Name:sam •
Title: was Jesus crucified? •
Date posted: 05/16/07 22:50
Q: Many questions came before:
- was the tomb found, the tomb of Jesus and His family?, (the general discussions)
- was Jesus married?, (the question came from JMD post, as a new topic.)
So, can we investigate the stories that came in the Gospels about His crucifixion to find the truth?., was He the one who been crucified or someone else?.
I would like to hear the others opinion.
Name:Ladyhawk •
Date: 05/16/07 23:58
A: Sam,
Assuming we aren't arguing belief itself here (being as we're meeting at a website dedicated to his tomb) is there any reason to suppose he wasn't crucified?
Name:Panluna •
Date: 05/17/07 2:07
A: Yes,Jesus was crucified.
Name:Shlomo •
Date: 05/17/07 3:50
A: Historical reality can only be made by comparing the sources according to principals of literary criticism and in conjunction with the study of Judaism of the time.
Name:JMD •
Date: 05/17/07 4:33
A: Exactly as Panluna said: "Yes, Jesus was crucified."
Name:sam •
Date: 05/17/07 14:04
A: Ladyhawk,
"Assuming we aren't arguing belief itself here (being as we're meeting at a website dedicated to his tomb) is there any reason to suppose he wasn't crucified? "
-------------------------
Yes, this site is dedicated to His tomb, but do not forget that the tomb is His family tomb where His mother and brothers and His son were buried, but finding Jesus family tomb after two thousand years raised many questions, the first, was He carried up into heaven ?(L24:51) that was the main belief until the discovery of the tomb. Second, was He married and had a child, because the belief at all times and before this discovery was otherwise.
So, do you think my question is out of place or not appropriate, while those questions raised by the others are the only valid ones?.
As for the reason "wasn't" or "why not" , it comes only from those who seek the truth, since we find some of the old thought which been taken as the whole truth been shattered or changed after this discovery. Finding the truth is no sin, but a sin when believing and accepting the faulse. Proving that Jesus was not crucified will not change the fact that Jesus is real and He is the Messenger of God and He is a great prophet, and God gave Him power none of the other prophet had before Him, and saying He wasn't crucified, is far better than putting Him under the humiliation of man.
Shlomo.
"Historical reality can only be made by comparing the sources according to principals of literary criticism "
------------------------
I agree with you. I think that comparing or in better words study and analyze the sources is the only way to find the truth, but it should be done in a neutral way. Because if it is done by those who believe and without a doubt in the crucifixion the result will come according to what they believe in, regardless to what the truth is.
Panluna & JMD,
"Yes, Jesus was crucified."
-------------------------------
You believe without doubt in that, but also you believed and with you are billions of people and without any doubt that Jesus was carried up into heaven and he wasn't married and had no son, but after the truth came by this discovery, every one pulled back and became not sure, and trying to find another way to explain their beliefs by saying that only Jesus spirit been carried up. That by itself will put Jesus in the same level as all the people of this earth,because all the souls/spirits will end in that way.
Read the stories of the Bible about Jesus and His many miracles, and then read the different stories about His crucifixion, and read about those who wrote the sories to know who are they, and if their words cannot be questioned, period, and then use the logic to separate the truth from the false. The things that been taught for a long time is very hard to change, and people in the past as the history tells us been forced to accept things and they cannot question the words of those who run the churches, and that was wrong from the biginnings, because then the people has no right and they are following blindly. Jesus said:
"A BLIND MAN CANNOT GUIDE A BLIND MAN, CAN HE? WILL THEY NOT BOTH FALL INTO A PIT".
God bless you.
Name:JMD •
Date: 05/17/07 14:13
A: I can only speak from personal experience, and the Christ Consciousness, let's say, is very real for me, and I have experienced moments of profound insight/gnosis, and I don't care what you or anyone else thinks, but I've felt Christ within me. He is very much alive in a spiritual sense.
In as few words as I can explain, the reason there are physical bodily appearances in the NT as well as spiritual bodily ones, is because it was so the church could 'pull rank' and claim that only those who saw Jesus in 'physical' resurrected form had any 'authority.' Because the thing is, after the crucifixion, death and spiritual resurrection of Jesus, there were many people having visions of Christ, even if they'd never met, nor heard of him. Well, the church, as we all know, does not accept that individuals can have personal Divine experiences on a one-to-one basis, and that's because they want to control others, and say they are needed - such as you can't get to Jesus except through the church. Just more propaganda so as to try to control others 'do as we say or else'.
But each to their own.
The Bible is full of errors. And myths are taken as 'fact.' There's various gods and goddesses disguised as real people in the Bible. Maybe I should write up a post about that, eh, ya' think?!
:D
Name:Ladyhawk •
Date: 05/17/07 14:49
A: Sam: Apologies if I appeared to be dismissing your question out of hand; I certainly wasn't, but apparently I expressed myself badly. I don't think the question is inappropriate; I just wanted to know what prompted it.
Basically I was going in the same direction Shlomo is: is there some text or other slippery slope in history that suggests we look at things differently?
Offhand, given the mythological proportions of Jesus' story, the crucifixion is probably the easiest part to believe. I gather it is in question also?
These days, historical truth is relative, by which I mean hard to find. The world has become Orwellian and every truth is subject to corporate and cultural interpretation, to clan loyalties, and to suspected Trilateral strategies.
I am not sure there is such a thing as pure truth anymore, but I endeavor to be respectful of the hearts that yearn for it.
Name:JMD •
Date: 05/18/07 0:56
A: Sorry I sort of snapped earlier, but I've already done research on this, and found all kinds of things, and it wasn't easy research for me. I will be staying out of this one from now on, though, so feel free to discuss however you wish -I won't come charging in no matter what is said.
Peace,
JMD
Name:sam •
Date: 05/18/07 15:07
A: Dear friends,
One thing I would like to make it clear, and that , "I am not a follower of any religion, that started when I was 15/16 years old, and I am now 69, and I am not going to change my position now, since the religious people* who make me get out of the religion circle/business still the same".
*All what I see around the world and from all sides, hate, war, killing, distruction. while they hide themselves under a big banner of love and peace and understanding!!!!!!!. No one really follow the commandment of God!!!!.
I believe in love and peace, and I believe in the Creator no matter what name people use for Him, and I belive in His messengers and the messages (but since the messages were written by men, adding their thoughts and opinions I have the right to question them), Also I respect and love all the good people who came with the message of love and peace (Buddha is a great philosopher and he brought many good things, but his follower did add to his message things which cannot be accepted to me as a believer in God, and that does not mean that i reject everything that come from him),
My work to find the truth is built solely on LOGIC, and my aim is to find the truth nothing else, and I understand very well that I will be responsible for everything, and I will be judged by God.
Ladyhawk, I do really respect you and the others, and our discussions in any subject will not change this fact.
As for, "I don't think the question is inappropriate; I just wanted to know what prompted it."
- Going back and reading some of the notes that I wrote in the past few years (hundreds of pages), I came upon those note: (wordperfect 12, I did not have a date, but i guess they are at least couple of years old.), at that time I was trying to collect Jesus miracles, and put them together, to understand them better, then to see what He said about His work)
FACTS ABOUT JESUS:
J- 4:47 So Jesus said to him, “Unless you people see signs and wonders, you simply will not believe.” 50 “Go, your son lives.” 51 “his son was living”
L- 7:21 At the very time He cured many people of diseases and afflictions and evil spirits; and He gave sight to many who were blind. 22 and He answered and said to them, “Go and report to John what you have seen and heard: the blind receive sight, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, THE DEAD ARE RAISED UP....
L- 24:31 Then their eyes were opened and they recognized Him; and HE VANISHED from their sight.
Mat- 17:2 And HE WAS TRANSFIGURED before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light.
THE DEAD ARE RAISED UP....HE VANISHED ....HE WAS TRANSFIGURED....cured many people of diseases and afflictions.
All those miracles were done in front of many of His followers and His apostles, and those are facts, but we should understand HIS WORDS when He said, “I CAN DO NOTHING ON MY OWN INITIATIVE” and “BUT THE WILL OF HIM WHO SENT ME.” Even His word is not His but, “THE WORD WHICH YOU HEAR IS NOT MINE, BUT THE FATHER’S (GOD) WHO SENT ME.”
So, "VANISHED" & "TRANSFIGURED" those two miracle and remembering something came in the Quran, "THEY DID NOT KILL HIM OR CRUCIFY HIM; BUT ANOTHER WAS MADE TO RESEMBLE HIM TO THEM", all that came to my mind at a moment and i desided to bring the question of the resurrection up.
Because if it is easy for him to vanish and transfigure Himself and to raise people after they are dead, then it is possible for Him to do what the Quran mentioned.
There are people who do not believe in the Quran, because they been told Not, but do not forget that there are those who do not believe in Jesus, even after witnessing all what He brought from miracles, because they been told not!!!.
The truth will never come unless people free themselves and look at thing from the logical point.
JMD,
You said, "I will be staying out of this one from now on, though, so feel free to discuss however you wish -I won't come charging in no matter what is said. "
The moment I read this, I felt bad, because just before few lines I was happy when I read this, "Maybe I should write up a post about that, eh, ya' think?!"
JMD, You should write whatever you feel is right, and as for me i will be waiting to read your opinion, and findings from your research (I've already done research on this, and found all kinds of things), because it is an important one for me and for the others too. You are more knowledgable than me, and I am learning a lot from you as well as from the others.
After I brought the question of the resurrection, I started doing more research about it and I will bring it when done.
love you all, and God bless you.
Name:Ladyhawk •
Date: 05/18/07 17:53
A: JMD: I agree with Sam. You should share your experience and research. That way the two of you can create a dialogue and/or a debate for the rest of us. I'm not a researcher so all I can do is read what's offered and think it through with what common sense I hope I've got.
As for me personally, I want to know what's behind the idea that Jesus wasn't crucified. Sounds like the backstory of a conspiracy to me--has one been uncovered in some line of inquiry?
Name:sam •
Date: 05/19/07 21:39
A: Dears Ladyhawk, JMD,
My research which I am bringing here comes from many hours of reading and reading to those parts of the Gospels that presents the stories of the Last day of Jesus. And I do not claim that I am right, even when I did give an opinion about what I read, I might be wrong, Hopping that you correct me if that is the case.
Hopping that you answer my questions.
---------------------------------------
Here- are the facts about Jesus:
J- 4:47 So Jesus said to him, “Unless you people see signs and wonders, you simply will not believe.” 50 “Go, your son lives.” 51 “his son was living”
L- 7:21 At the very time He cured many people of diseases and afflictions and evil spirits; and He gave sight to many who were blind. 22 and He answered and said to them, “Go and report to John what you have seen and heard: the blind receive sight, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, THE DEAD ARE RAISED UP....
L- 24:31 Then their eyes were opened and they recognized Him; and HE VANISHED from their sight.
Mat- 17:2 And HE WAS TRANSFIGURED before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light.
THE DEAD ARE RAISED UP....HE VANISHED ....HE WAS TRANSFIGURED ,
All those miracles were done in front of many of His followers and His apostles, and those are facts, but we should understand HIS WORDS when He said, “I CAN DO NOTHING ON MY OWN INITIATIVE” and “BUT THE WILL OF HIM WHO SENT ME.” Even His word is not His but, “THE WORD WHICH YOU HEAR IS NOT MINE, BUT THE FATHER’S (GOD) WHO SENT ME.”
You should remember those facts while reading the verses that been mentioned about Jesus last hours as taken from the NT.
For nearly 2000 years the story of the Apostle Judas who betrayed Jesus for 30 silvers, been accepted with no doubt, and he was the most hated man by the Christians, that is until the recent discovery of the gospel which was written by his supporters, which showed that he is the most loved and trusted one among the other eleven. But the churches and its followers refuse to accept anything that might effect on their old ways of teaching, it is a sort of honor for them, and they do not want to change, and any change might bring negative result, and might lead some to start digging for the truth as we see it now.
After the disappearance (Crucifixion) of Jesus, the story came to tell us that Judas committed suicide, and they gave their own reason, but no witness , did anyone think that he might be hanged by some who thought wrong about him, or hated him for other reasons, and those might destroyed all his possessions including his work and writing?.do anyone thought about the possibility that Jesus told him about His secrets and what is to happen if been caught by the Romans?.
The story tell us that Jesus was led by the Roman soldiers and surrounded by a crowd of people who hated Him, and I don’t think any of His followers among them, but maybe some came for curiosity, but kept watching from a distance. And when Jesus and two others were on the cross the were surrounded by the same noisy crowd:
“There were also SOME WOMEN looking on FROM A DISTANCE, among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the Less and Joses, and Salome.”MK.. 15:40
“But STANDING BY THE CROSS, of Jesus were His Mother, and His mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.”J- 19:25
From a distance....standing by the cross ?
“A JAR OF SOUR WINE WAS STANDING THERE.... J-19:29 (in a place called the Skull)?
Here we have stories, told by three different witnesses:
1- Jesus said , “It is finished ” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit. J- 19:30
2- Jesus , CRYING OUT WITH A LOUD VOICE, said, “Father into Your hand I commit My spirit.” Having said this, He breathed His last. L-23:46
3- Jesus, cried out with a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, Lama sabachthani?, translated. “My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?. MK- 15:34
- Which one is true?
John said,
“And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and “he knows that he is telling the truth*”....J-19:35 (Here John saying, I trust him because he knows that he is telling the truth, but he did not tell who is witness )
“This is the disciple* who is testifying to these things and wrote this things, and we know that his testimony is true.” J-21:24 (* A disciple with no name .why?, because the one who told him is not the disciple, but someone else )
- when we see differences for the same story that means one it could be right, and the others not telling the truth, and they are making up stories?. But when we come to end of John Gospel we read this:
John- 21:25 And there are also many other things WHICH JESUS DID, WHICH IF THEY WERE WRITTEN IN DETAIL, I suppose that EVEN THE WORLD ITSELF WOULD NOT CONTAIN THE BOOKS THAT WOULD BE WRITTEN.
-The facts . Jesus spent less than three years in His mission. In the 2000 year since then billions of people are non stop writing, and they have more pens & papers, and they have more stories to tell but with all that the world is not full yet with books. John when claiming that shows himself that he is no different than the others who lived back then, who create unlogical stories, the Bible full of such stories. At that time people look at the person greatness from the points of his talk and what stories he brings, the logic hardly used.
The story goes on to tell us”
J- 20:1 Now on the first day of the week MARY MAGDALENE CAME EARLY TO THE TOMB, while it was still dark, and SAW THE STONE ALREADY TAKEN AWAY from the tomb.
- 2 So she ran and came to SIMON PETER and the other disciple....
L- 24:1 ..........”THEY CAME” TO THE TOMB bringing the spices.....
:2 ..they found the stone rolled away....
:3- they entered .....:4 - TWO MEN suddenly stood near them in DAZZLING clothing.
MK- 16:1 ...Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome...
:2/3 ....THEY CAME TO THE TOMB....they were saying to one another “WHO WILL ROLL AWAY THE STONE for us...
:4 LOOKING UP, they saw that stone had been rolled
:5 Entering the tomb, they saw a YONG MAN sitting at the right, wearing a white robe; and they were AMAZED .
MAT- 27:50 Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.
:51 ......the earth shook and rocks were split.
:52 the tombs were opened, and MANY BODIES OF THE “SAINTS” who had fallen asleep WERE RAISED , (this story cannot be true. No one witnessed these things)
:53 ....THEY ENTERED THE HOLY CITY, and appeared to many. (There is not even one name of those who seen them)
MAT- 28:1 ...the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to look at the grave.
:2 And behold, A SEVERE EARTHQUAKE had occurred, for AN ANGEL OF THE LORD DESCENDED FROM HEAVEN and came and ROLLED AWAY THE STONE AND SAT UPON IT . (This is not a true story. Never been mentioned by the others)
:5 THE ANGEL SAID TO THE WOMEN “DO NOT BE AFRAID.....
A- AT THE TOMB:
J- 20:1 Mary Magdalene was ALONE.
L- 24:1 THEY CAME ... (that is more than one).
MK-16:1 Mary Magdalene, and the mother of James and Salom.
MT- 28:1 Mary Magdalene and the other Mary ( He doesn’t know exactly who is the other..)
Question-1: which one is telling the truth?.
B- THE STONE:
J- 21:1 The stone already taken away.
L-24:1 They found the stone rolled away.
MK-16:4 They saw the stone had been rolled.
MT- 28:2 AN ANGEL,,,,, ROLLED AWAY THE STONE AND SAT UPON IT .
Question-2 : Which one is telling the truth?.
C- THE ANGELS:
Matthew, ONE ANGEL sitting upon the stone (for sure that mean OUTSIDE the tomb)
(The angel seen by THE WOMEN)
Mark, ONE MAN (ANGEL), INSIDE, sitting at the right.... (AMAZED )
(The angel seen by, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome.)
Luke, TWO MEN (ANGELS), INSIDE, ..... (DAZZLING !!! )
(The angels seen by, THE WOMEN)
John, TWO ANGELS, INSIDE,....one at the head and one at the feet, where Jesus the body of Jesus had been lying.
(The angels seen by Mary Magdalene only (J-20:11), after the disciples went away to their own homes (J-20:10)
Question-3 : Which one is telling the truth?.
D- THE APPEARANCE:
Matthew, 28: Mary Magdalene and the other Mary....Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet AND WORSHIPED HIM.
Mark, 16: ... He first appeared to Mary Magdalene...She went and reported....
Luke, 24: .... Two of them.... while they were talking and discussing, JESUS HIMSELF approached and began traveling with them.... BUT THEIR EYES WERE PREVENTED FROM RECOGNIZING HIM....Then their eyes were opened and THEY RECOGNIZED HIM; ans HE VANISHED FROM THEIR SIGHT.
Jesus said, “See My hands and My feet, THAT IS MYSELF; touch Me and see, FOR A SPIRIT DOES NOT HAVE FLESH NAD BONES as you see that I have.”
John, 20: She (Mary Magdalene) turned around and SAW JESUS standing there, and DID NOT KNOW THAT IT WAS JESUS!!!.
Jesus said to her, “stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, “I ASCEND TO MY FATHER AND YOUR FATHER, AND MY GOD AND YOUR GOD.....and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, JESUS CAME AND STOOD IN THEIR MIDST...He showed them both His hands and His side. The disciples then rejoiced....
Therefore many OTHER SIGNS JESUS ALSO PERFORMED IN THE PRESENCE OF THE DISCIPLES, WHICH ARE NOT WRITTEN IN THIS BOOK...Jesus is the Christ, the son of God...
(Son of man or the son of God, which one is right?.)
Questions: 1- Did those people who wrote these stories understand the first commandment of God, “YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME.”
2- When they say that Mary Magdalene and the other Mary, “WORSHIPED HIM”, and, Thomas said “My Lord and My God”. Is that against the commandment of God and against Jesus word when He said,”NO ONE IS GOOD EXCEPT GOD ALONE....THE ONE AND ONLY GOD...THE SON OF MAN //THAT I AM HE....NOR THE ONE WHO IS SENT (JESUS) GREATER THAN THE ONE WHO SENT HIM (GOD)?.
3- WAS JESUS CRUCIFIED?.
Before answering this question, let us look at the power that God gave Jesus, (I can do nothing on My own initiative- so it is God power), the power that no one had before Him or after Him.
RAISING THE DEAD... VANISHING...TRANSFIGURED HIMSELF....CONTROL THE FISH IN THE SEA...TURNING A CLAY INTO A LIVING BIRD...STANDING AND WALKING WITH HIS DISCIPLES AND THEY DO NOT RECOGNIZE HIM, AND THE COUNTLESS OF OTHER MIRACLES.
A- It is possible that He might vanished when surrounded by His enemies?,
B- It is possible that God sent an angel to replace Him, or Jesus Himself created one that looks like Him?, (it happen before)
C- If the story about seeing Mary Magdalene first and alone is correct, Is that means that He showed Himself to the one who worried about Him most (specially if she is His wife and had a son), and the chosen one whom He trusted to keep His secrets?.
D- “See My hands and My feet, THAT IS MYSELF; touch Me and see, FOR A SPIRIT DOES NOT HAVE FLESH NAD BONES as you see that I have.” Is that show the truth that He is among them In flesh, and nothing happen to Him, there are no scars to show that He was harmed or crucified?.
Before centuries ago, most of the books which hold the truth been burned, even those belong to the disciples!!!. And the books which were written by the four (Mark & Luke never met Jesus and they are the students of Paul) are influenced by Paul teaching and his ideas.
Now and after 2000 years many discoveries came, and because the truth will never die, things started slowly to become clearer, specially because we live now in the age of freedom, and that we can look at things and discuss it without been afraid from those who rules and makes the rules.
After all the late discoveries, people started to question the unquestionable, and many in doubt about what the truth is. But the truth is there if you look for it you will find it.
“SEEK, AND YOU WILL FIND” This is the truth.
Name:JMD •
Date: 05/20/07 7:01
A: "Jesus said, 'He who is near me is near the fire, and he who is far from me is far from the Kingdom.' "
"His disciples said to him, 'When will the repose of the dead come about, and when will the new world come?'
He said to them, 'What you look forward to has already come, but you do not recognize it.' "
"Jesus said, 'Whoever has come to understand the world has found (only) a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world.' "
"He said to them, 'You have omitted the one living in your presence and have spoken [only] of the dead."
"Jesus said, 'Take heed of the living one while you are alive, lest you die and seek to see him and be unable to do so.' "
"Jesus said, 'Many are standing at the door, but it is the solitary who will enter the bridal chamber.' "
Name:sam •
Date: 05/20/07 14:13
A: JMD,
Jesus word is the truth and I never doubt it that, but what you brought is not an answer to my question, "was Jesus crucified", and the proof that I came with after, to prove my point of view.
If you are confused and you cannot give the right answer, say so, but do not hide behind Jesus word, as those who hide behind Paul's word when deffending their claims as Jesus is God.
You wrote (05/17/07) this:
"The Bible is full of errors. And myths are taken as 'fact.'"
-------- You know this fact, but did you ever try to find out those errors and myths?and bring them up so the blind people out there can see the truth, or you are worried about that the churches might loose by doing that, so you sacrifice the truth for the sake of the churches?.
My work is to put the light on, so the people can use the logic to differentiate between the right and the wrong.
Today at 2:28 you wrote this:
"Nothing is hidden that will not be made known, or secret that will not come to light."
------------------That is 100% right, and goes side by side with what I am working on. I want to bring the truth (as the Bible full with errors) so nothing can be hidden and kept secret. The fact that The early churches and its people done a lot to HYDE the truth, and their followers today are following their steps, AND THEY HYDE behind the word of Jesus by using them to what it suit them, and to run away from the fact and the reality.
"What I tell you in the dark, speak in the light. And what you hear as a whisper, proclaim on the housetops."
------------------We hear today a lot of whispers. About the churches and about the discovered gospels and about Jesus tomb and His marriage and His son etc., and it is the people responsibility to proclaim things in loud voice (on the hosetops), because nothing is worse than hiding the truth, or whisper about it.
I would like to recieve your answer for my post of (05-18-07) that is if you really care about the truth.
God bless you.
Name:JMD •
Date: 05/21/07 23:03
A: sam - those quotes are from 'Gospel of Thomas' which have 'roots' that go right back to the days of Jesus - the Q source, the sayings of Jesus. I don't see that as hiding anything.
Furthermore, I've done tons and tons of research, -I was on the verge of becoming agnostic after the Bible - esp the OT began falling apart. -that's when the Higher God broke through, you could say, and the Nag Hammadi (amongst other things) saved my spiritual sorry butt.
But whyever should I spend hours and hours to teach you? Don't be so lazy. God doesn't like those who are lazy and want quick answers from others all the time. After all, this ain't no paid gig for me, honey pie. I ain't THAT much of a sucker! heh.
-JMD
Name:sam •
Date: 05/22/07 16:52
A: JMD,
You said:
A- But whyever should I spend hours and hours to teach you? Don't be so lazy. (not the truth)
----------I did a lot of research before bringing my question, and I belive my findings about the question of "WAS JESUS CRUCIFIED",is correct because I supported my work with the stories that came in the gospels, and and tried to analize them in a logical way.and I am not lazy.
Your claim that I am lazy is completey wrong, and I can see from your word what kind of a person you are. {what comes from the mouth defiles the man}.
God doesn't like those who are lazy and want quick answers from others all the time. After all, this ain't no paid gig for me, honey pie. I ain't THAT much of a sucker! heh. (hate)
----------God want people to speak the truth, and to be honest, and not to hate, and to love each other, and God want people lo look for the truth [seek and you will find].
Looking for the truth is not a sin, but saying this,"After all, this ain't no paid gig for me, honey pie. I ain't THAT much of a sucker! heh" is for sure a sin.
I hope one day you will understand Jesus and His message.
God bless you.
Name:sam •
Date: 05/22/07 17:47
A: JMD,
You did not answer my finding that "Jesus was not crucified", because you are not sure that he was really crucified, and the discovery of the gospel of Judas and the others gospels, and the tomb of Jesus all those put doubt about many things that you been taught in the past.
Jesus believed in God, and God supported Him all the time and gave Him power beyound any imagination. God will not let His enemies (the Jews & the Romans) to humiliate Him in the way that came in those stories, and make Him suffer then kill Him. Those stories are sort of disrespect to Jesus and God. And it is disrespect to Jesus, when they make statue of some figure and a cross and hang Him on their neck!!!.
About your research, if you bring it, for curiosity, I will read it, just to know more about you and your thoughts and not about the research itself.
The research is as good as the researcher, but if the researcher use this kind of laguage, { this ain't no paid gig for me, honey pie. I ain't THAT much of a sucker! heh.}, then the quality of the research, and the result of it is somehow questionable.
After what I said, you might come and reject my finding about Jesus crucifiction. But you think that is really matters now?, because your answer then is built upon hate and not LOGIC.
God bless you.
Name:Not Dattaswami •
Date: 05/23/07 3:49
A: .
Name:Not Dattaswami •
Date: 05/30/07 0:24
A: ..
Name:JMD •
Date: 05/30/07 9:13
A: People ask for the road
to Cold Mountain
but no road reaches
Cold Mountain
Summer sky -
still ice won't melt
the Sun comes out
but gets obscured by the mist
Imitating me
where does that get you?
My mind isn't like yours
when your mind
is like mine
you can enter here
-Hanshan
Name:sam •
Date: 05/30/07 13:43
A: JMD,
You brought to this forum this question, "was Jesus married?", And I did give my HONEST answer, and suppoted it with what came in the Gospels, an answer to your question.
But when I brought similar question, which it says, " was Jesus crucified?", You did not have the courage to answer it honestly, but instead, you did bring some verses from Tomas Gospel which has no relation to my question, then you try to show the smartness of you by writing a poem from someone else.
FROM THOMAS TO HANSHAN.
JMD, Here the title again. "was Jesus crucified? ".
This forum was provided to us as a service, and a way to bring our thoughts and discuss subjects in a good and honest way , and we should be thankful, and we should respect the place that we are in and respect the people who joined in, and not to try make it a place for mockery.
JMD, remeber that we all here in this forums to learn from each other, and not waste the time by going in every direction when discussing things.
When using "Not Dattaswami " again and again is not fair, and even is disrespectful for the person who try to bring his word to this forum, and it is sort of disrespect to the forum itself. If you do not accept what he said then say so by facing him with your word and your point of view.
I do not agree with him, but I do respect him. I do not like his philosophy, but I do not hate him because of it. Let us be brothers and sister in this world and respect each other.
THE DRESSES WE PUT ON ARE FROM DIFFERENT COLOURS, BUT OUR SOULS ARE THE SAME.
God bless you.
those quotes are from 'Gospel of Thomas'
Name:sam •
Date: 05/30/07 13:51
A: JMD,
I apologize, for my mistake when I quoted this: "those quotes are from 'Gospel of Thomas"
I missed three letters. Her the corrections:
"those quotes ARE NOT from 'Gospel of Thomas"
Name:CanuckChick •
Date: 05/30/07 15:29
A: Sam:
Dattaswami has shown a marked lack of respect for the other posters on this forum by attempting to take over this message board.
His many long, rambling, condescending posts wherein he makes outrageous claims of lordship tend to alienate those posters interested in an exchange of new ideas, and do not care to be preached at.
I'm all for "different strokes for different folks", but most people do not enjoy having another's viewpoint crammed down their throat. It's amazing what some people are able to get away with under the banner of "freedom of speech".
I view him as a pontificating ass, not worthy of respect, as he has shown the other posters none, by spamming this board. JMD - you go girl!
Respect begets respect.
CC
Name:sam •
Date: 05/31/07 14:50
A: CanuckChick,
"Dattaswami has shown a marked lack of respect for the other posters on this forum by attempting to take over this message board."
---------- You are right about dattaswami, but do you think it is better instead of using the term "Not Dattaswami " repeatedly, and then using it twice after my post as if you put my work which is built on logical analysis as the same of dattaswami work with is built on philosophy and myths. It serves no perpose, and everyone should stand up and face him and tell him the truth of what you think of him (what goes for him it goes for everyone else). If we, and I mean, you and me and the others who get fed up with his stupid philosophy which filled with lies and myths to tell him that, and not bu throwing word which has no meanings.
If you go back and read my posts answering him you will find hat i been doing that all the time, Here some:
-they criticize your idol , because you went too far from reality .
- your believe is no more than a philosophy which created unlogical ideas,
-your claims in your philosophical beliefs cannot be accepted logically and they are wrong.
- So, please do not make Jesus a liar, just to bring you belief and the ones you believe in and make things equal to Jesus and His message.
I hope the others (Panluna & JMD) understand what your plans are, from this post and the many others that you open in one day.
And in one day, he throw at me 3 of his long ansers/ posts:
05-20-07 (2:57---2:59---2:59) , that was under the title "God (holuspirit) and human incarnation"
I another post I told someone (?) , that "I do not think that this guy can understand what we are saying ".
The truth that dattaswami is a pain everywhere (N&A), also I do not think if he read this message he give a damn about it because he is not interrested in what the others think!!!, and he is carrying and caring about his (S&L) philosophy only.
CanuckChick, I think you feel better now ?.
I view him as a pontificating ass, not worthy of respect.
---------As for me, I have the same view, and I view those who repeat "not dattaswami" whithout saying anything else that they are from the same qualities and mentalities as him, one word or hundreds makes no differnce. One out of his mind and the other is coward to sign his name!!!.
I am open minded and accept if the others correct me if I am wrong. I use science and logic and I hope the others do the same.
God bless you.
Name:CanuckChick •
Date: 05/31/07 16:40
A: Sam: This fellow just craves attention. I think that answering his posts encourages him to keep up his nonsense. The "Not Dattaswami" thing has served the purpose of sending his posts to the bottom. Fair play, if you ask me.
If someone is sincerely interested in his philosophy, they are free to visit his website, without torturing the rest of us.
Again, it's not his message in particular that I find annoying - it's his method of delivering it.
Personally, I'd be more than willing to interact with him if he learned some manners.
Name:sam •
Date: 06/01/07 16:19
A: CanuckChick ,
You are right, but there are few who encourage him by reading and answering his post, and that is what he wanted, and that is the reason for him to keep going on. As for me , for sometimes I stopped reading his post, I ignore his post completely. I do not read it , because I might be hooked to answer him back when he brings lies about Islam or Christianity, specially about Jesus, I thought it is better lo let him bark and bark as much as he like.
CanuckChick, If you look at his post "Knowledge-clearer...05-24-07"
It was read and answered by: Todd-JMD-CanuchChick-Panluna-Ladyhawk and MAriAnna72.
I did not read his post but I read all the others, and my answer never went to dattaswami post, but to : Tedd- Panluna- JMD- and the last one was in 05-31-07 to you, CanuckChick.
You will notice that I did ignore dattaswami post when answering MAriAnna72 at the same day.
Saying, "The "Not Dattaswami" thing has served the purpose of sending his posts to the bottom". That is wrong, because we did not see any result by using it and because while you keep answering him back he will keep coming, and when some use that term, "Not Dattaswami" for the others that is wrong and does not do any good.
In my opinion, if you and the others stop reading his posts and answer them is the only solution. WHAT YOU THINK?
Some interesting data of posts lunched with NEW TITLES on this forums from 03-24-07 to 06-01-07 (I might missed couple), this is just to give an idea and no more.
Total ---- 84
contributed by ---- 19 people.
dattaswami - 48 (23 came between 05-19 & 05-20 "two days") and the first one under the title "the good and bad...", and all has nothing to do with the topic of this forum, which is about Jesus!, but a presentation to his own philosophy. We all know that.
CanuckChick - 1
Todd - 1
JMD - 7
MAriAnna72- 5
Panluna - 1
Shlomo - 5 (the other 11 contributed 14 posts)
sam - 2
My first post came on 05-16-07 "was Jesus crucified?" , and that is a part of the general discussion about Jesus.
My second came on 05-20-07 "Philosophy of dattaswami " that was ouside the topic, but I thought it was necessary, and here is my message to him:
dattaswami, "NO NEED FOR YOU TO OPEN NEW TOPIC EVERY TIME YOU COME TO THIS FORUMS.
The philosophy that you want to preach and spread will be better understood if you keep it as much as possible focused on a certain subject, so people can read and understand and give their thoughts and opinion about it before moving to the next one.
There is no need to rush thing. Are you going to bring all your religion and its teaching in few days, and do not leave room for the other to question it ?.
If that is the case , and that is what you plan, then I can say that your philosophy is wrong, just by understanding the way that you bring it.
DO NOT FORGET TO USE THE LOGIC."
Have a wonderful day. God bless you.
Name:CanuckChick •
Date: 06/01/07 16:53
A: Sam: "In my opinion, if you and the others stop reading his posts and answer them is the only solution. WHAT YOU THINK?"
I think you're right.
Name:JMD •
Date: 06/02/07 2:13
A: Thanks, CC, for what you said. :D
Sam, just to note, as an individual it's my decision, not anyone else's, what I will or won't discuss on this board. Some matters are just too... complex? deep? mysterious? If you want truth then get to 'know thyself' instead of asking so many questions which often just causes confusion. Go quiet, and go within. In any case, don't look to me for answers. And if you don't know yourself, I certainly don't. I'm a mystic, so I'm biased; so I think it's better that the professional biblical scholars give their viewpoints as regards the resurrection; I don't need to know all the so-called 'facts' or 'hidden mysteries' of how it all did or didn't happen... I just know for myself that it did, and that's all I personally need to know!
The Jesus Dynasty Blog
May 30, 2007
Jerusalem Bound
Filed under: Jesus Dynasty News — James Tabor @ 10:37 pm
I fly to Jerusalem tomorrow for some preliminary excavation work on Mt. Zion (see http:digmountzion.com) with Dr. Shimon Gibson and a team of our students and staff. I will be posting some things next week about our work in that area and what it tells us about Herodian Jerualem and the last days of Jesus. I am working on what I hope will become some significant new insights on the accounts of the “empty tomb” in our four New Testament Gospels, as well as the Gospel of Peter. In thinking through these materials in the light of the Talpiot tomb several “lights” have gone on in my thinking. I have studied and pondered the “resurrection” accounts for several decades but what I am going to suggest, as far as I know, has not been proposed before."
Hurray! :D
Name:sam •
Date: 06/03/07 22:35
A: JMD,
You said, "Sam, just to note, as an individual it's my decision, not anyone else's, what I will or won't discuss on this board."
This is the second time you use this line answering me, I wonder why?, and what is the reason?. Did I ever force anyone to accept my opinion or not question it?.
From my previous posts:
1- "I am open minded and accept if the others correct me if I am wrong. I use science and logic and I hope the others do the same."
2- JMD, You said, "I will be staying out of this one from now on, though, so feel free to discuss however you wish -I won't come charging in no matter what is said. "
And that was my answer to you, do you remember it ?, it was before few posts (05-18-07)
"The moment I read this, I felt bad, because just before few lines I was happy when I read this, "Maybe I should write up a post about that, eh, ya' think?!"
JMD, You should write whatever you feel is right, and as for me i will be waiting to read your opinion, and findings from your research (I've already done research on this, and found all kinds of things), because it is an important one for me and for the others too. You are more knowledgable than me, and I am learning a lot from you as well as from the others."
Do you see that I am forcing you or the others, when I said : "I am learning a lot from you & and you are more knowledgable than me?"
JMD, If you read my post (05-18-07) answering CanuckChick, you will find in third paragraph this quotation:
"In my opinion, if you and the others stop reading his posts and answer them is the only solution. WHAT YOU THINK?"
(you should understand that I am asking CC opinion and not forcing he)
And then came her answer to me:
CanuckChick • Date: 06/01/07 12:53
A: Sam: "In my opinion, if you and the others stop reading his posts and answer them is the only solution. WHAT YOU THINK?"
I think you're right.
SO CC AGREE TO WHAT I SAID. and it was my opinion in the first place.
.................-...................
Afte-r- that you came in to thank CC for what she said: (thinking that was CC opinion)
Name: JMD • Date: 06/01/07 22:13
A: Thanks, CC, for what you said. D.
SO YOU AGREE BECAUSE YOU THOUGHT THAT WAS CC OPINION, AND YOU THANK HER FOR IT !!!, BUT IF IF YOU UNDERSTAN THAT IT WAS MINE THEN YOU WILL NOT AGREE TO IT!!!?.
JMD , after thanking CC for the thing that she did not write in the first place, you came to attack me by claiming things that you just imagine in your head, and what you said to me here, "just to note, as an individual it's my decision, not anyone else's, what I will or won't discuss on this board." is the reflection of your personality.
JMD, TRY TO BE FAIR, AND USE THE LOGIC TO UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU READ BEFORE ANSWERING AND JUDGING THE OTHERS.
In my heart, I have a total respect and love and appreciation, to all, and not agreeing whith dattaswami on his way, it does not mean that i have different feelings towards him. We are all brothers and sisters in humanity, if we agree on things or not, that will not change this fact. We should open our heart and mind and try to do the right thing.
