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Name: Cutteren •
Title: What do U think? Hoax or not?!?!?! •
Date posted: 04/20/07 2:12
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Q: I finished this movie like 15 minutes ago, I did not know much about the topic but at least I have heard about the missing ossuarie of "james son of joseph brother of jesus"- The show I viewed about that ossuarie claimed that it was fake inscriptions and that the collector was a fraud as well cheating and ripping several people off.
Watching The Lost Tomb Of Jesus I think that this is perhaps the real deal and that it is really the tomb of Jesus, but who am I to state it is real... Seriously somebody out there must tell med or else I wont get sleep for some time!! This is just far out! I hope it is real, and I hope that Jesus "son of god" was nothing but a human.. Like a 2.000 year old Nelson Mandela, Ghandi or Bono...
So please what do you think? Simple yes or no answers would be nice, we count and see which side get more votes...
I start and vote YES
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Name: vvk •
Date: 04/20/07 6:53 |
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A: No, I belive every they found . It's the truth. we have to accept .
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Name: Mark Stilt •
Date: 04/20/07 9:36 |
A: TO: Cutteren -
I find the evidence that this tomb is in fact the 'Jesus Family Tomb' to be compelling.
Having said that, there is far too little evidence to conclude, that the DNA in the Jesus Ossuary represents the decomposed remains of the body of Jesus.
It is possible (for instance), that the discovered DNA represents the remains of a blood soaked shroud (John 20:6,7); and/or the remnants of a blood soaked piece of wood, reintered in the ossuary AFTER being removed from the original Garden Tomb subsequent to the resurrection.
Such items might have received a sort of 'token burial' in the preexisting "Family Tomb" (AFTER Christ's resurrection), being the only remaining physical artifacts of his death.
It is even possible that the remains of ANOTHER individual were placed in the Ossuary that had been originally 'marked out' for Jesus.
That ossuaries occasionally pulled such "double duty" is well documented.
At any rate, I find it telling, that you seem to have a genuine "hope that Jesus "son of god" was nothing but a human" after all.
I for one have a sure testimony (not dependent onthe testimony of "flesh and blood") that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God (Matthew 16:16,17).
Consequently, I don't need to fear any discovery of science OR history. After all, in the end, the only thing ANY Christian is REQUIRED to believe IS the truth. In fact, we seek after these things (Phillipians 4:8).
Sincerely,
Mark Stilt
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Name: R. Kirk Kilpatrick •
Date: 04/20/07 14:50 |
A: OneGod...
Here are some statements from the DNA specialists... so far as other scholars USED in the documentary... that is just what happened in my opinion. They were used. They were not allowed on the documentary (Cross and others) to give their opinion of the assortment of evidence for the tomb. They were USED in their area of expertise, but their judgment on the whole was not allowed. So far as the statitician, he is not an expert in the field of archaeology or biblical studies.
Regarding the DNA “evidence”:
Dr. Carney Matheson, Lakehead University Paleo-DNA Laboratory, the one who did the DNA testing for the filmmakers:
The only conclusions we made was that these two sets [from the “Yeshua” and “Mariamne” ossuaries] were not maternally related. To me it sounds like absolutely nothing.
Elsewhere, Matheson noted that possible relationships (which DNA cannot establish) could be:
…father and daughter, paternal cousins, half brother and sister (sharing the same father) or simply unrelated individuals. The media does what they want.
And elsewhere:
There is a statement in the film that has been taken out of context. While marriage is a possibility, other relationships like father and daughter, paternal cousins, sister-in-law or indeed two unrelated individuals [are also possible]…
Regarding the tomb in general:
Prof. Amos Kloner, Israeli archeologist who oversaw the original discovery of the ossuaries:
It makes a great story for a TV film. But it’s completely impossible. It’s nonsense.
Dr. Jodi Magness, Department of Religious Studies, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill:
The entire way this has been done has been an injustice to the entire discipline [of archaelogy] and also to the public.
Dr. William Dever, professor emeritus, University of Arizona:
The fact that it’s been ignored [since 1980] tells you something. It would be amusing if it didn’t mislead so many people.
Elsewhere:
It’s a publicity stunt, and it will make these guys very rich, and it will upset millions of innocent people because they don’t know enough to separate fact from fiction.
Dr. Leen Ritmeyer, biblical archeologist, Associate Professor at the College of Archaeology & Biblical History, TSW University:
It would have to be an archaeologist’s worst nightmare. Imagine — your careful academic work, as was Amos Kloner’s supervision of the tomb’s excavation for the IAA (Israel Antiquities Authority) in 1980 — hijacked by Hollywood. And that to produce a sensationalist documentary…. It is possibly the most cynical claim yet to be made in the field of Biblical Archaeology and only serves to give the subject a bad name.
Dr. Aren Maeir, Director of the Tell es-Safi/Gath Archeological Project and a lecturer at the Martin (Szusz) Department of Land of Israel Studies at Bar Ilan University:
Since, along with, most probably, the majority of archaeologists who deal with the ancient Levant, I have been asked about the question of the supposed tomb of Jesus and his family …, I thought that I should join the very clear message of the responsible archaeological community and say — this is HOGWASH!! (excuse my French!).
Dr. Laurence Stager, Professor of the Archeology of Israel at Harvard University:
From what I know about it at this moment, it sounds rather preposterous.
David Mevorah, Curator of the Israel Museum:
[Any theory that] this tomb was a tomb of the family of Jesus is a farfetched suggestion, and we need to be very careful with that.
Prof. L. Michael White, Director of the Institute for the Study of Antiquity and Christian Origins, Univeristy of Texas:
This is not archeologically sound. This is fanfare.
According to the Washington Post:
Leading archaeologists in Israel and the United States have denounced the purported discovery of the tomb of Jesus as a publicity stunt.
Dr. Dan Bahat, Israeli archeologist currently with the University of Toronto:
Yeshua was such a popular name during the Second Temple Period. The fact that you have such similar names is due to the fact that these were the prevalent names during that time.
David Mevorah, curator of the Israel Museum:
[The chances this is real] are more than remote. They are closer to fantasy. … [Their statistics are] a good trick. … Statistics can bring empires down or build them up. But I wouldn’t build a theory of the most important person of the first century on statistics.”
Dr. Tal Ilan, scholar who compiled the Lexicon of Jewish Names that was essential to the statistical calculations put forward by the documentary:
I think it [the lexicon] was completely mishandled. I am angry.
Dr. Garret G. Fagan, Professor of Classics at Penn State University:
They’re not scientists, but they need to dress themselves in the clothes of science to pass muster… Television is not in the business of education, even with the so-called educational channels like Discovery. “Ultimately, they’re in the business of making money. … By the time the rebuttals come out, the mass media would have moved on to the next sensation and people will have this vague notion that they have found the tomb of Jesus.
See: http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/03/05/asking--the-experts-about-jesus%E2%80%99-lost-tomb-/-
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Name: zartan •
Date: 04/21/07 3:52 |
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A: Of course Jesus was a human. It states in the bible that he came from the seed of Joseph. You can't get any more human than that. Further proof is that the bible describes Jesus as the "Son of David", and any biblical scholar can tell you that Joseph was a descendant of David. Jesus had a biological Dad, a biological death, and an archaeological resurrection.
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Name: JMD •
Date: 04/21/07 13:32 |
A: The Jesus Dynasty Blog
April 18, 2007
Those Backtracking Scholars
Filed under: Tabor's Blog — James Tabor @ 12:48 pm
While I was in Jerusalem last week a story appeared in the Jerusalem Post headlined “Jesus Tomb Film Scholars Backtrack” by Etgar Lefkovits. Its essential claim was that several prominent scholars interviewed in the controversial film, “The Lost Tomb of Jesus” had now revised their conclusions two months after the screening of the film. These “dramatic clarifications” reported by Lefkovits were based on a Web site article by “epigrapher Stephen Pfann of the University of the Holy Land.” Of the thousands of stories that have appeared on the subject of the Talpiot “Jesus” tomb since February 26th this one by Lefkovits has to be ranked, from a journalistic standpoint, as one of the worst of the worst, and given the multiple contenders, this ranking is not an easy one to earn.
Unfortunately, the Lefkovits story (try Google: “Lefkovits tomb backtrack” for a small sample) was flashed around the world, picked up by media that understandably found such a headline irresistible and a host of Christian bloggers eagar to feed on any scrap of major media coverage that might cast into doubt the claims of the film–that the Talpiot tomb likely once held the bones of Jesus of Nazareth. After all, once the story is published it is no longer “Lekkovits says that Stephen Pfann says that Prof.X says,” as reported on a Web site that has the word “New” flashing on-and-off over its “Tomb” discussions, but it is now “The Jerusalem Post reports this or that.”
Lefkovits mentions five scholars who have “backtracked” from their positions in the film–Andrey Feuerverger the statistician, Shimon Gibson, the archaeologist involved in the original excavation, Frank Cross, the renowned Harvard epigrapher, Carney Matheson who did the DNA tests, and Francois Bovon, another Harvard professor who works on Mary Magdalene traditions. Lefkovits ends his story with a naively formulated theological affirmation that seems strangely out of place in a news story: “According to the New Testament, Jesus rose from the dead on the third day after his crucifixion, and an ossuary containing Jesus’ bones–the explanations of the movie director notwithstanding–would contradict the core Christian belief that he was resurrected and then ascended into heaven.”
The problem is none of these five scholars have backtracked or repudiated what they presented in the film and Lefkovits did not bother to talk to any of them.
As it happens, the day the Jerusalem Post story appeared I was sitting with Shimon Gibson in the lobby of the American Colony hotel and we read the piece through together. He was quite upset at how he had been partially quoted as saying “I’m skeptical that this is the tomb of Jesus” as if this was a new position he was taking reflecting his “backtracking.” His full statement, even as produced on Pfann’s Web site, Lefkovits’s one source for his story, plainly says the filmmakers did a good job, carrying out their work with integrity and vision, and that he was keeping an “open mind” about the possibilities. One of my purposes in being in Jerusalem was to work with Gibson on our ongoing research on the Talpiot tomb which we have carried out for two years now in complete and cooperative harmony.
I am also in very close touch with Prof. Feuerverger, the renowned statistician at the University of Toronto. Over the past few weeks we have spoken at length on the phone and exchanged dozens of e-mail. I am thoroughly familiar with his work and his conclusions and he told me this week that his major academic paper on the statistics related to the Talpiot Tomb is very close to final completion. According to the Lefkovits story Feuerverger’s is the “most startling change of opinion” of all the “backtracking” experts, but he then goes on to quote his “new” position which is identical to the one he expressed at the initial New York press conference on February 26th, and one he has held all along–namely that his 600 to 1 figure refers to the rarity of the cluster of names found in the Talpiot tomb. I have offered an extensive discussion of this in earlier blog posts so I won’t repeat it all again here, but even better are Dr. Feuerverger’s own words on the subject that I just received today: “I would like to make it clear that I stand by the statements I had made in my probability calculations. I have retracted nothing. My website makes clear the assumptions of my calculations. Subject to these assumptions, my estimates have not changed.”
Prof. Frank Cross of Harvard, a renowned epigrapher of Hebrew and Aramaic of this period, provided readings for the ossuary inscriptions including “Jesus son of Joseph.” He has not in the slightest way changed his views on these readings so to cast him as one of a group of scholars who have revised their views as stated in the film is totally irresponsible. Cross said in the film that the names were common, indicating his own view that connecting this particular "Jesus son of Joseph” to the one in the New Testament is not a self-evident task. I have discussed this with him and he is rightly skeptical of statistical claims in any field, but he would be the first to admit that he is not a statistician and anyone who knows Frank Cross knows that he keeps an open mind. His official position is that he stands by the readings and what he says in the film and that his business is not to draw conclusions about whether this is or is not a tomb connected to Jesus of Nazareth.
Dr. Carney Matheson, who supervised the DNA tests on the bone fragments in the Yeshua and Mariamene ossuaries, has not backed off in the least from the results achieved by his laboratory. I have been involved in the whole thing from start to finish and I was present when his results were presented. I have also since been in touch with Dr. Matheson, to be sure he is okay with what I write here. When Dr. Carney Matheson first broke the news of the DNA test results live on camera in his laboratory he offered the passing observation that given the small grouping in that tomb, with only two women named, it was possible the two were “husband and wife.” He did not intend to be understood to say that was the only possibility, and he would be the first to make clear that DNA tests often eliminate relationships as well as establish them. Some times, in that sense “no match” can be as informative as “match.” The DNA results did not tell us what the relationship between the two was, but what it was not—the female sample was neither the mother nor the maternal sister of the male. At that time I am not sure if he even knew anything about the possible identity of the samples. Had the two turned out to be related then we would have been able to add another “relationship” to our statistics. As it stands two relations were eliminated making the husband and wife one of the possibilities, but certainly not the only possibility. However, as I have often pointed out, since Jesus had three “intimate” Marys in his life, his mother, his sister, and Mary Magdalene, in this case, getting “absolutely nothing” in terms of a maternal match between Yeshua and Mariamene does indeed turn out to be quite significant for overall possibilities of interpretation.
Finally, Professor Francois Bovon has not in any way backed off from what he said in the film regarding the use of the name Mariamne as an appropriate name for Mary Magdalene in later Christian sources. His article is on the SBL Web site for anyone to read. What Bovon has clarified is that he is dealing with literary sources and traditions, and in his work in that regard he does not intend to claim that the historical Mary Magdalene was called by this name in her own lifetime. But he has reiterated his view that Mariamne, besides Maria or Mariam, is a Greek equivalent, attested by Josephus, Origen, and the Acts of Philip, for the Semitic Myriam, and that the portrayal of Mariamne in the Acts of Philip fits very well with the portrayal of Mary of Magdala in the Manichean
Psalms, the Gospel of Mary, and Pistis Sophia. Professor Bovon does not accept the overall thesis of the film, either that Jesus was reburied in a second tomb or that he was married to Mary Magdalene and had a child with her.
There is no doubt that Jacobovici’s film has a point of view and that it seeks to present a case, namely that the Yeshua of the Talpiot tomb is indeed Jesus of Nazareth, and that based on evidence in this tomb he had a child, most likely with the one we know as Mary Magdalene in the N.T. gospels. How well he makes that case is subject to debate and discussion. However, it is ludicrous to fault Jacobovici, who is neither archaeologist, epigrapher, statistician, DNA expert, nor historian for consulting with those experts considered among the best in each of these areas, presenting the results of their work, and then making use of that data in formulating his own presentation. In the same way, if I consult a lexicon or translation of an ancient work from a language in which I am not trained, even as a scholar and a historian, by using such a source, I am not implying the editors of these works somehow agree with some historically reconstructed model that I might construct, based on such linguistic evidence.
Coming:
A Critical Evaluation of Pfann’s paper as the source of the Jerusalem Post article
Getting the Facts Straight on the Patina Studies related to the Talpiot & James Ossuaries
Pfann “Teaches” Rahmani and DeSegni Greek 101
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Name: Panluna •
Date: 04/21/07 16:33 |
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A: I vote yes.I read the book and recieved my DVD yesterday and I feel that they found the real tomb and He and His family being human makes it easier to relate to instead of being placed on a religious pedestal and being unattainable.I feel that His words which are His legacy should be paid more attention to and taken to heart.He was a pacifist who loved this world and tried to heal it.
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Name: JohnD •
Date: 04/21/07 17:15 |
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A: Yes. The religious experts 2000 years ago were wrong just as the "logical experts" of today are wrong. I believe Jesus rose from the dead and the box is where they put his bloody clothes. I am dumb and simple minded so please don't wast time calling me what I already know. I like the wisdom of babes...
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Name: CanuckChick •
Date: 04/22/07 11:27 |
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A: Ah, but the box was not completely empty! A little-known, unpublished fact: Nestled in a corner at the bottom was Panluna's missing family fruitcake.
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Name: zartan •
Date: 04/22/07 12:51 |
A: You have some nerve joking that somebody is a fruitcake. Perhaps you should re-examine some of the preposterous Jehovah's Witness nuttiness and realize that your glass house could use a few less stones.
CanuckChick calling somebody else a fruitcake is laughable.
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Name: Panluna •
Date: 04/22/07 15:14 |
A: CanuckChick,
I was wondering where it went to.thanks for finding my fruitcake!!!!we really miss it!!!
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Name: Panluna •
Date: 04/22/07 15:17 |
A: Zartan,
my take on the fruitcake is in the topic Filled with Hope...it's a three parter.And it was meant to be funny......
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Name: Xcavate •
Date: 04/22/07 16:26 |
A: Good Job JMD, Thanks for posting that from Tabors blog I was going to post it myself. There has been so much biased interpretations of the show it makes me sick. How can all these so called scholars judge so quickly the facts in this case? I would be willing to bet they are mostly coming from one position or another, trying to prove it wrong to justify that position.
I for one believe there is a strong possibility that there is some truth to this claim. It doesen't mean that all of it is true but We must all keep an open mind so the truth comes out. I don't see much of that in this early " scholarly debate". Thanks, Ben
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Name: CanuckChick •
Date: 04/22/07 18:10 |
A: Zartan: I think you misunderstood my "fruitcake" reference. Cultural misunderstanding? You better say yes.
Or else.
I'll have you know that I have friends in very high places. I can arrange for 5 rather large J. W.'s to be knocking at your door next Saturday at 7:00 a.m. Their suitcases will be filled with bible literature - and they're not afraid to use it.
You will then, witout further ado, be gang-saved.
You will be taken to the nearest body of water (preferably cold) and held under until you come around to our way of thinking. (Baptized)
Then we'll see who's knocking on whose door.
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Name: zartan •
Date: 04/22/07 22:16 |
A: I'm sorry to misinterpret. Calling somebody a "fruitcake" in US has connotations that they are nutty and fruity (aka weird or crazy).
Please don't baptize me. I'm allergic to Jesus.
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Name: JMD •
Date: 04/23/07 6:46 |
A: Thanks, Xcavate. You could go post Tabor's blog on the 'Discovery' site, as I don't post over there? Maybe nobody has posted this yet? Anybody check?
Well, as I'd said earlier, around March mid-month, on another thread here, and which I'll thus just copy and paste is:
Besides, truth be told, the knee-jerk reactionaries right now, who get absolutely nothing out of this interesting discovery/theory, aren't really worth my time, though I read them anyway, and realize how thin their arguments are.
I am going to wait and then 'seriously' read what is being said later about it - because the truly intelligent scholars, scientists, various experts, etc., -no matter what stance they take; either don't know, or lean towards yes, or lean towards no, but still, no matter what their initial feelings about it,
they are being a bit cautious, are going to want to study this more in depth, before presenting their viewpoints - that shows wisdom and intelligence. Those various experts spouting off from day one, disputing this find 100 per cent right away, are not very good critical thinkers.
But, since I'm not part of academia, I can say what I want, when I want, and figure I'll support it, until proven otherwise, (if ever), as they make a good initial case, in my opinion, (documentary and book), even if further work needs to be done on this theory.
Light & Peace,
JMD
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Name: betty47 •
Date: 04/23/07 12:18 |
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A: I am inclined to believe it's not a Hoax at all; although, we have to wait for further tests to know more. Dr. Tabor and Simcha have been very brave to face the world after 2000 years of Christianity and tell us that things are a bit different than what we've been told. Bravo for them.
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Name: fabulous1 •
Date: 04/25/07 0:22 |
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A: Yes i believe 100% this is Jesus's family tomb. I am excited about this news! I would give a kidney to touch or be in the presents of this the tomb. As soon as I heard the evidence my stomach flipped. I just can't explain or express my feelings in words. Thank you for finding this tomb. Carol
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Name: JMD •
Date: 04/25/07 3:39 |
A: Oh, you're right about that, betty47 -this is not a hoax. Even if one doesn't accept this theory, you can't fault Simcha Jacobovici for his dedication and passion and committment to it, as he truly believes it is the Jesus Family Tomb, he is not trying to pull a fast one on anybody - thus, I'd really like to see people attack the argument/s about this theory and 'not' Jacobovici on a personal level; that really annoys me, as it's just downright wrong.
Yes, Betty, I agree that Jacobovici and Tabor, [as well as others involved in this documentary] are very brave, so a hear ye to "Bravo for them."
And look at the article I just read today; here's the headline:
"When Simcha Jacobovici claims he's found the Holy Grail, he isn't exaggerating. And now the battle lines have been drawn"
One thing they note is this: "The most refreshing thing about Simcha is that he honestly believes in what he's found and what he's suggesting. There is nothing fake about him and he said he welcomes challenges."
But then they continue with this, which made me chuckle:
"He truly believes it to be the tomb that not only holds the mother and earth father of Christ but Mary Magdalene, too."
earth father ? If Joseph is who they're referring to, he must be in one of the plain ossuaries?! Oh well, it was still a nice article to read overall - and per this article, it seems the dvd will be released in stores soon - Simcha is going to be even busier than he likely already is.
It's nice to see some support here for this theory. I figure prove them wrong then if they aren't right - so far, nobody has done that.
Here's a link to the article:
http://www.torontosun.com/News/-TorontoAndGTA/2007/04/24/4125175-sun.html-
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Name: betty47 •
Date: 04/30/07 3:52 |
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A: Yes. I agree. Simcha has done a great job for all of humanity. It's not a hoax. And as a Catholic, I will have to admit, that the hoax is buried somewhere in the history of Christianity. I would like to figure out how this Christian hoax of a very human Jesus was really was started. I would like to strip away all the myths of the virgin birth, the rising from the dead and really figure out what happened after Jesus died. Is it in the human mind easier to accept a God that is a human rather than a God that's in the air and harder to see? Where did these comments from people come from in Christianity that said Jews were not about worship as a fabulous1 claimed in one of their posts in another threated under FilledWithHope.How could someone make such a horrible comment like that about Judaism, and yet Christians have been making comments like that against Jews for thousands of years. Where did that come from? I as a Christian would like to apologize for such anti Jewish statements and would like to know what turned Christianity into such a faith as to blast Jews like this over and over? Are their any open minded Christian scholars out there who can tell me?
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Name: Xcavate •
Date: 04/30/07 5:27 |
A: Betty,
ln relationship to the jesus family tomb. I think the term "open minded Christian scholar"is an impossibility. Not to put anyone down. but it is an oxymoron,don't you think?just curious. what are your thoughts?
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Name: betty47 •
Date: 04/30/07 12:58 |
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A: Ha! Sad, but true. I still hold out hope there is one somewhere. Dr. Tabor seems like he's pretty objective.
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Name: Xcavate •
Date: 04/30/07 14:41 |
A: Betty,
If there is a scholar that is open minded it would be he. But I have never asked him If he believes jesus is the sin of god? I am some what scared of what he might answer :)
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Name: Xcavate •
Date: 04/30/07 14:51 |
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A: LOL, I meant SON of god :))
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Name: Panluna •
Date: 04/30/07 15:07 |
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A: Open-minded Christian Scholars?!!!That's a rarity.Especially since one's religion taught from childhood would be diffucult to change if they haven't been taught to be flexible in their thinking.I'm not sure when the twist of facts occured in the early years of Christianity and it's a real mystery to me.There could be something in Gnostic Gospels or the grail myths.
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Name: betty47 •
Date: 04/30/07 20:47 |
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A: I just bought the Jesus Dynasty, the Jesus Papers and the Jesus Family Tomb books. I have a lot of reading to do. Take care everyone!
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Name: Xcavate •
Date: 05/01/07 14:19 |
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A: Betty they are all excellent reading. I just got done with The Jesus Dynasty interesting reading. I like Tabor take on most things.
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Name: Xcavate •
Date: 05/01/07 14:33 |
A: Panluna
I think if you read Dr. Tabors book The Jesus Dynasty you will see just that change in him.In The End Historians don't believe that you can have a child without a father, preform miricles, or raise from the dead. It leaves you wondering if a biblical historian can even Believe that Jesus was the son of god.
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Name: Panluna •
Date: 05/01/07 14:55 |
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A: We are all God's children.I just ordered Tabor's book.Any scientist would say it would be impossible to be concieved without a father and mother and that miracles don't occur etc. because they deal with tangible facts.The impact of the Talpiot tomb finding has really rocked this planet.I would like to know what kind of material was used in making the Shroud of Turin.
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Name: Xcavate •
Date: 05/01/07 15:38 |
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A: I think you will like Tabors book. It is contriversial but he has done his home work. Here is a link to a good article on the shroud. http://www.shroudstory.com/
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Name: Ladyhawk •
Date: 05/01/07 16:41 |
A: "Is it in the human mind easier to accept a God that is a human rather than a God that's in the air and harder to see?"
betty, I just had to speak to this. I'm not exactly sure if you think this is a good thing or not (there's a lot of material here and I kind of lost the context as I read too quickly through) but this is something that I've been observing with some concern for some time. For the record, I'm Catholic also (though these days inclined to refer to myself as a Catholic Druid because I think the pagan/Christian translation heedlessly narrowed the scope of things.)
Back to the point: I have been watching this Jesus is God thing for a long time, and I am really struck by the fact that (at least in the Catholic church) there are at least two generations of people who have no concept of God the Father (or Mother), or God the Creator, or "in the beginning was the Word and the Word was God." The psychology is easy to follow: Jesus is God--and Man--and thus, Us.
I think it's a mistake. To sustain understanding of a great Other over all, and a message of love and compassion for all living things, it's necessary to remember that before the Son, there was first the Father, who created Heaven and Earth.
A theology that centers only on the human incarnation of the Other denies nature in a perverse sort of way, and, more importantly, the Mind of the Divine. To my mind, it belittles the Creation and natural law--which we see evidence of now on a daily basis, with contempt for global warming, an unnatural glorification of war and lack of compassion for "enemy" dead, the creation of religious "elites" and a growing class of religious "enforcers"--all of whom operate "in Jesus' name." There is no sense of a fabric of creation, of each of us being a part of the greater whole.
The Trinity makes it possible to understand the three faces of God (or more, if one is inclined to parse the issues). But when you make Jesus the God-man who stands alone, and whose only proof of divinity appears to reside in death (because it's all about salvation, which is really self-centered, but that's another discussion) the focus easily becomes one of judgment and forced compliance.
I'm not speaking well to this, but it bothers me. Just as we need to understand that we must care for the earth (God's creation) as well as our immortal souls, we need to know the whole of God--Father/Mother, Son and Spirit--to fully understand our place in God's world. Something is wrong.
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Name: betty47 •
Date: 05/03/07 14:46 |
A: "From Xcavate I think you will like Tabors book. It is contriversial but he has done his home work. Here is a link to a good article on the shroud. http://www.shroudstory.com/ "
Yes. Thank you, Xcavate. I think Dr. Tabor's book is wonderful. I can't put it down. I was up reading until late in the night. And to JMD and LadyHawk. Thank you for your insights as well. Very, very intesting. I can tell both you of are very sincere in your thoughts. To answer your question, LadyHawk, yes, I do think this discovery is a good thing and very incredible. I agree with you that too often Christianity is concerned with death, and judging and what happens to your soul. I was listening the other day to a Christian broadcast and all they talked about was death and the End Days. I want to be a good person while I'm still on this earth. I don't know what will happen after I die. I don't have all the answers, and I think now after reading about all these new theories, many of the so called answers will have to be adjusted anyway.
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Name: Panluna •
Date: 05/03/07 14:55 |
A: Betty,
Live Life to the fullest.There is plenty of time for the grave.Focus on the current moments.Those end of the world prophecies have been around for a long time ever since the beginning of our curiosity.Have a nice day!!!
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Name: betty47 •
Date: 05/03/07 17:14 |
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A: Yes, Panluna, I agree. Thanks!
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Name: Panluna •
Date: 05/03/07 22:27 |
A: hi Betty,
Thank you for mentioning Shroudstory.com.I got my answer to what material it was made from:linen.I'll tell you it's really durable to last this long.The mummies that were wrapped in it were much older.I wanted to make the pilgramage and see the Holy Land and visit the Shroud when it was on display several years ago.I just wasn't able to do it.Constitine's Empress was responsibe for naming the some of the sites in Jesus's lifetime after Constitine legalised Christianity in 3??AD
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Name: calleydog •
Date: 05/04/07 13:48 |
A: Hoax. Check out this web site for the facts:
www.truthguard.com
"The first to present his argument seems right, until another comes and disputes it."
--Hebrew Proverb
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Name: Panluna •
Date: 05/04/07 14:40 |
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A: The good book is full of wise sayings.The writers were very perceptive and insightful.Shows no matter how advanced we think we are we are still the same as our ancesters.What a loop!!
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Name: Not Dattaswami •
Date: 05/30/07 0:34 |
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A: ..
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Name: JMD •
Date: 05/30/07 9:07 |
A: The moon
Abiding in the midst of
serene mind
billows break
into Light
-Dogen
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Name: Nelson •
Date: 05/31/07 23:12 |
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A: Jesus is real...I have faith in Him and believe in his existance and His resurrection. You cannot change your minds just because a film maker decided to go into business and show the world what he has found, if he in fact found anything. Nothing will change my mind, not even a film trying to change (or not) the minds of those who believe. I find it hard to believe a movie could change 2 milleniums of what we know.
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Name: Nelson •
Date: 05/31/07 23:20 |
A: To Cutteran
My four-letter word: H-O-A-X
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Name: Panluna •
Date: 06/01/07 15:16 |
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A: The greatest archeological find of all time is just as real as the Pyramids.This is not a hoax.
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Name: CanuckChick •
Date: 06/01/07 15:25 |
A: Nelson: If this discovery does, in fact, turn out to live up to its claims, it does not necessarily follow that you faith will be destroyed. See the post "Different Body", buried (forgive the pun) in the back pages, around 3 or 4.
CC
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Name: Panluna •
Date: 06/01/07 23:35 |
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A: And Nelson there were 2000 years of controversy,wars and whispers that surrouned the grain of truth:Jesus was human,he was not physically resurrected but he was spiritual ressurected just like the rest of us when we pass away.Jesus was a Hebrew Rabbi who had a son named Judah.The proof was found in the ossuaries sequestered in the Talpiot tomb.The book The JESUS FAMILY TOMB will give you the details.
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Name: JMD •
Date: 06/02/07 2:26 |
A: Well, until it can be proven otherwise - which so far they haven't - I accept that this Talpiot Tomb is the tomb of Jesus and Family, and I back /support those who think this is highly likely the tomb of Jesus and Family.
To speak from one 'spiritual' perspective, let's say, there are other so-called 'tombs of Jesus' in other parts of the world, but those, I think, have a 'mystical' meaning behind them . . . visions, if you will, of Christ, (who could appear in whatever 'spiritual' way/form he wanted, perhaps?) and thus tombs were built for him - which would really be memorials, moreso than tombs, to my mind -because 'the' Yeshua/Jesus tomb, is Talpiot. Unless ever proven otherwise, as I noted. . . .
-JM:D
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Name: Panluna •
Date: 06/02/07 14:11 |
A: JMD,
The other tombs could be memorial sites created by the missionaries trying to teach the new converts the greatest story ever told--from Nativity to Crucifixtion.Who knows maybe the missionaries wound up getting buried in them.It depends on what year the other tombs were made.As far as mystical appearances of Jesus and Mary are concerned Jesus appeared to Padre Pio (an Italian monk) in the early years of the 20th century and Mary has made several appearences in the past hundred years.Each time there was a messege--with the exception of when she appeared to me.Perhaps my messege is to tell people I have seen her or her ghost---the Bible says ghosts don't exist( I've seen plenty of them all my life).My question is: How did she die---was she put to death?Did she die of grief after losing her son Jesus in such brutal way or did she live to her old age?And how did Judah die?I know he died young---his ossuary was smaller than the adult ones found in the Talpiot tomb. Anything in the scriptures or related sources that might contain the answer?
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