be the divine being.”

5) Dr. Gerald C. Goeringer is Course Director and Associate Professor of Medical Embryology at the Department of Cell Biology, School of Medicine, Georgetown University, Washington, DC, USA. During the presentation of his research paper:

“In a relatively few aayahs (Quranic verses) is contained a rather comprehensive description of human development from the time of commingling of the gametes through organogenesis. No such distinct and complete record of human development, such as classification, terminology, and description, existed previously. In most, if not all, instances, this description antedates by many centuries the recording of the various stages of human embryonic and fetal development recorded in the traditional scientific literature."

6) Dr. Yoshihide Kozai is Professor Emeritus at Tokyo University, Hongo, Tokyo, Japan, and was the Director of the National Astronomical Observatory, Mitaka, Tokyo, Japan. He said:

“I am very much impressed by finding TRUE ASTRONOMICAL FACTS IN THE QURAN, and for us the modern astronomers have been studying very small pieces of the universe. We’ve concentrated our efforts for understanding of [a] very small part. Because by using telescopes, we can see only very few parts [of] the sky without thinking [about the] whole universe. So, by reading [the] Quran and by answering to the questions, I think I CAN FIND MY FUTURE WAY FOR INVESTIGATION OF THE UNIVERSE."

D- "Mohammad and the various Arabic leader sayings merged, from a pantheon of idols, to a monotheistic religion."
----------------------
Either you do not know the truth about Islam and the Quran, or you are an egnorant who try to spread lies like the millions out there. It is easy for the one who forged the books and the word of God to do anything, laying is a less sin than forging the holy books.

Islam, is the believing in one God, our creator, the God of Abraham and Moses and Jesus, and Muhammad. Jesus said:
"HEAR O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD." And Jesus word are the truth, because it came to Him from God.

Shlomo, please, can you tell me what name you use for God in Hebrew and Aramaic, I would like to know.

God bless you.

Name: sam • Date: 04/29/07 20:15

A: Dear CanuckChick,

I too enjoy reading your posts, and I take your word seriously, and I do respect your opinion, and from your word I can see what a good person you are (regardless to what your believe is). Jesus said:

"...the things which proceed out of the man are what defile the man."

"But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man."
"FOR BY YOUR WORDS YOU WILL BE JUSTIFIED, AND BY YOUR WORDS YOU WILL BE CONDEMNED."

"But He answered and said to them, " MY MOTHER AND MY BROTHERS ARE THOSE WHO HEAR THE WORD OF GOD AND DO IT."

"But He said, "On the contrary, blessed are those WHO HEAR THE WORD OF GOD AND OBSERVE IT."

"And everyone who speaks a word against the SON OF MAN (JESUS), it will be forgiven him, BUT HE WHO BLESPHEMES AGAINST THE HOLY SPIRIT (GOD), IT WILL NOT BE FORGIVEN HIM." (by making His messenger and servant a son to Him or make him a three persons, then God).

CanuchChick, you said: "But, I don't think I'm getting my point across."
-------------------------
In the contrary, I understand very well what your aims are, and please tell me the truth if I am wrong. Here are your point:
1- "In basic English: If a religion is good, then it follows that good people should come out of it. They would display the virtues that God encourages us to cultivate."
A- Your aims here against the other religions (Christians & Muslims to make them look bad and wrong).
B- you wanted to tell me that because you are a good person and those who follow the Jehovah's Witness are good people, then their religion is good and the right one?
C- The Amish are good people too and so the Buddhist people in NEPAL, and the Bahai whom their teaching "the complete equality of men and women and the unity of all humanity", then what about the Bushmem people in south Africa ( who never kill or lie or hate, and when they kill an animal for food, the apologize to it) Is that means that their religions or beliefs not as good as yours ?.

- When you said: "If a religion is good, then it follows that good people should come out of it. "

C1- Then LOGICALLY we can say: "If a religion is bad, then it follows that bad people should come out of it" Do you agree with me?

C2- Also we can say: " the people are bad because their religion is bad, and good because their religion is good."!!!

D- Your religion is taken from the teaching of the Bible and the Gospels, and it is the same teaching of the Catholic and the Protestant and the Amish,and the rest, with only one difference, and that you believe in Jesus as the son of God, as been claimed by Paul (not by Jesus), and you adhere to the commandment, and they believe in Jesus as God as it came in the formula that created by Constantene and the Bishops of Rome, and they use the word of Paul too, and the OT to support their claim (not by the word of Jesus), and they do not adhere to the commandment.
Claiming that Jesus is the son of God or God, should not effect on the teaching of Jesus of love and peace etc., but have a direct effect on the beliefs as who is Jesus, and your word and their came against God and Jesus word, and that is what matter most, and people will be judged for that before anything else.

E- You said: " I was raised Roman Catholic."
I hope you did not forget what you said before: "If a religion is good, then it follows that good people should come out of it. " And my logic answers in C1& C2.

"Raised Roman Catholic",
- that means your parents and grandparents etc.,are Catholic, but you find after that their belief and religion is WRONG, so others contacted you and show you the right religion, which you accepted without looking or studying other religions *. (you do not follow the good person in deciding to chose your religion, because there are many good people in all religions even in the Atheist, but you should decide by how good is the religion, and by using the LOGIC and FACTS only in your decision)

- also from what you stated and from the Logic point, we should believe that your parents etc. and all the others, while they following the wrong religion they are not good according to your believe (statement), (sorry, I said that only to prove that you are wrong in your judgment of things, because I said before "what a good person you are" and if a person as good as you are, then there must be good parents and grandparents behind him/her, that is most of the time, but not all the time.)

* The facts, and that can be proven by the history of mankind, that always there are few real leaders who make the rules and the decisions, followed by some smart one but not strong to help force the rulers, and the rest are the lost sheeps, the week who can accept what comes to them without question asked.
For example: Beside the prophet and their apostles, and Buddha and his philosophy etc., we have the kings and their powers, then someone who is stong comes from the lower rank, using created ideas and force it on everyone, Like Marks/Lennen or chairman Mow, or Hitler, or the Popes, or Paul (using the ROD), and the rest, and there is no lack in finding follower, right or wrong.

CanuckChick, try not to mix the RELIGION with the RELIGIOUS, and the FAITH with the FAITHFUL.
RELIGION & FAITH are written words in the books (stories, laws and examples) the books which we call holy books all teaches us the good things. The religions and the books do not lie or hate, and for sure they do not kill, but people who lie , hate and kill, you should know this fact.
Bush is a very religious man, but he lies and hate and kill, and what he does the religion has nothing to do with it, and so Saddam.
If a good man has a brother who is a killer, can we judge the good man by what his brother done, can we?. Will God send them both to hell?!!!.

YOU CANNOT JUDGE THE RELIGION BY ITS FOLLOWERS, BUT YOU CAN JUDGE A RELIGION IF IT IS RIGHT OR WRONG IN TWO WAYS.
1st- BY THE ACCURACY OF THE INFORMATION THAT HOLDS,
2nd- BY LOOKING AT THE OTHER RELIGIONS, BEFORE YOU DESIDE THAT THEY ARE WRONG WITHOUTH KNOWING THEIR TRUTH, OR BECAUSE YOUR LEADERS (leaders&followers) SAY SO.

In the judgment day before God, all the leaders of the world will not be able to help you, and you are alone responsible for everything, and remember that God's judgment is fair.

You are Good but do not make Jesus as the son of God, because Jesus has a Mother and brothers and sisters, and uncles and aunts, and etc., and he will not deny them, and that makes for God a family like the god of the Greeks and the Romans.

" MY MOTHER AND MY BROTHERS ARE THOSE WHO HEAR THE WORD OF GOD AND DO IT." (not Jesus word but God word)

God bless you.

Name: betty47 • Date: 04/30/07 3:24

A: The three religions did not come from one source. Two are a mixture of iron and clay. The new covenant is a hybrid of Torah verses which were contextually eliminated, plus Apostle writings, and Hellenistic demi-god philosophy, merged into one to create the new religion of a trinity. Qu'ran is also a hybrid of Torah with verses which were contextually eliminated, new covenant, Arabic stories, Mohammad and the various Arabic leader sayings merged, from a pantheon of idols, to a monotheistic religion.

I couldn't agree with this more, and perhaps it shows how great the Torah is which I regret most Christians and Muslims on this site seem to forget or deny. It's hard to improve upon the original.

Name: sam • Date: 04/30/07 22:35

A: Betty47,

The answer to your claim:
"I couldn't agree with this more, and perhaps it shows how great the Torah is which I regret most Christians and Muslims on this site seem to forget or deny. It's hard to improve upon the original. "
--------------------------------

I agree with you, it's hard to improve upon the original, since the original built mostly around family storie filled with wrong information., and the false stories about the creation cannot be improved, because it cannot be accepted by those who has some knowledge in the science of the 21st century.

The educated and the free minded Christians who read the Bible they will find out that the books which you call holy, is mixing the Holy word of God with the Un-holy word of man.
Bishop John S. Spong wrote the truth about it, and he wasn't afread, and he knows that might hurt many, but a honest person who believe in God should not hide the truth, and here what he said:
"THE BIBLE FULL OF CONTRADICTIONS AND ERRORS."
"THE GOSPELS CANNOT BE TRUSTED TO BE RELIABLE."

After reading the Bible and the Gospels for the first time just before few years, I did find that the Bishop was right, and what the Bishop and I found all the Muslims knows about it and that those books been altered, forged and changed during the years (that is a fact and was be proven).
You call the Bible a scientific book, but it is in facts not, because the information in it is wrong , and that led another Bishop blinded by his faith to create his formula:

THE SEARCH FOR THE TRUTH ABOUT GOD THROUGH HIS CREATION.
TWO ESTIMATES FOR THE CREATION OF EARTH: 1- Scientific. 2- Biblical
1 - SCIENTIFIC: " Based on extensive and detailed scientific evidence, geologists have determined the age of the earth.
Earth to be around 4.55 billion years (4.55x109 years). This age represents a compromise between the oldest known terrestrial minerals – small crystals of zircon from the Jack Hills of Western Australia – and astronomers' and planetologists' determinations of the age of the solar system based in part on radiometric age dating of meteorite material and lunar samples

2- BIBLICAL: " The genealogies listed in Genesis chapters five and eleven provide the age at which Adam and his descendants each begot the next generation in a successive ancestral line from Adam to Abraham. By determining where Abraham fits into history chronologically and by adding up the ages provided in Genesis chapters five and eleven, it becomes apparent that the Bible teaches the earth to be about 6,000 years old, give or take a few hundred years.

THE BISHOP FORMULA:
There are two SCRIPTUAL reasons. Both assume that the creation of Adam and Eve took place very close to the beginning of the earth. One of these scriptural reasons is that it is possible to use THE GENEALOGIES IN GENESIS to come up with an age for the earth. Bishop Ussher famously did that. I personally have a bible with Ussher's chronology in it. He calculated that creation took place in 4004 B.C. The other scriptural reason is the description of creation events as being a week, or rather six days, in length, and the belief that this week included most prehistoric events. The terms suggesting a week for creation occur not only in Genesis, but also in the Ten Commandments, so it is impossible to dismiss the idea as simply based on non-literal material from the beginning of Genesis.

Archbishop James Ussher of Armagh, Ireland, CALCULATED FROM THE BIBLE (augmented by some astronomy and numerology) THAT CREATION BEGAN ON OCTOBER 23, 4004 BC.
WOW!!!.. "it shows how great the Torah is, AND HOW ACCURATE"

Betty47, and Shlomo, I wonder if you agree with Mr. Bishop Ussher finding which came from the Bible?. please I would like to hear your answer.
Betty4, You said, "I couldn't agree with this more." that for Shlomo claims, "The three religions did not come from one source. Two are a mixture of iron and clay"
THE TWO ARE THE GOSPEL AND THE QURAN, that is what you mean. You did not accept them from the biginning, and your people claim that Jesus is a false prophet even with all His miracles, and even you been told of His coming in advace by prophecies in your Bible, and both of you refuse to accept the new messenger from God and His book even Jesus mentioned of His coming (THE HELPER -J16:7-15). You both try to keep your kindoms on earth regardless of what God said.
I agree with you that there are two books a mixture of iron and clay, and the two Bishops findings, leave no doubt that the two books, the Bible and the Gospel are those the ones, and they cannot be trusted. But that does not include the real words of Moses and the commandment and the true words of Jesus, because only those are the real one and came from GOD.

Muslims knows the facts, that the original Bible and Gospels changed by the years, and a lot of forgries done to them, Shlomo himself did make a mistake and told me the truth, "TORAH VERSES which were contextually ELIMINATED". FORGERIES
The New American Standard Bible (NASB) wrote: "...and CHANGES has been kept to a minimum...APDATES CONTINUES....changes in the text have been kept within the strict parameters set forth by the LOCKMAN FOUNDATION..." FPRGERIES.

The Holy book words cannot be changed or apdated, You cannot change or apdate the words and the message of God, that is how they changed Jesus from a prophet to God, by the time !!!.

The only Holy book which not even one word changed in 1400 years is the Quran. That is the truth but you preffer yours even you know that they connat be trusted and you know that their scientific informations are wrong. If anyone knows about any real scientific information in the Bible or the Gospels please bring them up.

You live in the 21st century, and you should understand the logic, and the difference between the true and the false. There is big difference between the 6000+ years & 4.7+billion years as the age of the earth, and the grass and other life on earth cannot be created before the sun.
It seems to me that you are holdind on the same mentality of those who lived many centuries ago.

Shalom, Salam, Peace.

Name: CanuckChick • Date: 05/01/07 14:22

A: Sam:

Re: The bible's creation account -

From the book "Life - How Did it Get Here"

The science of mathematical probabilty offers striking proof that the Genesis creation account must have come from a source with knowledge of the events. The account lists 10 major stages in this order:
1 - a beginning
2 - a primitive earth in darkness and enshrouded in heavy gases and water
3 - light
4 - an expanse or atmosphere
5 - large areas of dry land
6 - land plants
7 - sun, moon and stars discernible in the expanse, and seasons beginning
8 - sea monsters and flying creatures
9 - wild and tame beasts, mannals
10 - man

Science agrees that these stages occurred in this general order. What are the chances that the writer of Genesis just guessed this order? The same as if you picked at random the numbers 1 to 10 from a box, and drew them in consecutive order. The chances of doing this on your first try are 1 in 3,628,800. So, to say the writer just happened to list the foregoing events in the right order without getting the facts from somewhere is not realistic.

How long is a Genesis "Day"?
Many consider the word "day" used in Genesis chapter 1 to mean 24 hours. The Hebrew word "yohm" translated "day" can mean different lengths of time. Among the meanings possible, William Wilson's "Old Testament Word Studies" includes the following: "A day; it is frequently put for time in general, or for a long time; a whole period under consideration...Day is also put for a particular season or time when any extraordinary event happens." This last sentence appears to fit the creative "days", for certainly the were periods when extraordinary events were described as happening. It also allows for periods much longer than 24 hours.

Sam, you claim to believe that man was created very close to the beginning of the earth. This is merely an assumption. In fact, the bible does not tell us this. We cannot determine the age of the earth by using the old testament geneologies.

Re Bishop Spong - If I want to know about Islam, I will read the words of a Muslim.
If you want to know about Christianity, you should read the words of a Christian. Since, Mr. Spong does not follow the teachings of Christ, I don't view him as a Christian. The fact that he's a rather interesting old fellow, does not make him a credible representative of the Christian faith.

CC

Name: JohnD • Date: 05/01/07 17:18

A: In the first book of Adam and Eve the 24 hour "day" wasn't created until after they sinned. God made a covenant with Adam and the 24 day was created so he(Adam) could have a way to keep track of the time before the covenant was complete. God is timeless and infinite.

Name: roy • Date: 05/02/07 13:32

A: CC, kedvesem!
JW has some virtues that common muslim does from their heart for centuries. Their expansion system is similar as JW. Describing it in berief an let the other heard about it but not forcing up to their homes or cutting their way on streets.
Watching neighbours getting killed or tortured with various ways and not to act against it is a sin in our description as if you take part with the powerful. On the other hand muslims are against war and killings but unlike JW, once there is cruelty somewhere even to nonmuslims, they take action fight for God fight for justice they die and kill. It is more noble and respectable as God always asks for justice prevail.
These were basic reasons why islam spread so fast in recent past, although it is the fastest religion of today, people were living much more up to the values of the Quran in the past.
There have been and will be always some comunities in the world who lives the true Quran. You dont worry "how to understand any religon is true". Simple testing instruments are logic, wisdom, science, love, interest to human life. If a book contains all then you have no reason not to believe in it. If even one of the verse in its book is against above those then let that religion judged in history and search for a new one.
Sholomo betty47:
Muslims respect and has to believe in Torah is from God in order to be in islam. Quran was never a hybrid of Torah' rather complementing and completing it let alone corrections appended, as in case of misunderstanding of jesus father son case. It is unique in its way it is written and relevated to Mohammad pbuh. It hold truth for many archeological llfinds and future discoveries in earth as well as space. Such as Noah's arc and black holes and beyond it.

CC,
regarding time and man on earth you have nice and correct assumptions . I add those to your view:
Science has proven than time has a relativity with velocity. Time is an absolute zero at the speed of light. if one gets too close to light speed such as 99% ,the age of a twin brother will be 6 times younger than the other. Light also diverts from its path when passing by a black hole or large star, it makes difference at the time again.

The time was relatively slow at the beginning of creation earth. The creatures were living much longer and were very big in their bodies comparing today. The mankind were also more likely taller and bigger and some lived up to 1000 years . We believe as Noah and Adam lived such as.

The size of the animal /plant respective to their life expectancy are positively corrolated as todays animals elephant, whales, and large trunk trees of today. It was also proven at fossils.

The time of human history is calculated as late as only 7000 years back from today with mathematical theories set up from todays population. In 30 years the world population will be doubled.They take into account the famine, wars, pandemic etc.. which counts only 1,5 % of deaths.

Peace and happiness for all in truth filled futures.
Roy

Name: sam • Date: 05/03/07 15:01

A: CanuckChick, You mentioned

A- From the book "Life - How Did it Get Here"
------------------------------
The one who wrote that book try to make things fit even if did not, and try to make it convincing by using the names science and matimatical probability.

B- The science of mathematical probabilty offers striking proof that the Genesis creation account must have come from a source with knowledge of the events.
---------------------------------------
The stiking proof and the 10 magor stages which the writer of the book came with to prove the Bible is right, is just as wrong as the calculations of Bishop Uccher, and the knowledge of the billions of the believers from the first man on earth until the time of Galileo.

C- The account lists 10 major stages , 6&7 are the same as it came in Genesis:
6 - land plants
7 - sun, moon and stars discernible in the expanse, and seasons beginning
-----------------------------------------
I-n- 6 the land plants created first and before the sun , the moon and the stars. WHAT A SCIENTIFIC KNOWLRDGE!!!, THAT IS 100% WRONG.

You live in the 21st century and you should know better. You cannot change what came in the Bible if it is wrong, just because you want to prove it right.
The creation in Genesis:
First day.
1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
(the earth here was created in the first day, before the sun and the moon and the stars, those were created in the forth day-that is wrong)

1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. ( light is the source, without it the darkeness will took place, the evening and the mornig, day and night is the result of the moving of earth around it is axis. Those who wrote the book they did not know this fact.)
Second day.
1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. (Using the mornig and evening in all those days of creation prove that they are using the day of thae earth and nothing else, and the writer of that scientific book cannot change this fact to make it look right.)
Third day.
1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. (The light and day were created before the sun, and so the grass and fruit trees!!!.)
1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
Forth day.
1:16 And God made two great lights(THE SUN); the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light (THE MOON)to rule the night: he made the STARS also. (was the creation of the earth and the grass came before the creation of the sun and the stars?, is that against all what the scientific came with in the last three centuries? and you still believe in the story of creaton as it came in the old books?)
1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

C- Science agrees that these stages occurred in this general order. What are the chances that the writer of Genesis just guessed this order? The same as if you picked at random the numbers 1 to 10 from a box, and drew them in consecutive order. The chances of doing this on your first try are 1 in 3,628,800. So, to say the writer just happened to list the foregoing events in the right order without getting the facts from somewhere is not realistic.
---------------------------------------
Scienc-e- agree !!!, which science agree tha the earth was created before the sun and the stars?, and which science agree that can be any sort of life on earth without the sun?.
drew them in consecutive order!!!. He tried to make them in order that suit him, but still the order of 6 , the the earth and plants came before the sun and the stars in the order of 7 is completely wrong.

D- How long is a Genesis "Day"?
Many consider the word "day" used in Genesis chapter 1 to mean 24 hours. The Hebrew word "yohm" translated "day" can mean different lengths of time.
-----------------------------------
"Yohm" in Hebrew, and "Yom" in Arabic are the same , and have the same meaning as you discribed. But the Bible mentioned it several time during the creation story,
1:5 And the evening and the morning were the first day.
1:8 And the evening and the morning were the second day.
1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
1:23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
1:31 And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2:2 And on THE SEVENTH DAY (our week) the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
2:3 AND GOD blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he HAD RESTED (!!!-?) from all his work which God created and made.
The story of the creation all goes around the creation of the earth , which the man came at the end,and the seven days which the writer of Geneis mentioned is the 24/hr of our day, and the seven days are our week, and what prover that is the EVENING AND THE MORNING OF EVERY DAY, from sunrise to sunset (day), and from sunset to sunrise (night).

E- Among the meanings possible, William Wilson's "Old Testament Word Studies" includes the following: "A day; it is frequently put for time in general, or for a long time; a whole period under consideration...Day is also put for a particular season or time when any extraordinary event happens." This last sentence appears to fit the creative "days", for certainly the were periods when extraordinary events were described as happening. It also allows for periods much longer than 24 hours.
---------------------------------------------
Mr-.- Wilson trying his best, but he cannot change things to make it right, that is wrong. I do not understand why you always try to switch the truth?.
1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
(it is clear here that GOD called THE LIGHT "DAY", and THE DARKNESS "NIGHT", and the day and night wchich GOD mentioned is the day and night of the earth, and not about any other places, and so the morning and evening, and so the grass and so the herb and so the living things ans so the man.
And Mr. wilson said, "A day; it is frequently put for time in general, or for a long time".
When the "DAY", "YOHM or YOM" word mentioned by itself then might mean a day or a long time, But the "NIGHT", "LEIL" in Arabic (I don't know the Hebrew word for it) when mentioned it means only the time when the darkness fall on the earth, but Wilson forget that it was clear that the day and night in the story came together to present our one day and cannot be LONGER THAT 24 HOURS

F- Sam, you claim to believe that man was created very close to the beginning of the earth.
--------------------------------
My question, "Why you alway try to switch the truth? did i claim that?, did you understand what I did write exactly?
Here what I wrote, "THE BISHOP FORMULA:
There are two SCRIPTUAL reasons. Both assume that the creation of Adam and Eve took place very close to the beginning of the earth. One of these scriptural reasons is that it is possible to use THE GENEALOGIES IN GENESIS to come up with an age for the earth. Bishop Ussher famously did that. I personally have a bible with Ussher's chronology in it. He calculated that creation took place in 4004 B.C." Those are not mine but someone who analyzed Bishop Uccher work and his famous discovey of the time of the biginning of the creation of earth.

This is merely an assumption. In fact, the bible does not tell us this. We cannot determine the age of the earth by using the old testament geneologies. (But many besise Bishop Accher did the same calculation, their work were wrong as Mr. wilson stages were wrong too.

G- Re Bishop Spong - If I want to know about Islam, I will read the words of a Muslim.
The Muslim never doubted the word or the stories of the Quran, but many Christian has doubt in some word and some stories of the bible and the Gospels, the Bishop Spong wrote, "THE BIBLE FULL OF CONTRADICTIONS AND ERRORS....THE GOSPELS CANNOT BE TRUSTED TO BE RELIABLE."

From a CNN interview between Jimmy Carter & Larry King:
answering a call from Ottawa Canada, Mr. Carter said:
- in my own Baptist faith,
- I studied the Qur’an,
- I don’t believe ( about the stars falling)...I don’t see the possibility of it,
- the science proves that the earth not created flat....the science proves otherwise,
- and stars did not full from the sky like that.
Then Larry King added:
- since the world was flat.

Here the story of Omar Sherif :
All the time I questioned OMAR SHERIF seriousness in taken the Islam as his religion, like so many others, since he was born to a Christian family and named “Michael Maaloof”, and in the small town of Zahle (Lebanon), a town with the majority from Catholic (Maronite) faith.
That question was answered, when I received a recorded tape, and at the end part a few minutes from an interview with him, which took place in the studios of “Al Arabia “ TV network in Lebanon.
The interviewer was Jazell Khouri (Christian lady), and after many question about his works as an actor, suddenly she gave him this question.
J.K.- Did you became a Muslim because of your work in Egypt, or because of your marriage to Faten?, (Faten Hamama is well known actress, and she is a Muslim).
And here are his answers:
- how , ( the word in Arabic will means -how can you ‘say’ that-.)
- If I was not very sure, then I will not change.
-After all our GOD is one, not two GODS, and I believe in our GOD. I talk to HIM asking HIM the forgiveness, and HE guided me to the right track. And I became a Muslim.
- I attended Christian school, and at the age of eleven I went to confess, you know, I wanted to confess my wrongs, but the priest started to ask me embarrassing questions, you know, taking advantage of my confession.
- Then, about the baptism, they tell me that no one will enter the paradise without it . Then what about the Pigmys those short people who live in Africa, and the others who never heard of Christianity?.
- I am going to say something, at the age of fifteen I started to doubt in my religion.
- Are we all the sons of our GOD?. The Islam when you think about it, is right, and it is the third and the last religion in the believing in GOD, and the Islam’s believes in all the previous religions.
- you know, my family sent me to England to study?.
As soon as he finished his sentence, she quickly changed the subject.
Then the rest of the interview was about his works again..
After that interview, they show short clip for OMAR and his grandson visiting a church, then after they went to a mosque and prayed.
Now I know the truth about OMAR strong belief in the Islamic faith, the religion which he freely chooses, and of course after many years of search and study, and which he was going to tell, before he was cut off.
Jazell Khouri like me and the others, she was in doubt about him, and she thought that her question about his faith will put him in the corner, and specially because this program is transmitted to millions of viewers in Lebanon and all around the world; Christians and Muslims will see him and hear him giving the truth, and she hopped that Omar will tell every one listening that he is still a Christian after all, and we know that from her question “you became Muslim because...”. She never sought that he will tell that he changed his faith in this way and after a lot of research and study and of course a lot of thought “THE ISLAM WHEN ‘YOU THINK’ ABOUT IT , IS RIGHT”, otherwise she will never asked. It was a chock for her, and maybe to many others, but as for me it answered my long awaiting question.
Omar here, not only shows the truth, but much more than that, he showed the strong believes in what he chooses for himself as a religion, and he has the courage to deliver his message to everyone who has doubt, and after that to stand up firm to face the close by peoples from family, relatives, friends and supporters.

God bless you.

Name: CanuckChick • Date: 05/03/07 15:30

A: Roy, you said: "On the other hand muslims are against war and killings but unlike JW, once there is cruelty somewhere even to nonmuslims, they take action fight for God fight for justice they die and kill. It is more noble and respectable as God always asks for justice prevail."

I respect your view on this, and believe it is a noble thing to stand up for those being treated unjustly. However, it's a dangerous thing to trust any government to decide for us which causes are worthy of a war.

Take the most recent example - Mr. Bush had his people convinced that Iraq was an evil hotbed of "weapons of mass destruction". Many young men and women, in the name of defending their country, marched off to Iraq. At the beginning, anyone who spoke out against this war was labelled a traitor to their country. Now, most people agree that this is an unjust war - too late for the thousands of Americans (and their co-combatants) and Iraqis who have died as a result.

I believe that the world governments are heavily influenced by Satan, as is evidenced by John's words at 1 John 5:19: "We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one."

In order for Satan to tempt Jesus with the "kingdoms of the world", he must have had some claim to them. "Again the Devil took him along to an unusally high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory, and he said to him: ""All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me."" (Matthew 4:8, 9)

Re your statement: "The time was relatively slow at the beginning of creation earth. The creatures were living much longer and were very big in their bodies comparing today. The mankind were also more likely taller and bigger and some lived up to 1000 years . We believe as Noah and Adam lived such as."

I believe that before the flood in Noah's time, there was a vapor canopy that surrounded the earth. The Genesis account of creation tells how on the second "day" Jehovah made an expanse about the earth, and this expanse (called "Heaven") formed a divison between the waters below it, that is the oceans, and the waters above it. (Gen 1:6-8) The waters suspended above the expanse evidently remained there from the second "day" of creation until the Flood.

Some have suggested that prior to the Flood the waters above the expanse shielded out some of the harmful radiation and that, with the waters gone, cosmic radiation genetically harmful to man increased. This vapor canopy (or shield) may account for the longevity of those living up to Noah's time.

Incidentally, any change in radiation would have altered the rate of formation of radioactive carbon-14 to such an extent as to invalidate all radiocarbon dates prior to the Flood.

Looks like we may be running out of things to argue about, my friend. There may just be universal truths to be found in all belief systems. It's how these beliefs affect our daily lives that make all the difference.

I'm off into the Great Outdoors, to do some more gardening. The blisters from last week have mostly healed and I'm due for a new batch.
Later, my daughter is coming over, and we will sit in the sunshine and drink Margaritas.

Take care, my pet.

CC

Name: sam • Date: 05/04/07 13:16

A: Roy,

You quoted this, "The time of human history is calculated as late as only 7000 years back from today with mathematical theories set up from todays population. In 30 years the world population will be doubled.They take into account the famine, wars, pandemic etc.. which counts only 1,5 % of deaths."
-----------------------------------
Before- answering you, first, I would like to ask you what level of education you possess?, please let me know. Second, who is the smart mathematitian who did this wrong mathematical formula to come with this number.
Roy, If you live in 21st century , and if you have some scientific or historical knowledge , then you will not accept this calculation. please try to find the truth by reading the right books or you can search for information through the many sites on your computer which represent well established groop of scientists and historians, as NASA, the national Geographic, and the many encyclopedias (Oxford, Hammond, Britanica, etc).
Roy, here are some informations that might gave you an idea about this subject.
- No one knows for sure the time when the first human comes to earth.
- The Australian Aboriginals, and the American Indian they been there for around 25000+ years.
- 10,000 BC, earliest firm evidence of domesticated dogs (from a grave in Palestine)
- 8000 BC, First pottery is made in China.
- 8000 BC, Village of Jericho (on the west bank of the river Jordan) has a population of c.1000, and is surrounded by a stone wall with a fortified tower.
- 7,500 BC, Earliest-known African pottery is produced in South Sahara region.
- 7000 BC, Beans and squash are first cutivated in Peru , South America.
- 5200 BC, Farming starts in Spain.
Is that shows you that the calculation of 7000 years is totally wrong. and it is like the calcultion of Bishop Uccher' which he took from going to the Bible, and to set the date of creation of the earth, as 23 october 4004 BC, and many belived in his work!!!.

God bless you.

Name: Panluna • Date: 05/04/07 14:33

A: There is the archeological ruins in the former Yugoslavia which is considered the oldest site for a settlement.And there is a group of stone buildings in Scotland that goes way back.The dog depicted in the tomb paintings is the forerunner of the sight hound breeds.The desert breeds are the Saluki,the Grey hound and the Pharoh hound.I agree with Sam's previous post that the human race goes way back.The Sphinx in Egypt is approximately 10,000 years old.The Egyptians had a highly developed culture while much of Europe was inhabited by hunter-gatherers and Asia and the Middle East were populated by nomads.75,000 years ago a series of major volcanic eruptions in Indonesia nearly wiped out 98% of all lifeforms in the world.The fact that our species can be traced back several million years ago to "Lucy" using DNA testing proves we've been around for a long time.The first religion was nature based.The more complicated religions developed as people settled and cultures became more defined.Who was the first saviour?I have no idea!! Why do we need one? We always look up to strong leaders.And when they are no longer useful we eliminate them and someone else takes their place.This practise happens in the animal kingdom,too.It's true to nature.I hope the end of the world messiah doesn't show up for millions of years.In the meantime there will be plenty of them showing up to upset humanity.Who will come?Just beware! Look out for December 21,2012-- I HOPE the Mayan Doomsday prediction is wrong!!!!

Name: fabulous1 • Date: 05/05/07 0:14

A: Did anyone see that story on the end of the world with the Myan calendar? Apparently the world will end in 2012? Does anyone think this is true? No arugement-just wanted to know. The special did not mention anyone coming to save us? I thought that was strange-because about 1/2 the doomsday predictions have someone coming for us.

Name: Panluna • Date: 05/05/07 1:41

A: fabulous1,
I'll throw you a life preserver.Ha Ha Ha--just kidding!!

Name: CanuckChick • Date: 05/05/07 15:39

A: Hi Sam!

If you read the Genesis account carefully, you'll notice that it's written from the viewpoint of an observer on earth.

Notice that Stage 3 mentions the existence of "light". On the first "day" diffused light evidently penetrated the swaddling bands, but the sources of that light could not have been seen by an earthly observer because of the cloud layers still enveloping the earth. Now, on the fourth "day", things apparently changed. Now, had there been an earthly observer, he would be able to discern the sun, moon and stars, which would "serve as signs and for seasons and for days and years." (Gen 1:14)

By the close of the third creative peiod, three categories of land plants had been created. The DIFFUSED light would have become quite strong by then, ample for the process of photosynthesis so vital to green plants.

On the first day, the expression "Let light come to be" was used. Hebrew word used is "ohr", meaning light in a general sense. But on the fourth "day", the Hebrew word changes to "ma'ohr", which means the source of the light.

In short, there was enough light to sustain plants, but the actual source of the light was not discernible until the fourth day.

The fact that we are now in the seventh day, God's day of rest, which has continued from the creation of man (thousands of years) indicates that the "days" mentioned in the bible are not 24 hour "days".

Re Bishop Ussher - there are lots of crackpots running around loose, and he would appear to be one of them. He is ASSUMING that man was created very close to the beginning of the earth's creation. This is not scripturally correct. At best, his calculations might point to the number of years man has inhabited the earth - not the age of the earth itself.

Re Bishop Spong - the man's entitled to his opinion. The fact that he's a "bishop", doesn't make him right, or a shining example of Christianity. I

Re Omar Sharif - He's also entitled to his opinion, and to change his religious view. Free will, and all that. Doesn't make him right either.

As I've said before, I believe Christianity will have much to answer for on the last day. Many of the various "Christian" religions have misled mankind for centuries. Some, who have presumably read the bible, teach a trinity doctrine, discount Jesus' ransom sacrifice, claim the bible to be full of inaccuracies, and have killed those whose beliefs differ from their own. They are "twisting" the scriptures to serve their own ends.

"Furthermore, consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul according to the wisdom given him also wrote you, speaking about these things as he does also in all his letters. In them, however, are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unsteady are twisting, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction." (1Peter 3:15, 16)

CC

Name: CanuckChick • Date: 05/05/07 16:05

A: Panluna - It's generally agreed that the Sphinx was built around 4500 BCE, making it about 6500 years old.

Re Lucy - (again) I'm not aware that any DNA tests have been conducted on this partial skeleton, much less DNA tests that prove "her" age.

From Bill Bryson's "A Short History of Nearly Everything":
"Lucy was tiny - just three and a half feet tall. She could walk, though how well is a matter of some dispute. She was evidently a good climber, too. Much else is unknown. Her skull was amost entirely missing, so little could be said with confidene about her brain size, though skull fragments suggested it was small. Most books describe Lucy's skeleton as being 40 percent complete, though some put it closer to half, and one produced by the American Museum of Natural History describes Lucy as two-thirds complete. The BBC television series Ape Man actually called it "a complete skeleton," even while showing that it was anything but.

A human body has 206 bones, but many of these are repeated. If you have the left femur from a specimen, you don't need the right to know its dimensions. Strip out all the redundant bones, and the total you are left with is 120 - what is called a half skeleton. Even by this fairly accommodating standard, and even counting the slightest fragment as a full bone, Lucy constituted only 28 percent of a half skeleton ( and only about 20 percent of a full one).

In The Wisdom of the Bones, Alan Walker recounts how he once asked Johanson (Lucy's discoverer) how he had come up with a figure of 40 percent. Johanson breezily replied that he had discounted the 106 bones of the hands and feet - more than half the body's total, and a fairly important half, too, one would have thought, since Lucy's principal defining attribute was the use of those hands and feet to deal with a changing world. At all events, rather less is known about Lucy than is generally supposed. It isn't even actually known that she was female. Her sex is merely presumed from her diminutive size."

In my view, hardly a compelling case for a missing link theory.

Name: Shlomo • Date: 05/05/07 20:29

A: The reason a person believes there are contradictions and errors is because the person can not cipher the appropiate answer. There are no contradictions, if it appears to contradict, this can be readily resolved through proper study and depth of understanding. One of the problems for this alleged occurance of contradiction is the lay out of most bibles. The original Torah did not have chapter designations. There are pauses between sections for a reason and must be given for clarity before continuing.

Literal interpretation, non- supported, leads to misunderstanding which contributes to the idea of contradiction. To read the Torah as a novel also blinds one to the depth of the message and is another contributing factor. There are four depths to undersanding or interpretation [ Peshat, Remez, Drash, Sod ], normally as humans we go no further than the second step, so the appearance of contradiction becomes prevalent.

Name: roy • Date: 05/05/07 20:56

A: CC, szivem
I think same as you, we ran out of different ideas, besides we are in the same boat against sam and panluna! No more wounds, I want rest. I accept I hold all the truth parts of JW, and believe in Jehovah, do you dare to say the same as my claim; fellow muslim sister?
By the way the rest formula in the seventh day is wrong. God has ammended on Quran probably as you christians misinterpreted the bible, see verse below of that statement Q [50:38].
Szeretettel üdvözlöm lány.

Sam,
Muslims have no difficulty accepting that creation has started from earth. See the verses below.
As my education I am proud to say to everyone interested. 18 years of study is enough for a word in a blog to write? I mean I had MBA but has nothing to do with these subjects of my interest.
The date of the human history is claimed by two different Phd in different books, I encountered and wanted to share with you. They are not theologians but devoted muslim scientists. The calculations are based on firm theory, and can be tackled of course, but they are not tossed in for cracking over a soda water.

For center of creation please see below;

41:9] Say, "You disbelieve in the One who created the earth in two days, and you set up idols to rank with Him, though He is Lord of the universe.”
[41:10] He placed on it stabilizers (mountains), made it productive, and He calculated its provisions in four days, to satisfy the needs of all its inhabitants”
[41:11] THEN HE TURNED TO THE SKY, WHEN İT WAS STİLL GAS, AND SAİD TO İT, and to the earth, "Come into existence, willingly or unwillingly." They said, "We come willingly."
[41:12] Thus, He completed the seven universes in two days, and set up the laws for every universe. And we adorned the lowest universe with lamps, and placed guards around it. Such is the design of the Almighty, the Omniscient.
[50:38] We have created the heavens and the earth, and everything between them in six days, and NO FATİGUE TOUCHED US.

I didnt get what was between Jimy Carter and Lary King? Do you say J.Carter was going to say He has been fascinated by İslam?

Panluna,
Is there any evidence that Lucy was anchestor of any human? There are hundreds of scientists claim that the proofs are very weak to claim profoundly, any african or american fossil yet to be proven as human anchestor of evolution or middle creature in between.

Name: sam • Date: 05/06/07 2:50

A: fabulous1 •

You asked:
"Did anyone see that story on the end of the world with the Myan calendar? Apparently the world will end in 2012? Does anyone think this is true? No arugement-just wanted to know. "
---------------------------------
The answer is:
Those who claim that they know the END, they suppose to know the BIGINNING.
If you are a Christian or Muslim you should not believe in what the people guesses, during the history many people came with different guess about the END, (the future), the Mayan and many others around the world predicted different dates for the END, and none came to be true, because if those people knows the END, they suppose to know the BIGINNING, because the biginning is already there and happen, but they do not know anything about it, so, how can they guess the future while they do not know the past and the present?.

If you are a believer in God, then you sould listen to God' words which came to us by His messengers. Jesus said:

"HEAVEN AND EARTH WILL PASS AWAY, BUT MY WORDS (The word that came to Him from God) WILL NOT PASS AWAY.
BUT OF THAT DAY (THE END) AND HOUR NO ONE KNOWS,
NOT EVEN THE ANGELS OF HEAVEN,
NOR THE SON (Jesus),
BUT THE FATHER ALONE (God alone knows the END)." M-24:35/36

And the messages that came in the Quran from God after six hundred years was an answer to people who asked the same question as yours. There are many verses and all agree to what Jesus said, and here are those verses:

"INDEED, GOD ALONE HAS KNOWLEDGE OF THE HOUR (God alone knows the END).."Q-31:34

"TO HIM ALONE IS ATTRIBUTED KNOWLEDGE OF THE HOUR..." Q-41:47 (only God knows about the END)

"AND BLESSED IS HE (GOD) TO WHOM BELONGS THE DOMINION OF THE HEAVENS AND EARTH AND WHATEVER IS BETWEEN THEM AND WITH WHOM IS KNOWLEDGE OF THE HOUR (the END) AND TO WHOM YOU WILL BE RETURNED" Q-43:85. (God knows the hour of the END, and the resurrection)

"...UNQUESTIONABLY, THE PROMISE OF GOD IS TRUTH, BUT MOST OF THEM DO NOT KNOW." Q- 10:55 (that is true)

"...NONE IN THE HEAVENS AND EARTH KNOWS THE UNSEEN (as the future) EXCEPT GOD, AND THEY DO NOT PERCEIVE WHEN THEY WILL BE RESURRECTED." (at the END). Q-27:65 (that is the truth)

"AND THEY SAY, "WHEN IS THIS PRONISE, IF YOU SHOULD BE TRUTHFUL?" (people asking the Prophet Muhammad)
SAY, " THE KNOWLEDGE IS ONLY WITH GOD, AND I AM ONLY A CLEAR WORNER." Q-67:25/26 (and God gave the prophet the right answer. God told the prophet about His mission)

"AND WE HAVE NOT SENT YOU, (O MUHAMMAD), EXCEPT AS A BRINGER OF GOOD TIDINGS AND A WARNER. " Q25:56

"O PROPHET, INDEED WE HAVE SENT YOU AS A WITNESS AND A BRINGER OF GOOD TIDING AND A WARNER." Q-33:45

"MUHAMMAD IS NOT BUT A MESSENGER. OTHER MESSENGERS HAVE PASSED ON BEFORE HIM." Q-3:144
(The mission of the prophet was given to Him by God, and the Prophet never declare himsel anything but as a servant and a messenger)
This is an advice and a worning from God to His messenger, the prophet:

"YOUR LORD IS MOST KNOWING OF YOU. IF HE WILLS, HE WILL HAVE MERCY UPON YOU; OR IF HE WILLS, HE WILL PUNISH YOU. AND WE HAVE NOT SENT YOU, (O MUHAMMAD), OVER THEM AS A MANAGER." Q-17:54

When Jesus dies He was wraped with plain cloth and buried in a simple cave like everyone else, a tomb (that is what they find after 2000 years) with no marble or gold. The prophet Muhammad, was wraped with a simple cloth, and burried in the ground, not in a tomb made of marble and gold. If Muhammed wanted to be like the other kings of Persia or Roma he could ask for it and receive it, but He knows that He is like everyone else, and He will be punished at the END.

"GOD - THERE IS NO DEITY EXCEPT HIM, THE EVER-LIVING, THE SUSTAINER OF ALL EXISTENCE. NEITHER DROWSINESS OVERTAKES HIM NOR SLEEP. TO HIM BELONGS WHATEVER IS IN THE HEAVENS AND WHATEVER IS ON EARTH. WHO IS IT THAT CAN INTERCEDE WITH HIM EXCEPT BY HIS PERMISSION? HE KNOWS WHAT IS PRESENTLY BEFORE THEM AND WHAT WILL BE AFTER THEM (the future) , AND THEY ENCOMPASS NOT A THING OF HIS KNOWLEDGE EXCEPT FOR WHAT HE WILLS. HIS THRONE EXTENDS OVER THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH, AND THEIR PRESERVATION TIRES HIM NOT. AND HE IS THE MOST HIGH, THE MOST GREAT."Q- 2:255

"HERE YOU ARE-THOSE WHO HAVE ARGUED ABOUT THAT OF WHICH YOU HAVE SOME KNOWLED, BUT WHY DO YOU ARGUE ABOUT THAT OF WHICH YOU HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE? AND GOD KNOWS, WHILE YOU KNOW NOT." Q-3:66

"HE IS KNOWER OF THE UNSEEN, AND HE DOES NOT DISCLOSE HIS KNOWLEDGE OF THE UNSEEN TO ANYONE." Q-72:26

"AND MOST OF THEM FOLLOW NOT EXCEPT ASSUMPTION. INDEED, ASSUMPTION AVAILS NOT AGAINST THE TRUTH AT ALL. INDEED, GOD IS KNOWING OF WHAT THEY DO." Q-10:36

"COMPETITION IN WORDLY INCREASE DIVERT YOU
UNTIL YOU VISIT THE GRAVEYARDS.
NO! YOU ARE GOING TO KNOW.
THEN, NO! YOU ARE GOING TO KNOW.
NO! IF YOU ONLY KNEW WITH KNOWLEDGE OF CERTAINLY
YOU WILL SURELY SEE THE HELLFIRE.
THEN YOU WILL SURELY SEE IT WITH THE EYE OF CERTAINLY.
THEN YOU WILL SURELY BE ASKED THAT DAY ABOUT PLEASURE."
Q-102:1-8

Again I will repeat this: "Those who claim that they know the END, they suppose to know the BIGINNING. "
You might ask WHY, and that is because who know the BIGINNING surely knows the END. And God gave us in the Quran some information, and He told us this:

"AND YOU WILL SURELY KNOW THE TRUTH OF ITS INFORMATION AFTER TIME. Q-38:88
And the following some of the information that came in the Quran:

"HAVE THOSE WHO DISBELIEVED NOT CONSIDERED THAT THE HEAVEN AND EARTH WERE A JOINED ENTITY, AND WE SEPARATE THEM."Q-21:30
(the big bang theory today)

"AND THE HEAVEN WE CONSTRUCTED WITH STRENGTH AND INDEED WE ARE ITS EXPANDER." Q-51:47
(the expanding universe theory, which been proven today)

"AND YOU SEE THE MOUNTAINS, THINKING THEM STATIONARY, WHILE THEY ARE PASSING AS PASSING OF CLOUDS." Q-27:88
( the earth with mountains on it are moving, the earth is rotating around its axis in a speed of 1600KM/H. at the time of all the prophet and until Galileo came , the people believed that the earth is stationary and the center of the everything and it is flat land)

"AND IT IS HE WHO CREATED THE NIGHT AND THE DAY AND THE SUN AND THE MOON; ALL HEAVENLY BODIES, IN AN ORBIT ARE SWIMMING." Q-21:33
(the people in the past they do not know this fact, they do not know about the stars or the galaxies, but thanks to scientific people who found the truth "AFTER TIME". We know today that the earth and the sun and the moon, and the other planets and the stars all are swimming in the space and moving in an ORBIT around the center of our galaxy, and it is the same in every galaxy in the universe, "ALL HEAVENLY BODIES, IN AN ORBIT ARE SWIMMING".
If the information which came in the Quran are correct and true, then no doubt that these information came from the ONE who knows His creation, and that HE is the CREATOR, and that is GOD.
Note: There are many examples, but I think these few will give a good example as to the authenticity of the Quran.

Those people who claim that they know the END, they suppose to know the BIGINNING, but they do not.

Fabulous1, I hope that what i brought here, from the words of Jesus and the words of the Quran is the right answer to your question.

Godd bless you.

Name: sam • Date: 05/06/07 14:45

A: Dear Roy,

My question about your eduction, wasn't meant what degree you have or how many year you spent in university, but about the real scientific knowledge, which the scientists come with after years of hard work using the most sophesticated instruments and using the logic, fact and reality . Toda's knowledge far more advanced and better that the knowledge of the people of few decades ago, even they were very educated for their time, and every day there are more discoveries in every field, but even today there are many high educated people who believe in things that cannot be logically or scientifically axcepted, just because it come in their old books, and after all they call themselves scientists!!!.

Galileo, an Italian physicist, mathematician, astronomer, and philosopher, was put under house arrest, by the highly educated people (pope and bishop) of the church in Rome. Do you think they were right and he is wrong?.

In 1610, Galileo published an account of his telescopic observations of the moons of Jupiter, using this observation to argue in favor of the sun-centered, Copernican theory of the universe against the dominant earth-centered Ptolemaic and Aristotelian theories.
In 1612, opposition arose to the Sun-centered solar system which Galileo supported. In 1614, from the pulpit of Santa Maria Novella, Father Tommaso Caccini (1574–1648) denounced Galileo's opinions on the motion of the Earth, judging them dangerous and close to heresy.
Galileo is often referred to as the "father of modern astronomy," as the "father of modern physics", and as the "father of science". He is a great scientist who open the door for more discoveries and he will be always remebered as such. His work and observation was limited to the earth motion, but today's work went further more towards billions of galaxies in the tremondous universe. Today, 2nd grade children know about the motions of the earth and alot about the stars more that Galileo knows at his time.

Roy, you said:
A- Muslims have no difficulty accepting that creation has started from earth. See the verses below.
--------------------------------------
People who believe that the earth is center of the world are wrong, and saying the creation started from the earth is wrong too. Here how the creation began as the Quran told us:
21:30 Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heaven and earth were a joined entity, and WE separate them. (Big bang theory today)
51:47 And the heaven WE constructed with strength and indeed WE ARE its expander. (today proven theory of the expanding universe)
29:19 Have you considered how GOD begins creation and then repeated it. (thare are many creation out there in God's world)
65:12 It is GOD who created SEVEN HEAVENS AND OF THE EARTH, LIKE OF THEM. (There are other worlds out there like ours, and we are not alone)

The verses 41:9-12 & 50:38 mentioning the six day creation, but God did not say that those are in our day term 24hr day (as been written in the bible, when it say "And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day."). God, HE did not create the earth while residing on the earth, andGod message did not come from the earth, but from HIS throne which is in place far beyond what we can imagine.
The 24h day on earth is not the same on the other planets, and God days are not like ours. And God in His messages to us just gave us an examples as the 1000years/day or the 50000years/day, His messages sent to people who hardly have any knowledge about the world that they live in, and even today's knowledge it didnot arrive to the full knowledge of knowing everything in the universe that we are a part of.

"Say, "If the sea were ink for writing the words of My LORD, the sea would be exhausted before the words of My LORD were exhausted, even if We brought the like of it as supplement." Q-18:109
God revealed to us some knowledge about the creation, but we have no right to question Him or ask for more information so we can believe in Him, who we think we are. can we create a fly and just a fly?

The date of the human history is claimed by two different Phd in different books, I encountered and wanted to share with you.
------------------------------------------------
Phd-,- in what subject?. Are those the "devoted muslim scientists" who wrote books about the creation of the earth and the people on it wich happen only before 7 thousand years!!!. What about the discoveries that came from hard work of thousand of scientists around the world and their discoveries than man lived on earth from much longer time?. What about the fossils of trees and animals and insects which been found on earth, and they were on earth before millions of years?.

The calculations are based on firm theory, and can be tackled of course, but they are not tossed in for cracking over a soda water.
------------------------------------
Their calculations are wrong, that is from the point of today's real knowledge and from the LOGIC point of view.
Their work is similar to the work of the people of the chuches, and the people who follow them and accept their work are missled for sure.
Please can you bring some of their firm theory so a can read.
How I can share with you if No names and no words from the books mentioned, except for Phd and firm theory and Muslim scientists.

God bless you.

Name: Panluna • Date: 05/06/07 15:17

A: Hi to all,
Have any of you read a book titled THE DEVIL'S APOCRYPHA by John A.De Vito?It's a real shocker!! Lazarus whom Jesus raised from the dead is still alive and our planet will be invaded by astral-aliens after the first two prophecies are fulfilled.The book was very interesting and there is more to the story.....It's a really good read.

Name: Panluna • Date: 05/06/07 15:39

A: Hi CanuckChick,
I watched two shows onTVand I believe they were Nova programs .One was on genetics and "LUCY"was tested for DNA.They found a marker that matched a man in the Middle East who's bloodline remained pure.Also she could have been the forerunner of the Pygmies probably the oldest race of humans(my theory).Also there is another program about the restoration of the Sphinx and digging through the layers of sand accumulated around it during excavation they figured it was much older than previously thought.There might be hidden chambers under it which they haven't accessed.The ancient Egyptians knew about Atlantis maybe they'll get that one solved.It's sad to think of all those scrolls that were destroyed when the library of Alexandria was destroyed.How much history did we lose?

Name: CanuckChick • Date: 05/06/07 18:29

A: Panluna: You might want to check out this link--

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/secr-ets/case_firsthuman/chat.html

Below- are excerpts from this interview with Donald Johanson. (Caps are mine)

Dr. Johanson: We never really stated that Lucy was a direct link to homo sapiens because the human family tree has many different branches. So, we can't be certain, that she herself was actually on the direct line. WE ARE CERTAIN THAT HER BONES ARE SO DIFFERENT FROM OTHER EARLY HUMANS, OR HUMAN ANCESTORS THAT SHE WAS A DISTINCTIVE AND DIFFERENT SPECIES.

Dr. Johanson: The oldest DNA we have from a human ancestor is from a Neanderthal that takes us back to about 100,000 years. Unfortunately, the process of fossilization destroys all of the DNA evidence. So, WE NOT NOT HAVE ANY DNA FROM EARLY HUMAN ANCESTORS LIKE LUCY.

Dr. Johanson: We can always say that any fossil we find had ancestors, but it is very difficult to tell if they left descendants. However, we have HYPOTHESIZED that Lucy's species did give rise to later species. Whether those species in turn gave rise to modern humans, is still for many people an open question.

Dr. Johanson: Thinking back to November 1974, I still feel the sense of tremendous excitement realizing that I had found parts of a skeleton dating to more than 3 million years. I think that moment of excitement for me may never be repeated in my life. But the real reward of finding Lucy was when I realized she was a new species of human ancestor that allowed us to better understand the human family tree. (????????)

Mags1745: Does the Ramipithicus theory still stand about being the missing link?

Dr. Johanson: Ramipithicus is now considered to be an ancestor to modern orangutans, the early suggestion in the 1960s that Ramipithicus was a link between apes and humans was based on an erroneous reconstruction of the upper jaw. Now that more complete specimens have been found in Pakistan, it is clear from the shape of the face, especially that IT REPRESENTS AN ANCIENT ANCESTOR TO MODERN ORANGUTANS.

Dr. Johanson: Well ... I'll have to talk to Starbucks. ... Just joking! Java man is now known as Homo Erectus, it was found initially in the late 1800s by a Dutchman. What is most interesting about Java man today, is first of all, it has been dated to well over a million years. Suggesting that our ancestors left Africa, much earlier than previously thought and secondly, some fossils of this species have been found in relatively recent sediments. ... Perhaps only 30,000 years ago. Suggesting that Java man was a separate independent line in the far East THAT DID NOT EVOLVE INTO MODERN HUMANS.

Dr. Johanson: Very, very good question! In all of the research and excavation that we have conducted in Ethiopia.. we have found the evidence of stone tools ... in the geological deposits that have yielded Lucy and other members of her species. However, when we look at MODERN CHIMPS, we see that they sometimes used perishable objects like wood, or blades of grass to extract termites from termite mounds. I BELIEVE LUCY AND HER SPECIES WOULD HAVE USED RUDIMENTARY TOOLS SUCH AS THESE. The earliest evidence for our ancestors making and using stone tools ... is about two and a half million years ago. This appears to be associated with the earliest evidence for our own genus ... "Homo".

Again, hardly a compelling case for a "missing link".
On the one hand he calls Lucy a "distinctive and different species" from humans and their ancestors, and then goes on to call her "a new species of human ancestor".

The man is clearly grasping at straws. Basically, he found some monkey bones, and is attempting to pass them off as the "missing link".

Are you aware that it is very difficult for scientists to obtain funding,
unless they publish. (something.....anything!)

Are you aware that... "The total world archive of hominid and early human bones" could fit "into the back of a pickup truck." (Bill Bryson)

Draw your own conclusions, Panluna.

CC

Name: roy • Date: 05/07/07 23:33

A: Dear Sam,

Only these two Quran ayats are enough believing in God has started creation of universe from earth, if not at same moment with earth.

[41:10] He placed on it stabilizers (mountains), made it productive, and He calculated its provisions in four days, to satisfy the needs of all its inhabitants”

[41:11] THEN HE TURNED TO THE SKY, WHEN IT WAS STILL GAS, AND SAID TO IT, and to the earth, "Come into existence, willingly or unwillingly." They said, "We come willingly."

If not enough take a look at below verse:

[2:29] He is the One who created for you everything on earth, THEN TURNED TO THE SKY AND PERFECTED SEVEN UNIVERSES THEREIN, and He is fully aware of all things.

Maybe earth is focal reason of existence. Plus as I didnt know in Bible the creation has been reinstated as CC put it forward. Manipulate-free parts of Bible, maybe? The famous Big Bang theory is suitable to this approach.

2 - a primitive earth in darkness and enshrouded in heavy gases and water
3 - light
4 - an expanse or atmosphere
5 - large areas of dry land
6 - land plants
7 - sun, moon and stars discernible in the expanse, and seasons beginning

21:30 ,51:47 ,29:19 , 65:12 Has no contradiction to earthly start or show any sequence to which space object created first.

The main reason of all universe to be created is human. All are in our service;

[16:12] And He commits, in your service, the night and the day, as well as the sun and the moon. Also, the stars are committed by His command. These are (sufficient) proofs for people who understand.

Also see these verses, putting creation of earth first then talking about light and night.

[6:1] Praise be to GOD, who created the heavens and the earth, and made the darkness and the light. Yet, those who disbelieve in their Lord continue to deviate.
[13:2] GOD is the One who raised the heavens without pillars that you can see, then assumed all authority. He committed the sun and the moon, each running (in its orbit) for a predetermined period. He controls all things, and explains the revelations, that you may attain certainty about meeting your Lord.
[13:3] He is the One who constructed the earth and placed on it mountains and rivers. And from the different kinds of fruits, He made them into pairs - males and females. The night overtakes the day. These are solid proofs for people who think.

This is surprising a christian defending creation has started from earth, exactly same way a muslim should put it, but as a muslim you claim opposit and how unscientific it is.

The time variation as a ~ period description rather than a 24 day is clearly described in Quran. The day as to God 1000 years of what you count. (At the destiny chapter the holy kadir night ) The records of 1000 years events accends to God in one night. At another place ; "one day is 50.000 years of your calendar "is all stated in Quran. As well as people of Kahf is recorded to stay in the cave 300 years and 310 as a lunar calendar all exist in Quran.

This is again surprising a christian defending a day may be longer than 24 hours, exactly same way a muslim should put it, but as a muslim you claim opposit and how unscientific it is to have day before sun was created.

I wrote down the names of the muslim scientists.
Chemistry/ Prof Dr. Osman Cakmak ~ Soyut Dunyalar Gercek Uzaylilar
Law /Prof Dr. Hüseyin Hatemi ~ Duanin anlami
Theology, Philosophy/ Dr. Caner Taslaman ~ Big bang ve Tanri http://www.canertaslaman.com/english/
http://www.bigbang.gen.tr/

I learnt also something from Prof. Osman Cakmak. He says the real magnetic pole is 1290 km South of arctic at Canada Ellef Ringnes islands. South pole at Adelie land. The real equador line passes right on Mecca.
The vertical lines according to tropic of cancer & tropic of capricorn also as calculated to
pass from Mecca. The cross may also drawn from Norh America to Australia versus North east Asia to South America shows meet at Mecca, most likely Kabaa and Arafat plain, the places where Muslims believe Adam pbuh has been landed from heavens.
According to his theory the two far edges of equador line where Mecca was a 0 degree line; the Bermuda and Japanese sea. The two area are famous with its time lapses, misterious ship and plane losses.

I know about Galilei, and have deep sympathy of his faith. However neither your assumptions nor mine does not suit what you gave as example. We are here in Turkiye free to discuss any topic about Quran without fear of heretic punishment unlike many arab countries. They can promote other religions as well, each year we tolerance countless homely Hindu religious prophets here, some space religion revelation women we produced, as well as money crazed soul savers in luxurious sessions. Bearing the nonsence faith followers at sight,we have some benefits too. It is fairly free environment where people can reveal all reality as well as such rubbish.Of course majority keeps the common sense and we are one of the best islamic researcher states in the world, if not educate the most correct comprehending scholars up to Quranic standards.

Man lived on earth no more than 7500 years or so. It was not proven in even a case that the instrument or building has been found in latter history by clever being. Man was created in a special way by God at relatively recent history of earth.

Man carry same elements of dust, mud and earth in his body, lack of any will cause serious health problems:

[15:26] We created the human being from aged mud, like the potter's clay.
[35:11] GOD created you from dust, then from a tiny drop, then He causes you to reproduce through your spouses. No female becomes pregnant, nor gives birth, without His knowledge. No one survives for a long life, and no one's life is snapped short, except in accordance with a pre-existing record. This is easy for GOD.

They also say the carbon test is not trustable after certain limit such as 1600 years. There may be some calculation mistake in radioactive diversion, due to changes energy in matter .
Fossils of trees and animals has nothing to do with human history. It may be created or sent to earth much much earlier. We have no debate about them.They found millions years old animals, but they cant find millions years old instruments or tools. Human being is the focal point, in classes, books teach us the known history goes up to 7500 and the writing has been invented by man only in 4000 BC. like ' how fire and wheel were found ' theories. Isn't it strange enough for you?

[6:98] He initiated you from one person, and decided your path, as well as your final destiny. We thus clarify the revelations for people who understand.

I have to repeat the theory I read from Prof Dr. Hüseyin Hatemi of above again:
Prophet Adam and Eve, in September 5594 BC. According to their theory, Life has been developing till the era while some human-like animals were on the planet. God sent Adam and Eve to the world, their children got married to the already living species, has made up different races and made todays societies. It may also solve positively believers problem that in this case there was no “incest “ between the children, took place at the early stages of human kind.
1000 years after Prophet Adam, Prophet Noah has survived the big flood which was for punishment of those with idolatries.
Around 1600 BC. Prophet Abraham was sent, his sons Isiac, Eshmail and several prophets from their generations followed him. Abraham has built the Sacred Kaba at Mecca today.
1300-1230 BC. ~the era of Prophet Moses.
More than 1000 years later Prophet Jesus Christ has arrived.
At year of 569 AD. Prophet Mohammed was born.

Stephen Hawking another scientist's theory is not scientific enough for you? He claims in less than 40 years the human population will be doubled, the resourses will not be enough to sustain such increase. Yearly increase is 1.9 %. People will be over crowded causing live next to one another. The electric usage will be so immense that the inhabitants will put light on as a stove around the globe.

Please also see related verses to creation:
[40:57] The creation of the heavens and the earth is even more awesome than the creation of the human being, but most people do not know.
[18:7] We have adorned everything on earth, in order to test them, and thus distinguish those among them who work righteousness
[42:29] Among His proofs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the creatures He spreads in them. He is able to summon them, when He wills.
[45:3] The heavens and the earth are full of proofs for the believers.
[45:4] Also in your creation, and the creation of all the animals, there are proofs for people who are certain.
[55:5] The sun and the moon are perfectly calculated.

What was the nonbeliver Jimmy Carter conversation about fall of stars? Please tell more clearly and draw a conclusion.

[53:1] As the stars fell away.
[81:1] When the sun is rolled.
[81:2] The stars are crashed into each other.

Heavy studies makes novel understanding of holy facts for whom God willed / who wishes.

Salam

Name: roy • Date: 05/08/07 15:36

A: Our discussion about creation is so important. They make so many policies related to everyday life accordingly, if not change the political regime of a country, or let patients and needy to die. I found this NYTimes article below and wanted to share with you.

A SPLIT EMERGES AS CONSERVATIVES DISCUSS DARWIN

For some conservatives, accepting Darwin undercuts religious faith and produces an amoral, materialistic worldview that easily embraces abortion, embryonic stem cell research and other practices they abhor. As an alternative to Darwin, many advocate intelligent design, which holds that life is so intricately organized that only an intelligent power could have created it.

Yet it is that very embrace of intelligent design — not to mention creationism, which takes a literal view of the Bible’s Book of Genesis — that has led conservative opponents to speak out for fear their ideology will be branded as out of touch and anti-science.

Some of these thinkers have gone one step further, arguing that Darwin’s scientific theories about the evolution of species can be applied to today’s patterns of human behavior, and that natural selection can provide support for many bedrock conservative ideas, like traditional social roles for men and women, free-market capitalism and governmental checks and balances.

The arguments have played out in recent books, magazine articles and blogs, as well as at a conference on Thursday at the American Enterprise Institute in Washington. There Mr. Arnhart was grouped with John Derbyshire, a contributing editor at National Review, against John G. West and George Gilder, who both are associated with the Discovery Institute, which advocates intelligent design.

The technocrats, wanted to grab control from “ordinary citizens and their elected representatives” so that they alone could make decisions over “controversial issues such as sex education, partial-birth abortion, euthanasia, embryonic stem cell research and global warming.”

Advances in biotechnology — and pressure on elected Republicans to curb them — are partly responsible for the surge of interest in linking evolutionary and political theory, said those in the thick of the debate.

The fledgling field of evolutionary psychology also spurred some conservatives to invoke Darwinism in the 1990s. In “The Moral Sense” (1993), followed by “The Marriage Problem: How Our Culture Has Weakened Families” (2002), James Q. Wilson used evolution to explain the genesis of morality and to support traditional family and sex roles. Conservative thinkers from Francis Fukuyama to Richard Pipes have drawn on evolutionary psychology to support ideas like a natural human desire for private property and a biological basis for morality.

Debates over Darwinism became more pointed in 2005, however, as school districts considered teaching intelligent design, and President Bush stated that it should be taught along with evolution. The conservative commentator Charles Krauthammer wrote in Time magazine that to teach intelligent design “as science is to encourage the supercilious caricature of America as a nation in the thrall of a religious authority.” George F. Will wrote that Kansas school board officials who favored intelligent design were “the kind of conservatives who make conservatism repulsive to temperate people.”

Mr. Arnhart, in his 2005 book, “Darwinian Conservatism,” tackled the issue of conservatism’s compatibility with evolutionary theory head on, saying Darwinists and conservatives share a similar view of human beings: they are imperfect; they have organized in male-dominated hierarchies; they have a natural instinct for accumulation and power; and their moral thought has evolved over time.

While Darwinism does not resolve specific policy debates, Mr. Arnhart said in an interview on Thursday, it can provide overarching guidelines. Policies that are in tune with human nature, for example, like a male military or traditional social and sex roles, he said, are more likely to succeed. He added that “moral sympathy for the suffering of fellow human beings” allows for aid to the poor, weak and ill.

Skeptics of Darwinism like William F. Buckley, Mr. West and Mr. Gilder also object. The notion that “the whole universe contains no intelligence,” Mr. Gilder said at Thursday’s conference, is perpetuated by “Darwinian storm troopers.”

“Both Nazism and communism were inspired by Darwinism,” he continued. “Why conservatives should toady to these storm troopers is beyond me.”

It is true that political interpretations of Darwinism have turned out to be quite pliable. Victorian-era social Darwinists like Herbert Spencer adopted evolutionary theory to justify colonialism and imperialism, opposition to labor unions and the withdrawal of aid to the sick and needy. Francis Galton based his “science” of eugenics on it. Arguing that cooperation was actually what enabled the species to survive, Pyotr Kropotkin used it to justify anarchism.

Karl Marx wrote that “Darwin’s book is very important and serves me as a basis in natural science for the class struggle in history.” Woodrow Wilson declared, “Living political constitutions must be Darwinian in structure and in practice.”

More recently the bioethicist and animal rights activist Peter Singer’s “Darwinian Left: Politics, Evolution, and Cooperation” (1999) urged people to reject the notion that there is a “fundamental difference in kind between human beings and nonhuman animals.”

Mr. West agreed that “conservatives who are discomfited by the continuing debate over Darwin’s theory need to understand that it is not about to go away”; that it “fundamentally challenges the traditional Western understanding of human nature and the universe.”

Name: sam • Date: 05/08/07 23:18

A: Dear Roy,

I am going to answer few point which came in your post of (05-07-07) later on, I hope tomorow, but before that I would like to know if you read the Quran in Arabic (your first Language) or in English (translation) ?

Here are two translations for the same verse. I did number the words which are the subject of questioning.

[2:29] He is the One who created for you everything on earth,
THEN "TURNED"(1) TO THE SKY (2) AND PERFECTED SEVEN UNIVERSES (3)
THEREIN, and He is fully aware of all things.
--------
2:29 It is He who created for you all of that which is on earth.
THEN HE "DIRECTED"(4) HIMSELF TO THE HEAVEN (5), AND MADE THEM SEVEN HEAVENS (6),
and He is knowing of all things.
Besides there ary many wrong translations which can be found easely by well educated Arabic person.
JEBAL which is MOUNTAINS, translated as HILLS which is TELALS. and there is a big different between the mountain and the hill as you should know.

Those who translated the holy book, they did a great things no doubt about that, but they make some mistakes, by not giving the same and exact meaning of the word which came in Arabic in the Quran. (that came because their first language is not Arabic , or because their education is very limited)
For example:
THE SKY from your book is the right word to THE SAMA'A in Arabic.
and it came as THE HEAVEN in my book and that is wrong, because HEAVEN is "JANAT" and it is a place, and which is on the other side of it there is a place called "HELL".
UNIVERSES is not the right word for "SAMAWAT" plurar of SAMA'A which we said was right translation before, and UNIVERSES suppose to be SKYS , plural of SKY. The word UNIVERSE is a new word and wasn't known by the people at the time when the holy book was written.

TURNED in one, and DIRECTED in the other!, which one is right?
The word came in Arabic as "ISTAWA", and both translations above are wrong. Turned in Arabic term is "HAWALA"or "ITTAJAHA", and Directed is "SAYARA"or "WAJAHA".

ISTAWA, that word in the Quran repeated 12 time, the verse 2:29 is the first one, then repeated in , 7:45, 10:3, 13:2, 20:5, 25:95, 28:14, 32:4, 41:11, 48:29, 53:6, and the last in 57:4.

In verse 28:14 (the story of Moses), And when He (Moses) attained His full stregth "AND MATURE" (WA-ISTAWA) (or became in the level of stregth and maturity), We bestowed upon Him judgment and knowledge.....

20:5 The Most Merciful Who is above the Throne "ESTABLISHED". "ISTAWA"
ISTAWA in Arabic "level with, or in the level, etc"
God is the Holy Spirit, and God throne isnot a chair, but God has the unlimited sky as His place, and He is everywhere. An example came in this verse. 2:255 ....His "KURSI" (meant His place, and not as a chair that used by people, because KURSI in arabic is the chair that people sit on) EXTENDS OVER THE SKYS AND THE EARTH, AND THEIR PRESERVATION TIRES him NOT....

The SEVEN HEAVENS is a wrong translation to "SABA'A SAMAWAT", because SAMA is SKY and not HEAVEN, and what came in the Quran was mainly about the earth, and mostly about the sky of the earth.
21:32 And WE made the SKY (the earth sky-our sky) a protected CEILING, but they, from its signs are turning away.

67:3 Who created SEVEN SKYS in layers. You do not see in the creation of the Most Merciful any inconsistency. So return your vision (to the sky); do you see any breaks?
- The SEVEN SKYS are our sky, the sky of the earth, and asking the people "RETURN YOUR VISION", IS GOD ASKING US TO LOOK AT THE SKY ABOVE US AND NOTHING ELSE, because He knows that our vision is limited. People do not know at that time that the sky above us is the ceiling that made to protect us from the sun deadly rays. and even today with people knowing the one layer on the top that protect us which we call OZONE but only few who knew the other complicated layers, those betwen the Ozone and earth, or the layers of gases beyoun the Ozone.

"WE WILL NOT UNDERSTAND THE WORLD IF WE DO NOT FIRST UNDERSTAND THE LANGUAGE THAT BEEN WRITTEN BY IT". Galileo Galilei. (He is right)

Dr O.A.G. (my younger brother) graduated from the SORBON (the university of Paris) 1974, Major In mathematics,and a degree in physics from Damascus university, and worked several years at the observatory, helping professors in mathematical work, and gave lectures in several universities among them in the USA (1998-2000) Pittsburhg, Claveland and Omaha ,about his scientific findings and what came in the Quran, And spent many years in studying the Bible and the Gospels and the History about the other old beliefs, and he wrote several books (in Arabic) about those subjects, and one about Paul responsibility in regards of changing the Christianity faith. (JUDGING PAUL).(381 pages-2001)

In one of his books, and in the chapter called "THE PROTECTING SHILD OF THE EARTH" he brought an extensive research about the many layers of gases that cover the earth, and when been found/discovered and the scientists who discover them and the tools that been used, from the first discovery by the Italian scientist TORRICELLI (1644) to the discovery that came by using EXPLORER7 (1963). Here are the ATMOSPHERIC LAYERS of our earth:
1- TROPOSPHERE.
2- TROPOPAUSE.
3- STRATOSPHERE, By Chapman & Fabri. (early 20th century) 25-50km and the ( O3) OZONE the start of this layer.
4- MOSOSPHERE. (Kennelly - Heavviside) the name of the scientists.
5- THERMOSPHERE, discovered by APPLETON (1947) who get the NOBEL PRIZE FOR IT.
6- EXOSPHERE (after 500km from the surface of the earth) by the satellite ECHO (1961)
7- PROTONOSPHERE, that goes up to 70 thousand km, and no gases beyound this point.
After that he brought a study about the VAN ALLEN , THE MAGNETIC FIELD AROUND THE EARTH (MAGNETOSPHERE) in deatail, and other related subjects.
Dr. O. A. G., Memorised the Quran at early age, But I read it only before few years. In His work, he did not create a theory because theory can be questioned. Theory is buit mostly on philosophy, and it can be accepted and then rejected by another theory or by new discoveries in sciences. He did not bring the Quran to prove what came in science, but he uses the science to prove what came in the Quran, and to prove that this book is the Word of God. People at that time (1400 years ago) they have no clue about , the skys, or the mountains (except they are high lands), or that all object in the sky are going in an orbit, etc., because God said:
"AND YOU WILL SURELY (SURELY) KNOW THE TRUTH OF ITS INFORMATION AFTER TIME " Q-38:88
(NOT WHEN THE MESSAGE CAME BUT AFTER TIME, and the time came after many years by learning and using the pen to record things that other people learn from, and so on, and people started to get more knowledge and discover things and came to find the truth of many thing which wasn't known before, and the truth to what came from information in the Quran.)
" WHO TAUGHT BY THE PEN,
TAUGHT MAN THAT WHICH HE KNEW NOT "Q-96:4/5

Those seven layers that cover the earth, among them(within them) the magnetic field are our PROTECTIVE CEILING, and they are the SEVEN SKYS, which mentioned in the Quran.

Roy, The Quran is the word of GOD, and God when He sent His message send with it some scientific information beside the laws and other things, and He told us in advance that those informaton will be known to people AFTER TIME. God gave only the right amount of informations, because the knowledge of God is his secret and no human is able to grasp what it holds.

Salam, God bless you.

Name: roy • Date: 05/10/07 0:24

A: Sam,
I read Quran in Turkish my own language, from more than ten different translators. Plus ten english translators different copies including non muslims. To understand Quran fully is not necessarily required to be native arabic. If otherwise only 17% of all muslims would understand what it says in Quran but the rest of the globe would have suffered. Actually it has been a huge problem to overcome the small obstacle of language in earlier centuries. Turks and many other nations were going after Quran without knowing what was intstructed in it. People were suppressed by heavy illeterate-clerics interpretation of religion for them. It is very similar lifespan as the church went through over naive medieval christians. The basic reason of recession in science and wellfare in islamic world was the concept of sin if Quran was translated into any language. They still have hardliners in my country as well as others insist; "Quran must be read in Arabic only". I am strongly opposing this and feel sorry for any non-arab national, try to blindfoldly read, re-read, re-read Quran but behave un-ethically or completely against its way of life. Each of the so called religious unaware-of-Quran mass is inventing their own İslam according to their character. You see the laws differences of countries in Pakistan, Iran, Turkiye, Tunusia because they are either misinterpreting Quran or ignoring it totally as a final resort to avoid illeterate clerics or mullahs' tyranny.

So please dont tell me the arabic countries or people understand Quran better simply because they know the language. They dont know the universal language in it, otherwise last year non of the tens of teenage girls in Arabia would have been killed in a fire caught nursery school because the firemen thought it was sin to enter their quarters.

I read your comment on heavens and sky. It doesnt make any big change in any case. I used sky translation anyway correctly. Why do you insist on somewhere else the creation stared first? Does it make you more closer to God or Science? From earth or somewhere it has started and we are living in it. As the happy coincidence bible Quran and science agrees it started suddenly, precission calculated explosion (Big Bang) and from earth.

In such hessitant cases there are plenty of translations to cross check.

The main course of various Quranic translations does not change much, except in crucial mistakes as;

*dress code of muslim women . It should be taken one of the meaning as " himar " which refers any cover. Not head cover. I understand that verse reccommends women to cover their breasts.

*Cutting hands of thief; the marking of hand or wounding finger is also cutting hand. It must be interpretted correctly commensurate to the crime.

*Inheritance law; giving the children inheritence described in verses. After the will of the deceased.

*Freedom of belief, no compulsory prayer for the youngsters, as practiced in Iran or Saudi Arabia.

*No haram-salam for men and women in segregation .

*No compulsory intoxicating drink, gambling, adultery, fortune-telling prohibition. Except adultery has been ordered with punishment degrading one in face of comunity by flogging (or equavalent). As well as slandering of adultery has proportionate of the same. No killing of adulterer. No killing to narcotics smuggling.

The small unharming meaning changes may be ignored but better not overseen by the translators. It is their duty to be disciplined not our mistake if any misunderstanding occurs. Large number of people are shun away from reading the meaning of Quran. This is the real big headache. Bangladesh, Afgan, Indonesian, Malay, Turk, Bosnian, Albenian, Persian, South African all try to memorize Quran by arabic. Why not to their own language? They or their rulers are afraid to correct their false way of life, to free themselves from the backward customs, accepted practice of 5 centuries ago.
They voluntarily become slave to the idiot interpreters and hadith producers.

As you say;
"WE WILL NOT UNDERSTAND THE WORLD (OF QURAN) IF WE DO NOT FIRST UNDERSTAND THE LANGUAGE THAT BEEN WRITTEN BY IT". Galileo Galilei.

God wants working clever minds. He does not need parrots learn Quran by rote.

So your efforts clarify the meaning is welcome and admired but dont tell me Arabic native speakers are more knowledgable of it. Future holds many novel undertsanding of Quran by technology developing nations. You say correctly the verse

"and you will surely know the truth of its information after time " Q-38:88

I m appreciated to get to know your brother and his works. His 7 layers is correct as well as Prof Dr Osman Cakmak has written in his book beside that atmospheric layers. It may be interpreted as the layers of space. Quran mentions seven sky in nuh 15, mulk 3 .

In one verse says: "We furnished the near sky with stars".
It indicates there are other layers of sky after this immediate sky which holds stars. They are yet to be discovered.

1-Atmosphere (which consists of the 7 layers listed above)
2-our sun and nearby planets magnetised to it.
3-The milky way galaxy, 200 billion stars.
4-smaller galaxies consist of 25 tied with gravity to milky way.
5-billions of galaxies of about 200 billion. It is still expanding. Radius of the layer equals age of universe in terms of light year.
6-Beyond the galaxies an ever expanding layer consist of mysterious space matter.
7-Outer of that space layer that we havent reached to undertstand yet.

There are also 7 layers on earth.
1-Inner pit,
2-Outer pit
3-Manto
4-Outer manto
5-Litospher
6-Hydros-pher
7-Atmosphere

Salam,- May God be with you.

Name: sam • Date: 05/10/07 1:06

A: Hi Roy,

You stated : "This is again surprising a christian defending a day may be longer than 24 hours, exactly same way a muslim should put it, but as a muslim you claim opposit and how unscientific it is to have day before sun was created."
-----------------
I think you should slow down, and understand what you read before you give your answer.
I did not say there was day before the sun, that was what came in Genesis (the Bible), which also stated that the grass and other forms of life were created before the sun and the moon and the stars and the Bible was wrong in that , that is what i wrote, so, go back and read that post and my other posts.

I wrote down the names of the muslim scientists.
Chemistry/ Prof Dr. Osman Cakmak ~
Law /Prof Dr. Hüseyin Hatemi ~
Theology, Philosophy/ Dr. Caner Taslaman .
Man lived on earth no more than 7500 years or so. It was not proven in even a case that the instrument or building has been found in latter history by clever being.
I have to repeat the theory I read from Prof Dr. Hüseyin Hatemi of above again:
Prophet Adam and Eve, in September 5594 BC. According to their theory, Life has been developing till the era while some human-like animals were on the planet.
-----------------------
The exact date, September 5594 BC!!!, aTHEORY!, muslim scientists!!!,
By, Prof. in Law, (a Lawyer never regarded as scientist)
By, Dr. in Theology, Philosophy, (Theology - study in religion & Philosophy is the art of using words and language, both cannot be regarded as scientic. Science is based on observation, experiment, and induction; systematic and formulated knowledge)
By, Prof. in Chemistry. He is a scientist in his field, but he cannot support a date for the creation of man by using his Chemistry LAB.
You brought up the names of 3 well educated Muslims and only one can be regarded as scientist, and you believe in their THEORY, but you do not believe the thousands of scientists Muslims and non Muslim who spend years in the field and in labs and using the most advenced methods to come to the truth. Can you teel me what the prof. in law use to bring his theory? .
When you claim that a theologist is scientist, then we can take the theory of the biginning of creationby a Bishop as true. This is his theory:
Archbishop
James Ussher of Armagh, Ireland, calculated from the Bible (augmented by some astronomy and numerology) that creation began on October 23, 4004 BC.

Roy, as a Muslim you should know that The Quran never gave a date for the creation of earth or the creation of man Gos asked Muhammad to tell the people, all the people (not only the Muslims) this:
"O MUHAMMAD, SAY TO THEM, "GO TRAVEL THROUGH THE EARTH AND OBSERVE HOW THE CREATION BEGAN" Q-29:20
The creation here is not just the creation of the stars and the earth but the creation of everything including man. And travel through the earth to find the truth, that is what it said, not by sitting in the lab or bhind a desk.

You said: "Please also see related verses of creation" (you brought many, but not one give a date for the creation) You forget that I know all these verses and understand every word in them, as they come in my language.
then you said: "The early stages of human kind, from Adam to Jesus to Muhammd". Those stories of some people, been written in the Bible by people like the Bishop, who hardly know much about the real world or the creation, and who believe the earth is flat and the center of the whole world, this cannot be accepted scientifically. The word of those people cannot be equal to the word of the scientists who sent a man to walk on the moon or sent instrument to Mars and beyond to bring pictures of the billions of galaxies out there.
The day as to God 1000 years of what you count. (At the destiny chapter the holy kadir night ) The records of 1000 years events accends to God in one night. At another place ; "one day is 50.000 years of your calendar "is all stated in Quran.
You are bringing things from the Quran to prove you are right, but what you bring did not support you argument as of the date of the creation (sept. 5594 BC)
then you brought this story from the Quran, and has nothing to do with the date that the theory came with.
As well as people of Kahf is recorded to stay in the cave 300 years and 310 as a lunar calendar all exist in Quran. (that is is wrong, the total years they sprnt in the cave years is 309)*

You read the Quran and so many Muslim scientists and so the other millions, and you know from what you read that the Quran hold some scientific information, but Dr. O. A. G. spent years to look for something else, which mentioned in the Quran as other miracles, which is the Quran itself as a miracle, God said:
"SAY, "IF MANKIND AND THE JINN GATHERED IN ORDER TO PRODUCE THE LIKE OF THE QURAN, THEY COULD NOT PRODUCE THE LIKE OF IT, EVEN IF THEY WERE TO EACH OTHER ASSISTANTS."Q-17:88
Do you think that the Quran as words put together is the bigest miracle of all? then let us see what Dr. O. A. G. finds
From knowing well what this verse holds by itself, he went to study the Quran word by word, and his finding were written in four books each one deals with special subject, and of course I am not going bring them all here but I will bring few example only.
All Muslims know that the Quran contain 114 Chapters, and only few know that there are 6348 Verses.
So he started his hard work (with the help of some friends) and counted the words and the leters of the Quran, there are 77878 words, and 324,732 letters. For sure you and the others might say that is a nonsence and a waste of time, and that will prove nothing. but let us see if you are right or wrong.
The words:
"DAY" repeated 365 times.
"MONTH" 12 times.
"MOON" 27 times.
-------------------------------------
The word land repeated 13 times, and the word sea repeated 33 times.
And both totaling 46 times,
and since we know now that the land is only 29% of the surface of the earth,
So, 13/46 = 28.3%
And since we know too, that the water surface on the earth is 71%,

So, 33/46 = 71.7
I think when you add all up, sure you will find that is exactly right. And it is not a matter of guess.
--------------------------------------
"YEAR&YEARS-"- 19 times.
"SUN &MOON" 19 times.
74:30/31 - "OVER IT ARE NINETEEN(19).....AND IT IS NOT BUT A REMINDER TO HUMANITY"
Our galaxy is rotating around its AXIS once every250 thousand years, and the scientists believe that it is now at the end of the 19th revolutions.
19X250,000= 4.75 billion years. (most of today scientist give an estimate of 4.6 to 4.7 B/Y)
and the sun moves around our galaxy in speed of 19 km/sec.
---------------------------------------

Every- nineteen (19) years, the sun, the moon , and the earth will come to the same position.
--------------------------------------
112 of the 114 chapters of the QUR’AN began with this phrase as a verse:
IN THE NAME OF ALLAH , MOST GRACIOUS, MOST MERCIFUL.
The total number of the ARABIC letters in this verse are NINETEEN (19).
-------------------------------------
it is like miracle, or it is a miracle indeed, when it was mentioned in the
QUR’AN in the surah (chapter) Al QADR (97:1-5), the night of Al-Qadr, witch is the night of the coming of the QUR’AN ,and it is the 27 night in the month of RAMADAN the month of the fastening for Muslims, and the word (AL-QADR) it did come in the place were it was mentioned by (she), after a twenty six word, to be the word number (27).
-----------------------------------------
We might say it came by chance. That is fine, but what we say if such a thing happen before in a larger number of words .
* In the surah (chapter) Al-Kahf (18:9-25). (that what you mentioned above)
Q-18:9 Or you have thought that the companions of the cave.........
Q-18:25 and they remained in their “CAVE” for three hundred years and exceeded by nine, that is (309 years).

The word CAVE in the Arabic writing was the word number (308) followed by the words three hundred and nine (309), on the spot.
-----------------------------------
There are many more examples like those but let us go to a different kind of miracles.
Let us look at the Surah number (98), witch translate to (THE CLEAR
EVIDENCE). It contains (98) words, and after that surah ( chapter), there are exactly (98) verses to the end of the QUR’AN .
The word EVIDENCE came twice:
In verse # 1 witch contains (55) letters, and,
In verse # 2 witch contains (43) letters, with a totals of (98) letters.
---------------------------------
Chapte-r- 72, (Surah AL-JINN),
The last Verse, the verse 28 :
"THAT HE (MUHAMMAD) MAY KNOW THAT THEY HAVE CONVEYED THE MESSAGES OF THEIR LORD; AND HE HAS ENCOMPASSED WHATEVER IS WITH THEM AND HAS ENUMERATED ALL THINGS IN NUMBER."
(All thing in NUMBER!?)
If you go back to the Quran (in Arabic), you will find in this chapter (72) the verse end with word like "A'JABA" (amazinf), "AHADA" (anyone), "WALADA" (a son) etc., and at the end comes "A'DADA" (number).
The total of these word 28
27 in 4 letters ---- and 1 in 6 letters
6+ 27X4 = 114 and that is the total of the "SURAH" CHAPTERS of the Quran.
Those 28 words, some of them are repeated, as "AHADA" (anyone) REPEATED 5 TIMES, and by takin out the repitation we will have only 19 words with different meanings.
18 with 4 letters ---- and 1 with 6 letters
6+ 18X4 = 78 letters
If you take these letters without the repeatations, you will find that these 19 words are made of 19 letters.
The 4 letters of "A'DADA" (number)in this chapter in Arabic are, 'Ain', 'D', 'D' and 'Alef',
those 4 letters repeated in this chapter 361 times.
19 X 19 = 361
"IN THE NAME OF ALLAH , MOST GRACIOUS, MOST MERCIFUL." 19 letters , in Arabic.
"OVER IT ARE NINETEEN(19).....AND IT IS NOT BUT A REMINDER TO HUMANITY"
--------------------------------
In the surah (chapter) number (38) witch has the letter “SAD” (one letter in arabic equal to “S” in Latin) as its heading, which is the number 14 in the arabic language, from the 28 of the total letters, and the heading for that surah is just one letter, witch by itself has no meaning. Except, what comes after it bring a lot of truth.
Q-38:1 “SAD”, and the QUR’AN containing reminders.....
87 It is but a reminder to the worlds.
88 AND YOU WILL SURELY KNEW ABOUT IT AFTER TIME.
- Of course, all these finding came to be known after time. Can anyone think that all what the Qur’an came with is a matter of guess?.
---------------------------------------
In the QUR’AN - JESUS name were mentioned 33 times in 33 verses, and in 9 verses of those 33, each one has 33 words .
MARY’S name mentioned 34 times, is that the 33 + 1 , and the 1 when He was alive inside his mother womb . Then let us hear the words of GOD about her:
Q-3:42 And when the angels said, “O MARY, GOD has chosen you and purified you and chosen you above all the women of the worlds.
(She was chosen and purified to be Jesus mother, and Jesus is the one who been sent by God, and He is the one to carry God message not His mother)

The word PEACE mentioned 33 times, is it HE who said (PEACE ON EARTH).
The word BELIEVE repeated 33 times. (For it is the target of the message)
The word WE BELIEVE repeated 33 times. (For it is the achievement in reaching the target)
--------------------------------

Q-29:43 AND THESE EXAMPLES WE PRESENT TO THE PEOPLE, BUT NONE WILL UNDERSTAND THEM EXCEPT THOSE OF KNOWLEDGE.

Roy, the examples which I brought here is taken from four books with total pages of 875 pages, and there is some work very hard to explain in few words but it has to brought as total to be understood, I will try my best to condense some that is if you are interested.

God bless you.

Name: roy • Date: 05/10/07 12:10

A: Hi Sam,
Yes I am interested of your brothers work. It is very refreshing some of them like 19 on the marking of hell and heaven and name of sun moon, year passes 19 times,as well as 19 km per second.( This last one is not relevant as God may use measure of mile instead, what happnes then?)
I believe some of calculations are true, but some futuristic muslims forced it too much to get the formulation and chances of 19 times of everything that thery dare to omitt two verses from Quran. Tevbe last two verses (9:128,129), were deleted in their translations to match the numbers. One of the guys Reshad Khalifa was killed because he started to claim he was the prophets helper and receiving revelations even he put his name in Quran. You can find his translation in
www.submission.org
I put down his close ally name here on your inspection. Mr Edip Yuksel, close friend of Reshad Khalifa. He is also calculating the number values and draw out new findings. God does not need His book to be proven in that way. Although many things may be true about these calculations.
http://yuksel.org/e/

You can find many calculations as well as other miracle claims under this page and chapter. Edip has contributions on this book. ( He is a Law degree Phd, but very knowledgable on religion to the extend that he has his own translation of Quran~missing last two verse of tevbe (9:128,129).)

http://q-uranmiracles.com/
Chapte-r- below of the page:
Mathematics and 19
Also see;
http://www.jsc.nasa.gov/jscfeatu-res/articles/000000026.html
Scientist- of a Nasa, muslim pages.
http://islamic.gsfc.na-sa.gov/docs/Quran.pdf

Being- a scientist is not a free pass to truth. Hawking and Darwin were also scientists but they refuse the existence of God. Whereas Goethe and Berthold Brecht, Tolstoy were Philosophers and poets but they figured out how God shows Himself.

In case of Law and Philosophy professors by the same token can well be very enlightened whereas thousands of Nobel prize winner scale scientists may well be at lower altitudes than a peasants knowledge about God.

I dont know where Mr. Hatemi draw conclusion about exact date of creation September 5594 BC. In Quran does not state such a word, I didnot say it is from Quran. I dont claim it is hundred percent sure, it is a theory, and these men are very trustworthy in their leading roles in the society, but they may of course be tackled and mistaken most of the times. I say it when it is written in Quran which we believe by heart.

I didnt recall correctly the verse of Quran 300 and 309 lunar calendar. You dont miss a thing. What about when we will be resurrected in doomsday people will say we stayed on earth half of a day, one hour even less than that. It is also indication of relativity theory of time.

I dont take a look every time to Quran please forgive me if there is mistake in precise wording.

Peace be with you

Name: Panluna • Date: 05/10/07 17:16

A: Does any one know what the "Mark of the Beast"---Cains mark---looks like?Is it invisible?an attitude or mindset?or is it the number 666 which I believe was Nero's number or something Alister Crowley identified with when he renamed himself "The Beast".Does the whole human race bear this mark?

Name: sam • Date: 05/12/07 2:11

A: Dear Roy,

That was my question:
that I would like to know if you read the Quran in Arabic (your first Language) or in English (translation) ?

Here is your answer:
To understand Quran fully is not necessarily required to be native arabic.

I agree with you, but I would like to add this:
A- My question was about one thing, and that is if you read the Quran in Arabic or from translation, since i did not know what language you speak. My son is a doctor and he speaks Arabic, but he cannot read Arabic, and He started reading the Quran along with his Christian wife (doctor too) last year from translated Quran (so, my son and you are the same, Turkish and Arabic reading the Quran in English, and I too read the Quran but in both languages, but only me that i could notice the mistakes that come from the translation, and you should know that a word translated wrongly it can effect on the subject sometimes), his wife, and after ten years of marriage she did fast all the month in last Ramadan, she did that by herself and without anyone asking her, and she got all the informations from the Islamic sites, but still she has to come to me for certain questions. She knows a little about Islamic religion, but her believe in one God and saying that Moses and Jesus and Muhammad are prophets and messenger from God and do good in her life, is far better than a muslim who does not respect or fight a muslim of the other sects.

B- I am not a blinded religious man, and I believe that all people are equals, and they will be judged fairly at the end by God.

C- But, it is necessarily to FULLY understand the Quran to have some good education and knowledge in many fields beside the religion education (no matter what language a person speaks). The Quran written in words that people could understand, but also bring laws, science etc., and to fully understand those, a person should aquire some knowledge about them, and by saying that, i do not mean that all people should come to that level of such education, because the main purpose of the Message that God sent in the Quran, is to believe in Him and to believe in His Angels, and in all His messages and messengers, and do what He aked us to do.
For example, You as a Turkish educated person you will understand what you read in the Quran from the translation version, and much better than an Arabic person who is not well educated , and who reads the Quran in Arabic. And I can say that You understand the Quran more than my son even with his higher education, and much more than me, since my knowledge of the Islam religion is limited and started just a few years ago, but also I can say that my knowledge in Arabic is far much better than those who learned Arabic.

D- You said,
1- "Turks and many other nations were going after Quran without knowing what was intstructed in it."
- That was wrong. That came as a result of lack of knowledge and understaning from the Muslim leadres and teachers (clerics), mainly the Arabs when they teach the Quran and Islam to other nations, and create their own rules "MAZHAB", at early time.

2- "People were suppressed by heavy illeterate-clerics interpretation of religion for them."
- illeterate-clerics...lack of knowledge....wrong teaching(interpretation ).... create many sect....follow blindly, those are the reason for deviding the Muslims, and those what kept muslims in the back stage, and those were the reason for others in not accepting the Islam, and it is not because the Islam teaching but because of the Muslim way of teaching the Islam.

E- And you said, "They still have hardliners in my country as well as others insist; "Quran must be read in Arabic only". I am strongly opposing this"
- And so do I, I oppose any idea that hold the word of God hostage to one language or one nation. God sent the Prophet and the Quran to all people, and not to the Arabs only. Here what God said:

"AND WE HAVE NOT SENT YOU EXCEPT COMPREHENSIVELY (without exception) TO MANKIND AS A BRINGER OF GOOD TIDINGS AND A WARNER. BUT MOST OF THE PEOPLE DO NOT KNOW" Q-34:28

THE MESSAGE TO ALL MANKIND, and the people will not get the message if they do not read it in their own language. Most of people do not know. illeterate-clerics...lack of knowledge...interpretation ...which brings and spread the wrong message, and the worst of it all is FOLLOWING BLINDLY by the masses.

About what you mentioned here, "You see the laws differences of countries in Pakistan, Iran, Turkiye, Tunusia because they are either misinterpreting Quran or ignoring it totally as a final resort to avoid illeterate clerics or mullahs' tyranny."

That is true, but do not forget that we are not only faced by different laws in different country, but by the fact that there is hardly any laws followed correctly at all those countries, not the laws of man and not the laws of God. That is the case in most of the third world contries, in all the continants.

As for the "dress code of muslim women ", Many things came to Islam and it is not from Islam, and that is only one of them, another one forcing people to go to mosk (Saudis), or not educating the girls and not let women work, and using metal chain to hurt themselves or go around like a yoyo or many others things that Muslims do which is against the teaching of Islam, and not to forget people calling themselves Sunni or Shiite or whatsoever and make sects and parties, that is all against the Islam teaching. All that kept me far away from been attached to muslims since i was 14/15 years old. A person who call himself Sunni or Shiite and hate the others are not Muslims but Sunni and Shiite.

God bless you.

Name: Shlomo • Date: 05/12/07 5:38

A: Panluna,

Qayin's mark per the tale in the aggadah is a "horn-sign." It was not a protective device, but a sign of shame. Qayins grandson Lamech was out hunting [ going blind by age at this time ] and thought he saw his target as an animal with horns, so he shot his arrow and killed Qayin. It is documented that his grandson Lamech did in fact kill Qayin. Otherwise there is really no record of what the sign actually was. It is highly unlikely it was a number, because marking [ tattoos, carving into, etc.] the flesh is forbidden by G_d's law and G_d does not violate his own laws.

I do not think the human race bares any mark other than the image given by G_d. About forty years ago, Evangelists were saying that the mark of the beast was a credit card or some other form of a monetary system. The number 666 is not all inclusive. One can derive hundreds of things, objects, people, names, etc. with this number. Like you refer to Nero or how about Solomon's gold of 666 talents etc? This writer they call John or whoever it was, had a knowledge of the Kabbalah / Essene mysticism. That is why the book was written in the particular manner it was.

Name: Panluna • Date: 05/12/07 13:35

A: Thank you for your answer about the mark.

Name: roy • Date: 05/15/07 8:30

A: Hi Sam,
I agree with you on reading Quran in arabic makes great difference, however the arabic today is notthe same as arabic 1430 years ago, so you may need also some interpretation. The etimology is a social science today rather than a matter of simple understanding the meaning of a word. It requires another field of study which is not business of common people. We have tools today to check the most correct meaning from professionals of the field. We must get the correct belief in that way. The debate about the correct meaning of a word brings new riches to the undertsanding of İslam.

I agree with you hundrespercent all what you say rest of your article. I thank you for modesty and praising me on some virtues. May God help you and family to lead the happy life you have enjoyed as in the past to the future.

I invite especially you, CanuckChick and friends from blog and their family to see istanbul if you may in your free time for vacation.

Please contact me at email [email protected] in case you have anything to say.
Regards

Name: CanuckChick • Date: 05/15/07 12:44

A: Roy, my friend,

Many thanks for your kind and gracious offer. We will, in fact, be on Paros (Greece) next May for two weeks.

I have filed away your email addie for future reference.

CC

Name: Panluna • Date: 05/15/07 14:56

A: CanuckChick,
Enjoy your trip to Greece.

Name: sam • Date: 05/15/07 18:00

A: My friend Roy,
I invite especially you, CanuckChick and friends from blog and their family to see Istanbul if you may in your free time for vacation.
Thank you for your invitation, I really appreciate it, and I would like to say to those who read your post that Turkey is a beautiful country, the cities and the countryside and towns and the beaches on the Mediterranean and the black sea are great places to visit, and I should not forget the most important things which is the goodness and the hospitality of the Turkish people. I did say that because I been there long time ago, but my younger brother and his friend (teachers), and my brother -in-law, they visit Turkey dozen of times during the last thirty years and they had a good time there.
In 1963 my eldest brother who worked in Saudi Arabia (financial planning, budget analyzing, auditing - TEXACO) arranged a camping trip for 75 days touring Europe, for us, his three younger brothers. A brand new Peogou404, a tent and all the camping gears. Started from Lebanon and visited Syria, Turkey, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Austria, Germany, Denmark, Sweden, Holland, Belgium, England, France, Swiss, and back home. All the countries we visited are beautiful, but Turkey has its charms and qualities that non of the other has. Here couple of our stories there:
In the way to Ankara, we stopped at a restaurant in a small village for dinner, The menu in Turkish, and no one speaks English or French, and the owners noticed our difficulties in choosing what we want, so He did prepare few plates filled with a collection (rice, kabob meat, cooked vegetable and others), and by the sign language we show him our appreciation, then he brought the tea, and that was fine with us, and there after the plates of fruits and sweets (baklava staff), which make us worried as felt that we been ripped off, and between ourselves we start to figure how much this will cost us!!!?, and when we ask, “how much”, of course by hand sign, he brought the bill with total of 45, which equal to 5 Lira in Lebanon, and that was the price of 2/3 sandwiches on the road and not a plate in a restaurant. We were very surprised, that the owner noticed that, and he thought this price is too high for us and he tried to explain to us that the tea and the fruits and the sweets are not on the list, but it is his to say wilcome.
How can we forget that.
We arrived in Ankara close to sunset, and afraid not to find a camping place at that time, we stopped at a small forest, and we put our tent and we started preparing something for dinner under the light of lantern, suddenly a dozen of boys and girls came few speaks English, and asked us from we came and we told them about our adventure on the map which was very interesting to them, some kids rushes away and brought their parents, and they came bringing a lot of food, then they asked us to use their home if we need too, and we stayed until very late hours having good time, and we been welcomed to stay as long as we want.
The forest was no more than the backyard of those beautiful houses in the suburb. Next day the kids guarded our tent, while a young man showed us the many parts of the capital. In our way back we visited them again as we promise them.
How can we forget those people.
If scouts put their tent in places like this in any other towns or cities in western Europe they will be asking for trouble, and they will be kicked out, no trespassing is their laws. They welcomes you because of your money, but in Turkey they welcome you because they love other people.
At the end it shouldn’t be fair if I did not mention the good people, the peasants of Bulgaria and Yugoslavia, and their welcome and generosities, while they know that the communist regime tell them not even talk to the outsiders at that time the risk was high.

To CanuckChick, and the other friends,
Seeing the others country and meeting it is people is the best things that one can achieve, and it open the window for people to know each other and to understand each other, and it is the best way to achieve peace among nations.

God bless you all.

Name: Not Dattaswami • Date: 05/30/07 0:30

A: ..

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