Fo-r- those of you who don't know, here's Naked Bone Hunter's Post::
VERY IMPORTANT - SEE BELOW - email of JOE ZIAS, March 1, 2007 - CAN SOMEONE VERIFY THIS AS BEING THE GENUINE EMAIL FROM JOE ZIAS, if it is, then this is critical news ( Note: I am not the author of the following excerpt , The Naked Bone Hunter )
Time magazine again reports: "Asbury Theological Seminary professor Ben Witherington, a early Christianity expert who was deeply involved with the James Ossuary, says there are physical reasons to believe it couldn't have originated in the Talpiot plot." Following the lead of Time, I did my own detective work and checked out Ben Witherington's blogspot (see, www.benwitherington.blogspot.com).
Witherington claims: "Joe Zias is a fine archaeologist of long standing and good reputation. He is the person who catalogued the ten ossuaries from the Talpiot tomb, and personally catalogued the tenth ossuary. He worked with Amos Kloner as part of the team who made the original discovery. In two emails this morning to someone I have been talking to he made crystal clear that the tenth ossuary was blank, certainly was not the James ossuary at all despite the assertions of those involved in making the (Vision TV) special. These emails have been sent along to me, and I will let them speak for themselves.
Joe Zias [email protected]: Subject: Re: Jesus Tomb Sent: Thursday, March 1, 2007 6:02 AM
"Amos Kloner is right as I received and catalogued the objects, the 10th was plain and I put it out in the courtyard with all the rest of the plain ossuaries as was the standard procedure when one has little storage space available. Nothing was stolen nor missing and they were fully aware of this fact. It just didn't fit in with their agenda." Shalom, Joe.
The filmmakers were fully aware that the tenth ossuary in the so-called "Jesus family tomb" was blank, but it didn't fit in with their agenda. So they deliberately misled viewers with a spurious assertion that this was the James ossuary
END OF EXCERPT
CAN SOMEONE CONFIRM THIS WITH JOE ZIAS ?
Name:gnotcivulf •
Date: 03/15/07 21:30
A: P.S. I wanna know, too.
Name:Schwar3Kat •
Date: 03/16/07 2:54
A: Hi gnotcivulf
Joe has his own website.
http://www.joezias.com
If the blog engine puts any dashes (-) in the url then just delete them for some reason this blog is prone to do that.
Regards Kat
Name:gnotcivulf •
Date: 03/16/07 3:35
A: Thanks, Schwar3Kat.
Straight from this link:
http://www.joezias.com/tomb.html
We have this from the Horse's mouth:
"THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER The truth of the matter is that the missing ossuary was never missing, never stolen from the IAA, nor stolen from the Talpiot tomb. Plain ossuaries which bore no inscription, nor any ornaments were automatically placed in an inner courtyard in the Rockefeller Museum during my tenure at curator (1972-1997). Due to a lack of storage space this was standard operating procedure, the ossuary was given a registration number, measured and simply stored in the inner courtyard with perhaps an additional 50-100 plain ossuaries. This was personally explained to Tabor by me so as to avoid any problems of a conspiracy theory in which the plain ossuary would figure. Unfortunately, it did not fit their agenda so they artificially created a story in which a plain white ossuary, suddenly morphed into a ossuary with two rosettes on the front, traces of red paint, bearing the inscription on the back ‘James son of Joseph, brother of Jesus. "
Hmmm... curiouser and curioser...
I wonder what SIMCHA and his group has to say about this? Does anyone know of any response by him, Cameron, or anyone else involved with this discovery? I wonder if they ever peruse this board. (Are you out there, Simcha?)
Name:jsm •
Date: 03/16/07 3:37
A: Their to busy pushing DVD sales before the majority of people realize this is a hoax.
Name:gnotcivulf •
Date: 03/16/07 3:45
A: I see you got their spam for the DVD, too, huh, jsm?
*sigh*
It's probably too early anyway to expect a response... oh, heck, they spent YEARS on this!!! Wouldn't they have CHECKED THIS detail out???!!! That's all I'm saying.
Name:starman2fly •
Date: 03/16/07 16:20
A: It's curious that in Amos Kloners' 1996 paper there is no image of Ossuary 10 unlike the other nine, just this info: 10. IAA 80.509: 60x26x30cm. Plain.
Rahmanis' 1994 catalogue lists nine.
What's going on?
The measurement discrepency of the length, 60 versus the 50 centimeters of the James' Ossuary could possibly be accounted for by the uncommon extreme trapezoidal shape of the face of the box and the measurement being dependent on where it was taken. The width and height are right on.
Joe Zias says it wasn't lost or stolen and was catalogued. So it should be trivial for the IAA and Joe Zias to find, right? Where is it?
Gnotcivulf, why would the filmmakers 'deliberately misled viewers with a spurious assertion' if it could so easily be proven wrong?
I believe there is substance in this discovery and it is OBVIOUS. The disclaiments should put up real substance to counter it and not just words.
I hope Mr. Wheat is OK.
Starman
Name:gnotcivulf •
Date: 03/16/07 17:22
A: starman2fly:
"Gnotcivulf, why would the filmmakers 'deliberately misled viewers with a spurious assertion' if it could so easily be proven wrong?"
I really don't think that (mostly) is the case. Though I do understand how some info has not been addressed (the skulls, the tomb inscriptions, etc.). I just want to hear BOTH sides of these findings and I find that the Joe Zias claim is a serious accusation and I would like to hear from Simcha & Co.'s response. Or, for that matter, ANY validation or rebuttal that sheds validity for or against. That's only fair, right?
Side Note: "Buckwheat has been shot..." is a reference to a classic Saturday Night Live skit that involved a video of Buckweat (played by Eddie Murphy) getting shot by an unknown gunman being played over and over and over again for "then benefit of the viewers just joining us". thenakedbonehunter's postings all over this board struck me as a "Buckweat" scenario.
BTW, it turns out that Alfalfa shot and killed him. Otay! :P
Name:Perceptions •
Date: 03/18/07 16:11
A: gnotcivulf
I've CONFIRMED it , THANKS A LOT!
This is what JOE ZIAS wrote in reply;
Shalom, I confirm all except the use of the word archaeologist as I'm a physical anthropologist. also go to www.joezias.com and scroll down to viewers guide to the doc.
Shalom
Name:gnotcivulf •
Date: 03/19/07 6:50
A: Thanks, Perceptions. This was more of NakedBoneHunter's hang-up than mine. He/she owes you just as much thanks (where you BTW, Boney?). However, I'm more interested in SIMCHA"S response to this allegation.
STILL WAITING, SIMCHA!!!!
Name:starman2fly •
Date: 03/19/07 19:32
A: STILL WAITING , AMOS KLONER AND JOE ZIAS!!!!
Where's the box? Where's the photos?
You're telling me one of the ten major objects discovered in this very interesting tomb wasn't even included in a group photo?
The argument it was too plain and boring to photograph just doesn't cut it. It was an archeological find and it is properly recorded regardless of subjective attractiveness.
Where is it?
Anyway we have nine Talpiot boxes, the 'James ossuary', and about a thousand other first century boxes. Let them all be patina tested by multiple independent labs and let a computer algorithm find the best fit for the James. It's a lot of work, yes, but it is straightforward scientific grunt work and the stakes are high enough to justify it, don't ya think.
It's not Simcha we are waiting on. He presented his case and data. The other side is responding with words when they should have access to hard material evidence.
Otay!
Starman (I like Astronomy)
Name:sadinoel •
Date: 03/19/07 21:20
A: James Ossuary is a hoax anyway so your argument is moot. you are putting your trust in the word of a serial forger !!!!!
Police investigation
Israeli magazine Maariv correspondent Boaz Gaon reported that IIA Theft Unit had focused their attention of the "Jehoash Inscription" as being an expensive bait to defraud a prominent collector in London. Israeli investigators linked a phony business card and a telephone number to a Tel Aviv private eye who admitted that his employee was Oded Golan, the "collector" who owned the James Ossuary. Oded denied that he was the owner of the stone and claimed that the real owner was a Palestinian antiquities dealer who lived in an area under Palestinian Authority and must therefore remain nameless.
A March 19, 2003, article in Maariv told that court had issued a search warrant for Golan's apartment, office and rented warehouse. The search brought forth incriminating documents and photographs of Golan beside the Jehoash Inscription. Under interrogation, Golan promised to reveal the locations of the stone in exchange for immunity from prosecution but was refused.
_________________________-______________________________
HER-E- IS THE BEST PART! LOLOLOLOL!!!!!! GO AHEAD AND BELIEVE THIS MORON IF YOU WANT... And I have some magic beans for sale if you are interested! LOL!_____________________________-__________________________
The-n- police made a new search in storage space that Golan had rented in Ramat Gan but had not disclosed to the police.
LOL! They found scores of dubious artifacts, forged ancient seals and other inscriptions in various stages of production and tools and documentation to help in the manufacture of the forgeries. LOL!!!
Under harsh questioning, Golan reputedly broke down, confessed and promised to hand over the Jehoash Inscription.
Name:starman2fly •
Date: 03/20/07 1:22
A: sadinoel said "James Ossuary is a hoax anyway so your argument is moot. you are putting your trust in the word of a serial forger !!!!!"
Not moot at all cause I wasn't making a case just asking the two who catalogued the ossuary and say it isn't lost or stolen to show us. Also when did I say I trusted Oded Golan? And if he did confess why is the fraud trial still ongoing and undecided? Fraud of the James ossuary has definitely not been proven. Maariv is a Hebrew language tabloid newspaper, the key word here tabloid. Trustable or not Oded Golan did produce an ossuary and that is chemically testable and definable. That was my second point, the patina testing. Simcha emphasized this point too, to expand the sample base, test and retest. Any problem with that?
Who did you buy those magic beans from?
Starman
Name:sadinoel •
Date: 03/20/07 18:03
A: Oded Golan had a warehouse full of forged relics and seals. That much is not in dispute.
That alone is enough to cast severe credibility problems on this guy. Why should we take for granted anything he puts forth, or grant any credibility to him or anyone who supports him?
I have no problems with further testing. Testing is good. But it isn't going to happen, and if it does I am confident there will be conclusive evidence either way, thus nullifying his theory since he bears the burden of proof in this.
This is all going to fade into the ether soon anyway. Bottom line is that Simcha already cashed in and there is no reason for him to delve further into this. You honestly think this guy cares about finding the truth? He wants to find what's in all of our wallets.
Name:sadinoel •
Date: 03/20/07 18:05
A: EDIT: my sentence should have read "there is NOT going to be conclusive evidence either way".
Name:gnotcivulf •
Date: 03/20/07 18:05
A: sadinoel
I've read the articles you posted as well and I am aware of but also have read the arguments answering to these allegations in the book "janes the Brother of Jesus" . I'm not 100% convinced of this tomb business either, but I will not dismiss any claims as long as they are tested. The burden of proof rests on Simcha, Joe Zias, and anyone else throwing their hats into the ring and up to the public to sort out fact and fabrication. There are powerful arguments for and against, I just would like each side to present their views/ testimony.
Besides, why would Golan be refused in a bargain to finally reveal the location of the bloody pssuary?
We're all still WAITING!
Name:sam •
Date: 03/28/07 16:40
A: starman2fly,
You asked a fair QUESTION, "I believe there is substance in this discovery and it is OBVIOUS. The disclaiments should put up real substance to counter it and not just words."
I AGREE WITH YOU, and here the ANSWER:
We should not forget that the side who deny every finding today, are the one who accept everything that comes to them from their early fathers in Rome, those who burned Gospels and people and try to cover the truth from the biginning, until now.
The finding of this tomb should NOT be debated by words, and by going back to the fathers and their chosen books or by the bible(OT) which has nothing to do with Jesus death or barrial, BUT to face those who brought this findings (Simchas & friends & scientists), in the same way, and support themselves by scientific methods, by going to the tomb themselves and do their work in a scientific way, and I think they had all the means (POWER & $$$) to do that, BUT NO ONE WILL ATTEMPT TO DIG HIS OWN GRAVE, that is the truth..
Of course, that will never happen, because they know for sure if they use that road (the logic & science), they will arrive to the same conclusion which the scintists found, so they will stick to their old methods and keep thing in suspend knowing that the time will be in their favor, and the truth of JESUS TOMB will disappear in time. Great tactics !, used before and worked for two thousand years, and it might work today.
IT MIGHT WORK TODAY!!!, WHY?, because people even today and in21st century still cannot speaks out the truth "afraid", and WHY AGAIN?, because there is a limit, 1- for political reason, 2- the side who brought this discovery do not want to come face to face with the churches and the christians, and bring a conflict at this time. That is why they say "this is what we found, and even we know it is true, we leave it for the others to decide the outcome of it.
The Christians do not want to believe in things that can be seen and touched, but they do believe in many other stories, as:
Jesus ascend to heaven and sitting on the right hand of God or in the journey (in MT 4:4) which Jesus was tempted by the Devil, (the conversation between Jesus and the Devil was written word by word, while they were alone on top of a high mountain, and there was no witness!!!.)
They BELIEVE in such a story (MYTH) as it is true, but they DO NOT BELIEVE in the real finding from the TOMB OF JESUS !!!. Where is the LOGIC & COMMON SENSE?.
THIS IS THE TRUTH, my friend.
God bless you.
Name:hayomtov8 •
Date: 04/12/07 18:22
A: A: HEY GUYS,
RELIGIOUS OR NOT ,BELIEVER OR UNBELIEVER, NATURALIST OR CREATIONIST.COME ON! YOU ARE NOT DOING YOUR HOME WORK . THIS IS A FORGERY! A HOAX ! ALL OF YOU WHO ARE SPEAKING IN FAVOR OF THIS FAKE FRAUDAULENT FIND ARE GOING TO HAVE EGG ON YOUR FACES!! THIS IS GOING TO END UP STRENGTHENING THE CHRISTIANS POSITION WATCH!!! IT IT IS A STRAW DOG FOR SURE. THERE ARE SO MANY RED FLAGS TO THE DISCRIMINATING MIND. MARK MY WORDS!! I PROMISE I WILL POST NO OTHER STATEMENTS UNTIL THAT DAY WHICH HAS ALREADY BEGUN . THE TRICKLE OF DETRACTIONS,RESHUFFLELING,RETRACTIONS WILL BECOME A RAGING RIVER!!!!! ON THAT DAY I WILL POST AGAIN,SO UNTIL THEN KEEP......(FILL IN THE BLANKS WITH WHAT EVER YOU CALL YOURSELVES DOING).
