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Name: Seakit •
Title: "Chevron" = the Christian Fish •
Date posted: 03/06/07 2:07
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Q: The “chevron” is likely to be a fish symbol standing upright. It’s not a true chevron because the lines curve inwards.
Gedaliahu G. Stroumsa from The Hebrew University of Jerusalem argues in a paper “The Early Christian Fish Symbol Reconsidered” (from the David Flusser Festschrift) that the fish symbol was associated with Yeshua (Jesus) during his own lifetime. Jesus was called after the Biblical Joshua, Yehoshua son of Nun – in Aramaic “Nun” means “fish” and there are various legends connecting Joshua with fish. Jesus’s own connections with fish, coming from Galilee, Jonah and the whale etc, made the fish a good symbol for him. Gentile Christians learned about the fish as a symbol for Jesus and then made up the Greek ixthus acronym to go with it.
Full article at http://pluto.huji.ac.il/~stroumsa/Fish.pdf
The fish had messianic symbolism known to John the Baptist. G.R.S.Mead in an article on “John the Baptizer and Christian Origins” (from 1924!), says a scholar Scheftclowitz showed that 'fish' was quite a common symbol for the righteous man of Israel... “Evidence goes back as early as the times of Gamaliel the Elder, the teacher of Paul, who was therefore a contemporary of John and Jesus… Though they were not 'fishers of men,' they were fish of Yahveh swimming in the holy stream, the life-giving waters of the Law… Nor could John [the Baptist] have been ignorant of the prophecy in Jeremiah (16:16) … "Behold, I will send for many fishers, saith the Lord, and they shall fish them," ... of an even more arresting nature is the following from Berešith Rabba (ch. 97): "As the Israelites are innumerable, even so are the fishes; as the Israelites will never die out on the earth, the fishes will never die out in their element. Only the Son of Man named 'Fish' could lead Israel into the Land of Promise,—namely Joshuah ben Nun ( = Fish)."
http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/gno/gjb/gjb-1.htm
We usually see the Jesus fish drawn on its side, but it was also done standing on its tail. Picture of standing fish from a Coptic carving of the 6th century in Luxor Museum, Egypt.
http://www.scholarsresource.com/browse/museum/46
(need to find other carvings earlier in date).
Look at the shape of the head & eye of the fish, it looks just like the tomb.
The fact that the fish-&-eye symbol is scratched onto a Christian ossuary at Dominus Flevit strengthens the fish idea. And, of course, identifying the “chevron” as a fish strengthens the case for connecting the tomb with Jesus.
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Name: KRS •
Date: 03/06/07 2:57 |
A: This is pretty dubious, yeah, the fish is pretty early, we have references to it in the archeology as early as the second century, but not without the tail. Again, without a some other occurance of the symbol (or in your terms, without some other occurance of the fish in this form) or something else to put it in context, all we can do is speculate.
As for being a true chevron, there is a lot of variety in the depictions of the chevron and other symbols, so the curved lines isn't really a problem in that regard.
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Name: SpiritWoman •
Date: 03/06/07 13:45 |
A: Greetings Seakit,
Thanks for sharing.
More and more I see the adoption and evolution of ancient symbols hidden in religious symbols that all is connected to the psych of humankind one way or the other.
Can't explain it's to personal.
Peace.
SW
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Name: Varangian •
Date: 03/07/07 15:18 |
A: Yes, I think you are on to something Seakit.
It isn't a seperate chevron and circle but rather a standing fish head seen from the side. With an eye in the middle.
However, I would suggest that is the sign of Jonah that Jesus himself speaks about in Matthew 12:38-41:
Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, "Teacher, we want to see a miraculous sign from you."
He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now one greater than Jonah is here.
The sign of the prohet Jonah, who was swallowed up by a giant fish and spend time in its belly. Hence the closed mouth of the fish.
Photo of an early christian fish symbol:
http://research.yale.edu/-divdl/images/eikon/ei0351s.jpg
Se-e- the chevron (maybe later mistaken for a pyramid) with the circle (eye) in the middle. Thats your symbol.
More, according to Wikipedia (maybe someone can help fill me in):
Another story suggests that the ichthys [the fish] was used as a sort of secret handshake: one person would draw with a staff a single curve, (half of the ichthys) in the sand, and another person could confirm their identity as a Christian by completing the symbol. Alternatively, one would draw the symbol, and another person would confirm their faith by drawing an eye on it. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ichthys
A chevron with an eye /.\ a secret christian symbol. The sign of Jonah meaning resurrection (maybe also warnings from Jahve, enduring hardships).
A bit interesting isn't it?
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Name: Varangian •
Date: 03/07/07 15:41 |
A: Bad link to the fish picture sry, here is the correct:
http://research.yale.-edu/divdl/images/eikon/ei0351s.jp-g-
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Name: Sandra L. Butler •
Date: 03/07/07 16:09 |
A: The chevron (shaped like a roof) symbolizes protection (Jerusalem).
Jerusalem (in the NT) is referred to as "the mother of us all."
The circle symbolizes the holy seed.
The spiritual mother protects the spiritual seed (the word of truth).
Note to SpiritWoman: absolutely. I have been studying the Bible for its spiritual content for the past thirty years and have concluded that it is the greatest psychology book every written.
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Name: SpiritWoman •
Date: 03/07/07 21:25 |
A: Greetings Sandra,
Yes, but I can't discount the fact that it is also a Symbol of the Giza Pyramid and the Sun rising.
It just fasinates me that this symbol along with many others appear all over the world.
The Cross, the star, are some I find in different forms in many cultures everywhere.
I have studied ancient Spirituality in many forms avidly on my own for many years. I find the cannon but a stepping stone and there are many.
Peace
SW
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Name: Mog Rhod •
Date: 03/07/07 21:39 |
A: I have the same interpretation, but more expansive.
If you know the ICTHYS fish, and upend it, it very much resembles the last segment of Kundalini or Caduceus.
http://blog.myspace.com/mogrhod
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Name: Sandra L. Butler •
Date: 03/08/07 14:35 |
A: Greetings SpiritWoman,
My husband had the same take...the pyramid and the sun. I wrote an article (which I posted on my website) about Egypt and The Bible...how Ra the sun god and Jesus the Son of God may be emanating the same spiritual truth.
P.S. the circle=Galilee
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Name: KRS •
Date: 03/08/07 17:40 |
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A: It still doesn't answer the primary problem - again, all of this is pure speculation. For it to have any scholarly validity you need some additional type of reference to put it in a first century context.
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Name: kas •
Date: 05/11/07 17:19 |
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A: Saw the movie last night for the first time and when the symbol appeared above the tomb I said, "Look it’s a fish and a representation of the female." I had absolutely no idea about the origins of the Christian fish symbol and if it dated to that era. In my brief research this morning I found, yes, it does date to this period, and came from an early pagan symbol that did in fact speak to fertility and female reproduction. Found (online, unsubstantiated information) that it was used as a secret Christian symbol and can be found on Christian tombs of the era. Further, when looking at the traditional double arc representation of the Christian fish I noticed, if the top arc is shortened, it looked very much like the "cross" or Hebrew T that was shown in the movie. Anyway, obviously I'm no scholar in the era of secret and/or ancient symbols and the way they are used or evolve, etc. It just seemed so clear to me the moment the image flashed on the screen. I didn't even know that symbol would be a part of the film. I came to the website to see if there was anymore information on the symbol and found this forum. There's my two cents. (Note, my login is KAS not KRS; sorry didn't mean to pick something so close KRS!)
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Name: Rob •
Date: 05/18/07 15:39 |
A: I worked on some archeological sites in north Jordan desert. There I saw many times very early Christian crosses from the Greek period in reused Christian grave stones in building walls a type of Cross with a Chevron like the one in the tomb on the ends of each of the arms of the cross. I was told that this represented a fish tail symbol by the archaeologists from Oxford. Some futher quetions about the documentary. There were nine ossaries what was inscribed on the ossaries not featured in the documentary?
Do Jesus's bones show signs of Crucifiction? Original crosses were x shaped I seem to recall not T shaped as in Christian tradition.
Why not ask those who reburied them? Does the museum photograph the bones before reburial?
Why did the documentary only compare Jesus and Mary Magdelan DNA why not the others such as Joseph and Mary?
Why was the tomb not visited by Christians in Early times as other Christian sites. It seems to show no signs of being visited. Wouldn't you expect a lot of graffiti, more than was shown and other evidence of veneration. Surely Christians knew where Jesus family tomb was located at the time.
Where is the tomb in relation to the old city?
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Name: Panluna •
Date: 05/21/07 17:43 |
A: Rob,
Constatine's wife was responsible for establishing the spiritual sites after Constatine legalized Christianity in 316 A.D..The search for the tomb has gone on for a long time.Look up Alphabets on Wikipedia and you will find the symbols.My metaphisical take is posted under the topic:Any Pagan/Wiccan Views?
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